Hour. Ali velshi is here. That would be wild if there wasnt a mention of emoluments in the konsz constitution. Even without it. If you look at the way business operates, the way we operate, the way politics operates, you protect against seeming like seeming like. For your own pocket. Even if the impression is there you protect against that. This was the danger when people didnt take the emoluments clause seriously when we discussed it. It becomes more and more on normal. We started discussing it the way he was inaugurated, talking about the trump d. C. Hotel and it has been a consistent issue ever few months since then. New stories arise, does donald trump, is he working for himself, is he working for the American Public, his golf course in scotland the blind trust thats not blind. The air force stopping and staying inviting everybody from the
g7. They say they vetted a number of other properties. David was trying to figure out if they did, calling the other Properties Around the country. This needles at us, this is not a resol sved issue. We have a lot of people during the hand offs. One day well let everyone in the room to show how Much Movement there is in the last 60 seconds. Good to see you. The most graphic evidence yet that the president of the United States has betrayed his oath of office. Here is how adam schiff described it. The whistleblower wrote i have received information from multiple u. S. Government officials that the president of the United States is using the power of his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 election. It also reads the president s personal lawyer, mr. Rudolph
giuliani is a central figure in the effort. Attorney general bill barr appears to be involved as well. One of the whistleblowers biggest allegations is the white house tried to hide the records of the phone call between trump and zelensky. The whistleblower wrote, white house officials told me that they were directed by white house lawyers to remove the electronic transcripts from the Computer System in which such transcripts are typically stored. Instead the transcript was loaded into a separate Electronic System used to handle classified information of a sensitive nature. According to white house officials i spoke with, this was not the first time under this administration that a president ial transcript was placed into this codeword level system solely for the purpose of protecting politically sensitive rather than National Security sensitive information. The complaint goes on to say that multiple u. S. Officials
told me ukrainian leadership was led to believe that a phone call between the president and president zelensky would depend on Whether Zelensky showed willingness to play ball on issues aired by mr. Giuliani. Thats about mr. Giuliani and a former top prosecutor that joe bidens son hunter was involved in corruption when he served on a board of a ukrainian gas company. The complaint was made public just before the acting director of National Intelligence, Joseph Maguire, appearing before a House Intelligence Committee where he faced tough questions about his handling of the complaint. You were not directed to withhold the complaint is that your testimony . Yes, that is absolutely true. So you exercised your discretion to withhold the complaint from the committee . I did not. What i did is i delayed it because it did not meet the
statutory definition of urgent concern. Why would you then as your first action outside of the Intelligence Community go directly to the white house to the very entity that was being scrutinized and complained about in the complaint why would you go there to ask their advice as to what you should do . Congresswoman, the allegation that is made by the whistleblower is secondhand information. Not known to him or her firsthand. Did you discuss this subject, this whistleblower complaint with the president . You can say, i did not discuss it with him, if thats the answer. That doesnt betray any privilege. And you can say i did discuss it with him but im not going to get into the content of those conversations. That question you can answer. Chairman schiff, once again, you know, my conversation no matter what the subject is with the president of the United States is privileged conversation between the
director of National Intelligence and the president. Do i have your assurance that the whistleblower will be able to testify fully and freely and enjoy the protections of the law . Yes, congressman. Lawmakers had this to say about what we learned today. We are profoundly concerned with the breakdown of this whistleblower system. That has been manifest over the last month. That a whistleblower who was deemed credible, had a complaint that was deemed urgent that a complaint that was intended to come to congress would be withheld to congress and would do so on the basis would be withheld on the basis of advice given by the subject or subjects of that complaint. I think what the dni did was broke the law. The law is very clear. The dni shall convey the complaint to the Intelligence Committees. Not the whole congress, to the Intelligence Committee. Carefully balanced to protect the our intelligence and to protect the whistleblower. Lets go to capitol hill to tom mall ski, hes a member of the committees subcommittee on oversight and investigations, served as Assistant Secretary Of State for democracy, human rights and labor. Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for being here. One of the things we heard in the conversation between Committee Chair adam schiff and the director of National Intelligence is will this whistleblower be able to come forward and enjoy the protections afforded them under the law. The president is reported to have told a number of staffers at the United States mission to the United States a couple hours ago that the people who informed the whistleblower are, quote, close to spies, and you know how we used to deal with spies in the old days. The implication is he used the word treasonous, the implication
is whistleblowers, people concerned about the conduct of the president of the United States are treasonous. Its very revealing, because what it shows is that, once again, the president defines treason as a betrayal of him personally. Rather than betrayal of the country. He doesnt understand the difference between himself and his country. And thats at the heart of this problem that he has sub board nated our Foreign Policy, the defense of our National Security to his own personal, political interest. He expects every government in the world to serve his interests rather than demanding they do whats in the American National interest. I want to speak about the American National interest for a moment. You tweeted yesterday about the allegations about joe biden and the ukrainian prosecutor, you wrote i was Assistant Secretary Of State when this happened, All Of Us Working On Ukraine wanted
this prosecutor gone because he was not Prosecuting Corruption, so did the europeans and the imf. It did not come from joe biden, he just delivered our message. Give me the context, you were there. Whats the context around this . Because there is spinning going on about what joe biden was involved in with respect to this former prosecutor . The context very simply was that ukraine needed loans from the International Community, the imf, the International Monetary fund, was supporting the ukrainian committee, we were providing Loan Guarantees and it was clearly spelled out to the ukrainians that a condition for that assistance was they had to improve their fight against corruption. They had to reform the prosecutors office, the prosecutor was supposed to be Prosecuting Corruption and by late 2015 it was clear to us that this Chief Prosecutor in
cr ukraine was not bringing cases against anyone, ironically not even this company that joe bidens son was involved in. So the State Department told the ukrainians you got to have a new prosecutor, our embassy told them that, the European Union told them that, the president of france, germany told them that, the International Monetary fund and its president told them that. The European Bank for reconstruction and development told them that. And among many other senior people sent to deliver the message was Vice President biden. So maybe donald trump thinks that the entire world was engaged in a conspiracy to somehow protect joe bidens son but thats crazy. This was european policy, the policy of the International Community and was the right thing to do. Congressman, in stating reasons for why the congressionally approved again subsequent to all of this by the way, a lot of funding i
went to ukraine and donald trump said part of it is he wanted to put a hold on the funding because other governments should do more, europe should do more, europe funds much more than the United States does on these fronts . Absolutely. Im always for our allies doing more and more, but theres no question that ukraine is getting a lot of support from the European Union and a lot of other international institutions. Its clearly not why our military aid to ukraine was suspended at a moment when russia was attacking ukraine. All of the evidence points to one conclusion and that is this was done as part of an effort to give Rudy Giuliani leverage to get the dirt on the Vice President former Vice President. Tom malinowski good to talk to you again. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell joins us now from the white house. Kelly, the president s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani is
responding to the whistleblower complaint. Hes obviously not a white house response, and i think thats the important thing to be clear about here because people might be unclear as to why Rudy Giuliani was doing work for the State Department in ukraine, hes not a government employee, hes Donald Trumps personal lawyer, but whats the response from him anyway . Reporter well, Rudy Giuliani is embroiled in this as almost an emissary for the president , yet as you point out he is not a government employee, he is not a State Department employee, he is the personal lawyer of the president. And it was unclear at the time these events were happening that he was even tasked with anything related to doing an investigation of matters related to ukraine or the bidens. Thats all now coming to the surface. And Rudy Giuliani is attacking the claims within the whistleblower complaint. Hes going right at the heart of that, saying that the whistleblower was providing hearsay evidence, as if that
would not be admissible in a court of law, he lays that out in a series of tweets and in a conversation with our colleague, kristen welker, saying that somehow would not be admissible. Certainly in a state court of law that might be a standard you might apply. Thats not what were talking about here, the whistleblower is someone from the Intelligence Community who through his or her work was able to obtain information about this with a presumed level of expertise, according to what weve learned today, and presented this information, and its to be evaluated. So giuliani is attacking the person who brought forward the complaint much like the president has. We also heard from President Trump whos back at the white house after a morning of planned fundraising that was tacked onto the end of his United Nations visit and the president talked about the democrats who are dealing with this potential impeachment and the investigation today, and talking about those who are putting this forward saying dont look at
what i did, look at what others have done. Heres what the president had to say. Its another witch hunt, here we go again. Its adam schiff and his crew making up stories and sitting there, its just really a disgrace. That was a perfect call. But adam schiff Doesnt Talk About joe biden and his son walking away with millions of dollars from ukraine and then millions of dollars from china. Walking away in a quick meeting walking away with millions of dollars. He Doesnt Talk About joe biden firing a prosecutor. And if that prosecutor is not fired, hes not going to give him money from the United States of america. Reporter attacking the investigators, the process, attacking the complaint and talking about the bidens, not addressing the underlying and what some called grave concerns raised in this complaint. Ali . Thanks very much, Kelly Odonnell at the white house for us. Lets dig deeper into the complaint and the hearing today, joining me former democratic congresswoman elizabeth holtz, currently counsel at a law firm and author of the case for impeaching trump. Clint watts is a former fbi Special Agent now a distinguished research fellow, also an msnbc National Security analyst. Clint i want to pick up with you, the idea that this Whistleblower Comes Forward with the complaint and Rudy Giuliani saying its hearsay, wouldnt be admissible in the court of law, thats not the point. The whistleblower goes with a complaint and provides a road map of which is what happened, this is you could sniff it out, find out whether im telling the truth or not. The whistleblower is not a prosecutor, hes not taking the case to trial and not trying to try Rudy Giuliani. When he or she, we dont know
who it is, was trying to reveal what they believed to be unethical conduct in a personal nature, not a National Security nature. Its not in terms of of the interest of the United States. So when you look through the claim, it sources many other sources. It looks like theres people in the white house that were talking about conduct there. Looks like something from the Intelligence Community. Even sites out to the hill, news sites and points out these Different Things and puts it together, like an Intelligence Officer would do. They would do it in the course of their work. So it looks like an Intelligence Officer saying we need to look at this, this is not done for National Security purposes its, in fact, inviting election interference. Liz, thats the point we need to look at this, a whistleblower complaint is not as clint said, meant to be a case presented to a jury. Its ive seen something that is worrisome. You are the people i would bring it to, so im bringing it to. Rudy giuliani is throwing mud, the president is throwing mud, wants a firing squad, take care of whistle blowers, but thats not the point here. The point is theres a process to protect the government too from crazy allegations. So that this allegation, before it would go to congress had to be vetted by the Inspector General, who had to determine that it was credible, that the person was credible and that there was an urgent concern about. Which happened. Right. He did. He did a preliminary investigation. I dont know how many people he talked to, he may have talked to a lot of people, we dont know what investigation he conducted. But theres a barrier at the beginning, some Filtering Process to ensure that whacko complaints are excluded. This was deemed to be a credible complaint from a credible person as a matter of Urgent National concern. What is the Urgent National concern . That the president of the United States is using the power of his
office, the awesome power of his office to bludgeon and bully a small country in Eastern Europe to try to manufacture dirt on a political opponent. Thats whats happening here. And the testimony the transcript of the testimony that came out yesterday showed that President Trump was saying weve been really good, very, very good to ukraine. He said that twice. And he particularly said it hasnt been reciprocal, which i thought was remarkable language. Corrects. I do a lot for you, you sort of owe me something, here it is. Do me a favor. Thats what he says next. What this whistleblower report shows and the favor is to manufacture dirt. And what the whistleblower report says, which is really ominous is that the president of ukraine was told beforehand, before this phone call, and he would not get a phone call with
the president of the United States and they need military weapons visavis russia that he would not get a meeting or a phone call with the u. S. Unless he agreed to play ball. So we have use of president ial power to coerce, its not a question of quid pro quo, this is coercion of a Foreign Government for personal benefit of the president and its an impeachable offense. This is not a Foreign Government on a level Playing Field with the United States. They are in a hot war with russia and are depending on american and european aid in order to survive that war. I want to bring in a former federal prosecutor, now an msnbc legal analyst. Rudy giuliani, im kind of surprised that he keeps going on tv and talking to reporters about this stuff because he is really proving to be a complicating factor for the white house and the president in this one because first question is, why was he there . Why, as he said he said the
State Department sent me to ukraine. Why is he mentioned in this phone call . Hes President Trumps personal guy, lawyer, fix it guy, whatever you want to call it. His role in this thing makes it awfully suspicious. Its suspicious and hes earned himself a subpoena in front of the congress. I assume his phone will be subpoenaed first since hes waving it around saying the proof is in the phone. And he sent associates to meet in ukraine and we have to talk to them first. There are a lot of things first. I have to say for the record about hearsay, many, many investigations begin with hearsay. Thats why we start there and then go to get the witnesses. Theres no news there, hes done investigations thats ridiculous. And the number of witnesses need to be interviewed, many before Rudy Giuliani, who sort of has a dual relationship. On the one hand he said he was sent by the State Department which means he doesnt have an attorneyclient relationship, but on the other hand he says theres a relationship but periodically waives it by saying what the president said. So once again Rudy Giuliani unhinged is not helping himself and may end up indicted. Lets talk about investigations and hearsay again. Maybe we need investigation 101 here. There are lots of things that come to officials, fbi, local police where someone said i heard something happened and people like you had to make decisions as to whether this is coo coo bird or i could go down a road and make inquiries to find out, right . Thats what you would do . Whats clear from this, especially when i heard acting dni maguire talked to, the complaint was brought to the ig, and they followed up on it. They dont go, oh, we shoot this
up the ladder without looking into it. You do voracity, whats the voracity of the reports, they talk to officials in several areas. Im sure the ig tried to vet this. No doubt they went down that road before they move into the process. One thing i disagreed with today, they were often times beating up maguire about the time line. Im quite sympathetic to him, actually. I imagine myself in his shoes, the complaint tom koms august 12th, august 15th coats leaves, hes there on the 16th. The ig would probably take a week or two to vet it to make sure its in their per purview before they move it along. I know he was trying to figure out the rule book. But it seems the procedure followed through the way it was
designed. I thought representative herd who has an intelligence background. He asked important questions, if this happens again what would we do . How do we rewrite the rules . What would you suggest . There was no real answer. Thats the point. If you think maguire is an institutionalist, military guy, former navy s. E. A. L. , trusted, follows a rule book, thats what hes done his entire career, the rulebook says x and y, there are people saying all the rules are broken now, when you get a whistleblower saying the president of the United States broke the rules then going to your boss, the president of the United States or the white house to see if this should be done, i feel like its breaking the rules, how do you square that . Thats a problem because he obviously went to somebody who had an interest in concealing it
and then the same thing happened with barr. Barr also is a figure here. Not only is he a figure named him in the memo and complaint. And not only the suggestion that they refer this for criminal investigation, thats like Alice In Wonderland because the attorney general has already said the president cant be indicted so why do a criminal investigation. So that was you know, its just trying to weave patterns to confuse people. I think its serious when you have and i think maguire exercised bad judgment. I dont know that hes malicious. But hes also an acting. Hes also an acting so if he wants to get permanently named director, hes got to salute the president. So that may be a factor here. Thats one of the problems with the number of acting people in the government, where is their accountability, they work
for the Executive Branch but the accountability is supposed to be to congress. So thats a big question. Lets talk about bill barr, cynthia. Again going to a Justice Department about a complaint that has bill barr in the complaint as somebody who was involved, a material witness, really, somebody who if there were an investigation would have to be involved in providing evidence right. Not just in the complaint, but the president mentions bill barr several times in the in the phone call. In what we believe is an accurate transcript well wait and see if its true. Hes been brought up numerous times. And now barr then what we know the olc says, oh, you dont have to turn this over because the president isnt actually a member of the Intelligence Community. That is completely ridiculous, the president is the head of the Intelligence Community. Then send it to the Justice DepartmentCriminal Division where the Criminal Division says this wasnt a thing of value, which is also ridiculous because we know that this type of
dirtying up of a Opposition Dirt is a very valuable thing. Its a very valuable thing and they look at it in a very discreet way. They only look at this one little phone call. This is a whole conspiracy with the upper levels of the government to violate the Campaign Finance law and abuse power. They dont look at the whole thing. Add to that that barr is not really an honest broker. He lied to the American People about the Mueller Report you take that hes mentioned, we have these two questionable rulings and has a history of lying to the American People, he should not be involved in any Decision Making in this case. I do feel badly for Joseph Maguire because a couple days on the job and this huge case comes to him, you can see how the pressure would be to cover your butt, but it was a bad call he made to go to barr and the white house. Thanks to the three of you. Thanks to all three for your analysis. The whistleblower complaint is now public or at least most of it is, shedding new light on the phone call between President Trump and president volodymyr zelensky, earlier we heard from Joseph Maguire who would neither confirm nor deny to members of the House Intelligence Committee that he spoke to President Trump about the complaint. Joining me now is a democratic congressman who sits on the house Intel Committee. He questioned maguire this morning. That was interesting maguire for most of that testimony appeared to be a straight shooter but the chairman asked him several times, you can answer it this way or this way, its basically a yes or no question, did you speak to the president or didnt you . He gave some version of Executive Privilege, if i had talked to the president i wouldnt tell you about it. Thats right. So you can invoke or the white house can assert Executive Privilege over the substance of
a conversation, but the existence of the conversation is not protected by privilege. And certainly, no privilege shields misconduct. And so, these are certain basic principles which i think may have alluded acting director maguire who otherwise as i said during the hearing should be thanked for his service. Hes a real patriot but he made some bad decisions. You said in the hearing what lends credibility to the whistleblower complaint is the fact that the Inspector General would bring forward a complaint against his boss and thats something thats especially courageous. The fact is the ag im sorry, the ig, the Inspector General, did find the complaint to be credible and urgent. The things that had to happened. Correct. I hope that your viewers have a chance to look at the Inspector Generals analysis. Its called a determination. It was based on a twoweek analysis of the complaint. He spoke to witnesses, he reviewed other materials and he came up with the determination that it was both credible and it met the urgent concern analysis. The fact that this trumpappointee would come forward, though he did not have to, to bring to our attention that hey, i turned over a whistleblower complaint to the dni, whos not giving it to you, is not something he had to do, but he did it anyway. He was professional, he was courageous and i asked dni maguire to make sure that hes not retaliated against either like the whistleblower. Lets talk about retaliation, the president said earlier to members of the United States mission to the United Nations, he said i want to know who the person who gave the whistleblower information was because thats close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart with spies and treason, we used to handle it differently than we
do now. What do you make of that . Its the same kind of talk we heard during the Mueller Investigation to intimidate witnesses. What we told dni maguire is you need to do everything you can to protect this whistleblower and we need to make sure that others who have knowledge of the misconduct at issue are able to come forward to us. As you can tell from our q a today, there are many witnesses. In fact, there were more than 12 witnesses on the very phone call at issue on july 25th. And they all took notes most likely. So this is something that is very disturbing. I dont like these mafialike tactics to try to intimidate witnesses which i see as a pattern with our president. Congressman good to talk to you. Thank you. Congressman of illinois a member of the House Intelligence Committee. Coming up breaking news, a letter sent by the pentagon to lawmakers saying ukraine took
significant against to corruption. Plus why some are saying the only winner to come out of the phone call with the president of ukraine is president putin. Also my conversation with tom steyer who for more than two years has been pushing for impeachment of President Trump, but hes not the only one sounding off. Senator cory booker says the Impeachment Inquiry is a vital check and balance on President Trump. This is a moment where we should be doing our job. There is enough smoke here that speaks to an inferno of a fire. We need to move forward with this investigation. We need to move forward with this investigation if you live with diabetes,
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you can do it without fingersticks. Could another come aroundot, the corner. Or could it play out differently . I wanted to help protect myself. My doctor recommended eliquis. Eliquis is proven to treat and help prevent another dvt or pe blood clot. Almost 98 of patients on eliquis didnt experience another. And eliquis has significantly less major bleeding than the standard treatment. Eliquis is fdaapproved and has both. Dont stop eliquis unless your doctor tells you to. Eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. Dont take eliquis if you have an Artificial Heart Valve or abnormal bleeding. If you had a spinal injection while on eliquis call your doctor right away if you have Tingling Numbness or muscle weakness. While taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily. And it may take longer than usual for bleeding to stop. Seek immediate medical care for sudden signs of bleeding like unusual bruising. Eliquis may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. Tell your doctor about all planed medical or dental procedures. Whats around the corner could be your moment. Ask your doctor about eliquis. The democrats pressing acting director of National IntelligenceJoseph Maguire this morning on why he withheld a whistleblower complaint are not the only ones outraged by the complaints. Some ukrainians are outraged that the president was pressured to investigator joe biden and his son. Erin, i was talking to Richard Engel about this earlier. This is playing differently in ukraine. The ukrainian president said he wasnt pressured by donald trump but the bottom line is ukraine is to some degree beholden to the United States for the funding it gets and the military assistance, so a request like that is tricky for ukraine. Reporter yeah, thats actually right. And people ive been speaking to here and kiev are extremely concerned at the events unfolding there in the United States. They see this very much as a loselose situation. Thats perhaps why today, from ukrainian officials, weve heard very little so far. They speak out one way they could be perceived to be favoring the democrats, another way they could be perceived to be favoring the republicans. And everyone here in kiev that ive spoken to so far says they have an interest in ukraine remaining a bipartisan issue in the u. S. And theyre very concerned that as a result of this scandal, that bipartisan support that people here have enjoyed for some five years now is very much in injujeopardy and if that mel away theyre concerned what could happen if ukraine is left without that vital support in
the face of russian aggression. How is this playing out politically in ukraine . Are Opposition Leaders sort of using this against the president at the moment . Reporter at the moment people here are being very tight lipped. This is seen by pretty much everyone here as a loselose situation. Ive been speaking to anticorruption campaigners who tell me that they saw that memo, they believe that zelensky was under extreme pressure at that time remember, he is a novice politician, a former comedian, this is his first post in public office. He came into office enjoying support of 70 of the elector e electorate, hes still Honeymoon Phase at this point, enjoying Popular Support and anticorruption campaigners i have been talking to, theyve seen the memo and believe hes
acting under extreme pressure which explains why he handled the situation he did. Erin, thank you very much. At the heart of todays news are the actions on the president , what the whistleblower allege took place. The actions urged nancy pelosi to look into impeachment. Earl lier i spoke to tom stier get his reaction. You made a point a long time ago that impeachment wasnt about a political imperative, it was necessary because of the message it would send to the American People about Congress Responsibility of upholding the constitution. Thats right. I always said this is not about bipartisansh partisansh partisanship, its about the American People. And we need to stand up and fight when we see something is wrong. Thats the point. Nicole was saying earlier, one of the problems here everything alleged to have happened with respect to the president of ukraine happened after the Mueller Report was out. Most people after having been the subject of a report for a couple years would walk around probably carefully, did that embolden him because there was no apparent consequence to anything he did before that . I think theres no question that this president felt from the beginning he was above the law and he felt increasingly that no one was going to hold him to account, so in effect he was free to put his interests ahead of the American People, to use the office for his own personal gain. No question you look at this, its bold, its wrong and its a complete its consistent with what hes done since hes been in office. Were in the 220s member of the congress, democrats, who are supporting some version of impeachment action, no republicans, one independent. What do you think it should look like for them Going Forward . Ali to me the court that counts here is the court of public opinion. I started need to impeach two years ago because my point was the people who count here are the American People. What we decide, show us the evidence, put it on tv, let americans decide for ourselves about right and wrong, because i believe that there is no elected official who can stand up to the judgment of the American People once we see the evidence and get a chance to make up our own mind. One thing we have seen in the attempts to have hearings and call witnesses to congress is the extent to which this administration will excerpt some sort of privilege to prevent people from testifying. Thats not the way it went in the early 70s with watergate. Once they got people, they talked. I think thats true. If you read the Mueller Report or heard about it, basically mr. Mueller showed that this president has obstructed justice as president. Do i expect that pattern to change from this president . No. What i do expect to change is as the American People understand whats gone on and draw judgments about how wrong this is, theres extreme pressure on all the people obinstructing justice to know when they go along with this president theyre putting themselves at extreme personal risk because when they take them go back to watergate, they took them all and they have to know thats part of the precedent. The problem is the narrative today is different as presented by a number of different republicans, i spoke to them yesterday on tv. They presented a different narrative than the documents we had proved. But there are people who only hear those messages now, depending on what they consume and how they watch cable tv. So there are people Walking Around who do not think the facts of what happened actually happened. Does that endanger the republicans, as long as they can convince people what democrats say happened didnt happen, just ignore it, its a part of a
hoax. I think theres a secure political republican story that comes out through fox news and the associated organizations. But the other thing i believe, ali, the truth is a lion. Once you let it out, its hard to get it back in the cage. So i think the truth is so straightforward i thought this for two years. This is the most corrupt president in american history. He is wrong, what hes been doing is wrong. And its our job, its your job, my job as american citizens to fight that. I think americans across the country, whether theyre democrats or republicans share those same values and when they see the truth theyll draw their own conclusions, and that will be devastating to mr. Trump. This has been a conflicting journey for nancy pelosi. There are 70 or 80 members of congress in the last few days that decided to change their view on this thing. How should she engage in this . She has been a reluctant participant. She said again today we dont want to jump right to articles of impeachment we want to study this. Its important to remember, before this new ukraine incident broke over half the democrats in congress were publicly in favor of an Impeachment Inquiry. I think this is a success for the grass roots, ali. Two years ago the people started to weigh in their voice, more than 8 Million People signed the need to impeach petition. So we were pushing to get the truth. I think at this point its incumbent on Speaker Pelosi to make sure nthe evidence is show not just to the members of congress but the American People see how corrupt this president is, and we get to decide. Thats the job to make sure the American People get to see. If we get a chance to see it, i dont think anybody can stand up to us. That was my point Going Forward and two years ago. The solution is the American People. The wisdom is with the American People. The courage is with the American People and the compassion is with the American People. Lets let us decide when we make up our minds, ill go with however the americans decide. Tom steyer is a 2020 president ial candidate. Nbc news obtained a letter sent to House Committees On May 23, 2019, this year, by the Under Secretary for policy saying that ukraine had taken significant actions against corruption. This is important. Kelly odonnell joins us from the white house with more. The reason its important is because donald trump said that money, the 391 million that he withheld from ukraine was done t
on the basis theynt hadnt done enough against corruption. Reporter this adds another data point as we try to understand the series of events and rationale given by the white house and other events as were learning them. Here comes a new piece of information from the Department Of Defense where they were n informing the relevant committees of congress about the preparedness to provide Military Asis Tarns to ukraine. On behalf of the the secretary of defense and in coordination with the secretary of state, i have certified the government of ukraine has take condition substantial actions to make defense Institutional Reforms for the purpose of decreasing corruption, increasing accountability and staining improvements of combat Capability Enlabeled by assistance. This was in may, we know the
call in question happened in july and we know the president chose, based on the information in the whistleblower complaint to freeze the transmission of u. S. Resources to ukraine prior to that call. So this is another piece of information from the u. S. Government that suggests that there was evidence that ukraine was, in fact, moving in a direction away from corruption and toward a more stable government. It also comes at about the time of the election of president zelensky, the new president of ukraine. So this is just one more piece for people to evaluate in the rationale being given by the president who said he withheld, through these documents, in part because he wanted europe to pay more to ukraine, also the concerns about corruption that the president has expressed and his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, of course, some of that being in the judicial part of ukraines government, perhaps separate from their military. But this is the kind of
interagency window we are getting that is giving us a fuller picture. So from the pentagon we get at least a glimpse, a slice of information that says ukraine was moving in the right direction. And the other slice of information we have is the business about europe paying more does not bear out yooit either because europe has been paying more than american through the course of the tension between ukraine and russia since 2014. Exactly. Kelly odonnell for us at the white house. Coming up next, new reaction from House Members after todays testimony of acting director of National IntelligenceJoseph Maguire. Plus it was a watershed day in washington as we got an upclose look at the whistleblowers words. Well look at the complaint and the impact its had on the testimony. Youre watching msnbc. Testimony. Youre watching msnbc. You got this. You got this. You got this. You got this. Doprevagen is the number oneild mempharmacistrecommendeding . Memory support brand. You can find it in the Vitamin Aisle in stores everywhere. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. I didnt have to shout out i didnt have to get you a lift. And i didnt have to call your wife to meet you at the doctor. Because you didnt have another dvt. Not today. We discussed how having one blood clot puts you at risk of having another,. So we chose xarelto®, to help keep you protected. Xarelto®, is proven to treat and reduce the risk of dvt or pe blood clots from happening again. In clinical trials, almost 98 of people did not have another dvt or pe. Dont stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of blood clots. While taking, a spinal injection increases the risk of blood clots, which may cause paralysis the inability to move. You may bruise more easily or take longer for bleeding to stop. Xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. It may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. Get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. Do not take xarelto®
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and accepting foreign help in connection with an election is illegal. Colorado congresswoman who joined that list way back in may after the release of the Mueller Report. Congresswoman, thanks for joining me. A couple of key points. In the last few days the president has changed his story as to why he withheld the 391 million approved by congress to go to ukraine. He said it was about corruption, something hes not actually ever expressed any concern about. However, we now have this letter that nbc just got suggesting that that Wasnt An Issue that was written in may. And then he said it was about europeans paying more for ukraine. But we know that that is just a fact that europeans have paid more having to do with ukraine since 2014 than america has either. We dont even have a viable excuse, let alone admission that what happened happened. Well, i think the white house is just throwing up everything it can to try to objeviscate th
issue. President trump called the leader of a foreign country and tried to get him to help him in the 2020 election. And this is what bob mueller investigated all these funds to see if Candidate Trump coordinated with the russians. Well here you have President Trump who is president of the United States putting himself in a very bad position with a foreign leader and asking for help. And then he admitted it. Now what were seeing today as we look at the whistleblower report, were seeing increasing evidence that the white house knew that this was it was beyond the pale. And so you see now a coverup. I think were only beginning to see the very edge of this coverup. I think it goes pretty deep within the white house. Lets talk a little bit about what the president its not really alleged now because the Los Angeles Times has a recording of it. The president in new york
speaking to members of the United Nations mission said i want to know the persons almost a spy. I want to know whos the person who gave the whistleblower the information because thats close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart, right . The spies in treason, we used to handle it a little differently than we do now. Other than the fact that thats sort of not really a sensible thing to say, it does put a target on people who decided to come forward and say that theyre concerned about the ethics and morality of Whats Going On in the white house, let alone the legality of it. Well, this is why we enacted a whistleblower statute. And this is why whistleblowers are so important to the integrity of our democracy. This is what Speaker Pelosi said yesterday. And i completely agree. Is we have a system in place where if somebody sees something wrong in a systemic coverup like were seeing here, they can
have the benefit of law that they will not be punished for coming forward. I think whoever did this is an american hero, not a spy. What can be done . I mean, everybody who is potentially a whistleblower in business or politics sees this kind of thing and says this is not something im going to get involved in. It stops here, im not going to have the president of the United States suggest that thats treasonist and what his implication is that we used to actually kill. We would put people who traitors to death. As weve known, President Trump will just say anything he wants at any given minute. But the truth is the whistleblower statute is holding, its protecting this individual. And thank goodness the individual came forward and made the report. We might never know this because it looks like after the president said this in this phone conversation, there was a massive effort at the white house to stop it from ever getting out. They took the transcript, they didnt put it on the regular Storage System. They put it on a top secret
intelligence Storage System even though there was nothing intelligence about the conversation. They knew what was going on. And if it hadnt have been for that whistleblower, we might not know this today. Of course this puts the whole United States position in jeopardy because there was someone else who knew about, and that was ukraine. Uhhuh. And that does compromise things. Congresswoman, thanks for talking to me. Congresswoman diana deget of colorado. Joseph meg yif left a closed meeting with the senate Intelligence Committee. Joining me now from capitol hill is msnbcs garrett haake. That was a closed meeting so i guess we know less about what happened there than what we saw this morning in the house. But fundamentally, would it have been different from what the American Public saw this morning . Reporter it appears the meeting itself was different and the reaction to it has been different, ali. By and large today on the senate side of the capitol you have not seen republicans rushing to the barricades to defend President Trump in the same way that they saw on the house side today. A lot of republican senators
said they hadnt found the time to read the whistleblower report. They had not gotten into it, but the republican senators whove been coming in and out of this Intel Committee meeting behind me meeting with the dni and now the Inspector General of the Intelligence Committee have come out with a little bit more of a serious tone here saying theres a lot in this. They want to take it very seriously. While they are getting briefed they are not commenting. Some like Susan Collins have said she wont discuss this at all until the house decides what its going to do about impeachment. But republican senators including some of those who are more typically allied with President Trump and im not saying a large number but at least a few are holding back a little bit on this where they continue to be briefed. And again at least on this side of the house the senate side taking things a bit more seriously. Let me just ask you about what Susan Collins said. She said im not commenting on this because impeachment i would be a juror which is kind of the way it works, right . Because the house prosecutes the senate, you know, deliberates and votes. Some might say that felt like a
copout. Reporter yeah. Ultimately well, and some may say that. If and when the house does choose to vote on articles of impeachment, thats exactly what the senate becomes. You will have essentially 100 jurors. There will be a trial before the senate with the Chief Justice presiding. Some people might call that a copout, but at least a technical solution for republicans who dont want to get bogged down on this. Now that this is labeled an impeachmentrelated issue here, it doesnt you can almost make that argument, right, that its not an intelligence issue, its not a Foreign Policy issue if its an Impeachment Issue, then republican senators can say, oh, no, im not going to touch that yet. You can judge that as you will. Garrett, stand by. I want to bring in Geoff Bennett whos on capitol hill for us. Different story on capitol hill, we are in the 220s, right, of the number of democratic members
of Congress Plus one and the independent who are calling for some form of impeachment action. 222 plus one. If there was a vote on impeachment, 218 would be needed. Reporter youre right about that. And House Leaders know that time is not on their side. Theyre only, what, less than 30 days left in the legislative calendar before the end of the year. So the thing that House Leaders, the point that they make is that this entire process has to be fast and it has to be focused. And right now the House Speaker nancy pelosi is signaling that this ukraine controversy will really Play Center Stage as they try to push this Impeachment Issue forward. She is still encouraging those six committees to do their current ongoing investigative work into issues like the emoluments violations of the emoluments clauses, the findings of the Mueller Report. They havent really moved the public needle all that much. When it comes to ukraine,
though, the thinking is that this is a situation that is simple, its straightforward, the messaging that democrats want to push is really, really easy for the American Public to digest and understand. And democrats also feel that even with that hearing they had today, they put a couple of wins on the board. They have the acting director of National Intelligence under questioning saying that the whistleblower complaint is credible. Then when you had Congress Woman elise stefanik, the republican from new york, she tried to make the argument that because the Whistleblower Makes clear that this is second hand information that this might be something of a political hack job. But Joaquin Castro got the dni to say that, yes, the whistleblower complaint and the summary of the call that the white house release ready in alignment. So just right there democrats feel like they dismantled a key republican talking point. Right. And as we pointed out at the top of the show, the whistleblower complaint is not evidence that goes before a judge or a jury. It is investigative stuff that would be followed up on. So the fact that its hearsay is not relevant