Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20190122

Until november 2016. Now giuliani is trying to walk back his comments. In a written statement yesterday, quote, my recent statements this is the president s attorney. My recent statements about discussions during the 2016 campaign between Michael Cohen and donald trump about a potential trump tower in moscow were hypothetical. The discussion was in the earliest stage. Giuliani quoted what President Trump alleged lip saly said to t the trump tower discussions were going on from the day i announced until the day i won. The new yorker magazine asked giuliani about what he said and giuliani said, i did not say that. Its hard to follow, willie. The New York Times is reporting frustration with giuliani within trumps inner circle. They express concerns that hes increasing prosecutors anger with the president. In an interview last night with fox news, the president s son donald trump jr. Denied that he and the Trump Campaign knew anything about the project. When was the last discussion about this trump to you are deal . Because rudy got everybody really confused i have to say. He goes on meet the press and said it could have been right through the election. Then he said he was talking in hypothetical terms today. I dont talk about things that i dont know about. Unfortunately that sometimes happens, no different than anyone else. The reality is this want a deal. We dont know the developer, we dont know the site, we dont know the anything about it. Ultimately it was Michael Cohen essentially trying to get a deal done. He wasnt exactly a deal guy, didnt bring too many to the table so i dont think anyone took it all that seriously. Thats the reality of what went on. In 2017, jtrump jr. Testifie he knew very little about the project except his father signed a letter of intent in 2015. And in an interview of the new yorker, giuliani was asked, do you ever worry that will be your legacy . He responded, absolutely, im afraid that will be on my grave stone, Rudy Giuliani, he lied for trump. Somehow i dont think that will be it. I think i can explain it to st. Peter. I dont think as a lawyer ive been untruthful. As a lawyer i have a sense of ethics higher than anyone can imagine. Im doing what i believe in. I may not be right. Susan del percio, didnt you work with and does this look like the same person . This is not the americas mayor i knew. He obviously doesnt care about his legacy. Hes out there supporting the president blindly and obviously without all the information. I wish when you could see when he would give his budget reports, he would give this many completely unscripted, have every fact down and give an hourlong speech without missing a beat. And this is a different Rudy Giuliani. Hes more concerned about staying relevant in the news media than he is about his legacy. Let take his premise here as he respopnds to all this controversy. He said he was speaking as a hypothetical and if hes going on tv and freelancing, whats the point in interviewing him . Thats the question. Why would you pay the slyest sl attention to what he says. Hes one of the people to pick up the phone to called donald trump or donald trump picks up the phone and calls Rudy Giuliani. You would think this was based on some nugget of information. His defense is im just making stuff up. If hes just making stuff up, we cant pay any attention to him. This is really crazy because hes not doing his client any good. One understands why people in the white house and other people on the legal team would be enormously frustrated at this. Its one thing to sow confusion as a diversionary tactic, but this has gone beyond that to Something Else thats not good for the president. So, mike barnicle, i think it would be a sad exercise to figure out whats going on with him. What about the story . What about pulling back big picture . Do his errors and misstatements and lies matter in the long term . We dont know, mika. We dont know if theyre lies, if theyre just mistaken statements that he makes. Its so hard to follow him. The new Yorker Interview you referenced, its another example. Hes talking about the buzzfeed story. From the moment i read the story, i knew it was false. Rudy then says because i have been through all the tapes, i have been through all the texts and all the emails. The interviewer says what tapes have you gone through . I shouldnt have said tapes giuliani said. The level of incompetence he brings to this, whether its planned or unplanned, on he knows. I have never seen this before in a representative of the president of the United States, but we are continually getting into unchartered waters seemingly by the hour. To be clear on one thing, rudy does talk to trump all the time. So when he comes out there and he goes on meet the press and then calls the New York Times and says he definitely was involved in this moscow deal from beginning to end on the campaign, it hard for me to believe he was just freelancing and that he misspoke. 24 hours later he comes back and says, ah, thats not true. Why . Because his admission would be one of the biggest bombshells weve had since the beginning of this russia investigation. He was essentially on the record admitting a candidate of the United States was working on a multibalanced business deal with putin in russia while russia was trying to tip the election in his favor. That fact set is did have stating for trump. It goes to the heart of what mueller is looking at. I find it hard to believe he just happened to say that. He know what is is in those written answers from trump to the special prosecutor. He know as lot more than we do about what mueller knows. In the flurry of all the things of is this a big deal, is that a big deal, this is a big deal. It goes to what would russia have that they could dangle over the head of the president when he was president or a candidate. They know what was going on in the moscow deal. If trump was involved and it was more extensive than we were led to believe, thats a big deal. Thats why you cant ever discount the existence of tapes, as he just popped out. Well, it was nice of him to volunteer it to figure out exactly whats going on. Willie, this just feels like everyones pingponging with the truth, just trying to get by. By the way, how many days has it been not just since the shutdown began but since weve had a White House Press briefing where we can ask questions. Since middecember, longest stretch of this presidency. I think this is not a slip of the tongue. The president to he told abc it would have covered all the way up to december of 2016. Im not so sure donald trump actually does mind this. He loves Rudy Giuliani personally and he likes any smoke screen thats thrown up, whether its based in fact or not that confuses the public. And to go with what jim was saying, they do speak all the time. And thats now also added to this white house intrigue. Yes, people are frustrated with Rudy Giuliani in the white house, but heres the other thing, Rudy Giulianis very frustrated where he is right now with the folks in the white house as as well. This is a back and forth that rudy didnt think hed found himself in the middle of. He definitely is acting with the president s consent on what hes doing going forward. Were leading off with the story and i know were going to be talking about the shutdown, but thats exactly what the president doesnt want us talking about. Well, it is day 32 of the shutdown and there is still no resolution in sight as Congress Prepares to pursue two duelling bills to reopen the government this week. As of midday yesterday, speaker of the house nancy pelosi had not spoken to the president or anyone from the white house about trumps latest proposal that would give temporary protections to Daca Recipients. Instead the house is expected to pass a series of spending bills that would reopen parts of the government that have nothing to do with the wall while the senate takes up the proposal by President Trump. Republican senator todd young, the chairman of the senate gop campaign arm for 2020 told the post, quote, im not contemplating anything, but the president hasnt indicated he will sign. Also, renewed concerns over the strength of the Global Economy. Those concerns were exacerbated yesterday when china posted its economy grew 6. 6 in 2018. That would be a good figure for most countries but smarcks the sl marks the slowest for china since 1990. And u. S. Consumers, who have remained strong for months appear to be shaken by increasing warning signs about the economy. The latest Consumer Confidence reading fell to the lowest level of Donald Trumps presidency. Meanwhile, ahead of the annual World Economic forum in davos, the International Monetary fund downgraded its expectation for the Global Economy warning concerns for a global slowdown have increased. So here we are, jim, we have all these pressures around the world and were into our second month now of the Government Shutdown right now with the prospect of federal workers losing a second check coming up at the end of the week. But, man, it doesnt look to me like theres any movement or even any talk in congress, any negotiation over President Trumps latest proposal. In 25 years of watching this stuff, ive never seen an impasse like this where both sides feel so selfcertain and then can point to data showing that their party wants them to continue the stance that they have. So theres not an obvious middle ground. Think republicans, if anything, feel more dug in today than they did four days ago because they think the president s speech allows them to go out and say were trying to propose a compromise that takes care of immigration in a more come h e comprehensive way. John swan pointed out over the weekend, theres not a single democrat thats come out and said i like the trump compromise. The president has said privately this could go on a year. I dont think it could go on a year but at this point who the hell knows because theres no sign of a middle ground. Its striking that this shutdown, the longest in history, is surrounded by rhetoric on both sides, as jim just pointed out, democrats feeling confident in their position, republicans feeling increasingly confident because of the president s televised appearance saturday afternoon, yet overhanging this is a level of almost indifference among elected officials that even someone as jaded as i am finds absolutely shocking, shocking. Yeah, its amazing. Theres this fight going on and as you and jim vandehei pointed out, republicans and democrats for their own good reasons are more dug in than ever apparently, yet theres a shutdown going on. Theres real impact on real people. Some of them are my neighbors here in the Washington Area, but not just in washington but in places look alaska where theres a large percentage of federal workers and montana and places like that. Across the country this is having an impact. Its not just federal workers, it contractors as well, people who work on contracts or work for firms who work on contracts with the federal government who are having the economic impact. I dont see how this gets resolve until the broader public feels more of a direct impact and that can happen, for example, in air travel. There are a lot of tsa agents who are simply not going to be able to continue to work without pay for that much longer. Theyre just not going to be able to. They dont make that much money. They have to put food on the table. And in an economy that is basically at full employment, theyre going to have to go out and look for other jobs. The air Traffic Controllers, they make more money but they direct the pilots in the sky. There can be lots of disruption in Something Like air travel that could concentrate the minds of or elected representatives. Willie, that might be the key to ending this this evening. Once the elected representatives try to get back to washington and that are told while standing online that the air Traffic Controllers didnt show up to work. You going to get on the plane . Think about what were saying here, that its going to take that to break. Look, the president is not going to sign it. Why even negotiate this . Anything that doesnt have the border wall or the 5. 7 billion so were not going to talk about it. On the other hand democrats are say being we cant set this precedent that when the president promised something to his cheering crowds during his campaign, were going to shut down the government. I think donald trump has thrown it there, as the coverage becomes worse and worse, lets not forget this is the cable tv president. He wants to see stories about himself in a positive way. These stories are devastating. People cannot afford to go to work because they cant afford child care or gas in their car. These stories are going to keep coming out like that poor woman who cant afford her therapy for cancer. While donald trump may not have empathy and doesnt care about the people he represents, hopefully Mitch Mcconnell can dig deep and remember this is about public service. The only Pressure Point is he starts worrying about republicans up for election in 2020 and starts worrying about defending them and moves the deal forward. He r he risks Donald Trumps ear but its worth it. Well, senator Kamala Harris will make the first stop in South Carolina on friday. Shes said to speak at a fundraiser at her Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. She then heads to the first in the nation voting state iowa. Just hours after announcing her candidacy yesterday, the senator held a News Conference at her alma mater, Howard University, where nbcs Andrea Mitchell asked her this question. Reporter senator, joe biden has said that the test should be who is best able to defeat donald trump. Thats the test. Why are you the best capable, the strongest democrat to defeat donald trump . Well, andrea, lets start with this. I love my country, i love my country, and i feel a sense of responsibility to stand up and fight for the best of who we are. And im prepared to fight and i know how to fight. And in particular when were talking about fighting for the values that we hold sacred and dear, when it comes to talking about how we fight for the American People and have leadership in this country that is focused on the needs of the people instead of selfinterest, im prepared to fight that way. And i believe it will be a winning fight. Reporter but 17 or more other democrats say it that they love their country. Why you better than they . I think the voters will decide ultimately. The senator encouraged other democrats who want to run to, quote, jump in. She said her path to victory will be through all 50 states. John kennedy once said when you see daylight, run to it. That is exactly what women across america and the world have been doing since donald trump got elected, running. From womens marches to School Board Campaigns to congressional campaigns, the political skies seem to have opened up for women in ways unseen in our life times. If is donald trump himself whose excesses, racism and misogyny led to this landmark moment in u. S. Political history. With the latest entry in the 2020 democrat being sweepstakes by Kamala Harris, the early pace for president is being set by women. Her fellow senators, Kirsten Gillibrand and Elizabeth Warren and others such as Amy Klobuchar are considering their own run at smashing the glass ceiling. One reason is surely hillary clinton. She took up a lot of space in the Democratic Party and her loss in 2016 created a huge opening for a new group of women to step up. Its also the Natural Evolution morphing into a revolution, as women have spent decades rising in numbers and influence at the top levels of the party. Now it is their time. Whether a woman ultimately becomes the democratic nominee or not, and i suspect one will, these women, senators, harris, warren, jigillibrand will likel set the agenda, repudiate donald trum trump, change the direction of the country and so the world that women know their value. Im looking forward to it. Still ahead on morning joe, new details emerge into a tense phone call between President Trump and paul ryan back in 2017. Like so many of the president s targets before him, trump reportedly compared the House Speaker to a dying dog. That disturbing chapter and what it triggered and also why paul ryan did not step up and punch back all just ahead. But first, bill karins with a check on the bitter cold temperatures around the country. Bill . It is freezing once given but t again but the winds are not as strong. New york city is at 1, boston is at 8. As i mentioned, it not that windy. When the sun gets up today, its going to be a pretty quick warmup. Were already warming up in st. Louis and des moines. The next weather storm has already started. We have a blizzard warning in des moines, milwaukee to green bay, Winter Weather advisories and including denver. Heres our next storm just starting to begin, a little light snow around duluth this morning. This storm will today move through areas of the central plains. It will be snowing pretty good from des moines and chicago, only an inch or two. This doesnt bring hardly any rain to the east. So the east coast, you are clear today. We warm up to 34 in d. C. Look at tomorrow, its going to be a rainy 49 and rainy 45 in new york. Behind this is a brutally cold air mass. Get ready for a brutally cold air mass next week. This afternoon light winds, it should be a pretty beautiful winter day. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. Lan to cover the essentials in retirement, as well as all the things you want to do. Because when youre ready for what comes next, the only direction is forward. Were all under one roof now. Congratulations. Thank you. How many kids . My two. His three. Along with two dogs and jake, our new parrot. That is quite the family. Quite a lot of colleges to pay for though. A lot of colleges. You get any Financial Advice . Yeah, but im pretty sure its the same plan they sold me before. Well your situations totally changed now. Right, right. How bout a plan that works for 5 kids, 2 dogs and jake over here . That would be great. That would be great. That okay with you, jake . Get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change from Td Ameritrade investment management. Youll make my morning, buty the price ruin my day. Ou . Complicated relationship with milk . Pour on the lactaid, 100 real milk, just without that annoying lactose. Mmm, thats good. And the army taught me a lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. A new biook by a former trup Administration Staff nem describes the white house as out of control. He describes what happened when then speaker of the house paul ryan criticized President Trumps handling of the white supremacist rally. The book claims trumped watched on television, increasingly angry and called for trump to get ryan on the phone. Paul, do you know why democrats have been kicking your for decades . Because they know a little word called loyalty. Trump told ryan then a wisconsin congressman. Why do you think nancy pelosi has held on this long . Have you seen her . Shes a disaster. Every time she opens her mouth. You were out there dying like a dog, paul, like a dog. What do i do . I saved your blanc. And simms explains to the president that little could be done about a journalist he did not care for when trump asked why the person could not be suspended. Cliff simms will be our guest on morning joe next week. Who is cliff sims and why is he important to the white house . Should we pay close attention to what he says . You should. He was with trump alone for over two years. If trump likes you, it doesnt really matter what your position is. And cliff sims has almost a cinematic eye. Trump asked him specifically to come in through the back door so nobody could see him so he could compile an enemies list of people he suspected internally were leaking negative stuff about trump, and names were written on a piece of paper, sort of whos naughty and who is nice and trump kept it in his pocket so he could keep an eye on people. And hes watched trump watch fox news and watch it like hes a sports commentator. Trump would talk to him about the importance and the beauty of the chyrons that you see at the bottom of morning joe. Most people watch this stuff with the volume off and the chyrons are all that matter. Trump would tell his staff to call the networks and argue about the words they are using because the people at the airport, it might be the only impress they have the trump and the news of the day. It comes out the same day as Chris Christies book. Youve also got Chris Christie that same morning coming on morning joe. Its a huge day for us. It interesting that the president pointed out that the president pointed out that he thought that msnbc had the best chyrons. And the best graphic. He was trashing fox, they have Beautiful People and great coverage but their graphics are terrible. Hes the president. Gene, it occurred to me reading the reaction that he had to paul ryan, calling him you were a dog until i saved your behind or whatever it is he is alleged to have said, that paul ryans apparent lack of reaction to being yelled at and screamed at by then candidate trump and then by President Trump, it really is it speaks for the larger elements of republicans who are so afraid for whatever reason of donald trump that they have now all collectively lapsed into the thought that they have forgotten that history will be written about what they did and how they reacted during these times. It will be and history will not be kind. What theyre afraid of is that donald trump has the affection and loyalty of their base, of their voters, 80, 90 of republicans have stuck with donald trump and those are the people voting in the republican primaries. And its a rational fear that if youre a republican senator or member of congress, in most republican districts a member of congress and if you cross donald trump, you stand a good chance of being primaried by a trumpsupported candidate and losing in the next election nap a rational fear. However, paul ryan, when paul ryan became speaker of the house, as were seeing from nancy pelosi, that a powerful job. The speaker of the house is one of the royals of washington, who really has a lot of say as to what goes on in this city. For him to be as meek and acquiesce ent as he was to trump when he was speaker just has always absolutely floored me. Ive never understood it. Its as if he never understood the job and understood not just the responsibilities but the powers of the job. You know, it hard to believe that he holds the same position that nancy pelosi holds today. Its hard to believe he ran against mitt romney. Susan del percio, weak, meek. What i dont understand is he was speaker of the house. What part of the story are we missing where he said, excuse me, mr. President , im going to make your life miserable, im going to stop everything that you wanted. Where is the punching back that is required in a leadership position like that, especially when confronted with someone who wants to push norms and moral values of our country. Its clear paul ryan had an opportunity to step up and for some reason didnt take it. Is that a Fair Assessment . It is. Thats what happens when you have a leader who is recruited for the job. If you go with the godfather where michael says for his brother, you broke my heart, fredo, you broke my heart. My breaking of the heart is when speaker ryan allowed those memos to be declassified out of the intel committee. He could have put a stop to that and he didnt. From then on was a breaking point for a lot of republicans who said speaker ryan has no desire to do whats right and stand up to the president. My goodness. Well continue the conversation coming up as the Government Shutdown drags on. Hundreds of thousands of americans are bracing to miss a second paycheck this friday. It has eugene writing above all else trump is a bully. Well read from his new column straight head on morning joe. Minimums and fees. They seem to be the very foundation of your typical bank. Capital one is anything but typical. Thats why we designed capital one cafes. You can get savings and checking accounts with no fees or minimums. And one of americas best savings rates. To top it off, you can open one from anywhere in 5 minutes. This isnt a typical bank. This is banking reimagined. Whats in your wallet . You should meet our newest team schwab, bmember, tecky. Do that, im tecky. I can do it all. Go ahead, ask it a question. Tecky, can you offer low costs and awardwinning full service with a satisfaction guarantee, like schwab . Sorry. Tecky cant do that. Schwabbb calling schwab. We dont have a satisfaction guarantee, but we do have tecky im tecky. I ca. Are you getting low costs and awardwinning full service . If not, talk to schwab. So, gene, your latest piece for the Washington Post is entitled above all else trumpb you write imagine going a month without a paycheck, imagine lining up the bills and deciding which get paid and which dont, mortgage or rent, electricity, heating. All of these hardships and many more are being inflicted on hard working Public Servants for no earthly reason. Trump made federal workers and other citizens who depend on Government Services into sack official lambs whose blood is an offering to the trumpist base. Negotiations about a solution are at a standstill because trumps selfproclaimed negotiation prowess comes down to taunts and tweets. Above all else, trump is a bully. Like all schoolyard tyrants, he tries to project great strength to mask internal weakness. But remember the one universal truth about bullies, the bigger they are, the harder they fall. Which is true, gene, but what has worried me every step of the way about this shutdown is that we have learned by watching this presidency and even before that this man literally has no empathy. He has none. And you need that, number one, to be an effective leader. But, number two, to care about ending the shutdown. My question to you is why would gop senators be Standing Firm with them . Im going to assume every single one of them have empathy. I havent met anyone like trump. I havent met any human being who has such a lack like he does. Nor have i, mika. He is absolutely unusual in that sense. Senators do have the gene for empathy. At the moment its that fear and intimidation thats the hold he has over the Republican Party. And also theyre following Mitch Mcconnell, who is making the calculation that thats the stance to take now. Now, when those senators become endangered politically, then Mitch Mcconnell i think with no remorse will switch and eel swe see some movement. But what struck me is when i sat down to write the column, its not just the shutdown, its the family situations at the border. Its all the acts of gratuitous cruelty that seems to be really the through line of this administration, the overarching policy in this administration, which is in the president s image. Its being mean and nasty and punitive to people for no good reason. Just because he does it because he can, with no regard, not an ounce of care for the consequences for the people involved. It is its a personality deflect, but its being inflicted on the country. Its being inflicted on real people who are innocent victims here. And its shocking that we allow this to go on frankly. Its shocking. It is. And for so many reasons you could look at this presidency and how trump a handling this end badly for him. I dont understand how republicans dont see that this end badly. Still ahead, the top democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee will join us and jim clyburn joins us. Morning joe is coming right back. Morning joe is coming right back my experience with usaa has been excellent. They really appreciate the military family and it really shows. With all that usaa offers why go with anybody else . We know their rates are good, we know that theyre always going to take care of us. It was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. It was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say oh we cant beat usaa were the webber family. Were the tenneys were the hayles, and were usaa members for life. Get your usaa Auto Insurance quote today. With expedia, i saved when i added a hotel to our flight. So even when she grows up, shell never outgrow the memory of our adventure. Unlock savings when you add select hotels to your existing trip. Only with expedia. The tsa is sending extra staff to airports across the country due to excessive callouts, which are increasingly being blamed on the Financial Impact of the shutdown. Gabe gutierrez has more on where the staffing shortages are having the biggest impacts. Reporter after lines like these last week, the tsa is now calling for backup. 10 of its employees called off work on sunday, compared to just 3 last year. And andrew says hes still on the job but the Government Shutdown is making it harder to pay his bills. To go into a month like this, its been a gut punch. Reporter the tsa is starting to see staffing issues. And they are calling in National Employment officers who help with shortages during natural disasters. I showed up and only three officers showed up. And on that shift youre supposed to have at maximum 15 officers. And across the country and social media, strong support for the federal workers up. Guys are family to me. These workers, man, this is ridiculous. Reporter still, despite the callouts, the tsa said 93 of passengers waited less than 15 minutes at airport security. Gabe gutierrez reporting there. Jim vandehei, can they say lets open the parts that dont need closing, lets get the tsa paid and get all these people back to work and then talk about immigration. Theyre looking at the same poll that trump does. Republicans support trump on the wall. They feel fine when him playing hard ball, even when it means so much to so many. So the idea that mckonld is going to roll trump,s happening on l whether it here. The legislative process just isnt working on this one. At this point, couldnt you just say thats a concession to your democrats . Lets open that part of the government. I dont want you it the. You, my friend, just said a word mr. Trump is completely unsure of and thats give me a list of those who off of the president s proposals on saturday are going to go back to work and say he just put something on the table, we better try to match it. Right now that number is pretty close to zero. We have heard in the senate, for example, the moderate democrats have not come out with any sort of equivocation about the president s offer. And theres no cracks in that wall in the house a tebd earlier. Im sure some of the more mod cat freshman democrats, maybe theyre feeling it it deep down inside and theyre not saying it out loud. One thing that if he feels any part of his base slipping away if he feels real who cares what anyone thinks. But while male with High School Education in midwestern states, get down to that level, if he feels that those people are abandoning him on this sart then i think he may rethink because again it interest for him. Ju Jeanne Robinson and jim vandehei, thank you beau core and coming up, Rudy Giuliani backtracks on his latest about a trump tower project in moscow, climing a drbt can claiming that it was, quote, hypothetical. Morning joe is coming right back. I hear it in the background and shes watching too, saying [indistinct conversation] [friend] ive never seen that before. I have. clapping every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. the United States Postal Service makes more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and ontime. ringing the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. Senator Kamala Harris announced today she will run for president in 2020. I wish her luck but, i dont know, is america really ready for a president . [ laughter ] [ applause ] im just saying, pump the brakes. Its a good question. You know, 99 of all joking is true, willie. Its a good question. Because you wonder exactly who after trump is going to capture the imagination of the country and be a good leader. It almost seems like with the internet and how fast things move, it can be a real challenge for someone to really get in there and galvanize this country and lead, after watching what has been going on over the past two years. One thing we know for sure from four years ago at this time is we have no idea who that person is going to be, especially in this giant field. We know a lot of names and who the early favorites are but we got a long way to go here. During 2016 donald trump called on russia to hack Hillary Clintons emails. He received an intel briefing that russia was meddling in americas elections and he repeatedly praised Vladimir Putin while attacking just about everybody else. As we learned from his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, all that happened as he was actively discussing a deal to build a tower in moscow while simultaneously denying he had any business there. Welcome back to morning joe, it is tuesday, january 22nd. Joe is out this morning. Along with willie and me, we have mike barnicle, susan del percio. Joining the conversation, National Security expert, columnist at usa today and author of the death of expertise, tom nichols, and nbc news capitol Hill Reporter kasie hunt. Rudy giuliani said my recent statements about discussions during the 2016 campaign between Michael Cohen and thencandidate donald trump about a potential trump moscow project were hypothetical and not based on my conversations with the president. My comments did not represent the actual timing or circumstances of any such discussion. The point is that the proposal was in the early stage and did not advance beyond a free nonbinding letter of intent. In new yorker magazine asked giuliani about what he told the times. Giuliani replied i did not say that. Tom nichols, break in down for me. We could go on and on about Rudy Giuliani and why this is happening, but how is he impacting the president s case to the American People, to the mueller investigators, to congress by having Rudy Giuliani out there day after day negating himself . You know, theres two ways to look at it. One is that hes become like jim carey at the end of liar liar where he has to keep blurting things out to the judge and saying, no, no, you cant believe what i just said, thats just a clever trick and that hes almost compelled to tell the truth and have to walk it back. The other is i think theres actually a strategy here and i think its a strategy youve seen before with other things in the Trump Administration, which is to flood the zone, just pum ma ppump so much information and have so much of it be unreliable, that so many will be incapable of telling the truth from fiction when the Mueller Report comes out. So that people have gotten so used to these kind of bomb shells and walkbacks that they dont know whats true and they dont care. We know that Rudy Giuliani is an unreliable narrator of this russian story. He comes out and says i was speaking hypotheticals, im just riffing out here. He has said what he said on sunday to abc in december, he said it to the the New York Times previously that President Trump was talking about this moscow trump tower plu tthrough end of the campaign in 2016. My question this hour is why would we listen to or interview Rudy Giuliani given if hes not speaking to the president and representing him publicly . Thats what makes this walkback so significant. This is not the first time he has tried to clean up, you know, aisle 7 after he has appeared on multiple sunday shows. But this particular topic is one that is so incredibly fraught and it ties in directly to what giuliani knows or doesnt know about what the president told the special counsel in written questions about some of these topics. And, you know, i think thats what gets into really sensitive areas here. And, you know, at the end of the day were all i think just waiting for the curtain to rise on the mueller drama here in washington, but, you know, its very clear that the drip, drip of information that we are learning about this is going to set up an incredible day of reckoning for republicans in congress. We shouldnt forget that thats really still what its going to come down top. Its going to come down to whether or not republicans in the senate in particular are willing to turn on this president based on the information in that report. You know, kasies absolutely right about that i think. And off of something that top just said, i dont want to upset everybody here, but the vast majority of americans are not listening to what we say. The vast majority of americans are not on twitter 12, 15 hours a day. So what Rudy Giuliani says or doesnt say is less than sky writing. They dont hear it. But what they do hear and anecdotally take in are the volume of charges and countercharges that play on the edges of their news each and every day. So at some point it comes down to, oh, thats old news. No matter what happens, thats old news. Someone knocked that down or built it up, its old news. And it becomes unfortunately kind of insignificant. A lot of americans are like call me when the Mueller Report is out. Everything else is just noise. Its hard to follow and the lies are vexing. Th day 32 of the shutdown, no resolution in sight as Congress Prepares to pursue two duelling bills to reopen the government this week. As of midday yesterday, speaker of the house nancy pelosi had not spoken to the president or anyone from the white house about trumps latest proposal that would give temporary protections to Daca Recipients and immigrants from the temporary protected status list in exchange for a border wall. Instead the house is expected to pass a series of spending bills that would reopen parts of the government that have nothing to do with the wall, while the senate takes up the proposal announced by President Trump. The Washington Post spoke with more than 40 republican senators and aides over the past week, many of whom are standing behind trumps demand for border wall funding, even as their party bears the brunt of the blame for the shutdown standoff. Tom young told the post, quote, im not contemplating anything that the president hasnt indicated he would sign. Kasie hundred dollar, talk to me about this because, again, this ends badly. I mean, any person, no matter what side of the aisle reading the news on this shutdown, on the support for the wall, on the peripheral story of the Mueller Probe around this presidency, why do they continue to stand on the plank . I think at this point, mika, the problem is that they are not ready to collectively say that theyre going to override veto. Theyre not ready to stick the thumb in the president s eye. A lot of this does come down to Mitch Mcconnell. One of the things were trying to figure out is what are the fingerprints he has on this plan that the president unveiled over the weekend. The reality surrounding this deal is no different than the reality we were facing last week precisely because the president has not spoken to nancy pelosi about it, as you outlined. And democrats are going to proceed in the house, theyre going to pass their plan it reopen the government and then talk about Border Security. Republicans in the stat, woor going to have what will. I do think potentially there as a broader deal to be had somewhere, but this is not the way youre going to get there. The tragedy is of course all of those workers who are essentially pawns in this greater game. The underlying reality is americans are blaming the president for the shutdown. They think the whole system is broken, they dont necessarily think highly of congress but you look at the polling numbers and the president is bearing the brunt of this. And a very good reporter at the Washington Post went out to macomb county, michigan, the birth place of reagan democrats, it went for President Trump pretty overwhelmingly and he found a will the of people on the ground who said i may have voted against the status quo but maybe im going to vote against the status quo because i have a lot of friend who are visiting food banks. And democrats are watching the pain just as the rest of us are. Theyre hearing the stories every day of federal workers struggling to pay bills, struggling to pay medication, struggling for child care. On the other hand, their position, nancy pelosi and others, if we give even an inch on this, it will set a t. A. R. P. Precedence that if he can and hold these personal, emotional stories over our heads, a some sort of emotional black mail. Can democrats move on this . I think the problem is the shutdown isnt about the shutdown. Its not about the budget anymore. We have this situation we have a situation where the shutdown begins under unified republican government because the president apparently didnt want to hear bad things from a small segment of the talk radio rightwing blogosphere. I used to work on the hill. You would expect the horse trading begins. I dont see where the democrats have an option here. If they give in, the next time ann coulter or Rush Limbaugh doesnt like something, the president will have learned the lesson you dont like the way things are going, shut down the government and put everyone in pain for a month. I cant imagine thats a good precedent that anyone wants to set. Nobody may want to present that or give that as a precedent, but at some point democrats will start feeling pressure they have to do something. Kasie, im wondering by making an offer to at least open parts of the government, is only so much mcconnell is somehow a deal being reached by Mitch Mcconnell and nancy pelosi. I think there is some reality to that. I think how this why democrats dont want toin tant this, its not even the same fullback. This is strictly temporary. So a permanent wall in exchange for temporary daca status for democrats is a nonstarter. That said, i think its going to become pretty clear pretty quickly this week that even if the senate does move this through successfully, its not going to become law. So then they have to go back to the drawing board. And Mitch Mcconnell has been a very sort of enigmatic figure throughout this drama. He was burned by the president and has been unwilling to publicly clash with him in the wake or come out and say he know what is the president thinks. Everyone is saying we need to press to write down woo and its not just because there are issues on the hill. Democrats and republicans on the the hill agreed about this a long time ago. This is the president who flu tlau wrench in these works and who is an incredibly unreliable negotiator. He says one thing one day, members of Congress Takes a little while to implement what he says, even if its only a couple of hours, thats plenty of time for this president to change his tune. So it seems like were in for another week of kind of going through these motions to see if that resets it enough that we can actually have a legitimate conversation. And tom nichols, for any of those who have a sense of unease about this presidency, i think its worth asking you about is that there is another meeting being planned by talk to us if you could about the implications and also how much is happening right before our ice on the world stage as it pertains to north korea. I mean, i dont think he has the faculti faculties, honestly, to conduct a negotiation with them. That would be effect of. Speaking of bad precedents being set, here we are again. The last time around, we have all this pomp, all this spectacle, we shake hands. One of the worst dictators in the world is a wonderful guy. Then the north reince and then thanks for the press, were going to go back to what we were doing. Heres the problem. Every time you do this, the north korean regime looks more and more like the peer of the United States states. Edo an international they look like, you know, like a state that is in every inch the full measure an american competitor. And thats just a tremendous mistake. But the president i think likes the visuals. I think he likes the look of the whole business of the record carb mets and the flags and and the North Koreans who are very, very good at this ant ride now we are very very good at this, air going to guantanamo bay. Still ahead on morning joe, it is quite a headline in the New York Times magazine. Mitch mcconnell got everything he wanted, but the president he helped elect has turned out to be one thing he cant control. The author of that cover story joins us straight ahead. And congressman jim clyburn will be our guest. Were back in just a moment. In. Specialists yeah, im looking at them now. Theyll drop everything hey. Take care of this baby yeah, that procedure seems right. That one too. At t provides edge to edge intelligence. It can do so much for your business, the list goes on and on. Thats the power of. When your patients tests come back. A lot will happen in your life. Wrinkles just wont. Neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repairs dermproven retinol works so fast, it takes only one week to reveal younger looking skin. Neutrogena® audible members know listening has the power to change us, make us better people. With audible you get more. Two Audible Originals exclusive titles you cant find anywhere else. Plus a credit good for any audiobook and exclusive fitness and wellness programs. All for just 14. 95 a month, and always ad free. The most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories, the best place to listen. Download audible and start your free trial today. Just as important as what you get out of it . Our broccoli cheddar is made with aged melted cheddar, simmered broccoli, and no artificial flavors. Enjoy 100 clean soup today. Panera. Food as it should be. Y y makes it beautiful. State of the Art Technology makes it brilliant. The visionary lexus nx. Lease the 2019 nx 300 for 339 mo. For 36 months. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. And the army taught me a lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Joining us now, the number three ranking democrat in the house, Majority Whip Jim Clyburn of South Carolina. It is great to have you on the show this morning. So, sir, whats going on right now to try and end the shutdown . Well, i think that what we have just seen has been some movement in the senate, which i think is whats required to get us started on this. Mitch mcconnell has made it very clear that he would not bring anything to the floor until he feels that the president will support it, and so i think this gets us started. He already has three or four bills that hes gotten from the house. Any one of them he could attach something to or they could come up with something on his own, send it to us. And i would like to see us get into somewhat of a pingpong situation. Lets just try to Work Together right up front. Let got done without the and then agree to send it to the government so we can get the government open right away. Holding federal employees as hostages is just unacceptable. So do you think the president should revise his offer, or should this be on the level of Mitch Mcconnell working with the democrats now . Well, i think hes on the level. I cant see Mitch Mcconnell going out there again not feeling certain that the president is going to sign something. But, you know, we have got to have the government open right away. And i think we can do a continuing resolution to get that done right away and give us all time, 15 to 30 days to get this worked out among both the house and senate and the white house. But put the people back to work, which could be done with a continuing resolution that we could agree on today and let that take place while we are debating back and forth. So if theres resistance to a c. R. , what should the democrats do . Should nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer go back and see the again . What well, the options are not mmm because too many people ill see if there are elements on both sides that if brought together into one document would work very well for the rest of government. But i dont think it bodes well, not just for those people involved but for the country and for the International Community as far as the keconomy is concerned for us to continue to keep the government shut down. I think we ought to go ahead and do that and sit down and work out our differences. Good morning. Its willie geist. The president has offered temporary protection for daca resip kwents. Theres no question they would call that amnesty. Is that something you would work with . Absolutely. That opens a conversation. But we keep talking about dauk. The fact of the matter is not do we just have a wall, what constitutes a wall . Ive been talking about a smart wall. Ive been talking about a combination of barriers, a smart wall using drones, sensors, xray equipment. Ive been talking about opening up, retro fitting our points of entry and requiring all Asylum Seekers to come through those ports of entry and be sure they are welcoming when they get there. How can congratulations give on the wall when nancy pelosi has laid down the marker that a wall is, quote, immoral. Do you agree with her that a wall is immoral . She was talking about a concrete edifice. Ive talked to her about a wall and about barriers in inappropriate places. I agree with that weve seen the great wall of johnson, we soon berle. Oos but smart walls, barriers that are welcoming, these things i think nancy would agree to. Well, the president wants a physical wall. Kasie hunt has a question for you. Its good to see you. Good morning. Thank you. What is the reality that the president did not talk to nancy pelosi about this deal he was putting on the table in advance. Do you think that signals he wants to net in good faith . Well, i think that and i think the other steps on the hell that i dont think that means much. Do i believe that there are things taking place between the house and the senate and the white house and the principals when people think the atmosphere is okay to reach a settlement. Congressman, youre a popular man these days. I noticed yesterday in South Carolina cory booker and Bernie Sanders were boast both with you to commemorate the Martin Luther king holiday and will be in ton fnl. Which of these candidates so far as impressed you the most . Well, i have not singled any one out. Up may was given the nod to be one of the stakes in a socalled preprimary window, i promised the National Party that i would not get overtly involved in the primary because we wanted to be a contest that everybody would be confident coming to. So im not going to single out any one of them at this point. I will vote, but i suspect that its best for me not to get too far out in front of all the candidates. We want all of them to come. We want to use this primary series to build the Democratic Party. We want the economy of South Carolina to benefit from all of these people coming to our state, and i think it will be foolhardy for me to get offer about vold are you happy just broadly, congressman torque see a large field shaping up for democrats this time, a couple o lot of people viewed it as the coronation of hillary clinton. I am happy to see that. Because there are so many elements of hour party get willing getting into the requesting and. We had various background, various visions and the visions were debated in order to keep down division. I think having a big field will be a tremendous benefit not just to our party but to all the communities involved. We need to demonstrate that this party is open, people are welcome to debate it, the issues, and i think that that is good for the paper, good for the country and i really think its good for the International Stage as well. All right, congressman jim clyburn, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. And kasie hunt, i a wanted to grab your thoughts on 2020 what are your thoughts in terms what jim clyburn saying that the winner needs to demonstrate they want to carry this through and that the party is open. I think thats going to be an essential piece of this and youre already seeing some of these candidates Kamala Harris was a and theres mistake thats something shes looking to focus on. Theres going to be this debate within the Democratic Party how it is that you beat donald trump back and win back those voters. It are some differences. Youve nn. Do they have to appeal to might and there are plenty of democrats who will tell you, look, we dont actually need to make that choice but privately they will put it a little bichb differently. I think youll start to see that battle play out here. It already is. Still ahead tom brokaw joins us with his thoughts on the op going Government Shutdown. Plus, in a if you will were going to talk to the politics editor for the New York Times magazine who and morning joe ou will be right back. clapping every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. the United States Postal Service makes more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, affordably and ontime. ringing the future only happens with people who really know how to deliver it. [indistinct conversation] [friend] ive never seen that before. I have. We have a man, one of the most powerful men in the world, hes okay. Comes from kentucky. Not bad. Hes rock ribbed kentucky leader. Hes been a leader for a long time. Theres nobody tougher, theres nobody smarter. Tough cookie. I know tough people. Hes tough. President trump with words of praise for Mitch Mcconnell at a rally in kentucky back in october. Joining us now the politics editor for New York Times magazine, charles holman, the author of Mitch Mcconnell got everything he wanted but at what cost. He writes in part, the shutdown distilled the essence of mcconnells position in trumps washington a man of institutions and establishments whose own legacy was now tied to that of a president who seems heldbent on burning both to the ground. Youve called the president embarrassing. Can you remember seeing a spectacle like this when we had the red moon the other night . I think the moon was embarrassed because of look down at the United States. Ive been looking into the last year of richard nixon. That was extraordinarily well run compared to whats going on now. He was in siege obviously. Israel almost went down because it was invaded by egypt. Nixon saved israel during that time. If Something Like that happened now, i cant imagine the chaos that would exist in the National Security offices and in the white house about how we would respond to that kind of an international crisis. So its a very troubling time. I think the democrats are as much to blame as the republicans are, have control of the house but theyre mostly like, yeah, yeah, yeah, were not going to do what you want to do. You havent seen a grand plan. You have the young members running through the halls conducting pep rallies every day, instead of getting together with the more moderate people or the people in the midwest who have won in ohio, wisconsin and minnesota where they need to win again if theyre going to get the control but theyre driven hard by the left. So much its a time of great chaos, i think. As i talk to people around the country in they say the same thing, cant they get together . When are they going to get together and talk to each other . I think embarrassing the word, the one you used. Mitch mcconnell sat on the sidelines for a long time saying this is a fight between democrats and republicans, leave me out of it but he said im going to bring this up for a vote this week. Whats been his approach to this . Is he watching this play out with federal workers not be able to make rent payments and pay for medication and things like that . Has that impacted him as a human at all . Thats a good question. I think hes been happy to stay out so far because he sees no percentage, doesnt seem z himself having a lot of leverage between pelosi and where the president is at on this. He sad said a the prswhich is a major impediment here obviously. Before the enough congress began, he and paul ryan had worked out a compromise that would have at least pushed this off to february, provided a little more room to negotiate, but the president blew that ups in. Think his own members are feeling the heat back in their home states, Lisa Murkowski for one. He doesnt have a ton of leverage beyond the ability to simply bring up a bill for a vote on the floor. There are a small handful of americans who Pay Attention to the multiple news cycles each day and twitter each day. Theyre called elected officials and members of the media. But theres a larger group of people who live day by day. Does Mitch Mcconnell have any sense of history and how history might treat him . I think he does. He has a sense of how he wants to be treated. Whether thats how history will treat him, i dont know. Tried to get a lot of tho are lagsship of trump. When i asked him how he felt about his own legacy and trumps legacy being tied together in history, he sort of rejected that premise. Did you get any sense from him how he feels about trump and what he thinks about him as a human being . Hes very careful and judicial dishes in wa he he says. I dont think anybody mistakes their relationship or anything more than that. You did ask his wife, who happens to be trumps transportation secretary and how that all plays out. There was a long silence on the phone and she punted the question off to her husband and the president. I asked a lot of people and nobody was willing to give me a firm answer. What should Mitch Mcconnell be doing . And is what hes not doing and other republicans are not doing why you left the Republican Party in the first place . Well, one of the reasons and this goes back to the point mike was making a moment ago about mcconnell as place in history. Its really unusual to see the gop in particular and the senate in particular acting like a parliamentary party. Senators love the senate. They love the institution of the senate. They take it very seriously as the upper house. They really see themselves as something very much a part, you know, even within the congress. And to see mcconnell essentially acting like. Kind of party whip for Prime Minister trump, where did thats not usually the character of the senate. The senate prizes its independence. So to me ive been stunned and one of the reasons i couldnt be a republican anymore is that when you get senators who say the institution of the presidency is more important than the senate and our independent role as the upper house, then youre just an extension of the president s party. Youre not not even the president s party. Youre an extension of the president s personal cultive personality or vehicle for his whims. That a really strange position for a Senate Majority leader to be in because that is simply not the historical behavior of the senate. I think its especially strange toy mcconnell and. You mentioned montana, california, texas, florida, places youve been recently. Do you think whats been going on for the past two years has truly altered peoples impressions and feelings about the institution of the presidency and the our country, how everything works. I think they still endorse the idea of america and the system that we have in place, but one of my friends in the west who is a very strong republican said hes a clown, we dont like to listen to him but were conservatives out here. We dont have any other can cho i think the big, big issue it but the chinese is locking at this kind of Case Organization and south now is the time to go. Look at the idea of the wall the idea that youre going to put up a wall and keep people out when we have access to electronic oversight, looking at the technology with military drones right now, a lot of it has to do with race frankly. I looked at documents that showed how Illegal Immigrants were working in ohio, doing everything they wanted to be doing and everybody working at Construction Companies saying i dont think i want brown grand babies. Theres a lot of it and nobodys talking about it. But weve got to get control of our borders. Thats indisputable. But this is not going to change that, frankly. As jim clyburn said moments ago, were for that as well, but we want hightech solutions, not wall borders. You came in here with one thing on your mind. I became a drew brees fan. And when i saw that play, i thought thats not a hard call. Helmettohelmet hit, pass interference right there. It is a classic failure of the zebras. If they had a replay, theyd have to have braille for the seeb ras. Now theyre talking about replay for pass interference, which could make the game five hours long. I dont know if thats a good idea either. Coming up, bob menendez joins us when morning joe comes right back. Joe comes right back dont let cracked skin tell you what to wear. New aveeno® cracked skin cica ointment. With shea butter and triple oat complex. For fast relief and a protective barrier for lasting relief. Wear what you love, aveeno®. Always a catch. Like somehow you wind up getting less. But now that i book at hilton. Com, and i get all these great perks. I got to select my room from the floor plan. Very nice. I know, im good at picking stuff. Free wifi. Laptop by the pool is a bold choice. And the price match guarantee. How do you know all of this . Are you like some magical hilton fairy . Its just here on the hilton app. Just available to the public, so. Book at hilton. Com and get the hilton price match guarantee. If you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25 off that stay. If youand the army taught me wa lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Last Week Senate Republicans blocked an effort to divide and keep sanctions in place on a kremlin ally tied to paul manafort. Now the New York Times reports that a binding confidential document signed by both sides suggests that the agreement the Trump Administration negotiated with the companies controlled b. Treasury secretary Steve Mnuchkin announced the agreement to lift sanctions as long as the companyly diminished Oleg Deripaska ownership and control. A document released to the New York Times describes the detail in considerably greater detail. The document not seen by msnbc shows sanctions relief deal will allow Oleg Deripaska to wipe out potentially hundred of millions of dollars in debt by transferring some of his shares to vtb, a russian Government Owned Bank under limited United States sanctions that had lent him large sums of money. Now the confidential document shows allies of Oleg Deripaska and the kremlin with significant stakes in his companies. In response the Treasury Department said in part that Oleg Deripaska has lost control of the entities and. Quote can no longer use them to carry out illicit activities on behalf of the kremlin. Tom nichols, overall situation with russia, but specific to Oleg Deripaska doesnt seem like the administration is actually working to protect him and help him. Well, once again, you know, what weve always seen with russia is that theres not a russia policy coming out of the white house, there are several russia policies. There are people who are trying to make sanctions stick. There are people trying to keep the russians and keep their feet to the fire. Its important to remember the russians are still throwing their weight around against the ukrainian navy, and were basically just taking it, accepting it as normal. Then you have the president s approach which is to let the gas up on the sanctions and apparently going back to our earlier conversation the gop has decided that its the parliamentary arm of the president s wishes. You had that rebellion amongst some senators but that did not include people that you would have thought would be there like mitt romney to take one prominence example. Its not clear to me theres any coherency here. The russians and chinese and everybody are noticing this. They see this lack of could her rerns and see a lot of opportunities in it. Tom nichols, thank you very much for being on this morning. This next story, kasie hunt, i want to get your take. The calls for secretary of state mike pompeo to run for Senate Continue to come in. Pompeo is seriously eyeing a 2020 campaign for what will become a vacant Kansas Senate seat wordi iaccording to politi. Heres what young said when asked about it yesterday. Its certainly his decision. But having served with mike pompeo in the house of representatives, and having worked with him as director of Central Intelligence and then as secretary of state and him continuing in that capacity, i can say without equivocation and without qualification i can conceive of no one who id rather work with. Kasie hunt, whats going on here . Whats going on is that, i think, theres a sense that, you know, perhaps, a very unorthodox situation, a cabinet official deciding to trade in that post for a Junior Senate seat is actually a possibility in the Trump White House when theres so much uncertainty both about the president himself but also about the outcome of the Mueller Report. If youre mike pompeo and looking out for your own skin a little bit what are you thinking about doing. For Mitch Mcconnell to recruit Mike Mcconnell to make sure this seat says in safe republican hands. Kansas hasnt voted a democrat in decades. Thats a little bit of warning sign. Mitch mcconnell is nothing incredibly forceful to get candidates to run for these seats that he wants to. Hes been very personally involved in trying to recruit pompeo to run. Again, i mean think about what it would take if you were secretary of state to trade in that job. That says a lot about the president , mika. Given pompeos career in kansas elected politics and member of the house, given its kansas and given hes a republican as you just indicated, maybe forever since kansas i think its 1932 or Something Like that. Whats the timeline for pompeo. He has time before he would leave the secretary of states job and announce for the senate, i would think, doesnt he . I think he does. Look, mike, the question might simply be can he wait out bob mueller and that report. Pete williams has reported they are expected to have that wrapped up by february or march. Its clear republicans want to try to lay the ground work here but youre right. This wouldnt be, you know, for a run until 2020. Theres certainly is some lead time. He can wait and see just how bad its really going to be. Im inned to know how many other officials in the trump orbit are looking around and feeling the same way. All right, kasie hunt, thank you very much. Still ahead, Rudy Giuliani tries to clean up his comments about a trump tower project in moscow, but only adds more confusion. Plus, the latest impacts of the Government Shutdown with President Trump tweeting a minute ago, quote, no cave. Let that breathe. Morning joe is coming right back. Morning joe is coming right back welcome to fowler, indiana. One of the windiest places in america. And home to three bp wind farms. In the offchance the wind ever stops blowing here. The lights can keep on shining. Thanks to our natural gas. A smart partner to renewable energy. Its always ready when needed. Or. Not. At bp, we see possibilities everywhere. To help the world keep advancing. From capital one. Nd i switched to the spark cash card i earn unlimited 2 cash back on everything i buy. And last year, i earned 36,000 in cash back. Which i used to offer Health Insurance to my employees. Whats in your wallet . Wat t. Rowe price, hundreds of our experts go beyond the numbers to examine Investment Opportunities firsthand. Like a biotech firm that engineers a patients own cells to fight cancer. This is strategic investing. Because your investments deserve the full story. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Christmas eve i believe we got our letters electronically that we have a shutdown. Meantime im still going through chemo. I have about four or five more chemo treatments left and we get the news that i may not get paid. So come january. And thankfully we made it through christmas without any interruptions but here comes january and im still having chemo treatments. That is shawn, an employee at the Treasury Department, a mother, a stage two cancer patient dealing with the fallout from the Government Shutdown, dealing with not getting paid. Good morning and welcome to morning joe. It is tuesday, december 22nd. Joe is off this morning. But along with willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle. Republican strategist and msnbc political analyst suzanne, Eugene Robinson and cofounder of axios. In a moment well continue that conversation, update you on the Government Shutdown now having an impact on the Global Economy as well along with the lives of the American People. But first President Trumps attorney, Rudy Giuliani said sunday that despite multiple denials during the campaign his client continued conversations with building a tower in moscow until november 2016. Now giuliani is trying to walk back his comments. In a written statement yesterday quote, my recent statements, this is the president s attorney, my recent statements about discussions during the 2016 campaign between Michael Cohen and thencandidate donald trump about a potential trumpmoscow project were hypothetical and not based on conversations i had with the president. My comments did not represent the actual timing or circumstances of any such discussions. The point is that the proposal was in the earliest stage and did not advance beyond a free nonbinding letter of intent. However, speaking to the New York Times on sunday giuliani quoted what President Trump allegedly said to him, that the trump tower moscow discussions were going on from the day i announced to the day i run. The new yorker magazine asked giuliani about what he told the times and giuliani replied, i did not say that. Ask if the times made it up, giuliani said i dont know if they made it up. What i was talking about if he did have those conversations, they would not be criminal. New york times is reporting theres frustration with giuliani within trumps inner circle. The piece quotes several people close to mr. Trump has grown capaci exasperated with giuliani. In an interview last night with fox news the president s son donald trump jr. Denied that he and the Trump Campaign knew anything about the project. When was the last discussion about this trump tower deal because rudy got everybody really confused, i have to say. He goes on meet the press and says well it could have been right through the election. Then he said he was talking in hypothetical terms today. I dont know. I dont talk about things i dont know about. Unfortunately that sometimes happens and no different than anyone else. The reality is this wasnt a deal. We dont know the developer. We dont know the site. We dont know anything about it. Ultimately it was Michael Cohen essentially trying to get a deal done. He didnt bring too many deals to the table. Nobody took it all that seriously. Thats the reality of what went on. In september of 2017 trump jr. Testified to the Senate Judiciary committee that he knew quote very little about the project except that his father had signed a letter of intent in 2015. And then another exchange from Rudy Giulianis interview with the new yorker yesterday. He was asked same things for trump not always being truthful about it do you ever twhoer w, e your legacy. Giuliani responded absolutely. Rudy giuliani lied for trump. Somehow i dont think it will be it. I dont care. Ill be dead. I can explain it to saint peter. Hell be on my side because im so far, i dont think as a lawyer i ever said anything thats untruthful. I have a sense of ethics thats as high as anybody you can imagine. Ive been doing this forever. Im doing in what i believe in. I may not always be right but im doing what i believe is right. Susan, didnt you work for him and does this look like the same individual you worked for . Whats going on here . This is not the americans mayor i knew. This is a different Rudy Giuliani. He, obviously, doesnt care about his legacy. Hes out there supporting the President Trump blindly. And maybe not with all the information. I wish you could see years ago when he used to give reports, budget reports, everything, he would do it completely unscripted, have every fact down, able to deliver hour long speech and not miss a beat. This seems this is a different Rudy Giuliani now and hes more concerned about staying relevant and in the news media than he is definitely about his legacy. So Gene Robinson well talk about the content and go back through what Rudy Giuliani said. Lets take his premise as he responds. He says i was speaking in a hypothetical and not based on conversations with the president. Hes representing himself as the attorney for donald trump when he goes on tv so i guess were under the assumption he spoke to his client and relaying the president s position on these matters. If hes going on tv and freelancing whats the point of even interviewing him . Thats the question. Why would you talk to Rudy Giuliani or pay the slightest attention to what he says if not for the fact that he represents the president. He was with the president on the campaign. Known to be close to the president. Hes one of the people who can pick up the phone and call donald trump or donald trump picks up the phone and calls Rudy Giuliani. So, of course, you assume this is based on some nugget of information at the very least. So, his defense is, i guess, im just make stuff up, and if hes just make stuff up, we cant pay any attention to him. This is really crazy, because hes not doing his client any good. One understands why people in the white house and other people on the legal team would be enormously frustrated at this. Its one thing to sow confusion as a diversionary tactic but this has gone beyond that to Something Else thats not good for the president. Mike barnacle, i think it would be a sad exercise to figure out whats going on with him. What about the story . What about pulling back the big picture. To his errors, to his misstatements, to his lies martin long term . We dont know because we dont know if they are lies or mistaken statements that he makes. Its so hard to follow him. The new Yorker Interview that you just referenced is another example. This is out of the new yorker. Hes talking about the buzzfeed story. I can tell you from the moment i read the story i knew the story was false. The interviewer said because . Rudy then says because ive been through all the tapes. Ive been through all the texts. Ive been through all temp mailings. None existed. The interviewer said wait what tapes. Giuliani says i shouldnt have said tapes. You dont know. The level of incompetence hes bringing to this whether its planned or unplanned, only he knows. Jim, i have never seen this before in a representative of the president of the United States, but we are continually getting into unchartered waters seemingly by the hour. Yeah. But to be clear on one thing, rudy does talk to trump all the time. And so when he comes out there and he goes on meet the press and then calls the New York Times and says that he definitely was involved in this moscow deal from beginning to end on the campaign, its hard for me to believe that he was just freelancing and that he misspoke. 24 hours later he comes back and says thats not true. Why . Because his admission would be one of the biggest bomb shells that weve had since the beginning of this russia investigation. He was essentially on the record admitting that a candidate for president of the United States was working on a multibillion dollar business deal with Vladimir Putins russia while running for russia and telling the American People that he wasnt working on that deal while russia was trying to tip the election in his favor. That fact set is devastating for trump. It goes to the heart of what mueller is looking at. So i fine it hard to believe he just happened to say that because he knows what was in those written answers from trump to the special prosecutor. He knows a lot more than we do about what mueller knows. So in the flury of all thing, is this a big dale, is that a b s a big deal. They know how much negotiations were going on the moscow deal. If trump was involved and it was more extensive than we were led to believe thats a big deal. Mika, thats exactly why you can ever discount the existence of tapes as he just said. Nice of him to volunteer it. To figure out exactly whats going on. I mean, willie, this just feels everybody is ping ponging with the truth. How many days not since the shutdown began but since we had a White House Press briefing where we can ask question. Its been some time. Jim is absolutely right, susan, this is not a slip of the tongue. Giuliani has said this a couple of times. We talked about what he said to the New York Times, discussions going on. Were going on from the day i announced to the day i won. He also told abc back in december it would have covered all the way up to november of 2016. So when hes talking to chuck on meet the press is not a slip of the tongue. Now hes trying to clean up the mess. Im not sure donald trump does mind this. He loves Rudy Giuliani personally and likes any smoke screen thats throne up whether its based in fact or not that confuses the public. They do speak all the time. And thats now also added to this white house intrigue. People are frustrated with Rudy Giuliani in white house, but heres the other thing. Rudy giuliani is very frustrated where he is right now with the folks in the white house as well. This is a back and forth that rudy didnt think he would find himself in the middle of. But he definitely is acting with the president s consent on what hes doing going forward. Were leading off with this story and well talk about the shutdown, but thats exactly what the president doesnt want us talking about. Still ahead on morning joe from mortgages to medicine the impact of the Government Shutdown extends far beyond the halls of capitol hill. What congress and the white house are saying about this selfinduced crisis. But first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. That picture showed the scene in d. C. All through the northeast. The bitterly cold arctic air mass is with us. Well watch it exiting quickly. So today still very cold this morning. Coldest temperatures up in Northern New England. Buffalo is not great. But were already starting to warm up here in the midwest. Green bay is up to 17. St. Louis at 19. Arctic air will be gone. Next winter storm already on the map. Interstate 70 is closed. Blizzard warnings super. As you head out of denver into rural sections and heading towards goodland, kansas. Winter storm warnings up to green bay. Decent snowstorm later today. Drive home will not be fun in these areas. Snowing pretty good. From des moines to cedar rapids to milwaukee this is within the three to six inch range. Could get up to eight inches in northern michigan. Chicago and detroit an inch for you. Little period of ice changing over to rain. Minor impacts there. The northeast, what happened . The storm gets here but by then too warm. It will be a rain event. Very Strange Weather pattern. Brutally cold still even today and then as this storm heads east a rain storm as we go throughout wednesday. Especially wednesday night into thursday morning for d. C. All the way to new york on i95, even Northern New England is likely to get rain out of this which is extremely rare for the middle to end of january. New york city one. Much those spots where it was absolutely unbearable yesterday. Today with a calm wind and sunshine, 28 degrees. It will feel kind of nice. Youre watching morning joe. Well be right back. I customize everything bike, wheels, saddle. Thats why i switched to liberty mutual. They customized my insurance, so i only pay for what i need. I insured my car, and my bike. My calves are custom too, but i cant insure those. Which is a crying shame. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. And if you feel, like i feel baby then come on, oh come on lets get it on applebees. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. I felt i couldnt be at my best for my family. , in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. I faced reminders of my hep c every day. 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And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Well, it is day 32 of the shutdown and there is still no resolution in sight as Congress Prepares to pursue two duelling bills to reopen the government this week. As of midday yesterday, House Speaker nancy pelosi had not spoken to the president or anyone from the white house about trumps latest proposal that would give temporary protections to Daca Recipients and immigrant from the temporary protected status Listing Exchange for a border wall. Instead the house is expected to pass a series of spending bills that would reopen parts of the government that have nothing to do with the wall while the senate takes up the proposal announced by President Trump. The Washington Post spoke with more than 40 republican senators and aides over the past week, many of whom who are standing behind trumps demand for a border wall, for border wall funding even as their party bears the brunt of the blame for the shutdown standoff. Republican senator todd young chairman of the senate gop campaign arm for 2020 told the post kwouft im not contemplating anything that the president indicated he would sign. Stock markets around the world are under pressure once again this morning over renewed concerns of the strength of the Global Economy. Those concerns were exacerbated when china posted its economy grew 6. 6 in 2018. Thats a good figure for most countries but marks the slowest reading for china since 1990. U. S. Has added to the uncertainty with ongoing trade wars and Government Shutdown. A number of economists have warned the shutdown has cut this countrys growth. U. S. Consumers who remain strong for months remain shaken by increasing warning signs about the economy. The latest Consumer Confidence reading fell to the lowest level of Donald Trumps presidency. Ahead of the annual World Economic forum in davos the International Monetary fund downgraded its expectation for the Global Economy, warning the risks of a major slow down have increased separately price wa r Waterhouse Cooper said 60 economists are satisfied about the economy. Here at home were in our second month, in term of days and weeks, second month of the Government Shutdown right now with the prospect of federal workers losing a second check coming up at the end of the week. Man, it doesnt look to me like theres any movement or any talk in congress, any negotiation over President Trumps latest proposal. In 25 years of watching this stuff ive never seen an impasse like this where both sides feel so selfcertain and then point to data their party wants them to continue the stance they have. Theres not an obvious middle ground. Republicans, if anything, feel more dug in today than they did four days ago because they think the president s speech allows them to go out and say listen were trying to propose a compromise that takes care of immigration. Nancy pelosi says its a nonstarter. Most democrats say its a nonsecretary of state. Jonathan swan pointed out theres not a single democrat that says they like the trump compromise. The president said privately this can go on a year. I dont think it could but at this point who knows. Theres no sign theres a middle ground. Gene, its striking that this shutdown, the longest in history is surrounded by rhetoric on both sides as jim just pointed out, democrats feeling confident in their position, republicans feeling increasingly confident because of the president s televised appearance saturday afternoon. Yet overhanging this is a level of almost indifference among elected officials that even someone as jaded as i am finds shocking. Its amazing. Theres this fight going on and as you and jim pointed out, both republicans and democrats for their own reasons are more dug in than ever, apparently. Yet theres a shutdown going on. Theres real impact on real people. Some of them, my neighbors here in the Washington Area but not just in washington. In places like alaska where theres a large percentage of federal workers and montana and places like that across the country this is having an impact. Not just federal workers, its contractors as well. People who work on contract, work for firms that work on contract for the federal government who are having the economic impact. I dont see how this gets resolved until the broader public feels more of a direct impact and that can happen, for example, in air travel. There are a lot of tsa agents who are simply are not going to be able to continue to work without pay for that much longer. They are just not they dont make that much money. They have to put food on the table, and in an economy that is basically full employment they have to go out and look for other jobs. The air Traffic Controllers, they make more money, but they keep directing the pilots in the sky. There can be lots of disruption in Something Like air travel that could concentrate the minds of our elected representatives. Coming up on morning joe, women made history in the 2018 midterms and they are doing it again in 2020. Never before seen a president ial field like the one taking shape right now and its a big deal for the country and for donald trump. Thats next on morning joe. vo were carvana, the company who invented car vending machines and buying a car 100 online. Now weve created a brand new way for you to sell your car. Whether its a few years old or dinosaur old, we want to buy your car. So go to carvana and enter your license plate, answer a few questions, and our technowizardry calculates your cars value and gives you a real offer in seconds. When youre ready, well come to you, pay you on the spot, and pick up your car. Thats it. So ditch the old way of selling your car and say hello to the new way. At carvana. Looking at 2020 now, senator Kamala Harris will make the first stop of her president ial campaign in the early voting state of South Carolina on friday. Shes set to speak at a fundraiser for the columbia chapter of her alpha sorority. The senator from california will launch her campaign on sunday with a kick off rally in her home town of oakland. She then heads to the first of the nation voting state iowa for a town hall at Drake University in des moines on monday. Hours after announcing her candidacy the senator held a News Conference at her alma mater, Howard University where Andrea Mitchell asked her this question. Senator, joe biden has said the test should be who is best able to defeat donald trump. Thats the test. Why are you the best capable, the strongest democrat to defeat donald trump . Well, andrea, lets start with this. I love my country. I love my country. And i feel a sense of responsibility to stand up and fight for the best of who we are. And im prepared to fight and i know how to fight. And in particular when were talking about fighting for the values that we hold sacred and dear, when it comes to talking about how we fight for the American People, and have leadership in this country, that is focused on the needs of the people instead of selfinterest, im prepared to fight that way, and i believe it will be a winning fight. But 17 or more other democrats say that they love their country. Why are you better than they . I think the voters will decide ultimately. The senator encouraged other democrats who want to run to jump in. She said her path to victory will be through all 50 states. John kennedy once said when you see daylight run to it. Thats what women across america and the world have been doing since donald trump got elected. Running. From womens marches to School Board Campaigns to congressional landslides the political skies seem to have opened up wide for women in a way unseen in our lifetimes. And the most bitter irony for the man whose agenda these women will soon be stopping in its tracks its donald trump himself whose excesses, racism led to this landmark. With the latest entry by Kamala Harris, the early pace for the democratic nomination for president is being set by women. In addition to harris her fellow senators, Kirsten Gillibrand of new york, Elizabeth Warren of massachusetts have also made their own move towards history. Other gifted women including minnesota senator Amy Klobuchar are considering their own runs. Why this big number of strong, credible female candidates for president in one cycle . Literally unprecedented in American History . One reason is surely hillary clinton. She took a lot of space in the Democratic Party and her loss in 2016 created a huge opening for a new group of women to step up. Its also the Natural Evolution morphing in to a revolution as women have spent decades rising in numbers and influence at top levels of the party, now it is their time. Whether a woman ultimately becomes a democratic nominee or not and i suspect one will, these women senators, harris, warren, gillibrand and likely others will set the pace and set the agenda and tap into the grassroot support of women and men to repudiate donald trump, change the direction of this country and show young people of this country to know what it means to know their value. Its pastime that america finally elects a woman as president and joins the ranks of our western allies in civilized countries across the world and im looking forward to it. Coming up the top democrat on the Foreign Relations country, senator bob menendez is standing by. He joins the conversation next on morning joe. When i came across carson, he just looked like hed been through the meat grinder. It was raining pretty hard. I could hear people inside the vehicle screaming. 911 operator, muffled 911, whats your emergency . I remember seeing a fireman. Were about to get you out, bud. Were about to get you out. mccarron just a true miracle to be alive. Not long ago, ronda started here. And then, more jobs began to appear. These techs in a lab. This builder in a hardhat. The welders and electricians who do all of that. The diner staffed up cause they all needed lunch. Teachers. Doctors. Jobs grew a bunch. What started with one job spread all around. Because each job in energy creates many more in this town. Energy lives here. And if you feel, like i feel baby then come on, oh come on lets get it on applebees. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. If you want to get the most details about your family history. My pie chart showed that im from all over europe, but then it got super specific. I learned my people came from a small region in poland and even a little bit of the history about why they might have migrated during that time. Those migration patterns are more than just lines on a map, theyre really your familys story. I cant wait to see what im going to discover next. 20 million members have connected to a deeper family story. Order your kit at ancestry. Com. How does it make you feel that your family is going through this situation, and washington doesnt seem to be agreeing . It makes me feel at this point invisible. Ive been supporting as a federal worker the government for over 11 years and its just like although i feel like personally we have nothing to do with whatever this political decision is thats going on in washington, like were being affected. Real live people are being affected. With real life daytoday decisions. Its unfortunate. Seems so unnecessary and uncalled for and its frustrating. Like we dont even have a say in i want at all. These are the harsh realities thousands of federal workers and their families are living daytoday amid the Government Shutdown. And joining us now with more on their stories is msnbc correspondent marianna. Reporter im in washington, d. C. Volunteers are getting ready to serve thousands of federal employees and their families in need, steps away from the white house and capitol hill. The need is so great they tell me that in the span of a week they served roughly 20,000 meals here. Not just the nations capital. Four out of five of these federal employees live in places like the greater d. C. Area, maryland, virginia, and thats where i have been listening to so many heartbreaking stories of government workers trying to get by as this shutdown enters its second month. And among them is shawn. Shes a mother of three. Works for the department of treasury and has stage two breast cancer. She is the breadwinner in her household, her Health Insurance continues but lack of pay make Certain Health needs unaffordable. I still have medical expenses thats not covered by Health Insurance although my husband is a postal worker, we still need those expenses that come with this medical thing, this disease called cancer. So putting cancer in your budget is unexpected, but we just have to deal with it. This is where we are right now. With no end in sight, this is like the most horrible experience ever. Ill negotiate with my chemo. That has to happen. This chemo or the rent. Chemo withins. Reporter i asked her what the worst case scenario, mika, was for her and her family. She tells me they are facing eviction and that is next month. But between paying the rent and chemo, she said chemo will always win. Those are, as you said, the real life decisions these every day people are being forced to make because of whats happening in washington. Thank you so much. It really brings it home. Joining us now to talk about this, democratic senator of new jersey bob menendez. Hes Ranking Member of the Foreign Relations committee. Also with us for this conversation, professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson. Senator, you know you hear the stories of these people who are suffering, and it doesnt seem to resonate for President Trump. He says they will adjust. He hasnt said much more except calling them good patriots. What is it going to take to end this shutdown . To bring it to an end . What is going to have to happen especially given this president will not, apparently, bend on his wall money . Well, theres one person in the country who uniquely could end the shutdown and thats President Trump. Senator mcconnell has made it very clear hell put whatever on the floor the president will sign. If the president indicates all those departments of the federal government that have absolutely nothing to do with the wall that he desires can be opened. A great part of virtually most of everything except Homeland Security would automatically be opened because there was a unanimous vote in december to fund all of the government. A vote that the president originally said that he would ultimately take that legislation and sign it and only when conservative commentators started to criticize him did he cower and turn away from an agreement he had made and then asked for 5 billion for the wall. Up to 5. 7 billion. The plan he offered the other day added another couple of billion for different purposes. The reality is this is a constantly moving target. If the president indicated that at least those departments of the federal government, transportation, agriculture, commerce, justice, just to maengs few, they have absolutely nothing to do with the wall could be opened, then a great part of the harm thats being done to federal workers, federal contractors who are even in worse position with their employees could end tomorrow. How long, though, does this have to go on with the president Standing Firm on his border wall money and not bending and not signing anything. How long does this have to go before Congress Tries to find another way to end this . Is there another way . Is there way democrats and republicans could act without the president . Anyway at all to end this without needing the president s involvement . What if he cant be depended on to participate . Well theres some suggestion that the constitution actually allows for legislation to be passed that doesnt need the president s signature. Im not quite sure that thats a correct constitutional view and i dont think that would even get on the floor in the senate because senator mcconnell wouldnt let it happen. We need at the end of the day for the senate to act. Our argument is there was a unanimous vote. I believe if senator mcconnell would put the bills that Speaker Pelosi and the democrats in the house have passed that would fully fund the government on the senate floor it would pass and pass with more than 60 votes and send a clear message to the president that hes in the threat of ultimately being overridden on any veto he might consider. That would move the ball forward. But at the end of the day we cant be in a situation where youre just holding hostages, because once you do that the president will use this tactic for any other issue he wants to achieve. Youve been in the state of new jersey telling the stories of many of these federal workers who are out of work or cant make a second paycheck come friday. A lot of people filling in the gaps in the state of new jersey from food banks to jon bon jovi is giving free meals at his restaurant to federal employees. Yes they might be frustrated with donald trump but they probably understand what a lot of us understand which is that donald trump is not moving off his position. What do they say to you what can you be doing to help push this along and get those people back to work . Well, ive listened to many of them. Ive had several roundtables with them yesterday in southern new jersey and Little Egg Harbor city and montclare this past week and ive heard from emily at the epa, from federal prison workers, from air Traffic Controllers, which is a stressful job and we all need them to do well as we fly. So, i think they understand exactly why this happened, that the president , you know, was happy to have a shutdown as he called it. And they are frustrated, of course, that we cant move forward. I think they also tuned reality that they dont want to be constantly the hostages in the president s whims. Thats why the legislation we passed to make sure that federal workers in the future get paid regardless is incredibly important. It takes some of the desire of the president to use them as hostag hostages but doesnt solve the immediate problem. I hope the president under all he has to do is message mcconnell, go ahead have a vote. I want to open it all. But if nothing else open every other department of the government that has absolutely nothing to do with the wall. If you want to keep Homeland Security which is ridiculous because thats about securing the nation on a thread, at least that would solve a good part of the problem. The president has rejected that idea the partial reopening of the government. What makes you think mitch mckeoconnell can put enough bru on him. President trump is listening to people who put him in office. There are more republican senators in this cycle who are up for election. Im sure they are hearing from their electorate back home, some of those voices have begun to speak up in the Republican Caucus as more of those voices speak up. Mitch mcconnell will care about preserving his majority more than it is about make the president happy. Senator bob menendez, democrat from new jersey. Thanks for your time this morning. Walter, down in new orleans where you live, i assume a lot of people have figured out the debate here. Theres one side the president saying i want my wall. The other side, the democrats saying youre not getting your wall. In the larger general public that you exist among on your normal every day life, whats your sense . What are people thinking . What are they getting . Is it so much noise to them out of washington . They certainly must realize the degree of difficulty and the hurt that 800,000 americans are going through who arent getting paid. Whats your sense of the general tenor of what they are taking in . Well i think a lot of people down here feel its not that hard to figure out what the solution is. They dont quite under why people have gotten, especially the president so theologyical about the notion of a wall. People say yeah you can spend more on Border Security. We have 650 miles of fence or so. Theres money to extend that. Lets keep our eyes on the priorities. The two priorities are really getting federal workers back to work, and also helping dreamers, you know, the kids here, you need an extension, hopefully an indefinite extension on daca so dreamers can be here safely. So its easy to see the framework of a deal which a couple of times has popped up but they feel, especially the president , but everybody in washington has gotten on a high horse about a wall that nobody knows whether it should be 650 miles of barrier or 750, and they probably want more Border Security and they want this thing, the shutdown ended. Walter, you know, i mean the security argument, the Border Security argument, i dont know anyone who doesnt think Border Security isnt important and we need tighter Border Security. But the injection of fear that the president puts in this argument nearly every day, im wondering in louisiana, new orleans, greater new orleans, has been the home to many, many of the newer immigrants who arrived in this country over the last 20 years. Do you ever hear the element of fear thats been injected into this debate . No, not in new orleans. I mean new orleans after the storm people came from all over to help rebuild, including a lot of undocumented workers who are now incredibly valuable parts of this community. What makes new orleans great is that people from vietnamese to latinos have come in here and all added to the culture and theres not a fear of that down here. I mean after the devastating bad call or no call on the saints game you watch people parading down the streets loving this city of so many different types and remembering how important the city is to all of us. That said, thats the city of new orleans. When i go out to the rest of louisiana and mississippi and alabama, there are people saying well the democrats are getting a little whacky here in minimizing the need for Border Security and yes the president s scare tactics have a certain impact. People saying well why dont we build more fence at least along that wall. I mean along that border. Walter stay with us. On tomorrows show one of the u. S. Senators testing the waters for a president ial bid, ohio democrat Sherrod Brown joins the conversation right here on morning joe. Well be back in three minutes. Its a phrase youve likely heard in the news before. We will not negotiate with terrorists. Joining us, author joel simon, his new book, we want to negotiate, the secret world of kidnapping and ransom, looks at the way Different Countries handle the kidnapping of their nationals. Its good to have you with us. This is an incredibly thought provoking book. Lay out the press and talk about what we take as sort of gospel in the United States is we will not knee gosh yanegotiate with. Is not consistent with how the rest of the world handles this. The origin of this book is diane foley, the mother of jim foley, and her husband john, came to me when their son was missing in syria and she asked me if i would help them because theyd run out of patience with the government. They didnt feel the u. S. Government was going to help them. If id help them raise a ransom. Ultimately, their efforts were unsuccessful. Jim was killed. It got me thinking about this policy. We dont negotiate. Other countries do. European governments routinely pay ransom. So the origin of this book was to visit countries like france and spain that pay ransom and contrast that with countries like the United States and the United Kingdom wihich have this no concessions policy and dont pay ransom. The clear argument is if you start paying terrorists it will inspire more kidnapping. Thats logical and that was actually the assumption. If you pay, its going to encourage more kidnapping. In fact, i looked at all the data. I spent a lot of time looking at this. There really isnt evidence to support that. Kidnappers are not checking passports. Its a crime of opportunity. As long as they perceive some advantage to them, whether its political or a source of funding, you know, everyones vulnerable. Whether an individual country pays or not does not seem to correlate with the greater risk. We want to negotiate, the title. Give us the background of the title. Mrs. Foley, a remarkable woman. They are an incredible family. They suffered this horrific tragedy but they used their position to advocate for changes in the way people think about this issue. That was the ransom note that the foley family and the post where foley worked. The Islamic State said we want to negotiate. Thats the tight of the book because its such a difficult ethical, political, strategic question. Do you negotiate, do you ransom, thats the title. Id like to fill out, flush out, exactly what the note said. They get the note and it reads in lower case, hello, we have james, we want to negotiate for him. He is safe help , he is our frie do not want to hurt him, we want money fast. Walter. Yes, i know that both you and of course David Bradley and others working with the foley family tried to sort this through and you had to deal with the white house and the administration to some extent. What were the back channel ditions with people in the white house or in the state department trying to guide you on what to do . I have to say really David Bradley was taking the lead on that. I quoted it in the book, the direction he was getting was you Must Hold Firm to this we wont negotiate. Even when he had me in for the qatari government, he and ali sufan tried to negotiate with other governments and he was told the talking point was you cannot encourage any government to engage with the hostage takers or pay ransom. The foleys felt completely isolated. Along with the other American Families who were dealing with this issue. All right, joel simon, thank you very much. The book is we want to negotiate, the secret world of kidnap, hostages and ransom. Its out now, thank you very much for that. We have a few moments for final thoughts. Willie geist. Theres a lot in politics. I want to pause and send our best to brett baer, the outstanding reporter at fox news. We learned he and his wife and their two sons were out yesterday in montana driving down an icy road and their car flipped over. They were all hospitalized but were told that theyre going to be okay. Thats great news. Brett tweeting about that saying, dont take anything for granted. So love to brett and all the folks at fox news. Brett baer, good man, professional. Yeah. Also, mika, in light of the conversations weve been having now for weeks and days on whats happening in washington and out of the white house, count me as one person, one person alone here, maybe, i want to just wait for the Mueller Report before we talk anymore about this stuff. Right, no, its sort of vexing to follow people like giuliani. Walter isaac son, final thoughts, what should we looking for in the next few days . This friday will be another paycheck that furloughed workers do not get, if we get to friday and this shutdown does not end. I think everybodys got to take a pause and say what are the priorities here. To brett baer, he came out from that accident with a sense of gratitude in some ways. We had that yesterday in new orleans after that devastating saints loss. A city comes together, decides to do a parade. And realized if we would all step back and realize how grateful we are, we in new orleans have a great team. And were living in a time when if we understood the humility that comes from our gratitude. Knowing you get bad breaks. That sort of thing, we would have a sense of humility and maybe step back from this type of crises that are racking washington. Maybe backing up that point. I was just thinking we hear about the popup kitchens and all the food drives, diaper drives. And all donald trump is doing, the equivalent of what we saw in maria and puerto rico, simply throwing paper towels at it and not really looking for solutions. Very symbolic. Thank you. That does it for us this morning. Hallie jackson picks up the coverage right now. Mick ka thank you. I am Hallie Jackson in for Stephanie Ruhle who will be joining us in just a few moments from the World Economic forum in davos. At home, damage control from the president s attorney, Rudy Giuliani walking back what he said about the trump tower moscow project. Saying the previous comments are, quote, hypothetical. Don jr. Now