no, i hear it. >> whatever. trump is already in california today where he will speak on veterans issues. he is going to go to a former navy battleship to give the address tonight. carrie dann is following the action. what do you think here as you look at trump trying to do a dance saying he doesn't care about these potential attacks but also going out and trying to make some sort of point about veterans and foreign policy? something that not everyone thinks is his strength. >> well, he's certainly trying to appear in recent days like somebody willing to address all of the issues, talked to radio hosts about foreign policy and then called them gotcha questions after the fact. going into tomorrow's debate he is certainly while the front-runner, ben carson is another person who really needs to be watched. remember, in that last debate on august 6th of last month, ben carson was kind of a little bit invisible and not really -- there were about 45 minutes went by and heard very little from him and now he's surged 17 points in the field now. he's running neck and neck with donald trump. it's also the first time that carly fiorina is on stage with the two of them, as well. and those three candidates i think worth noting are people who, one, haven't been on the same stage altogether so far. two, they haven't really been taking aim at each other until the last week. you saw donald trump and ben carson mixing it up and carly fiorina did the same. >> can i ask you something? are you implying that ben carson is low energy? >> some might say that and the same thing about jeb bush. i think some have -- supporters might take aim a little bit at the energy level and going into this debate tomorrow, you're going to see as much as ben carson and jeb bush don't want to seem like thin skinned about donald trump's attacks i can't imagine they won't try to step up that energy level against the donald tomorrow. >> all right. thank you as always. now direct to howard fineman. i want to get your stake on the carson piece of this as everyone in politics knows. he is gaining on trump. they had a back and forth and carson struck a note of saying, hey, i'm sorry if anyone read my comments as anti-trump on religion. your thoughts sneer. >> i think donald trump and ben carson agree on a lot of issues. they agree on their approach to government, that it's wasteful, that it's too big, intrusive, wrong, wrongly run. they i think agree to a certain extent on social issues although donald trump doesn't have the credibility on them that ben carson does. they're both as others pointed out outsiders who have never held office and i think that in a sense ben carson is emerging as the nicer protest candidate. trump is the angry protest candidate who has huge, ridiculous amounts of energy. and ben carson is every bit as radical if not more so. i think more radical, more conservatively radical than donald trump and the demeanor is that of a nice guy. he is an outsider by definition, ari, in the republican party. in part because of his -- his race. it's rare to find an african-american presidential candidate on the republican side. he doesn't talk about it. it's there. it makes him an outsider by definition, if you will. plus he's a scientist in the sense of a neurosurgeon and seems like a nice guy and radical views and says it calmly. so really, this isn't an ideological struggle so much at the top of the republican field as it is a stylistic one between the bully and the doctor. >> right. and when you look at the doctor and you look at how people get known, you've covered a lot of campaigns, howard, as you know some people are media darlings or an in and some start out famous, a gingrich or trump campaign starts out with people knowing who they are. do you have a sense how are people finding out about carson? he is getting far less attention in the normal traditional way, national media. not running a lot of paid ads. >> first of all, under the radar, dr. ben carson has been a sort of a rock star as a book author, a best-selling author. as somebody when's operated by word of mouth. which is very strong, especially early in the primary season. in caucus season. he is in iowa extensively. he's done it the old-fashioned way going to meeting after meeting in living rooms and small auditoriums all around iowa and new hampshire. it's a word of mouth thing that is slow burning, if you will. like it's not the pyrotechnic rocket of dmonald trump. it is a long, slow ascension that may be durable. in other words, the fact that people have the pride, if you will, of discovering the undiscovered candidate, you know this, ari. >> i will. i will. >> i've covered a million of these campaigns. people in iowa and new hampshire like to think they discovered the answer. they haven't been told it by ari melber or me or whomever. that's the strength of ben carson as a word of mouth build. >> yeah. i think that's fair and clear that through as you mentioned the book circuit, the conservative events, word of mouth and then talk radio he is hitting something different. now, on the jeb bush side of things, howard, is there a point at which jeb bush worries not only in the lead, obviously, but that he may not be the establishment alternative? because as you know, being the establishment alternative, while other people go up and down in the republican party, a good place to be. i mean, that is where mitt romney was to some extent and where john mccain too moderate and got the nomination. is there a risk with the bush numbers he is not holding that spot and kasich or rubio takes that from him? he's not close enough? >> yeah. the only good news and pure horse race terms for jeb bush is that all the other so-called establishment candidates nowhere, either. >> right, right. >> you know? scott walker smart early money, marco rubio, jeb bush as you say, chris christie. none of those people are anywhere. john kasich is punitively an establishment guy. he was head of the house budget committee. governor of ohio. i think he is left a little bit of a crack there between qula's left of moderate republicanism with ch i think to a certain extent kasich represents and the trump carson phenomenon. there's still room i think for an establishment candidate, more traditional establishment candidate in between kasich on one side and trump carson fiorina on the other side. i don't know who that's going to be. it could be jeb. i think polls out now and we have one today huff post. only quarter of likely primary season voters paying close attention at this point and worth remembering. >> it is early for most normal human beings. i want to look at the democratic side. bernie sanders, continuing to make waves. had a big liberty university speech and spoke to andrea mitchell today. take a listen. >> i think there can be common ground in people coming together in terms of addressing such issues as the collapse of the american middle class and the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality we're seeing in america today. when you have had a proliferation of millionaires and billionaires at the same time as we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country on earth and we got millions of families struggling to put food on the table for their children, that is an issue i believe that we can find common ground from a moral perspective. >> you look at that message, that anti-establishment strain, and trump, we're talking about earlier, people say it's like trump is the buchanan here and sanders is increasingly the mccarthy. >> well, i do think that senator sanders is right about the inequality issue and very interesting, ari, that donald trump has picked up a note of this. at least as it applies to hedge fund managers. >> yep. >> he's decided to put hedge fund managers in the same category as illegal immigrants as somebody you can really dump on at a rally in dallas. and he did it yesterday. and you've got jeb bush who's got a tax plan that to some extent goes after the hedge fund guys and bernie at liberty university. that's like one of the areas of consensus that already has emerged in this campaign and if i were a hedge fund manager or if i were a corporation that had a couple hundred billion dollars of unrepatrioted profits overseas i would be worried by the drift of this campaign by all the campaigns. >> we see the report that is some folks around biden want to push later, potentially past the first debate and seeing a sanders-clinton matchup. we were looking that the in our newsroom today. the actual deadline isn't the debate schedule. it's what matters when you look at filing deadlines for getting on the ballot which keeps you in the delegate hunt. for biden that's coming more like early november. >> right. >> takes some time to do it. that's for arkansas. do you see the window up to the ballot deadlines or biden increasingly looking like he is not getting in? >> well, i think why should he stop going around being told how great he is by everybody? i mean, he is having a great time doing it. he memorializes his sainted son wherever he goes and justifiably. he hears nice things from people about how great it would be if he got in without having to sweat any of the details. and having waited all this time, it might make -- i'm sure it makes a lot of sense to him and some advisers to keep waiting. >> right. >> why not wait until hillary clinton has to go before the benghazi committee? why not wait to see what else comes out on the e-mail saga? why not wait to see if he continues as the sum of all hope on the outside non-candidate candidate and see how high the numbers get and do it if he does it at all with supreme reluctance recognizing perhaps only do it for one term, maybe teaming up we liz beth warren and some way. something out of the box because a traditional -- not only traditional kanld da aal candid rope this is time around but traditional campaigns and might be able to argue to themselves, hey, let's do a weird, out of the box kind of draft campaign in november. why snot. >> you hit the word reluctance. people like a warrior and as everyone remembers from "braveheart" we respect a reluctant warrior even more. thank you. >> thank you. new calls for the justice department to investigate hillary clinton's private e-mail server. what you need to know as the scandal seems to be affecting her poll numbers. could taking in syrian refugees open the united states to potential terror attacks? real concerns of militants to ill fill trait. 23,000 people fleeing those california wildfires. while on the arizona-utah line, nine people are dead. at least four others including children missing after some brand new deadly flash flooding. we will head there live right after this break. e are two wind turbines. can you spot the difference? the wind farm on the right was created using digital models and real world location-based specs that taught it how to follow the wind. so while the ones on the left are waiting, the ones on the right are pulling power out of thin air. pretty impressive, huh? now, two things that are exactly the same have have never been more different. ge software. get connected. get insights. get optimized. i work on the cheerios team. and when i found out that my daughter-in-law, joyce, can't eat gluten, we found a way to remove the grains that contain gluten, from the naturally gluten free oats that cheerios are made of. so now we can have cheerios together, anytime. hey babe, last one home cooks? ♪ ♪ ♪ another tie. order in? next time i drive. the right-sized nissan rogue. ♪ so you don't have to stop., tylenol® 8hr arthritis pain has two layers of pain relief. the first is fast. the second lasts all day. we give you your day back. what you do with it is up to you. tylenol®. who knows, one of these kids just might be the one. to clean the oceans, to start a movement, or lead a country. it may not be obvious yet, but one of these kids is going to change the world. we just need to make sure she has what she needs. welcome to windows 10. the future starts now for all of us. my name is jamir dixon and i'm a locafor pg&e.rk fieldman most people in the community recognize the blue trucks as pg&e. my truck is something new... it's an 811 truck. when you call 811, i come out to your house and i mark out our gas lines and our electric lines to make sure that you don't hit them when you're digging. 811 is a free service. i'm passionate about it because every time i go on the street i think about my own kids. they're the reason that i want to protect our community and our environment, and if me driving a that truck means that somebody gets to go home safer, then i'll drive it every day of the week. together, we're building a better california. we are looking at a state of emergency, hundreds of refugees now stranded inside serbia as hungary officials seal the border with razor wire. look here. see the live pictures. this is the serbian side of the border. main land route they're using. dozens of arrested earlier today along that 100-mile border. just overnight. it is now a criminal offense to cross that border without the propers. also, today, austria's saying it will tighten the board we are hungary to slow the tide of migrants. chief foreign correspondent richard engle is along the border with serbia. richard? >> reporter: ari, just 24 hours ago, thousands of people crossing this border. and it is that way for weeks with people from refugees and not just middle eastern countries trying to get to the northern and western countries of europe, predominantly germany and sweden w. this fence up and the fence is now patrolled by the army and police 24 hours a day, the flow has effectively stopped. hungary says it will still allow very few people in if they come in legally an they don't try to cut the hole in the fence and some have been. and dozens caught just in the last 24 hours. and hungary says if they present themselves legally and ask for asylum in hungary and agree to all the documentation that goes with that, then their case will be considered. hungary made it clear that unless they have very good reasons to explain why they need asylum specifically in hungary and why they weren't -- why they're any safer than they would be in serbia on the other side of the fence, that hungary will not accept them and also a real legal issue here in play. how far does your refugee status extend? hungary's position is if somebody is threatened in syria, as soon as they leave syria, they're safe. and that it is not hungary or macedonia or germany's responsibility to allow them to wander freely through europe. big legal questions but at the end of the day there are also moral questions with families whose dreams stopped by this fence. who want to continue. sometimes to meet up with other relatives already in germany or sweden and other countries and desperately looking for ways around this obstacle and to continue their journey. ari? >> nbc's richard engel, thank you for that report. now we the urn from the complicated choices of u.s. involvement and turn to evan coleman, a senior partner of flash point partners and michael doyle a professor and director of the columbia global policy project. good day, gentlemen. >> good day. >> good day. >> long titles because you have long records of service. let me start, basically, with the question, evan , of the security risk. you said that to some extent isis has better avenues than this to move people. >> they have tons of money and looking at the terrorist incidents of europe, they're tied to individuals coming back from syria and managed to get back into the home countries because they had western passports. i think if you look at the source of this report, it was a lebanese education minister who said he had no information to indicate that isis was doing this but that it was his gut feeling and i'm afraid that this gut feeling is more about lebanon getting more money to take care of the refugees within its own borders than the real terrorist threat. >> you think it's overstated at this point? >> yes. may be an effort to get more money for refugees, a good thing, but not through this method. >> michael, do you want to say anything about that? >> yes. what we know is that it only takes a few terrorists to get through to pose an existential danger to a country and one can understand the level of concern to some degree and the arguments we heard to me are persuasive. isis has been very entrepreneurial in the ability to infiltrate and recruit nationals from around the world. they didn't need to wait for a refugee crisis in order to shift people across borders. >> michael, on the actual larger dimension here that basically the ethical dimension that richard engel talking about in his report there is how do you defi define the danger going to the humanitarian analysis of whether you need to take these people or not? you have studied the issues from an international law perspective, written about interventi intervention. what do you think is the moral line that these countries including the u.s. should use here to decide who to take? >> there are some legal ambiguities of what constitutes a refugee. the well-founded fear of persecution on the basis of race, social group political opinion. those are difficult determinations. but the ethical and the human concern is very real. these are people and families fleeing for their lives. they need refuge somewhere outside of syria where they came to a reasonable judgment that staying in syria was the equivalent of a death sentence. whether that refuge is on -- in turkey, lebanon, jordan where the vast, vast majority of the people are now staying or elsewhere is another question. the key question is, as they get safe protection and then a decent life while hopefully some day the crisis in syria is resolved. >> evan, we debate immigration a lot in this country. looking at the numbers on the subset issue of refugees, the u.s. spent about a billion dollars in 2014. not a lot of money from a federal budget tear level scale. john kerry talking -- that's 70,000 and that's 15,000 per. john kerry talking about taking in more, the president taking in a doll lop more. do you think that's enough? >> it's important to contribute here. a lot of us armchair quarterbacking and criticizing european countries for their reluctance to take in refugees or their poor treatment of refugees. and i think it is a collective responsibility. we have decided that we have launch add military campaign in iraq and syria. this is an area that we have committed to for years. we've committed military forces. i think we have to commit humanitarian resources. the numbers, it is difficult to say. obviously, thes a touchy issue with immigration being such a high-profile issue in the presidential campaign. >> i'm loathe to rely on donald trump as a migrant expert but relying on him as a political line, here's someone who's anti- everything with regard to immigration and said on fox news last week and he said, well, you still have to take some of these because of that humanitarian component. >> the people are facing potential genocide at home and fleeing real threats. isis is a real threat, not political people, but everyone. executing -- they executed a historian the other day because he wouldn't show them the hidden riches that is group that everyone has a right to be afraid of and get away. not removing them from power in iraq and syria, we have to do something to help the people that flee. i mean, you can unfortunately only image that's conjured up here of the people fleeing europe in the days before world war ii and how they were turned away from the different western countries and in retrospect how horrifying that seems. >> to that point, michael, as you know, the senate democrats sent a letter to the president several months ago relating it, comparing it directly to the crisis around the genocide of world war ii. lester holt is there on the border, as well. speaking to some of these folks hearing them in their own words. take a listen to what they said they want the rest of world and europe to know about them. >> i want them to know that we are human beings. we live in homes. we had homes somewhere. and that we came not -- we are not happy to be refugees of war. we are obliged to be refugees of war. it's not a matter of choice. we didn't make this choice. >> michael, do the european countries that are assessing this see that the same way, not a choice? >> most of the european governments with some exceptions see that they have obligations to refugees who are fleeing for their lives. but there is a reluctance in some parts of europe, particularly in eastern europe who came out of a long nightmare of communism, see themselves and to some extent still as victims and concern that there's a whole other group coming in to absorb their scarce resources. the problem there is that the numbers are so small this are being discussed with regard to the european sharing plan that mr. junker of the european union prescribed that that fear is not credible. these are fear that is are psychologically, social psychologically driven. not ones that have firm grounding in material reality. each one of the countries could afford to take the numbers discussed so far. >> yeah. >> it is a lack of sympathy i think at work. >> when you put it -- we have to go. it goes to what's so difficult about these, not only political issues but as we have been hear, humanitarian ones. thank you for your time. coming up, a philadelphia teen accused of planning an attack on the pope. how the u.s. and the vatican are preparing for this major papal visit. hundreds search for four missing people swept away in the utah floodwaters. more storms could be on the way. lease the 2015 rc 350 for $429 a month for 36 months. see your lexus dealer. building aircraft, the likes of which the world has never seen. this is what we do. ♪ that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. ♪ [ female announcer ] everything kids touch at school sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. you handle life; clorox handles the germs. you handle life; you fifteen percent or more on huh, fiftcar insurance.uld save yeah, everybody knows that. well, did you know that playing cards with kenny rogers gets old pretty fast? ♪ you got to know when to hold'em. ♪ ♪ know when to fold 'em. ♪ know when to walk away. ♪ know when to run. ♪ you never count your money, ♪ when you're sitting at the ta...♪ what? you get it? i get the gist, yeah. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. developing now, vigils planned tonight in honor of history professor ethan schmidt who was gunned down monday at delta's mississippi state university. shannon lamb is described as a disgruntled employee with an ax to grind. adam reiss on site for us. what can you tell us about how the community's doing right now? >> reporter: yeah, very difficult time here, ari. they're really taking it very hard but they're also breathing a sigh of relief. the lockdown is over. classes expected to resume tomorrow morning. this all happened yesterday about 10:15 in the morning as classes were beginning. he walked into his office, shot him dead right there working. no one knows a motive. no one knows why this happened. i spoke with a professor who was just down the hall at the time. here's what he had to say. >> i heard what i thought were four shots. my students and i, we sort of paused for a moment. kind of collected ourselves and, you know, we didn't hear anything else and could this have been, you know, some furniture that had been moved and fallen over and made loud noises? but, you know, within a minute or two, an officer came into our room and told us no one leave. >> reporter: now, before he came here, he shot his girlfriend at the home they shared. police released a note that he wrote, it says very sorry. i wish i could take it back. i loved amy and she is the only person who ever loved me. tonight we expect a vigil at 7:00 where students and faculty will come together, try to make sense of it all, how they lost not only one beloved teacher but two. ari? >> thank you for your reporting. wildfires rage across california. 23,000 people forced to flee and at least 1 person is dead. 700 homes destroyed. nbc's gina kim in middleton, california. gina, there's a chance of rain. how are firefighters doing out there? >> reporter: well, today brought that little bit of a break that firefighters needed to go from defensive to offensive with this fire. as you mentioned, rain in the forecast. cooler temperatures and we expect that 15% containment number to go up by the time we get the next update which is this evening. now, the rest of the numbers, ari, disheartening. 13,000 people vaetded here. the 23,000 number denotes all of california currently. 600 homes and businesses burned and destroyed here in and around this area once again and 100 square miles of land burned. now, the director of cal fire which is the agency that oversees most of the incidents throughout the state said that we had 1,500 more fires this year than we typically do and he said that's not good news because this is the middle of california's fire season, actually. it lasts all the way through november in this state. ari? >> jinah, thank you very much. now the flash flooding in southern utah, residents swept away by the wall of water, nine people dead. four others still missing and several children. this is on the utah-arizona border. folks concerned and nbc's jennifer bjorklund with the latest developments from our newsroom. >> reporter: hildale in a tough position today still searching up the banks of those creeks but they're keeping scouts up the creek to look for the banks starting the rise again as thunderstorms move over the mountains so it's very careful work and just in the last hour as you know, we have received word of washington county sheriff's office a ninth body recovered overnight. an eighth person found dead. four remain unaccounted and of the dead six in utah. two others several miles downstream in arizona. now the downpour that overtook these two vehicles yesterday 20 to 30 minutes in the mountains and so intense with two separate storm cells, 2 1/2 inches of rain was a 20-foot wall of mud and there was a flash flood warning in effect and witnesses say the caravan of two vehicles pulled over, up on to higher ground and doing what they were supposed to do but then that flash flood came from behind them and pushed them down the creek with absolutely no warning. the bad news, more thunderstorms are expected today, up to half an inch of rain expected in the mountains and if it all comes at once, it could be more trouble. search and rescue effort is definitely hampered by that bad weather report, ari. >> thank you very much. unprecedented security measures for the pope's visit to the u.s. next week. and there is some confirmation of a foiled isis-inspired plot from the holy father. what is the vatican saying about the safety of the upcoming trip? >> reporter: ari, the vatican saying that it knows of no specific threat against the pope and laying out plans today for the pope to conduct some of his u.s. tour from an open-top jeep and as the vatican was setting out what is planned for that historic u.s. tour, news emerging of an alleged foiled plot by a u.s. teen to target the pope. and according to reports, that young man was inspired over the internet. this morning, confirmation that a 15-year-old boy arrested outside philadelphia last month is accused of planning an isis-inspired attack on the pope. reports say the plan had been to target the pope in his history-making tour. a bulletin said including multiple attackers, firearms and explosives. that bulletin reportedly said the minor obtained instructions and spreading them through social media. in new york, officials are already gearing up for an unprecedented security test. >> ied explosion. >> reporter: large screens at many headquarters showing many high priority concerns in an exercise by homeland security. >> this event is going to be the largest security challenge that the department and the city ever faced. >> reporter: the papal visit coincides with the 70th anniversary of the united nations to bring 170 of the world's leaders to the city at the same time. >> we can say safely we have never seen anything like this. we look forward to it. >> reporter: this latest arrest illustrates how isis social media is reaching young people, even inspiring them to attack the pope while he is in the u.s. now, like the vatican, new york authorities saying there is no credible threat against the pope. some reports this morning saying that the plot by this young man alleged as it is was really aspirational. meanwhile, the vatican saying that it fully expects the president to meet the pope's plane as he lands in d.c. pope francis arriving in the u.s. for the first time. ari? >> keir simmons, thank you. straight ahead, more 2016 politics. spotlight on hillary clinton. latest polling showing that the e-mail problems persisting. we have everything you need to know about the controversy answered in, yes, six questions or less. we'll be back in three. [ male announcer ] whether it takes 200,000 parts, ♪ 800,000 hours of supercomputing time, 3 million lines of code, 40,000 sets of eyes, or a million sleepless nights. whether it's building the world's most advanced satellite, the space station, or the next leap in unmanned systems. at boeing, one thing never changes. our passion to make it real. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] everything kids touch at school sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. you handle life; clorox handles the germs. you handle life; hey babe, last one home cooks? ♪ ♪ ♪ another tie. order in? next time i drive. the right-sized nissan rogue. ♪ a new test with pwe rented this resort, hid smelly objects all over each villa and plugged in febreze. then real people were asked to stay for a long weekend. would they smell anything? the room itself was like [sniff] ahhh. feels like someone has pumped fresh oxygen into the room. on the last day we revealed everything. oooooohwoww. we were sitting right on it. febreze is stunningly effective. continuously eliminate odors for up to 45 days break out the febreze you plug in [inhale + exhale mnemonic] and breathe happy. we are back with news out of congress that could impact the 2016 race. number two republican in the senate calling for a special counsel at doj to oversee the investigation into hillary clinton's e-mail. texas senator cornyn appealing to attorney general lynch for a review in a new letter today. clinton spoken about the issue, of course, repeatedly. she apologized and polling suggests it's hurting the candidacy and there's a huge gulf on the basic facts of this e-mail story, some republicans claim these are indictable offenses and democrats say the real scandal is the double standard for the lawful actions. our goal for our news report right now is to give you everything you need to know an this story with an objective expert and i promise we're going to do it in six questions or less if the control room does tell me we're out of time. let's get right to it. expert correspondent is josh gorsteen for politico on this story from the start. question number one, why is this still a story? >> i think it's a story because the process of releasing clinton's e-mails for one thing is going to play out for another five months or so at least through january and we will have monthly releases pursuant to a court order of big chunks of the e-mail and guarantees tugged back into the news on top of that an ongoing investigation by the fbi of the class if ied information that might have been in these e-mails so there are a number of factor that is really keep pulling it into the news and are going to keep it in the news all the way through the political season. >> and number two, did she break the law or policy? >> well, i actually think she did break the basic policy of the state department and the obama administration. the state department did have a rule on the books saying you were supposed to use official e-mail for the day-to-day business. whether she broke the law is a much harder question. certainly not the kind of thing that people are routinely prosecuted for unless you consider this to be stealing government property. it does seem somewhat different and i would say probably not on the law front unless some more facts come the light we don't know about at this point. >> the doj said she is not a target of investigation of law breaking. question number three, do other officials do this? >> other officials do do this. past secretaries of state do this. colin powell had a private e-mail account and write proud of it. he thought he was tugging the state department into the computer age. almost everybody has a personal e-mail account. what was a little surprising in hillary clinton's case was that her personal account was her sole account. she did not have a state department work account for her business. pretty much all the staffers had that. i think almost every other state department official so in that respect for this administration it may have been a unique set-up. >> question number four here, you have the freedom of information suits. you mentioned them briefly. now these are by and large private party suits, not the government. private parties trying to get the e-mails under existing law. how will the soouits end? >> probably when there aren't enough documents to be going through and of the moment the issue is hillary clinton has given what she says are the work-related e-mails back to the state department and being processed and will continue to be until the beginning of next year. but the question is, what about the e-mails she says were private? the state department, the justice department seem to be saying take her word on that. the people who are litigating the cases largely conservative groups and media organizations may not be satisfied with that approach and not taking her word on it, is there still a digital trail here to follow? do her allegedly personal e-mails exist on a server or a back-up system? we don't know the answer to that at this point. >> and then the more serious and unpredictable legal part is a federal investigation. how will that end? >> that's tricky. i think it's hard for the feds, fbi to avoid converting it into a criminal preliminary inquiry if not preliminary investigation. it would probably focus on the people who were sending her e-mails if it turns out that secret or top secret information was sent to her on an unclassified account. is that something that happened by accident? did someone do that inadvertently because they were mixed up or confused over did intentionally or deliberately? i think that's unlikely. >> you are saying from your reporting you're saying that the potential criminal act there would be someone else in government knowingly sending their classified information to her in an unsecure way? >> right. if you have a classified computer on the desk and you can't read off the classified one and type it in on the unclassified one and if somebody did that intentionally as opposed to accidentally, you could conceivably see that being investigated. whether it would be prosecuted as a one-off act, i have never heard of anything like that prosecuted as a one-off act absent another suspicion of something of espionage or intentional media leaks. >> we promised six questions. i did a follow-up on number five and to be clear, this is technically the seventh question and the final one to get to which is, more broadly, as someone who covers the white house and has followed this, how much is this really hurting her politically? does it matter to normal voters, apolitical people, the non-beltway crowd? >> i think to some people. there are obviously folks who remember the scandals, the impeachment era of her husband's presidency and any time you have this sort of discussion with discussions of unethical activity out there in the media, i think there is an element of fatigue where people wonder, gee, are we really wanting to go back into this? sometimes not totally fair and i think it is hurting with some voters. you may see them experting with bernie sanders or others. whether they come back to her fold in the next few months we'll have to see. i think there's some chance they will if they don't like what they're seeing elsewhere. >> all right. josh, we did it. thank you for the reporting. >> okay, ari. any time. all right. next up, politics to the mob -- >> to success. >> just getting started. >> boom! >> notorious boston mobster whitey bulger's story hits the big screen. the next guest say it is web of intrigue behind the man is where it's at. are looking at two airplane fuel gauges. can you spot the difference? no? you can't see that? alright, let's take a look. the one on the right just used 1% less fuel than the one on the left. now, to an airline, a 1% difference could save enough fuel to power hundreds of flights around the world. hey, look at that. pyramids. so you see, two things that are exactly the same have never been more different. ge software. get connected. get insights. get optimized. hey! let me help with that. 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(softly) ♪safelite repair, safelite replace♪ >> i have it on very good authority, that he's planning to have you murdered. >> is that so? and how does he plan to achieve that? >> that's the kind of information that my side gets, and that's the kind of information that we can provide. >> do you know what i do to rats? >> it ain't ratting, jimmy. it's an alliance. >> an alliance between me and the fbi. >> no, between you and me. >> an alliance, the intrigue, this friday johnny depp takes on the persona of the most infamous mobster, whitey bulger, in the new movie "black mass," the true story of a gangster and his alliance with the federal government. t.j. english goes around bulger the man to look at the culture of collusion that created this king pin. he interviewed former bulger associates, fbi agents, as well as jurors from his trial, and the book is, "where the bodies are buried." joining us here, arthur t.j. english. what do you mean it was bigger than the man? >> well, long before whitey bulger came on the scene as a gangster in boston, this collusion between the criminal justice system and criminals had been ongoing, at least since the mid 1960s when j. edgar hoover created the informant program. bulger's partner had been a top informant long before bulger was. and in the '60s, there was a gangster named joe barboza, who cooperated with the government. he was sort of a precursor to bulger in some ways. he took the stand in a capital murder case and fingered four innocent people for a crime they didn't commit. and the government knew it. it was known all the way up to j. edgar hoover. this became the dirty secret of that jurisdiction for many generations after that. we wouldn't know about that until the '90s when bulger went on the run and a lot of this dirty history came out. so this tradition of using gangsters in the way that bulger was used was established in the era before bulger and it reached deep into the system, beyond the fbi, into the prosecutor's office, all the way to the department of justice in washington, d.c. >> how did he figure out he could make this work or bend, as you say this precedent toward the criminal enterprise he wanted to run, while basically the feds were protecting him? >> many of the same fbi agents who handled joe barboza in the '60s and early '70s passed the torch on to new fbi agents who recruited bulger, through steve fleming, who had been an informant, who knew the benefits of that. his brother had been exonerated in a murder that he had committed. he also had been an informant. there were a lot of informants. i think steve phlegmy played a role in convincing bulger that this was a license to steal. that you entered into a relationship with government, and they will take care of you, because they took care of joe barboza, and they took care of other criminals that were in this kind of arrangement. >> what do you say to the question of people who look at this and think, why is this necessary? if the feds have the power, they have the guns, they can put people away, why should they work so closely for so long with a gangster and mass murderer, when they could turn on him, or presumably enforce the law without his collusion? >> right. well, this goes to the theory of the use of informants. when this program was created by hoover, the idea was to bring the organization down from within, that you would find a high-ranking member of the organization, not the boss, because you wanted somebody who could testify upward, not downward. so the idea was, you got people -- and they often recruited criminals who were believed to be the most hard core killers, that no one would believe would be informants. whitey bulger said the reason he never worried about being found out as an informant, is because no one would believe it. so the government, the criminal justice system has become addicted to this kind of investigative technique, of using informants in big cases. >> as a short cut? >> no, i think it's -- you can make cases with informants. you can make cases and you can also gather intelligence by having informants within a criminal organization. i see the value of it. it makes sense. and particularly when you're trying to do a rico case, a big sprawling case, you need to get inside of the organization. >> let me ask you on a lighter note, some of your books were found inside whitey bulger's apartment. what do you make of that? >> well, you know, i write these books with an attempt to bring a certain amount of authenticity to the work. so that the idea that someone who's living that life and is a criminal is reading these books and finding some value in these books, i choose to see that as a form of flattery. that that book would have some meaning to him in that way. bulger was known to be a reader. he read a lot of books. he read war histories. and he read true crime books, particularly ones in which he was featured. he seemed to have an interest in staying up on how he was portrayed in the public. >> well, he'll probably be interested in this one. >> he will be. >> t.j. english, we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that's it. we'll have more on the 2016 race as well as a report on the deadly weather and the latest on the unfolding migrant crisis, all straight ahead. today, jason is here to volunteer to help those in need. when a twinge of back pain surprises him. morning starts in high spirits but there's a growing pain in his lower back. as lines grow longer, his pain continues to linger. but after a long day of helping others, he gets some helpful advice. just two aleve have the strength to keep back pain away all day. today, jason chose aleve. aleve, all day strong. and try aleve pm, now with an easy open cap. when you do business everywhere, the challenges of keeping everyone working together can quickly become the only thing you think about. that's where at&t can help. at&t has the tools and the network you need, to make working as one easier than ever. virtually anywhere. leaving you free to focus on what matters most. who knows, one of these kids just might be the one. to clean the oceans, to start a movement, or lead a country. it may not be obvious yet, but one of these kids is going to change the world. we just need to make sure she has what she needs. welcome to windows 10. the future starts now for all of us. one day away from the republican debate in california, donald trump is getting ready to deliver a speech on national security aboard a battleship. trump says he's defying his critics and here to stay. >> one person, a real loser said, he's a clown, he's a clown. now they're saying, oh, how do we stop this guy? no more clown. i haven't heard the word clown in a while. >> deadly natural disasters in two states. flash flooding kills eight people in utah as a rapidly moving wildfire in california torches hundreds of more homes in businesses. plus, preparations for the pope. new york police commissioner is calling it the largest security challenge this city has