You often do not hear this Attorney General pushing back against the president. Sessions may not be the only loyalist that the president is concerned about. Nbc news has confirmed a Wall Street Journal report that federal prosecutors have granted immunity to this guy youre looking at, david pecker. The Chief Executive and chairman of American Media, which publishes the national enquirer. Hes a longtime friend of President Trump. Joining me now is nbc news investigations reporter, tom winter. Also with us by phone is msnbc contributor and vanity fair special correspondent, gabe sherman, whos out with a new piece, Trumps National enquirer allies are the latest to defect. Gabe, let me start with you. What do we know about the immunity for david pecker and what that means . Well, ali, you know, two things on an legal level, this shows that prosecutors had enough to put pressure on david pecker and American Media for their role in essentially becoming a de facto arm of so in order when you have all of those things together, at that point, you can be charged with or somebody can be charged with improperly influencing an election, but most specifically, to these charges, making a Campaign Donation in excess of the maximum allowable amount. In this case, they paid Karen Mcdougal 150,000, clearly above the 25,000 threshold. So at that point, they committed a crime. If they had just they can go around, they can pay you, they can pay me. Anybody on the street this total amount of money and be fine with it. But if its done at the behest of a campaign in order to influence an election, at that point, theyre in the arena of Campaign Finance laws, if they go over that threshold, theyre in trouble. But are they in the arena of Campaign Finance laws, if a Media Organization does something to influence the outcome of an election . Because Media Organizations do that all the time. If theres no coordination with the Trump Campaign or no direction from the president , peckers okay . Yep, thats absolutely correct. So in this particular case, they say, hey, Michael Cohens involved in this. Hes involved in essentially charging them to do or it causing them to do that is actually the correct term. So, yeah, as soon as Michael Cohen causes them to do that or is involved in this process and hes doing it at the direction of the campaign, thats where people start to run afoul of the law. All right. Gabe sherman, tom winter, thanks to both of you for shedding some light on this. Nbc news investigations Reporter Tom Winter and vanity fair special correspondent, gabe sherman. As we said at the top of the hour, Attorney General Jeff Sessions pushing back against the president. He said, while i am the Attorney General, the office will not be improperly influenced by political considerations. I demand the highest standards and where they are not met, i take action. However, no nation has a more talented and dedicated group of investigators and prosecutors than the United States. Joining me now is nbc news justice correspondent, pete williams. Pete, this is entirely out of character for Jeff Sessions, who has taken been taking a whipping from donald trump pretty much since he was appointed to Attorney General. It is, absolutely. And what were told by people close to the Attorney General is that he basically decided that this was that the attack today was of a different character from the president. That in the past, the president s tweets and statements have been about specific Justice Department decisions. Sessions decision to recuse, of course, which is a constant theme for the president , that he sounded again today. Not releasing more documents that republicans on the hill are demanding, in the house. The whole idea of peter strzok and lisa page, the hillary email investigation. So those are in one category. Today they felt was different, that it was a direct attack on sessions control of the Justice Department and they felt that this more muscular statement was to be issued, just as sessions was on the way out the door to go to the white house for that meeting that you talked about, that was previously scheduled about criminal justice reform. The key sentence in it, of course, is the idea that as long as im Attorney General, the Justice Department wont be improperly influenced by political considerations. A very muscular statement by any Attorney General against the white house o or or in respo to a white house statement. The statement does three things, i dont think theres a more loyal cabinet member than jeff session and he does it again in this statement. He says, look, i took control of the Justice Department, im trying to pursue the president s agenda of fighting Violent Crime and reducing illegal immigration. Secondly, he praises the men and women of the Justice Department, which is again, i think something that people at doj will be grateful for. And thirdly, this is, enough is enough, dont push us into improper political considerations. All in all, a very, very strong statement from an Attorney General, whos been punched at by the president for months now. And i think the second part of that statement is really important, because the president never goes out of his way to compliment the Justice Department. Its almost the opposite. Hes always insulting the Justice Department. Just earlier this week, you had a tweet about them. So on a lot of levels, this is a surprising response from Jeff Sessions. Pete, thanks very much. Pete williams for us In Washington. How is the white house responding to all of this now . Joining me now with the latest is nbc news chief white house correspondent, hallie jackson. I told you this morning i would be seeing you again, hallie. Reporter you called it. I decided, it was such a nice day, wed come out and have a little talk, ali. This is a little unusual. The president politicized Jeff Sessions again this morning, and Jeff Sessions nobody expected that to happen said thats not actually the way its going. Reporter and then the two of them go in and have a facetoface this afternoon as all of this is developing. Jeff sessions walking into the white house for a previously scheduled meeting, at least, we know that much for sure. Listen, this is a moment, right, again in this long and convoluted relationship between donald trump and his Attorney General. Im old enough to remember the campaign, ali, when Jeff Sessions was, as you guys talked about, the first senator to come out and endorse donald trump at that massive rally in alabama. That was back in february of 2015, at a time when donald trump had just gotten through the early january races, didnt have a ton of establishment quote unquote support from people inside the beltway here In Washington. Sessions was that. He backed him up the entire time. Now that relationship has just disintegrated, as pete has ably laid out there. So the president hasnt said anything publicly other than the fox interview yet. He had that spray earlier this morning that you saw, that meeting that was opened up to members of the press. And the president did not respond to reporters shouted question. Ill tell you, i think most of those shouted questions related to Michael Cohen, the other guy at the center of a big headline today. And how is the white house strategizing around this . I will tell you that based on our reporting here listen, theres a sense that people are talking about wanting to soldier Coverage of national and international news, including breaking stories. And that is an antipublic Safety Position for the president to take. Evelyn, this morning on an interview with fox, donald trump talked about the payments that were made to these two women. Hes also trying to reframe that discussion. Lets listen. He made the deal. He made the deals. And by the way, he pled to two counts that arent a crime, which nobody understands. I watched a number of shows, sometimes you get some pretty good information by watching shows. Those two counts arent even a crime. They werent Campaign Finance. Did you know about the payments . Later on i knew. Later on. But you have to understand, ainsley, what he did and they werent taken out of Campaign Finance, thats a big thing. Thats a much bigger thing. Did they come out of the campaign. They didnt come out of the campaign. They came from me. My favorite line there is i watch a number of shows, sometimes you get some good information from watching shows. I get a lot of my information from law order, for instance. He might be watching you, ali, rate now. The president has sort of missed the point that the judge this Federal Court in manhattan seems to have also missed, the idea that payments were made for the purpose of influencing a campaign, which is a crime, the Distraction Technique is kind of remarkable. The president focusing on whether the technicality of it is a crime, which, again, it is, is almost secondary to the fact that the president admits he made payments to women, dot, dot, dot, as Michael Cohen said, for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the campaign. Well, first, ali, its not just where the money came from. Its dish me i mean, thats irrelevant. Its the fact that they spent the money and then hid it. They hid the fact that they were spending this money to hush up his affairs. So that in and of itself is problematic, and obviously, hes sort of doing a sideways admission to these two affairs, which he had denied all along. Or just paying two people off with lots and lots and lots of money. Raight. Glenn, the president also spoke about manafort. This is the second time hes been asked in a few days about pardoning Paul Manafort. Heres what he had to say. Are you considering pardoning Paul Manafort . I have Great Respect for what hes done in terms of what hes gone through. I would say what he did, some of the charges they threw against him, every consultant, every lobbyist In Washington probably does. I have Great Respect for what hes done. Glenn kirschner, he was convicted on eight counts, which had a great deal of evidence behind them. Yeah. You know, prosecutors and Law Enforcement generally just cringe when we hear these kind of things and when we see the president putting air quotes around justice and the department of justice. But let me tell you, ali, if he decides to pardon Paul Manafort, guess what . That freeways up Paul Manafort from being able to assert any right against selfincrimination. Bob mueller can then take mr. Manafort, put him on the stand in any trial he pleases and introduce every single document and other item of evidence through Paul Manaforts testimony against the defendant. And lets be clear about that. If hes pardoned and loses his Fifth Amendment rights and bob mueller puts Paul Manafort on the stand and asks him a question that bob mueller knows to be true or has evidence about, Paul Manafort is then again guilty of a different k m crime. Exactly, if he lies, hes guilty of contempt, perjury, Obstruction Of Justice, so no matter which way the president turns on this one, Paul Manaforts testimony will be available to the special counsel. Thank you both, Glenn Kirschner and evelyn farkas. Up next, its not just the democrats pushing for a delay in Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaughs Confirmation Hearing which is now less than two weeks away. After the break, im joined by a senate aide who says that kavanaughs confirmation should not be before the november elections. Today can save your l. Sometimes you need an expert. I got it. And sometimes those experts need experts. On it. [ crash ] and sometimes the expert the expert needed Needs Insurance expertise. Its all good. Steve, youre covered for general liability. And, paul, we got your back with workers comp. Wow, its like a party in here. Where are the hors doeuvres, right . [ clanking ] tartlets . We cover commercial vehicles, too. I think theres something wrong with your sink. Im ray and i quit smoking with chantix. I tried cold turkey, i tried the patch. They didnt work for me. I didnt think anything was going to work for me until i tried chantix. Chantix, along with support, helps you quit smoking. Chantix reduced my urge to smoke. I needed that to quit. When you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. Some people had changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, or suicidal thoughts or actions with chantix. Serious side effects may include seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking or allergic and skin reactions which can be lifethreatening. Stop chantix and get help right away if you have any of these. Tell your Healthcare Provider if youve had depression or other Mental Health problems. Decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. Use caution when driving or operating machinery. The most common side effect is nausea. I cant tell you how good it feels to have smoking behind me. Talk to your doctor about chantix. The current president of the United States may have directed his lawyer to commit twofulness. Theres too much here to simply proceed as though we were just this were just another nomination. The voters deserve a chance to weigh in before the senate rushes to place a justice on the court, one who will still be there decades after trump is out of office. Joining me now is the author of that piece, tom nichols. As i mentioned, hes a former Senate Republican aide and a professor at the naval war college. Tom, im glad to have you here, but i feel like id really like to have a senator, who says what you said. Youre not making this stuff up. This is not weird antirepublican party stuff. This is credible. There is a president who has reason to be under investigation at this point, and there is a justice of the Supreme Court who may be nominated, who may be called to opine upon that while sitting. Two things right away, ali, one is that, first of all, theres no chance this is going to happen. I wrote the piece kind of as a cree decur about hoping that the gop would think about principle here. The second thing i should say is that, of course, i only represent my own views. Sure. The test here should be, if this were Hillary Clinton and she had been elected and was under this kind of investigation with this many charges, with legal experts again, im not a lawyer, but legal experts telling us that theres this kind of credible evidence and she sent a judge to Mitch Mcconnell for confirmation who could then be sitting in judgment of her, quite soon, you know, it fails the laugh out loud test to think that Senate Republicans would then say, well, with you know, this has got to be an apolitical process and were exercising advise and consent. Theres no way that could happen. That second part of what you just said is what the important part is. This judge may be sitting in judgment of donald trump. And if you didnt think that was the case, the chances of that becoming the case got a little stronger earlier this week. And thats the relevant part of this. That, whats the in fact, i want to read from your Washington Post oped. You said the same republicans who felt obama had no Business Nominating a justice so close to an election are now rushing to confirm a judge whose entire nomination now could represent a gigantic Conflict Of Interest for their own president and party. We ought to ask why republicans feel its imperative to Rush Kavanaugh On to the court and why most of all they will not trust in the judgment of the voters just two years after claiming that only the voters could speak on something as important as a Supreme Court nomination. I would like to hold the republicans to their own standard. And i think, as i say in the piece, i think it should be clear, i didnt like what happened to merrick garland. I thought he deserved a hearing. Im not sure that i would have been happy with his confirmation. I am a lifelong conservatism or what used to be called a conservative before our current age of President Trump. But i think he at least deserved a hearing because those are the constitutional norms that we have to observe and our system is based on. And until Michael Cohens allocution in Federal Court, i would have been against holding up judge calkavanaugh, who i th by any account is a perfectly reasonable conservative nominee for the Supreme Court. But if that you know, were now in the opening phase of a political crisis. I think we can no longer pretend that were not in some kind of political crisis and that we may i think i personally think we may be heading towards a constitutional crisis sooner rather than later. And i dont see why the senate cant wait 75 days when their previous position was, there was no other reason to wait than that praum wasn president oba going to be president anymore. So i dont see any other reason to do this. Tom nichols, thanks for joining us. Up next, the Justice Department may stay out of the business of impeaching the president , but congress doesnt. After the break, ill be joined by an attorney who advised the House Judiciary Committee during president nixons impeachment. He sees a lot of similarities between then and now. Youre watching msnbc. The president s former personal attorney said in court that he broke the law at the president s direction, but the Justice Department has long taken the position that a sitting president cannot be indicted. That is a renewed focus on congress, which does have the power to impeach or remove a president for treason, bribery, other High Crimes And Misdemeanors, something President Trump brought up in his fox interview this morning. I dont i dont know how you can impeach somebody whos done a great job. Ill tell you what, if i ever got impeached, i think the market would crash. Im going to dig into that claim about the market later in the show. But first, lets take a closer look at how the impeachment process works. It starts in the house of representatives, which draws up the articles of impeachment. Think of the house as a prosecutor and the articles of impeachment as a document detailing the alleged crimes. Only the house can bring charges against a president. But any individual Congress Member can start that process. Then the house votes. A simple majority is all thats needed to approve the impeachment, which is about 218 votes, give or take a few for vacancies. Then once the house approves the articles of impeachment, it goes to the senate, which essentially holds a trial, acting as the courtroom and the jury. The senate needs twothirds or 67 members to vote for impeachment. That means where things stand right now, 18 republicans would have to vote to impeach the president. If that were to happen, the president would very likely be removed from office and the Vice President would take his place. Weve never Gotted Ed Tten to before. The senate acquitted Andrew Johnson and bill clinton before impeaching them. Richard nixon resigned before he was impeached. I want to talk now with a man who served as Legal Counsel to the Judiciary Committee during that time, michael conway. Michael, good to have you here. Thank you for being with us. Are we at a time where we should be talking about impeachment . Absolutely. You know, the news today shows that the president s on the cusp of committing in public an impeachable act. Richard nixon, one of the articles in the Obstruction Of Justice was that he held out the possibility of people convicted, like Paul Manafort now, of favorable consideration if they keep silent or give false testimony. The president s suggesting, pretty openly, that he might pardon manafort. But he doesnt even have to pardon him. In nixons case, he didnt pardon anybody. Howard hunt, who was convicted of the watergate burglary and was being sentenced was promised by aides that there would be the possibility of clemency. Nixon didnt want to do it, it was too politically volatile. And he wanted to do it actually after the midterm election, if that sounds familiar. So the very thought that he would hold out this possibility to manafort in the hopes that, as he said, manafort didnt break, that hed hang tough, that hed be a loyal soldier, that, itself, can be an impeachable offense. It was one of the nine specifications in article i of the Impeachment Resolution against president nixon that was adopted by the House Judiciary Committee. And of course, the president said, and he has continued to say on fox, and it seems to be untrue, that the Campaign Finance violations arent actually a crime. But, in fact, the constitution is very specific about High Crimes And Misdemeanors and bribery. And it depends on how congress interprets this, but the bottom line is, postmidterm elections, if the democrats were to take the house, the chances of impeachment, whether or not the senate votes for it, the chances of impeachment in the house get higher. So this is why the president has sort of threatened that if the Mueller Investigation discloses anything basically after the meeting in september, theyre going to come at them lake a ton of bricks. Do we need the Mueller Investigation to chime in before congress is actually able to do anything . Well, we do need the Mueller Investigation. Again, going back to the nixon era, the house of representatives itself interviews some witnesses, but basically they relied upon the information that had been gathered the year earlier by senator irvines committee, and most importantly by the satchel of evidence that the judge allowed the watergate grand jury, including tapes, to be sent to the committee. So the same thing here. The committee is an Ongoing Investigation right now. It cant start from scratch. But mueller has the ability to write a report, to send evidence, and the House Judiciary Committee would then launch an investigation. You said the procedure very correctly, ali. But whats going to happen before the house votes is the committee and the Judiciary Committee will have an investigation and will put the evidence together and consider ta the articles of impeachment. So i think its inevitable, if the democrats take control of the house, to at leahat therel least be that investigation. We dont know the outcome, because we dont know what the Special Prosecutor will produce by way of evidence. Michael conway, good to talk to you. Up next, a trade war between the United States and china escalates again, as President Trump imposes another round of tariffs on billions of Dollars Worth of chinese imports. Our Vaughn Hillyard is In Washington state, where frustrated apple and Cherry Farmers are feeling the effects on their bottom line. Youre watching msnbc. Welcome hi there. So, what do you look for in a vehicle . Sleek designs. Performance. Dependability is top on my list. Well then, heres some vehicles that deliver on that. Woah wow. Oh jeez thats our truck its our truck and theyre our cars thats my chevy chevys the only brand to earn j. D. Power dependability awards across cars, trucks and suvs three years in a row. Awesome. Im proud. Its like a dynasty. Its impressive. You shouldnt be rushed into booking a hotel. With expedias addon advantage, booking a Flight Unlocks discounts on select hotels until the day you leave for your trip. Addon advantage. Only when you book with expedia. Addon advantage. Oh oh ozempic® vo people with Type 2 Diabetes are excited about the potential of onceweekly ozempic®. 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China retaliated by slapping matching tariffs on goods from the United States including cars, buses, motorcycles, bicycles, medical equipment, and much more. So if youre keeping score, heres where things stand so far. The United States and china have imposed 53 billion in tariffs on imports from other the other country, and the trade war appears to be far from over. President trump has proposed adding 25 or a 25 tariff to another 200 billion in chinese goods. China says if the president goes through with that, it will slap a 5 to 25 tariff on 60 billion in american products. Now, the trade war is having an impact on many industries. One of the hardest hit is farming. The Agriculture Department says American Farmers export more than 20 of what they produce. Nbcs Vaughn Hillyard has been traveling across the country, taking a closer look at the impact of tariffs in specific industries. He joins us now from a fruit stand in thorpe, washington, thats about a Hundred Miles South and east of seattle. Vaughn, what have you got . Reporter yeah, ali, well, theres much going on In Washington. Its about a matter of what is happening on the ground here across the country. In yakima county, im going to introduce you to ray keller. Since 1914, his family has been growing apples out in yakima. They now have 130 employees that not only pick, but they also distribute. And they work with 100 different other growers in the region. Well, there is still no nafta renegotiated deal announced, in china, just today, the u. S. Trade commission was having hearings about placing additional tariffs on more than 200 billion worth of chinese goods, which as you mentioned, china intends to retaliate back with. It comes down to whats happening here. Cherries. The Cherry Industry has been tariffed by china. Theyre looking at a 60 to 80 million loss. The apple industry, upwards of 200 million. We caught up with ray just yesterday. And this is a little bit of what he told us. Probably the three biggest export countries for the state of washington are india, mexico, and china. They account for 51 of the export out of the state. And roughly the state does roughly 30 of the fruit is exported. We do probably a little more of that here, maybe 30, 35 . How important are Export Markets . Extremely important. Extremely important. 30 of your demand is coming from there. You lose 30 of your demand, you understand economics, its not good. Reporter ray exports, ali, more than 1 million boxes of apples every single year overseas. The top five markets for them, among three of them have tariffed. That is india, mexico, and china. I actually just got off the phone just a bit ago with the president of the u. S. Apple association. They happen to be having their annual conference right now in chicago. And he said that they have been told repeatedly to stay patient. He said, but when you have three of your five Export Markets at risk. And as we noted, 30 of the apples here in the region go overseas, he said that suddenly it becomes an illusive virtue, which is patience. Right, with perishable goods. I remember when the russian sanctions came in, and in poland, a much bigger percentage of their apples went to russia. They supported the sanctions, but they were like, what do we do with all of these apples. Trying to get poles to drink apple cider. Do americans all of a sudden buy extra soy, extra apples, whatever it is. Its very, very hard for people who create a perishable product that cant easily be stored for another season. Reporter yeah, gala apples are being picked here right now, ali, and over the next two months, that process is going to continue. They can store them up to a point, but at the same time, once off backlog now, thats tough to get rid of over the course of the next year. And as old economics goes, when the supply is up here, the price goes down, and that ultimately impacts their bottom line, because weather is a tough enough factor for these guys. And theres often years focus just like ray, they dont make a profit many years. This year, its tough to have that expectation that they will do that just this year, ali . Vaughn, thanks very much again for your continued coverage of these important matters. Vaughn hillyard joining me In Washington state. Joining me now is mary lovely, an expert on trade with china. Mary, lets just talk about this. It is there are really valid reasons, and we have to keep on reiterating this. There are valid reasons to take a tougher stance with china for particular things that china does that are not fair on the trading front. But the world is much, much, much more dependent on trade generally speaking than it was 25 or 30 or 40 years ago. And the damage to using a Sledge Har Hammer where you need a scalpel can be very serious on the u. S. Economy. Well, thats certainly true, ali. These tariffs are really selfdefeating. We heard from Apple Country that the president has told growers to be patient. One hopes that patience is rewarded with some kind of, you know, benefit. Unfortunately, with these tariffs, were hurt because the taffs on china raise costs for our producers. The tariffs that china levies against us hurt our growers and other exporters. So were hurt both ways. Its not going to lead to changes in the kinds of behavior that were found to be egregious in china. All right. So whats the i keep on asking people, because at some point, the president may realize hes going to do real damage to the economy, but something needs to be done. What does success look like here . Whats the thing were supposed to be doing, assumingly, were not supposed to be making a trade war with Everybody Else around in the process. If we thought china was the problem, there would have been a way to take all of our allies and sort of figure out a way to have coordinated pressure on china to fix the things we actually want fixed. Well, the section 301 investigation identified four particular types of problems. Some of those are going to be handled with other not trade measures. So, for example, one of the concerns that china would buy American Technology companies, simply to take the technology back to china. And congress has recently passed a bill that will make it easier for the government to scrutinize those types of investments. There was also concern that the Chinese Government was forcing American Companies to license technology at belowmarket rates. We have taken a case to the wto. Now, that leaves two other concerns. One is that American Companies are being forced to transfer technology by taking chinese partners who then learn how to do the secret sauce and take it and create their own businesses. Thats something that we could reasonably and certainly, i think, beneficially, be discussing with the chinese. We need to take our friends, as you mentioned. We need to be strategic. We need to be focused, and we need to be much more diplomatic. This Sledge Hammer approach, putting the chinese in a corner and forcing them to kowtow to President Trump and his administration is simply not going to work. It is senseless. Its not going to work. Mary, good to talk to you. Thank you for joining us. Mary lovely is an Economics Professor at the Maxwell School at the syracuse university. This just in, Duncan Hunter says hes voluntarily stepping down from his three committee assignments. Speaker of the house paul ryan had previously requested hunter to step down. This comes after hunter and his wife pleaded not guilty to charges of misusing more than a quarter Million Dollars of campaign funds. Hunter said the indictment is politically motivated and initially refused to step down from his committee indictment. He probably would have been forced to have done so next week when Congress Gets back if he hadnt done so. Coming up, my next guest takes me through what he calls the timeline about President Trumps lie about what he knew about the hush payments to two women just days before the 2016 election, two women with whom he allegedly had affairs. Youre watching msnbc. Applebees to go. Order online and get 5 off 25. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. For afib patients well managed on warfarin, there is limited information on how xarelto® compares in reducing the risk of stroke. Dont stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. While taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. Xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. It may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. Get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. Do not take xarelto® if you have an Artificial Heart Valve or abnormal bleeding. Before starting, tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures and any kidney or liver problems. Learn all you can to help protect yourself from a stroke. Talk to your doctor about xarelto®. The president lied. The washington pac Fact Checkers using that word months and months about the president s payoffs to women. A man who made a that decision is glenn kessler. Good to see you again. In your new piece, not just misleading, not merely false, a lie. You take us through the time line of the president s lie about the payments. But you also write it wasnt easy to get to this point in terms of labeling him a liar because its difficult to document whether the president knows he is not telling the truth. Thats of course different than difficult to imagine its not possible, but your business is not imagining, its documenting. Right. This is the first time weve ever labelled statements by a politician to be a lie because it is often extremely difficult to get in someones head and determine twlowhether or not th intentionally knew what they were saying was false. Its difficult with this president because hes very situational and he seems to firmly believe things when he says them even in the face of overwhelming evidence that what hes saying is wrong. But this this case we felt we had no choice but to actually use the word lie because it was clear that his efforts to deny these payments and what was going on here was an effort to obscure and disguise the truth. I come to calling the president a liar a little more easily, but i do have a method for it and the method is that we know because we get feedback from the white house that they watch our broadcast and check it and so do other news organizations, particularly those favorable to the president. There are many times in which the president says something and we correct him. So hell talk about hell lie about Trade Deficits and well correct it. Well correct it as second time after he says it, and a third time. Were clear that the white house and those around the president is our proof has been presented. At that point if not presented to the president or the president doesnt change his articulation of the lie, im very comfortable at that point calling it a lie. At some point the president doesnt exist in a vacuum. His people do read newspapers. They certainly comment on the Washington Post a lot so they read it. Once youve given the president a few times to understand that its a lie because youve labeled the president having false or misleading claims 4,229 times, do you at that point feel emboldened to say hes lying . Well, no. This is not something were going to do on a regular basis. This was a really unique circumstance on a significant issue, a significant effort to mislead the american people. And i think its of a difficult order of magnitude than, for instance, when he says repeatedly that he passed the biggest tax cut in u. S. History. You know, there are all sorts of measures for that. Ive never quite understood the measure that he uses. It doesnt seem to add up. Its i think perhaps a little different than this situation. Okay. Except that listen, i am a great admirer, as you know, of what you do, 4,229 false or misleading claims which is an average of 7. 6 a day. Whats the bar as to whats a lie and whats hogwash . Well, in our case and weve had a lot of discussion about this it really has to be really well documented that we can determine that the president really understands that when he is saying these things, he knows it to be false. Got it. As opposed to simply firmly believing it. I mean, he says lots of things where you can tell he believes hes absolutely right even in the face of what many of his advisors might tell him. We know for a fact that hes been told many times by his advisors about Trade Deficits, about, you know, whether or not amazon the contract with amazon and the post office is profitable. Right. He doesnt listen to that. Doesnt want to hear it. Ed gillespi glenn, thanks so much for all you do in projecting what the president does. Hes the editor of that section. Up next were witnessing history on wall street. Im going to tell you about it when we come back. Its Pretty Amazing out there. The world is full of more possibilities than ever before. 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The Great Recession is now officially the longest one in history. Its been 3,454 days and counting since the markets hit their bottom after the financial crisis of 2008. All three major indices have seen huge gains since the end of the recession. The techheavy nasdaq is up more than 500 since 2009 thanks to the performance of tech and internet giants like facebook, amazon, apple, netflix and google. The s p 500 a broad index featuring the 500 largest publicly traded companies in the United States is up more than 300 since march of 2009. In fact, the index hit an alltime high on tuesday. And the dow has made really 30 large publicly owned companies. Its risen 300 during that period. It is down from the record high earlier this year. As the closing bell starts to ring on wall street, the dow is down today on worries about the trade war with china and