Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20201225

Weve hosted a series of conversations about the truman era, joe, and it makes us realize we should be talking about truman more and its impact on the world stage back then. His presidency and still today. Lets bring in another great panel to continue the timely discussion. Former u. S. Senator, now an msnbc news and msnbc news political analyst, Claire Mccaskill is here. She knows truman more than anybody. Columnist and associate editor for the washington post, David Ignatius and historian and rogers chair at vanderbilt university, jon meacham who unofficially advises president elect joe biden. Jon, you were the first while i was developing, while i was writing the book and sort of developing my thoughts. You were the first to draw parallels between harry truman and joe biden. And saying at the time if joe biden ended up being elected there would be some parallels between the two that were too hard to miss. Yeah, its, you know, a coming to power at a moment where the infrastructure of the world is either under stress and strain or is fully broken. Its a moment of global consciousness, not simply intellectually but in a very tactile sense. The most tactile sense because the pandemic is a global phenomena. Fdr was very articulate in the way that bill clinton and barack obama were articulate and george w. Bush, too, on globalization as an idea and an emerging fact. But the what were living through right now is that this is no longer a subject of kind bluff sky conversations but the world has become so interconnected that our fates are inextricably linked. And truman was a longtime legislator who was, as george w. Bush might say, misunderestimated a great deal until he came to power. And you would not have bet in the same way with, i think, joe biden, you wouldnt have bettany months before harry truman became president that this was going to happen. He was a compromise choice to go on the ticket. And one of the things about predicting history, this is an old observation of arthur schlesingers. He said if you had been in 1940 if you had said that the next three president s would be an obscure senator from missouri, a not very prominent officer in the army and a harvard undergraduate, you would be wrong. So it sort of puts our predictive capacities in context. And you know, willie, you look at Tony Blinkens speech and it becomes very obvious that this vision of the world that began with harry truman and those that were present at the creation is going to continue now again as it did from truman through reagan through bush 41 and now, once again, through joe bidens administration. Yeah, Tony Blinkens speech was a rejection of the isolationism weve seen over the last four years. And David Ignatius, also a rejection of Foreign Policy as financial transaction as so often donald trump has viewed it. Saying were getting ripped off by this country, ripped off by nato and our european allies. Need to pay more, or else. So what did you hear from that team, not just tony blinken but the team we saw this week announced by joe biden. What is that vision of the world which if you just erase the last 3 1 2, four years, is a familiar one to anyone who wihas watched american Foreign Policy. I heard competence, experience. This is a team that joe biden both feels comfortable delegating authority to. I saw a group of people who have a demonstrated capacity to Work Together. Ive covered so many administrations where National Security advisers and secretaries of state, secretaries of defense were at war. They were just so hungry for media attention, for space in the national debate. Thats not going to be true with this team. I think tony blinken said it clearly, as did president elect biden. We want to restore americas alliances which are the heart of American Power. And in a sense, thats going to be easy because we have a world waiting for the return of a more traditional kind of american leadership. I want to note the way its going to be hard. The truth we all know is that you cant turn back the clock. History doesnt move backwards. Its always moving forward. And were in a different place than we were when donald trump became president. Hes done damage to americas standing, to the worlds confidence. But in other ways, the world has moved on. So my biggest hope for this team is that rather than simply try to recreate what was, theyll reimagine what American Power connected to our allies, connected to our values, to traditional themes of american Foreign Policy can be in the future. But if its simply a return to the good old days, thats not going to be enough. And Claire Mccaskill, i talk about your knowledge of truman, affinity for truman. Youre a truman fan because you served in his seat and you know a lot about him. Thank you for hosting the event at the Truman Library for joe. It was incredible. You could really see how engaged you are in sort of the incredible impact his presidency has had on the world. Yeah, i think people first of all, let me say about joe biden and harry truman. I think joe biden is the first president since harry truman that regularly uses the word malarkey. This is true. That is a word right out of trumans vocabulary. Very plainspoken. Very humble at his essence. He was kind of taken by the fact that he had been thrust into this job, and he was, every day, he hunkered down and tried to get to the basics. What would be the best thing for the future of america . He left the presidency as joe knows, and he and i have talked about this, very, very unpopular. But lets think about why he was so unpopular when he left. Lets tick off the list of courageous decisions he made that would have polled probably in the teens. Firing macarthur. Integrating the armed services. The recognition of israel. Pushing very hard a robust Foreign Aid Program at a time that america was still in pain from a bitter depression that left everyone economically insecure. The notion that he was able in a bipartisan way to push that truman doctrine through the senate and through the house was really is astounding in light of how the political winds were blowing at that time. And, joe, i would love you to speak about that and the difference between what joe biden is facing right now in terms of polarization in congress and the skill that truman had actually getting republicans on board for what was not a very popular thing in america. No, and it wasnt a very popular thing in america, especially because we had just gotten out of world war ii, as you mentioned. Americans were exhausted. We had a long history of being isolationists in peacetime. We talked about this, claire, at the Truman Library. Jon and i spoke about this at the smithsonian. And so he had to get a warweary country back on war footing and tell them just two years after winning the great war that the soviet union, our ally, was now our adversary who was trying who had designed on europe, much in the same way that adolf hitler had a decade earlier. And jon meacham, truman did leave with 22 approval rating. Yeah. But as weve mentioned, were all the beneficiaries of that rating. Were all beneficiaries of the toufr tough, unpopular decisions that harry truman made. Its in large part why the American Century exploded in the 40s and 50s and over the next several decades, but it is also why the United States became the indispensable power on the world stage and remained that way. Absolutely. And he to me, the marvelous thing about truman, like lincoln, and i would argue George Herbert walker bush, among others, is they were the right person for the moment. Some of that is retrospective, of course, because we have to tell it, but one of the instincts in human nature is to tell ourselves a coherent story. But the other thing that gives, i think, confidence to president s is the journey of harry truman. And ive talked to more than a few of them who understand that the 22 in real time may be the price to be paid for the monuments of the future. And not that theyre playing for monuments but they are human beings. Everybody wants to be harry truman now. Nobody wanted to be harry truman in 1952 and 53. And i remember going through this with the conversations with george h. W. Bush. Remember, he got 39 of the country to vote to rehire him in 1992. And yet, as the years went by, the decisions he made for the good of the country that were not for his own political gain have come to be seen as the right ones. So when he died, he died much more esteemed figure. Whats the lesson between truman and bush in that sense . The lesson is, do what you think is right. Put the good of the country ahead of your personal gain. And play the long game. I think you have quoted before, truman said he never slept better than when he made a hard decision, but he thought it was the right decision. If you do what you think is right, often, also if you challenge your base of supporters, thats what history remembers. You know, whats the one thing we remember about nixon thats certainly clearly positive . Its the epa, which was against the base of his party and going to china. Lyndon johnson and race. You would not have bet on november 22nd, 1963, that Lyndon Johnson would end up playing that role. And you would not have bet on the evening of april 12th, 1945, that harry truman would become a great global thinker. So the great news is, have president s who want to learn, who are open to new experiences and seeing the world, not only through their own eyes but through the eyes of their adversaries, their allies and their advisers. And have some guts that, in fact, if youre president of the United States, youre not playing just for next week. Youre playing for the next generation. Doris Kearns Goodwin reminded us that lbj once told her he was jealous of truman for being able to sleep at night after those tough decisions. Everybody stay put right here. Were going to continue our conversation. Still ahead, our conversation with former secretary of state Madeleine Albright whose own family felt the impacts ever communeanism europe firsthand. Youre watching a special hour of morning joe. Well be right back. Start with all the moms in the world. Narrow it to all the karate moms. In desperate need of brown sugar. Meaning, you. Youre the one we made mywalgreens for. With pickup in as little as 30 minutes. Hiya get 30minute pickup at walgreens. Com want to sell the best burger add an employee. Ode . Or ten. Then easily and automatically pay your team and file payroll taxes. That means. World domination or just the west side. Run payroll in less than five minutes with intuit quickbooks. Each febreze car vent clip gives you up to 30 days of fresh air. So, you can have open window freshness. Even with all the windows up. Enjoy fresh, any time, with febreze. Its time for theraflu hot liquid medicine. Powerful relief so you can restore and recover. Theraflu hot beats cold. Our objective in the world is peace. Our country has joined with others in the task of achieving peace. We know now that this is not an easy task or a short one. But we are determined to see it through. Both of our great Political Parties are committed to working together, and i am sure they will continue to Work Together to achieve this end. We are prepared to devote our energy and our resources to this task because we know that our own security and the future of mankind are at stake. Right here, i want to say that no one appreciates more than i the bipartisan cooperation in Foreign Affairs which has been enjoyed by this administration. We are back with a special hour of morning joe. Joe, you listen to that speech right there, that was the state of the Union Address in 1950 delivered by president truman talking about bipartisanship. Were starting now during this biden transition to hear echoes of that. A return to some monikum of bipartisanship. Is it safe to think we can achieve that with joe biden and his relationships in the senate . I dont think its naive at all. For those who think its impossible to strike a bipartisan coalition, go back to where harry truman found himself in 1947 when i write about dean atchison receiving the two notes from the British Ambassador informing the United States they could no longer defend greece or turkey against soviet aggression and that, if the United States didnt get involved, not only in those two countries but also in stemming the tide of communism across all of europe that freedom was at risk. Western civilization was at risk. Well, when truman got those notes in early 1947, the Republican Party had just taken control back of the United States senate and the house of representatives for the First Time Since Herbert Hoover was routed by fdr. I dont think anybody thats read history of fdrs administration would consider fdr to be especially gracious to the republican minority. And so they were chafing under fdr and were ready to show some independence. The last thing they wanted to do was help another democratic president , especially in the field of Foreign Policy. And yet, David Ignatius, truman immediately started talking to arthur vandenberg. He immediately started talking to republicans as Walter Isaacson mentioned, people in the Truman Administration at the end of the day would get in their cars late at night. They would drive over to the chairman of Foreign Relations townhouse in washington and they would talk to vandenberg and update him with what had been moving on in the day. And because he built that relationship, vandenberg proved to be a crucial bridge between harry truman and the rest of the Republican Party. And this was a Republican Party that had been isolationists. Had told Woodrow Wilson just flat out, no, were not going to be engaged in europe and the rest of the world and the league of nations after world war i. But truman, being a creature of the United States senate, like joe biden being a creature of the United States senate, knew that in the words of bismarck that politics was the art of the possible. The art of the attainable. The art and i love this of the next best thing. And thats something that joe biden understands as much as anybody in washington, d. C. Joe, as you explain in your book, truman knew from the start that he had to reach out. That he was not well known. Joe biden has a much easier time of it. Hes been experienced in government. Knows a wide range of people at home and abroad. When Franklin Roosevelt died, sailors at sea on our fleet in the pacific wept bitterly thinking that the war might never be won. Japanese propaganda announced that, at last, victory was possible because the Great American leader, Franklin Roosevelt, was gone. And harry truman knew that he had, from the beginning, to reach out and build a national consensus. And ive always thought, joe, this is one of the things i love about your book. You illustrate the way in which the internationalism that comes from a heartland from places like missouri, from the arkansas of William Fulbright later, the montana of mike mansfield. That internationalism has a resonance throughout the country and throughout the world. And i think that biden, although hes a creature of the east coast, has that basic bedrock american feel. And i hope that his instinct is to reach out as trumans was to republicans in the house and senate. Hes better equipped than any democrat who could have been president to do that. And the question is whether the republicans are ready to take him up on it. Vandenberg and other republicans, as you say, have a lot to lose. They wanted power again. They didnt want to share power. But truman made them understand that americas interests had to come first, and thats what you hope above all joe biden will be able to communicate and the people like Mitch Mcconnell even will be able to understand and embrace. Claire, we actually dont know yet who is going to control the senate as we wait for the two runoff elections in the state of georgia. But is it powerful that joe biden served so long with so many of those senators . Are personal relationships that meaningful in getting things done . Will Mitch Mcconnell suddenly come to the table with joe biden in a way that maybe he wouldnt with nancy pelosi . How much do you see the dynamic in congress changing if you think it will at all . Well, if anybody can do it, it would be joe biden. You know, i remember back in the obama administration, and i remember when there was a time to count noses and twist arms on votes. And for barack obama calling senators was like telling him to eat his spinach. This was not his favorite thing to do, to backslap and talk and call and, you know and frankly ever go up to the hill. On the other hand, joe biden did that job a lot for barack obama. He loves the personal relationships he developed in the senate. Most of the senators in powerful positions, those in leadership, those that are ranking members and chairs, regardless of who has the majority, have known joe biden for decades, and they really like him. Hes a nice guy. And he will reach out personally to them. Now if they rebuff him, if he publicly tries so hard, i think it makes it very difficult for them politically. And theyve got six seats up in two years that arent going to be a walk in the park for Mitch Mcconnell and his republican caucus. So i am not sure that Mitch Mcconnell will be as cooperative as we all hope. But if anybody can figure out the right combination to move this gridlock, it would be joe biden. We should point out that a lot of those old friends in the senate havent even publicly acknowledged that joe biden is president elect. Maybe it gets better from here. Claire mccaskill, David Ignatius, jon meacham, thank you for joining us for this special hour of morning joe. Coming up, pulitzer prizewinning historian doris Kearns Goodwin wrote the book on leadership. She joined our conversation along with longtime diplomat Madeleine Albright. That conversation next on morning joe. Is now a good time for a flareup . Enough, crohns. For adults with moderate to severe crohns or ulcerative colitis, stelara® can provide relief, and is the only approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc. You, getting on that flight . Back off, uc. Stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. Before treatment, get tested for tb. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flulike symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. Rpls, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. Some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. Lasting remission can start with stelara®. If youve been financially impacted by covid19, janssen may be able to help. Recommercials witht exciting stunts. So to help you remember that Liberty Mutual customizes your Home Insurance, heres something you shouldnt try at home. Look, Liberty Mutual customizes Home Insurance so we only pay for what we need. Its pretty cool. That is cool grandma very cool. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. As amy first jober, is to care for derek. Everything i do is for him. When i moved to this apartment after six months, we need to connect with the world. I use the internet to keep him in the language, because thats the way to connect to my familys traditions. He has to know where he comes from. We need internet essentials. Theres no excuse to not get connected. In our own time weve seen brave men overcome obstacles that seem insurmountable and forces that seem overwhelming. Men with courage and vision can still determine their own destiny. They can choose slavery or freedom, war or peace. I have no doubt which they will choose. The treaty we are signing here today is evidence of the path they will follow. If there is anything certain today, if there is anything inevitable in the future, it is the will of the people of the world for freedom and for peace. Nato just got larger. Tonight, there are three new members, all of whom used to be on the other side. Secretary of state Madeleine Albright welcomed natos newest members in independence, missouri, the birthplace of harry truman who was president when nato was founded. The Czech Republic, poland and hungary were part of the powerful sovietled alliance. The warsaw pact. That became history when the cold war ended along with the old soviet union. And today, poland, hungary and the Czech Republic became the newest members of nato. Welcome back. Weve been looking at the presidency of harry truman through the lens of the current government in washington. President truman understood what donald trump has not understood. That politics is the art of the possible, the attainable. The art of the next best. Here now is part of our conversation with somebody else who understood that, former secretary of state Madeleine Albright and president ial historians Michael Beschloss and doris Kearns Goodwin. Secretary albright, i just wanted to get your thoughts as i heard tony blinken talking about his stepfather escaping the holocaust and falling to his knees in front of American Tank and africanamerican soldier coming out of it and tonys stepdad saying, god bless america. The only three words he knew. And i thought about you and your family escaping hitlers grasp. I thought about dr. Brzezinski. I thought about mrs. Brzezinski, and i know it would have been such a moving moment for your dear friend. Im curious what your thoughts were as you heard tony repeat that remarkable story. Well, i was deeply moved because tonys story and his familys story is so remarkable and it makes him appreciate even more the incredible job that he is about to step into. And my thoughts were how grateful i am to america because we came in november 1948, and harry truman was my First American president. And i also so remember being a little girl in london all during world war ii. And when the americans came, what a difference it was to see the yanks walking through london and knowing what had happened in terms of america helping to save europe from the horrors of fascism. Could you talk about what this moment means to you, seeing america once again getting engaged on the world stage when you were secretary of state and throughout your entire life . Youve been such a champion, just like dr. Brzezinski was. Yet, you were such a champion for the promotion of American Values across the globe. And standing up to autocrats, standing up to tyrants, believing that america was the indispensable power. What does it mean for us to be back to where we have been since 1947 . I think it is so important, joe and mika, because we know what a difference it makes when america is not just present but partners with other countries who have similar values in order to make the world a better place for all those people who want to live in freedom. And so it means an incredible amount to see that we are back. And that we are back with a team of people that truly understand what americas position in the world needs to be. Weve been awol. And its been terrible. And we need to restore our standing and our reputation and understanding what america means in terms of values and working with others. So i am very hopeful for this administration. They have a very difficult job ahead of them because the last four years have been a disaster. And it means rebuilding in a very different kind of situation, but i think theyre a Terrific Team being led by president elect biden whom i know very well and has a very much a disposed way of dealing with people as partners and listening and not bossing everybody around. And doris Kearns Goodwin, as we speak with hope about the incoming administration, it is so important to remind our viewers that the words that we heard yesterday could have come from the lips of a secretary of state who worked for any republican or Democratic Administration between harry truman and barack obama. But you just look, one of the things that was so inspiring about Harry Trumans leadership in the cold war is that he built an architecture, this international construct that every president that followed him through Ronald Reagan and george h. W. Bush, they followed, and there was this seamless passing of the torch between one administration to another, between one group of diplomats to another group of diplomats who understood what americas role was in the world. And we are actually it seems that we are once again reconnecting with that proud heritage. You know, it also seemed that once again were reconnecting with a team thats going to be strong minded, people who are willing to speak their mind, question assumptions and argue. And thats whats so great about the harry truman team as you portray in your book. Look at general marshall. Theres this great story when he was a young general. He was in fdrs office. And fdr is presenting some pet project and everybody else is going along and fdr says to marshall, youre not nodding your head. He said, well, i dont agree with you at all, mr. President. Everybody thought, heres the end of your career. He lifts him up 25 notches to become the cheefr ief of staff. Thats what we saw. Thats what we saw in bidens team yesterday we saw in Harry Trumans team. What fun it must have been to live with this man. I choose the people i write about because i want to live with them and harry truman is somebody, god, id love to live with him. I went to his house not long ago and they told this great story. Hed come back from being president and was sitting, reading. Who cares if he went to college because he was always reading and somebody knocks on the door who needs help. His car has broken down. He lets them in. As the guy is leaving, he just stares at harrys face. He said you look like that sob harry truman. What does harry truman say . I am that sob harry truman. Greater. Want to sell the best burger add an employee. Ode . Or ten. Then easily and automatically pay your team and file payroll taxes. That means. World domination or just the west side. Run payroll in less than five minutes with intuit quickbooks. Since youre heading off to dad. I just got a zerowater. But weve always used brita. Its two stagefilter. Doesnt compare to zerowaters 5stage. This meter shows how much stuff, or dissolved solids, gets left behind. Our tap water is 220. Brita . 110. Seriously . But zerowater let me guess. Zero . Yup, thats how i know it is the puresttasting water. I need to find the receipt for that. Oh yeah, you do. See yourself. Welcome back to the mirror. And know youre not alone because this. Come on jessie one more. Is the reflection of an Unstoppable Community in the mirror. Welcome back to this morning joe special putting a spotlight on the presidency from harry truman to joe biden. Here now is more of our conversation with former secretary of state Madeleine Albright and Michael Beschloss and doris Kearns Goodwin. We all remember the story, Michael Beschloss, the morning after the 1948 election where he somebody gives him a copy that he holds up that says dewey defeats truman. But we dont hear as much about what truman did the night before along to doris point. Harry truman was being told by all of the experts, by all of the pundits that he had lost the race, that dewey was going to win. What did harry truman do . He got a sandwich, poured him a glass of milk, had his sandwich, drank his milk, went to sleep. And when he woke up they were like, mr. President , you won. And he had just pulled off the greatest upset in the history of american politics, but as doris said, the guy went to sleep thinking, you know what . I did my best. If i win, i win. If i lose, i lose. Thats an incredible quality for any president to have. It is, joe. And i love the book. Thank you. Its a gift right now. We are watching freedom being saved for our eyes right now. So this could not be a better moment for you to give us this great gift. And, yeah, another thing that truman had was, forgive me for saying this, i dont think doris will disagree, he had a sense of history. Never had a college education. Family couldnt afford it. Truman was probably better read in president ial history than almost any other president. Truman used to say he couldnt imagine how anyone could be president of the United States without being interested in history. Can you imagine if he came back during the trump years and saw a president who could care less . Truman said, not every reader will be a leader, but every leader has to be a reader. And he said, you know, this is my paraphrasing, i dont know how i could have gone through things like the threat of the soviets in 1947 or what to do about the atom bomb or firing macarthur if i had not read books and histories that dealt with general jackson, Abraham Lincoln. His Favorite Book was a gift from his mother, published in 1895, it was called i apologize for this title great men and famous women. 1895. The author thought only women could only be famous, not great. And the subtitle was from nebuchadnezzar to bernhart. It covered a wide swath of human decisions. He said i would think back to what lincoln or jackson or others did, and it was never an exact parallel, but it would give me an idea how to operate as president when i had to make tough decisions with fragmentary information, sometimes ten Big Decisions at once. Sometimes i was tired. He said the only users manual youve got is to know what worked in history. Secretary albright, joes book is about shaping a new world after world war ii. And thats what truman started. In some ways, as you pointed to earlier, joe bidens job now is to restore that world. So as someone who has been secretary of state, who has been in all of those rooms with all of those World Leaders and crisscrossed the globe, where do you begin on day one in terms of strengthening those alliances again and showing americas commitment to the world . How do you start . I really do think we begin by understanding that we have to dig out of a time when we didnt respect our allies and friends, and i think that its going to be very important to deliver the right messages that we want to work with them on solving the problems of the 21st century world and to really look at what Public Service is about and how we are going to work with everybody. And i think that message is going to be delivered, and it is going to be delivered by making also Foreign Policy less foreign by focusing on the covid tragedies that have gone on and then working on issues together on making the world healthier and the Climate Change and understanding that we operate within a very different world. And i think harry truman did understand. By the way, im very proud of the fact that we renamed the state Department Building the harry s. Truman building in order to recognize what he had done. And so all those people will be operating out of a building in honor of harry truman, and following some of the things that he did in terms of establishing the things you write about, joe, in terms of how the truman doctrine came together, the establishment of nato, understanding that we have to operate with other countries as partners. And i think i was very proud, frankly, that i was able to do the first succession to nato at the Truman Library signing on a desk of Harry Trumans because so much of what he did is something that has to be revived in terms of how one treats ones allies and friends and tells it like it is and develops functioning relationships abroad, but also respects the people who work for him. And filling that building at the pentagon and the white house and all, all of them to Michael Beschloss point, we will have doris Kearns Goodwin, great men and great women, because joe biden is certainly not afraid of putting people around him who challenge him, people from different points of view, and different experiences. Exactly. Thats what you want. You want to bring a different set of understandings of the world, different perspectives. One of the things that Teddy Roosevelt worried about was that democracy would be threatened if people began reviewing each other, thinking of each other as the other. So the more you have people around you who bring different experiences right within you, just like lincoln did, it wasnt just his team of rivals. He brought people who had different factions in the north. Some were radical, some moderate, some conservative. And then you fight within there and become a family team when you project yourself on the outside world. And you bow tknow the president getting the best advice. Its never the leader alone. Thats why that combination of humility and confidence matters. You may make mistakes. You need people but confidence to know when you make the decision youve listened to those people and youre making the best possible decision in the least possible time you can make it. Its exciting. Its exciting to see a new world order forming and to go back to old harry truman and see that old order that was built up step by step as you describe in the book. Doris, can you explain, try to help me understand something . So harry truman graduated from Spalding Commercial College in kansas city. He went on to be a Foreign Policy lead or the world stage. Joe biden, of course, was offended with the suggestion that only Ivy League Grads should be president of the United States throughout the campaign. He talked about that. Hes going to be the first nonivy League President since Ronald Reagan who went to Eureka College and knew his way around the global stage as well. And the domestic stage. But lbj, a man, obviously, that you knew a great deal about and wrote so eloquently about, another man who wasnt a harvard or yale man. He went to southwest texas teachers college. Can you have you thought what it was about these men with modest educations . What it was about them that made them so much more effective with lbj it was working congress, same with harry truman and Ronald Reagan. What was it about these men with modest educations that were so effective . And those three gentlemen, probably three of the most effective president s of the last 75 years. Its a great question, joe. I think in some ways, you take lincoln and then you take harry truman. Never having had that college education, they were lifelong learners which meant they are reading, thinking, learning the entire time. Not as if the clock struck 12 00 when you graduate from a place like harvard or yale. And with lbj his father said, youll brush up against the grindstone of life. Thats more important than whatever College Experience you went to. So that means you just keep learning. Lbj learned from people. He had those congressmen over to his senate and Office Buildings and to the mansion night after night after night. They would have dinner with him. Hed learn from them, listen to them. The answer is you dont think youre suddenly educated because you went to an ivy league school. You think, im going to keep doing this the rest of my life and those people will catch way up. Teddy roosevelt was reading Abraham Lincoln in the middle of a coal strike because he wanted to know as you were saying before, how did lincoln handle a difficult situation. Theres so much to learn. This is from michael, too, from history. You learn from your parents and grandparents. Why would you not learn from the other president s who went through triumph and tragedy and theyve been through similar situations like your own. The fact you keep learning and its Lifelong Learning is the most important thing. Youve chosen a great guy to write about. I would have loved to have lived with him for a period of years. It would have been fun. So youve done it for me. Thank you. Yes, he has. Michael beschloss, just to bring things up to current day, where are we right now . I mean, its a huge question, but you look at the sort of continuum of history. The country has been so rattled, turned oup si eed upside down ot four years under donald trump. How do we stabilize again . Is it too much to ask one man, president elect biden, to to as president elect biden to do that . Well, willie, as you know, we have got a system that very much depends on president ial leadership. Look at everything thats happened in the last four years, just because of the deficiencies and foibles of one person, donald trump. You know, life would have been different during the last four years had it been otherwise. So president ial leadership helps. But im of the view that we have just been through a terribly close call. We are being untied from the railroad tracks. Had donald trump been reelected we would have been talking about the danger of next year we wont be living in the democracy that we recognize and our children will be in danger. Newspapers might be in jeopardy of being closed down. And a president surrounded by even more yes men than before, living in a world of greater and greater delusion. That would have been dangerous for all of us. So now were in a position not only as joe biden there as the person who is delivering us from four years of donald trump, but this is someone who has 50 years of experience, you know, in working in democracy. It all comes naturally to him. He knows all those people we saw on the stage yesterday. He loves to see them fight with one another. He knows that the founders wanted advisers to a president or members of congress to fight with one another because they knew the result of that is the best policies. Thats the way you do it, not to be surrounded by yes people. Great thanks to Madeleine Albright and also Michael Beschloss and doris Kearns Goodwin. Thank you so much. We will be right back. Win. Thank you so much. We will be right back. Hey, welcome back to morning joe. Thank you so much for being with us. I just want to give you this this is a reminder. We still have so much to be thankful for in this country. We have been through a very difficult year, but there have many times when you have reached out to me or talked to me and asked mika and me are with we going to be okay. One of the reasons that i believed that we were, one of the reasons i had so much confidence in the strength of our institutions and the goodness of this country, is because i read about president s like harry truman. I read about American History so much and have seen time and time again that this country has faced terrible obstacles and we have gotten through them and we have become better every time because of the challenges that we faced. Whats been true over the past 240 years i hope to god will be true of this country over the next four years. Thank you so much for being with us. We greatly appreciate it. We he so you on monday morning at 6 00 a. M. Eastern time. But for now, stay with msnbc for all the breaking news. Is now a good time enough, crohns. For adults with moderate to severe crohns or ulcerative colitis, stelara® can provide relief, and is the only approved medication to reduce inflammation on and below the surface of the intestine in uc. 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