Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20201016

Conspiracy theory that joe biden orchestrated to have s. E. A. L. Team 6 killed to cover up the fake death of bin laden. Now, why would you send a lie i know that was a retweet. That was an opinion of somebody and that was a retweet. Ill put it out there. I dont get that. Youre the president. Youre not like someones crazy uncle who can retweet whatever. I do a lot of retweets. So if its a retweet, its somehow okay for the president to push bigoted and conspiratorial things to the world . Good morning, its october 15th. We have cohost of show times the circus and executive editor of the recount, John Heilemann. Professor and msnbc political contributor Jason Johnson and nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of way too early, kasie hunt is with us as well. Great to have you all on board. What a night it was last night. I had the ipad, i had the tv. I was listening to both. It was a lot. Mika was there was a lot happening. Willie joe was watching baseball. Mika was so triggered, so triggered. I said im going upstairs. Got to see it all. So willie, you know me, im such a company man. The first thing im going to do is defend nbc. Of course, for people who know me they know its like come on. Everybody is freaked out yesterday about nbc and, okay, thats fine. I was a little freaked out. Like i said, im not a company man. So if you want to be freaked out at nbc and say ugly things about it, even if you make gazillions of dollars off nbc, i dont care. I just want the astros to lose. But what i kept saying to mika but id never tweet no tweeting. Youre the antichrist, how dare you defend nbc. I said to mika, just give him the rope. I dont understand why everybody is freaking out about this because the biggest deficit in Donald Trumps polling over two or three days came after his first debate. Yep. Its not like hes got anywhere to go. The more large audiences see donald trump, the more he loses because the more hes going to squirm away from his bizarre conspiracy theories after four years. He cannot defend what hes done on covid. He cannot defend what hes done on conspiracy theories. He cannot defend what hes done on qanon. Like, all day yesterday, when people were freaking out, i took jack to play basketball. I stayed off of twitter and i didnt want to see the event. Because i knew how it was going to end. Donald trump was going to say really stupid stuff and it was going to hurt him at the poll and then there are three or four clips they would get out of that which people would play all day and guess what . Thats what theyre going to do because when you wont say that the federal government is not run by cannibals and pedophiles, thats probably going to make the evening news. Well, my position yesterday and i understand that people were upset was just wait, just wait and watch. And i think when people did wait and watch, they learned that President Trump as you say, every time he has the stage to himself especially when its just him, hes going to say an hours worth of things that are indictments on him and his administration and just wait and watch how Savannah Guthrie questions him. I think i was vindicated on both of those things. Well go through the clips. You laid out some of it, joe. He wouldnt say when he had a test, if he had a test on the night of the debate. He would not condemn qanon saying i dont know anything about qanon, thats a lie of course. If thats true, his own fbi field offices have said theyre an inspiration for domestic terrorism. He does say he owes the 400 some million dollars, and to whom he wouldnt say to whom. He would not say if he thought roe v. Wade should be overturned. That will come as a surprise to many conservatives. Hes the biggest champion, prolife champion ever. Asked repeatedly he wouldnt answer it. When he was asked in the past, are you prolife or prochoice, oh, yeah, im prolife. No plan to replace the Affordable Care act, as savannah said hes in Court Getting rid of it, including coverage for people with preexisting conditions no plan to replace it. He said were rounding the corner on this disease on the very day that we got the news that almost every state now is experiencing a spike and we know from dr. Fauci and his own task force that this thing is roaring back with a vengeance in the fall and the winter. So yes, give donald trump the hour and hell give you what he gave us last night. So mika, give us your thoughts. Well, i think there was a lot of concern for a lot of reasons about the timing and whatever but i will say this. What concerned me was having watched the first debate and seeing how terribly executed it was, technically, on every level, i think what happened here was a success because the president was held to account. He was given time to answer questions, youre right, joe, you can call it rope, but savannah held him to account. She jumped on almost everything he said and tried to balance it out with the facts or to press him on it. Also, technically, the audio was strong, savannahs voice was as loud as trumps she was allowed to use her voice and the audiences questions were focused, balanced and relevant so i was actually very pleasantly surprised at how well this went after seeing the debate, the first debate debacle which was really in many ways a disservice to the country. Because it was so poorly executed and the president ran over everybody and everything and he wasnt held to account. You know, it may have been bad for him in the long run but in terms of execution, i think the media and the people in the audience did a great job last night. Savannah asked President Trump about his own bout with covid, with trump revealing that he may have had some sort of lung infection while sick with the virus and the president refused to answer a key question regarding his own testing. Did you test the day of the debate . I dont know. I dont remember, i test all the time but i can tell you after the debate like i guess a day or so, i think it was thursday evening, maybe even late thursday evening i tested positive. Thats when i first found out back to the debate. Because the Debate Commission rules it was the honor system youd come with a negative test. You say you dont know i had no problem. I test all the time and they did you take a test though on the day of the debate . You ask the question, i take a test and i leave and go about my business. Did you take a test on the day of the debate . Probably did. I took a test the day before and the day before and i was in great shape and i was in great shape for the debate and it was only after the debate like a period of time after the debate that i said, thats interesting. They took a test and it tested positive. Just to button up, do you take a test every single day . No, but i take a lot of tests. You dont know if you took a test the day of the debate . Possibly. By the way, before i came up here, i took another test. I have been taking it every day, a deep test, the one they go in both because i wanted to be able if i had not passed that test, i didnt want to come here and expose anybody. And i just think its its just decency to be able to determine whether or not you are youre clear. Im less concerned about me, but the people the guys behind the cameras. The people working in the secret service guys who you drive up with. All those people. So, yes, i believe hell do that. Yeah. Its just about decency. That really does lay it out about as well as it could be laid out. But poor donald, he doesnt know when he took a test. Poor donald doesnt even know how his lungs are. Hes confused. A hypochondriac. I have only eaten with him one time and before his food came out, he had a stack of wipes that he and melania went through. They wiped themselves down and just it was quite an obsessive thing. So im supposed to believe that that guy that was that freaked out about his hands had abnormal citis in his lungs. He doesnt know when he got his last negative test. He doesnt know about the state of his lungs, the health of his lungs. He was tested on debate date. He doesnt know if he was tested on debate day. He doesnt know about qanon. During the debate, we heard he didnt know about proud boys. In his last campaign, he said he didnt know who david duke was. He didnt know about the klan. He didnt know if there was pedophilia ring run by cannibals in the government. A lot of things, mika, that donald trump doesnt know. Yeah. He just seems confused about everything. He is confused. Or lying through his teeth. President trump last night said he denounces White Supremacy but refused to denounce qanon. Let me ask you about qanon. It is this theory that democrats are a satanic pedophile ring and that you are the savior of that. Now, can you just once and for all state that that is completely not true. So disavow qanon in its entirety. I know nothing about qanon. I just told you. You told me, but what you tell me doesnt necessarily make it fact. I hate to say that. I know nothing about it. I do know they are very much against pedophilia. They fight it very hard. But i know nothing about. I they believe it is a satanic couple run by the deep state. Ill tell you what i do know about. I know about antifa and i know about the radical left and i know how violent and how vicious they are and i know how they burning down cities run by the leftists. Real leaders call conspiracy theories conspiracy theories. He may be right. I just dont know about qanon. You do know. I dont know. No, i dont know. I dont know. Lets waste a whole show, you started off with White Supremacy, i do know it. I do hear theyre strongly against pedophilia and i do agree with that. I agree with that. But theyre not a satanic pedophile i dont know that. Why arent you asking me about antifa . Why arent you asking me about the radical left . Why arent you asking joe biden questions about why doesnt he condemn antifa . Why does he say it doesnt exist . Because youre here so cute. Antifa exists. Theyre vicious, theyre violent, they kill people and theyre burning down our cities and they happen to be radical left. Were actually not distracted. Were not distracted. So hes running away, John Heilemann. It is remarkable. I will paraphrase what jake tapper said yesterday about donald trump retweeting that s. E. A. L. Team 6 did not in fact kill bin laden, that bin laden is still alive. Nice to show we can still be shocked by the depths to which this man will go to pick up the most extreme and dangerous people in america. And so in this case, donald trump claims he knows absolutely nothing about qanon. Does not know about this satanic cult of cannibals running the government. But then he goes on and repeats time and again that theyre against pedophilia so he does seem to know about it. But you can go back to the sunday interview he had i believe it was on cnn, right before super tuesday in 2016 where he repeatedly claimed he didnt know who david duke was. He repeatedly claimed that he wasnt going to criticize the ku klux klan because he knew nothing about it. That was of course a lie. He had criticized david duke in the past, even in the 2000 election, but here donald trump lets america know that he is going to offer aid and comfort to a Conspiracy Theory, to a group that our own government, our own fbi says poses a real risk to american safety. Right. You know, joe, good morning, guys. You know, right up there in the pantheon of little bits of wisdom we know about donald trump, you know, everything he says is either projection or confession, he wants credit for everything and takes responsibility for nothing. So all those fall into the second category. Anything thats a negative thing and that trump is confronted with, anything hes associated himself with, anything thats on the face of it is terrible, qanon, pick your pestilence, that hes associated himself with, profits from, promotes, all of a sudden this guy loves twitter, twitter is the only way i can reach the people, joe. He loves his following on twitter but somehow retweets well, just i retweet a lot of stuff, i take no responsibility for it. Anything hes promoted or profited from some negative force in american society, he says i dont know anything about it. I remember i did an interview with him about david duke too and people said they want him to denounce him, a lot of people want you to denounce, hes a former grand wizard of the ku klux klan, he said, fine, ill denounce, ill denounce. He did the same thing with White Supremacy with Savannah Guthrie, fine, ill denounce White Supremacy, ill denounce it. All of its so ridiculous and we have become so kind of we have become so inured to it that you see last nights performance if anyone else gave that performance two weeks before election day, wed say that person is a nut, has no chance of being reelected. One of the crazy things about 2020, we become so used to donald trump behaving that way that that performance did not stand out. It was terrible but not extraordinarily terrible. Apart from how Great Savannah was and making the point once again when good journalists give, quote, give a platform who someone who is objectionable, youre not giving them a platform if you hold them to account and ask them tough questions and savannah proved why thats a valuable thing. And donald trump admitted he owes 400 million to someone and he would be happy to divulge to that person who holds that debt is. Thats what good journalists should be following up, that extraordinary statement, donald trump owes someone 400 million and he said it was peanuts last night. Well play that clip in a second, but john, im curious your thoughts. The political impact overall of last night. Well, i think your point at the very beginning is the most important thing. If this election is a referendum, its a problem for donald trump. His main strategic objective has been for months now, particularly in the context of covid is to make it a context of choice. As long as the election is a referendum on donald trump we know what the numbers say about that. We know that president s Approval Rating is basically what theyll get on election day. We know donald trump has never been over 45 . His Approval Rating is in the high 30s to mid 40s and this is a referendum its on donald trump and his handling of covid. Last night it was a discussion of trump, were not talking about an argument hes making about joe biden. Hes not making a good argument or at least one that has traction about biden anyway, but as long as the race is about trump its bad for him strategically. Last night it kept trump in the spotlight. Kept kept the race about him, about his lies, about his evasions, about his associations with forces in American Life that are widely and correctly seen as despicable. Thats all that was last night, so every day of this election that gets burned off the clock where its about trump is a day that donald trump is losing so last night was another day, another news cycle that donald trump lost and he does havent many more. Its not early, its really late and there are historic number of votes being cast every day. Shocking numbers of votes in every state doing early voting and trump has a night like that, obviously bad for him, joe. One more point about q before we move on. The president of the United States has endorsed a qanon candidate in the state of georgia and number two, he cant resist flattery. The story of this qanon conspiracy without getting into it too much is that hes the hero of that story, that hes saving the country from the satanic pedophile ring. Thats why he wont come out and endorse it or criticize it. But back to the question of taxes. Here is President Trump giving his most detailed response to date about the New York Times report on his taxes and his financial status in which he seemed to concede last night that he is in fact some 400 million in debt. Im very underlevered, fortunately. I have a very, very small percentage of debt compared in fact, some of it i did as favors to institutions that wanted to loan me money. 400 million compared to the assets that i have, all of these Great Properties all over the world and frankly the bank of america building in san francisco, i dont love whats happening to san francisco. But i hear you right, it sounds like youre 400 million isnt that much. Office buildings. Are you confirming you owe some 400 million . Im saying that its a tiny percentage of my net worth. That sounds like yes. Were doing things you know, we have given i think its 108 or 112 pages of financial detail and we have to file it as a president , as any politician you have to file. Nobody ever looks at this. When what they do, they see how incredible the company is but more importantly, they see where the debt is. No i dont owe russia money. Its called mortgages. People have any foreign bank, any foreign entity . Not that i know of, because its so easy to solve i will let you know who i owe whatever small amount of money. I want to say two things. Number one, its a very small amount of money. Number two, its very straight. Its very, very straight. But its a tiny percentage of the worth. Did you ever hear the expression underlevered . Im underlevered. Savannah said you can release your taxes and the New York Times is reporting on tax returns that it has viewed. The president went on to say some of his loans were favors to institutions that wanted to loan me the money. He was doing them favors by tank their loans. He could have said, im not 400 million in debt thats ridiculous. He went down the long and winding road, therefore implying that he owes somebody 400 million right now. Yeah. Willie, you know, im old enough to remember the 2012 election and debates where we spent weeks talking about the fact that mitt romney i think it was challenged one of the other candidates saying a 10,000 bet, we were aghast that he treated 10,000 looks like it was nothing. Were at a point that a president who is in debt 400 million says thats peanuts. Well, you have 40 million americans who are out of work. Well, his party refuses to come up with another stimulus package for more people who will be put out of work and out of their homes. It is indicative of sort of the cultlike nature of people who continue to support donald trump. What i thought was particularly compelling also about that number and about that debt and about his inability to give a straight answer is look, you couldnt get a security clearance at the fda if you had 400 million in debt. I have family members in National Security positions, that kind of debt to anybody under any circumstances would not allow you access to any Sensitive Information in the government. So the fact that we have a president who is in that kind of debt and cant trace it and wont reveal the information is yet another sign of a National Security risk he sand the fact that people who are willing to support him, regardless of how his life is completely at odds with the regular people. But i ultimately think in the larger scheme of things, i dont think this town hall is really going to change that much. The people who like donald trump are going to continue to like him, over 18 million americans have already voted. And every time he opens his mouth its not only a reminder of what a bad person he may be or a politician he may be, but it depresses the vote for downballot republicans and he has to explain the president who is completely at odds with regular people. Well, as willie touched on it, he talked about the Health Care Plan or lack thereof. Lets play that right now and well talk to kasie on the other side. This is such a big issue for voters. In point of fact, your administration is about to go to the Supreme Court to argue to throw out the rest of obamacare. Which includes the protections for preexisting conditions. Thats right. So your administration is in court right now, trying to get rid of that protection. In order to replace wit a much Better Health care at a much lower price and always under all circumstances we are going to protect the republicans and i mean, maybe i change the party a lot over the last three years. But we will protect people with preexisting conditions and savannah, what i want to do, get rid of the terrible obamacare i have already done it to a large extent because the individual mandate is gone. That was the you have repealed but you havent replaced. You have been in out of almost four years. You have both houses of congress and senate in republican hands and there is not a replacement yet. Im sorry, but if you look, we had both houses, we got rid of the individual mandate. That could repeal and replace look, we should be on the same side. I want it very simple. We would like to terminate it and we would like to replace it with something much less better and less expensive. However, if we dont succeed we are running the remnants of whatever is left because we took it apart. We are running the remnants of whatever is left much better than the previous administration. Which ran it very badly. If you want any evidence of how intellectually bankrupt this Republican Party is in 2020 look no further than health care. The republicans have been arguing against obamacare for over a decade. They have been promising to replace it with their own plan. A decade. For ten years, they have put no plan out as a party that they all get behind. That they could pass to replace obamacare. And last night donald trump whos been lying through his teeth, of course, because thats what he does. The entire campaign about the coming Health Care Plan. Donald trump last night admitted that he wanted to take away health care for millions. He wanted to take away the preexisting protection that would make Insurance Companies take care of you and your family if you have preexisting conditions and he just wants you to take a leap of faith that theyll figure something out a decade later. They still dont have a plan ten years later. Donald trump has been lying every three weeks in this campaign it seems. Our Health Care Plan is going to be next week. They have no plan that would replace obamacare and mika, again, were a decade in to this. Yeah. Kasie hunt, you know, first of all, theres the conundrum of how exactly you watch two town halls late into the evening after working on capitol hill all day and then get up for way too early with a baby. But thats a longer answer. What is the republican plan to replace . Is there anything in the works in any way . We keep hearing that there will be this replacement. What the heck is it . Well, first of all, mika, friday means more to me than it ever has previously is basically my short answer on your first question. But to answer your other question, joe is right theres no plan. Republicans have had all kinds of time to come up with the plan. The president has had time. The republicans in congress have had time. They tried, john mccain is the one who put his thumb down and said, no, this is a bad idea partly because the plan they were talking about was so half baked that there was no way anyone could really wrap their head around the idea that it would actually help anyone. You know, the policy on this i mean, it just drives me crazy because when people say were going to cover people with preexisting conditions, thats not in jeopardy. But were going to dismantle this law and make it cheaper, you cant do those things at the same time. The thing thats expensive is covering people with preexisting conditions and now this is obviously very popular. It only works economically if everyone is in the system together so that Healthy People are helping those with preexisting conditions. Thats why its so hard to replace this plan. But the other piece of this politically is that joe, this has happened over the ten years, right, democrats had a huge problem with health care when they lost in 2010 in the Tea Party Wave and now democrats are winning on the health care issue. Every time the president says we do support this lawsuit that supports obamacare, theyre saying theyre going to take away your health care, people dont want it, this idea that your preexisting conditions are covered its a pretty dramatic when you think about where we were ten years ago that wasnt the case. Man, people expect it. So for the president to say this makes it really tough for the republicans. As kasie knows, that health care message is being driven up in races across the country, up and down the ballot. To put a pin in this, joe, the president didnt message joe biden last night. Youre in the homestretch of a president ial campaign that you hope might be a choice and the entire night was a referendum on him. Part of that was because savannah had him pinned down all night but he did not draw distinctions on joe biden except on the question of antifa we saw there. But on policy issues he didnt draw a distinction and one other note, the president just retweeted his outrage and his shock at a story provided a link to the news story that news story was from a parody website from the babylon bee and the president is tweeting it out, thinking it was real. Leave it out there. Well, its a very funny website. Very funny. Although i have to go to heilemann. You just oh. Im not finished. Got it. Is that what i say now . So its crazy about health care and John Heilemann, health care helped the democrats run up the biggest land slide in the history of elections two years ago and it will help them again here. We come to the end of another week that hasnt gone well for donald trump. We are 2 1 2 weeks away, 18 days away from the election. Of course people are voting. Millions of people are going out and voting right through in record numbers. You look at the polls, you look at the numbers that were getting early returns from these states on the number of people voting and the what the Party Affiliation is. Where does this race stand 2 1 2 weeks out . I think, joe, it stands you know, where it has stood for months. I mean, one john, john is frozen right now. I used my magical powers so we could go to break. John is frozen and well get back to him right after the break. Still ahead on morning joe the number of new Coronavirus Infections across the United States is surging once again with cases now topping 8 million. Well talk to former fda commissioner from Scott Gottlieb about that. Plus, republican senator ben sasse offers up some blistering words about donald trump. What he had to say in a phone call with constituents. As we go to break, a note that joes new book saving freedom, truman the cold war and the fight for western civilization is coming out november 4th. You can preorder it right now. I november 4th you can preorder it right now. Eliminate who you are not first, and youre going to find yourself where you need to be. The race is never over. The journey has no port. The adventure never ends, because we are always on the way. Joe biden was raised with middle class values. Joe doesnt need to be the center of attention. Or see himself on tv. He has always focused on getting the job done. 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He was the one who said 10 to 14 days of shutdown would fix this and that was always wrong and i dont think the way hes led through covid is reasonable or responsible. Im worried that if trump loses hell take the senate down with him. Im looking at the possibility of a republican bloodbath in the senate thats why i have never been on the trump train. Thats why im not on his Reelection Committee or campaigning for him. Willie, what do you think . Its a full indictment of the trump years in a state that state that donald trump won by 25 points in 2016, but where has that been for the last 3 1 2 years . Yeah. Its nice that if he feels that way that he said that in that call, he was honest about it, but we havent heard that from a guy i know all of us have respected when he comes on this show. Hes an incredibly smart and thoughtful guy and hes been m. I. A. Over the last years. Do you support the reelection, are you going to vote for donald trump given everything you said there or are you republican ben sasse going to support joe biden . Maybe well hear that answer in the next coming days as this audio came out and it was authenticated. But John Heilemann, that was pretty exhaustive list of Donald Trumps failings. Yeah, that excerpt, that audio, in its totality is the story of the Republican Party in the trump era. There is i know joe and mika and you and Mike Barnicle and everyone who comes on this program who does any reporting whatsoever, who talks to people in politics with any degree of comprehensiveness, we have heard republicans say those things in private to us, to each other particularly, for four years. Kasie hunt, i know, shes heard this a million times off the record. Republicans saying exactly those things. Maybe not that comprehensively always, sometimes in a more fragmentary way. Sometimes in less swear words. Not as close to the election day, but we have heard it for four years and then those same people have kept their have kept their mouths shut about what they think about trump in public for four years thats the story of the Republican Party. There are very few there are some, but very few who havent at one time or another voiced sentiments like that. On the mainstream, the nonfar right part of the party, those are common sentiments and had been for four years. And then in public where it counts, they have been unwilling to go on the record and say what they genuinely feel. That is the corruption of the Republican Party there in a nutshell. And kasie hunt, well let you jump in because obviously you hear this every day, but i have heard it every day from friends that used to be a republican with, i used to serve with. They just have contempt for donald trump and yet, when donald trump says the craziest, most bizarre things publicly, they line up with him, shoulder to shoulder, and then the second the cameras are turned off they start attacking him again. And what has changed in ben sasses life . He survived a republican primary and now were in the general election. I think its noteworthy that it was leaked audio, not on camera, a direct decision that would prompt attacks on him from donald trump. He can say i didnt want this out there. But at the same time, we all know you have a call like that with in public i think any of us common sense its possible anyway, that could have been intentional. But i mean, this is going to be the fight that the Republican Party is now going to face in the post donald trump era. Is there still a group of republicans that are willing to say what ben sasse just said there, not in private, not in phone calls, but in public and actually make that case and argument to voters and the reality is people like jeff flake and Susan Collins they got raked across the coals, mocked on twitter, but they were, the reality is they were the only ones saying anything at all about it and they got punished by their voters. So i mean, theyre in an incredibly difficult position still and i think if in fact donald trump loses this election, youre going to see the Republican Party rend itself apart and take sides on this very question. Again, ben sasse, ill speak for myself, i have always liked ben. I always respected him. And im grateful that hes saying what hes saying now, but america sure as hell needed him to say this for four years straight, not just in the 11th hour as the golden carriage is about to turn into a pumpkin. John heilemann, let me get back to the question i had for you before you put the extra quarter in your motels wifi and of course the extra quarter in the bed. I saw that on a simpsons episode, by the way. So give us the state of the race. Where are we right now 2 1 2 weeks out looking out all of the polls, looking at all of the early numbers and the registration advantages for republicans, but the voting advantages for democrats. Its a fairly mixed picture. It does seem if you talk to both campaigns, right now the Biden Campaign is feeling a little bit better. Yeah. As i was going to say before, ethe polling picture has been remarkably stable. And the Biden Campaign has had a smaller, but stable lead in the Battle Ground states. They are stronger in the great lakes states. Michigan, pennsylvania, than they are in the sun belt states although they have had a lead. A small but persistent lead in north carolina, a small but persistent lead in florida. A smaller lead in north carolina. Florida is the second tightest. So thats one thing to say. The second thing to say is, you know, we are seeing this unprecedented, extraordinary surge in early voting. The number, 18 or 19 million votes have been cast by this time, at this time four years ago that number was 120th of that. You had a tiny percentage of the votes that were cast. People are eager to cast their votes, particularly democrats. If we know where the who got a absentee or early ballot, we know the democrats are slumping in the early votes. Theyre making millions its overwhelming. Now that doesnt mean that donald trump wont come back on election day because we know republicans by and large are going to be more inclined to vote on election day. And then theres the last thing. I know i want to say this. You had the tom etzel piece yesterday on the show. Very important in the registration numbers are the big thing thats giving people pause. We have the final florida numbers yesterday. Back when barack obama won, the last time a democrat won florida [ indiscernible ]. John heilemann, cant hear you. Well be watching the circus though this sunday. Just to dissect what he was saying there as he was starting to break up, obviously, democrats are banking a ton of votes right now. And thats making republicans very nervous. I have talked to Republican Leaders across the state of florida. Theyre very nervous about banking in the votes and you say, yeah, but what about election day. They say, listen, you want votes in the bank. And what position would we rather be in . Wed rather be in joe bidens position right now, but going in to election day, with early votes, Hillary Clinton was up 2. 5 . As john was saying at the end, expect a very big surge from republicans on election day and democrats, joe biden heres it really quickly. Just so you know as far as viewing goes, in florida youll know by 7 30 eastern time how a lot of those early votes went because the biggest counties, miamidade, broward, palm beach probably duval. By 7 30, 7 45, theyll be posting the numbers and you will see how big of a lead joe biden was. I would just guess it needs to be it needs to be up there, 4 or 5 in the early votes because expect the donald Trump Supporters to come out en masse on election day. So here are the two candidates on the issue of Wearing Masks. As far as the mask is concerned im good with masks. I tell people to wear masks but just the other day they came out with the statement that 85 of the people who wear masks catch it. Well, they didnt say that. I know that study. Thats what i heard. Thats what i saw. You have so much power and influence as president im all for it. You could you could say put on a mask right now and the university of washington will say you will save lives. And other you have other peoples say different things. Hey, dr. Fauci said dont wear a mask. At first. Then everybody agreed. But then you have a report coming out two days ago that 85 of the people Wearing Masks i looked that report. Its not about mask wearing. It was neutralized. Savannah, were on the same side, wear the mask, im fine with it. Were on the same side. You can go to every governor and get them all in a room as 50 of them and say, ask people to wear a mask. And they dont then i go to every governor i go to every mayor and local official say mandate the mask. This is what you have to do when youre out. Make sure you encourage it being done. The words of a president matter. Absolutely. No matter whether theyre good, bad or indifferent, they matter. When a president doesnt wear a mask or makes fun of people like me when i was wearing a mask for a long time, well, people say it mustnt be that important. While were waiting for a vaccine, you wear this mask, you will save more lives between now and the end of the year than if we had a vaccine. Than if we had a vaccine. Its estimated by every major study done from the university of washington to columbia that if in fact we wore masks, we could save between now and the end of the year 100,000 lives. Avoid lockdowns. Yes. You dont have to lock down if youre wearing the mask. All right. Joining us now, morning joe chief medical correspondent dr. Dave campbell and physician and medical director of the special pathogens unit at the Boston University school of medicine dr. Bedahlia, a medical contributor. As you saw last night, trump equivocates on masks when its important to wear them in the middle of a Global Pandemic when masks can actually bring the death rate down. So well put that aside because we know that to be a fact. But dr. Bedahlia, you were joining over 80 scientists in an open letter against herd immunity. The president seems to be dancing around that issue, an issue that could lead to the deaths of many more americans. Can you tell us about it . Good morning, mika. Yeah. You know, i think the concern for a majority of us who signed the memorandum and authored it in the lancet on thursday, this is sowing more confusion and the stance, the very fringe scientists who are supporting herd immunity through letting infections rip through our society, theyre against lockdowns. Were all against lockdowns. Nobody wants an impact. A social and economic impact. We want to mitigate so we dont get to that point and the exact kind of things you talked about, mask wearing, physical distancing, decreasing crowds but they go beyond that. Not only do they not want lockdowns but we need to somehow artificially separate the 30 from the rest of the 70 despite us sharing the same air, the same households and workplaces. How do we do that . What theyre setting up is a recipe that basically leads to overwhelmed hospitals and rushing us towards the very lockdowns that theyre saying we shouldnt have. So our letter, this memorandum, is really signed by its gathering thousands of signatures over the last couple of days for this reason because what we want to do is now look at whats happening. 40 states with increasing cases. And mika, this is different from what we have seen before in the spring and the summer because this is a generalized pandemic. This is this hospitalizations are geographically widespread. Thats going to pose a lot of challenges to combat this pandemic. Dr. Dave, id love to hear your take on the concept of herd immunity and what the president seems to be edging towards and the cdc did a study on the hot spots around the country. What did you find . Mika, this really ties into the question of herd immunity because this study has now shown that in states across the country, when theres a hot spot, meaning an increasing number in a controlled area, the hot spot starts with younger adults that are under 24, younger teenagers and even kids first becoming positive. Then like we learned in the spring about two weeks later you start to see the older population become positive. Then you see the hot spot. What were learning does tie back into two things that youre just talking about. Mask wear and somehow convincing that often recalcitrant age group we are all aware of which is about 12 to 24 to wear the mask when theyre out. Also to stick with social distancing measures and also we have now learned from dr. Redfield recently and we have seen this from other studies and we have been saying this for a long time. When the front door of your home closes that does not mean youre in a safe zone. So inside the house, inside areas where you have young people and old people and multigenerational families, you really have to be particularly careful about what you do, your behaviors. Even wearing a mask in your house, keeping the older folks away from the younger folks when at all possible. Theres a lot that ties into simply recognizing that americans need to change their behaviors right now and especially we need to enable that younger group, the teenagers, the kids home from college. The young adults, to recognize that theyre a large part of this problem. And they can help a lot, mika. Dr. Bedahlia, yesterday, the United States crossed 8 million covid19 cases. We have reports in the Washington Post that 44 states and the District Of Columbia have higher caseloads than they did in mid september. It seems to a lot of people like you have been on our show describing now with months, what dr. Fauci warned us about back in march and april, this would be a second wave. Maybe this is part of the first wave. But how are you looking at as the weather turns cold again how were approaching this and what it looks like. Whats on the horizon for the country . Good morning, willie. Yeah, you know its the trouble here is, you know, we are now seeing the sustained increase in hospitalizations. So its not just not that theres more testing and we are seeing people who have the disease getting picked up. But we are seeing the results of those who are getting sick end up in hospitalizations. Its really hard in the u. S. , as opposed to europe, that had this large wave and then went down and then came up again. We have always had multiple peaks and high plateaus in between. What were seeing now is exactly that. What could change, what could keep us where hospitals dont get overwhelmed and someone who is part of this who is part of this response and in the spring, i dont want lockdowns because lockdowns mean i walk out and streets are empty and i walk into the hospital corridors and this means the hospital corridors are teeming with sick patients and thats what were trying to avoid. We avoid it with the masking, physical distancing, get the flu vaccine so you dont need to stay in bed. The crowd control. The impacts, the economic and social impacts of Public Health mitigations could have been helped by passed with a public fund. So its also drawing attention away from all of the things that the government could be doing. This administration could be doing to ameliorate the impact of the pandemic. Drs. Dave campbell and nahid bedahlia, thank you very much. Jason johnson, as we look at the final days before the election day, watching trump last night youd almost not think there was a pandemic which is one of the problems there. And definitely there is one given the conversation we had with the two doctors. What are your thoughts as were coming down to the wire here to election day . You know, all of these things, mika, are connected. What we heard ben sasse say is what a lot of republicans are saying at home. They dont like how the president has handled covid, they dont feel safe or secure. The most important number we have had early voting and yes, 18 Million People have voted but the most critical number that has republicans afraid and has ben sasse leaking audio of him criticizing trump so he can protect him, pennsylvania 15, florida, 20 the people who are early voting didnt vote at all in 2016. Now, if youre talking about people who didnt vote at all in 2016, who are so enthusiastic, those people are generally not going to be voting for donald trump. And thats where the real challenge is. Thats where this race is. Its not just going to be a matter of democrats having money in the bank. They have extra money they didnt know they had before. All right, Jason Johnson, thank you very much. The a. P. s Jonathan Lemire joins us now next with new reporting on last nights town halls. And plus, Rupert Murdoch makes a prediction about the november election. Morning joe is coming right back. When disaster strikes to one, we all get together and support each other. Thats the nature of humanity. It has encouraged other people to take the time for each other. If you lose, what will that say to you about where america is today . It could say im a lousy candidate and i didnt do a good job, but i think i hope that it doesnt say that we are as racially, ethnically and religiously at odds with one another as it appears the president wants us to be. Usually, you know, the president s in my view with all due respect, its been divide and conquer. The way he does better if he splits us. Theres division. And i think people need hope. Welcome back to morning joe. Its friday, october 16th. Nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of way too early, kasie hunt is still with us. And joining the conversation, from the associated press, Jonathan Lemire. Msnbc contributor Mike Barnicle is with us. Donny deutsch is with us and Pulitzer Prize winning author and political analyst, Eugene Robinson joins us as well. What did you think of the dueling town halls . I think it showed a stark contrast between the two candidates. Im not sure everyone was as tapped in as i was with ipads and tvs and everything going at the same time. She was so triggered. I have to see it all. I was worried about the nbc event but it was executed with perfection. Savannah held him accountable. This is one of the hardest parts of putting on an event like this and especially its put together in 36 hours to make sure it technically and visually is balanced and allows for for it to play out in a way that gives the audience an honest assessment of what is happening. Right. I thought technically the audio, the way the audience was handled, how it was produced, it really was it gave savannah a platform to really hold the president to account, ask him questions to let him talk and hear from a balanced set of people. I thought it was good, given the controversy. Willie, im so old now, i never know if people remember certain events. Do you remember the 86 world series . The worst ever. Of course. So you remember that lady that every time the red sox were pitching that lady would behind home plate would go like that. I love that. That was so funny. Very distracting. What happened . So last night, every i saw this of course in the replays because i could not be triggered by watching the event live. Oh. But every time donald trump would talk, he would say i woke up in the morning and then yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The lady in the pink. Come on, man. You had the audience split. You could hear everyone. But again, willie, again, everybody is freaking out during the day. Theyd call me up, this is you know . I would have my popeyes, you know, spicy chicken no, you would not. I would put them on mute. You had a salad wrap. Can i please id be eating the spicy chicken sandwich and drinking the sweet tea and theyre still going on. Thats really horrible. Then i put them back on mute, i got my big mac nope, egg whites. Double fisted. Wow. Big mac. Youve got to. You know what they call that. They call that pensacola handcuffs because just stop. You have one in each hand and i cant do it. Im not putting them down. All right. Anyway, so i know im supposed to be shocked and stunned and deeply saddened and people nbc got away with a lot of money, they were criticizing it all day. Im just im just sitting here and going, but wait a second. If the election is about joe biden, then thats not great for joe biden. But this elections all about donald trump. 2016 it was all about Hillary Clinton so dont we want to see more of donald trump because thats no good for donald trump. Now, that was my feeling while i was eating all day and i dont know. In my opinion, it kind of played out that way. Well, it did and as i said last hour and i think John Heilemann reiterated in the last hour as well, the idea of given someone a platform, people objected to giving trump a platform, but youre not giving him a stage to make a onehour speech. Youre putting him in the arena with one of the most skilled interviewers, Savannah Guthrie, and i think she vindicated herself and putting an hourlong presentation and getting real information out of him is a valuable use of time. People object to that and i understand that. Think of what we learned last night. He wouldnt condemn q. I dont have a replacement for the Affordable Care act that im in court trying to get rid of and i think, joe, conservatives perked up when he personally wouldnt say whether he would like to see roe vs. Wade overturned. Lets watch that. Oh, my gosh. I have not talked to her about it. I think it would be inappropriate to talk to her about it and some people would say you can talk to her about. I think it would be inappropriate. What is your preference . Agreed thats not something you should talk to the judge about, but would you like to see roe vs. Wade overturned . I would like to see a brilliant jurist, a brilliant person who has done this in great depth and has actually skirted this issue for a long time, make decision. Thats why i chose her. I think shell make a great decision. I did not tell her what decision to make and i think it would be inappropriate to say now because i dont want to do anything to influence her. I want her to get approved and then i want her to go by the law and i know shell make a great decision for the country. Most prolife republicans would like to see roe vs. Wade overturned and abortion banned. Most of them would, but i dont want to influence anything right now. I dont want to go out tomorrow and say oh, hes trying to give her a signal. Because i didnt speak to her about it. I have done the right thing in so doing. How shes going to rule you can find out perhaps or you might not find out. It may never get there. It may never get there. What convictions . 2 1 2 minutes he would not say this man who has held as the greatest prolife president of all time, refused to say that he supported the overturning of roe vs. Wade, but then again he doesnt like to talk about abortion. He doesnt want to come down on one side or another. Here he is in the interview in 1999 with the legendary tim russert. Partial birth abortion, eliminating of abortion in the third trimester, big issue in washington. Would President Trump ban partial birth abortions . Well, look, im very pro choice. I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it. I hate everything it stands for. I cringe when i learn to people debating the subject but you still i just believe in choice. And again, it may be a little bit of a new york background because there is some different attitude in different parts of the country. You know, i was raised in new york. And i grew up and worked and Everything Else in new york city. But i am strongly for choice an yet, i hate the concept of abortion. But you would not ban it . No. Or ban partial birth abortions . Im pro choice in every respect and as far as it goes, but i just hate it. So, willie, he wont say hes for the overturning of roe vs. Wade, but when asked by tim russert he said not only did he support abortion, he wouldnt overturn if he were president partial birth abortions. So apparently this new yorker, donald trump, hes got no problem saying he supports partial birth abortions but will not say 20 years later he supports the overturning of roe vs. Wade. Which is a fundamental question for a conservative. An easy answer. The truth is as we all know hes not conservative. It reminds me of a moment in 2016 when he was with Chris Matthews and he asked him should women who get abortions be punished. You could see the gears begin to turn in his head. What am i supposed to say here . What is the conservative answer here . What should i say . And he ended up saying, yes, they should be punished. Jonathan lemire, last night we had the dueling town halls, joe biden on abc. And donald trump here on nbc and the nbc networks. We have been laying out seven or eight different moments including his apparent confession that he owes more than 400 million to someone. He wouldnt say to whom. How do they feel about the night . Well, first, willie ill say in defense of the woman in the trump audience i find myself nodding along involuntarily any time Mike Barnicle speaks. Its true. Viewers would have experienced some whiplash watching the two trying to watch both town halls. There was one moment that crystallized it. At the same moment that trump was defending qanon, joe biden was talking about the taxes. He showed the empathy to the listeners, to those asking him questions. He had an in depth knowledge and biden remained on the stage for half an hour or more. His mask back on, still fielding questions from audience members who werent able to ask one during the town hall itself. In terms of the president , people i have talked to around him last night and a few texts early this morning suggested once again a real anger at the media. Blaming the scapegoat, in this case, Savannah Guthrie who i thought did a terrific job yesterday. Just like in the like with chris wallace, unfair. The first debate it was too oneonone. Yesterday, they deemed it unfair with Savannah Guthrie. Thats true. So but i will say they do say there may have been some things that were bad like not denouncing qanon and whether or not he took a covid test before the last debate. He dodged, he evaded and raised real questions as to whether or not he exposed joe biden last time which is going to raise more concerns about next week when theyre supposed to set up for a final debate next thursday. When the president frankly is running of out of time. Hard to imagine even his aides concede that there was any moment last night that the president swung voters his way when he simply is running out of time and opportunities to change the trajectory of this race. Willie, the whiners. Theyre such whiners and in constant search of victimhood. You have antitrump people who attack woke culture for look for victimhood status. They go around every day theyre such snowflakes constantly, constantly looking for victimhood status. Like when if you believe billionaire donald trump was talking to multi, multi, multimillionaire Rush Limbaugh and rush said its always unfair. Its always stacked against us. Youre just sitting there, like, wait, two white guys that are like worth billions of dollars, one president of the United States, one the top right wing talk and theyre very victims . Its really crazy. I wonder what was Savannah Guthrie supposed to do when donald trump said that he wouldnt answer whether he believed he believed in the Conspiracy Theory about cannibals like running a pedophilia ring in the federal government. I dont care who if joe biden said that, they would have hammered him forever. The whining coming please. The questions he didnt answer, the bizarre responses, the fact that he said he didnt remember the last time he tested negative for covid before his positive test. The fact that the biggest hypochondriac to ever sit in the white house said, oh, im not sure what my lung xray showed. I know it was abnormal, i dont know, i dont ask those questions. Its just one lie after another. If it were joe biden lying through his teeth like that, if it were any candidate lying through their teeth like that, there would be those questions and those followups. Of course. For a group that likes to accuse everyone being a snowflake, there was a lot of snow flakes falling on behalf of President Trump. Think of the three recent interviews where he has been pushed by journalists, Savannah Guthrie, jonathan swan, christopher wallace. The complaints afterwards when factbased questions were asked and the interviewer pursued followups to nail him down to get a real answer on it, all three were accused of being out to get donald trump. Its just the way they operate. Its totally predictable and gene robinson, theres a long list where donald trump revealed himself in the hourlong platform. What did you make of the sort of dueling town halls last night . Well, willie, you know, i did the full mika. I had one on the flat screen, one on the laptop. So i was kind of having you know, very odd sort of bewildering evening. You know, i thought predictably donald trump made the evening all about him by his lies and his evasions and just the bizarre things he said including the qanon section, and its just unbelievable that conversation was held with the president of the United States. Its just unbelievable and, you know, savannah is not the person youd want to see sitting at the prosecutors take in a courtroom if you were on trial. But she just asked the logical followup questions and tried to pin him down and his evasion was so transparent and so evident that i thought that that was that made it a very bad night for him. And it was a fascinating moment at the end when savannah sort of lobbed a rare softball and sort of gave him a chance to speak to voters who maybe didnt support him last time, who maybe did, but dont want to support him this time and to say how he would do better with another term. And his answer was, well, i think i have done a great job. You know . Absolutely you contrast that with the way joe biden answered the question of what he would do or feel if he lost and it just two so different candidates to be commander in chief and president of the United States. And one was a very reasonable Public Servant and one was donald trump. When it comes to the presidency, character is destiny. If you look at last nights events, you look at the character of the both men. One humble, one arrogant and just unspooled. Now, donny, i know that you were watching the event last night and werent the biggest fan of the event and were concerned about where it went. But im just curious, again, my attitude going in to this thing was that any time the campaigns about donald trump, donald trump loses. Do you think thats the case . Its interesting, i was upset. Im sorry, i take it out on you when im upset, i know youre eating chicken mcnuggets and popeyes. No, its a choice the incumbent wins, if its referendum on the incumbent, he loses. So yeah, i kind of stand corrected, if you will. But the contrast was interesting but i want to go to the viewers and how do you feel as youre watching both and you watched trump and the volume is up and the intensity is up and the energy and the manicness is up and then you turned it over to abc and to biden and everything got quieter. I think thats a visceral contrast and i think the country is tired of the manicness. I think the country is tired of that you know, when you watch it, you feel your body. You go like this and then you go to biden and everything kind of relaxes. I think the country is ready to relax. You know, its interesting today trumps tweeting is about i promise you they outrated biden two to one and that will work to his deficit and the other thing thats interesting, women and seniors. You know, if youre a woman and you watched the interaction between him and savannah, you feel like he puts upon by having to answer questions from a woman. I think the seniors will feel that too. I think the country is exhausted and i think theyre just tired of the act. I think youre right. I think theyre exhausted. Donny, mika, look at donnys background. Speaking of exhaustion at least hes wearing clothes. Yeah, im glad hes covering his arms but if i were tired, theres no place to like sit down and relax. It is it is the dental office. Well, this is kind of a more formal look. I can give you a tour. This is where for formal entertaining, i have heads of state. I have been in there, donny. Yeah, i see the elevator. I know where that staircase goes. Remember we did the commercial . Yeah. I do its quite a palace you have there, donny. You were here for the state dinner for obama. Moving on to Mike Barnicle. So mike, joe bidens town hall went an hour and a half, Donald Trumps was an hour. Im talking about the comparison between these two men and even their events last night since trump was i think quite pleased to have them be dueling events. But joe bidens was a bit more thoughtful and he hung after afterwards to talk to people. I know youre in contact with the Biden Campaign and the bidens themselves. How did they feel about how last night went . Well, i havent spoken to anybody in the campaign or texted with anybody in the campaign since last night but just as a viewer, as an american citizen, as a voter i have to tell you the clip we played at the top of this hour, that says a lot. I mean, what do you want out there . Do you want the guy yelling and screaming with the orange hair in honor of the upcoming halloween, i guess. Hes beginning to look like a pumpkin on tv, or do you want a person who can calm this country down to donnys point. People are exhausted. Last night was a perfect example of that. If you watched Savannah Guthrie slice and dice the president of the United States, a polite prosecutorial way too, she wasnt hammering him, he was a loser in that. This has been overlooked but she referenced one of the tweets he retweeted that s. E. A. L. Team 6 took bin laden to six flags in texas or Something Like that bin laden is alive. Crazy stuff hes tweeting, crazy stuff like qanon, he denies he has any knowledge of but he favors their position against pedophilia. This is crazy time. Joe biden, on the other hand, last night, relaxed, calm, humble, direct, knowledgeable. Thats your guy. Yeah, kasie . Kasie hunt has a question, mike. Yeah, mike, you know, knowing how you are at connected and tied into the campaign we were talking yesterday about how they want to make sure theyre not complacent that the campaign side his Campaign Manager specifically is looking at the firms saying this race is going to be a lot closer than a lot of the polls are showing. You know, i take your point very well that, i mean, just the way that the two events looked, produced, the decibel level of each underscored the contrast that the Biden Campaign is trying to make with President Trump. But im still wondering what is keeping them up every night, what are they worried about in the final days. What do they think could change in the final days that could potentially make this race harder for them to win . Well, i think, kasie, like a lot of people, perhaps some of us here this morning on tv have a lingering case of 2016itis. A case of ptsd over what happened in 2016, but i think the intent in the campaign is to not worry so much about what could happen but what theyre doing to do each and every day. Thats run like an underdog. In every state, they are fortunate now they have enough money to be up on media, paid media, in most of the states. Is there a lingering worry that something could pop out of the Justice Department led by the corrupt bill barr and you tweeted the former assistant attorney general in san diego about bill barr and we can talk about that in a couple of minutes but theyre worried a little bit about that because you never know in this administration. But other than that, their eye is on the prize and its a day to day operation. All right. All right, now to this. Former new jersey governor and one of President Trumps debate coaches, Chris Christie, says he was wrong for not wearing a mask at the white house after spending seven days in the intensive care battling coronavirus at a new Jersey Medical center. In a statement to nbc news, christie wrote in part, i believed that when i entered the white house grounds that i had entered a safe zone due to the testing that i and many others underwent every day. I was wrong. I was wrong to not wear a mask at the Amy Coney Barrett announcement. And i was wrong not to wear a mask at my multiple debate prep sessions with the president and the rest of the team. He continues, i hope that my experience shows my fellow citizens that you should follow cdc guidelines in public, no matter where you are and wear a mask to protect yourself and others. It is something to take very seriously. The ramifications are wildly random and potentially deadly. No one should be happy to get the virus and no one should be cavalier about being infected or infecting others. Well, a really good statement from Chris Christie. Chris is our friend and has been our friend, but regardless of whos making that statement, youre just grateful that somebody that is in Donald Trumps orbit other than Anthony Fauci is delivering that message. And has been through it. And has been through it. And survived. He understands this is not the flu. Its not a joke. Hes saying its a flu, its a joke, donald trump keeps saying it. Thats a very strong message and hopefully one that some people will Pay Attention to. Joining us now, former fda commissioner dr. Scott gottlieb. Well start at 20,000 feet and look at where coronavirus stands in this country. I believe there are certain hot spots, are things Getting Better or worse . Well, things are clearly getting a lot worse and i think theyre going to continue to get worse unfortunately. Theres epidemics right now in the midwest and the great lakes states. Youre seeing cases really build around the country even when you look at places like texas. Which went through a very a very robust wave of infection, a surge of infection over the summer and theyre seeing the infection cases surge. I talked to two Hospital Executives here in the northeast and theyre seeing cases in their hospitals going up substantially over the past couple of weeks. The rate of transfer, the rt, is above 1 in about 40 states so they have an expanding epidemic and i would expect that unfortunately to continue to build. I think by election day well be around 60,000 infections a day here in the United States. 70,000 infections a day back to the old peaks and more than 40,000 people hospitalized. Tragically i think deaths are going to start to go up. Theyre a lagging indicator of the infection. Doctor, you predicted this is coming for some time. That the fall was going to be more difficult. Im curious though, you look at almost a migration pattern of this illness in the early spring when it was still cold in the northeast and across the north, a lot of infections there. Of course much of that had to do with travel coming from europe to new york city. Then as it got warmer and people in the north got to go outside more, the infections went down for Different Reasons and went down there. But we saw problems in the sunbelt from arizona through texas over to florida. Now its getting cool again, people are going back inside. And were starting to see it. You can almost draw a Straight Line in most states above the masondixon line west and thats where a lot of the hot spots are. Are we finding six, nine months into this that so much of this really does have to do with the spreading of this disease when people are pushed inside because of climate . Thats certainly part of it and theres part of what we think was going on in the south. People went indoors to get access to air conditioning when it got very hot in the south and thats what propelled some of the spread down there. I think what were likely to see this fall and winter is more of a confluent epidemic across the entire country. Really what we have had to date is stateled actions on this virus trying to combat it with regional effects. We have seen regionalized epidemics. We havent had a National Epidemic that you see simultaneous spread in all 50 states like you do with the flu season. Flu starts as a regionalized epidemic, then it becomes more confluent across the entire country. I think that as we enter the fall and the winter were likely to grapple with the situation that every part of the nation is going to be lit up by infection. The exception is cities where you wont see the same rate of transfer but still going to see spread there. Cities like new york, miami, houston, theyre not impervious to second wave but the second wave wont be as vigorous as the first because they had 20 , 25 of the population infected. Dr. Gottlieb, good morning, good to see you. Dr. Fauci was asked a couple of days ago of how hes thinking of thanksgiving and its a conversation thats happening right now. Should people come in from out of town, flying in, gathering in large groups. How generally do you think americans should be thinking about gathering about a month from now . Yeah. I mean, unfortunately well spend it apart this year. We have started to think about it. I have older parents that you know im not sure that i would feel comfortable bringing them around a lot of young kids right now. They have made it through the epidemic so far, and i want to be careful. I think were in the final stages, that is really, really the pandemic phase of this. I think we have to get through the fall and the winter and as we enter into 2021 things will look better, hopefully access to the vaccine and hopefully it will be more of a seasonable type of spread and it will dissipate in the spring and summer. I think americans need to recognize we had some hard days ahead of us but well get through this. This is going to be largely a 2020 event and as we get into 2021 things will start to look better so we need to be careful. The final point, i talked to the number of state officials over the last couple of days to ask them where theyre seeing the spread emanate from, bars, restaurants, and what they have said to me when they do their tracking and tracing theyre finding its family gatherings. People getting together in groups of 10 or 20, and letting the guard down. Guess that answers my question about thanksgiving. Mike barnicle has a question for you. Doctor there seems to be some confusion about the word immunity when applied to the virus. Part of it is rooted in people who claim to have had beaten the covid virus, got the virus, beat it, theyre better. They claim theyre immune from it forever, is that accurate . No, its not accurate. Theres a period where you probably have some immunity to the virus. It will be highly variable but i think we can figure that for 6 to 12 months after you get the virus and you beat it you probably have a period of immunity but not what we call sterile immunity. You can get reinfected but youll have a residual immunity and youll have protection against a bad outcome and the antibodies dissipate over time. The other thing to think about when people get the antibody drugs, there is a risk that theres a potential or a theoretical risk that when you get one of the drugs you basically shortchange your own immune system. Youre getting an intact immune system in the bottle when you take one of the drugs. It could be the case that your body never mounts a full immune response and you sort of supplanted your own immune system. People who get the antibody drugs should be extra careful and thinking about the fact that they may not have gone through the disease in a normal way and developed the same kind of immunity as someone who beat the disease if you will. Because the reason why they will beat the disease or what helped them was one of the drugs. All right, dr. Gottlieb, thank you very, very much. Things are getting a lot worse. You know, some hope too. I think thats very important. Willie, just to summarize what the doctor said and hes obviously one of our favorite guests on this issue because he always talks straight. What he has said has proven be correct time and again. He said this would get worse in the summer, worse in the fall. This is a summary. He did say things are a lot worse right now and he also said theyd get worse as we move into the fall. But he said this is hopeful. He said this is a 2020 event, for the most part well look back on this as a 2020 event. We are improving therapeutics. In 2021, hopefully were moving through the pandemic part of the event and in the fall when we have vaccines well be able to stay out there. I think you were surprised by this. This is such a contagious disease, such a deadly disease that what dr. Gottlieb says epidemiologists are finding what scientists are finding as they research this disease, is that it is spread mainly in family groups, 15 to 20 people who let their guard down and it spreads through family groups as well as whether youre in a restaurant or not. So you just cant keep you cant let your guard down, even inside your own home. Yeah, its a hard thing to hear, isnt it, about thanksgiving in particular. Because you want so badly to see everyone, but its the right thing to hear and its true and its an important thing to hear from dr. Gottlieb, gathering in the family groups can be dangerous and that we have to remain vigilant. But im with you, hearing that there are some therapeutics being developed, a vaccine coming at some point next year. So the truth is, were going to be hunkered down through the fall and be hunkered down through the winter and we have to remain vigilant on all of this. Jonathan lemire, i guess for donald trump does he recognize that and the answer so far has been no. He said again yesterday that we are rounding the corner. How many times has he said that . We are rounding the corner on this disease. Dr. Gottlieb just laid out very clearly that we are not yet rounding the corner. The president s rhetoric on the pandemic has not changed at all, even after his own illness. He has still hes painted this very optimistic way trying to suggest, yes, the nation is rounding the corner and a cure is ready and of course thats not true. He received certainly in the hospital at walter reed the state of the art, the best treatment, therapeutics that anyone can. Most therapeutics that americans dont have access to and it seems like hes recovering, on his way, but thats not available to everyone and thats not the story that most americans have. Its more than 215,000 dead and millions have lost their job and the president from day one has refused to acknowledge publicly how severe this crisis was and how damaging it is. We know of course in the bob woodward tapes that he was aware of it, acknowledging privately, that this was going to be a global threat. But publicly his Campaign Just simply hasnt adapted to that and he shows it every day with these campaign rallies. He has two more scheduled today. One in florida. One in georgia. There are expected to be thousands of people there, probably not many in masks. Certainly not much in the way of social distancing and i should note, hes got a western swing that begins on saturday night. He also leds to the midwest during the day on saturday including to wisconsin. The state perhaps most of all in the nation right now is being hammered with the surge of virus cases. And he will head right into that potentially starting as another super spreader event. And the warning dr. Gottlieb to Covid Patients like donald trump, to be beware, you may not have built up the immunity to covid that you that patients who actually fight it without the antibodies, where they make up their own antibodies, that actually those sort of patients and that certainly includes the president of the United States may be susceptible to getting this sooner rather than later. And people in the white house, which brings me to this question, donny deutsch. You know Michael Cohen and to hear Chris Christie have a dramatically change of heart after going to the hospital and going through what must have been pretty much a nightmare for him, what is it about people in Donald Trumps inner circle that that has to happen in order for them to be able to understand that science is worth respecting . You know, listening to the christie statement, look, i couldnt help but think had trump when he got it, i was concerned obviously. I dont want anybody to get it, but it was a reset for his campaign. Hed come out with something similar to that you go you would have went, hmm, kind of a smart thing to do. There was a human in there and this is a reset where he goes you know what, i was so wanted the country to move forward but i had blinders on. You should wear a mask. It was an opportunity but he cant take it. For donald trump at the end of the day hes so insecure and hes insecure about his masculinity and theres a machismo as opposed to stupidity and weakness and everything about donald trump is puffing his chest out and being a man and to him wearing a mask is impotent. Thats the biggest fear, seeming impotent and thats a cheap observation of why a man would make this decision. Donny deutsch, thank you very much. Thank you for coming to us from your medical room. Doctors office. Jonathan lemire, i know you have to go, but lets talk about last night really quickly. The dodgers backs against the wall and looks like weve got a real battle between the astros and a great rays team. Joe, for those of us right thinking americans rooting against the astros, their comeback is a concern. Theyre the first team to fall behind 30 in a series to even force a game 6, a team that you and i certainly willie remember well, the 2004 red sox. I forgot about that. Yeah, it was a noteworthy one. Yeah, as far as the National League goes this feels like a snake bit dodgers team. Kershaw, future hall of famer, he pitched really well until the wheels came off in the sixth inning. The dodgers are down now. They have the talent and the lineup to overcome the deficit but the braves are scorching hot. The blowout loss aside. But certainly i will be watching the games later on. And more than anything, as a proud member of the Tampa Bay Rays nation, at least for a few more days. Oh, yeah. All right. We are rays nation. We are rays nation. So Mike Barnicle, what did you see last night in the dodgers and the astros games . What do you think is going to happen . Well, i saw a really, really good underrated braves team. I mean, they dont receive a lot of national attention, theyre loaded with young talent. Poor dave roberts, the dodgers manager, one of the nicest men on the face of the earth totally mismanage a game when it counts in october. On the other hand, but im a daily church goer now, the Tampa Bay Rays are going to pull it out tonight. Theyre going get the job done for america tonight. Is that right . Thats what baby jesus wants. Yeah. Goodness. Exactly right, joe. Exactly. So joe, were not the bandwagon rays fans. You and i, our dads took us and we used to go to the trop back in the 50s and 60s to watch the rays teams. Nothing to do with the cheating astros. Were just proud members of rays nation from way back to monday, i think. I remember, willie, we would be sitting there in the trop in 57. Jackie gleason, would take a train up from miami beach. So old. Smoking the cigars. The rays, you know what . When James Earl Jones gets to the beach okay. Coming up you know what . Yeah. Steam rolled over america but the rays, the rays are the one constant throughout time. Thats it. Were for them tonight, willie geist. For our pops. Those bleachers at the trop, we learned as much about life as we did about baseball. Ill never forget those days. Yeah. Yeah. Coming up, the democratic candidate who is leading the polls in a special Senate Election race in georgia. Reverend Raphael Warnock is standing by and joins us next. Theres a lot going on at knowyourvalue. Com. Its our reset series and this week i talk with telemundos executive Vice President monica gil on how shes led the company and the unstoppable women campaign. Plus, author mena harris shares three life lessons from her aunt, democratic Vice President ial candidate senator kamala harris. Check it all out at knowyourvalue. Com. Well be right back. How about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no nnnnono only discover has no annual fee on any card. Knowinits hard. Re is hard. Eliminate who you are not first, and youre going to find yourself where you need to be. The race is never over. The journey has no port. The adventure never ends, because we are always on the way. boy reading find the nonpartisan facts behind the real stories at usafacts. Org with the ninja foodito intelligesmart xl grill. Ing just pick your protein, select your doneness, and let the grill monitor your food. It also turns into an air fryer. Bring outdoor grilling flavors indoors with the grill that grills for you. I wanted more from my copd medicine, thats why ive got the power of 1,2,3 medicines with trelegy. The only fdaapproved, oncedaily 3 in 1 copd treatment. Trelegy the power of 1 2 3 trelegy 1 2 3 trelegy with trelegy and the power of 1, 2, 3, im breathing better. Trelegy works 3 ways to open airways, keep them open, and reduce inflammation for 24 hours of better breathing. Trelegy wont replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. Think your copd medicine is doing enough . Maybe you should think again. Ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy. We know times are hard and were here for you. Find support at trelegy. Com. The names on the ballot are listed in alphabetical order. So you have to look all the way down there to find warnock. I may be near the end of the alphabet and the ballot, but ill always put georgia first. Ahead of the november election were checking in with candidates across the country and joinings from the state of georgia, reverend Raphael Warnock. Youre up against two republicans and Kelly Loeffler is one of them. What makes you stand out in this election, do you think, against your opponent . Both of your opponents. Good morning, mika. Great to be here with you. Listen, i have just been moving all across the state of georgia telling my story. Im a kid who grew up in public housing, down in the housing projects of savannah, georgia. Im savannah, georgia. Im number 11 in my family and the First College graduate. Im running because its harder now for children than me. I often say i went to Morehouse College on a full faith scholarship. Thats true, a lot of hard work and a sense of personal responsibility. Somebody gave me a pell grant, a low interest student loan. As i tell my story and people in georgia get to know the work ive been doing, focused on making sure everybody has Affordable Health care and that we lift up the dignity of workers, people are responding to our message. Gene robinson has the next question. Gene. Reverend, warnock, good to talk to you. That recent quinnipiac poll showed you over 40 leading all contenders in this sort of first round of potentially of the election, but do you potentially have a chance to win this outright in november, or do you think realistically theres going to be a runoff in january, and if so, which republican would you rather face . Oh, im just going to keep on telling my story and leaning in to the work ive always done. Im a firsttime candidate, but i dont feel like i launch add campaign a few months ago. Im continuing a campaign. Ive been standing up for years. When we were trying to pass the Affordable Care act, i was preaching about it from my pulpit. Ive honored to serve as pastor of Ebenezer Baptist church as the spiritual home of Martin Luther king jr. We preach a gospel that we believe extends into the public square. I intend to lean into my message, continue to talk about health care, talk about the dignity of work, and yes, i think i can win this thing outright in november. Well just lean in. Well see what happens, but we are certainly delighted by the support that were feeling all across the state. I was down in southwest georgia this past weekend, and the folks down there are feeling devastated because their local hospital is about to close, the southwest georgia Regional Medical center. Seven hospitals have closed in our state in the last ten years, and two have announced that theyre going to close in large measure because georgia is one of only 11 states now thats refused to expand medicaid, and this is devastating rural health care, not only the health care system, but its a huge drag on the economy. And we can do better than this. Georgia deserves a senator who will stand up for ordinary people in the halls of washington, d. C. Reverend warnock, willie giese, great to have you on. Weve been talking about Donald Trumps town hall meeting with nbc last night. Part of what he can is say he didnt know anything about qanon. The woman youre trying to unseat, senator Kelly Loeffler accepted at an open News Conference the endorsement from another congressional candidate who is likely to become a member of congress who has endorsed qanon conspiracy theories. Senator loeffler accepted that endorsement. Whats your reaction to that . My reaction is the people of georgia and all across this country watch whats going on in terms of washington politics, and they wonder where are they in the conversation as we are engaged in all of these arguments, conspiracy theories. Meanwhile, ordinary people are sitting at their kitchen tables this morning, and theyre trying to figure out how they make their way through this dense fog of a once in a century pandemic, an economic turndown, the likes of which we have not seen since the great depression, and politicians seem to be making the politics all about them. Meanwhile, people are suffering. Weve got over 500,000 people in the medicaid gap in this state. Were calling people essential workers, but were not paying them an essential wage. Were not providing for them essential benefits and young people, if they make their way to college or a university are finding themselves loaded down with so much debt that they have a mortgage before they have a mortgage. We need people in washington in leadership who are thinking about the people. Empathy is a muscle ive exercised for years. Im a pastor. This is not theoretical stuff for me. I stand at bedsides in hospitals all time. Ive been in the Critical Care units of hospitals while loved ones are wrestling not only with a sickness but how theyre going to pay for it. And this is the kind of sensitivity and etmpathy that i think we need in the United States senate. Reverend Raphael Warnock thank you so much for being on the show this morning. Weve reached out to senator loeffler and senator collins to invite them on as well. Up next, covid cases on the rise as several regions try to fight back a third wave. Plus, the stark contrast between donald trump and joe biden in last nights dueling town hall meetings. Morning joe is coming right back. Tech every customer has their own safelite story. This couple was on a camping trip. When their windshield got a chip. They drove to safelite for a sameday repair. And with their insurance, it was no cost to them. Woman really . Tech thats service you can trust. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. Still a father. But now a friend. Still an electric car. 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It streams exclusive originals, the full peacock movie library, complete collections of iconic tv shows, and more. Yup, the best really did get better. Magnificent. Xfinity x1 just got even better, with peacock premium included at no additional cost. No strings attached. Just this week you retweeted to your 87 million followers a Conspiracy Theory that joe biden orchestrated to have s. E. A. L. Team 6 killed to cover up the fake death of bin laden. Now, why would you send a lie like that to your followers . You retweeted it. That was a retweet. That was an opinion of somebody. That was a retweet. Ill put it out there. I dont get that, youre the president , youre not like someones crazy uncle who can retweet whatever. That was a retweet. I do a lot of retweets. So if its a retweet, its somehow okay for the president to push bigoted and con speartorispea spirtorial messages to the world was it was quite a difference last night between President Trump and joe biden in their town halls that aired at the same time. Good morning and welcome to morning joe, along with joe, willie and me, we have msnbc National Affairs analyst cohost of show times the circus, and executive editor of the recount John Heilemann, politics and journalism professor and msnbc contributor Jason Johnson and capitol hill correspondent and host of way too early kasie hunt is with us as well. Great to have you all on board. What a night it was last night. I had the ipad. I had the tv. I was listening to both. It was a lot. There was a lot happening. Willie, mika was so joe was watching baseball. He was watching the braves. Mika was so triggered, i said im going upstairs. Got to see it all. Willie, you know me im such a company man, the first thing im going to do is defend nbc. Of course for people who know me, they know thats a joke. Come on, yeah, everybody was freaked out yesterday about nbc, and okay, thats fine. I was a little freaked out. Like i said, im not a company man so if you want to be freaked out at nbc and say ugly things about, even if you made gazillions of dollars off of nbc, i dont care. I just want the astros to lose. But what i kept saying to mika but i would never tweet because people would be like youre the antichrist, how dare you defend nbc. I was saying to mika, just give him the rope. I dont understand why everybodys freaking out about this because the biggest deficit in Donald Trumps polling over two or three days came after his first debate. Yep. Its not like hes got anywhere to go. The more large audiences see drof donald trump the more he loses because the more hes going to squirm away from his bizarre conspiracy theories. Savannah did a great job. After four years he cannot defend what hes done on covid. He cannot defend what hes done on conspiracy theories. He cannot defend what hes done on qanon. Like all day yesterday when people were freaking out, i took jack to play basketball. I just i stayed off of twitter, and i really didnt want to even see this event because i knew how it was going to end. Donald trump is going to say really stupid stuff, and it was going to hurt him in a poll, and then there were going to be like three or four clips which people would play all day, and guess what, thats what theyre going to do. When you wont say that the federal government is not run by cannibals and pedophiles, thats probably going to make the evening news. Well, my position yesterday and i understand people were upset about the timing of all of this, and i respect their opinions on that was just wait. Just wait and watch and i think when people did wait and watch, they learned that President Trump as you say, every time he has the stage to himself especially, when its just him, hes going to say an hours worth of things that are indictments on him and his administration and just wait and watch how Savannah Guthrie questions him. I think i was vindicated on both of these things. Were going to go through some of these clips. You laid out some of it, joe. He wouldnt say when he had a test, if he had a test on the night of the debate. He would not condemn qanon saying i dont know anything about qanon, thats a lie, of course, but if thats true, his own fbi field offices have said they are an inspiration for domestic terrorism. He probably ought to read up on it. He said that he does owe the 400 some million dollars, Savannah Guthrie tried to get him to say to whom, he wouldnt say to whom. He would not say if he thought roe versus wade should be overturned. That will come as a surprise to many conservatives. Oh, hes the biggest champion, prolife champion ever. Asked repeatedly, he wouldnt answer. Its funny, when he was asked in the past are you prolife or prochoi prochoice, oh, yeah, im prochoice. Wouldnt say it last night. Also, no plan to replace the Affordable Care act. Hes in court at this very moment getting rid of it including coverage for people with preexisting conditions, no plan to replace it. He said were rounding the corner on this disease on the very day that we got the news that almost every state now is experiencing a spike, and we know from dr. Fauci and his own task force that this thing is roaring back with a vengeance in the fall and the winter. So yes, give donald trump the hour and hell give you what he gave us last night. So mika, give us your thoughts. Well, i think there was a lot of concern for a lot of reasons about the timing and whatever, but i will say this, what concerned me was having watched the first debate and seeing how terribly executed it was technically on every level, i think what happened here was a success because the president was held to account. He was given time to answer questions. Youre right, joe, you can call that rope. Other people can call it time for trump to be trump, but savannah held him to account. She jumped on almost everything he said and tried to balance it out with the facts or to press him on it. Also, technically the audio was strong, savannahs voice was as loud as trumps. The audience questions were focused, balanced and relevant. I was actually very pleasantly surprised at how well this went after seeing the debate, the first debate debacle, which was really in many ways a disservice to the country because it was so poorly executed and the president ran over everybody and everything, and he wasnt held to account, and you know, it may have been bad for him in the long run, but just in terms of execution, i think the media and the people in the audience did a great job last fight. Savannah asked President Trump about his own bout with covid with trump revealing that he may have had some sort of lung infection while sick with the virus, and the president also refused to answer a key question regarding his own testing. Did you test the day of the debate . I dont know. I dont even remember. I test all the time, but i can tell you this, after the debate like i guess a day or so, i think it was thursday evening, maybe even late thursday evening, i tested positive. Thats when i first found out about it. Back to the debate, because the Debate Commissions rules, it was the honor system that you would come with a negative test. You say you dont know if you got a test on the day of the debate . I had no problem. The doctors do itme. I dont ask them. Did you take a test though on the day of the debate. They take a test and i leave and go about my business. So did you take a test on the day of the debate i guess is the bottom line . I probably did and took a test day before, and i was in great shape for the debate. It was only after the debate, a period of time after the debate and i said thats interesting and i took a test and it tested positive. Do you take a test every single day . No, no, but i take a lot of tests. And you dont know if you took a test the day of the debate . Possibly i did. By the way, before i came up here, i took another test. Ive been taking them every day, the deep test. I wanted to be able if i had not passed that test, i did not want to come here and expose anybody, and i just think its its just decency to be able to determine whether or not you are clear. Im less concerned about me, but then the people, the guys at the cameras, the people working, you know, the secret service guys you drive up with, all those people. So yes, i believe hell do that. Yeah, its just about decency. That really does really lay it out about as well as it could be laid out. But poor donald, he doesnt know when he took a test. Poor donald doesnt even know how his lungs are. Hes confused. Hes something of a hypochondri hypochondriac. Ive only eaten with him one time, and before his food came out, he had a stack of wipes that melania went through and they wiped themselves down. It was quite an obsessive thing. So im supposed to believe that that guy that was that freaked out about his hands, had abnormalities in his lungs. I dont know. So he doesnt know about when he got his tests last negative test, he doesnt know about the state of his lungs, the health of his lungs. Cent if he was tested on the debate day. He doesnt know if he was tested on the debate day. He doesnt know about qanon. During the debate, we heard he didnt know about the proud boys. In his last campaign he said he didnt know who david duke was. He didnt know about the klan, he didnt know if there was a pedophilia ring run by cannibals in the government. A lot of things, mika, that donald trump doesnt know. Still ahead, President Trump likes to call the New York Times fake news, but last night he didnt deny the papers huge scoop that he personally owes hundreds of millions of dollars. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. K. When disaster strikes to one, we all get together and support each other. Thats the nature of humanity. It has encouraged other people to take the time for each other. Oh, you think thats a bad move . So youre saying i should go to subway for a delicious footlong. Amazing speech coach. I know. Now in the app get a free footlong, when you buy two. Because its footlong season. When you buy two. Knowinits hard. Re is hard. Eliminate who you are not first, and youre going to find yourself where you need to be. The race is never over. The journey has no port. The adventure never ends, because we are always on the way. To customizes yourcan gocar insurancetual. Com so you only pay for what you need . Really . I didnt aah ok. Im on vibrate. Aaah only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Record heat waves, does that worry you . Well it should. Because this climate thing is your problem. Forty years ago, when our own scientists at big oil predicted that burning fossil fuels could lead to catastrophic effects, we spent billions to sweep it under the rug. So were going to be fine. But you might want to start a compost pile and turn down the ac, you got a lot of work to do. Because your kids are going to need it. Lcv victory fund is responsible for the content of this advertising. With priceline, you can get up to 60 off amazing hotels. And when you get a big deal. You feel like a big deal. Priceline. Every trip is a big deal. Here is President Trump giving his most detailed response to date about the New York Times report on his taxes and his financial status in which he seemed to concede last night that he is, in fact, some 400 million in debt. Im very under levered fortunately, but im very under levered. I have a very, very small percentage of debt compared, in fact, some of it i did as favors to institutions that wanted to loan me money. 400 million compared to the assets that i have, all of these Great Properties all over the world and frankly, the bank of america building in san francisco, i dont love whats happening to san francisco. Do i hear you right, it sounds like youre saying 400 million isnt that much . Are you confirming that yes, you do owe some 400 million . What im saying is that its a tiny percentage of my net worth. That sound like yes. And youll see that soon because were doing things, you know, weve given i think its 108 or 112 pages of financial detail to elections and you know, we have to file as the president as any politician, you have to file. Nobody ever looks at that. When they do, they see how incredible the company is, but more importantly, they see where this debt is. No, i dont owe russia money. I dont owe i owe a very, very small its called mortgages. People have a house. Any foreign bank, any foreign entity . Not that i know of. I will probably because its so easy to solve, and if youd like to do, i will let you know who i owe whatever small amount of money. I want to say two things. Number one, its a very small amount of money. Number two, its very straight. Its very very straight, but its a tiny percentage of the worth. Did you ever hear the expression under levered . I am extremely under levered. Jason johnson as savannah pointed out right after that, she said you could resolve all this by releasing your taxes. Again, he says these numbers are phony and made up. The New York Times is reporting on tax returns that it has viewed. The president went on to say some of his loans were favors to institutions that wanted to loan me the money. He was doing favors by taking their loans. He could have, again, another case where he could have said, no im not 400 million in debt. Thats ridiculous. Instead he went down this long ask winding road thereby implying that, yes, in fact, the president of the United States does owe somebody more than 400 million right now. Yeah, willie, im old enough to remember the 2012 election and debates where we spent weeks talking about the fact that mitt romney, i think he was challenged one of the other candidates and said 10,000 bet, and we were aghast, we were aghast that he treated 10,000 like it was nothing. Were now at a point where a president who is in debt 400 million says thats peanuts while youve got 40 million americans who are out of work while his party refuses to come up with another stimulus package for more people who will be put out of work and out of their homes. Its indicative of sort of the cult like nature of people who continue to support donald trump. What i thought was particularly compelling also about that number and about that debt and about his inability to give a straight answer is, look, you couldnt get a security clearance at the fda if you had 400 million in debt. I have family members who are in National Security positions and Everything Else like that. That kind of debt to anybody under any circumstances would not allow you access to any Sensitive Information in the government. And so the fact that we have a president who is in that kind of debt and cant trace it and wont reveal the information is yet another sign of what a National Security risk he is and the fact that people are willing to support him regardless of how his life financially and politically is completely at odds with the regular American People. But again, i ultimately think in the larger scheme of things, i dont think this town hall is really going to change that much. The people who like donald trump are going to continue to like him. 18 million americans have already voted one way or another, and every single time he opens his mouth, it is just a reminder not just of what a terrible person he may be, what a bad politician he may be, but it also depresses the vote for down ballot republicans who have to go to zoom town halls and explain the behavior of a president who is completely at odds with regular people. Coming up, a behind the scenes look at two of the most iconic president s in history, barack obama and Ronald Reagan seen through the eyes of renowned white house photographer pete souza. Morning joe is back in a moment. The screams are just getting started. Wear your favorite costumes and the fun never ends. Come get your halloween on, happening now at universal orlando resort. Still a father. But now a friend. Still an electric car. Just more electrifying. Still a night out. But everything fits in. Still hard work. Just a little easier. 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This couple was on a camping trip. When their windshield got a chip. They drove to safelite for a sameday repair. And with their insurance, it was no cost to them. Woman really . Tech thats service you can trust. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. Now, can you just once and for all state that that is completely not true and that disavow qanon in its entirety . I know nothing about qanon. I just told you. I know very little. You told me but what you tell me doesnt necessarily make it fact, i hate to say that. I know nothing about it. I do know they are very much against pedophilia, they fight it very hard, but i know nothing about it. They believe it is a satanic cult run by the deep state. Ill tell you what i do know about that. I know about antifa, and i know about the radical left. Donald trump continues to be quick to call out the radical left while declining to know anything about the far right conspiracy theories that pose domestic threats. Lets take a look in the book thats looking at changes in the u. S. Politics and culture. With us now Senior Editor at the american conservative rod drayer, the author of the new book live not by lies a manual for christian dissidence also with us Senior Editor of the dispatch and columnist for time, david french, and professor at Princeton University eddie glaude jr. Let me just begin by saying we are doing this despite the fact that just like Houston Astros fans, your devotion to the lsu tigers makes baby jesus cry, but we decided to do this anyway. [ laughter ] if i can get an amen from david french. Amen. Rocky top. Amen to that. Yes, sir. I cant believe it. No, exactly. Rod, listen, heres the deal. I just want everybody to know that and i dont think im alone in this assessment. So i read you and about 80 of the time im like, yeah, man, i wish i had written that. And then the other 20 of the time it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes about churchill, when hes right, winston is right, but when hes wrong, my god. And so lets start there. Lets start with with the my god. You have a lot you have a lot of people that agree with you on the premise of this book but disagree with your conclusions. Weve talked about that over the phone. So talk about the thesis of the book and where you may separate from traditional christian conservatives. Right, well, the thesis of my book is based on conversations i had, a number of them, with immigrants to the u. S. Who came here from the former soviet block, and what they say is they see coming to america, a version of what they left behind. They see a soft totalitarianism emerging here. How do you determine what is soft totalitarianism . It is emerging in america now a system in which theres only one approved way to think. It its enforcers will destroy you professionally or personally if you dissent. You never know whats coming next or what will be taboo tomorrow. Its imposed by elites so their institutions, and heres the key thing, joe, it politicizes everything. This is the key part totalitarianism. There is no aspect of life that is not politicized. This is the sort of thing they see come, it reminds them of communism and they warn us we better get ready for it. Rod, you are youve sold like more books now than like this book is selling more books than any books since the guttenberg bible. Fox news has been number one in cable news ratings since 1999, and the republicans have a complete monopoly on american government. I think there are a lot of lefties that would say if thats world like if thats being oppressed, give us some of that. Well, look, its not a matter of politics being the most important thing. Institutional control is the most important thing for the longterm. This is what i learned by studying the Russian Revolution and what really matters is when an elite controls a number of institutions it sets the culture. I would trade donald trump and his power in the white house any day for the power the left has over universities, media, corporate america, and any number of institutions of American Life. So shakespeare wrote that rightness is everything. I wonder if for people like me who are conservatives, who have grown up in the church, i wonder if this would have been it would have been better to release this book after donald trump because its called live not by lies and you talk about how theres so many lies on the left, but we heard donald trump coming in talking about qanon and theres a part of your book where you quote a man who refuses to live by lies saying that people will not say right affirm or distribute anything that distorts the truth, will not take part in a meeting in which the discussion is forced so that no one can speak the truth. Will walk out of an event as soon as he hears the speaker utter a lie and ideological drivel or shameless propaganda. I guess when reading this, so many times i would read something that you said applied to the woke left and i said, well, that actually defines donald trump as well. Yeah, you know, joe, im not a fan of donald trump. Im more of an American Solidarity Party guy, and i do think that a lot of us on the right have compromised our integrity by making excuses for trumps lies. Nevertheless, donald trump has been a very poor authoritarian. You know, he hasnt been the demon, the dictator that so many on the left feared. Im more afraid of the left in power, and again, in institutions like corporate america, universities, because they are completely intolerant. The sins of donald trump do not justify what the ill liberal left is doing now within institutions, and thats going to have much greater effect over the longterm than anything donald trump says or does. David french. Yeah, you know, i think we have a problem with an ill liberal left in this country that rod highlights very effectively, and he highlights it effectively in his book, in his writing on the american conservative, we values a problem with an illiberal right. The most effective people in fighting the illiberal left are the liberal left and the most effective people fighting the illiberal right are t they th off each other. Donald trump thrives off the illiberal left i think its incumbent on both sides to have a little courage. One of the things that ive noticed on rods blog is a lot of people are very concerned about the illiberal left, but a lot of the times theyre saying im writing and dont ever use my name. Or i cant disclose who i am or what institution i work for. And we need more people speaking up with their names and fewer people, you know, this is not east germany. We need more people speaking up with their names and having the courage of their convictions in showing less timidity. Thats one of my concerns, not that rod hasnt highlighted a real problem, but that an awful lot of people dont show the courage of their convictions to combat it. Rod. Well, look, i think that i agree with you, david, that people need to have more courage, but when youre talking about the kind of totaltarian environments that they face within their own institutionsment people are scared to death, professors, people in the media because they know their jobs and livelihoods are on the line. I agree with you, they need to be more courageous, but we need to make it more possible for them to be more courageous. We need to make allies with people on the liberal left, people like and james lindsey. These are secular liberal people who have the courage of their convictions and are standing up to their own side. Those people are my allies. Eddie glaude. Well, joe, im trying desperately to figure out how to intervene in this conversation. I dont know who these illiberal lefties actually are, what positions they hold. It seems to me rather incumbent upon folks like dreher and others to explain the kind of equivalency theyre making between the socalled illiberal right those people who hold views visavis people like myself and others and those who want medicare for all, those who want education available and opportunity for everyone, those who want people to have a living wage, how those folks are being described are very different. Look, this is an old argument about the modern world, the new cleri clerics, the lost of the ball last of religion. Its just a new enemy, its called the woke left. I dont know what those folks are. The idea that theres this social justice cult and we find ourselves in this moment that people are policing folks view it means folks cant say whatevers on their mind and not be held to account. Let me just say this, im thinking of people i just had a conversation with Bishop Michael curry of the Episcopal Church in the United States, he wrote a book entitled love is the way. I have a wonderful relationship with reverend william barber, i was raised catholic, i look to pope francis. They are christians who have a decidedly different version of christianity than what i read in this book. We need to understand this for what it is, its just the latest whining of those who have lost their whole way with american society. So rod so rod, that would be an 80 miles an hour fastball right down the middle for you to hit. Go ahead. Professor glaudes own University Set upon joshua cats a professor in the Classics Department because he dard even as a liberal he dared to stand up to this racial totalitarianism that you are all trying to enforce that would have offended he called students terrorists. No, he would because they were coming after Academic Freedom and free speech on campus. You all want to shut down free speech on campus. You want to shut down professors like him and make him a pariah. Hes a liberal, and thank god he stood up and others like robby george at your own university stood up and wouldnt take what you all you lefties, you illiberal total tear yan lefties are trying to dump on him. Wow, that escalated. That did escalate quickly. Eddie, your response, eddie your response. First of all, thats first of all thats silly. Most of us you know, my colleague responded to a letter that we wrote as the university r was trying to grapple with system systemic racism something that dreher would dismiss perhaps. What he did in writing the letters, he described students as terrorists and there was a challenge there. Look, the way universities operate, there are a wide range of folk who function in the spaces that i work. There are folks who are liberal. There are folks who are progressive or lefty as you might describe. There are folk who are conservative, and there are a wide range of conversations that happen across an Academic Year that never make its way into the media, that involve in very interesting sorts of ways debates among people from across the ideological spectrum, so stop kind of describing universities in a way that looks like the 1960s, right . Lets stop having that battle. Lets you and i try to imagine a different way of being american as opposed to you wanting to give people like me charity or forcing me, people who look like me to just simply accept the way of life that assumes that people like you ought to be valued more. We need to stop this nonsense because its just killing american democracy like it has done since beginning. I mean, please. So rod respond, and then well go to josh barrow. The universities are looking more like the 1930s under the reign of the left because people who disagree are terrified of speaking out because theyre afraid theyre going to be called racist and their careers will be ruined, even if they happen to disagree just the slightest bit with this illiberal leftism that is becoming a cult on campus. Thats untrue. The professor knows this and the American People should know this too. Talk to these other people like joshua cats on campus and see what theyre having to deal with. Lets go to josh barrow. Josh. I think were all overstating a little bit the importance of what happens at princeton and no offense to either of you, ordinarily a way we talk about government, the government of monopo monopoly, use of force, they can impose their will on people. What rod is describing here is a certain phenomena happening within private institutions largely that people dont have to be affiliated. You dont have to be you dont have to work at a specific company or do business with a particular retailer and so theres always the option of exit. Thats a really important difference between when, you know, the president sends the police to forcibly clear out Lafayette Park so he can have a photo op, hes using the police for that power whereas if youre not happy with, you know, employee policies at google or youre not happy with the ad campaign that retailer that you shop at has taken on because you think its too woke or whatever, you have the option of exit to the extent that there are a lot of people who agree with rod about this, there should be a Critical Mass for those institutions to serve his kinds of interests. I think partly those are people overstating the importance of the phenomena. I think there are some choices that private institutions have been making that are unwise that i would not like if i was affiliated with those institutions but thats the nature of our society is that communities get to make choices for themselves. If if you dont like those you can affiliate somewhere where you dont have to deal with those choices. So rod, i think well, go ahead and respond, rod, and then ill speak to a bigger concern. Go ahead. Sure, real quick, josh, i would just say that the nature of this soft totalitarianism thats coming that so much of it is done not in government as we think of normal totalitarianism would be but through private industry and private institutions. By imposing the sort of uniform code of wokeness from institution to institution and profession to profession through medical licensing and law schools and so forth, its going to be really hard, i think, for people who disagree in good faith to even enter these professio professions. This is the sort of the thing that worries me very much. We dont see it coming because its not guilty cocoming from t i dont think i agree with that. Necessarily those institutions will have to yeah. I think partly what were seeing here is so rod, i think and so for a lot of people, i asked josh to be on the show because josh is at times called out lets say Political Correctness or wokeness, david french obviously the same. Im like wise ive been concerned for 40 years about what happens on college campuses. Ive been concerned for 40 years about many of the things that you say. In fact, i remember in 1996 when i was in congress, i went and i gave a talk at Pensacola Christian College and all the kids were saying all the students were saying should we run for congress . Because i was like 32, 33 at the time. I was like no, no, no. You should go to college campuses. You should go to hollywood. You should go to madison avenue. You should impact the culture, and i think part of conservative christians problems over the past 40 years is they have obsessed on politicians who always let them down, and theyve lost the culture battle because they have been so obsessed on Winning City Council races all the way up to the presidency. I couldnt agree with you more, joe. This has been a huge problem for my side. Weve thought if we just get the right politicians in office and the right judges on the bench, the culture would take care of itself. In fact, weve learned to our great dismay that culture precedes politics. In my book i call on conservative christians to return to a greater focus on culture. David french, do you have a question . I think i want to jump in to the princeton fight for a minute or the campus fight for a minute. It always goes back to princeton. Go ahead. I spent about 20 years litigating on campuses against speech codes and litigating on behalf of professors who faced job reprisals for conservative speech or christian speech, so this phenomenon and whats happening on campus, a, is very real, and b, its not new. So i think u. Just flat out denyg theres a problem with illiberalism on campus isnt really credible, but at the same time we dont have to have our eyes closed to illiberalism on either side. Yesterday the fcc is going to do rule making that could have real consequences for free speech online. Thats free speech that impacts all of us, not just College Students and professors. Again, i think we have a rising tide of illiberalism coming from both sides of the political spectr spectrum. In many ways its more severe from the right because trump happens to be president of the United States and the right controls the levers of government power for now. I think rod is highlighting a very real phenomenon of illiberalism. The idea that our campuses have not been a home of illiberal thought and policy including government policy from government schools is just completely wrong. And i think thats the concern, rod, about illiberalism from both sides, and one other concern that ive had, you know, there have been certain people on the right like yourself that have been drawing comparisons as you have to soviet totalitarianism. John sullivan, a former conservative, at least in my eyes says this, quote, liberal democracy shares a number of alarming features with communism. That is repellant certainly to my ears hearing those words. But its something its a view that you share . Well, i share it to a certain point, yeah. Theres a polish professor, who wrote a really interesting book called the demon in democracy. What she compared liberal democracy to what he fought as a member of the Solidarity Trade Union in poland, and the main similarity is that they are totalizing ideologies that have no respect for anything outside those ideologies, and i think it can liberal democracy can be soft totaltarian as i say, and we need to be careful about that and make sure that people who run these institutions of our liberal democracy are being properly respectful of free speech, freedom of religion, and Free Expression because this is the sort of thing that im seeing that makes it seem totaltarian when they are not. So eddie, i want to give you the last word, my good friend eddie glaude. So this is obviously a concern that we conservatives have had for many years, many of the things that rod is saying you are correct, conservatives have been complaining about for 40 years, closing of the American Mind written in 1986. To me, at least, eddie, seems just as relevant today and was a precursor to what rod is writing today. If you read Russell Kirks seventh introduction into the conservative mind, he also warnings warns of days coming that rod is talking about right now. So what am i talk to me as a friend, what am i missing when i look at college campuses, even when i went to the university of alabama 40 years ago, 30 years ago, whenever it was, a long time ago, the university of alabama and conservatives could not get tenured. All my conservative professors never got tenured. That is a part of american academia, is it not . Well, i think we would have to look at the cases in particular, joe. I think its important for us to understand the debates around the universities as bound up with the cultural revolution, the black freedom movement, the Womens Movement of the mid20th century and how it changed the nature of the landscape of Higher Education in the country, and what did it mean for women and for people of color to enter into these spaces and put pressure, to bring pressure to bear on how knowledge was produced, and so part of what weve been seeing over the course of 20th century american conservatism is seeing american universities and colleges as the last bastian, the last space to cultivate and produce a certain kind of political subject that is more inclined to progressivism and the like, and so this has been an all out assault. I mean, we dont hear people talking about what it means for boards of trustees to change the way in which schools are funded, how tuition has been i mean, i can go on and on and on, we dont have much time. Theres a debate to have about the changing Politics Around american Higher Education and the way in which bloom is connected to straus and all those other folks, we could have that. Its interesting that dreher is going to focus on the left and hes not talking about the trumps, we have no mention in the book of those folks, the context that produced those folks who are protesting with ar15s, who are killing people. Theres no mention at all of the context that would produce folk who are plotting to kidnap governors in michigan and in virginia. What are we talking about here . We end with the conversation about christians and suffering, but we hear no talk, no talk relatively little talk about christians and love because at the heart of this vision is something very dark, something very, very sinister, and something that makes me shutter in my bones. Im not worried about the soft totalitarianism. Im worried about whats so familiar coming out of the mouth of folk like dreher. Well, i think i think we need to come back to this. That was a 90 Miles Per Hour fastball, joe. Whoo. That was, and its high and inside, and rod, i kind of feel like since youre our guest and eddies on an awful lot, i need to let you swing at that thing, but let me kind of try to slow it down and move it more to the middle of the plate. Can we all agree here today with David Frenchs assertion that the illiberalism we see we see coming from both the left and the right, and this is not what aboutism, but there is, though, an illiberalism, and you do see a liberalism on the right, you do see illiberalism on the left. Would you agree with david french that we need to be concerned about that coming from both sides . Yeah, i agree that it is on both sides, but this is a david versus goliath thing. Professor glaude shutters because he cant stand anything that contradicts his left wing point of view. Its people like him who are running institutions and who are terrifying anybody who disagrees into silence. This is true, and the fact that he cant see it and elites like him cant see it is one aspect of why its so totaltarian. By the way, were looking right now at a picture of two men, not me, put them up. Two men. Look at them. There we go. That have sold gobs of books this year at the top of the New York Times best sellers list. We need to turn the entire show over to them because theyre the elites. I wish i could sell half as many books as both of them. Hey, guys, thank you for this is this is hard, and this is a great conversation that needs more time, and were going to do it. Yeah, we hope, rod, you and eddie will come back, and we can sort this out. We can synthesize it. I have faith. Happy to come back, and ill tell you, if you want to sell some books, go to lsu. Graduate from lsu, it will do your career so oh, lord. You know what . Goodb goodbye. Theres a little tear coming down the left cheek of baby jesus right now. Oh, stop it. Its time for us to go to break. The new book is live not by lies a manual for christian dissidence thank you. Eddie glaude jr. , and david french thank you for this discussion. Up next, former white house photographer pete souza will be our guest. As we go to break, we wanted to mention a new landmark with close ties to my family, its a landmark. Its in poland. Its in the the city of krakow, which named one of its beautiful garden squares after my father, zbiginiew, krakow. Its squares, soaring cathedrals, its rich academic heritage and was so impressed by its special role in polands history. I speak for my family when i say that we hope this park will not only memorialize my dad and his lifes endeavors but also inspire those who walk through it to contribute to the greater good. We are forever grateful. That is so moving. And i know that means so much to you. Thank you. And to ian and to mark and i am going to enjoy it because ive been told that when you walk through the park, theres a retina scan, and theres a little speaker underneath that says you are stunningly keep it right here on morning joe. Just pick your protein, select your doneness, and let the grill monitor your food. It also turns into an air fryer. Bring outdoor grilling flavors indoors with the grill that grills for you. Im looking for my client. Im so sorry. Accountant. [ sighs ] hey hey man youre here. You dont trust me here is vegas, do you . Well. I thought we had a breakthrough with the volkswagen. We did. Yes. We broke through. Thats the volkswagen thats the cross sport. Wow. Seatbelts. Please, just tell me where were going. Lookentertainmentour experience xfinity x1. Its the easiest way to watch live tv and all your favorite streaming apps. Plus, x1 also includes peacock premium at no extra cost. This baby is the total package. It streams exclusive originals, the full peacock movie library, complete collections of iconic tv shows, and more. Yup, the best really did get better. Magnificent. Xfinity x1 just got even better, with peacock premium included at no additional cost. No strings attached. In mass incarceration of black and brown communities. The shame is on all of us. Im working to right the wrongs of injustice. Ending cash bail. Ending the war on drugs. Decriminalizing sex work, and passing major sentencing reform legislation. But until we Reimagine Community safety and end police brutality, we must keep working to reform our racist criminal Justice System thats shameful to us all. During my eight years as the chief official white house photographer for the obama administration, i documented all the important moments of his presidency. The emotion, the tough decisions, the stressful times, the fun times. But also showing what he was like as a dad. As a husband. Just as a human being. To me, that shows how the job of the president should be done. That is a clip from the new documentary titled the way i see it which airs tonight at 10 00 p. M. On msnbc. The film offers an unprecedented look behind the scenes at president S Barack Obama and Ronald Reagan as seen through the eyes of renowned white house photographer pete souza. And pete joins us now. Good morning. Great to see you. This was a documentary airing tonight on msnbc that comes off your bestselling book of photographs. How did this come to life in documentary form . Well, i was approached by laura dern and her production partner along with evan hayes who produced free solo about participating in a documentary film. And i thought about it for a couple months and i agreed to be a part of this. So these photographs, so many of them, and im thinking about one in particular, a well, thats a great shot right there, but another one in the situation room during the bin laden raid. You truly were a fly on the wall to history. And you saw so much, not just with president obama but also with president reagan. What is it like, not necessarily in the easy or happy moments but in the difficult moments to be in the room for Something Like the bin laden raid . Well, i mean, i think that was probably the tensest 40 minutes of his presidency, without a doubt. And, you know, my job is to try to capture the mood and the emotion thats taking place as it plays out in front of my camera. And doing it in a way where im not interfering at all with whats happening. But i have to say that that, you know, was obviously an historic day. You know, we didnt know how the raid was going to turn out. And if it had turned out the wrong way, it still would have been an historic day and a different kind of result, unfortunately. I want to take another look at a clip from the film which airs tonight on msnbc. This is jake of philadelphia. At one point, jacobs mom said, mr. President , jacob has a question for you. So jacobs kind of like, mr. President , my friends tell me that my haircut is just like yours. And with that, president obama bnt over. Jacob touched his head, click, i got one photo, and it was gone. That image was what barack obama had said to us two years ago in an office in chicago. That kid cant even believe, even though hes seeing the president of the United States in his office, until he can feel his hair, he doesnt believe hes just like me. That image stands for so much more. How kids will see themselves differently forever. But, too, it tells you something about barack obama. At the behest of a 5yearold kid hed go ahead, bend over and let that kid touch your head like that. A beautiful moment. So many Beautiful Moments captured by you, pete souza. What does it take to be chosen for a job like that . What are the attributes, and what are the techniques that you put into play every day to be able to capture such personal moments, such important moments and not get in the way of the moment . Yes, its somebody the other day called me a professional chameleon, and i said that i was going to use that because i thought that probably describes it pretty accurately where you are trying to just blend in to whats taking place and not interfering. Just hanging around. Just being there all the time. Because, obviously, you dont know when history can happen. You dont know when these fleeting moments that are so revealing about the president as a human being. You dont know when those are going to happen unless youre there. Hey, pete, nobody, none of us, 320 Million People, cannot begin to imagine the pressures that are on president s. You have been around quite a few. What can you tell us behind the scenes about the daily pressures, hourly pressures, the pressures by the minute that these men face. We sit here. Its so easy for us to criticize this move or that move by every president. But it really is. Its at another level. Can you give us a moment where you saw that firsthand . Yeah, i mean, i will say that, you know, working at the white house and i think for a president , too, its as if youre trying to take a sip of water from a fire hose that never shuts off. Thats an analogy that andy card, i think, came up with. But, you know, the i would tell your viewers that the decisions that come to the president s desk are the ones that havent been solved before they get to the desk. Its the difficult ones. And i can tell you, like theres so many days where there was not just one big decision there to make. There were like five. And youve got to be able to move from one topic to another all in the course of the same day. And, you know, you have a meeting in the oval office. You finish that meeting and go down to the situation room and have a meeting about afghanistan. And it was like that constantly. I think people sort of lose sight of the fact that, you know, every day theres multiple decisions that a president has to make. You had such a rare look at all of it. Well be watching tonight. Its called the way i see it. It airs commercialfree, 10 00 p. M. Eastern right here on msnbc. Pete souza, thank you very much. Guys, as we wrap, joe, you left the best school in the s. E. C. Out of your last segment. Go commodores. Also, President Trump right now is attacking Susan Collins on twitter. A republican in a fight for her life in the state of maine because he heard she may not vote for the nominee. He doesnt even need her vote for Amy Coney Barrett. Going after her as she fights for her life in maine. That is everything you need to know. We want to thank everybody for watching today. Our segment with rod and eddie was uncomfortable at times, but thats what we do here. And, you know what, weve got to learn how to stop talking past each other. Start talking to each other. Were going to get that panel back and others like it moving forward because weve got to come together as a country. Weve got to bridge the gap. Weve got to synthesize and come together as people on the left and the right are fighting