Donald trump Michael Schmidt has the details right ahead. Plus leaders gather in new york city with President Trump taking part in several events throughout the day we will bring you the first live right here on morning joe. Mean while, the president s personal lawyer, not secretary of state, Rudy Giuliani says irans government will be overthrown nikki haley reminds everyone that is not u. S. Policy. And with six weeks left, joe, its a 12 point spread, democrats lead republicans by double digits with nearly 60 calling for a significant course correction away from donald trump. We will have all the latest numbers, but the polls are fascinating this morning, joe. They are. Also we have we have the new yorker coauthor of that story on kavanaugh, jane mayer will be here later i want to go to kasie hunt just for one second we have so much in front of us, obviously so much at stake for republicans and democrats this week of course, we want them to do the right thing. We want them to search for the facts. We want justice to prevail, whichever way that what direction that goes, but at the same time theyre looking at polls and this latest poll thats out, one more example of just what largely democrats are having in the latest generic congressional ballot test, now up to 12 points. Weve seen other polls that way. How does that impact what republicans do this week and over the next month . Well, joe, i think each republican senator has to think about this in the broad context of this poll on the generic ballot as you point out, also their personal circumstances of the Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski plan to stay in the senate, they are the two to watch. Broadly republicans have a decision to make here. You can already see the fault lines starting to develop. You have i had one Top Republican aide send me a paragraph from the New York Times story off of the new yorker story looking at how they had trouble finding somebody who had a firsthand account that lined up with mrs. Ramirezs story that she told in the new yorker i can feel it sort of trending potentially away to a hardening of positioning for republicans, but it still were only a couple hours into this still and its a real question in my mind if this is something thats going to ultimately pull republicans together, harden them, make them want to fight for Brett Kavanaugh or if this could be the beginning of the end of his confirmation. Well, you know, mika, certainly i would think that its hardened the position of democrats who were considering supporting Brett Kavanaugh i think thats thats one take away. I dont think we will see the four, five, six democrats that were considering crossing over doing that now no. Theyre most likely hard nosed. That does bring in down to jeff flake, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and now of course another accusation coming out last night from the new yorker. Yeah, lets go there. Supreme Court NomineeBrett Kavanaugh issued a stern denial last night to a second allegation of Sexual Misconduct. This time as a College Student the new yorker magazine reports that Senate Democrats are investigating a claim from Debra Ramirez who says kavanaugh pulled down his pants and exposed himself to her during their freshman year at Yale University in the last week three sources familiar with the accusation told nbc about ramirezs claim ramirez, 53, is the same age as kavanaugh and they both graduated from the university in 1987 she referred nbc to her lawyer who did not respond to our request for comment. Last nights report says that in her initial conversations with the new yorker she was reluctant to characterize kavanaughs role in the alleged incident with certainty. Quoting from the article which includes graphic details, after six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, ramirez says that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say that she remembers kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party, thrust his penis into her face and caused her to touch it without her consent as she pushed him away. She is calling for the fbi to investigate. The New York Times reports they interviewed several dozen people over the past week in an attempt to corroborate ramirezs story and could not find no one with firsthand and could find no one with firsthand knowledge. The white house distributed kavanaughs response, quote, this alleged event from 35 years ago did not happen the people who knew me then know that this did not happen and have said so this is a smear, plain and simple Mike Barnicle, my god, this has become such an absolute mess and im sure you spoke to friends this weekend like i spoke to friends this weekend and we always hear about how tribal everything is what was remarkable was the complaints and the criticisms, where a stream of consciousness and one moment they were attacking republicans for accusing this woman of being or these two women of being liars, politically motivated, the next they were expressing their concerns about all those on the other side that have already convicted kavanaugh as an accused rapist or somebody i saw this weekend was talking about being a serial sexual predator weve got alcoholaltered memories, over three decades, we do have serious allegations. Serious allegations and it seems to me that both sides at this point should want the fbi to come in and investigate. Oh, absolutely. We are not going nobody nobody knows what happened it needs to be pieced together even those who are making the allegations, again, their memories are altered over 30 years and alcohol was involved, i believe, in both cases why wouldnt republicans want the fbi to investigate if they think their man is innocent . Joe, there is so much going on in this story that we could spend the rest of the morning and all day today and tomorrow talking about it, but the first point is the one you just raised, given the extraordinary nature of the circumstances surrounding this, the charges by dr. Ford, the charges as leveled by new York Magazine by mrs. Ramirez, it is insane not to pump the brakes on this process, to take a breather, to have the fbi investigate the background as well as they can. I mean, it was yearso both women, but just to take a look at it, a fresh and the other aspect of the story and there are so many, we begin this program this morning talking about polls. What has happened within the Supreme Court story is a twotrack story. Its got to affect certain congressional candidacies in certain districts across the country. Are you for judge kavanaugh or not. Thats got to be a legitimate question now in many campaigns the other aspect of it that is truly dangerous, duly threatening is the incredible hyper partisanship now surrounding the Supreme Court of the United States. These are lifetime appointments, youre supposed to look at the law as a neutral observer and decide on the basis of the law not partisanship and yet partisanship has always been there in the Supreme Court, but the hyper partisanship today is truly, truly dangerous it really is on both sides. I did myself a favor this weekend and got off twitter as much as i could because, my god, there are so many on the left and some former republicans from the right just making terrible accusations about judge kavanaugh, one saying that hes a serial sexual predator, and then on the right we have some people that you and i know who have spent the last two weeks nonstop calling these women liars. The partisanship is so out of control when none of us really know what happened on those two nights. Right twitter doesnt really foster an environment of sobriety, it kind of rewards you going to level 11 so im not exactly surprised by that reaction. But as we said over the course of this segment, the story in the new yorker questions itself on several occasions, cant put prt in the room, notes that the story as alleged is something that the allegations were made after six days of interrogating her on memories with the help of her attorney which is itself something thats a little suspicious considering that ramirez according to the New York Times told her friends that she wasnt sure whether Brett Kavanaugh was there or not. People are saying that the fbi probably has a role in this i think are probably correct, i think they should say that the president should ask the fbi to beef up the background investigations the six of which that judge kavanaugh underwent over the course of his many confirmations, but the fbi is not the super Serious Police they have a jurisdiction, they cant just investigate everything because somebody says, look, my memory is a little foggy here, id really like the fbi step in and help beef it up thats not how this works. Those saying that we need more information here are correct, but anybody who is leaping toen could collusions is doing so i think for politically motivated reasons. We dont have enough information to draw a conclusion about either of these incidents. What we have are two very serious accusations and we have two sides to a story that were trying to cover and, kasie hunt, i think its not just twitter, its the media thats in a very serious position right now and if you watch, you know, 24hour coverage of this story you may see four or five analysts in a row being brought on to convict judge kavanaugh. Theres a need for balance here because the more that you put one side on or if you have a focus group with republican operatives in it, you know, pushing the other side of the story. There are allegations here, they are not proven there is the law and there is a push for an investigation. These are the parts that we need to report, but if were not careful, if the media as a whole is not careful covering this story, were feeding into that very negative narrative that President Trump himself really drums up in his base and that is fake news. Right now all we have are two serious accusations that are not proven is that fair am i correct the bar is always high for the media to get the story right, but in a case like this where there is so much at stake, there are so many strong emotions and frankly the stakes are so incredibly high, you know, we all have a duty to the American People, to the viewers, to the readers that we are all serving every day to make sure that we are getting it right, first and foremost, and that also, yes, that there is a fairness being applied across the board. I think politically speaking when you start to dig into that democrats are more concerned about fairness towards dr. Ford and ms. Ramirez in this case and republicans to judge kavanaugh i was talking to one source of mine who used to work on these nominations inside the Senate Judiciary committee and he is a republican, but he was saying that, you know, we have become so polarized and tribal as a country, you know, we shouldnt what party you are a member of shouldnt dictate whether you believe judge kavanaugh or you believe dr. Ford we should be able to listen to what both of them have to say, they are saying opposite things essentially, and think through it and come to a logical conclusion, but that is not how this is playing out. Its playing out as you are digging in in your tribal camp on one side or the other and there are a handful of people in the middle that are the ones that really matter and they are those critical senators that are going to have to vote on this, bob corker, jeff flake, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and they are all going to have to decide for themselves weve reached a point where this is going to be a historical moment in the context of, you know, our society, especially in the context of the United States senate jon meachum said to me last night his test for a lot of these political figures is, okay, when people look at the oil painting on the wall, what do they think of when they see you . And these critical senators have a decision to make thats of that magnitude when it comes to judge kavanaugh. I think to circle back to Mike Barnicles point, there are legitimate questions about why does he need to be potentially confirmed by the end of the week, which is what republicans have been talking about. Well, and that is a great question it seems to me for republicans the deadline obviously would be before the november elections. The only reason you would try to rush a vote is because you are afraid more information was going to be coming out we saw that with Mitch Mcconnell last week saying were going to steam roll this over, dont worry about it, lets get this done as quickly as possible and then this weekend another accusation came out. There are reports that possibly a third accusation according to avenatti, a third accusation is going to come out. That doesnt mean that any of them are factually accurate. We dont know. It could be that theres one accusation piled on top of another accusation piled on top of another accusation but they could be. Just because there are accusations does not mean that any of them are accurate, but does mean they need to be investigated these women that are coming forward are coming forward at a great personal price to themselves and i personally find it hard to believe that anyone would put themselves on the political firing line unless they unless they believed that something terrible happened to them three decades ago, but again, what i believe, what mika believes, what you believe really doesnt change the facts. I mean, the facts will be determined by an investigation and, mike, i have absolutely no idea why the republicans cant do exactly what you just said, pump the brakes, investigate this for a couple more weeks and if they are correct and these women are lying then judge kavanaugh will be in great shape and if its an fbi investigation these women will be going to jail so the question is what are republicans afraid of if the truth is on their side joe, you just raised maybe one of the most critical aspects of this entire story and it is the human nature aspect. So now we are surrounded with allegations leveled against judge kavanaugh from two women, dr. Ford and ms. Ramirez, given how we live today, begin the culture around us we are all familiar with it with social media, you would have to be mentally ill to inject yourself into this argument and to fabricate or lie about these things you would have to be totally mentally ill because youve ruined a huge part of your life immediately. Youve ruined it youve ruined your life, youve ruined other peoples life, youve set yourself up to be absolutely ripped to shreds in the national media. So it doesnt really make an awful lot of sense but again, lets get the facts lets get the facts to the American People, we will late the senators and the people that they represent make the decisions. Steve, kasie was maybe it was me i think mika was talking about that focus group i hate to mention another network, but that cnn focus group where you had these five, six women saying were behind judge kavanaugh. It ended up they were all republican operatives. Another example of how the press has to do a better job this is important. You cant say, oh, we just have six random women here or five or six and then put them in front of a camera, then they end up being all republican operatives or former republican candidates. Well, obviously thats not a great example of journalism at its finest and but i do look, i think a couple things. Weve talked about the question of whether these women are telling the truth or not, we havent really talked about the question of what is the right standard by which the Senate Judiciary committee should judge. Obviously in a criminal situation its beyond a reasonable doubt, in a civil situation its a preponderance of the evidence. What is the standard here once we know whatever facts were going to know . By the way, i think you could send the fbi out there to investigate for a month. Youve had a whole bunch of investigative reporters out there. Its very possible theyre going to come back and we will be in the same place we are in, with one woman who has a specific remembrance, one woman maybe a little less certain, a lot of doubt around the whole situation and how are we to judge . What is supposed to be the standard by which we decide whether this guy should be on the Supreme Court . Another thing i would say, its not dis qualls in my mind, but it is having interesting as we hear more about judge kavanaughs character. There are groups of people that followed different practices and im not saying i was in the boy scouts, but there were groups on these campuses that were in heavy drinking, heavy partying and in some cases im not saying in kavanaughs case were into doing things with women that i think we would regard as inappropriate by any standard today. I think some of that has come fairly clearly out that he was part of the jail campus. Can we lean on that evidentiary standard notion for a minute as you said, theres, you know beyond a reasonable doubt is an inappropriate standard for Something Like this, this isnt a courtroom, this is Public Opinion those who have said that the burden is on this justice to prove himself a competent justice are correct, but we are not talking about how you judge cases here, your legal philosophy, we are talking about potentially criminal allegations. Even if we use a preponderance of the evidence standard, we dont meet that threshold. We dont have enough people who are corroborating this story all the named witnesses in the ramirez story say that this did not happen all the named witnesses in the ford story cannot corroborate that story i dont know what the fbi is supposed to turn up if the press is already doing this background work and cannot find anybody could crop rate these stories, both of them. At the end of the day, mika, i guess this really is something that the senators are going to be focusing on what is the standard let me tell you unfortunately what the standard is going to be even before we see the hearing. Yeah. Who presents best who is the most believable who nods their head at the appropriate time who doesnt sort of have nervous flop sweat who is best on television. Thats what this has come down to its going to be a gut instinct who do you believe of course, Mike Barnicle will remember, anybody reading history in the 1960s election will remember that people that were driving in a car listening to the Nixon Kennedy debate on the radio thought that nixon absolutely blew john kennedy away politically, rhetorically those who were watching it on tv thought kennedy blew nixon away just visually. The way he presented unfortunately, mika, were not going to be talking about a preponderance of the evidence, were not going to be talking about any standards that we carry in courtrooms or in civil or criminal cases. Its going to be who is the most convincing on television and thats unfortunately no way to pick a Supreme Court justice well, joining us now we have the chief washington correspondent for the new yorker, jane mayer, her new piece for the magazine examines the impact of russian interference and the powerful new case that it decided that decided the election were going to get to that in just a moment, but first we want to discuss, jane, your latest reporting on the new allegation against supreme Court NomineeBrett Kavanaugh. Give us, jane, if you could, a little context around ms. Ramirezs accusations, reading deeper into it were hearing that she spent some time working to remember exactly what happened and theres even some people who were, you know, helping her remember exactly who it was can you fill in the gaps here and explain her accusations context . Sure. Thank you. It is actually my reporting partner on the story, coauthor ronan farrow who spoke with her, but she did spend six days trying to make sure that she remembered this clearly enough to want to come forward and put herself into the middle of this just a brawl basically politically. She spoke with classmates to try to remember, you know talk to them about what they remembered and she had gaps in her memory, partly because it was very upsetting and she also had been drinking at the time and wasnt sure whether this was the kind of image of herself she wanted to present, but in the end she felt it was really important to come forward and she you know, i think you know, stepping back, so far the story is being defined to some extent by the white house where theres a real imbalance of power. Youve got the white house putting out its talking points, kavanaughs people putting out their talking points, you have this woman who lives in boulder, colorado, who told her story to only one place, the new yorker, and its a small megaphone compared to what shes up against here and its a scary thing to go up against this. Absolutely. Can you give us a timeline, jane, of when she decided to step forward had she been looking at the kavanaugh hearings and when did she decide to step forward or was it dr. Fords coming forward that made her decide that she would step forward as well no, actually she didnt step forward. This is the thing. We called her. We heard her name. This is a story she did not ask for this she felt once asked she had to try to search her memory to really remember and say whether there was something here but this wasnt her idea to come forward. What happened is that 35 years ago when this incident took place people talked about it and people in that yale class have been talking about it since then and there is i mean, everybody here has been talking this morning about how theres no corroboration theres a very sober background source who was not part of the party, was not drunk, heard about it either that night he thinks or the next day when i asked him myself does he remember this and is he sure that kavanaugh was the person he heard about in this, he said to me, i am 100 sure hes told hes mentioned it to other people in grad school over the years, his classmates were talking about it in july before Christine Blasey ford came forward we have looked at the emails, theyre chattering about it saying, boy, if the fbi investigates him there are going to be some stories here that are going to put an end to his nomination right so just to be clear, were not asserting anything other than what the New York Times here, let me read a couple New York Times quotes and see how it lines up with this new yorker peace. The times had interviewed several dozen people over the past week in an attempt to corroborate her story and can find no one with firsthand knowledge. Ms. Ramirez herself contacted former yale classmates asking if they recalled the incident and told some of them that she could not be certain mr. Kavanaugh was the one who exposed himself. That was the New York Times. Did she ever express any doubts to either you or ronan that it was that perhaps it was not mr. Kavanaugh, judge kavanaugh to ronan she said she wasnt absolutely certain, she needed to make certain before she was going to say anything publicly she remembered the specifics, the graphic specifics, it was very upsetting to her, and she tried to remember for sure who that man was who was in her face so it took her a while before she felt she was completely certain, though i have to you know, with all due respect to the New York Times, which is the best paper in america, just because they couldnt get the story and speak to her or find the person that we found who remembered it from back then, it doesnt mean its not true you know, it doesnt at any rate, you know, i think let me stop you there so who is the new yorkers corroborating witness because the times says they couldnt find a corroborating witness somebody that was in the room at the time that it happened . No, this is as we say in the story, we we spoke to the people who are alleged to have been in the room and they kept saying things like, either they didnt return the phone calls or they would say, i cant remember you know, this is why i think her call for the fbi is a good idea because sometimes somebody that people might say to a reporter is different from what they might say to an fbi officer. Exactly when they are in danger of perjury charges. I think its a good idea its a hard thing. We tried very hard to put across what we do know, what we dont know, what the crossfire of allegations are. Its all transparent in the story. Right. You know, we tried to be completely forthright about it. Right and, jane, thats the thing. The way its written and the way things unfold, you can tell there is a woman struggling to remember exactly what happened, theres nobody in the room that wants to go on the record and corroborate it, and yet this is something according to the story that was talked about at the time, that was emailed around after judge kavanaughs name came up for the Supreme Court and, kasie hunt, jane is exactly right and, again, we dont know what the truth s thats why were saying there needs to be an fbi investigation, but people will say one thing to a reporter, they will say quite another to an fbi agent and of course the fbi they are not the super cops, but they do, of course, have the ability to say tell me the truth or else you may be going to jail well, and as special counsel bob mueller and the fbi agents working with him are busily demonstrating, if you lie to Law Enforcement bad things happen. It is a bad plan and i think everybody realizes that its more significant obviously i think, you know, when theyre speaking with jane everybody wants to be honest in their conversations but i certainly have a feeling i would be more careful and specific about recollections of any party i may or may not have attended in college jane, i also wanted to ask you about something thats a little bit farther down in your story but that im wondering may not, you know, be something that resurfaces over the course of the next few days. You report that you spoke to somebody about mark judge who dr. Ford alleges was the other person in the room when the assault, her assault, took place. He is describing incidents with perhaps many women in the context of the georgetown days i was just hoping you could kind of walk through what your reporting is on that and give us context about why you thought that was important. Okay. So mark judge, as you say, is the other man, he was at the time a teenager, who according to Christine Blasey ford was in the room with her when she charges she was assaulted sexually by Brett Kavanaugh. So hes the pivotal witness really at this point what happened was i actually received a call from mark judges former girlfriend, college girlfriend, who said, and shes on the record here, her name is elizabeth razor, and she was at Catholic University with him and she said i feel a moral obligation to correct the record here. What hes saying about how theres no way that this could have happened because they only knew boys, they only rough housed with boys, there were no girls basically in their lives, she said mark judge told me that he i dont want to say too anything too scuzzy on television, but told me that he had sex when she was at Georgetown Prep with some of his friends all with the same drunk woman at the same time my god. Shes saying this on the record and she is a teacher now and she said i wouldnt betray confidences ordinarily, but i felt it was just too important and i needed to say theres another picture of Georgetown Prep social life than the one that he painted and he knows that well, jane, i want to thank you for your reporting and for you and ronan also, you know, really being able to get these facts put together, along with ms. Ramirezs concerns and accusations. I want to move to your russia piece because apparently all you do is work how russia helped swing the election for trump tell us about your reporting there. This is actually just its a piece thats based on a new book called cyber bar by Kathleen Hall jameson who is the head of the Annenberg Center on Public Policy at penn. Its an interesting book she goes sort of where others have feared to tread shes gone back over the 2016 campaign, looked at all of the data, shes got polls of her own and all kinds of analysis and concluded that as she said to me that she doesnt think trump would be president without the help of the russian interference in the election. All right jane mayer, thank you very much for being on this morning. We really appreciate t a lot going on. Thank you. And still ahead on morning joe, Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein denies the ex below testify New York Times report that he discussed a plan to remove the president from office we will bring in one of the reporters behind that story, Michael Schmidt. Youre watching morni jngoe. Youre watching morning joe. Michael schmidt. Hey allergy muddlers. Are you one sneeze away from being voted out of the carpool . Try zyrtec®. Its starts working hard at hour one. And works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. Stick with zyrtec® and muddle no more®. Wat t. Rowe price, hundreds of our experts go beyond the numbers to examine Investment Opportunities firsthand. Like a biotech firm that engineers a patients own cells to fight cancer. This is strategic investing. Because your investments deserve the full story. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Over the weekend allies of President Trump threatened to issue new subpoenas demanded a Second Special counsel and even warned the president of a setup, all in reaction to one New York Times report, that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein discussed wearing a wire to secretly record considerations with President Trump and discussed invoking the 25th amendment to oust him in the days after fbi director james comey was fired in may of 2017 this led senator Lindsey Graham to renew his calls for a special prosecutor to look into russia probe and the president s boosters on fox news warned him. Theres a bureaucratic coup against President Trump being discovered here before the election the people in question tried to taint the election, tip it to clintons favor, after the election theyre trying to undermine the president. I dont know what rosenstein did, but i know what mccabe or page instructed, they tried to destroy this president rosenstein is doing the country a great disservice by not appointing a special counsel to look at all of this. I have a message for the president tonight, under zero circumstances should the president fire anybody i have multiple sources confirming this and more information coming they are hoping and praying that the president does just that is Rod Rosenstein going to be indicted and is he looking to be fired . So, mika, a couple things first of all, sean hannity and Jeanine Pirro both saying this is a setup, that the deep state wants trump to fire rosenstein and did not take the bait. Secondly, i do not know how my friend Lindsey Graham could say with a straight face because i had a judge in torts class that would say if you can make an argument for a jury, its got to pass the straight face test you have to make the argument in front of a mirror and if you start laughing, dont make it in front of a jury. Lindsey should have done that before going on fox news and saying that the fbi was furiously trying to elect Hillary Clinton before the election when, in fact, you had mccabe leaking damaging stories about the Clinton Foundation to the wall street journal, and then you had james comey, the fbi director, ten days before the election putting out a letter that was absolutely devastating to Hillary Clinton and put out in such a way that the only thing you could do would be severely damage Hillary Clintons president ial hopes, even the trump team said there is no way they could have won that election without comey stepping in. So, again, i dont know who listens to that, i dont know who believes it, but more to the point i dont know why Lindsey Graham would even say it, its ridiculous. Est that the Biggest Surprise there. Michael schmidt, lets bring you in here. What a long strange trip its been for you, youre hated by kraits throughout the campaign, youre hated by republicans everyone hates you. No, during the Trump Presidency liberals have loved him, conservatives have hated him because hes writing true stories about donald trump then this crazy twist over the weekend where liberals are on your back again because you write a story about Rod Rosenstein and liberals are saying he was just being sarcastic. Tell me with all of your reporting, with all of your information when we talked about wearing a wire and talked about a vote on the 25th amendment with donald trump was Rod Rosenstein being sarcastic thats not what the depth and breadth of our reporting showed. It showed that in the meeting rosenstein had been asked whether he was joking, he said he was not, and then raised a new prospect of wiring up fbi agents who were going into the oval office to meet with the president about being the next director also no push back from the Justice Department on whether the comment about the 25th amendment was sarcastic. What sort of gets lost in all of the noise around this story is the simple fact that in may of 2017, less than four months into Donald Trumps time in office, senior officials at the top of the Justice Department were talking about the 25th amendment as a way of removing him from office. Michael, on that point, Rod Rosenstein is a very smart guy, he is an accomplished guy, he has been around a while. The 25th amendment is such a huge hurdle in terms of proof, evidentiary material even if he tapes the president of the United States in the oval office, i mean, it had to occur to him that this was nearly an impossible feat. Thats one aspect of this story that id like you to comment on, and the other aspect, if you could comment on, is how long have you and adam goldman been working on this piece . It didnt appear to me that the piece all of a sudden popped up last week. So go ahead. Weve been trying to understand the period of time in may of 2017, its a an eightday period, between the comey firing and the appointment of mueller in many ways it was the time that time forgot because it ends with mueller being appointed, the story goes in a new direction, not a lot of time at least in history books and since then has been given to that. So what was going on inside the Justice Department then . Well, Rod Rosenstein had been thrust into the national spotlight. He had been a long time u. S. Attorney up until that point, he had only been the Deputy Attorney general for two weeks and he was really struggling, he was emotional, he was unnerved, people said that he really was struggling in the moment to figure out what to do and in that period of time he threw out these different things, he threw out the idea of wearing a wire, he talks about the 25th amendment. This sort of captures the chaos going on inside the Justice Department as they moved towards what is the ultimate decision, which was to appoint mueller so, mike, it sounds like the man was overmatched by history at the time, perhaps he has grown into his job, but at the time it sounds like he was overmatched because what a bush league move to wear a wire to try to build up to the 25th amendment without realizing you need twothirds of the vote in both houses to push a president out. There was no way republicans in the house or republicans in the senate would all go along with that so was he just in over his head at the beginning during that time period . Well, to understand rosenstein here you have to understand that he was being sharply criticized for his role in the comey firing. He had written this memo that outlined how comey had been too harsh on Hillary Clinton in the way he handled the email investigation. That had been used as the white houses basis to explain the firing that comes out and rosenstein is getting crushed in the press he throws out these different ideas, its a chaotic eight weeks, and in terms of history, the ultimate decision he makes is to appoint mueller. We will figure out decades from now whether that was the right thing to do, but in the end that is the most tangible thing that we know he does coming out of that period of time. All right Michael Schmidt, thank you very, very much. Michael, we hope you find friends in the coming week. You will find friends. I need to hes good all right. Coming up, President Trump fires off another shot in the trade battle with china. The big impacts from nebraska to beijing next on morning joe. And we want to mention that we were in philadelphia with leaders from Independence Blue Cross also our friends at comcast for a very special know your value workshop we worked all day with leaders at ibc on negotiating skills, communicating effectively, basically how to raise your game and its clear that dan hilferty is looking to retain great talent to grow his leaders and we were honored to be there. Our thanks to Independence Blue Cross for a very special know ur value event. It was really great. We will be right back [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. The riskiest job. The consequences underwater can escalate quickly. The next thing i know, she swam off with the camera. Its like, hey, thats mine i want to keep doing what i love. Thats the retirement plan. With my annuity i know theres a guarantee. Annuities can provide protected income for life. Learn more at retireyourrisk. Org so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. On the campaign trail i used to always talk about the fact that wages werent going up for people they were down from 20 years ago, and people had one job. Now they were working two and three jobs and they were making less money. I have good news for you it was Just Announced that wages for the first time in many years for people in the United States have gone up im so happy about that. That means youre working hard, but youre making more money and thats going to continue so congratulations spend your money well. So, over the weekend President Trump announced that wages are quote rising for the very first time in many years. Steve rattner is charting that for us he has some questions. And also joining the conversation we have Fortune Magazine senior editoratlarge Leigh Gallagher. Well get to that in just a moment first, steve, take us through your chart is the president correct well, like most things it is not completely factually correct. Lets look at a couple of chart. First, lets look at the chart of whats happened to nominal wages which is wages before you adjust for inflation what you can see here is what the president is talking about, which is this little jiggle up these last couple of years if you look at it in Historical Context its a small jiggle. Thats before inflation. Lets look at after inflation. What youll see there is a different picture. What you see there, in fact, wages have been rising more slowly under trump than under obama. And that is in part because of inflation. So under trump wages have only gone up, they were flat in june, flat in july they were flat, up a little bit in august but all told only up. 3 a year under trump as opposed to obama its a worse situation than it was under obama. Then lets look at a couple of other interesting things first some new data that came out about whats happened to different strata of our society. Not surprisingly the top 10 of americans have actually done pretty well. You see that the 50th percentile, the median here you see the top has done pretty well you see interestingly enough the bottom has done pretty well. What you also see the middle has not done very well the top we know why thats happened the bottom has happened because of substantial increases in minimum wages by quite a number of states. Threat middle class, many who voted for trump worse off or not better off than before lastly one other thing steve, let me stop you there. That sounds like good news we often hear the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer if you go back to the Obama Administration and to the first 19 months of the Trump Administration, actually americans overall have seen their prospects improving, if you look at that chart, looks like they have been improving quite a bit, the 90 over the past eight, nine years yes, over the past eight, nine years the top 10 of americans, 90 percentile have improved the bottom 10 have improved because of minimum wage increases in 17 states and another eight to come. But the people who have been left behind are the people in the mid tell 50 percentile who are sitting in the same place they were back at the beginning. Not to be difficult because you know i would never be difficult with your charts but if you start in 2013 looking at the chart lets put the chart back up there. If you start in 2013 and look at those trend lines in the last three years of the Obama Administration and the first year and a half of the Trump Administration, wouldnt most countries absolutely love to have trim lines like that . Our wages certainly have gone up by more than they have in other countries, but one, youre coming off this bottom down here at the depths of the recession so you obviously are going to climb back when the dust settles from beginning to end, the top and bottom have done reasonably well up a few Percentage Points often years. Not a lot. The middle has gotten back to where they were in 2009 at a time when the stock market has roughly doubled. You tell me who the inners and losers are there i have one more chart if you want to take a quick look at trumps claim People Holding multiple jobs. I know the public narrative is that most people are holding multiple jobs. The data doesnt tell you that it tells you the number of People Holding multiple jobs peaked back in 1996, 1997 and has been going down ever since and hasnt done much of anything in the last few years. Another case of an exaggeration by our president you know, leigh, as we look at these charts i get lost when numbers are mentioned. But eyesight would seem to tell you that there is at least more confidence in the American Economic scene today among people than has been in the past several years. Absolutely there is the economy is booming getting back to wages, if you pull the camera back further, wage growth has been very, very slow in this recovery. Its lagged everything else. Its one of the mystery, productivity the other mystery why has this not kept up the most recent one employment report wages are up. Maybe it will take cloninger economists say maybe technology has changed the job landscape. If you look even further, you know, the average the median worker wage adjusted for inflation has not changed that much steve mentioned theres this kind of tale of two cities happening. The average ceo makes 270 times the average worker and that was 27 times in 1980 so theres been a real disparity there. Thats something economists are trying to figure out leigh, stay with us coming up a second woman comes forward to accuse Supreme Court come knee Brett Kavanaugh of Sexual Misconduct. The new allegation plus the response from kavanaugh, the white house, and the Senate Judiciary committee and a new poll has democrats widening their advantage for control of congress and its being driven by women. By women and also well be asking Steve Rattner to put together some charts about how the yankees have performed against the worst team this year, the baltimore orioles. That and so much more. Thats straight ahead picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Have you lost weight . And fearlessly devours piles. Of course i have ever since i started renting from national. Because national lets me lose the wait at the counter. And choose any car in the aisle. And i dont wait when i return, thanks to drop go. Looking good, patrick. I know. vo go national. Go like a pro. Plaque psoriasis or psoriatic arthritis, Little Things can be a big deal. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not an injection or a cream. Its a pill that treats differently. For psoriasis, 75 clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. And for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. And the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. Dont use if youre allergic to otezla. Otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. Tell your doctor if these occur. Otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. Tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. Some people taking otezla reported weight loss. Your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. Other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. Tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if youre pregnant or planning to be. Otezla. Show more of you. Such a shame a person like judge kavanaugh who has a stellar record, that somebody can bring something up that dewhen avenues teenager close to 40 years ago, thats not relevant there wasnt a crime that was committed, these are two teenagers, and obviously she said no and he respected it and they walked away if thats the case but he says he didnt do it. He just flat out said thats just not true. So regardless if it was true, these are two teenagers. And he said or she said no and he respected that. So i dont know what the issue is advantage gellievangelist fr. A second woman has issued a new complaint against supreme Court NomineeBrett Kavanaugh. We have Mike Barnacle. Associate editor of commentary magazine noah rothman. Nbc news capitol hill correspondent and office of casey d. C. , kasie hunt is with us Fortune Magazine senior editoratlarge, Leigh Gallagher and joining the conversation nbc news chief Foreign Affairs correspondent and host of Andrea Mitchell reports, Andrea Mitchell. Also Political Writer for the New York Times and msnbc political analyst nick confe confessore and robert costa. A lot going on, joe, got to get to the Rod Rosenstein story. But the Brett Kavanaugh story rolls forward with more details coming out every day more details and more accusations, more questions brought up again of course, more hyper partisan attacks from both sides challenging the womens integrity, suggesting that they are liars and politically motivated. Many over the weekend on cable news convicted Brett Kavanaugh of attempted rape, and even some calling him a serial sexual predator when, in fact, none of us know what happened. Which is exactly why the fbi should be called into investigate. It happened in 1991 when george h. W. Bush respond to a request from capitol hill dean a quick had the fbi do a quick three or four day investigation on the Clarence Thomas matter with anita hill. And a lot of people asking why we shouldnt do that here because Mike Barnacle things just continue to get murkier and murkier as we move along we have a second accuser, but, again, just as many questions around the facts from three plus decades ago, in an alcohol fueled incident if you believe what were reading in these reports. And so we need somebody to sort through it and it certainly is the case that members of the Senate Judiciary committee are not capable of doing that in a straightforward nonpartisan manner joe, we talked about it easterly but the hyper partisanship that surrounding this nomination and the court is tragic of what the court ought to be in our history, what it has been so many times in the past in our history and now basically another political event instead of sorting out exactly what this man judge kavanaugh may or may not be on the court. We have the charges levelled by dr. Ford and miss ramirez, both of them have to be legitimately heard. You have to be, again, as we spoke about earlier, both women would have to be mentally ill to have injected themselves into such a process the way they are now participating in the process. But the larger tragedy is the politicalization of the Supreme Court. I guess it began with bob bork in the middle of the 1980s but the Supreme Court is supposed to be different its a lifetime appointment. It affects every american in its rulings and it was isolated from politics and that sadly is no longer the case. Well it is a lifetime appointment. The idea that we have to rush forward and get a vote on kavanaugh this week, it is ridiculous i certainly understand republicans on the committee being angry, feeling like theyve been played, they went through the process. Dianne feinstein held this letter for several months or other democrats did. Started a s if voters want to take that out on democrats they can. Right now it hurts nobody and it helps the American People get information for an investigation at least over the next week or two and, again, maybe nothing comes of that investigation and it ends up just being a show trial with senators choosing their sides and americans choosing their sides based on ideology, but at least we should try to get more facts to the American People, and to voters who are going to be voting on a lot of these a lot of these senators that are going to be up for election come the fall that are going to have a vote andrea, weve been talking an awful lot about a story you covered, Clarence Thomas and anita hill i got to tell you, this reminds me more of what happened with john tower i covered that. Yeah. A few years before but i know there were a lot of people in washington, d. C. Saying wait a second youre not going to let a guy be sucked out because he drinks and he acts the way a lot of people in washington, d. C. Act that was a game changer for the late 80s. But now it seems that were doing the same thing for how bluntly back in the 1980s a lot of High School Students conducted themselves at elite private prep schools we are. The problem is memories fade and alcohol is involved. But as you point out whats the rush there is no question that if they waited and had the fbi look into it, and they could do it in a matter of days not weeks or months, that they could get people to at least be on the record and theres one key witness on the first accusation, of course, which is mark judge and he has refused to talk to anyone hes refused to be on the record if he were placed with an fbi agent, an experienced interrogator under threat of perjury and real ramifications that would be important. But hes not even being called by the committee why not he was there he was there he also he has written enough to raise serious questions about the practices of himself and people around him. Why would he not be the first witness that you would call other than the two accusers . Well, because they are afraid of the answers clearly, because the republicans in charge dont know what to expect from this. You know, we know mr. Oconnell did not want judge kavanaugh to be the nominee, didnt think he was as easily confirmed because of his paper trail then they changed the procedures that had been historically followed to permit him to go forward without all of the archives being released. He had a very long paper trail he was in the Bush Administration then you have the whole question of not calling witnesses there is no reason why, even in the very flawed thomashill hearings which ive written was the worst experience ive ever had as a correspondent covering congress more than anything else, it was just that searing for them to not say that other witnesses could be brought in, even then they had some 23 kwns for a witnesses. That is forever a dark mark on the Senate JudiciaryCommittee Hearing process. The fact is they could bring people in. They could bring people in, mika its very obvious that the chairman of the Judiciary Committee grassley does not want to open the door to judge, who definitely under any basic Fact Finding Mission judge would be brought in to testify. Fords husband, who has working knowledge of this, has very personal knowledge of her talking about this for some time would be brought in. The therapist, who heard these complaints going back five, six, seven, eight years, would be brought in again, not to convict kavanaugh yep but to give everybody on that committee, everybody voting in the senate, and americans a better understanding of the claims that dr. Ford has made through the years long before judge kavanaughs name came up for the Supreme Court. Look, this possibility that you raise very real that this could be the proper way to conduct an investigation through the weeks. Inside the Judiciary Committee. They are taking thei other players at this time. Were in a very fragile moment for judge kavanaughs nomination. The judiciaryh committee and mm chairman grassley are looking to the white house. What is the president s stand. Recently tough vote for senators who are going to face voters this fall. Three senators that really matter as of 7 00 this morning, senator mckos ski, senator flake and senator collins is this second accuser credible in their eyes. Do they step forward and say one too much time to pull the nomination and if not they say wef need more time perhaps eve in anrh fbi investigation whicho far they have resisted calling for. Bob,re based on your reporti, the democrats, the four, five democrats that two weeks ago were considering voting for kavanaugh are they now solid nos. Id you can feel the pressure off their shoulders lifting over recent days and last night when this new yorker story published democratic sources was saying this puts them in an easier position to vote against judge kavanaughs nomination. Donald trump never really trustedd kavanaugh, he was a bh insider. Mitch mcconnell didnt want kavanaugh in there. Those areva the two most imports political life. Is there a chance that either one of them will waiver and say this just isnt worth it you look at the generic ballot, republicans are getting pounded. Theres not a gender gap, theres a gender gulf, almost 25 points between women supporting democrats to republicans. Men within the margin of error, is there still time for are mitche mckeown delto tell dona trump this isnt worth losing the senateis over, lets try to rush another nominee through between nowom and the time democrats take control in early january, if that happens . This is all on Mitch Mcconnells plate right now. It will be his decision. Based on my reporting the president has maintained kavanaugh should be pusheds through, he wants to stand by kavaferendum on his own politic capital. Mcconnell ista motivated as wel. Mcconnell is about the votes. He cant bring something to the floor if he doesnt that have votes. Theres a division already in the gop about the short list. Will it be judge barrett of indiana, or a mcconnell favorite from kentucky. Theres not a consensus favorite onco the plan b list at this ti. Leigh gallagher, were lookinger at bobs headline and the concerns that the gender gap forge republicans could be worsened given this kavanaugh story. Again, i wonder why they dont just atth this point ask for an fbi investigation. They can wait a little bit. I think it would probably help politically but also in terms of trying to bear out the facts here, what could they have to lose i think t youre right about that,e mika. To the gender gap issue, polls are turning against kavanaughs favor. Thats before what happened last night and before michael avenatt. You had jane mayer. She said 100 stood behind those allegation. Whense kavanaughs name started circling it became a topic of conversation among these yale alumni isnt this going to be an issue. B there are people to talk to. So i think that pumping the brakes and getting to the bottom of it. Too much is at stake here. Nick confessore, the gender gap and concern for republicans facing this story and the blow back from it. Ck its a huge problem for them, mika. This has cyrystallized that people have towards the presidency ofwa donald trump. Forf more women its more fuelo the fire that they feel at the trumpt presidency, at the president s own hemisdeeds. It awakens their own experience. Many women can tell you of similar expenses in their lives, in highei school, in college, i their working lives and they understand whats at stake here for themta personally. It takes something to get someone to go out to vote in a midterm sometimes. Anger, fear, some greater ea emotion, and this fight is going to provide it for a lot of people who are probably going to vote for democrats. Noah, i want to ask you about the conservative base. Obviously,er a lot of activists conservative activists enraged by how judge kavanaugh has beenb treated, but does that spread in an off year election to a voting conservative base, or is this or is the intensity come november more likely to be seen on the democratic side surrounding this issue . Ou the intensity is more likely to bes seen on the democratic side. The good faith argument for republicans is they want to push ahead with this nomination in order to meet the Supreme Courts beginning of the session which starts on october 1. Ther bad faith argument they wt to get this over with before the midterms. Same thing applies to democrats. They want to push this off as close o to the midterms as possible. Republicans aret in as no win situation. These hearings will be bad for them. No wayad around it. Ro if they drop this nomination they will have consented to a defilement of the process and not support them if they want to get barrett on this court. We have to say, again, every person whoai is named in dr. Fords accusation cant corroborate her account. Every person named in this new yorker piece cant corroborate this c account. One person who is 100 sure is a anonymous source who is a second hand source. Rc the new yorker has not confirmed with other eyewitnesses that judge kavanaugh was present at the party. They ran withs that story. That was not sufficient for the New York Times. And, obviously, andrea, we have all of this happening. Backdrop to all of this is the explosive Rod Rosenstein story, north and south korea getting together,h talking. Theres so much going on right now. Donald trumps trade war kicking into full gear and the impact it will have. How do we sort through this . How do you sort through this . Imro not sure exactly how because youve got the iranian president here in new york. You got, of course, gridlock every where. The president today meeting with the south korean mountaon, who bringing a message. Report in the New York Times, similar to what we have also been hearing that top officials, including, up to the secretary of state concern that the t president is being too forward leaning, is too expansive, wants to proclaim victory with north korea in this speech saying a year agos when he speaks tomors the president to the general assembly, a year ago it was rocket man now we got a nuclear stand down. Well thats not the case. Theres none of. In fact, all of our reporting is that hes still building his weapons. But expanding his program. But the president is so eager for a victory here and so confident innd his personal diplomacy even though hes at odds with europe over iran and a lot of other issues that trade and tariffs in particular that i we dont even know whether hes now willing to meetow with the iranian president. Pompeo in ourn interview would not rule it out. All right. Andrea, stay with us. Robert costa thank you strch. Leigh gallagher thank you as well. Find out about the most powerful women in business in Fortune Magazine. Still ahead on morning joe from the Cincinnati Committee at the center of the Supreme Court nomination emfight, dr. Richard blumenthal previews thursdays hearing for judge Brett Kavanaugh and professor Christine Blasey ford. Plusey it took Rod Rosenstein jt days after being named Deputy Attorney general to raise serious concerns about what he was seeing within the Trump Administration. 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Aarp medicare plans, from unitedhealthcare. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Over the weekend allies of President Trump threatened to issue new subpoenas demanded a Second Special counsel, and even warned the president of a set up. All in reaction to a New York Times report that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein discussed wearing a wire to secretly record conversations with President Trump and discuss invoking the 25th amendment to oust him in the days after the fbi director james comey was fired in may of 2017. The times report is partly based off memos written by fbi officials including then Deputy DirectorAndrew Mccabe who declined to comment but denied being a source. Yesterday house Judiciary Committee chairman Bob Goodlatte set a deadline for them to turn over the documents. Matt, i want to start with you to set up our questions for senator blumenthal. Talk about the report about Rod Rosenstein discussing and using the words 25th amendment. Is the story that Rod Rosenstein potentially said that, or is it broader . Whats your gut . You know, the way i read the story it really is a sign of the turmoil that was going on in the department in those eight days after james comey was fiertd re before Robert Mueller was appointed. Its hard to imagine a Deputy Attorney general who kind of is in complete command of the situation suggesting seriously that he wear a wire, that andy mccabe or somebody else go into the oval office wear a wire or instroke 25th amendment when hes not a member of the cabinet. The Deputy Attorney general wouldnt have a role in that situation. A lot of people interpreted that to mean he wasnt being serious. Doj tried hard the to imply and put out statements he wasnt being certificate. The more accurate read of this and i base this on conversations with people at the department at the time and i think if you read closely the times story, Rod Rosenstein wasnt kind of in complete command of the situation then. He was in a lot of ways a ship without port. I think he didnt understand the ramifications of his memo after he wrote it and used the excuse to fire comey. Deeply criticized by alumni at the Justice Department. He took to it heart. He was floundering around in that week trying to figure out what to do. The answer he ultimately came up with is to appoint bob mueller but i think he was struggling during that time period and i think it comes through in the accounts of that meeting both from the Justice Department side and from the side of whoever else is talking to the times. All right. Senator blumenthal well get to the latest on the Brett Kavanaugh concerns in just a moment. But, i want to ask you about this Rod RosensteinNew York Times report because based on the behavior of the president that weve been witnessing, that ive witnessed firsthand, that ive seen and heard myself or heard from people inside the white house, what are the chances that Rod Rosenstein is the only person that uttered the words 25th amendment. There may be others who uttered those words since Rod Rosenstein spoke about it within the white house. But the 25th amendment is a very high burden to use and the kind of procedure let alone evidence thats required for the whole cabinet to go to the congress and ask for, in effect, a temporary replacement of the president , which the president can then overcome and they have to come back again, i think Rod Rosenstein was very well aware it was a cumbersome and difficult process for him to even remark about it with gist or sarcasm shows the kind of turmoil existing at the time. I recall it very well because i voted against Rod Rosenstein when he refused to commit to me as a member of the Judiciary Committee that he would appoint a special counsel. Ultimately he did. And the agenda here on the part of the Trump Administration is to subvert or sabotage that special counsel that Rod Rosenstein is in charge of the budget, the indictments, all of the charges that are brought. Hes the key figure here. Nbcs Andrea Mitchell, jump in. I also have some questions about Andrew Mccabe because he was writing the memo. It was based on his memos. He was fired by Rod Rosenstein. Hes now under investigation, according to the Inspector General. He may have committed perjury, we dont know. A grand jury is looking into him right now. One should probably take these memos with a grain of salt . They really should be taken with a grain of salt. Thats a very, very good point. That was my first reaction when i saw that Andrew Mccabe was involved. At the same time even people with questionable motives may have verifiable things to say and in this instance the point is, i think, most important that we need to protect the special counsel, and the department of justice investigation. Do you think this out of there. Is that one of the motivations. It may well be. Ultimately one of the reasons that the president will emphasize the important jan of it and why he will attack Rod Rosenstein and, of course, Jeff Sessions in the process. Senator, thursday is shaping up to be a big day in United States history when the Judiciary Committee reconvenes and will hear from dr. Ford whether or not the country believes, we will find out later. But the question i have for you that everything thats going on, the back and forth between senator grassley and various people, asking for more time, asking for a delayed process so there can be further background checks conducted by the fbi, who is more in charge of the show on the republican side . Senator grassley or Mitch Mcconnell . I wish i knew. And most of my colleagues wish they knew who is really in charge here. And if somebody who is in charge who wants to uncover the truth they will tell the white house we need an fbi investigation. These Sexual Assault survivors have come forward with tremendous courage. Yep. Knowing the nightmare of public shaming, character assassination, death threats, other kinds of jeopardy to public safety, and they are entitled to a respectful hearing, but equally important the Judiciary Committee and the u. S. Senate are entitled to an fbi investigation by trained professionals. Is the partisanship now so hyper, so exaggerated on both sides here that there are members of the Judiciary Committee who cannot figure out that we are not talking about the appointment of the post master general here, were talking about a lifetime appointment. Were talking about a lifetime appointment to the nations highest court that will make a real difference in real peoples lives for generations, literally generations to come with this appointment. And so we have a constitutional duty to get to the bottom of these allegations. They are serious, and credible, and now the person with the most knowledge about them, namely judge Brett Kavanaugh has a responsibility to come forward with evidence to rebut them. They have control over whether to have an investigation. They have control over whether mark judge is subpoenaed to testify. Whether other witnesses are required to come forward. This investigation has to bring those other witnesses before the United States senate so there needs other hearings. Senator, your colleague, senator hirono said i take his entire philosophy his judicial philosophy formed her opinion about whether or not these opinions occurred as alleged by these two excusers. This is not a court of law. The burden of evidence is not beyond a shadow of a doubt but to what extent should we apply a evidentiary standard here. Does judge kavanaugh deserve the presumption of innocence. His judicial views in forming these accusations fair and accurate and just. Great question. Lets break it down. First of all, were dealing here with a confirmation for a lifetime appointment to the nations highest court, a promotion. Were dealing with confirmation, not conviction. So the standard is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In this instance, judge kavanaugh can rebut these allegations. They are serious and credible with the kinds of evidence that is within his control. You know, theres a doctrine ever law that says the party that controls the evidence after theres a prima facie case made has a duty to come forward. Its the burden of production. You can analogize it here but theres a burden on the part of the white house to do the investigation. What are they hiding. What are they afraid the American People will see. Theres a pattern here. Because it follows his evasive and misleading testimony before the Judiciary Committee and the concealing of 2 million pages of documents that im now in court trying to uncover through. Senator richard blumenthal, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. Thank you. Coming up, donald trump is reacting to the Rod Rosenstein report, and like he did with Brett Kavanaugh hes holding his fire at least to begin with. Well show you what he said next on morning joe. 25 of your mouth. Listerine® cleans virtually 100 . Helping to prevent gum disease and bad breath. Never settle for 25 . Always go for 100. Bring out the bold™ agent beekman was one step ahead of them. Because he hid his customers gold in a different box. And the bandits, well, they got rocks. We protected your money then and were dedicated to helping protect it today. Like alerting you to certain card activity we find suspicious. 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Through internet essentials, comcast has connected more than sixmillion lowincome people to lowcost, highspeed internet at home. Im trying to do some homework here. So theyre ready for anything. In a new interview President Trump says hes not ready to comment on the Rod Rosenstein story yet. Saying he wants to get all the facts. Though he did tell the interviewer, Geraldo Rivera that Rod Rosenstein was hired by Jeff Sessions. Trump also said he has no concerns about his former Attorney Michael Cohen talking to investigators. Asked if hes worried about potential fallout trump said no im not because im an honest guy and that stuff is unrelated to me. And that was michael did that stachb michael, i mean, you know, you know i have many, many lawyers. I have very big lawyer firms that do my work. On what cohen could offer that would be problematic for him trump said i dont know anything because ill be honest i do everything straight. I do everything straight. Matt miller, if only he did this would be a much simpler world that we all lived in. But i will say, donald trump, both with kavanaugh up until last week, and in interviews like this, pulling back a little bit from his usual rhetorical bombs. Yeah. Its a little strange. I think with the Rod Rosenstein thing he cant quite figure out what to do. If you look at his relationship with rod, its gone up and down. Last summer he was suggests on twitter he might fire him. Last month he told the New York Times he said hes fantastic referring to Rod Rosenstein. The reference in that interview to he would fire Jeff Sessions, its not great. The bigger problem for him, though, when you look at how he might react to this Rod Rosenstein story. He wants to end the mueller investigation. Hes looked around for a way to do it. He can fire Rod Rosenstein. Its very difficult for the president to accomplish the next step of that process which is to put someone in overseeing Robert Mueller who would even find it possible, even if they wanted to do it would find it possible to end this investigation or curtail it. Its very difficult for the president to pull it off especially because the people around him, john kelly, they dont want to go anywhere near that. No way they will help him execute an act of obstruction of justice. Even donald trump remembers what happened when he fired james comey. He and Jared Kushner pushing for the firing of comey. It led to the worst of all possibilities and that wasnt an investigation run by Robert Mueller. Firing comey was the single worst decision the president has made in office. It has caused him huge amounts of grief and may end his presidency some day. I think that if he fires if he keeps massacring Justice Department, if he fires more people, were pledged sorry pushed instantly into a constitutional crisis. It will mean instant confirmation if he makes that push and takes that next step. Thats the reason why hes held back. If he goes in that direction, just forget about it. Forget about nominations, forget about policy, its going to be a knife fight to the end. Of course, mika, the last thing that donald trump or republican senators or Republican House members in districts won by Hillary Clinton can afford right now is balancing a kavanaugh nomination fight as well as the firing of Rod Rosenstein. A constitutional crisis that would be talk about an october surprise, it would be an october surprise most likely breaking against republicans across the country. Matt miller, thank you very much. Up next, she served in two different cabinet level positions and now runs a major university. The first woman to hold that job, Silvia Burwell joins us with her new groundbreaking project next on morning joe. And fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Its a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. If you move your old 401 k to a fidelity ira, we make sure youre in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. Oh and at fidelity, youll see how all your investments are working together. Because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. Just remember what i said about a little bit o soul things re just clearer. Cal we saved our money and now, we get to spend it our way. Valerie but we worry if we have enough to last. Cal ellen, our certified financial planner™ professional, helps us manage our cash flow and plan for the unexpected. Valerie her experience and training gave us the courage to go for it. Its our confident forever plan. Cal . And its all possible with a cfp® professional. Find your certified financial planner™ professional at letsmakeaplan. Org. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. A poll came out. They said everybody is going out in 2020 because they want to vote for you, they want to vote for the president , but they may not be coming out in 2018. Get out in 2018 because youre vote forge me in 2018. Joining us now is the president of American University sylvia burwell. She served as both secretary of health and human services, and director of the office of management and budget under president obama. Tomorrow is the launch of American Universitys Sine Institute of policy and politics. And one of the key focuses of the institute is the role regionalism plays in americas political discourse. What great timing, sylvia, to open up this great institute. Were excited to get it started. Thank you so much for having us. We believe that starting that and focusing conversations on the sub stastantive issues is extremely important. Talk about the idea, where it came from and what you hope to accomplish. What we hope to accomplish is to convene, collaborate and communicate in a way that is a nonpartisan way. We hope our students, scholars and practitioners can come together and shape policy as well as the leaders of tomorrow. Hi, sylvia, good to see you again. As someone whos worked in government at such a high level and now in academiacademia. You have inaccuracies in so many different venues including the white house. I think thats why the Sine Institute is so important to get that focus of the conversation bringing together people with different points of view as well as from different areas so we can focus on the substance and the facts and communicate about that, create the right dialogue to create a less partisan situation that is grounded in facts and substance. Thats what the Sine Institute is about. Sylvia, the details of the institute, is it going to be like the institute of politics at harvard . Are you going to have fellows who come . Can students at american u partake in courses and get degree credit . Yes. What we want to do is take the best of the institutes around the country, whether thats institute of politics at harvard and chicago. Fellows will be from different areas come together. They will have students coming to attend seminars and sessions. Well also convene conversations like the one were going to have tomorrow to kick off the institute. That is with bob corker. A conversation about a range of issues Like National security, an important focus as were going into the week of the United Nations general assembly. Thank you so much for being on this morning. We really appreciate it. Thank you all for having me. Andrea, i would ask you what you were going to have on Andrea Mitchell reports today, but it would take you about 30 minutes to do that. Instead, why dont we talk about what do you expect to be the headline out of the u. N. Week in new york . I think it will be with iran, iran and north korea. The president wants to focus on weapons and thats all about iran and whether or not he meets with the president of iran, thats a possibility now. Whether or not we come back from the brink of all these charges and counter charges with iran as he did with north korea. So the president s diplomacy, personal diplomacy really front and center here. Still ahead, a new Sexual Assault accusation against supreme Court NomineeBrett Kavanaugh. Well talk to one of the writers behind that new report. Meanwhile, calf naus first kavanaughs first accuser is set to testify thursday. Set to testify thursday. [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. When the guy in frontd down the highway and fearlessly devours piles. Slams on his brakes out of nowhere. You do, too, but not in time. Hey, no big deal. Youve got a good record and Liberty Mutual wont hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. You hear that, karen . Liberty mutual doesnt hold grudges. How mature of them. For drivers with accident forgiveness Liberty Mutual wont raise their rates because of their first accident. Liberty mutual insurance. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty there is a chance thats the last time. 300 miles per hour, thats where i feel normal. I might be crazy but im not stupid. Having an annuity tells me retirement is protected. Annuities can provide protected income for life. Learn more at retireyourrisk. Org so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. In the very near future, judge kavanaugh will be on the United StatesSupreme Court. So, my friends, keep the faith, dont get rattled by all of this. Were going to plow right through it and do our job. Well, last week according to the new yorker senior republican staffers learned of a second Sexual Assault misconduct allegation against Brett Kavanaugh. On friday, Mitch Mcconnell pledged to, quote, plow right through. Good morning and welcome to morning joe. It is monday, september 24th and with us we have msnbc contributor Mike Barnicle, associate editor of commentary magazine and msnbc contributor noah rothman, former treasury official and morning joe economic analyst Steve Rattner and nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of kasie d. C. On msnbc kasie hunt is with us. As the Supreme Court story unfolds this week its important to keep tabs on a number of other big developments. We will speak with the New York Times reporter who broke the news that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein talked about wearing a wire to record donald trump. Michael schmidt has the details right ahead. Plus leaders gather in new york city for the u. N. General assembly, with President Trump taking part in several events throughout the day. We will bring you the first live right here on morning joe. Meanwhile, the president s personal lawyer, not secretary of state, Rudy Giuliani, says irans government will be overthrown. Nikki haley reminds everyone that is not u. S. Policy. And with six weeks left, joe, its a 12 point spread, democrats lead republicans by double digits with nearly 60 calling for a significant course correction away from donald trump. We will have all the latest numbers, but the polls are fascinating this morning, joe. They are. Also we have we have the new yorker coauthor of that story on kavanaugh, jane mayer will be here later. I want to go to kasie hunt just for one second. We have so much in front of us, obviously so much at stake for republicans and democrats this week. Of course, we want them to do the right thing. We want them to search for the facts. We want justice to prevail, whichever way that what direction that goes, but at the same time theyre looking at polls and this latest poll thats out, one more example of just what largely democrats are having in the latest generic congressional ballot test, now up to 12 points. Weve seen other polls that way. How does that impact what republicans do this week and over the next month . Well, joe, i think each republican senator has to think about this in the broad context of this poll on the generic ballot as you point out, also their personal circumstances of the Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski plan to stay in the senate, they are the two to watch. Broadly republicans have a decision to make here. You can already see the fault lines starting to develop. You have i had one Top Republican aide send me a paragraph from the New York Times story off of the new yorker story looking at how they had trouble finding somebody who had a firsthand account that lined up with mrs. Ramirezs story that she told in the new yorker. I can feel it sort of trending potentially away to a hardening of positioning for republicans, but it still were only a couple hours into this still and its a real question in my mind if this is something thats going to ultimately pull republicans together, harden them, make them want to fight for Brett Kavanaugh or if this could be the beginning of the end of his confirmation. Well, you know, mika, certainly i would think that its hardened the position of democrats who were considering supporting Brett Kavanaugh. I think thats thats one take away. I dont think we will see the four, five, six democrats that were considering crossing over doing that now. No. Theyre most likely hard nosed. This really does bring it down to jeff flake, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski. And now, of course, another accusation coming out last night from the new yorker. Yeah, lets go there. Supreme Court NomineeBrett Kavanaugh issued a stern denial last night to a second allegation of Sexual Misconduct. This time as a College Student. The new yorker magazine reports that Senate Democrats are investigating a claim from Debra Ramirez who says kavanaugh pulled down his pants and exposed himself to her during their freshman year at Yale University. In the last week three sources familiar with the accusation told nbc about ramirezs claim. Ramirez, 53, is the same age as kavanaugh and they both graduated from the university in 1987. She referred nbc to her lawyer who did not respond to our request for comment. Last nights report says that in her initial conversations with the new yorker she was reluctant to characterize kavanaughs role in the alleged incident with certainty. Quoting from the article which includes graphic details, after six days of carefully assessing her memories and consulting with her attorney, ramirez says that she felt confident enough of her recollections to say that she remembers kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party, thrust his penis into her face and caused her to touch it without her consent as she pushed him away. She is calling for the fbi to investigate. The New York Times reports they interviewed several dozen people over the past week in an attempt to corroborate ramirezs story and could not find no one with firsthand and could find no one with firsthand knowledge. The white house distributed kavanaughs response, quote, this alleged event from 35 years ago did not happen. The people who knew me then know that this did not happen and have said so. This is a smear, plain and simple. Mike barnicle, my god, this has become such an absolute mess and im sure you spoke to friends this weekend like i spoke to friends this weekend and we always hear about how tribal everything is. What was remarkable was the complaints and the criticisms, where a stream of consciousness and one moment they were attacking republicans for accusing this woman of being or these two women of being liars, politically motivated, the next they were expressing their concerns about all those on the other side that have already convicted kavanaugh as an accused rapist or somebody i saw this weekend was talking about being a serial sexual predator. Weve got alcoholaltered memories, over three decades, we do have serious allegations. Serious allegations and it seems to me that both sides at this point should want the fbi to come in and investigate. Oh, absolutely. We are not going nobody nobody knows what happened. It needs to be pieced together. Even those who are making the allegations, again, their memories are altered over 30 years and alcohol was involved, i believe, in both cases. Why wouldnt republicans want the fbi to investigate if they think their man is innocent . Joe, there is so much going on in this story that we could spend the rest of the morning and all day today and tomorrow talking about it, but the first point is the one you just raised, given the extraordinary nature of the circumstances surrounding this, the charges by dr. Ford, the charges as leveled by new York Magazine by mrs. Ramirez, it is insane not to pump the brakes on this process, to take a breather, to have the fbi investigate the background as well as they can. I mean, it was years ago, this happened years ago according to both women, but just to take a look at it afresh. And the other aspect of this story and there are so many we begin this program this morning talking about polls. What has happened within the Supreme Court story is a twotrack story. Its got to affect certain congressional candidacies in certain districts across the country. Are you for judge kavanaugh or not. Thats got to be a legitimate question now in many campaigns. The other aspect of it that is truly dangerous, truly threatening is the incredible hyper partisanship now surrounding the Supreme Court of the United States. These are lifetime appointments, youre supposed to look at the law as a neutral observer and decide on the basis of the law not partisanship and yet partisanship has always been there in the Supreme Court, but the hyper partisanship today is truly, truly dangerous. It really is on both sides. I did myself a favor this weekend and got off twitter as much as i could because, my god, there are so many on the left and some former republicans from the right just making terrible accusations about judge kavanaugh, one saying that hes a serial sexual predator, and then on the right we have some people that you and i know who have spent the last two weeks nonstop calling these women liars. The partisanship is so out of control when none of us really know what happened on those two nights. Right. Twitter doesnt really foster an environment of sobriety, it kind of rewards you going to level 11. So im not exactly surprised by that reaction. But as we said over the course of this segment, the story in the new yorker questions itself on several occasions, cant put Brett Kavanaugh in the room, notes that the story as alleged is something that the allegations were made after six days of interrogating her on memories with the help of her attorney which is itself something thats a little suspicious considering that ramirez according to the New York Times told her friends that she wasnt sure whether Brett Kavanaugh was there or not. People are saying that the fbi probably has a role in this i think are probably correct, i think they should say that the president should ask the fbi to beef up the background investigations, the six of which that judge kavanaugh underwent over the course of his many confirmations, but the fbi is not the super Serious Police. They have a jurisdiction, they cant just investigate everything because somebody says, look, my memory is a little foggy here, id really like the fbi step in and help beef it up. Thats not how this works. Those saying that we need more information here are correct, but anybody who is leaping to conclusions is doing so i think for politically motivated reasons. We dont have enough information to draw a conclusion about either of these incidents. What we have are two very serious accusations and we have two sides to a story that were trying to cover and, kasie hunt, i think its not just twitter, its the media thats in a very serious position right now and if you watch, you know, 24hour coverage of this story you may see four or five analysts in a row being brought on to convict judge kavanaugh. Theres a need for balance here because the more that you put one side on or if you have a focus group with republican operatives in it, you know, pushing the other side of the story. There are allegations here, they are not proven. There is the law and there is a push for an investigation. These are the parts that we need to report, but if were not careful, if the media as a whole is not careful covering this story, were feeding into that very negative narrative that President Trump himself really drums up in his base and that is fake news. Right now all we have are two serious accusations that are not proven. Is that fair . Am i correct . The bar is always high for the media to get the story right, but in a case like this where there is so much at stake, there are so many strong emotions and frankly the stakes are so incredibly high, you know, we all have a duty to the American People, to the viewers, to the readers that we are all serving every day to make sure that we are getting it right, first and foremost, and that also, yes, that there is a fairness being applied across the board. I think politically speaking when you start to dig into that democrats are more concerned about fairness towards dr. Ford and ms. Ramirez in this case and republicans to judge kavanaugh. I was talking to one source of mine who used to work on these nominations inside the Senate Judiciary committee and he is a republican, but he was saying that, you know, we have become so polarized and tribal as a country, you know, we shouldnt what party you are a member of shouldnt dictate whether you believe judge kavanaugh or you believe dr. Ford. We should be able to listen to what both of them have to say, they are saying opposite things essentially, and think through it and come to a logical conclusion, but that is not how this is playing out. Its playing out as you are digging in in your tribal camp on one side or the other and there are a handful of people in the middle that are the ones that really matter and they are those critical senators that are going to have to vote on this, bob corker, jeff flake, Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski. And they are all going to have to decide for themselves. Weve reached a point where this is going to be a historical moment in the context of, you know, our society, especially in the context of the United States senate. Jon meachum said to me last night his test for a lot of these political figures is, okay, when people look at the oil painting on the wall, what do they think of when they see you . And these critical senators have a decision to make thats of that magnitude when it comes to judge kavanaugh. I think to circle back to Mike Barnicles point, there are legitimate questions about why does he need to be potentially confirmed by the end of the week, which is what republicans have been talking about. Up next, well talk the new yorkers jane mayer who broke the story alleging Sexual Misconduct against Brett Kavanaugh. Y allegt against Brett Kavanaugh. Aning c, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. To take care of yourself. But natures bounty has innovative ways to help you maintain balance and help keep you active and wellrested. Because hey, tomorrows coming up fast. Natures bounty. Because youre better off healthy. A hotel can make or break a trip. And at expedia, we dont think you should be rushed into booking one. Thats why we created expedias addon advantage. Now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. 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This is moving day with the best andinhome wifi experiencees. And millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. And this is moving day with Reliable Service appointments in a twohour window so youre up and running in no time. Show me decorating shows. This is staying connected with xfinity to make moving. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and twohour appointment windows. Click, call or visit a store today. Well, joining us now we have the chief washington correspondent for the new wo workyorker jane mayer. Give us, jane, if you could, a little context around ms. Ramirezs accusations, reading deeper into it were hearing that she spent some time working to remember exactly what happened and theres even some people who were, you know, helping her remember exactly who it was. Can you fill in the gaps here and explain her accusations context . Sure. Thank you. It is actually my reporting partner on the story, coauthor ronan farrow who spoke with her, but she did spend six days trying to make sure that she remembered this clearly enough to want to come forward and put herself into the middle of this just a brawl basically politically. She spoke with classmates to try to remember, you know talk to them about what they remembered and she had gaps in her memory, partly because it was very upsetting and she also had been drinking at the time and wasnt sure whether this was the kind of image of herself she wanted to present, but in the end she felt it was really important to come forward and she you know, i think you know, stepping back, so far the story is being defined to some extent by the white house where theres a real imbalance of power. Youve got the white house putting out its talking points, kavanaughs people putting out their talking points, you have this woman who lives in boulder, colorado, who told her story to only one place, the new yorker, and its a small megaphone compared to what shes up against here and its a scary thing to go up against this. Absolutely. Can you give us a timeline, jane, of when she decided to step forward . Had she been looking at the kavanaugh hearings and when did she decide to step forward or was it dr. Fords coming forward that made her decide that she would step forward as well . No, actually she didnt step forward. This is the thing. We called her. We heard her name. This is a story she did not ask for this. She felt once asked she had to try to search her memory to really remember and say whether there was something here. But this wasnt her idea to come forward. What happened is that 35 years ago when this incident took place people talked about it and people in that yale class have been talking about it since then and there is i mean, everybody here has been talking this morning about how theres no corroboration. Theres a very sober background source who was not part of the party, was not drunk, heard about it either that night he thinks or the next day. When i asked him myself does he remember this and is he sure that kavanaugh was the person he heard about in this, he said to me, i am 100 sure. Hes told hes mentioned it to other people in grad school over the years, his classmates were talking about it in july before Christine Blasey ford came forward. We have looked at the emails, theyre chattering about it saying, boy, if the fbi investigates him there are going to be some stories here that are going to put an end to his nomination. Right. So just to be clear, were not asserting anything other than what the New York Times here, let me read a couple New York Times quotes and see how it lines up with this new yorker piece. The times had interviewed several dozen people over the past week in an attempt to corroborate her story and can find no one with firsthand knowledge. Ms. Ramirez herself contacted former yale classmates asking if they recalled the incident and told some of them that she could not be certain mr. Kavanaugh was the one who exposed himself. That was the New York Times. Did she ever express any doubts to either you or ronan that it was that perhaps it was not mr. Kavanaugh, judge kavanaugh . To ronan she said she wasnt absolutely certain, she needed to make certain before she was going to say anything publicly. She remembered the specifics, the graphic specifics, it was very upsetting to her, and she tried to remember for sure who that man was who was in her face. So it took her a while before she felt she was completely certain, though i have to you know, with all due respect to the New York Times, which is the best paper in america, just because they couldnt get the story and speak to her or find the person that we found who remembered it from back then, it doesnt mean its not true. You know, it doesnt at any rate, you know, i think let me stop you there. So who is the new yorkers corroborating witness because the times says they couldnt find a corroborating witness . Somebody that was in the room at the time that it happened . No, this is as we say in the story, we we spoke to the people who are alleged to have been in the room and they kept saying things like, either they didnt return the phone calls or they would say, i cant remember. You know, this is why i think her call for the fbi is a good idea because sometimes something that people might say to a reporter is different from what they might say to an fbi officer. Exactly. When they are in danger of perjury charges. I think its a good idea. Its a hard thing. We tried very hard to put across what we do know, what we dont know, what the crossfire of allegations are. Its all transparent in the story. Right. You know, we tried to be completely forthright about it. Coming up on morning joe, two things that might well enrage the president , secretly recording him and trying to remove him from office. According to the New York Times, Rod Rosenstein discussed both. Th [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Tech so you think this chip is nothing to worry about . Well at safelite, anwe know sooner or later es. Every chip will crack. These friends were on a trip when their windshield got chipped. So they scheduled at safelite. Com. 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Click, call or visit a store today. Over the weekend allies of President Trump threatened to issue new subpoenas, demanded a Second Special counsel and even warned the president of a setup, all in reaction to one New York Times report that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein discussed wearing a wire to secretly record conversations with President Trump and discussed invoking the 25th amendment to oust him in the days after fbi director james comey was fired in may of 2017. This led senator Lindsey Graham to renew his calls for a special prosecutor to look into russia probe and the president s boosters on fox news warned him. Theres a bureaucratic coup against President Trump being discovered here, before the election, the people in question tried to taint the election, tip it to clintons favor, after the election theyre trying to undermine the president. I dont know what rosenstein did, but i know what mccabe or page instructed, they tried to destroy this president. Rosenstein is doing the country a great disservice by not appointing a special counsel to look at all of this. I have a message for the president tonight, under zero circumstances should the president fire anybody. I have multiple sources confirming this and more information coming. They are hoping and praying that the president does just that. Is Rod Rosenstein going to be indicted and is he looking to be fired . Tell me, when we talked about wearing a wire and talked about a vote on the 25th amendment for donald trump, was Rod Rosenstein being sarcastic . Thats not what the depth and breadth of our reporting showed. It showed that in the meeting rosenstein had been asked whether he was joking, he said he was not, and then raised a new prospect of wiring up fbi agents who were going into the oval office to meet with the president about being the next director. Also, no pushback from the Justice Department on whether the comment about the 25th amendment was sarcastic. What sort of gets lost in all of the noise around this story is the simple fact that in may of 2017, less than four months into Donald Trumps time in office, senior officials at the top of the Justice Department were talking about the 25th amendment as a way of removing him from office. Michael, on that point, Rod Rosenstein is a very smart guy, he is an accomplished guy, he has been around a while. The 25th amendment is such a huge hurdle in terms of proof, evidentiary material. Even if he tapes the president of the United States in the oval office, i mean, it had to occur to him that this was nearly an impossible feat. Thats one aspect of this story that id like you to comment on, and the other aspect, if you could comment on, is how long have you and adam goldman been working on this piece . It didnt appear to me that the piece all of a sudden popped up last week. So go ahead. Weve been trying to understand the period of time in may of 2017, its a an eightday period, between the comey firing and the appointment of mueller. In many ways it was the time that time forgot because it ends with mueller being appointed, the story goes in a new direction, not a lot of time at least in history books and since then has been given to that. So what was going on inside the Justice Department then . Well, Rod Rosenstein had been thrust into the national spotlight. He had been a long time u. S. Attorney up until that point, he had only been the Deputy Attorney general for two weeks and he was really struggling, he was emotional, he was unnerved, people said that he really was struggling in the moment to figure out what to do and in that period of time he threw out these different things, he threw out the idea of wearing a wire, he talks about the 25th amendment. This sort of captures the chaos going on inside the Justice Department as they moved towards what is the ultimate decision, which was to appoint mueller. Coming up, hans nichols joins us as President Trump begins meeting with World Leaders at the u. N. General a m assemb assembly. Semb assembly [narrator] the typical vacuum head has its limitations, so shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Takes more than just investment advice. From insurance to savings to retirement, it takes someone with experience and knowledge who can help me build a complete plan. Brian, my certified financial planner™ professional, is committed to working in my best interest. I call it my comfortable future plan, and its all possible with a cfp® professional. Find your certified financial planner™ professional at letsmakeaplan. Org. 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While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. Im going to be at the United Nations in new york. Ive always said the United Nations has tremendous potential, but it has not lived up to that potential. Its always been surprising to me that more things arent resolved, because you have all of these countries getting together in one location, but it doesnt seem to get there. I think it will. Were going to make a speech, were going to have many meetings. A lot of good things can happen. Thank you. President trump is in new york city this morning for this weeks United Nations general assembly. Arriving at the u. N. Just a short time ago, hes speaking right now about the global drug epidemic. Today hell also take part in meetings with leaders of south korea, egypt and france. The ongoing situation with iran is also expected to be a major theme for the week. It comes as tehran is blaming several western countries, including the United States, for a deadly attack on a military parade in iran over the weekend, saying regional countries and their, quote, u. S. Masters are responsible for funding and arming the attackers. Meanwhile, President Trumps personal attorney Rudy Giuliani is once again publicly calling for regime change in tehran. According to reuters, while speaking at the iran uprising summit, giuliani said that u. S. Sanctions are causing economic chaos in iran that could lead to a, quote, successful revolution. Adding i dont know when were going to overthrow them. It could be a few days, months, a couple of years, but its going to happen. The u. N. Ambassador nikki haley was asked yesterday if that is the official stance of the white house. There is no love for iran here in the United States and theres no love for the United States in iran. Both sides are going to go back and forth. The United States is not looking to do regime change in iran. Were not looking to do regime change anywhere. What we are looking to do is protect americans and our allies and do everything we can to stop it. That is staggering. Joining us now, we have hans nichols and former senior director and spokesperson for the National Security council in the Obama Administration ned price. So tell me, hans, how has the pentagon responded to Rudy Giuliani playing secretary of state and calling for the overthrow of the Iranian Regime . Theyre watching their twitter feed, which is something we see a lot at the pentagon. So often orders directly via twitter. I think were going to get a bit of an answer to this on wednesday when the president chairs that Security Council meeting on iran. Hes insistent this is about iran. His staff and the europeans agreed to a general proliferation discuss. Going forward were going to have to watch what the president says, because its pretty clear there are some bellicose elements in his white house. We have nikki haley rushing out to explain this is not official u. S. Policy. Once again, we have Rudy Giuliani, somebody closely associated with the president of the United States, making statements on Foreign Policy that are inconsistent with u. S. Foreign policy. Well, thats right, joe. Hans mentioned bellicose elements around this white house. Unfortunately there are actually bellicose elements within this white house. You dont have to look too far to find statements john bolton and mike pompeo have both made over the years saying that regime change is really the only way to prevent iran from obtaining a Nuclear Weapon. You look at this controversy that secretary of state pompeo has tried to gin up in recent days accusing john kerry of undermining u. S. Policy. You look at what kerry has told the iranians that they should not pursue a Nuclear Weapon. If that is so objectionable to mike pompeo and to others within the administration, you almost get the sense that this administration wants iran to actually break out of the nuclear deal, to race towards a Nuclear Weapon so they actually have an excuse to build up some of this rhetoric and potentially actually do something. I think that is whats so concerning about all of this. So hans, on iran, you know the expression that youre on the same page with someone else. Secretary mattis, we sort of know what page hes on with regard to iran. Does secretary mattis know what page the president is on . Thats a good question. I think thats part of the core of the challenge of reporting on mattis, is trying to figure out exactly what his relationship is with the president of the United States. On iran, he did not have the ability to influence the president to stay in. Now hes been largely silent. He says he supports the president , but we know where he was beforehand. He was ousted from the Obama Administration because he was too hawkish on iran. It seems like for the current president hes too dovish on iran. The chief at the organization for american states said this, that we cannot rule out the prospect of a military intervention in venezuela. The refugee crisis is becoming a bigger problem, internal instability. Have we seen anybody begin to talk about balance forplans for deployment . What theyll say is theyre thinking about it. You have a new head of southcom. He was mattiss senior military assistant. Mattis is putting someone in charge for south america. Thats the old job kelly had. So mattis will have someone very trusted there. What they have done is on the humanitarian side. In terms of advocating for regime change in venezuela, as long as were on the regime change conversation, it seems like the loudest voice for that is from marco rubio. When he talks about it, hes very sober about it. This is something they think they should consider for humanitarian reasons. When you talk to people about this, the argument they will make sometimes is theres a right to protect. What is a democracys role in trying to forestall or stop what could be a humanitarian crisis . Its an open question. Weve seen in every white house there are different camps on these big issues. Who has the president s ear on iran right now in this white house, do you think . I think its a trio. I dont think you discount bolton. Mattis is clearly there, but as we said there are limits with him. Pompeo is driving a lot of the conversation. One of the interesting things about tillerson as secretary of state is he and mattis would have breakfast once a week and coordinate the way they wanted to present a united threat. Now theres a third party in that. Thats bolton. It isnt the same unified line of effort that you had with mattis and tell you that mattis was a little late in realizing that tillerson wasnt quite as plugged in as he should have been. Mattis was almost tainted by tillerson. Now you have a National Security advisor who is definitely more hawkish than either of those two. The dynamic there is really how these three get together. When stuff goes to the president , the president gets the information from outside sources as well. He gets information from Rudy Giuliani, advice. Hes talking to all kinds of people. The big change ive seen in the last year and a half is the extent to which officials in the pentagon will have the president s twitter feed up because they want to know what hes thinking. President trump appears to be backing down from his push to declassify certain documents from the ongoing russia probe. On friday the president tweeted, i met with the doj concerning the declassification of various unredacted documents. They agreed to release them, but stated that so doing may have a perceived negative impact on the russia probe. Also, key allies called to ask not to release. Therefore, the Inspector General has been asked to review these documents on an expedited basis. I believe he will move quickly on this and hopefully other things which he is looking at. Speed is very important to me and everyone. But a senior u. S. Official tells intelligence and National Security reporter for nbc news that President Trump is not asking the Inspector General to do a declassification review, but instead is completely backing down on his demand that these documents be released. The move comes amid a barrage of protests from within the department of justice and from foreign allies over the potential fallout of releasing the information. So i suppose, ned, everything is relative, but we have noticed over the past week or two that donald trump, by Donald Trumps very low standards, from time to time has shown some restraint. And one of the ways was when he was talking to sean hannity before a rally where he was ready to go out and throw red meat into the crowd. He said, hey, ive been talking to our allies, very important allies, very close allies who have some real concerns about releasing these documents. Its not just as easy as throwing them all out there. It seems that concerns from within the Intel Community but also concerns from our foreign allies have actually caused the president to pause. Whats your take . I think that was part of it, joe. I think you also have to remember that the concerns of our close partners and allies around the world have never been paramount to this administration. Not all that long ago, it was sean spicer standing up from the white house podium and intimating that the british may have spied on the Trump Campaign during the election. Weve seen donald trump pick fights with some of our closest allies including Prime Minister may. Why is he doing it now . Again, he hasnt given a damn what his Intel Community has said and he hasnt cared in the past about what our allies thought. But it seems hes stepping back from the edge and listening to both here. Theres a tremendous euphemism buried in that first tweet, perceived negative impact on the investigation. When i read that, i see that as Donald Trumps lawyers finally getting to him and making the case that, look, you cannot weaponize intelligence, you cannot weaponize National Security information in a way that is very well perceived to be interfering in the investigation. When i read that statement, i think that donald trump realized certainly with the help of counsel that doing so would only add to the obstruction case that bob mueller is looking into and that i think for his own legal cause that he backed down wisely in this case. All right. We want to thank nbcs hans nichols for being on this morning. Ned, stay with us, because you are part of the new book that were talking about next. The Obama Administration through the eyes of the men and women who worked to make his vision a reality. N and women who worked to make his vision a reality. So shark invented duo clean. While deep cleaning carpets, the added soft brush roll picks up large particles, gives floors a polished look, and fearlessly devours piles. Duo clean technology, corded and cordfree. And fearlessly devours piles. I needthats whenvice foi remembered that my exex exboyfriend actually went to law school, so i called him. 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I have to know, what is it like to be the last black president . Seriously . Whats it like for this to be the last time you ever talk to a president . It must kind of stink though that you cant run three times. Actually, i think its a good idea. You know, if i ran a third time, it would be sort of like doing a third hangover movie, didnt really work out very well, did it . That was president obama on funny or dies between two ferns during his push to save obamacare. The story of how that interview came to be as well as other behind the scene stories from the Obama White House are the subject of the new book west wingers, stories from the dream chasers, change makers and hope creators, inside the Obama White House. And joining us now is the books editor. He served as president obamas liaison to the Lgbt Community and the asia Pacific Islander community. We thank you very much for being on this morning. First of all, can you tell us how that interview came about . A lot of it is in the book. My colleague writes about the leadup to the healthcare. Gov launch. And in the aftermath there was a need to find some way to get people energized and excited about obamacare. He walks us through the behind the scenes of getting to talk to Zach Galifianakis and the crew at funny or die. And then actually the day of ta taping. In the end it paid off, millions of people visiting the funny or die video and then sign up. As you know, there are moments in every presidency that resonate beyond all anticipation. So with that in mind, tell us about Heather Foster and the day that she spent with the president of the United States in charleston, south carolina. Yes, so, you know, this book, as mentioned, healthcare. Gov, Marriage Equality. The toughest days talked about in the book is the charleston funeral service. Heather walks us through the day of the shooting itself. Meeting with folks on the ground. Meeting with families. And then the actual day of the service. And, you know, this was in the middle of a whole lot of chaos. While they were there, the Marriage Equality ruling came down. And she had seen an advance copy of the president s speech but there was no, you know, pause in there. Walks us through this amazing moment where youre in the midst of grieving, families who need solace and the president of the United States takes the stage and in the middle of his speech pauses and begins to sing. A moment a lot of us remember profoundly. Again, its one of those moments of healing but told from the eyes of a staffer on the ground dealing with all the logistics, the Politics Around funeral services, around hate violence and the community. So hopefully you get a bit of a different glimpse from her perspective. I see youre also in this book. Its a bit of a class reunion day for the white house here. Tell us about your own story in this book. Then i want you to tell me a broader thing. How so Many Americans who voted for president obama turned around and then voted for President Trump and what you make of that as a former staffer. So my story in this book to start is essentially my path to the white house, which strangely i suppose went through the cia. And i start on the day that inspired so many of my generation, 9 11. I was a College Freshman not too far from here. Been at school for about two weeks. But from cha day forward, i knew i wanted to enter public service. I knew i wanted to be in the Foreign Policy and National Security realm. A lot of what i deal with is a lot of what the nation dealt with in the ensuing years after 9 11. The fear that gripped us. The corrosive effect of that fear. The implications it has on our Decision Making and morale conscious and how we wrestle with the need to protect our country. Doing so in a way that adheres to americas valuings. Its a balance that we always didnt get right. I think we have been candid about that. President obama himself was pretty frank about that. Its also a conversation that we have needed to have after all those years. And thats essentially what i discussed in my chapter in somewhat personal terms as well. I often think we overextrapolate the lessons of 2016. We often forget that it was donald trump who actually lost the popular vote by a pretty wide margin. We often forget he is now president of the United States because of some three pivotal states. I think we need to temper how far we reached these conclusions. Certainly theres a part of america, a swath of this country that has felt left out. I dont think it has much to do with president obama. I think it has more to do with structural changes in our economy with the ways our country is developing. And with the way these people feel that they do not have the opportunities that some of their peers in other parts of the country did. Thats a conversation just like the post9 11 conversation we had and i participated in, thats the kind of conversation we need to have. How we include all americans and howd we ensure everyone, all 300plusmillion americans have the opportunities they need to feel part of this social fabric. You get the sense from dream chasers and hope creators these are real true believers. Where are they today . How are they coping with the trump era . Do they still have hope . Are they sort of deflated . We never stop being the country that elected barack obama twice. We have to remind ourselves of that. A lot of these folks are now being paying change from outside in different ways, whether its in congress, or working in advocacy, working philanthropy. We all feel the call to service that president obama gave to us. Thats really what this book is about. The idea theres a nobility to Government Service we dont necessarily see anymore. Whether its the scandal and house of card stories or really what were seeing now. For us its important to remind people you can be a white house staffer and come from a very unusual background as we all did and that you can pursue your dreams all the way to the white house too. And many are running for office now. The book is west wingers. Stories from the dream chasers, change makers and hope creators, inside the Obama White House. Thank you very much. Ned price, thank you as well. And now time for a quick final thoughts. Mike barnicle. You begin. I think thursday is a big day and its going to be performance. Performance on television from dr. Ford. Its going to have a huge inflauns with what happens in the Court Decision with judge kavanaugh. Im thinking about the a different thought than ned price. I think were dealing with the thoughts of the Obama Presidency and you can draw a pretty Straight Line from obama to trump. Theres a lot that happened in those years that explains why we are the country we are today. Noah. Yes, i think what he said was you do have to distinguish between judge kavanaughs judicial philosophy and these allegations which are frankly criminal. If we decide the preponderance of evidence supports them, i think you have to pursue his judgeshipped on the circuit co. Ill just say for the media, there are two sides to this story. We need to stick to the facts and cover the story and let the story speak for itself, let it play out. That does it for us this morning. Stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. Thanks, mika. Good morn, everyone. Im stephanie ruhle, starting with another accuser. A second woman now coming forward accusing Brett Kavanaugh of Sexual Misconduct. This, after a week of negotiations resulted in dr. Christine ford agreeing to testify this thursday. But have senators already made up their minds . There are a few members of both sides, republicans and democrat, where who they believe this week will make the difference in how they vote. Unless theres something more, no, im not going to ruin judge kavanaughs life over there. Nbc news exclusive, one on one with the man who set up the Infamous Trump tower meeting. He called it a dirty deal and possibly a crime,