Trumpmueller facetoface interview. It relates basically to the Russia Collusion thing, which we think there is no evidence and the president didnt do anything wrong, so we dont have much of a problem with it. But the obstruction thing, its more a question of we dont see the legal basis for the president obstructing by merely taking an action in Firing Somebody that he had every right to fire and about ten good reasons to fire. When are you going to nail this down . I think a couple maybe this week, maybe next week. Last time you told us it was july 4th, mr. Mayor. Well, a lot happened since july 4th. Giuliani also revealing some new details about what may be on the Audio Recordings from the fbiseized tapes there from Michael Cohens apartment. Msnbcs jeff bennett is there for us. Jeff, what can you tell us . Reporter another sunday brings another round of Tv Interviews featuring the president s outside attorney,
Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani is now saying a tape made between President Trump and his former attorney, Michael Cohen, has been tampered with. There is no evidence to back that up. We hear the voices of the president and cohen discussing payment of karen mcdougal. She is the former playmate alleging she had an affair with the president before he became president , something the white house denies. Take a look at what else giuliani had to say about these cohen tapes. We know of Something Like 183 unique conversations on tape. One of those with the president of the United States, the threeminute one involving the mcdoougal payment. There are 12 others out of the 183 in which the president is
discussed nature length by cohen, mostly with reporters. All clearly corroborating what the president has said in detail on many of those tweets, in other words, that he didnt know about the payments to either one when they happened, that he only found out later cohen made them not for the campaign he didnt like the campaign. He said very derogatory things about the campaign. He said, i only made it because i personally love the president and melania, and thats why i made the payment. Reporter so this latest effort to discredit Michael Cohen comes, as we reported, cohen is set to tell the Special Counsel that President Trump knew in advance about that june 2016 trump tower meeting with the russian lawyer and the russian advocates with the promise of the exchange of dirt on Hillary Clintons campaign, something that, so far as we know, did not materialize. President trump is still at his private golf resort in bedminster. He spent much of yesterday uncharacteristically quiet on twitter, but this morning he was up and at em fairly early on
all good news for the president are something We Shouldnt Take at face value. We should wait and see if the audiotapes actually emerge. Lets hear giuliani discussing his present State Of Mind after the cohen allegations. First of all, the president feels disappointed. I think the anger is over. Weve assured him in a very strange way this is a very Good Development for us because we do have all these tapes, and these tapes completely demonstrate the president did nothing wrong. Cohen is on record over and over again stating his position. It would be hard to contradict that now. And hes done so many despicable things, his credibility is not an issue. The Defense Agreement is effectively over because hes made it clear hes not going to give us information. What do you make of the series of headlines this is
having on the president . From the day the fbi raided Michael Cohens apartment, the hotel he was staying in, his offices, the president is clearly shaken. Hes been very, very angry about the whole development. There is thinking among friends in the white house of the president of the potential cohen could have on him because he worked so closely with the president for so many years, was involved in some of his affairs that this line of questioning coming from new york is potentially more harmful to him than anything bob mueller is doing when it comes to obstruction of justice or collusion charges. You can tell just by reading the president s twitter feed that he is rattled by Michael Cohen. You heard giuliani saying there that the president at this point is not necessarily upset about it, but the president is not somebody who lets things go lightly, he hold grudges against people, and the fact Michael Cohen has gone against him, these are two men ready to rip
each other down to gain advantage. Three months since that april 9 raid, in fact. Betsy, you read about this. What are your sources telling you . On the evening last week when the Michael Cohen audiotape was being rolled out and received walltowall coverage across all three cable news networks, the president actually hurled expletives at the television because he was deeply frustrated to see this report come out, to see these news stories emerge. So what we can tell you without a doubt is this is something that is really disturbing and rattling to President Trump and its something hes very concerned about. What i can also tell you is that the president s outside allies hounded by Rudy Giuliani are engaged and prepared to ramp up their attacks on Michael Cohen. For them Michael Cohens liability is a huge liability. We dont expect to see the attacks on Michael Cohens
credibility coming from Current White House officials. Theyll try to keep their hands clean with things coming out of there. You heard giuliani say Michael Cohen actually had done many bad things. Of course those bad things likely would be presumably at the behest of giulianis current client, the president. That hasnt kept giuliani from dredging up Michael Cohens past to benefit other witnesses. We certainly see giuliani, hes gotten quite the media blitz this week going after cohen, really casting doubt on his credibility and going back and forth on lanny davis. Is there a palpable strategy, one you can figure out, jill . Yeah, the strategy here very clearly seems to be that they are trying to throw as Much Negative material at the wall as possible, seeing what sticks so that they can muddy up whatever conclusion is reached here. I thought the back and forth
this week over the meeting at trump tower was absolutely fascinating where you had there was a theory it was actually trumps team that had originally made that accusation, put that out there, the idea that Michael Cohen knew about this. The idea that the president knew about this, the idea that don jr. Had told him and that all of these people, if thats true, had gone out there. They lied to congress about it. They publicly made statements that were inaccurate. The fact that the president s legal team was sort of willing to put that out there is just pretty extraordinary, all in the service of trying to undercut Michael Cohen, of trying to hurt his case here. What are you hearing, betsy, in terms of don jr. , the likelihood of being brought back to capitol hill and having to testify again . I dont think i havent received any information to that effect. Its unlikely that republicans on capitol hill will want to sort of put him through the
wringer again. From testifying before, they have his comments. If he testified and goes against the claims Michael Cohen intends to make, that could cause discussion. But as long as republicans control congress, i think its unlikely they would try and bring don jr. Back for a second round of interviews. I just dont see that happening. Allen weisselberg, his role as Finance Chief and what kind of information he might be able to offer short of the president s tax returns, or might it build up to having to release to some Degree Information from those tax returns. Thats an interesting question. Weisselberg is someone the public might not have known about before this week, but hes been a longtime ceo of the trump organization. Hes the only Family Member appointed of the trustee of the trump trust right now who holds all of his business holdings, and he is someone who was deeply
involved in all aspects of trumps Business Activity and other activity. We heard his name mentioned on that secret recording that cohen had made fof him and the president as they were discussing the mcdougal payment. Who knows if he took part in that which is why hes been subpoenaed. I dont know if the fbi already has trumps tax returns, but trumps tax returns are something all of us have been interested in and trying to get ahold of for years. Thank you, ladies, both so much. Overtures between President Trump and vladimir putin. Why the back and forth is raising more questions about the president s judgment. beep can i get a connection . Can i get can i get a connection . Can i get a connection . Ive been Making Blades here at gillette for 20 years. Theres a lot of innovation that goes into making americas 1 shave. Precision machinery and highquality materials from around the world. Nobody else even comes close. Now starting at 7. 99. Gillette. The best a man can get. Meeting on friday. The meeting ended with no overall strategy to prevent hacking or meddling, despite reports that three 2018 campaigns have already been attacked, senator Clair Mccaskill saying hers was unfairly targeted. John is a thirdyear veteran in russian affairs. Hes also an msnbc global analyst. John, welcome to you. Can we talk about the meeting, 30 minutes . That was it. Was that time to discuss strategy in this big Picture Problem . No, it wouldnt be, alex. I spent, in my career, a fair amount of time in that Situation Room in such meetings, and typically 30 minutes is just enough time to make the introductions and get started. Normally a meeting like that is going to last about an hour, hour and a half or so, and given that its the very first one, its really hard to believe they
got very far into the subject. This president s reputation, hes notoriously hard to brief and get details in a comprehensive way. He has sheets of details put on one sheet, they call it. This, do you get a sense you would be even interested in listening to points on this topic . Everyone says hes heard it, but in truth, a couple things on this whole issue. First, the white house has eliminated its Cyber Security coordinator. The way i look at this, no one is really in charge across the entire government, which is important for a couple of reasons. For one thing, many parts of government have a piece of this problem. The technical side would be the National Security agency to monitor russian behavior, also attempts to influence the election. Homeland security has a piece of it that is supporting the state and local election offices. And then on top of that, you know, its a complicated
country. We have 3,000 counties across the United States who administer these elections. So unless there is someone with their arms around this entire problem pulling things together, thats the first problem. Second problem is, my experience in the Executive Branch is that unless the president forcefully speaks out and gives direction and drives something, it doesnt really happen with the conviction and vigor thats required, and that hasnt happened here. Is it fair to make an analogy to the era before 9 11 where there were all these unique Intelligence Agencies working on their own accord, and so mistakes happened in terms of maybe not the right information going from one place to the next post 9 11, after a huge, huge debacle that desperately hurt this country, things pulled together. Homeland security gets created and everyone starts working in more concert together. Is that a fair analogy . I think theres some fairness to it. There is some differences as well. Whats fair about it, i think, is that in both cases, there was a lot of warning of a coming attack before 9 11. Not the specific attack on the trade tower, but the idea that we would be attacked, and yet there wasnt a lot of response in congress or, for that matter at that moment in the administration as there is now a lot of warning about whats coming in the 2018 elections and maybe 2020 as well. So theres something to that. The difference, i think, is that in this case weve already experienced the problem. In other words, the kind of clarifying event that 9 11 turned out to be has already occurred. We have all of this data on what the russians did in 2016, so theres really no excuse for the lack of a concerted vigorous approach, whereas before 9 11, one could say, well, the country
hadnt seen graphically what could happen. After 9 11, everyone kind of got it together. Similar in some ways but maybe different in one or two important ones. Importantly, youve pointed that out. So we have the president who has really complained about the socalled deep state. He is now, as you know, threatening to revoke Security Clearances of those who criticize russian interference. Do those he threatens no longer have Security Clearance . If youre fired, i know that no longer exists. I think the whole idea of removing Security Clearances in the circumstances the president has discussed is a ridiculous idea. Essentially hes threatening people who have exercised their First Amendment rights to speak
their mind, and so the reason for removing them is not there. Typically when clearances are removed, its as you suggested you have a hearing, there is an appeals process, it can go to federal court. None of that has happened. This is just the president sort of waving his hand and i might want to do this. I dont think it changes the way Intelligence Officers deliver their message, though it does send a chill through that process if youre saying to people who possess classified information, if you Say Something i dont like or i find personally offensive, your clearance could be in jeopardy. Because frankly, in my old business, a lot of what you do is pass on unpleasant news. So you do need that a sthaurns youre okay to do that. Thats the essence of the job, essentially what the job is. You have said the president is not prepared for his interview with bob mueller and the Special Counsel. Find out what mike pompeo found out about that meeting. I was president in the briefing of what transpired during that meeting. I was also there when they gave us a sense of what happened in the meeting after. I also chatted with Sergei Lavrov twice about what took place. I think i have a pretty good understanding of what took place in that meeting. Did you speak to the translat translator who was at that meeting . No, i havent. Do you get the sense he got most of his information from russia . Is this concerning to you at all . That was an unusual hearing, and i think a lot of the senators came away doubting that
the secretary had, from the president , a very clear readout on what occurred in that twohour meeting. First off, a twohour meeting is a long meeting you talked earlier about length of meetings. Thats a twohour meeting. Its a long meeting for a president and a foreign and then you bring in your officials. In this case, we dont know because mike pompeo didnt say specifically what he had learned about the content of that meeting. As far as i can tell from what ive seen publicly otherwise, what we know comes mainly from the russian side. The russians have already issued statements that they are prepared to follow up on agreements on syria and on military cooperation. They said theyre willing to meet with our offices here of what we call our general staff. They mean the joint chiefs and so forth. So there is something there they are shielding which we havent heard from our side. Maybe the president said we covered the following subjects, but so far the pentagon is saying they have any guidance. John mclaughlin. Its interesting times, to say the least. Thank you very much for weighing in. Michael cohen might have some explaining to do on capitol hill, and will all that eventually backfire . Ooh, heaven is a place on earth uhp. I didnt believe it. Again. Ooh, baby, do you know what thats worth . I want to believe it. [ claps hands ] ooh im not hearing the confidence. Okay, hold the name your price tool. Power of options based on your budget and well make heaven a place on earth yeah oh, my angels ooh, heaven is a place on earth [ sobs quietly ] ooh, heaven is a place on earth whoooo. Tripadvisor makes finding your perfect hotel. Relaxing. Just enter your destination and dates. Tripadvisor searches over 200 Booking Sites to find the hotel you want for the lowest price. Dates. Deals. Done tripadvisor. Michael cohen has already appeared before Congress Talking about a lot of things. And this idea he told trump about the russia meeting before it happened is, to us, very much new news. So mr. Cohen, if youve got something new to say, you need to come to congress and say it under oath. Joining me now, congressman of tennessee. I want to get your opinion of what Lindsey Graham just said about Michael Cohen. Do you think he makes a good point, or do you think its the president that loses in the Credibility Department . I think that Michael Cohen, Rudy Giuliani and donald trump have about the same amount of credibility. They all use at best situational ethics but probably more likely they just lie constantly and theyre all three pathological liars. Okay. Well, thats saying something. I want to play for you what Rudy Giuliani said about Michael Cohen here from an interview earlier. And the man is a pathological
manipulator, liar. I didnt know that. I didnt know him well. I would have been surprised back then, but now that i know all this about him, it seems to me his default position is to lie. Hes a bad liar. It looks like you took some of the words from giulianis mouth right there in reference to cohen, but a few weeks ago it was a different tune. Giuliani and the president were singing Michael Cohens praises. They were saying how great a guy he was. What happened . Well, i think things changed, the situation changed and they decided to go on the attack, and the same thing might have happened with Michael Cohen. He was willing to take a bullet for donald trump and he was testifying nothing happened. Now hes in a different situation. I think Robert Mueller will use his testimony if he finds it credible. Robert mueller has had other people who have turned and he knows how to ascertain with a good degree of center whether the person is being truthful to him, and hes not going to put
anybody on the stand or put them in his report if he doesnt think theyre being truthful. Michael cohen might have had a come to jesus moment, especially here on sunday, and decided to seek the truth and be an american hero, you dont know. But hes had lying problems in the past. As far as giuliani, they say you cant con a con man, and Rudy Giuliani should have known what Michael Cohen was because theyre birds of a feather. What about the chances that donald trump jr. Could be brought back to congress and the level of trouble that he might really be . . Can you weigh in on that . Only in the senate. The house will not do it. The House Judiciary Committee has done nothing to look at Election Interference and nothing to look at the trumps. The one committee that should be working on this has done nothing. He had testified before, i think, senate and house intel both, and he may be called back. If he does, i suspect hed lie again. In the clips ive seen of him, he looks as guilty as he can be. In the last half an hour or so, he was talking about protecting the election. Meanwhile, you had republicans who passed down all additional funding this week to protect the state and local elections. In your opinion, what do you think its going to take to get this whole issue taken seriously on capitol hill . Well, its going to take republicans and paul ryan and the Freedom Caucus to have a come to jesus moment. You know, they put up additional funding protecting our elections and the president hasnt done
anything about it. The media was just show business. There was nothing more to it. Weve already seen where Clair Mccaskill was a victim and there will be other victims. The republicans didnt do anything. In fact, i was the one that started the democratic chant after that that was very strong. Usa usa usa it went over very well. We had another attack in our country and they sat on their hands. They will have to see the government judge them sharply in the long run, not the short run. Thank you, representative. Why President Trumps hotel could be
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renting out huge halls for bang the questi banquets and rooms and for states doing the same thing. Hes also hurting other hotels in the area because theyre losing business for this because people want to exert influence over the president by giving him this profit. And the Emoluments Clause is really an anticorruption, antibribery Conflict Of Interest suit. So the word emoluments isnt very well understood, but it means if youre getting a profit from anything other than your salary as a government employee. And thats whats happening here. So i think its going to be very good, and its important because it can lead to discovery. And that means that he will have to reveal the profits hes making from the hotel and from other places that may be benefiting. His golf clubs, for example, where the government is paying thousands and thousands of dollars every time he goes there and hes there, as we know, like a third of his time as president. So, jill, in terms of how
that information gets revealed, is that done through tax returns . Not necessarily. I think personally you need to go to his financial records, to his Bank Statements much more than to his tax returns, although clearly that would also be one thing that would have to be revealed. And Forensic Accounting would have to take place because were looking at what is the profit that he has gotten as a result of his ownership in these . Now, there is another part to the lawsuit, which is also simply that the lease that the government wrote says that no one who works for the government can be a beneficiary of the lease. So just on terms of the lease itself, hes violating the terms of the lease. And it was illegal for him to have any interest in the hotel. The person in charge told him that, and he fired a new person in charge who said, oh, no, its okay. So there could a criminal act that has to do with the firing of that person. So, jill, if the president is found guilty of violating the Emoluments Clause in the constitution, then what happens . Im just going to remind our viewers that earlier today, Barbara Quaid suggested that it could come to a point where the president has to choose staying involved in trump, inc and all the manifestations of that versus the white house. He would have to choose between the money hes made as a businessman versus staying on and running the business of the country. That is correct. I believe that is exactly what would happen. He cannot put it into a blind trust because there is only a limited number of things. Its not like someone who owns thousands of stocks that can be traded at random will. He knows what hotels he owns. He knows what properties he owns. And he knows which ones will benefit from his Foreign Policy decisions and from other things that he does. So he would have to give up complete interest in them. He could earn no income from them. And that might be a very tough choice for him to make, because so far he has shown that he is much more interested in profit than in protecting the American People or doing their work. Hes causing the taxpayers to pay a lot of money toward his hotels, and that does not seem like someone who is interested in the good of the American People. You were right, this is a huge story. Im glad weve discussed it and i have all certainty well be discussing it Going Forward as this Lawsuit Moves forward. I hope so. Jill winebanks, thank you very much. Thank you. The war against the news media. How far will he go to not Meet The Press . And california congresswoman
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russian thing. Hes made it clear he didnt know about the meeting beforehand. President trumps lawyer Rudy Giuliani commenting on a New York Times report saying Special CounselRobert Mueller is examining mr. Trumps tweets for a possible obstruction case. Lets bring in democratic leader John Car Ro Way and chief correspondent for bloomberg news. Carrie, to you first here. Do you think Rudy Giuliani really believes the president s tweets are helpful . After all the swipes hes made at intel, are they helpful . I think they are because it is the president speak to ing t, the people, without having to go through a third party where it can get distorted. Also on obstruction which rudy has hit on in interviews, says
that obstruction is something done to the Department Of Justice. He told the president three times, you are not under investigation. The definition of obstruction is to impede an that the president and he has laid out in his tweets, he is calling out the injustice of the situation. So i think that the tweets are valuable. Don, whats your take . I agree that they are very valuable to Robert Mueller. You got to go back to june 2017. None of this stuff exists in a vacuum. That was the day that sean spicer on the instruction of both the president and white House Counsel came out and said that both twitter handles of the president Realdonald Trump and potus are official statements of the white house. Therefore, everything that they say is on the record, particularly when this president does not do Media Briefings like President Obama and president bush did, and when Sarah Huckabee sanders and raz shaw do
not do regular press room briefings. What we have from this president is what he tweets. That is a part of the official record of his presidency, and it is useful and mr. Mueller has ever right to go into it and compare it and contrast it with actual contradictory statements he has made both in private and in public in the course of this investigation. So Rudy Giuliani saying that these tweets dont amount to much is absolutely wrong when this administration said that they are officially statements of the white house and the office of the president. There could also be the question of intent, which could be more clearly revealed with regard to tweets and the like. Kevin, giuliani said that the president made it clear he didnt know about that 2016 trump tower meeting before it happened. There is a source telling nbc news that Michael Cohen is willing to tell mueller, yeah, he did know about that meeting in advance. So does this come down to the president and donald trump jr. s word . He has testified about it as
well on capitol hill, versus Michael Cohens . Yes, it has, completely. In fact, whats going to be interesting is how the administration has how sought to argue that Michael Cohen, president s former personal attorney, was once at one time, they were very complementary of him, and now given his recent Public Comments there has been clearly a change and a shift, alex, in terms of how they are perceiving him. Look, conservatives feel that Michael Cohen is not someone to be trusted. There are folks within the Republican Party as well as democrats who feel he is someone that can be trusted. All of that is setting up a monumental legal battle. The question becomes whether or not bob mueller will be able to get Michael Cohen to hand over any evidence. And a key part here that i think we should all note is that with the developments of these tapes, Michael Cohen is not saying that he has Audio Recording proof of the president , thencandidate
donald trump, being able to be made aware of that meeting. So its turning into, as you noted, two parties making two very different cases, and thats why you are seeing this escalation and political back and forth. Kevin, of all the major dramatic events this week, which is the most damaging to the president . Well, look, i think that there is no question that this was a turning point, alex, in terms of how the investigation has proceeded with the developments of Michael Cohen working with lanny davis, a former top clinton attorney, and it clearly shows that he has 1,000 shifted in terms of his work with regards, in the investigation. The second point i would note is what the administration is pushing out, which is that Fourth Quarter sorry, the Second Quarter gdp of the 4. 1 growth. If you look at polls, it would suggest that the base of the Republican Party is not making much of these types of developments heading into the midterm elections. And i agree with you. Okay. Real quick. Just that as far as the president s weak, if you want to give an additional list of things that happened this week, we had 4. 1 gdp growth. Thats phenomenal. We also had the First Time Since the 50s that the United States is a net exporter of natural gas. Thats phenomenal. We had record low africanamerican and latino unemployment. That was a record, too. Thats why a lot of conservatives are not getting distracted by this. Don, your reaction to the question. What do you think was most damaging to the president . And taking into account great economy and great points on that. I think quietly what continues to be the most damaging is this chummy relationship between vladimir putin, the creme wlkremlin, thed donald trump white house. My home state senator, clare mchaskill, says her office was clearly, very clearly hacked by
russian Intelligence Officers and the one person, the one entity in this country who could have gotten to have the Department Of Justice to stop it and the cia to take action to stop it did nothing. The donald trump white house. They appealed to them. And the cia said they were interested in stopping it but they have not gotten clearance from the white house to stop it. As we move into the midterms 100 days from now we see no plan to have anything different than what happened in the 2016 election when this company was attacked by russian Intelligence Officers, we see no different plan for that to not happen this year. That continues to be the most damaging thing for this white house. All right. Kevin, last word to you regarding the New York Times, the meeting with the president that he had with publisher of the New York Times. The president putting out a tweet this morning. Really a response by a. G. Sulzberger, the publisher who says the main purpose to accepting the meeting was to raise concerns about the president s deeply troubling antipress rhetoric. I implored him to reconsider his attacks on journalism. He didnt ask him to go soft on the New York Times. If he doesnt like what he is hearing, emphasize that. Your takeaway . I grew outside of philly watching Meet The Press with my dad every sunday. Tim russert said, quote, the primary responsibility of the media is the accountability of government. Sometimes thats going to make the left mad. Sometimes thats going to make the right mad. All we can do as journalists is make no mistake. People are mistrusting of institutions, but just stay the course. Report the facts and people can make up their own minds. That will have to be the last word. You guys, thank you so much. Happy sunday to all. Coming up, the president renews a threat to shut down the government. We will get reaction from california congresswoman Maxine Waters in the next hour. [phone ringing]
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