Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20200629

Theyre lying and you know theyre lying. If this isnt the turn, i dont know what it is. Well and golfing amid a Public Health crisis that killed over 125,000 americans and counting. Infections are surging with arizona, florida and texas as the latest epicenters. Good morning and welcome to morning joe, it is monday june 29th. With us we have White House Reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. Former chair of the Republican National committee now an msnbc political analyst, michael steele. Correspondent and host of kasie dc kasie hunt. And the reverent al sharpton, great to have you with us on this monday morning. The u. S. Has get erred intelligence that russia has offered to pay bounties to those who kill americans. The New York Times first broke the story on friday,s aspects o which have been patched and reported by cnn, the washington journal, and abc news. According to the times large amounts of American Cash at a taliban outpost in afghanistan helped tip off officials. But we have not confirmed the u. S. Verified any bounty payments were made. According to intel gleaned from intergraduatiorogation interrogations, the Washington Post reports that the russian bounties are believed to have resulted in the deaths of several u. S. Service members. Nbc news has not independently confirmed that reporting. Two officials tell the times that u. S. Intelligence officers and special ops forces in afghanistan alerted their superiors as early as january to a suspected russian plot. Officials developed several potential recourse options for russia, including sanctions, but none have been activated by the Trump Administration. The paper also reports two officials said the information about the bounty hunting was well known among the Intelligence Community in afghanistan, including the cias chief of station and other top officials there, like military commandos hunting the taliban. The information was distributed in intelligence reports, and highlighted in some of them. The assessment was compiled and sent up the chain of command to senior military and intelligence officials. Eventually landing at the highest levels of the white house. The paper also reports the Administration Shared information about the assessment with the British Government, as joe mentioned, whose forces were among those said to have been targeted. The times also reports that President Trump was briefed on the findings and the White Houses National Security Council discussed the problem at an interagency meeting in late march. According to the times, the reporting was described in the president s daily brief, a written summary of high level National Security matters. Problem there for the president is that its written. It would be unusual if Something Like this was verbally said to him. Something so explosive. Yet a Senior Administration official tells nbc news that the president was never briefed on the issue because there is no consensus within the Intelligence Community on these allegations. Because against again all the reporting and the sourcing and the white house and trump himself denied knowledge of the russian plot but didnt deny existence of the report. Yeah. National intelligence director John Radcliffe also denied late saturday trump had been briefed, but russia and the taliban have, of course, denied the report. Lets bring in Charlie Savage, who broke this story. Thanks for being with us. The New York Times reporting this was well known among cia and the Intel Community, caused so much concern we notified our allies in britain and the New York Times also reporting this was in the president s Daily Briefing and also the president himself was briefed. Is that correct . I think also could be the same thing there. What we have at this point and were continuing to peel back the onion on this. We have one official telling us this was briefed at the highest levels of the white house. And we have another official telling us it was in the written president ial daily brief document, the written briefing handed to mr. Trump. Whether or not he read it maybe is another question and we are still trying to figure out what they mean when they say he wasnt briefed, assuming there is a grain of truth to that, which is an assumption we have to proceed with, but we have flagged with a grain of salt. More broadly its important to recognize the assessment has been confirmed by many other publications with their own sourcing but the administration has not denied this was developed months ago by the Intelligence Agency, they convened an interagency meeting about it in late march to wrestle with what to do about it. They ordered and commissioned a set of a menu of options of responses beginning at the lowest end with telling moscow we know youre doing this, knock it off, a diplomatic complaint and proceeding up a sliding scale of sanctions and more aggressive steps. And they have not denied that the white house has not authorized any of those steps not even the mere diplomatic complaint. So they seem to have coalesced around a strategy of focussing on the notion that trump was not briefed, whatever that seems to mean and theyre not providing granular detail on whether they dont count having it written in materials in his hands if he didnt read it. But notably trump himself seemed to be casting apersians on the intelligence or the existence of it, scacalled it so called or suggested it might be a hoax, like the russia hoax but that goes beyond the communication strategy developed by the people around him. Joe . Once again, charlie, we have the white house unfortunately having to scramble because the president changes his mind on what lie he wants to pursue me saying that not you as a reporter. Thank you. But its fascinating that at first donald trump said he didnt get the briefing and then he changes his story and starts suggesting that this might be a hoax. And yet, charlie, didnt you say in march this was considered so serious by the Intel Community that the National Security council convened a meeting in late march to figure out how to respond to Vladimir Putins russian government putting bounties on the heads of american soldiers and they came up with several options. None of which have been followed through on by this president. So it begs the question, if they didnt think this was well, let me state it another way. If they thought this intel was so damning that they needed to convene interAgency Meetings so figure out how to respond to the threat, doesnt that suggest right there that, first of all, it was important enough to take to the president of the United States, which, of course, your reporting says they did. And secondly, that donald trump is, once again, undercutting his own intel agencies like he did at helsinki. Certainly saying socalled and saying everyone has denied this, which means the russians denied this, careys echos of the helsinki summit when President Trump said putin had strong denials that russian meddled in the 2016 election which the american Intelligence Community said it did. If the thats what youre referring to. Building on that for one second, late yesterday, 48 hours into this thing, the administration put out a new claim, which was this was never briefed to the president because there was disagreement. There was not a consensus within the Intelligence Community that it was real and a Senior Administration official on team trump putting that out yesterday. And, you know, well continue to explore that and dig into it, but our information is contrary to that. We are hearing that actually, there was not push back or a disagreement among the Intelligence Community that this was real. There were differents a aspects this, different a types of intelligence, signal, and different agencies because of their expertise placed different level of confidence into different types of intelligence streams. So there were disagreements on a confidence level at different aspects of this complicated thing but that is different than saying people just didnt even agree about whether there was any there there, which is the latest message from the white house. Okay. Thank you so much, charlie. Jonathan lemire, the cia station chief in afghanistan knew about it, it was well known by the cia there. It was well known in washington d. C. Taken so seriously they convened a meeting at the end of march. It was put in the president s Daily Briefing. And yet, the president president s going back to what he did in helsinki where hes once again undercutting u. S. Intel agencies, once again undercutting a cia station chief and the findings they found in afghanistan. And deciding to go with Vladimir Putins word that he didnt put a bounty on american soldiers head instead of his own Intel Community. The president , again, knew about this, according to the reporting, in late march. Here we are in late june and the president still hasnt even brought it up with Vladimir Putin who he was calling his good friend two months after he was notified of this. Two months after he was notified of this. Its an extraordinary piece of intelligence, joe. If were to believe that the president wasnt briefed on this, then that raises a host of questions why he wasnt . Was he not trusted with the information or those briefing him afraid of what his reaction would be. But it defied logic that he wouldnt be told about this. Youre right, there are echos of helsinki here. Echos of his repeated deferns to Vladimir Putin. No retaliation, no warning, no stern message sent to moscow. No sanctions, no broadsides at putin since march, since this information came out. There hasnt been anything over the last few days since the story became public, other than denials and an effort by the administration to keep the president out of it. And the president on twitter the last couple days, as you say, sort of denigrating the quality of u. S. Intelligence which is what he did in that summit in finland almost exactly two years ago, but it speaks to a broad pattern of deference to Vladimir Putin. Of course, he spoke admireingly of him during the 2016 campaign, he called for russias help. His relationship to russia was the center of a two year probe let by robert mueller. Since then we have seen, even as the administration at times has moved to be tough on russia, the president himself has been an obstacle to that. He has never wanted to crack down on moscow, condemn putin in some of their lower profile meetings as well. We know they speak on the phone with some frequency. In the last couple months President Trump wanted to invite Vladimir Putin for an expanded g7 meeting over the objections of the other European Countries who were in that group of nations. He wanted to invite Vladimir Putin to the white house soon after helsinki. This seems to be another moment in a pattern where he simply will not challenge Vladimir Putin. Michael steele, thats what makes all of this so consistent with the way hes behaved in the past but also so disturbing. When this first came out, you look at the news, go wait a second, donald trump is in this terrible position because we know hes never going to criticize Vladimir Putin for reasons that perhaps you and i will only learn years from now. But we know that. But hes just gotten word or he got word in march from his intel agents that Vladimir Putin is now putting bounty on the heads of Young Americans and having islamic militants trying to kill Young Americans to get cash from the russians. That was in late march. And this is what donald trump said on may the 8th, a couple of months later. We have this great friendship. And by the way, getting along with russia is a great thing. Getting along with putin and russia is a great thing. Thats donald trump after he had in his president ial Daily Briefing that Vladimir Putin put bounties on the heads of Young American troops. And i just michael, does the white house really expect everybody to be so stupid to believe that they do. You have one of the most serious pieces of intel to come across a president s desk at a time hes trying to invite him to the g7, at a time hes continuing to say that russias a good friend of his, and theyre not going to tell the president . That suggests hes so addled and so mentally deficient they didnt think it was worth their time telling him or that hes a source of the russians and they couldnt trust him. Theres no other good explanation why you wouldnt tell the president that the leader of russia is putting bounties on the head of Young American troops. I will take up that challenge and they they did brief him. I do not believe that something as important and severe as this was left untold to the president of the United States. What i think is disturbing is his reaction to it once he was told. The fact that there has been nothing done. There has been no rebuke officially from the United States and the fact that the white house, even over the course of the president s tweets still has not denied the underlying intelligence that this is, in fact, what happened and this is, in fact, what we do know. And the reality is, the president tweets this is something to make republicans look bad. No, this is something that makes you look bad because the fact of the matter is, youre the one whos in the focus here. This is not a political issue. This is a bounty placed on the heads of american soldiers. You are the commander in chief, all right. So if this isnt about politics. This is about what you do as a leader of men and women in uniform. Who now find out that you are okay with a bounty on their head by your by our adversary. So this is what hes going to have to account for. He cant spin this out. There may be some republicans who will run to his defense, that will be curious to watch. No. You cant i cant sigh that. Come on, now. There has to be a line. Kasie hunt, liz cheney has good questions about this. She was tweeting over the weekend. Shes one republican who wants to know why werent the president or Vice President briefed . Had. They were. Was it in the president ial Daily Briefing . Yep. Who knew and when . What has been done in response to protect our forces and hold putin accountable . What say the republicans at this point, kasie hunt . Are they so morally worn down by this president that they will not have the right answer for the United States of america . Well, mika, we obviously have to put that question to republicans and i think that third piece of what liz cheney underscores there, what is being done, is a question that, you know, every lawmaker has a duty to answer now that they are aware through the public reporting that this was going on. Were still trying to figure out who, if anyone, in congress knew. Why they would have talked to them or not. My colleague, ken dilanian has some reporting that perhaps some were briefed but the ap reporting that briefing is not happening until today. Were trying to nail down the details. But the reality of the story is theres no good answer for the president if he didnt know because his intelligence officials were afraid to bring it up to him and underscore it because they werent sure if he would approve one of the options they had on the table and the times did report there were various potential options discussed. Thats a theme thats come up in this presidency that he hasnt been willing to take actions presented to him or hes doubted the information underneath it. So perhaps thats part of what happened here. But there is no good explanation. Any one of these kind of rabbit holes you go down has its own set of land mines and enormous problems for this president. I think the fact you have liz cheney, who has shown a willingness throughout this administration to push back against the president on matters of National Security. Liberal democrats dont agree with liz cheney or any other member of her family and thats understating the issue on some of this stuff but there are a lot of republicans who have been in that camp historically. I think this is something thats going to put an incredible amount of pressure on them. And it is one more thing, as, you know, there are so many other issues they have to grapple with with this president and his poll numbers are falling, the trend lines are terrible for him. And to have this sort of clear cut moral issue that talks about the men and women that are still on the ground in afghanistan fighting for us every day, the president has potentially known about this for months and he does nothing to protect them, that is trying to answer those questions and defend this president is a very, very difficult position to be in so if that is going to happen, i think those contortions will be pretty obvious. Think about that if youre a parent that have a son or a daughter in afghanistan. And the commander in chief has known for months that Vladimir Putin and the russians have put a bounty on their head, to have them killed by islamic militants and the president of the United States does absolutely nothing about it . And its considered so serious that the National Security council convenes in march to consider sanctions or at least a diplomatic scolding. And trying to figure out what actions to take. And three months later, no actions have yet to be taken. Think about being the father or the mother of a child in afghanistan. Or the husband or the wife, the spouse, whos in afghanistan. And this is considered so serious that the cia station chief warned about it in afghanistan. That it was, quote, well known in afghanistan that Vladimir Putin had put bounties on Young Americans heads for islamic militants to kill them and the president is doing nothing. This is considered so serious by our intelligence agencies that they convene a meeting at the end of march, and we notify our government notifies the British Government to warn them that there are also bounties on the heads of british soldiers from Vladimir Putin. And yet, this warning, the white house wants you to believe that despite the fact the cia knew it, despite the fact that the president s own National Security council knew it, despite the fact that it was so serious they convened a meeting in march to consider a range of options to take against the russian government and Vladimir Putin for putting bounties on the heads of Young American troops, despite the fact it was considered so serious they notified the british, think about this. Youre being told that they notified the British Government, but they didnt even tell the president of the United States. I just ask, how stupid do they think you are . And how low does the president think he can take you, and his supporters, in supporting a president who was told in a president ial Daily Briefing months ago, to the man that he called a friend of his in may, was putting bounties on the heads of u. S. Troops back in 2019. It is it is just mind blowing. Mind blowing. And heres the thing. Its all going to come out. The truth is all going to come out. There are going to be people testifying before congress, under oath, theyve got the president ial daily briefs. They have the intel. Its all going to come out. So, republican senators pick sides. And there are only two sides to pick here by the way. There are only two sides to pick here. This isnt about being a democrat or republican, a trump supporter or opponent. You can pick the side of u. S. Troops or you can pick the side of Vladimir Putin. Theres really, theres no gray zone here. You cant stick your head under the covers and pretend that donald trump is going to go away. Because yes, he is. Hes going to get voted out. You think he is. So you think you can no, you cant hold on for six months. Speak out for our troops today. This stain will stay. Speak out for our troops today. Charlie, the report, the latest report from New York Times is, that information is that u. S. Troops, actually with bounties on their head, were actually killed. Can you is that is that the Washington Post . It may have been the Washington Post. Tell us where you ire going ne and your team. Where youre going next with this reporting. Thats certainly a place to be drilling down more. Yes, the post were the first to say that troops were actually believed to have been killed under this. We had previously reported that bounties had been collected which is 95 of the way there. And we have subsequently confirmed yes, there are several incidents that they have been looking at as part of this process that was going on behind closed doors since the first part of this year in trying to tease out what was going on here and why and what, specifically, manifested. In addition were still peeling back the onion of how this unravelled and what the intelligence was that led to this assessment in our reporting today we discussed the discovery of a large amount of money at a taliban compound that was raided. Its not unusual to find some money but apparently an extraordinary amount of American Cash which was unusable and raised suspicions that something unusual was going on, so thats another layer to peel back and we have some other threads were pulling on as well but i will not put those on television until we have nailed it. Thank you, charlie. Charlie, incredible reporting. What a story. We want to now get to this, which would have been our lead this morning, President Trumps retweet of a video over the weekend showing a man in a golf cart with the Trump Campaign gear, wearing it, shouting the words, white power. According to the tweet, the video was from a Florida Retirement Community known as the villages and featured residents protesting against each other. The man who is heard shouting white power was responding to protesters yelling racist. The tweet was removed from his feed hours later. In a statement the white house said trump is, quote, a big fan of the villages but did not hear the one statement made on the video. Well note back in april when the president retweeted a tweet which included the firefauci, trump was asked if he noticed the hashtag. Why did you retweet something that said fire fauci. I retweeted what does it matter. Did you notice that . I notice everything, yeah. He notices everything. Reverend al in the video, it opens quickly, its loud, the words are very clear, the words white power, yeah, white power, eight seconds in. I guess i could believe the president wouldnt have the Attention Span to get to the end of the video but this is eight seconds in. Your response . It was eight seconds in, you couldnt miss it if you tried. But the overriding factor here is that the whole point of the exchange was one side calling the other racist and the other side saying, white power. So if he did not get the depth of the exchange, then what did he retweet it for . You dont retweet things unless youre trying to project some reason to retweet it. It is obvious on its face that he heard it and he intended to send a signal to his so called base or his assumed base. What is so troubling here, though, is in the midst of this movement around social justice, systemic racism where the president has had political laryngitis in even addressing the issue of systemic racism, addressing what happened with george floyd, he would choose to retweet white power while whites and blacks are marching all over the country trying to get the country to come to terms with it. He would tweet white power video on a day the state of mississippi is voting to move the confederate emblem from their state flag. He would, on that day, try to somehow feed into the american consciousness through his base supporters that its already to yell white power. I think the timing of this and the fact that hes the president of the United States is whats so alarming. We expect this from any normal bigot but for the head of state to do this on a day and in a time like this is absolutely ridiculous. Rev, joe, it just shows the white house response to this, the president s response to this is so obviously a boldfaced lie. It just shows at this point, when we have this incredible reporting from the New York Times, from Charlie Savage, about the russian bounties, just how easily it is for this white house and this president to lie and to take no responsibility. Well, theyre going to peel back the onion as it pertains to Vladimir Putins bounties on the heads of american troops, thats going to come out. Something like this, though, rev, again eight seconds in this long video, its the first thing you see on the video, a guy shouting white power. Its what its all about. In his trump gear. But its interesting, donald trump only took this down after getting criticized by republican senator tim scott. He never even addressed the criticism of tim scott went on national television, the only black republican in the u. S. Senate and even tim scott could not defend this and he said it was offensive and it should be taken down and then three hours later, the president takes it down. But again, with all that is going on that the president has not addressed, including boycotting of facebook for talking about postings of hate stuff. The president would retweet this in the face of this. The reason im emphasizing the climate from the mississippi vote to facebook to whats going on in the george floyd reaction is because his retweeting this is intentional. This is him firing a shot of course it is. Back to all of us fighting for another way in this country. Its intentional, its his statement, its his saying this is what i think of your movement, this is what i think of youre trying to do in america, and we get the message. Were going to send him a message back. Jonathan lemire, this is just again, this is in line with what hes been doing over well, you could say the last three and a half years, but especially the month of june, which has been a colossal mess for the white house, for Donald Trumps political standing starting june 1st when he sent in the riot squad to clear out peaceful protesters, lied about it, held up a bible, and his numbers have been collapsing ever since. Now he tweets out, again, a white power video, which is, sure, again to lose some votes not only among black voters but again going to those suburbs going to the swaths of former Republican Voters that his campaign desperately needs back for him to remain competitive. Just put the morality of it all to the side, the racism of it to the side if you are a trump supporter because you obviously have to put racism aside if you are helping him get reelected, and look at the fact he has undercut himself and his position and his reelection again at a time when his numbers are going straight down. Youre right, joe, obviously questions have been swirling prior to june 1st about his handling of the coronavirus pandemic but thats a key day. Its been downhill since then. Ive talked to a white house adviser in the last 72 hours or so who pointed out a near daily basis theres been blow back to the president , a lot of it is his own doing, in front of our eyes, that includes the last week or so the debacle that was the tulsa rally. Questions remain about his relationship with Vladimir Putin and bounties on american soldiers and now this video, which again echos previous moments where he has given at least a nod and a wink, if not more, to very racist sentiments, charlottesville being most famous but there have been plenty of others we can go over time and again. This is going to send a disturbing signal to the suburban voters. The white house and the campaign thought theyd make a play for africanamerican voters this time around and that seems that ship has more or less sailed. And michael steele, i wanted to go to you with this, the claim is almost preposterous that the president didnt hear this eight seconds into the video. But i want to focus where this happened, the villages is the largest Retirement Community where Senior Citizen voters last time voted for President Trump at an extraordinary amount he cleaned up there. It was that strength among that population across the nation but particularly florida that helped him win the election. If hes seeing these large antitrump demonstrations there that speaks to his standing among seniors but also florida, a state he cant win without. Whats your assessment so far . Thats right, thats why you saw the president do the retweet of this, to send the message out to that senior base thats been with him that yeah were still in this fight. Theres one part where someone said to me this weekend, i just dont think the president was aware. Im like, dude, the president was more than aware of what he tweeted out. It wasnt hard. It wasnt like he saw the headline and said let me tweet it out. He knows exactly what hes doing. Hes trying to find ways to recoalesce this base. Its fractured in places he cant afford to have it fractured, among seniors, core republicans. Hes dropped from 95 to 84 . Youre seeing suburban voters move off, independent voters move away. To joes point and to yours, that steady decline is a hemorrhaging that donald trump cannot afford. If hes competitive in florida, where does he go after that . How does he then hold together the rest of the coalition . Thats the internal discussion right now that the campaign is having to deal with. The reality on the ground is that hes hemorrhaging support in some key areas, in some key states and there is no strategy in place to get that back. Why . Because of now what we see with the russians, what we see with these tweets, the president becomes his own worst political operative. Instead of trusting the people around him telling him to stay on this particular message and push these themes, the president goes off, he likes a tweet because its favorable to him somebody protrump, white power, he tweets it out and the rest, as they say, is a youknowwhat show. He tweets it to 83 million followers, this racism and hate speech flourishes on places like twitter and facebook. And a question we raised on this show last week about facebook. Are advertisers going to continue to be okay with this as our democracy is impacted so greatly by hate speech flourishing on their sites. Reverend al you were talking a lot yesterday on your show about the Facebook Advertising boycott. There are multiple advertisers saying, no way. This has to stop. We dont know if this is the turning point for President Trump but could it be the turning point for social media . I think it will be a turning point for social media. This boycotti i initiated that weve all joined in is to say you cannot take our consumer dollars and finance hate speech. Even though you can argue you have a First Amendment right to free speech we have the right to say you will not do it with our dollars and sponsorship. So if you want us to consume your product, you cannot take the profits from our pockets and invest in giving someone a platform to spread bigotry and racism. Its just that simple they have the post what they want and we have the right to withdraw dollars and you will go broke and bankrupt for investing our dollars in something latently that is budgigots and you will identify. Derek johnson head of the naacp and i and others had a meeting in Mark Zuckerbergs house with him around voting stuff and around these similar types of issues and tried to make him understand what its doing. We could not get to his head so we will get to his pocket to make him understand you can do it, but you will not be making a profit in doing it. Not off of us. Again, this is the free market, mika, there are a lot of right wingers, not conservatives, there are right wingers that are talking about going in and controlling content on facebook. Which, again, its theres nothing conservative about that. All the rev is saying, all im saying, is let free Market Forces decide this. Right. Its Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl Sandbergs platform, they have decided theyre going to turn it over to White Supremacists, theyre going to allow pizza gate to continue to flourish on there. They decided theyre going to promote boog a loo boys. They decided theyre going to turn it over to foreign country that is interfere in american democracy. They decide when somebody tells the board that they have turned it over, their website over to the russians that Cheryl Sandberg is going to scream and yell and get angry because somebody told the truth about russian infestation that they still were having problems with six months a year later. I mean, you know, they can do that if they want. If Mark Zuckerberg wants to let White Supremacists thrive, thats his business. But nobody has to advertise on it. Thats called the free market. And one of these days, congress is going to realize that we stepped over the line in 1996 when we granted them immunity through section 230. Because nobody saw this coming. That you would have a company this powerful and a guy worth 85 billion, 85 billion, wanting to get even richer because he wouldnt tamp down on hate speech. Wanted to make more than 85 billion because he wanted to let White Supremacists on his website. Wanted to get even richer because he wanted pizza gate conspiracies to still thrive on his websites. As if shooting up that joint once wasnt enough for Mark Zuckerberg. They have no controls. No meaningful controls at all. And now, too little too late. Too little too late. What theyre trying to do is nothing. If youre a racist, if youre a bigot. If youre if you hate black people, if you hate asian people, if you hate jews if you hate america. Where do you go . If youre a foreign country, if youre china, iran, russia, if you consider yourself an enemy of america and you want to undermine american elections in 2020, where do you go . That guy. Hes holding up his hand, come to me. Ill take your money. Im worth 85 billion but i need more money. Ill take your money. Thats where you go. And facebook will not do the right thing. They refuse to. So, congress, you need to strip them of their 230 immunity and go back and rewrite the bill. But americans have the right to sue facebook. Americans should have the right to sue twitter. Americans should have the right to sue anyone who causes harm in their life. Thats called the free market. Enough with this immunity for billionaires. Its outrageous and it needs to end. Reverend al, i want to thank you you, Derek Johnson of the naacp, mr. Greenblatt with adl on your show last night, youre fighting the good fight. Thank you. I think its important to do it and do it together, to show this is about all of us, blacks, jews, latinos, everyone, saying particularly to advertisers you cannot main stream hate. To have your brand next to this is to give legitimacy to that and you cant do it with our dollars. Its free Market Driven and were saying to the congress you have to deal with 230. We must say what is not acceptable in this country. We dont want to silence you, but were not going to condone you, main stream you and endorse you that this is proper behavior. 100 . Reverend al, thank you so much. Still ahead on morning joe, politics and the pandemic. The Republican National convention is just weeks away. And its set to take place in a state with a surging rate of infections. Well talk to a physician who is calling on local officials to step up safely. Youre watching morning joe. We will be right back. Morning we will be right back. You cant predict the future. But a resilient business can be ready for it. A Digital Foundation from vmware helps you redefine whats possible. Now. From the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours. To the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud. Or the City Government Going Digital to keep Critical Services running. You are creating the future on the fly. And we are helping you do it. Vmware. Realize whats possible. Youre first. First to respond. First to put others lives before your own. And in an emergency, you need a network that puts you first. That connects you to technology to each other and to other agencies. 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A record 46,000 cases friday, almost 43,000 on saturday and more than 41,000 yesterday. Florida, south carolina, nevada, and georgia all reported their highest number of daily cases on saturday with more than 2. 5 million cases in the u. S. Now reported, and new infections surging, health and Human Service secretary alex azar issued this warning. The window is closing. We have to act and people as individuals have to act responsibly, we need to social distance, we need to wear our face coverings if were in settings we cant social distance, particularly in the hot zones. Now several governors are rolling back reopening plans. In Texas Governor greg abbott shutdown bars and limited str n restaurant dining amid a spike of cases. In California Governor Gavin Newsom rolled back bars reopening in seven counties, including los angeles. And in florida more beaches closing to stop the spread of the virus as officials try to tamp down on large gatherings. One of those large gatherings still scheduled in florida is the Republican Nationally convention in august, which was just relocated to jackson ville. Now over 200 florida daughters have signed an open letter to jacksonvil jacksonvilles mayor to at least Institute Social distancing and mask mandates at the rnc. Joining us is one of the doctors who signed the letter, dr. Carolyn mcclan han, and state attorney david berg. What is the risk of the rnc taking place with people not necessarily having to wear masks and all clustered together . I ask this because so far at trump events they have removed stickers to guide people about social distancing and they have clustered people together all chanting and waving their arms in a hot environment, at least two i can think of right now. I think its possible to conceive they would try to do this again in jacksonville. How dangerous could that be for people as it pertains to the coronavirus . This definitely can be a nightmare. One of the problems is, when you get a bunch of people, you can say social distance, but people dont social distance. And one of the problems that has really irked me in jacksonville, is our mayor has not had a mandate for face mask wearing yet and we need it. Our numbers are surging in jacksonville, i work at a free clinic and they are the servers at bars, they are the janitors that will be cleaning up after people. I am so nervous that our cases are just going to surge from all of this. Dave aaronberg, im curious after watching pences event yesterday, i believe it was in dallas where there was a large choir singing, all standing close together. I know at trump rallies they had people sign a disclaimer saying that the Trump Campaign cant be held liable if you contract the coronavirus at a trump rally. But what about the rnc in the state of florida, if we get a surge is it truly not the rnc that could be held liable for violating cdc guidelines, violating science and the advice given from the government about what it takes to stay safe from the coronavirus . Mika, there could be some civil liability if you can tie a case of coronavirus to that event. Although the rnc would probably say, there were a million Different Reasons why that person contracted coronavirus not our super spreader event. You can rest assured that attendees will be force todd ton the same type of waiver as people in tulsa. Dr. Carolyn should be commended in writing that letter but i dont think its going to make a difference when the individuals making the decisions here, the governor and mayor of jacksonville will be taking marching orders from one person alone, President Trump, and President Trump does not want the Convention Moved again. He wants it in jacksonville at the end of august and he doesnt want people forced to wear masks. He doesnt want the world to see a packed convention with his supporters Wearing Masks because President Trump sees that as a sign of weakness and runs counter to his narrative of transitioning no greatness. Its sad when it comes to Public Health it is now politicized but thats what we have in the year 2020. Doctor, kasie hunt has a question for you. Kasie. Hi, kasie. Doctor, good morning. Even if every precaution was followed, if every Single Person in that hall wore a mask, if they were sanitizing everything after every event, taking the extra time, is it at all possible that this would be a safe thing to enter at all . And setting aside, we have seen those pictures from the rallies, the president himself refuses to wear a mask, im not saying these things will happen, but is it even possible to make it safe . No. I mean, youre asking for nirvana, for them to act like its perfect, and it wont be. Even with mask wearing, there is a small amount of transition that can occur. And i just am concerned that even if they do all the best things that with that many people, thats a lot of people for even half a percent transmission to occur. So its not going to work, and its just crazy. The democrats are planning a totally virtual convention, why cant the republicans do that . I want to be clear here, we dont care which convention it is or whatever. Its, there shouldnt be a convention putting all those people together. Doctor, thank you very much. Dave well see you later this week. Thank you as well. Coming up a federal judge rules that the government must released Migrant Children being held in i. C. E. Detention centers because of the coronavirus. Nbcs Julia Ainsley joins us with new reporting. Morning joe is coming right back. 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In the last year, flag draped coffins have returned from afghanistan. Now we know Vladimir Putin pays a bounty for the murder of american soldiers. Donald trump knows too and does nothing. Putin pays the taliban cash to slaughter our men and women in uniform. And trump is silent, weak, controlled. Instead of condemnation, he insists russia be treated as our equal. Instead of retaliation, he invites putin to america. When trump tells you he stands by the troops, hes right. Just not our troops. The Lincoln Project is responsible for the content of this advertising. Welcome back to morning joe, it is monday jb june 29th. With us we have reporter jonathan lemire, author of the book a world a brief introduction, richard haas. Retired four star u. S. Army general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrccaffrey. And msnbc news and nbc contributor shana thomas. The u. S. Has gathered intelligence that russian Intelligence Officers have offered to pay bounties to taliban fighters who kill americans, three people briefed on the matter told nbc news. The New York Times first broke the story on friday, parts of the story have been reported by cnn, the washington journal, abc news, and the associated press. The recovery of large amounts of American Cash at a taliban outpost in after fan helped tip off u. S. Officials. But nbc has not verified any such bounty payments were made. According to information gleaned from captured militants in recent months, the Washington Post reports that the russian bounties are believed to have resulted in the deaths of several u. S. Service members. Nbc news has not independently confirmed that reporting. Two officials tell the times that u. S. Intelligence officers and special Operations Forces in afghanistan alerted their superiors as early as january to a suspected russian plot. Officials developed several potential recourse options for russia, including sanctions, but none have been activated by the Trump Administration. The paper also reports two officials said the information about the bounty hunting was well known. Among the Intelligence Community in afghanistan, including the cias chief of station and other top officials there, like the military commandos hunting the taliban, the information was distributed in intelligence reports and highlighted in some of them. The assessment was compiled and sent up the chain of command to senior military and intelligence officials, eventually landing at the highest levels of the white house. The paper also reports the Administration Shared information about the assessment with the British Government whose forces were among those said to have been targeted. The times also reports that President Trump was briefed on the findings and the White Houses National Security Council discussed the problem at an interagency meeting in late march. According to the times the reporting was described in the president s daily brief, a written summary of high level National Security matters. It would be unusual if top officials did not verbally brief the president on something so explosive yet a Senior Administration official tells nbc news the president was never briefed on this issue because there was no consensus within the Intelligence Community on these allegations. Actually, thats ridiculous, because first of all, summarizing what you just read, i was writing it down here, it was well known in afghanistan, including by the cia station chief there that Vladimir Putin was putting cash bounties on the heads of Young Americans. There were intel reports. They were in the the president s Daily Briefing according to the times report. They convened a National Security meeting in march. National Security Council meeting in march to go over the options of how they how to deal with this how to respond to Vladimir Putin and russia putting bounties on the heads of Young American troops. And probably most damning to the president who is lying this morning and saying this is much ado about nothing, its fake news, throwing his Intelligence Community again under the bus and the lies are inconsistent saying he was never notified of this. The Trump Administration was so concerned about this information that they held that National Security Council Meeting at the end of march to figure out what response to take to the government of russia. And get this, this is what the Trump Administration is telling you this morning, and donald trump is telling you, that the Trump Administration was so concerned about this information that the Trump Administration notified great britain. But the Trump Administration didnt notify donald trump . It doesnt pass any sniff test. And i have a feeling republicans and democrats alike on capitol hill are going to be calling people to the hill to get to the bottom of this. General mccaffrey, thank you for being with us this morning. Were greatly honored and we greatly appreciate it. Give us your take on what youve read so far about this russian plot to kill american troops and americas failure to respond several months later. Its simply dumbfounding. The attack on u. S. Troops normally results in an nsc determination on what action theyre going to take. The obvious immediate action would be to go to the russians and tell them to knock ito off. Its also imperilling mr. Trumps own withdrawal policy. I would like to know who in congress was informed, whats the oversight function of congress in this affair. But this bottom line is, the commander in chief of the armed forces, knowing that the russians were trying to target u. S. Forces continue to work on getting him in the g7 instead of protecting the troops. Joe, this is an astonishing situation, a failure of leadership of our 2. 1 million men and women in the armed forces who are supposed to be able to trust their chain of command. I might add, what did secretary esper, the secretary of defense, know . Who did he tell to take what action . Its just an astonishing failure of leadership. General, in all of your years in service dealing with civilian leadership, is it possible, based on your decades of knowledge and experience working at the top levels, that a cia station chief, as well as the military community in afghanistan would know that russians are putting bounties on their troops heads, that the National Security council would know about it, theyd be so concerned theyd notify our allies about it, and yet the commander in chief of the United States would not be told about it, would be kept in the dark . Its impossible. Do you see that as any possibility based on your decades of experience . Ive been in and out of the white house during three administrations, democrat and republicans, there is zero possibility, particularly with mr. Trump trying to kedeal with the russians to get them back in the g7 they wouldnt be told we have a problem here, these people are killing our own soldiers. There is zero probability. So the pathetic lying, mr mr. Granal saying we didnt tell the president , its a failure of leadership in a national apparatus. David ignatius, if it werent credible the cia station chief wouldnt have passed it to the nsc, the nsc wouldnt have had meetings in march trying to figure out what to do about this and wouldnt pass it onto the British Government as we have done, certainly. Give us your reaction to the shocking story thats come out and the fact that the white house has done nothing about it for three months now. Joe, based on my reporting trying to confirm the New York Times excellent story. Its clear in late march you had senior u. S. Commanders, senior civilian intelligence officials, in effect pounding on the door of the white house saying we need to do something about this, we need to come to a conclusion about what damage the Russian Program is doing, we need to reassess our programs in afghanistan. And they couldnt get an answer. To this day theres not an answer. Theres not a real response. Was this because the president was briefed and did nothing or because he wasnt briefed because people were afraid to give him bad news and kept it to themselves. I dont know. But it almost doesnt matter in terms of the breakdown in terms of the way the government is supposed to work. In some ways its almost worse they departmeidnt tell him. Mr. President while youre encouraging russia to rejoin the ga, we should mention russia is putting bounties on the heads of american soldiers. If they didnt tell him that, its a stunner. We know this has become a subject of intense debate within senior members of the military and the cia and they were pushing towards two sides towards the nsc in march for meetings and conversations. I think people are steamed up about it, theres nothing that would make american commanders angry other than the idea that their soldiers had targets on their back because of the actions thof somebody that the president was still speaking of as a potential ally. With your decades of experience in washington d. C. , reporting at the highest level of governments, white house, the highest levels of the Intel Community, what chance is there that it would be commonly known, among americans in afghanistan, that Vladimir Putins russia was putting bounties on the head of american troops that the cia station chief would know about it, so the cia in washington would know about it, the National Security council would know about it, theyd be so concerned and call a meeting in march and based upon your reporting were banging on the president s door, begging him to take action and warn our allies, our closest allies, that there were targets on the heads of their troops as well. And nobody in the white house would tell donald trump . First of all, what are the answe chances of that, and secondly, how badly would that reflect on this president if that were, in fact, the case . I dont know which would be worse. I dont know either. Let me be clear about my reporting. They were pounding on the door of the white house, of the nsc operation, i dont know if they were pounding on the president s door. Thats one of the mysteries here. One of the things that ive watched with this administration is a fear, a growing fear of telling the boss the truth. Because the boss will go nuts. And hell be angry at you and fire you. We saw this again and again in his interventions in military issues in the case of eddie gallagher, the navy s. E. A. L. , the case of the removal of captain crozier, the captain of the theodore roosevelt, the famous photo op at st. Johns church, the president goes ballistic if he gets news he doesnt want to hear. I think this may be a situation like that. But what im confident of is that as people are trying to establish what happened, and understand this is an intelligence puzzle, theyre working off limited information, they want to know were americans killed, how did it happen . I think what upset them most was we were continuing to have a normal dialogue with russia as if nothing had happened. And i think that really bugged people. Yeah, jonathan lemire, id like you to take to richard haas, but is it possible republicans blow this off . Its hard to see that happening, mika. We know its famous how the republicans, those are on the hill, claimed they didnt see the president s tweet or hear what he said and try to run from it. This is going to be a tough one particularly since the party for so long has tried to be tough on russia. Ill further to davids point there, certainly there is a growing sort of trend within the west wing to not deliver the president bad news for fear of his reaction. Most recently when he was told a week or so back that news had gotten out that members of his Campaign Staff tested positive for the coronavirus. Im told it was a legendary t tantr tantrum. That theyd rarely seen him so angry. Richard haus weve been talking all morning about how the president has been deferential to Vladimir Putin, helsinki the most famous example. Take the other side of this, talk about where Vladimir Putins angle is on this. Why would he push for these bounties on american soldiers . In a normal world wouldnt he be fearful of the repercussions from the United States as russia is trying to get back in the g7 and increase its foothold on the world stage or is he so confident there wouldnt be any repercussions from President Trump . Give me 30 seconds to get to that. I spent four years working at the nsc. You wouldnt bring intelligence to the nsc unless you had high confidence of it. The nsc is not an Intelligence Agency its a policymaking body. Thats the first thing. Obviously theres been sufficient that people take it seriously. The array of options people were looking at to simply sanction. I say you go to putin, if no americans had been killed, knock it off. If any american is killed, then Russian Troops in ukraine or the middle east are going to pay a price. Id be very direct. Putin doesnt want that. The one thing putin doesnt want to have is on russian television, Russian Troops coming home in body bags. The foreign wars are unpopular, controversial in russia against the backdrop of the economy doing badly, against the backdrop of covid19. Why would he do that, either he thought the United States would not retaliate or this would be the last nail in the coffin to get the United States out of afghanistan, which weve seen happening anyway with a unilateral withdrawal. But he may have said this is so good, i may have take some risk to this. But i think we should raise the risk and that will get him to backoff. You said that putin might have assumed there would be no response to this, thats exactly whats happened according to all reports. They the nsc got this information in march, have been looking for policy approaches to respond and the president s and the white house has done nothing. General mccaffrey, let me ask you what would the proper response be to learning that Vladimir Putin is putting bounties on the heads of american troops . I think richard pretty much outlined the range of possibilities. Look, it would be straightforward. When people target u. S. Combat forces we normally try and kill them. So we should have gotten after the network and the taliban and russian agents in afghanistan almost immediately once we had this kind of information. I think the other thing, as richard points off, theres tons of offset measures we could take in National Security to push back on this. It doesnt make any sense. I think poor mr. Trump either didnt know because they were afraid to tell him, which i dont believe, i think he knew full well what was going on, he didnt want to jeopardize his angle at getting mr. Putin back into the g7, g8, its a shameful failure of leadership by our president. General what should military leaders, the secretary of defense, what should they do today . What should their reaction to all of this news be today . What would you be doing if you were still a leader in the United States armed forces . One of sheer embarrassment, they better be pulling out the records to understand what did they tell the president , what were their determination, what did the commander know and do . What were the rules of engagement . Did they change any country to protect our forces . Why didnt sent com immediately authorize counter attacks against the taliban and any russian agents involved in this. Lets not let congress off the hook either. Did they know about this issue and what actions did they take in terms of an oversight function . Our government in the National Security arena is breaking down. General, we thank you so much for your insights. And thank you so much for being on our show this morning. We greatly, greatly appreciate it. All right. That last thing he said is entirely true. We are watching this happen before our eyes. The question will be, if the republicans can step up well yeah the general brings up great points. What did they do in the field . How did they change the terms of engagement in the field . What who knew what on capitol hill . When did they know it . Are we witnessing the collapse of our systems all for the sake of trump . Well, there are reports out there that are written that Congress Needs to get that Congress Needs to get to the bottom of this and figure out who knew what and when they did it and what did they do to protect u. S. Troops and why, as richard richard, i want you to underline. Were going to another story but before we do, i want you to underline again the fact that if if it gets to the nsc, the debate over whether its good intel or not is over. The nsc is not comprised of some intel judges or philosopher kings who scratch their head and try to figure out whether its true or not. When it gets to the nsc, they have decided that the intelligence is good, now they need to figure out the policy and how to act on it, right . 100 . Thats why the director of National Intelligence was created. Thats why the director of the cia had a separate hat. The idea was to come up with a coordinated intelligence position. Present it to policy makers and say, heres our intelligence, heres our confidence in it, over to you and then you would discuss what we do in terms of sanctions, targeting the taliban, in terms of telling the taliban, look, this goes ahead, the negotiations are off, what have you. That would be the men ewe u of options. Thats what the nsc does, gets the intel and acts on it. This is an indictment of the new National Security adviser, mr. Obrien, what did he do with this . What options were presented to the president , if not, why not . This has to matter. Richard haass, thank you very much. The book is the world a brief introduction. Might be learning more. Now to the president s retweet of a video over the weekend showing a man in a golf cart with the Trump Campaign gear shouting the words white power. According to the tweet it was from a Florida Retirement Community known as the villages. The man who was heard shouting white power was responding to protesters yelling racist. The tweet was removed from his feed hours later. And in a statement the white house said trump is, quote, a big fan of the villages but didnt hear the one statement made on the video. The statement was at the beginning of the video. Want to get shana thomas take on this. Also joining us, curt bar della. A morning joe contributor. Shana, ill start with you, its just im not going say it, its not possible he didnt hear those words. It is beyond disgusting. He retweeted that. But given where we are at this moment in this country with all the racial unrest were seeing, what are the potential ramifications of this being tweeted to President Trumps 83 million followers . I mean, i you know what, i dont know if he saw it, i dont know if he saw it and saw the villages and saw trump signs and was like, people like me. But it at the very least someone on his team had the wherewithal to actually delete a tweet from his feed but him tweeting to his 83 million followers, the thing is, does it change your mind about President Trump . Does it change anyone elses mind . If what he is trying to do is win an election, i know joe has started to think maybe he doesnt even really want to win this election but if what hes trying to do is win an election, you need to gather votes. He is losing in battleground states. Yes, the election is four months away. We take polling with a grain of salt, thats fine. You are not going to build up a coalition of people in america who want to vote for you if youre tweeting something where someone is yelling white power. Especially in the situation were in. We are trying the president aside trying to have a National Conversation about race in this country, this inflames tensions, but overall from a political standpoint, how does this make people vote for you. Maybe it shores up some of your base, maybe not even all of your base, maybe it shores up some of your base to put this out in the world and distract and do what the president does sometimes but i dont know how you make your polling numbers better, what you put up on the screen there. This is what weve been talk about for some time, of course this is going to be offensive to black americans. But donald trump in thinking im going to somehow solidify my base, if you look at the numbers and see where hes lost support over the past several months, its not just black voters hes loo losing, which is significant enough when the Campaign Team said they were going to thread the needle and win this year with 15, 20 of the black vote. But you chase off suburban voters that the Trump Campaign is desperate to get back because they understand they cant win without getting those voters back. You chase off asianamericans, once a consistent voting block thats gone more democratic over the past several years. So you chase off asianamericans. You chase off hispanics. You chase off the collegeeducated white voters breaking away from the Republican Party in droves since donald trump became president and you go back to 2018 and youve written about this. Donald trump tried racism in 2018 to solidify the base, right, in an off year election where off year elections are always older and wider and more conservative. It didnt work in 2018 when he kept spreading the lies about the caravans of hispanics, of brown people, coming up with lepro si. It didnt work. Him sending troops to the border. Him trying to get people whipped up into a racist frenzy, ended up backfiring. And Donald Trumps Republican Party lost the midterm elections by historic numbers, the greatest vote loss in the history of this republic in a midterm election. It didnt work then and its not working now. So i ask, why is this guy doing this if he wants to get reelected . Well, i think youre seeing, joe, this is like a team thats tanking on purpose almost because theyre not up to the job, they dont want the job anymore, its not fun for him anymore. Time and again weve seen, when someone reveals who they are, its best to believe them. This is the same guy who mockingly refers to the coronavirus as the kung flu virus, speaking as an asian america thats racist by the way, we saw in 2016, for all the talk about the 2016 election, it seems as if republicans have amnesia that there was a 2018 midterms, trumps was using the politics of race and divisiveness and scare tactics like the caravan at the voters, to scare people into voting for republicans. They lost in places they never lost before, places like Orange County in southern california, they got annihilated and in 2018 there was no coronavirus, the economy wasnt on the brink of collapse. There werent questions about the National Security credentials of the president. As hes turning his back on american troops being targeted by russia. None of that in 2018 and the republicans still absorbed catastrophic losses. At some point you have to ask when are republicans in Congress Going to get it that trump, hes already gone. Hes given up, hes not going to win. He doesnt care about them, theres no loyalty there. Are they going to stay with him, go down with the ship or wake up and realize the best thing they can do for their own selfinterest is to cut loose of this while they can. If they stay with this youre going to see a situation where the republicans are forever affixed to donald trump, the Republican Party will not recover from this. A generation of voters will never look past the fact they stood by donald trump while these things were going on, people are dying from the virus, hes ignoring this, ignoring our troops, this is could be a wipe out that the Republican Party may not recover. Curt, thank you. We appreciate having you on. Let me follow up on that, david ignatius. Charlie yesterday tweeted out he was hearing from sources close to donald trump that for the first time theres a suggestion that donald trump may decide to take lbjs route and not run for reelection. Gop operatives are for the first time raising the possibility that real donald trump could drop out of the race if his poll numbers dont rebound. Over the weekend i spoke to a sample of major players, one described trumps psyche as fragile. Charlie has good contacts with not only administration but also contributors to the administration. Weve been hearing for the first time republicans are starting to talk on capitol hill about the possibility that they cannot follow this man into the abyss much longer because they see the poll numbers and understand how badly things are going for them. First of all, ill ask you, have you heard anything from gop operatives that he may be considering not running again, or anything else from republican sources . And where does the Republican Party go from here . Joe, i havent been hearing that trump may throw in the towel. I have to say that would be uncharacteristic from him from everything we know about him. But you do see some key republicans, ed rawlines, carl rove, saying if he continues under the direction hes going, hes going to lose. Being straightforward and emphatic. I think the audience for these comments is gop members of the sp senate. Because i think the senate now increasingly is in play. If theres one thing i know watching the republicans, its the power of raw selfinterest. Even mitch mcconnell, if he feels that the republican ability to maintain control of the senate is hostage to this increasingly erratic president , i think its possible that hed begin to distance the party from trump. How trump would react to that, its hard to predict. Trump still has this idea that a base that lets guess at best 30 , can get him elected and can carry with that 30 base a Republican Senate it aint so. The numbers dont work that way and i think its becoming clearer and clearer to operatives who work in campaigns, theyre advising people running for the senate and house seats you have problems. You have to distance yourself. The decision of mike pence to start wearing a mask last night. That tells you something basic about politics. Its a Public Health message sure but its a political message and all that stuff weve been pushing is making the American People angry and we have to stop. I think youll see some other examples of that. This is to close it out, this issue of russian bounties to kill American Service men and women in afghanistan on their way out as they try to negotiate a Peace Agreement thats not going to sit well with republican members of congress. You heard it from liz cheney, shes made and theres a dozen more people as mad as she is. Its hard for trump to manage this, and hes going to have to give answer and distance himself from positions hes taken. David ignatius, thanks a lot. Thank you, david. Mika, you saw the picture, of course speaking of liz cheney, of Vice President cheney wearing a mask. Real men wear masks. A great image. That was wonderful. Still ahead on morning joe, does trumps reelection hinge on getting voters to hate joe biden . Mrk mcginnen is writing about that and he joins us next on morning joe. Lets be honest about it the president is behind today. The National Polls suggest hes behind the its now close to 9 points, six weeks ago it was 5. These things happen in campaigns. The question is not where are the polls today but what does the president need to do in order to regain the advantage . N order to regain the advantage . To give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you dont. [grunting noise] ill take that. Woohoo 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. Ensure max protein. With nutrients to support immune health. Ensure max protein. We know youre always at univethere for them. X, thats why our advisors are always here for you. Learn more at phoenix. Edu. On the campaign, it really does sound, though, like youre saying do as we say not as we do. Telling people to listen to local officials but in tulsa you defied local Health Officials to have an event that dozens of secret Service Agents and staffers are quarantined after positive tests. In arizona one of the hardest hit states you packed a church with young people who werent Wearing Masks. How can you say that the campaign is not part of the problem that dr. Fauci laid out . Well, i want to remind you again that freedom of speech and the right to peacefully assemble is enshrined in the constitution of the United States. Even in a health crisis, the American People dont forfeit our constitutional rights. And working with state officials, as we did in oklahoma and as we did in arizona, were creating settings where people can choose to participate in the political process. And well continue to do that. I think its really important that we recognize how important how important freedom and personal responsibility are to this entire equation. Vice president mike pence pressed at fridays Coronavirus Task force meeting by cbs reporter paula reid, citing the rampant spread of coronavirus in two facilities a federal judge in california ordered that imMigrant Children must be released from Detention Centers due to covid19. The order applies to 124 children whove been held with their parents for more than 20 days in centers run by immigration and customs enforcement, or i. C. E. There are two such centers in texas and one in pennsylvania. Lets bring in nbc news correspondent Julia Ainsley. Tell us exactly what will happen, julia, as these people are released, and does it apply to more that are potentially coming through . How does this change the entire process . Well, mika, i wish it was necessarily good news for these children but right now its up in the air as to how the government will respond. The judge in this case can only rule on children. Thats been her jurisdiction because of a settlement she first started in the 90s. Now these children will be ordered to be released by july 17th but the government has to decide if theyre releasing them with their parents or without. The judge gave them the july 17th deadline because she has ruled that month after month since the coronavirus began that these children need to be released but so far the government has found ways not to comply. One way they did, we reported on this last month, they gave parents a form that said you can release your child to someone and you can stay here, so they had a choice of staying with them or releasing the child. They took it to the judge and said the parents decided to stay with their children. She said thats not enough. The children need to be released. Some of the children have been there as much as six months because these families have federal stays from courts that says they cannot be deported and the government is holding onto them until that stay might be lifted. In the meantime, the judge says you must release the children. The question is whether or not the government will release them with their parents or go back to a policy of family separation that the president said he would never repeat again two years ago. That sounds exactly like what youre describing, if these children are released without their parents, theyre going to be separated and where would they go . Thats the big question. One thing interesting in the judges order, she pointed to a federal judge in d. C. Who does have jurisdiction over the parents. She said the children could be released with their parents or without or another court, really pointing to d. C. , could decide what to do with the parents. So if that d. C. Judge decides that the parents need to be release as well, that could happen. I should also point out that we are just now hearing about cases in these family Detention Centers, there are 11 cases in one of the centers in texas that you mentioned that the pandemic has been spreading through wider i. C. E. Facilities for some time now. Jacob soboroff and i reported on cases spiking in arizona and watching whats happening in the federal prison population is unsurprisingly so happening in i. C. E. Detention. So the lawyers are saying the children need to be released. Other lawyers are advocating for other immigrants caught in the system. But the government says theyve released as many as they can and these people need to be held. Its a hard case to be made when youre talking about families and children but this is their policy they would hold people until theyre deported, even if it means defying a judges order. And thats what well be watching for. Julia ainsley, thank you very much for coming on this morning with your reporting. Joining us now former adviser to george w. Push and creator and executive producer of the circ circus. Mark mcginnen. He has a new piece out trumps reelection may be pressed on getting people to hate biden. I think thats a hard ask, getting people to hate joe biden. Hes been serving in washington for decades and universally likable. Not a lot has stuck to him and a lot has been thrown at him over the past two years. What are they planning and why would this be the strategy when he doesnt really have the issues, lets put it this way, that someone like Hillary Clinton had . Exactly, right, mika. Thats the challenge. And thats why you see the frustration in the campaign and just this week talking about changing the nickname trump has for biden. Theyre frustrated, and heres why, in 2016, the double haters as i call them, were a significant amount of the electorate. Because donald trump and Hillary Clinton were the two most unpopular nominees in president ial history and 20 of the electorate didnt like either candidate but still voted but of those 16 voted for trump. Flash forward now, look at that same numbers, the double haters are voting for buy biden anywhere from 20 to 60 points. The voters have a history with buy d biden, they know him, theyre familiar with him, he doesnt necessarily light their fires but theyre comfortable with him. The task that the Trump Campaign has which is to make biden has unlikable as donald trump and win those double haters is a massive challenge. But i guarantee between now and the election theyre going to do everything they can, spend every penny dont be surprised if were hearing hunter biden was patient zero in wuhan and brought the virus to the United States. Thats the things theyre going to be grasping for. I dont see it. Jonathan lemire . Mark, youre exactly right with the Trump Campaigns inability to this point to drive joe bidens negatives. They tried everything, china, hunt biden as you say. I want to talk to you about the enthusiasm, the Trump Campaign over the weekend put out a memo touting their candidate has more enthusiasm than those backing joe biden and thats their theory of the case right now. They know theyre down in the polls, they know they dont care so much about the National Polls, theyre worried about the battleground states but they point to enthusiasm, they suggest 35, 40 of the country likes donald trump and were passionate about him and will turn out to vote. Even though theres a larger part of the country that doesnt like him maybe some of them are more tepid in their support of joe biden and theyre trying to suppress that turnout. What you do take on the enthusiasm argument . Were seeing enthusiasm decline for President Trump and rise for joe biden. Can it work for this campaign . Theyre grasping at the only straw they have. Thats the life support is the support among the core supporters in the Republican Party and how committed they are about President Trump and have been. But those numbers are diminishing from the mid 90s to mid 80s now. I guarantee you, i cant predict with any presentaticision the o of the election, i stopped trying to do that in 2016, but i am confident, ill bet the house well see a historic turnout on both sides. There wont be a problem on the del democratic side at least in terms of the turnout. Mark, shana thomas has a question. Mark, i think its interesting. I dont know if you saw the president s answer to sean hannity, when sean hannity gave him a lay yaup, whats your sec term agenda and President Trump went on a rambling thing. Do you think this president and campaign can message biden hate if they cannot effectively message what theyre going to do in a second term. And as you know, the second term for a president , this campaign, its a referendum on President Trump, not on joe biden. How can they effectively message joe biden if they cant effectively message themselves . Thats a great question. That i think is the greatest problem right now strategically, they dont have a clear rational for a second term. That was shocking to me when hannity asked that question and trump was unable to answer that. That was something locked and loaded like the day after the 2012 election, talking about making America Great again. Now talking about transition to greatness. Theyre not clear about that message. One of the things on the Bush Campaign we decided early on in the reelect. Whatever strategy we nailed down, we should stick with it. In other words, even it. In other words, even a lot of Healthy Foods are very acidic and arent necessarily great for your teeth. The acid can actually wear away at the enamel which over time can cause sensitivity and a lot of people start to see their teeth turn yellow. I like to recommend pronamel to my patients to help them protect their teeth and keep the enamel strong. I like to recommend pronamel to my patients but a resilient business you cacan be ready for it. Re. A Digital Foundation from vmware helps you redefine whats possible. Now. From the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours. To the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud. Or the City Government Going Digital to keep Critical Services running. You are creating the future on the fly. And we are helping you do it. Vmware. Realize whats possible. Hold on one second. Sure. Okay. Okay safe drivers save 40 guys guys check it out. Safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 thats safe drivers save 40 . It is, thats safe drivers save 40 . Hes right there. Its him hes here. Hes right here. Hi hi. Hey thats totally him. Its him thats totally the guy. Safe drivers do save 40 . Click or call for a quote today. None of which have been followed through on by this president. It begs the question, if they didnt think this was let me state it another way. If they thought this intel was so damning, they needed to conduct inner Agency Meetings to figure out how to respond to the threat, doesnt that suggest right there that, first of all, it was important enough to take to the president of the United States, which, of course, your reporting says they did. Secondly, that donald trump is once again undercutting his own intel agencies like he did at helsinki. First of all, saying socalled, everyone is denying this, the russians have denied this, carrying echoes of the helsinki summit where President Trump emerged with Vladimir Putin saying they had strong denials of meddling in the 2016 american election, and says i dont know why it would be them. I think building to that, the leak yesterday, you know, 48 hours into this thing, the administration put out a new claim, this was never briefed to the president because there was disagreement, there was not a consensus within the Intelligence Community it was real and a Senior Administration official on team trump that is putting that out yesterday and will continue to explore that and dig into it, but our information is con temporary tr. Were hearing there was not pushback among the Intelligence Community. There were different aspects, different types of interrogat n interrogation, and different agencies because of their expertise place Different Levels of confidence into different types of intelligence streams. There were disagreements on a confidence level on different aspects of this complicated thing. Thats very different than saying people didnt agree whether there was any there will, which is the latest message from the white house. New York Times Washington correspondent, Charlie Savage. Well get reporting from capitol hill, including one republican who is calling the white house on the carpet. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. A new moment in wireless has begun. Tmobile and sprint are joining forces. By bringing together our two networks, tmobile will build americas largest and most reliable 5g network. With more towers, more engineers, and more coverage. Youll get the best 5g network, and the best prices. Welcome to tmobile. Americas largest 5g network. The sleep number its 360 smart bed. Owest prices of the season on can it help keep me asleep . Absolutely, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. And now, the queen sleep number 360 c4 smart bed is only 1,299, save 400. Only for a limited time. They get that no two people are alike and customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. What do you think . I dont see it. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Cmon pizzas here. Whoa is that shaq . This is my new pizza the shaqaroni and its bigger than pizza because for every shaqaroni sold, 1 is donated to the Papa Johns Foundation for building community. Welcome back to morning joe. Weve been talking about u. S. Intelligence that shows russians had tried to bribe taliban fighters to kill u. S. Troops in afghanistan. Liz cheney has some pretty good questions about this and she was tweeting over the weekend. Shes one republican who wants to know, why werent the president or Vice President briefed . They were. Was it in the president ial Daily Briefing . Yep. Who knew and when . Whats been done to protect our forces and hold putin accountable . Whats to say the republicans at this point, are they so morally worn down by this president that they will not have the right answer for the United States of america . Mika, we obviously have to put that question to republicans. I think that third piece of what liz cheney underscores there, what is being done is a question every lawmaker has a duty to answer now that they are aware through the public reporting that this was going on. I mean, were still trying to figure out who, if anyone, in congress knew why, if they would have talked to them or not. The ap says that briefing wont happen until today. Were still trying to nail down all those details. I mean, the reality of this story, it just underscores there really is no good answer for the president if he didnt know because his intelligence officials were afraid to bring it up to him and underscore it because they werent sure if he would approve one of the options they had on the table. The times did report there were various potential options discussed. Thats a theme thats come up in this presidency that he hasnt been willing to take actions presented to him by his intelligence or hes doubted the intelligence underneath it. Perhaps thats part of what happened here. There is no good explanation. Any one much these rabbit holes you go down has an enormous set of problems and land mines for this president. I think you have liz cheney who has shown a willingness throughout this administration to push back against the president on matters of National Security, and trust me, liberal democrats dont agree with liz cheney or many other members with her family. Thats kind of understating the issue on this stuff. But there are a lot of republicans who have been in that camp historically. I do think this is something that is going to put an incredible amount of pressure on them. It is one more thing, as there are so many other issues they have to grapple with with this president and his poll numbers are falling, the trend lines are terrible for him. To have this sort of very clear cut moral issue that talks about the men and women that are still on the ground in afghanistan fighting for us every day, the president has known about it for months and he does nothing to protect them. Trying to answer those questions and defend this president is a very difficult position to be in. If thats going to happen, i think those contortions will be pretty obvious. Think about it if youre a parent that have a son or daughter in afghanistan and the commander in chief has known for months that Vladimir Putin and the russians have put a bounty on their head, to have them killed by islamic militants and the president of the United States does absolutely nothing about it . And its considered so serious that the National Security council convenes in march to consider sanctions or at least a diplomatic scolding. And trying to figure out what actions to take. And three months later, no actions have yet to be taken . Think about being the father or mother of a child in afghanistan or the husband and wife of a spouse whos in afghanistan. And this is considered so serious that the cia station chief warned about it in afghanistan, that it was, quote, well known in afghanistan that Vladimir Putin had put bounties on Young Americans heads for islamic militants to kill them and the president s doing nothing. This is considered so serious by our intelligence agencies that they convene a meeting at the end of march and we notify, our government notifies the British Government that there are also bounties on the heads of british soldiers from Vladimir Putin. And yet, this morning, the white house wants you to believe that despite the fact that cia knew it, despite the fact that the president s own National Security council knew it, despite the fact that it was so serious that they convened a meeting in march to consider a range of options to take against the russian government and Vladimir Putin for putting bounties on the heads of Young American troops, despite the fact it was considered so serio serious, they notified the british. Think about this. Youre being told that they notified the British Government, but they didnt even tell the president of the United States. I just ask, how stupid do they think you are . And how low does the president think he can take you and his supporters in supporting a president who was told in a president ial Daily Briefing months ago that the man he called a friend of his in may was putting bounties on the heads of u. S. Troops back in 2019. Is it is it just mindblowing, mindblowing. Heres the thing, its all going to come out. The truth is all going to come out. There are going to be people testifying before congress, under oath. Theyve got the president ial daily briefs. They have the intel. Its all going to come out. So, republican senators, pick sides. There are only two sides to pick here, by the way. There are only two sides. This isnt about being a republican or democrat, a trump supporter, you can pick the side of the u. S. Troops or you can pick the sides of Vladimir Putin. There is no gray zone here. You cant stick your head under the covers and pretend donald trump is just going to go away. Yes, he is. Hes going to get voted out. You think he is so you think no, you cant hold on for six months. Speak out for our troops today. Yeah, this stain will stay. Speak out for our troops today. Coming up, President Trump retweets a racist video showing a supporter yelling, white power. Reverend dow reports to that next on morning joe. Dow repot next on morning joe. Some Companies Still have hr stuck between employees and their data. Entering data. Changing data. More and more sensitive, personal data. And it doesnt just drag hr down. It drags the entire business down with inefficiency, errors and waste. Its ridiculous. So ridiculous. With paycom, employees enter and manage their own data in a single, easy to use software. Visit paycom. Com, and schedule your demo today. Come in and explore the new ways you can stay connected. Were putting Healthy Practices in place to keep you safe by social distancing, making sure everything is professionally cleaned, and requiring everyone to wear a face covering. Come visit a store today. Stop in or book an appointment online at a time that works for you. Were here to make life simple, easy, awesome. Ask, shop, discover at your local xfinity store today. We want to now get to this, which also would have been our lead this morning. President trumps retweet of a video. Over the weekend showing a man in a golf cart with the Trump Campaign gear, wearing it, shouting the words, white power. According to the tweet, the video was from a Florida Retirement Community known as the villages and featured residents protesting against each other. The man who is heard shouting white power was responding to protesters yelling, racist. The tweet was removed from his feed hours later. Trump is, quote, a big fan of the villages but did not hear the one statement made on the video. The president retweeted a tweet which included the firefauci, trump was asked if he noticed the hashtag in question. Hes a wonderful guy. Why did you retwee retweet firefauci. I retweeted somebody, they said fire, doesnt matter. Did you notice that when you retweeted that . Yeah, i notice everything. He notices everything. Reverend al, first of all, in this video, it opens very quickly, its very loud, the words are very clear and the words white power, yeah, white power, eight seconds in. I guess i could believe that the president wouldnt have the Attention Span to get to the end of the video, but this is eight seconds in and its clear as day. Your response. It was eight seconds in, you couldnt miss it if you tried. But the overriding factor here is the whole point of the exchange was one side calling the other racist and the other side saying, white power. So, if he did not get the depth of the exchange, what did he retweet it for . You dont retweet things unless youre trying to project some reason to retweet it. It is obvious on his face that he heard it and that he intended to send a signal to his socalled base or his assumed base. What is so troubling here is in the midst of this movement around social just, around systemic racism where the president has had political laryngitis and even addressing the issue of systemic racism, even addressing what happened with george floyd, he would choose to retreat white power while whites and blacks are marches all over this country to come to terms with it. He would retweet white power video on the date the state of mississippi is voting to remove the confederate emblem from their state flag. He would choose on that day to somehow try and feed into the american consciousness through his base supporters that its all right to yell white power, so i think the timing of this and the fact that hes the president of the United States of america is whats so alarming. We expect this from any normal bigot, but for the head of state to do this on a day and in a time like this is absolutely ridiculous. Joe, it just shows the white house response to this, the president s response to this, so obviously a boldface lie. It just shows at this point when we have this incredible reporting from the New York Times, from Charlie Savage about the russian bounties just how easily it is for this white house and this president to lie and take no responsibility. Well, theyre going to peel back the onion as it pertains to Vladimir Putins bounties on the heads of american troops. Thats going to come out. Something like this, though, rev, again, eight seconds in, this long video. Its the first thing you see on this video, a guy shouting white power. Thats what its all about. In his trump gear. Its interesting, donald trump only took this down after getting criticized by republican senator tim scott. He never even addressed the criticism until tim scott went on national television. The only black republican in the u. S. Senate and even tim scott could not defend this. He said it was offensive and it should be taken down. And then three hours later the president takes it down. Again, with all that is going on that the president has not addressed, including boycotting facebook for boycotting posting of hate stuff, the president would retweet this in the face of the memphis and the quote and facebook in the wake of the george floyd reaction, because his retweeting of this is intentional. Of course it is. Its a shot back for all of us fighting for another way in this country. Its intentional. Its his saying this is what i think of your movement, this is what i think youre trying to do in america and we get the message and were going to send him a message back. Coming up, two Public Servants looking to make history this november. Well talk to a pair of couldbe congressmen straight ahead on morning joe. Ning joe. You cant predict the future. But a resilient business can be ready for it. A Digital Foundation from vmware helps you redefine whats possible. Now. From the hospital shifting to remote patient care in just 48 hours. To the university moving hundreds of apps quickly to the cloud. Or the City Government Going Digital to keep Critical Services running. You are creating the future on the fly. And we are helping you do it. Vmware. Realize whats possible. Yeah. This moving thing never gets any easier. Well, xfinity makes moving super easy. I can transfer my internet and tv service in about a minute. Wow, that is easy. Almost as easy as having those guys help you move. We are those guys. Thats you . The truck adds 10 pounds. In the arms. Okay. Transfer your Service Online in a few easy steps. Now thats simple, easy, awesome. Transfer your service in minutes, making moving with xfinity a breeze. Visit xfinity. Com moving today. Welcome back. Eddie glaude is a mississippi native who teaches at princeton university. We have a story about mississippi and a story about princeton for you now. Mississippi lawmakers passed a bill to remove the confederate emblem from their flag, a symbol that has flown for 126 years. The bill passed in the Mississippi House in a 9123 vote and then the state senate, 3714. It will now go to republican governors tate reeves, who has said he will sign it into law. Eddie, before we get to princeton, lets talk about your own state of mississippi and a place that i grew up in for part of my life. I dont know that theres a more dramatic example of how much 2020 has changed things than what we saw this weekend in mississippi. Talk about it. What does it mean and what does it mean to you personally . Well, its historic. I grew up seeing the flag, seeing this homage to the confederacy. Yesterday was historic, to my mind. You think about the Confederate Flag entered and became a part of mississippis flag in 1894 as mississippi was leading the way in passing jim crow laws. And we know that it has been in interesting sorts of way a metaphor for the brutality, the cruelty of White Supremacy in the country. So were at this moment now that even the state of mississippi has decided to turn its back on that particular hateful symbol. This is an important moment. I think its also important for us to understand it was a combination of forces. Not only activists from the ground, who have been clamoring for the state to remove that symbol, but its also big business. You think about the s. E. C. Telling mississippi, we will not hold championship events. Were thinking of not holding championship events in mississippi is it you continue to do this. I think this is a wonderful first step, wonderful symbolic gesture. Now mississippi has to begin addressing some of the more systemic issues that haunt this state. Lets talk about the mississippi we grew up in. Im older than you, but, again, it seems the longer things go, im older than everybody. I was there started first grade in 1969 and it was the first year mississippi integrated schools. I always told people it changed my life. That was to me, that was normal, being in integrated schools because thats all i ever knew. But i grew up, you know, being an Archie Manning fan, being an ole miss rebel fan, having posters up that had old reb on there. Ive always talked about the Confederate Flag. Heck, 80s, 90s, mainly the 80s, we didnt think anything of it. Pensacola, city of five flags. British flag, french flag, spanish flag, Confederate Flags. You look up, yeah, thats a part of our history. It is something how even in the past 25 years, things have changed so dramatically in the way a lot of us white southerners have looked at those symbols where we didnt understand the way we should have understood just how hurtful it was. So, you and i grew up in the same mississippi, but we looked at everything differently growing up because of our backgrounds. Right. We always talk about the proverbial Railroad Tracks that separated town. On my side of town we were not, shall we say, excited for ole reb, ole miss miss. We looked to jackson state or delta state or mississippi state, those sorts of schools because ole miss represented the sort of citadel of mississippi, of this closed society it was once called. I think were actually in a moment. Think about all the activism around samesex marriage and, boom, it suddenly happened and it became a part of the kind of culture. It seems to me that were at that moment where the kind of sentiment around the confederate monuments memorializing that type of moment the sentiment has has congealed that this stuff is bad and we need to put it aside. Im delighted my state, the state i love so dearly, has made this move. It still has a long way to go but i am delighted its made this move. Jon meacham, you grew up in the south, younger than me but everybody is. You grew up in the south. We grew up, you know, listening hearing bands play dix dixie, listening to other songs, having symbols, looking at confederate statues. Even you know, you go back if you want to really see a big change, go back and look at ken burns, the civil war, where you had a lot of historians saying, hey, the south wasnt fought the civil war wasnt fought over slavery. So much has changed before our very eyes over the past 25, 30 years. I think one of the lessons of this, and it applies to this moment and every subsequent moment, is in real time the lesson of this is, why not be on the side of liberation as opposed to captivity . Why not be on the side of expanding the jeffersonian definitions of equality. Why cling to a drama and a myth that may, in some way, give some infuse your life with a kind of meaning, but at some level the still small voice of conscience suggest it was not about the best part of america. And the moral utility of history, it seems, is not to be selfrighteous about the past, or arent we more enlightened. But the only data set we have in politics, really, is history. And so what is what does history tell us . It tells us you would rather be on the side of seneca falls and selma and stonewall than you would on a kind of lost cause, you know, highbrow dukes of hazard sensibility. Were going to get to the princeton move in a moment. Right now it seems appropriate to dive into eddies extremely timely new book entitled, begin again, officially out tomorrow. Eddie, that you can to us about the book, if you could. Why James Baldwin, the inspiration for it, and why now . Well, thank you, mika. Ive been reading and thinking about James Baldwin for almost 30 years now. Baldwin has haunted my thoughts, how to think about america. I think hes one of the most insightful critics of american democracy from the Vantage Point from black experience. Theres also this delicate balance in his work between rage and love. Theres a kind of righteouses indignation that seeps from every sentence. And then theres this kind of this love that emerges in the way in which hes willing to be vulnerable. He has this wonderful revelation in order to Say Something significant about the country, to criticize the country, we have to examine the messiness of our own lives. Also i think for this moment, it is his balance between despair and faith. Baldwin lived to see dr. King assassinated. He lived to see the country turn its back on the civil rights movement. He understood what reagans election meant for all the sacrifices that he engaged in, but yet he still held the faith that america could be better, that we could, in fact, be a new jerusalem. I wanted to figure out how he held those two in balance because my despair, at times, seems to overwhelm. Thats why i wrote the book. Ill tell you, thank you for getting me a copy of it several months ago. Its an extraordinarily moving book. And a really important book for most americans, all americans to read, especially right now. My goodness, its become timely. Heres a passage from the book about your visit to the remains of baldwins home. The ruins were a fitting description for what baldwin saw in the latter part of his life in the United States. He saw decay and wreckage alongside greed and selfishness. He saw and felt deeply the effects of americas betrayal of the black freedom struggle of the mid20th century. The country had refused, once again, to turn its back on racism and to reach for its better angels and our children were paying the cost. As i looked out onto the ruins and thought of the election of donald trump and the ugliness that consumed my country, i asked myself, what do you do when you have lost faith in the place that you call home . That wasnt quite the way to put it. I never had faith in the United States in the strongest sense of the word. I hoped that one day white people here would finally leave behind the belief that they mattered more. What do you do when this glimmer of hope fades and youre left with the belief that white people will never change, the country, no matter what we do, will remain basically the same . Amid the rubble of the construction site and the signs promising luxurious living, i thought of baldwin as an answer to my questions and part of the reason why i needed to write this book. He grappled with profound disillusionment after the murder of dr. King and yet held onto his faith in the possibility of a moment when we could all be fully ourselves, what he referred to as a new jerusalem. I had to understand how he did that and what resources, as he confronted his dark america, he might offer me as i confront the darkness of my own. Jon meacham, your thoughts on eddie and those pow. Erful words. Well, its an amazing book and important and urgent. And what i would ask my friend is, what are those resources . What have you taken from baldwin as we address america in a moment of tumult and 127 days or so away from an election, but an election and a system so many people believe is fundamentally corrupt . Right. Let me just say this to my friend jon meacham. You saw that reference to better angels. That means the soul of america was on my mind as i was writing the book. But i think what i learned, jon, are a couple of things. One is that you have to bear witness. For what baldwin meant by bearing witness, we had to tell the truth about the suffering in the country. We had to break through the illusions. We had to in some ways insist, we have to insist on a kind of uncomfortable position with regards to our selfunderstanding to our self understanding so we can imagine ourselves otherwise. Thats the first thing. The second thing i realized, this moving close to 7,000 words. Just its amazing no 7,000 articles, pieces of writing, right, is that we have to have faith that wherever human beings are, we have a chance. No matter how dark it is. No matter how bleak it may seem. If we are present in the fullness of who we are, we have a chance. Theres no guarantee but we just have to step up. And for me, that was this amazing insight, this abiding faith in the capacity of human beings to be better, even though we reveal ourselves over and over again to be disastrous. Thats what i found. Lets talk, eddie, about princeton, and its very interesting. I have supported the princeton president s position all along. Weve talked about it an awful lot. Exactly. In 2015, i supported it much more strongly than i did after, lets say, charlottesville. But i thought it was interesting. I kept revisiting wilson and princeton in my mind over the past month and then when i saw this oped by the president of princeton, i said, my god, thats going around. All of these because you and i have talked about this a lot. How do you balance the good that he did, the progressiveness that he did with the fact that he resegregated the federal government. And in 2020, and after charlottesville and after everything else, and for george floyd, that balancing act becomes far more difficult and you have to balance on the side, obviously, in this case, of removing wilsons names from institutions in princeton. Talk about that process over the past five years. And once again how 2020 has changed the way we look at everything. Joe, between the mississippi flag changing and princeton removing wilsons name, i think hell is freezing over. But were in this moment thats really, really fascinating. What i loved about what was said in the Washington Post is that he realized he acknowledged how important wilson is and has been to princeton since conception. That princeton is a modern university because of his leadership. He also recognized the way in which the university has told a story about wilson, redacted so much of who he was and what he had done. Particularly the cruelty and insidious views he held around race. And so what he said was the country has engaged in a longstanding practice of disregard when it comes to the reality of racism and its impact on the lives of black folk and in some ways on the soul of the country. And the move he then made which is really important, in this moment, we cannot duplicate that disregard. What are we trying to commend to our students . Woodrow wilson still remains an important part of who we are, but it is, i think, a moral and ethical decision to change the name. And this is going to be a difficult conversation every time we have it. It doesnt mean we have to take down the Washington Monument or rid ourselves of jefferson and the like but it requires of us to tell the truth, right, about the complexity of these figures so that we can imagine ourselves without the safety of our myths and our legends, as john mentioned earlier. And jon, it is interesting the decision that princeton made regarding wilson. But you have others. And donald trump is now suggesting, of course, using this as a call to war that the statues of washington and jefferson and madison and others might be torn down and jesus, hes the only one left defending it. It is important to remember that this republic would not exist but for george washington. That Martin Luther king used as a righteous hammer the words of Thomas Jefferson that he drafted in his letter from birmingham jail. He used it against segregationists to positive effect and James Madison created a constitution that still, along with hamilton, that still holds tyrants in check in this country. And so it is a balancing act, is it not . And we have to be sure that we strike the right balance at all times. Absolutely. And the history, the legislative history if you will, of each of these monuments and memorials is essential. You and eddie were talking about the mississippi flag. The fact is went up in 1894 when the black codes and jim crow was coming into being tells you all you need to know. The Lincoln Memorial was seen as a kind of the republican monument. Fdr pressed for the completion of the Jefferson Memorial in 1943. And it was in fdrs mind, at that point, this is what we are fighting for abroad. Were fighting for the ideals of religious liberty, individual liberty. Not to say that everything should not be considered here. But i think one of the most american places in the world right now is the tidal basin because you have Martin Luther king staring in perpetuity at Thomas Jefferson. And whenever im there, i always think that its king waiting and urging jefferson to be applied to everyone. And so i tend to be more additive and contextualist if you will. Since we have a princeton guy we can use the word contextualist. I think that lets explore the mechanics of memory. Lets understand, as well, that sometimes to commemorate is not to celebrate. Thats important it seems to me. And when you drive through washington, the monuments you see, by and large, are monuments to those who, however flawed, however sinful, however limited their views were, they were people who were trying to push us toward that more perfect union. And what i would argue is that the next great phase in american memory, in the mechanics of memory, should be finding ways to commemorate those who didnt just bend the arc of a moral universe but who insisted that it swerve. Edie, weve been talking for some time about this issue and writing about it, having a special show to talk about it. And i look ford doing that. But just your final thoughts on what jon said, king looking at jefferson at the tidal basin. King using the words of jefferson against segregationists in his letter from the birmingham jail. Madison. How do we strike these balances and uphold the ideas of these very flawed men but understand that we move forward as a country because of many of these lofty ideas and beliefs. Joe, thats such a wonderful question in so many ways. Let me just say this really quickly. It seems to me that we need to tell our story in such a way where its not about white americans extending the power of its tradition to black folk, including us. Its not about charity. Its not about a philanthropic enterprise but to tell the story of the country in such a way that jefferson and king are inextricably linked. That theyre part of the very fabric of the country. Not so much about, we were once this and then king forced us to that. No, no, no. But the very way, the actual content, the substance of who we are bound up in the ugliness of slavery. Bound up in the principles of american democracy, bound up in our constitution as flawed as it is and as it was, right, that this story is, we are constituents of it. We are critical part in it. And we need to tell that story in such a way that we dont that black folk dont feel as late comers if that makes sense. But the book gets at all of this, and we can talk about it over the course of the days. And we absolutely will. Jon meacham and eddie glaude, thank you. Well see you again tomorrow for more on your timely new book begin again. James baldwins america and its urgent lessons for our own. Thanks so much. Before we finish today, at 1 30 p. M. At know your values instagram, Yasmin Vossoughian is joined for a discussion on black Women Leaders then and now. Head to underscore know your value on instagram at 1 30 p. M. Today. That does it for us this morning. Stephanie ruhle picks up the conversation right now. Thanks, mika. Hi there. Im stephanie ruhle. Its monday, june 29th. Here are the facts at this hour. The number move to coronavirus cases is rising. In two dozen states across our nation. More than 41,000 cases were reported on sunday. The total jumping to more than 2. 5 Million People over the weekend. Overall, more than 126,000 americans have lost their lives. But t