Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20140320

breaking news this morning. australian authorities announce the country has spotted two large objects in the indian ocean possibly linked to malaysian airlines flight 370. four planes are searching the areas 1,500 miles off perth, australia. one of the projected flight paths of the missing airliner about four hours off australia's western shore line. u.s. navy and new zealand air forces are also shift assisting with the search. john young spoke to reporters earlier this morning. >> i don't profess to be an expert in assessing the imagery but those experts create incredible sightings. the indications to me are objects of reasonable size and are probably awash with water bobbing up and down out of the surface. >> one thing that is frustrating is the objects in the satellite images were taken four days ago and they may be difficult to locate at this point but they are believed to be as large as 78 feet wide. right now, officials are calling it this their best lead. however there is reportedly poor visibility in the area and the waters there are believed to be much deeper than originally thought and talking about two and a half miles deep. young also spoke about what happens if the planes are able to locate and identify debris. >> the most likely scenario is an aircraft will find an object if it is findable and then report back at an accurate gps position and a ship proceed to the area and attempt to see it. that would be our first chance to get a close-up look at whatever the objects might be and progressively advance the identification of whether they are associated with the search. >> malaysia transport minister said earlier this morning the search is continuing in both the northern and southern corridors of the indian ocean. nbc news kerry sanders has been following the developments throughout the night from washington. officials there are also trying to connect with malaysian authorities and australian authorities and figure out how they can help. kerry, what is the latest? >> mika, this was very hopeful news that when the australian satellite images were made public and it appeared there was going to be perhaps an indication of where this plane went down because that debris, one piece, which is at least 78 feet based on the analysis of the satellite images, another piece which is about 15 feet. so the u.s. military dispatched its highest tech plane, the p- into the area. that aircraft is now returning from the area after spending four hours on station which is a military term for in the area. and with the highest tech gear available really designed to search for submarines and anti-submarine war fare. unfortunately, they have found nothing. no confirmation at all there is debris in the area, much less debris that may have come from an aircraft. then adding to the, i guess, disappointment here is that the australians dispatched a p-3 which a lower tech aircraft but nonetheless was in the area and the now returning. they say that for them, the gear that they were using, some of it was hampered due to the weather in the area but bottom line they were unable to confirm any evidence of a debris field as well. >> so are they debunking what we're looking at here as some are calling the best possible lead so far? >> they are not debunking it. what they are not doing is confirming it. >> all right. >> i mean, they are ideally, we have found debris. the sort of technology deployed in this area is so effective even if the pieces of debris were going up and down on the surface maybe waves washing over, because we understand the sea state in the area is about nine foot swells and the winds 25 knots, just evidence evidenced that they were working up the day and found 400 pieces what turned out to be garbage floating in the ocean, they were able to spot it and determine what it was and then rule it out as debris. >> stand by, kerry, if you'd like and jump in. we will take it to the table here. steve rattner, when you first heard this, did it sound hopeful and when you're talking about the size of the debris? >> my first reaction looking at at the australians we are seem to be hearing from people on top of the thing and not with respect to the malaysians which not a respectful operation. it's difficult to know what is out there and preliminary sightings and questions about what is really there. it certainly sounds like the most hopeful sign we have had in a long time since the beginning there might be something out there and consistent with the flight paths we have been talking about and we should talk more about what the complications of that are. >> i was wondering about that. i initial heard it was outside the flight path or the perimeter they were looking at. >> sure, it was slightly outside but you've got drift and ocean currents and imprecision. if true, if there is something to this, it does tend to confirm the most wildly accepted hypothesis that that plane turned south and flew for seven hours before it ran out of fuel. >> we got a lot more information coming in. bobby gosh, i want to ask you about this. i mow malaysian officials in their news conference this morning have been talking directly to the families literally and putting up a health center, a medical center near where they are being kept because they are so distraught and this latest information could lead to obvious emotional breakdowns and they have been breaking down. they have been fighting back and they have been begging and screaming for answers, which anybody would do in their situation even if it was being handled to the best of the ability of any organization. having said that, what do we make of the lack of transparency from malaysia? is it just sdorgs or do we have to worry that there is something else at play? >> at the moment, it seems mainly like disorganization. they have been releasing information late and inconsistently changing their stories and the families particularly in beijing, where the majority of the passengers were chinese. the families there are -- i mean, we can't begin to put ourselves in their position and because a lot of these passengers, these are members of chinese new middle class and flying internationally is relatively new. my colleagues tell me those in the hotel in beijing a lot of them are farmers and from the countryside and they are already stressful being away from place that they -- from their comfort zone. they are in this strange place in the city. their families are missing and they are dealing with an airline that seems unable to understand their grief and give them any kind of information. so this has been clearly a disorganization. it's a little early to speculate whether there is anything more there than simply disorganization. but one way or another the families need to know something. >> yeah. they might get something in the coming days. thomas roberts, you're bringing in another guest as with we cover the breaking news this morning. australian authorities announce announcing the country has spotted two large objects in the indian ocean possibly linked to malaysia airlines flight 370. they have planes now searching this area where the objects were potentially found, although the satellite pictures are four days old so they could have moved. it's and area about 1,500 miles off perth, australia. it is within the projected area of the flight path of the plane and the best known lead so far. thomas? >> the u.s. navy asset in the area, the p-8 which is also called the poseidon is touted as the world's most long-range antisub and war surface aircraft it can search above and under water simultaneous and it's back to perth to refuel and the crew on board need to get rest before they head back out. they have not been able to confirm. >> overlapping conflict here. >> joining our conversation is retired airlines flight instructor tom casey. let's talk about the assets in the area. we heard in the last half hour the prime minister of transportation talking about the international forces that have collectively come together to learn its muscle to this search. the p-8 being touted as the world's most advanced aircraft in finding debris above and under water, how hopeful are we to get any type of result from the p-8 once it gets back up in the air again? >> well, they are bringing this investigation into a refined focus as steve rattner said and that is a good thing. bringing the navy subchasers or radar ships into this field is the only way to find that debris. they are taking off from new york and flying to denver and then doing their search in denver and then coming back to new york. it's a huge distance and they are covering a huge area out there. you can't see with a naked eye debris on seas like that. 25 knot winds and nine-foot swells so they have all of the radar electronican assistance ty can and they have it. the downside is the human dimension is beginning to come into clear focus for all of us who have been focused on the mystery and that is truly tragic. if, in fact, they do find the debris we move into another stage of grieving and speculation with respect to why something like this so tragic could happen. >> the human dimension is almost impossible to imagine and, obviously, the biggest part of this, in some ways. having said that, katty kaye, bring you in from washington. the massive search of massive swath of the world is, at least for now, focused on this 1,500 mile area and possibly may find debris from the plane. what will it take to get there and what questions can we ask that will give people some answers? >> i think the first question, is this substantially different from the images that were released on the fifth day of the search by the chinese that showed debris. is there a difference in the quality for the debris the australians seem to be seeing and the location some my question to tom would be if it's true that the reports are coming out that these photos are four days old, tom, how does that complicate the search for this debris and who are you turning to? oceanographers, current experts to try to find out hard that debris may have shifted in big waves and strong winds? >> if we can believe the focus has narrowed to an area where they do have hard facts and have a photograph, they will bring every resource they can to track the currents and the winds and to track the path of the debris. you're right. time is the enemy of this investigation and 13 days have passed. it's been a remarkable effort and continues to be remarkable and we hope for the best outcome. but it doesn't look promising. >> tom, how far could a piece of debris go? this is four days. how far could a piece of debris this size could travel in the ocean 24 hours, say? >> it's if moving at, let's say, nine or ten knots which wouldn't be unusual, do the math. it's continuing to move and it will continue to move. but as you say, oceanographers and locate the data recorder. if you remember from air france 447, it took, i think, two years to find that data recorder after they located the debris. >> i want to take a look at some theories here. bobby gosch and steve rattner, keep them real because some should probably be debunk right away. my heart is always with the families when we look at these theories because some of them are quite wild where people believe this plane has landed somewhere. let me go through this. we wait to see if these objects, obviously, and we are going to be bringing information throughout the next three hours on "morning joe" from several different international locations as they try and figure out what this debris was, how it compares to the images that we got from china, and how big they are and how credible they are ultimate, because there is still a lot of controversy over whether or not the debris is seriously related to the plane or even existed according to american officials, although australian officials, as steve rattner pointed out, have a credible plan in place and officials in place who have done this before and they seem to feel that they have found something. having said that, there are several possible scenarios that are being discussed by aviation experts and by those following the story online, one scenario is that there was an electrical fire that forced the pilots to take emergency action. this might explain why the plane went off course. the crew in the cockpit was attempting to find an airport to make an emergency landing. another possibility is that something called catastrophic decompression happened. the crew would have lost consciousness from an unplanned drop in cabin pressure. in that case the plane might have continued flying, however, if the plane's flight change was programmed this theory would be ruled out and we do have information that leads us to believe that the flight change was programmed and possibly even in flight. of course, a hijacking has not been ruled out. i think a lot of people are thinking about that. there are also theories that suggest the plane was crashed after an aborted hijacking and then there is the possibility that a plane actually landed somewhere. there are hundreds of potential lesser known air folds and abandoned air strips the plane could have landed in excluding major airport which would make its whereabouts immediately known. there are theories that somebody built a landing strip. you can go on and on and on, steve rattner. having said that, of the list that i just gave you, are all of them too outlandish or close to potential reality? >> i think all of them are too outlandish in the first instance and i think later in the show we will show some charts where i lay out for you step-by-step why they are outlandish. all of these things you mentioned happened in planes and can happen in planes but when a fire happens or an decompression happens the first thing you do is not turn off your means of communication and being seen by the outside world. that is just not what any pilot would do. so the very careful sequence of actions in which the transponder, the radar detecting device, was turned off relative when they were talking to air traffic control and relative when they turned off the acar system which is another method of communication all is a plane that did not want to be found. it was not a plane in trouble. it was a plane that did not want to be found. >> how do you not then directly go to hijacking? >> again, i'll show you the time line in a little bit. i directly go to the fact at the time that co-pilot made his last check in with malaysian air traffic control, something was going on in that cockpit. whether he had a gun to his head, whether he was somehow involved with it. he had that communication with air traffic control. three minutes later, the transponder turns off and the plane goes into a different course. >> that is proven. >> that is all proven. those are facts. >> thomas roberts? >> let's bring tom casey back into the conversation. tom, we talk a lot about air france flight 447 that crashed into the atlantic ocean. a flight leaving from paris to rio. the pilots had some type of thunderstorm issue that they encountered and there was electrical difficulty plunging about 6 hundred miles off the coast of brazil. as we talk about the debris field, when they originally found debris from that it was spotted five days after the flight although this discovery wasn't the actual impact site. that was found 30 miles away. as we talk about the black boxes. they weren't found from that crash until 2011. talk about the black boxes in this case. we know that they are halfway through theattery life supposedly but do the black boxes record over themselves? and if that happens will we have facts based on what happened in the cockpit? >> yes, you will. most of them, as far as i recall, have a two-hour loop but that is voice activated. the 15 minutes stretches out to hours and is like watching a football game so that will be preserved. as far as what happened, why the plane made that turn, the only -- you can see an intervention which would be a hijacking or a crew member went rogue. the debris field of air france 447, they were able to find point of impact and they were able to localize the search because of the storm. they knew the storm brought the airplane down. the challenge here is we don't know where this plane went down. >> right. well, and that is why some people believe it's on the ground somewhere. >> right. exactly. that's still a possibility. >> we don't know, do we? not yet. >> we don't know but i think it's extraordinarily remote possibility. just to clarify one thing about the black boxes. there is really two parts to this. one is the voice recording part which is two hours as tom said and does potentially go longer. the data recording, every move goes to the end and that will prove useful. >> i know you don't me to go there. kerry sanders wants to jump in. he has got a bigger sense of the search area. i guess we should look at the very wild theory of potential places where the plane could have gone down on land. take it away what you have to say there, kerry. >> i want to you through to the map and sort of explain why they are looking in the area where they are. if we take a look down here, the flights are coming out of perth where the p-3 and p-8 flights are coming out to search the area. initially the ntsb established an area down here that was 300,000 square miles and said take six weeks to look at it. it then realized 12, 14 hours later they thought they could make it smaller down to 120,000 square miles which is what they did. they came up with 120,000 square-mile area which is in that area there where they are looking. the actual debris that the satellite picture has shown is actually to the south of that area. it's down here. so that's likely a result of the drift that you were talking about and they have been looking at it. they have their teams together to sort of figure this out how far that may have drifted since those photographs were taken. while important is not the key question right now. it's really a matter of determination whether there is, indeed, debris there. then they can work back to make their way back to the black boxes. i should point out they are orange, not black. those boxes, if they can locate them, should provide the real question is what happened? >> right. those box have like, give or take, 30-day shelf life and sometimes last longer. the problem is if they are under the mud, upside down, it might be hard to locate them. there's so many frustrating possibilities that could -- >> don't forget how deep the water is here. we are talking two and a half miles down and a signal pinging once every second but with colder water it travels at a shorter distance and in perfect conditions it could maybe make 14,000 feet. >> bobby? >> the thing with the air france thing, it took us two years to find the black box but once they found the debris, they knew where it was. the only difficulty, the reason it took two years it was 30,000 feet under the surface. at this point we don't know where the black box is. it's a little bit up in the air. >> again, theories that will then jump out at you. some of them wild and some of them technical possible. tom, casey, i'm going to ask you to talk about why you think that we should even discuss this plane being on land and do that later. coming up on "morning joe," more in the breaking news in the search for the missing plane. we have got complete coverage including reports from our nbc news correspondents, aviation experts and much more coming up on "morning joe." salesperson #1: the real deal's the passat tdi clean diesel gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. salesperson #2: actually, we're throwing in a $1,000 fuel reward card. we've never done that. that's why there's never been a better time to buy a passat tdi clean diesel. husband: so it's like two deals in one? 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>> well, it's not that i rule it out. certainly the evidence is pointing to a ditching and either a hijacking or the crew going rogue. the main indicator for me is the pilot, there was no mayday call or stress call from the crew. that leads me to believe it was taken off into a ditching in a remote location. however, we don't have yet, we haven't seen, touched, felt, or analyzed anything yet. we have an image from space. that's good. it takes us in a direction but until we have hard facts we can at least hold a little bit of hope that some other result happened. however, at this point, however, unlikely that might be. >> bobby, your take on that theory. >> president obama said he is putting all american resources into the search and a lot of resources there if you remember, the arc that was presented all the way up from kazakhstan down to the deep southern part of the indian ocean in the north, we have military bases in afghanistan. in the southern indian ocean -- >> could have landed somewhere? >> pretty unlikely. nothing is bob but all of the plausible scenarios this is the least plausible. if it landed somewhere it wouldn't take us 13 days to find some of it. >> kerry sanders is joining us. let's talk about the objects that have been described as credible, at least in leading search investigators to this portion of the indian ocean. there are two different satellite objects that appeared. one being ruffle 78 feet long and the other 15 feet long, correct? >> that cis correct'. they were taken by satellite images. we are looking at photographs taken from orb bitting satellite with decent resolution but not the resolution you would like to determine what exactly it is. is so that information is then shared with those that have the aircraft, which in this case the australians are sharing it with their own navy and going to the new zealand navy and u.s. navy. those are where the p-8s and p-3s are going. the u.s. sends its p-8 out there. it looks and looks in the target area for four hours. it's now flying back. it does not see anything that confirms there is any type of degree there. at the same time, a p-3 goes out from the australian military. looks and he doesn't see anything and has additional problems because of the technology they are using with the weather. the u.s. doesn't really sort of have that problem but they don't see anything and now that aircraft is returning. i don't know the status of the p-3 from the new zealand navy. in addition to that, there is a c-130, a hercules, it flies low, slow, it's ugly, but what its goal is to get into the area where, hopefully, there is this debris and it can drop down drop sounders that mark the area so they don't lose the area. at the same time, there is a naval vessel from the australian vessel steaming there but it's slow and it will take days to get there. they are on the radio contact with a cargo ship that's in the area and they have requested the cargo ship to divert. would you go down to this location where we believe the debris is? the cargo ship has accepted that responsibility and it may actually be arriving there relatively soon. the problem is as you can imagine, you don't stand on a ship and look out and, all of a sudden, see debris in nine foot seas when the wind is blowing 25 knots. they need a really solid location to get there to look down and then say, yes, we actually see it. >> it could be sinking further and further as we speak. katty kay, jump in from washington. >> pick up on kerry said there. you're on this cargo ship. the debris could be a hundred yards away from you but if there are big waves between you and the sea you may never see it and it could go straight past you so you have to have the pinpoint accuracy. i want to pick up on the discussion about whether the plane could have possibly landed. i'm attempted to totally dismiss it as the crazy theorists out there. when you look at the patch of land from kazakhstan to australia that is a fairly well peopled patch of land. there are areas there of jungle i suppose someone could built a air strip landing place. 300 people on board and nobody noticed what happened. no radar, no villageages or mountain people pick it up. to me it seems incredible. i was going to ask tom whether he thinks that theory has any plausibility to it in terms of the logistics of getting a plane onto a ground in an airfield that is remote enough it would still not be seen after 12 days? >> i don't. i think probably the plane was either commandeered or ditched. i push back against speculation because we don't have hard evidence yet. i agree with you. as these days have gone by and we haven't found any indication that a large jumbo jet is in a discrete location. still, we don't have yet what we have been seeking and what we wanted for so many days now. we don't have a solution to the mystery. >> as we look at the latest hard news that we have on the missing plane, these objects that we are focused on so heavily this morning, they are in satellite images that were taken four days ago. they may be difficult to locate but they are believed to be as large as 78 feet wide. right now, officials are calling this their best lead in the search for the missing plane. steve rattner, i want to back up now. if the plane was headed this way, which this is within the flight path, the perimeter that they were searching, why then wouldn't australia radar have any sign of that, pick it up? 777. >> you know, that's pretty simple answer and part of the problem here. radar is ground-based so radar can only see 50, a hundred, maybe 200 miles off shore from wherever it is located on land. this debris field is 1,500 miles offshore. no way a plane flying in that area could be tracked by radar. the only reason that we think the plane was in that area was because of this satellite communication that existed between its black box and the satellite itself. so, no, radar would be of no help here. but conversely, in the previous conversation, one of the reasons why i don't believe this plane is on land is because there's good radar coverage all across asia and the idea a plane like this could have gotten into an area of radar coverage and not detect and you see those yell dots on that map, there's radar coverage all over there and it just defies credibility. >> over 630 different potential landing sites that were established in this search radius because of the size of the 777 it would need 7,000 to land and an experienced pilot could do it less than that, about 5,000 feet but if it was landing be used for takeoff it needs that longer length. >> when you look at the hijacking theory there seems no reason why a hijacker would turn off the transponder and all sorts of abilities to track the plane and then just ditch it where no one can see. >> unless went wrong. >> that's why something else happened. something else happened. >> something else happened. >> very fascinating think about the poseidon. this sophisticated aircraft that the u.s. navy has lent to the search. i want to talk about that so our audience understands this is built from an air frame of 737 and fly maximum speed 565 miles an hour. as the navy tells us the poseidon in this search fly 5,000 photo and can search a thousand feet for visual inspections. let's talk about the flight it means for the p-8 to go back to perth for refueling and how fast it can get into a potential search area and given weather conditions and drift. >> the good news is because it's a jet it goes faster than the p-3, the propellor planes. it's less for the p-3 to get out there which means it can spend a little bit more time over the area. the real question is not so much about the exhaustion of fuel. the exhaustion of the crew. they need to rest. they don't need to be airborne to the point they start having problems themselves. they are on their way back to perth and they will actually sleep, rest, as the aircraft is prepared for another flight. i requested, but i haven't been given, their flight plans yet to determine when they are going back airborne. it appears they have been not doing a complete staggering but trying to stagger the various aircraft into the area so you don't have two p-3s and one p-8 on top of each other but have them bicycling in and out so there is a continued search. i think the australian authorities had a pretty confident belief that once they released this information that the aircraft going in were going to confirm what they believed and a fair amount of disappointment that after really raising hopes that there was some evidence of debris floating on the water that there is no confirmation of that by two different aircraft. >> yep. that is for sure. as we look at this, the conflicting information coming in as well as australian authorities who believe they have seen two large objects in the indian ocean that are possibly the best lead yet. so we continue our breaking news coverage here. coming up, frustration boils over for the relatives of the missing passengers on flight 370. keir simmons has a report from malaysia and the families who are awaiting for the long-awaited answers. especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a wide range of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for. tap into the full power of your fidelity green line. call today and we'll make it easy to move that old 401(k) to a fidelity rollover ira. you want a loan to build you can't do that.ica? 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[ male announcer ] ...is you! the amazing spider-man 2 delivered by the united states postal service. flight 370 still amidstry, the family and friends of the missing 227 passengers and 12 crew members are justifiably distraught as the fate of their loved ones remains unknown. yesterday, frustration with the lack of answers from malaysian officials or any answers boiled over in front of the international media. nbc's keir simmons was there and has the latest from kuala lumpur. >> her son was on flight 370. >> reporter: she came here to talk to reporters ahead of an official news conference. she came with other family members frustrated with the government, stricken by grief. then malaysian security arrives. there are shouts of protests. she is dragged away. a mother overwhelmed by grief. she collapses. and officials carry her off screaming. she and another relative are taken to this room and kept from journalists for more than an hour. then security guards escort the women through the hotel lobbiel. the family is ushered into this part of the hotel. camera crews and journalists battling with malaysian official just trying to speak to them. one official told me they removed the grieving mother and other relatives because the news conference was not their platform. do you think this is the right image for malaysia, sir? >> no, sir. >> reporter: malaysia transportation minister later apologized for what happened as family members got much-needed report from relatives who died in air france flight. solidarity and practical advice of what the family members of flight 370 have been going through. >> that was nbc's keir simmons reporting. it gives you a sense of malaysia and their inability to handle this on every level. >> the poor families going through this chaotic process and the raw emotion that goes along with it for not having any answers 13 days in and now having this potentially credible lead and focused the attention for investigators. >> the handling of these families seems almost abusive. >> every couple of years we see something like this happens and families in grief but we haven't seen airlines responding so poorly, authorities responding so poorly. >> roughly and with physical restrai restraint. >> with regard to the families they have crisis centers where the families are saying in kuala lumpur, as well as beijing. up next, steve rattner breaks down the information on the jet. that is our breaking news this morning straight hate on "morning joe." ahate on "morning joe." ehate on "morning joe." ahate on "morning joe." dhate on "morning joe." ate on "morning joe." te on "morning joe." e on "morning joe." on "morning joe." for over a decade millions have raised their hand for the proven relief of the purple pill. and that relief could be in your hand. for many, nexium helps relieve heartburn symptoms from acid reflux disease. find out how you can save at purplepill.com. there is risk of bone fracture and low magnesium levels. side effects may include headache, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. if you have persistent diarrhea, contact your doctor right away. other serious stomach conditions may exist. avoid if you take clopidogrel. for many, relief is at hand. ask your doctor about nexium. itit grows more sophisticated baevery day. back alleys. if it were a business, it would be a fortune 500 company. fraud has evolved. american express intelligent security gives you tools to fight fraud and a global service network that never stops working. so you can be a member of a more secure world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. we are following this breaking news on the missing jet and the possible debris, large piece of debris that were found off the coast of australia. steve rattner, you have some more thoughts on the whereabouts of this plane other than what we are talking about this morning? >> well, i'd like to go back to first principles a little bit, because there are still a lot of theories around us as to what happened. to me, certain things if what we are being told is true, that is a big if, i think we know some things based on the initial flight path of that plane as to what likely happened. if you take a look at this plane which took off from kuala lumpur 12:41 in the morning on the fateful day and flew northeast up toward beijing and can see on this a yellow dotted line which is the initial and traditional flight path of a plane going to beijing. at 1:19, the co-pilot made a very routine check-in with air traffic control basically around here and said everything is fine, good night. after that, two minutes after that they turned off the transponder, piece of equipment that tells the ground where it is and some time in that same period they turned off the acar system and they turned off the acar system which also sends data back to the base and they also reprogrammed the flight control so the flight management system to tell it to go to the different way point which is a turn to the left. he makes his radar report. the transponder goes off and the plane makes unscheduled turn to the left and they lose radar contact with it because the transponder has gone off and all of this happens within a two-minute period. you tell me how a co-pilot makes a routine radio communication and two minutes later turns off a critical pels of equipment? not what you would do if there is an mechanical problem or not if there was a hijacking unless somebody had a gun to your head. >> right. there's no indication that there was, you know, some sort of message being sent or stress in his voice. it sounds like -- >> no indication. routine. i'm not saying the co-pilot did it but there was something else happening when the cofilt pooirlt pooirlted. >> the and not get the attention of something that was potentially with a gun to their head. what could they do? that would not draw the attention of, say, a potential heighter? >> if you had an experienced heighter you set your transponder to sent out 7700 which is the international call for distress but they clearly had experienced people on that plane because they knew about the acar system and the transponders and so on. i'm not saying the co-pilot did it but something going on in the cockpit the last time the copiloted made routine communication with no distress in his voice. >> do we have independent verification of that? the malaysian authorities have been a little all over the place with this time line. they have changed the story. >> they have been a lot all over the place. they initially got the time of the fms sending the acar signal wrong. but i think the timing of the communication with their traffic control, the timing of turning off the transponder the time when they lost radar contact with -- when they lost radar contact with this plane, i think all of that we now nochlt. >> from other sources or only from the malaysian people? >> i think that is confirmed. nobody is disputing any of those things. >> you have another map to show us and we will get to that later. coming up, as we cover the breaking news per tainting to flight 370 we will have a light report from malaysia where the search stands right now for the hundreds of missing passengers. we will be right back. ♪ [ girl ] my mom, she makes underwater fans . that are powered by the moon. \ s at ge. ♪ ameriprise asked people a simple question: can you keep your lifestyle in retirement? i don't want to think about the alternative. i don't even know how to answer that. i mean, no one knows how long their money is going to last. i try not to worry, but you worry. what happens when your paychecks stop? because everyone has retirement questions. ameriprise created the exclusive confident retirement approach. to get the real answers you need. start building your confident retirement today. rescue coordinates sent australia has received satellite imagery of objects possibly related to the search for the missing aircraft flight mh-370. rcc australia received an expert assessment for their satellite imagery this morning 20th of march. continues to hold grave concerns for the passengers and crew on board. and i must emphasize that these objects may be very difficult to locate and they may not be related to the search. >> breaking news this morning as australian authorities announce the country has spotted two large objects in the indian ocean possibly linked to malaysian airlines flight 370. four planes are now searching the area about 1,500 miles off perth, australia. the area in question aligns with one of the projected flight paths of the missing airliner about four hours off australian's western shore line. u.s. navy and nelveed air force are assi john young spoke to reporters earlier this morning on this. >> the relatives are distinct on the imagery. i don't pretend to be an expert but those expert indicate they are credible sightings. the indication to me is objects of reasonable size and probably awash with water bobbing up and down out of the surface. >> the objects in the satellite images which were taken four days ago may be difficult to locate. but are believed to be as large as 78 feet wide. right now, officials are calling this their best lead. however, there is reportedly poor visibility in the area and the waters there are believed to be much deeper than originally thought. perhaps even more than two miles deep. young also spoke about what happens if the planes are able to locate and identify debris. >> the most likely scenario is that an aircraft will find an object if it is findable, and then report back at an accurate gps position and task the ship to proceed to the area and attempt to see it. that would be our first chance to get a close-up look at whatever the objects might be and progressively advance the identification of whether they are associated with the search. >> malaysia's transport minister said earlier this morning the search is continuing in the northern and southern corridors of the indian ocean. we have a couple of different members of the ntsb, former members and pilots joining us. this hopeful sign, i guess, we have to be very careful about. having said that, we are looking at what it's going to take to get to this debris if we can get to it. my god. it's the only thing at this point that seems to be a sign of this plane. bobby? >> it's worth remembering we have been here before, four or five days after the initial stapance, debris we thought was a debris field the chinese spotted close to the original route of the plane. it turned out not to be. there's a lot of things floating down in the southern indian ocean. containers fall off ships and not as big as 78 feet as far as we can tell but there is a lot of junk floating around in the ocean. >> so it's our responsibility to put into context the possibilities here. and the possibility that it may not be the plane or that the plane may not have landed. our responsibility to try to put everything into context and give the very most realistic assessment of what happened. here with us now former ntsb member and pilot john cox. john is also ceo of safety operating systems and aviation consulting firm. john, given everything we know, all of the parameters that we know and all of the difficulties technically to getting to this debris, what would it take to find this debris and identify it? >> we are off to a good start. the p-8 is one of the most technically advanced airplanes out there. we need eyes on -- human eyes on the debris and we need to find more than two pieces. the thing that's important to realize is there is going to be a lot of small pieces floating. seat cushions and things like that. that is the debris field that will positively identify it from being from malaysia flight 370. once we have that, then utilizing maritime experts such as the ocean graphic institute we take a look at this and that could lead us to the wreckage on the bottom. >> here's a question i will ask you to rule out. everyone has told us we may never find the debris. we have also been told that u.s. authorities don't see the same things on their images and they are not sure the debris is there. if the debris is there, what is the shortest amount of time it would take to retrieve it? >> not knowing what shipping and assets available it's a hard question to answer but it's one i'm sure the australian maritime services are looking into. they are putting ships there as quickly as they can get them. not only militarily but i understand commercial ships are en route to try to retrieve this debris if it's there. >> we have a lot of questions for you, but given the fact that you're a former member of the ntsb, you're a former pilot and you are also though. of an aviation safety firm, given your expertise, what, if everything that has been put on the table about this missing plane, can be ruled out at this point? >> let me make one correction for you. i have worked with the ntsb many decades but have never worked for them. >> okay. fair enough. >> i just want to make that correction. everything in my mind is on the table. i've been an accident investigator for something over 30 years. we do not have enough evidence in any one direction to rule anything out. so we are letting the evidence unfold. the search teams are doing exactly what we would hope they would do. they are looking at evidence as it's presented. they are assessing for credibility and they are applying assets to that. in my mind everything is still open about what occurred on malaysian flight 370. nothing has been off -- is taken off the table. >> as we talk about the two suspect pieces that came up on the satellite images, one being 78 feet in length, the other being 15 feet in length, just some facts about debris fields from a 777 potentially as was mentioned. seat back cushions are designed to float and aluminum parts will sink in rough seas. they use composite materials and some light materials and trap air inside and those parts will float for some time. that means we will potentially see, like the france flight 447 was also made of that composite material. letting up those air pockets to provide it to float. john, let me talk to you about the p-8. you talk about the sophistication of the poseidon is refueling and its team getting rest before traveling back out. talk to us about the ability of the p-3s. some people on twitter and online have been asking me to ask people about the p-3s and that they may be the real aircraft that gets to the debris first or finds it first. >> the p-3 built by lockheed is a four-engine turboprop and it has been a mainstay for marine patrol for various militaries around the world for literally decades. it has been updated with improvements in sensors and radar but one of the big advantages it has is it can spend hours upon hours on station looking, not only visually, but also with sophisticated radar. the fact the p-3s are out there from australia and new zealand i think is a very valuable asset and it's entirely possible that any one of these air. assets could be the ones out there finding the debris. authorities are looking into both the pilot and his first officer for more clues as to what happened on flight 370. the fbi's role is focused on retrieving deleted computer data from the captain's home flight simulator that was fairly expensive relatively and an elaborate setup in his home with three monitors and some flight simulators have less. files were erased on the simulator on february 3rd. the first time american assistance has been requested to help solve the flight's disappearance. president obama spoke about the search calling it a top priority for the united states and saying the government has made every resource available to the mailingsian government. joining us now, nbc news terrorism analyst and former fbi special agent don borelli. don, what questions come to your mind as it per taintains to thet and the flight simulator and other information we can rely on. >> we have had several questions throughout this investigation and that is kind of where, why, and how. hopefully, the new lead based on the satellite imagery will give us the where piece but the why and how has still been up for grabs and that is what the fbi is going to attempt to try to help the malaysians answer if this was a deliberate act and a criminal act, and we have been operating under the asimgs that that is what it is, hopefully, some of the information retrieved from not only the flight simulator but other electronic data in the possession of the pilot and co-pilot will answer some of those questions. the fbi has a very specialized computer response team that can extract data even when somebody believes they have deleted it and i've talked to a number of people involved in that and they will tell you there is no such thing as a deleted file unless you're extremely sophisticated. the fbi has tools that can extract that information and hopefully give them some of those electronic bread crumbs and leads that will allow some of those unanswered questions to now get answers. >> i just -- personally, i'd like to ask you, the ambiguity that we are still discussing here. well, it possibility isn't this and there is debris here and we don't know what it is and the flight path and the projected area we are looking for is like 28 million miles. have you ever seen anything like this before in your life. >> no. >> how unprecedented is? this how frustrating is this? and why don't we have anything clear at this point in this day and age? >> it is mind boggling that it's gone on this long and we are still asking some of the same basic questions. but this is a very complex situation. and it takes so many integrated entities working together. you've got all this technical information that is coming in from satellites and from the avionics and the investigators on the ground are trying to put together the pieces and that human profile of the pilot and the co-pilot and anybody else that could have had access and the knowledge to fly the plane. and then it's compounded by the fact that you got so many countries trying to work together and it may be a piece of information that you need. it resides in a country they are not willing to share. it's so difficult. >> i know it's complicated having said that in this day and age where you can find anything. i mean, anything. that this plane has gone 13 days later, 777. bobby ghosh, chime in and take it to john cox, if you could. >> the research folks at "time" magazine looked into this and we believe this is the longest a commercial flight plane has been missing unheard from, unknown for in modern aviation history. not talking about the e rarks of amelia earhart here but in modern times a plane has not gone missing for such a long time. we take for granted with the few taps of our keyboard we can find where our i-phone is if it's missing. and in an era of google maps how a plane this large can be missing? it's 200 feet and has 250 people on board. steve, you're a pilot. this is baffling. we get on planes and people know where we are. >> you know prosecute saturday nig -- from saturday night, i'm upset they can turn transponders off. why? >> every piece of equipment is able to turn off in case there is a fire or some electrical malfunction. there may be another protocol or system that prevents this from happening. in terms of planes disappearing, a 727 disappeared in the andes and they didn't find it for 20 years. don, might want to comment on this. he was very polite. not only is this investigation complicated by a lot of countries but the malaysians have handled it as badly you can imagine an investigation to be handled. they wouldn't bring in international help and not let the fbi in and released information that turned out to be wrong and released other information and i think it leads to a lot of the frustration and unhappiness we have that we know so little is the way the investigation has been handled. >> thailand took ten days to say we spot something on our radar and we didn't toll you because you didn't ask. astonishing to think 26 countries looking for this plane and the authorities didn't say we did spot something on our radar, would you like to know what it was? >> let's just give facts about the size of the 777. wing span 212 feet. tail height 61 feet. john, to you. i know we are all surprised about the lack of findings so far on a 13th day. what does it say to you about what investigators should be looking for at this point in an investigation? >> i think most importantly as we found with the air france 447 accident, first, we have to look for debris. from the beginning i had very serious doubts that the airplane was on land. a lot of speculation about it but for the reasons just cited the airplane is so large and trying to hide something of that size is very, very unlikely. so i have felt from the beginning that we were looking at a water event and it was going to unfold somewhat similar to air france 447. the only thing one of the large differences is we knew the flight path track for air france and we did not have that opportunity here. to have an airplane this far off the flight plane track to not been able to positively identify it, after 12 days, is, in fact, unprecedented. this has complicated significantly the search as well as the initial stages of the investigation. i think the cooperation shown by the 26 countries is very, very commendable. i think it's note worthy. we have kept the focus of the world on finding the cause of this accident. so i think that there's some good things have come out of it but, most importantly, i think a lot of learning has come out of it. >> you mention the fact of the countries involved in this. the assets lent to this search. do you think as we look for the answers that down the line there is going to be a larger discussion like we have had in this country about air marshals and sky marshals used in an international capacity if we find out there was somebothing foul play on board? >> i think right now we have evidence that says a transponder that ceased to function. whether it was turned off, whether it failed or whether it was deprived of electrical power, we don't know conclusively. we have an acars unit that had data shut off. that is an important piece of evidence because it sets a likely degree of like lie hood of a deliberate act. the radios were not used on the last transmission. that says they could have failed or not used. we don't have conclusive evidence. before we speculate about what is the outcome we need to be very careful not to overrun the evidence and put it in place and get the cause of this figured out and then figure out and determine what the appropriate acts are. >> that's fair. we have so much to bring together as we cover this breaking news this morning. john cox, thank you very much. don borelli, thank you as well. ten days ago, former ntsb investigator greg fieth said a strong chance the jet was in the indian ocean. he joins us next on his thoughts on the breaking developments. stay with us. salesperson #1: the real deal's the passat tdi clean diesel gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. salesperson #2: actually, we're throwing in a $1,000 fuel reward card. we've never done that. that's why there's never been a better time to buy a passat tdi clean diesel. husband: so it's like two deals in one? avo: during the salesperson #2: first ever exactly. volkswagen tdi clean diesel event, get a great deal on a passat tdi, that gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. and get a $1000 dollar fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. as we cover the breaking news on missing flight 370 and the possible debris found off the coast of australia, we want to now turn to denver, colorado where we are joined by senior air safety investigator with the national transportation safety board greg feith. you have been on this story with us from the very beginning and it looks like we are zoned in on an area that you brought up to us very early on here. the latest information about this debris field that is being found, the size and scope of the pieces that are being seen on satellite images but also the fact that those images are four days old and those pieces could be well under water and we are talking about water that is two and a half miles deep. please pare down what hope we can have here at confirming anything about what might have been seen. >> one of the big keys in all of this is that when the search effort up north really failed to turn up any kind of evidence, especially in the water where we all thought if something catastrophic happened with the airplane we would have found evidence almost immediately or within a few days. but then the faa and boeing folks decided that they were going to look and see if they couldn't figure out the furthest this airplane would go before fuel exhaustion and if there was an attack to drive or land the airplane in the water how far would the airplane get and why that search zone moved down to australia. when i was talking about it ten days ago, i was looking at people that were not wanting to be identified, not wanting to be tracked and the best place to go is that southerly route where there is no radar coverage and no satellite coverage and you can disappear basically into the middle of nowhere in that ocean. >> given that -- actually, you had said that quite sometime ago. are you hopeful from what we have heard? we hear from kerry sanders in washington talking to u.s. officials pretty much debunking what australian officials who have a very good incredible setup according to steve rattner, they seem to feel they found something. what do you feel about the information that is coming? >> i think there has to be cautious optimism. when we got the information from the chinese and they showed this photo from space of this debris, whatever it was in the south china sea, everybody was hopeful. but i was very skeptical and i think others were as well because we had had so much traffic already in that area. we had already searched the area pretty thorough. then to have this photo show up and say here is this large piece of something, this object out there that why didn't they see it before that because it was that large? here now we have some sort of object or objects in an area where the search zone was narrowed down and it was very targeted and very specific. so it does give us a little bit of optimism but, again, from space, trying to identify something with a fuzzy picture is very difficult and because of weather, they really can't get down there to do any kind of visual confirmation of those objects, whatever they are and to see if it's not an earpant cargo container that fell off a ship. but something that looks like it would have come from an airplane. >> steve rattner? a question for greg? >> so, greg -- i take your point. i think we can be somewhat more optimistic there is something there but we still need to be very cautious about what is there. we will what unfolds in time. i want to go back to your point about the plane turning south which is something we have known for some days based on the pings and the fact we knew it didn't go north. here is really my question. they turn south. they fly for seven more hours. they are 1,500 miles from australia when they run out of fuel. why on earth would they do that knowingly? what is the possible explanation for them being there other than the possibility that the crew was dead and the plane was on autopilot? >> steve, i could give you a hundred different reasons and make up what i think. i can't get into the pilot's head. what i felt, just from, you know, the gathering of evidence, people that i've talked to, you know, if you have a rogue pilot, if you have somebody that is trying to make a statement, it's obvious that they didn't want to be followed so they turned off the transponder, they turned off the acars which are basically the tracking devices on the airplane, they got out of radar coverage so you lose the skin paint which is, you know, basic radar. they go off into an area for where basically the airplane may never be found. you don't need to make a statement. you don't need to write a treatise or get on the radio and basically say what you're going to do because 13 days into it, we are still talking about it 24/7 and we may be talking about it infinitum after this. the way i see it as an investigator this could also be a form of terrorism and i don't mean that word to be, you know, frightful if that is the perfect way to describe it. if we never have closure. because we are humans, we need closure and final itity and we l always ask was it an intentional act or piratesy? that puts fear into us who fly thinking could that happen again? that is a form of terrorism because this person didn't need to say a word and we are still talking about it. >> we are in need of facts now on the 13th day. greg, i want to ask you about if this is a true water event and the objects of indication are of concern or of suspect or 78 feet long and 15 feet long, if this type of plane, the 777 were to create a debris field what is likely to match up with 78-foot or 15-foot object in your mind? >> there's two parts of the airplane really that could match up to that. one, it could be a wing panel because the wing span is over 200 feet. it could be a large section of wing panel. or it could be a large section of the fuj laselage, whether th crown portion or belly of the aircraft and could be a large section of fuselage. you have to look at the shape again. that is the thing i was looking for with the chinese photo to see if it was square versus some tapered shape. if 8:00 wing it will have a taper because the wing is wider at the fuselage than at the wing tip and could help if we could get high resolution pictures and really help determine what part of the airplane it might be. >> greg, we want you to jump into the conversation any time. stand by. joining us now from washington, nbc's tom costello. >> reporter: let's reset this for those of you just waking up this morning. malaysians are saying these images do appear to be credible. as greg was talking about 79 feet across on one of them. the other one 16 feet across. the 777 wing span is 200 feet and tail 60 feet. this is about as far south as we would expect this plane to go. all the way down here at the very end of its fuel run down to about three to four hours off of perth, australia. let me show you one more close-up now. i want to get to the other close-up that we have. i just messed up my board. let me go over here. sorry, guys. here we go. tight shot of the zone. this is what the ntsb had identified as a possible location where this plane might have ended up. a p-8a aircraft in is the zone and several hours today and finding nothing and using sophisticated radar. an australian plane went in there and planes are scheduled to return to this search zone. >> hi, everyone. >> reporter: it's a flight simulator built from off the shelf components popular with aviation enthusiasts but some of the files from the captain's computer were deleted a month before 370's final flight and could be nothing more than computer housekeeping but mailingsian investigators are helping the fbi for help. >> we are in the process of determine what happened there and helping in any way we can. >> reporter: fbi agents will examine duplicate hard drives to recreate the deleted files and computer forensic experts say it should not be difficult. >> you will probably recover last several flights took on the simulator and where they were taking off from and landing and what kind of aircraft using in the simulator. >> reporter: with the help of the ntsb, australian search teams narrowed their search to the indian ocean. two potential flight tracks using mathematical. if the wreckage is there they hope to find the black boxes. one of the men who found the air france black boxes after two years in the atlantic says it won't be easy or cheap. >> on paper it may seem fairly straightforward. but out in the ocean the ocean is large and the plane becomes very small. when you're in the thick of it, you can see how easy it can be to miss something. >> reporter: time is slipping away. they have got only 17 days until the batteries on those underwater locating pingers run out. if this plane is in this area, it could be in very deep water. 10 to 16,000 feet of water. as we said, very deep there. an australian naval ship is en route in the area but not expected until sunday or so. a herculean plane will drop buoys to mark the area to make sure they don't lose where they think the general area and a nearby cargo ship is diverting to help as well. we are talking about very rough conditions. nine foot seas and 25 knot winds and poor visibility and that means if this wreckage is, indeed, in this area, it might have already floated for hundreds of miles and one more point. the search area covered an ocean ridge known as the naturalist plateau. it's a large sea shelf and more or less 10,000 feet deep and we are talking about 150 miles wide, 250 miles long. so this is a really deep isolated remote area. again, 16,000 feet deep. guys, back to you. >> tom costello has given us a lot to talk about here. greg, i want to go back to the beginning of his report and the flight simulator owned by the pilot and the deleted piles. what does it tell you, if anything? >> it's going to tell us something once we know what files were deleted. typically, when you have a flight simulator like that you plan the flight and execute the flight and the flight is recorded in a file folder on multiple places on the hard drive. it has a lot of video file associated with it. it takes up a lot of space on the hard drive. i've got a simulator on my computer. i've had to dump some files because you start building a very large file, it seaeats up lot of your hard drive. if the pilot just deleted the file folder because he was trying to save space, i'm not sure we will ever know that because we don't know the plan. but if there are specific files because you have to delete them in various places if they went in and basically took each of those file folders out in multiple places, then that is deliberate because that takes a lot of work. that's an exercise that does take time to do. you have to know where to look and what files to delete and it's not like taking a file folder and drying it to your recycle bin. >> we are waiting to see how the files were deleted. looking at february 3rd and this plane took off on march 8th, as a layman, i think it would be fascinating if the files were deleted moments or days before he took off but then again it's a lead that, obviously, has to be seen through. the other thing i want to bring up and open it up to the table because so much of the hope that these poor families are holding on to has a shelf life, including the black boxes, which tom costello brought up the pings and the different things that could possibly be picked up if they are not too deep under water, upside down, under mud. how close do you have to be to the black boxes and how much time do we have to try and get close to them if they happen to be off the coast of australia two miles under water? >> the audio signal is dependent on a number of conditions, sea state conditions. temperature will affect the distance that the ping will radiate out. of course, where the location of that box is. is it surrounded by wreckage? is the signal being attenuated like you mentioned? it could be yupeds down and buried in the mud and therefore you have to be almost on top of it if you want to get any kind of signal and that acoustic signal is really dictated by sea state. that could either be -- you could be within two miles of it or you'd have to be within 20 feet of it to hear that ping. >> steve rattner has a question and then i want to bring in retired nbc news aviation correspondent bob hager who is standing by. >> happy to have comments and a little point. remember in air france 447 they found the wreckage very quickly but took them two years to recover the black boxes. in other words, the pings had long since stopped happening and that plane was also, i think at 11,000 feet. a little bit shallower but the same depth this plane has had. i think if they find the wreckage, we are not without hope about finding the black boxes but, as you said, the sea conditions, the mud, the silt, how the plane broke up could all make it very, very difficult. >> you bring up a great point, steve. the thing is we would have to find that main wreckage debris field. if the debris is very -- basically, together and not spread out over a long distance, then we have a higher probability. but if that wreckage is spread over a very large area, you could have the tail section in one part where the cockpit voice flight data recorder normally mounted and have that debris field spread over half a mile. we don't know how the airplane has impacted the water. that could make it very difficult after about 30 days. only because unless we can actually map it with side scan sonar and send a remote operated vehicle with a camera which this did he with 447 what they did is scour the wreckage looking for the orange colored cover of the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. >> as promised, bob hager is joining us. what does it say to you now that we have gotten this credible lead with the caveat it is not indicative of any debris field but what does 2 say to you they have an area they can focus on in the search for answers? >> i think that's very, very important. because this is an investigation where we have had just little bits and pieces so far. nothing seems to make sense so we really need some physical forensic evidence here, so having this sliver of hope that this might be where the debris is very important. but a word of caution. this is all going to take time. we are just going into nighttime over there. it takes days for ships to get on scene. the weather is bad. the satellite photos are four days old. so this is a sliver of hope. it's going to require for the viewing public and reading public, listening public, it's going to require patience here because to find out whether this is a real debris from the plane, it's a matter of some days yet before ships will be there and we can really tell, i think. >> bob, in all of your reporting as we are learning about the size and scope of these objects, 78 to 79 feet for one of the objects, 16, 15 to 16 feet for the other object, does that match up in your mind to any other reports of water events concerning planes like this in your past history that you would say that sounds accurate? >> yeah, you get big pieces like that but the point is that the kind of pieces that are going to stay on the surface tend to be skin and so they are not going -- not apt to be of that much value in the investigation itself. their real value is at least zeroing in on the stuff. at least you get where the area is you want to go for it. >> bobby, you have more on the pilot and insight there and we are going to hold on to that because we have a lot to get to. up next much more on today's breaking news. a live report from malaysia is just ahead on "morning joe." stay with us. no two people have the same financial goals. pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. talk to a pnc investments financial advisor today. ♪ we are following the breaking news on missing flight 370 and the possible debris that has been found off the coast of australia. we do want to turn to the other big story that has been brewing all week. ukraine. the latest on the crisis there that continues to unfold. just one day after russian president vladimir putin declared crimea a part of russia. ukraine says it plans to pull its troops out of the region. the announcement after russian forces seized control of two different military bases in crimea including its naval headquarters. the men stormed into the building after knocking down the gates and raised the russian flag. vice president joe biden, who was in lithuania to meet with the allies and in the region said it was a sign that moscow was continuing to head down a, quote, dark path. while president he obama said president putin's latest actions are a sign of weakness, he ruled out the use of force. >> we are are not going to be getting into a military, you know, excursion in ukraine. what we are going to do is mobilize our diplomatic resources to make sure we have a strong international coalition that sends a clear message which ukraine should decide their own destiny. russia, right now, is violating international law and the sovereignty of another country. >> joining us from washington is former secretary of state under president bill clinton, madeleine albright. all columnist and editor for "the washington post" david ignatius. on set deputy managing editor of "time" magazine is radika jones. madam secretary, i'll start with you. where are you concerned this is heading? >> i am very concerned that this is not going in the right direction, because the russians, in addition to seizing the base, as you have pointed out, are also making all kinds of advances into other parts of ukraine in terms of issuing passports and doing a lot of propaganda. but what i think is really important is the president is going to europe next week and he has the opportunity, along with our allies, to make a very strong statement about the unity of the west and not allowing ukraine to be a country that is completely, in some way, destroyed, and not allowed to have the people make their own decisions. so i think it's a crucial time and absolutely essential that the west remain united. putin can either divide the west or make clear that we are in all of this together. >> i'd like to know what we can do, madam secretary. after you speak, david ignatius, jump in as well. one former national security adviser has called this one of the most important leadership moments for our president of this generation. what are the risks at this point for the administration in terms of navigating forward? is it being too tepid or is it being too strong? and what is at stake, ultimately, if we cannot get vladimir putin to back down? >> i think that the administration is going about this in the right way, just the way the president spoke about the importance of diplomacy, that continues to be a very important tool. and the economic tools in terms of ratcheting up the sanctions. i also do think, in listening to the secretary-general of nato who has been in washington there are ways that nato itself can make very clear. also vice president biden did, about our support for other countries. the capability of assisting ukrainians because they are pulling their military out, they are going to need help. and i think that all of the tools need to be put into play. and i do think that this is an absolutely important turning point, because it is a change, as you pointed out in the lead-in, what the world order has looked like since the end of the cold war and president putin is basically devising his own history and we can't allow him to lie to his own people and the rest of the world. >> david ignatius? >> yes. i wanted to ask secretary albright whether she thinks-the-united states and allies in the west can build up the government of ukraine so it's a strong solid western leaning country and, in that sense, confounds putin's hopes of keeping it as a docile buffer state? that seems to me the obvious. i think what you think, secretary albright, knowing that part of the world so well? >> david, i'm glad you framed it that way, because i think the most important venue is actually ukraine. they need a lot of help. they, themselves, have admitted that they have not had good governance in the last years, but the fact that all of those people were out there in maydon, they want to have a country in which they are able to have diggived lives and make decisions about their own life and have what i would call a western perspective, have the capability of part of being of europe and, yet, not be in a battle zone with the russians. it's a very complicated history. i do think -- and the tragedy of crimea are many but one of them is the diverted attention you've been talking about, in terms of how to get that society back on its feet. it is going to need help economically. it is going to need help in terms of governance. i'm chairman of the board of the national democratic institute. we are there in terms of trying to figure out how to be helpful on the election that is going to happen. but it's going to take a long time. and we do need to keep sustained interest because it is absolutely crucial, but we have to keep our mind on ukraine, as you've pointed out. difficult, long term, essential. >> the cover of "time" is this crisis. what will people get out of this coverage here? i think americans need to read in. >> our cover story is by the historian robert kaplan and puts this news it context. he says in order to understand what is happening in ukraine and in other hot spots on the globe these days, forget the world is flat and forget the free technological idea of democratic ideals. this is russian feeling a claim to this territory and warm water port and is on putin's mind. whatever we think how westernized we can make ukraine it's always going to be in the east and need a stable relationship with russia. >> in putin's mind, bobby ghosh, is what i'm worried about. this is on the cover of "time." i'm worried about that that. should i be? >> you should be. he thinks of himself -- a lot of suggestions does he have a cold war mentality? it suggests he is thinking about russian empire and going back to the czars and reclaiming crimea and message to his own people we are claiming what is rightfully ours and what his popularity has gone up in russia. russia accepts this. >> david you take it and take us into putin's mind. does he know what his end game is at this point? my father had some other choice words what he thinks of his perception of the world and i'm concerned he might be correct. announced the annexation of ukraine. it was an extraordinary sort of self-portrait. and what he in effect said was he was nostalgic for the world of the cold war in which a strong russia, strong soviet union confronted and checked the united states. and he implied he wants to go back to that kind of world. and i thought this was a speech that really should put thoughtful people on notice that putin poses a long-term threat. he has a weak country. he's holding a weak hand. but he's playing it very aggressively. the use of russian special forces in the invasion of crimea was superb. so i'd ask secretary albright, dealing with this putin long term, do you think we need to be more vigilant? were you at all distressed to hear president obama rule out the use of force in helping ukraine, for example? >> and what would you do? >> well, i do think we need to be more vigilant. and those of us that have dealt with putin knows how he thinks, and he really is nostalgic and believes that he's some kind of a new czar. so i do think -- i think that -- when people talk about military force, they always think boots on the ground. there are obviously other ways to think about military force, and i do think that nato and through a variety of exercises and support, i think that there is a way that that tool has to also be on the table, and vigilance. and one of our other problems, and it came up with the way you talked about ukraine, david generally, is we have a very short attention span. we have to see this as a long-term problem. we worked in the '90s to try to get russia to be a part of the system. we did everything we possibly could. and i think that they now are in a process of isolating themselves. it is dangerous. this is a game changer. and i think -- i know we're all focused on the airplane. but the bottom line is, this has really, truly long-term implications and we all need to focus on how to deal with ukraine, how to deal with u.s.-european relations, try to get our economic treaties -- trade treaties done. and then focus on our relations with russia. turning point, i'm very glad the "time" has it on the cover, and i'm very glad to have been a part of this discussion. >> i appreciate it. i totally agree with you. i'm dealing with competing news interests here. but certainly, ukraine is our focus here on "morning joe" and has been since the story broke. former secretary of state madeleine albright, thank you so much. come back. >> thank you. >> david ignatius, thank you for coming again this week. radhika jones, always good to see you. the "time" cover is right on target. >> thank you. >> right on target. as you heard from the secretary herself. still ahead, we turn back to the breaking news. two large objects spotted in the indian ocean as crews search for the missing plane. a live report from malaysia just ahead on "morning joe." ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you outlive your money? 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>> yes. because it belongs to god. >> reporter: in preparation for news from the search and rescue teams, ambulances have been stationed outside the relatives' homes in case some cannot cope. >> for now, we are on more stand-by. >> reporter: you're on stand-by? >> yeah. >> reporter: on stand-by in case the worst possible news? >> yeah. >> reporter: counselors will help. for now, they say relatives are hanging onto every new word, every new fact, and half hoping, half dreading what they might learn. and i'm told that some of the relatives are being asked if they want to travel to australia, so that may be a measure of how seriously the officials are taking this. they've waited all of these days, and now, under even more tension, they have to wait even longer. >> yeah. and the video from malaysia on the officials handling the families there is incredibly hard to watch from keir's previous report. thank you. all right. we're going to continue our coverage here. we'll be right back live with much more "morning joe" straight ahead. we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? 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reporters earlier this morning with the very latest they had. >> so relatively indistinct on the imagery. i don't profess to be an expert in assessing the imagery. but those who are expert indicate they are credible sightings. the indication to me is of objects that are reasonable size and are probably awash with water bobbing up and down out of the surface. >> the objects in the satellite images which were talken four days ago may be difficult to locate, but are believed to be as large as 78 feet wide. right now, officials are calling this their best lead. however, there is reportedly poor visibility in the area, and the waters there are believed to be much deeper than originally thought, about two and half miles. young also spoke about what happens if the planes are able to locate and find debris. >> the most likely scenario is that an aircraft will find an object, if it is findable, and then report back an accurate gps position, and amsar would task the ship to proceed to the area and attempt to see it. that would be our first chance to get a close-up look at whatever the objects might be and progressively advance the identification of whether they're associated with the search. >> mika, it was this morning that malaysia's transport minister had said the search is continuing in both northern and southern corridors of the indian ocean. nbc's kerry sanders has been following the developments all night for us. kerry joins us now. kerry, as we talk about the caveat here, it's credible but unconfirmed. talk about the search that has taken place, especially with the p-8, the aircraft lent from the u.s. navy. >> the key is, if these objects are findable. i'll take you down to the area we're talking about. so as we look at the map, this is where the target area has been, where they were doing an initial search, and that search was established because the ntsb said they believed that this made sense of where the plane could have possibly travelled and would have run out of fuel. so as we go down to the next map and we take a look, that search area is 1,500 miles southwest of perth. that is where we have the aircraft flying from to do their search. it's a p-8 from the united states, a p-3 from australia, and another p-3 from new zealand. the real target area that they're looking at, though, where this photograph from the satellite is actually just a little bit south of the search area. so the planes came into this area. what's disappointing is we had the p-8 come into this area, and they searched down here for about four hours with some extremely high-tech equipment. and as they looked at that area, they did not see anything. for four hours. and this high-tech gear can penetrate through bad weather. it doesn't matter whether it's daylight or nighttime hours, and it seems about 10,000 square miles. so that flight has returned to perth. the crew will get some rest. the aircraft will be refuelled, and it'll go back out. the p-3, which is from australia, was in the area. it was having some problems with the weather. we have sea state of about nine-foot swells, 25-knot winds and getting cloudy in the area. that was affecting some of the gear on board, the australian p-3, so they have made their way back. if there's an excitement and hope that perhaps we have located a general area where the plane may have gone down, there's disappointment that when they went in to do the redundant checks with the p-3s and the radar, they did not find anything that substantiated what those satellite photographs showed. >> all right. nbc's kerry sanders. so i want to get to a couple of things that may lead to facts. we have, as kerry presented to us, internationally a debate over whether or not there is debris on four-day-old satellite images coming from australia, not backed up by american information. that hope, clinging to this potential debris, which could be two and a half miles down below sea -- the top of the water. and that debris holds onto hope that it might be the plane, which it might lead us to the possibility of black boxes, that have a 30-day life span if they are even findable. that is hope loosely strung together. and we're holding onto it, because quite frankly, the ambiguity is unprecedented. losing a plane this size into thin air, number one. and i think never finding it, most people know, has implicati implications, as well, in terms of the state of our terror around the world and organizations that may or may not have been behind it, if something nefarious happened, and also how does a plane this size get lost? it can't be, which is why the investigation will continue. but as we string together hope, we should string together facts, as well. the one thing we do know is the pilot of this plane had an expensive flight simulator in his home. not unusual. pilots are kind of obsessive people. they like to fly. steve rattner. they love what they do, and perhaps would bring a simulator into their homes, it wouldn't be the first time that happened. this one had three screens. it was considered more expensive, more kind of beefed-you up more than others, and now we know there are delighted files. files deleted from the simulator on february 3rd. does that tell you anything? those are facts. but do they lead us anywhere, bobby? >> we know actually quite a lot more about the pilot and co-pilot. ever since the malaysian prime minister said a human hand was involved in changing the direction of the flight -- >> that's right. another fact. >> -- scores, maybe hundreds of journalists, have descended on the pilot and the co-pilot and tried to find out, spoken to family, spoken to friends, and quite a lot we now know about them. nothing adds up to any suggestion that these were bad guys. the pilot, shah, 53 years ole, we've looked at his social media, when boston bombing happened -- >> read e-mails. >> -- yes. he posted a message of condolence for the victims. this is a guy who liked to cook. we've looked at his facebook account. this is somebody whose youtube video channel is filled with videos about atheism, nothing to suggest a religious fanatic. the co-pilot, young, dashing, liked to flirt with female passengers, brought them into the cockpit from time to time. the two did not request to fly with each other. so no suggestion this was some sort of a -- >> conspiracy between two pilots. >> -- working on this together. we know quite a lot about the guys. the fbi is now looking at the deleted files you mentioned. but nothing adds up to any suggestion -- >> other passengers? other passengers? we have greg feith and steve here, but other passengers -- and kasie as well. >> no other passengers. we looked at the two iranians traveling on false passports. they were most likely illegal immigrants, looking to start a new life somewhere from beijing, probably trying to get into europe. there is nobody on the plane. we've had two weeks and we've been scouring all of the information we can get, and in this day and age, we can get a lot of information. nobody on that plane fits the profile of a bad guy. >> you have what we're looking at and where we're searching. can you show that to us now and make a point? >> i just -- one point, everything bobby said is exactly right. the fact is, we've been searching 11, 12 days and we know nothing about anybody on that plane that caused a suspicion. the pilot was an 18,000-hour pilot. the co-pilot was engaged, i think, add a couple of facts to what you said. there's nothing that shows it. but let me just show you why i think this australian thing has captivated people. because what we know is that when the plane took off and moved westward, and after the communication systems was disabled, it was tracked by a satellite, an inmar satellite, and it threw one of two arcs, either up here or down here. if it went to the north, it would have been detected by ground radar that belonged to somebody. increasingly, people thought it was headed to the south. and then, separately the ntsb of the u.s. created another flight track, but basically got you to the same area. and so, when the australians started searching in this -- in this area down here, it seemed -- it seemed very plausible that this is where they would be concentrating their efforts. >> interesting. >> so it all sort of adds up to what we expected, with one big question mark that we're all going to wonder about -- why did the plane fly seven and a half hours into the middle of nowhere and run out of fuel, if that's where the plane went down? >> thomas roberts. >> joining us is retired american airlines pilot, flight instructor, tom casey. mika has big questions about the flight simulator, the simulator that was in the home of the pilot. >> bobby debunked them all, but go ahead. >> the sophistication that people talk about the realm of what this man had in his home, that is common for people like yourself, flight instructors, people who love flying to have -- >> no, that's -- that's a busman's holiday for me. i do own a private airplane that i fly with great joy. but that said, i think that a lot of people are interested in computers, and the computer technology as it applies to flight simulation is very sophisticated. he might have been -- this might have been his hobby. he might have been sharing skills with friends. who knows? i think with respect to how that pertains to this flight, it was either an intervention or a rogue crew. and if it was a rogue crew, we don't have the why. and the why is so important as an aviator. i like to feel the pilots are stable and responsible -- >> right. >> -- and wouldn't even consider something like this. so that question remains, and it's a difficult one. >> but as we look at the experience of this pilot and knowing that this simulator exists and that he's probably using it for all kinds of course interruptions or things to enhance his skill set. >> right. >> does that send red flags to you? does that say this person was the most capable to be at the helm of a plane like this if there was something that went wrong with a rogue crew? >> right. i think it speaks to a pilot with great enthusiasm for his skill set. and it doesn't -- as bobby was talking about, there's nothing in his past that indicates -- >> right. >> -- madness. and this is an act of a madman. >> people do snap. but the thing is, you know, you made the point, mika, this is quite expensive equipment. he was a captain for 20 years. malaysian airlines is world-class airlines with handsome salary. >> can i ask you a question about malaysia, how they handle their airlines in terms of safety, conduct on board a plane? but, also, completely different topic, possibly unrelated, but connections with terrorist activity? >> well, i have flown malaysian activities several times. i lived in southeast asia. i found it an excellent airline. the way the ground authorities have handled the aftermath of this crisis has been -- >> horrendous. >> -- really horrendous, but i never encountered anything on a flight short of a world-class airline. there's not a lot of terrorist activity in malaysia. there are a couple of groups in southeast asia who have had in the past some connections to people in malaysia, but it's comparable, again, to neighbors like indonesia and southern thailand. there's much less terrorist activity there. the malaysian internal police and security services have stamped out quite successfully in the past any kind of terrorist activity. none of this is dispositive, i should hasten that. people do snap. but at the moment, we can't really -- >> that doesn't -- there's no indication -- >> and it took two people to snap, right? because we know the co-pilot made the last radio transmission two minutes before the transponder -- >> one would follow the other. >> yes. something had to be going on beyond simply one of them snapping. coming up, former ntsb investigator greg feith said there was a strong chance the missing jet was in the southern indian ocean. he rejoins us next with his thoughts on today's developments and this debris field that may exist off the coast of australia. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. feed it, and care for it, don't we grow something more? we grow big celebrations, and personal victories. we grow new beginnings, and better endings. grand gestures, and perfect quiet. we grow escape, bragging rights, happier happy hours. so let's gro something greater with miracle-gro. what will you grow? share your story at miraclegro.com. what will you grow? ♪ ♪ no two people have the same financial goals. pnc works with you to understand yours and help plan for your retirement. visit a branch or call now for your personal retirement review. ...return on investment wall isn't a street... isn't the only return i'm looking forward to... for some, every dollar is earned with sweat, sacrifice, courage. which is why usaa is honored to help our members with everything from investing for retirement to saving for college. our commitment to current and former military members and their families is without equal. well, we wait to see if the satellites pictures are from flight 370, there are still questions why the flight disappeared. several possible scenarios are being discussed by aviation experts, and by those following the story online. one scenario is there was an electrical fire that forced the pilots to take emergency action. this might explain why the plane went offcourse. the crew in the cockpit was attempting to find an airport to make an emergency landing. another possibility is something called catastrophic decompression. the crew would have lost consciousness from an unplanned drop in cabin pressure. in that case, the plane could have continued flying, however the plane's flight change was programmed. so then, i wonder if this theory would be ruled out? of course, a hijacking has not been ruled out. but there is also a theory that suggests the plane was crashed after an aborted hijacking. and then, there's the possibility that the plane actually landed somewhere. there are hundreds of potential, lesser-known airfields and abandoned airstrips that the plane could have landed in technically, excluding major airports, which would make its whereabouts immediately known. rejoining us from denver, colorado, former senior air safety investigator with the national transportation and safety board, greg feith. any of those theories stand out to you? any you want to debunk right now given your expertise? >> well, again, you can never rule it all out. but all of them are really far fetched from the standpoint, if you had an inflight fire, it would have been a catastrophic event. i've heard a lot of the experts talk about a fire in the center pedestal that knocked out the transponder, knocked out the acars system. there are seven different radios on that airplane. when i did the investigation of the valujet accident, that crew had an airplane on fire and yet they were still able to get a mayday call off, of smoke in the cabin, smoke in the cockpit, we're coming back to the miami airport. so, i mean, there's nothing -- short of what happened with twa where the airplane literally exploded out of the sky, they couldn't get a radio call off, if there was a fire, wiring in airplanes today are required to be self-extinguishing, so if you have a wire that catches fire and the insulation starts to burn, it is not allowed by regulation to continue to burn, because we have that in years past with capton wiring that put off toxic smoke and odor that incapacitated and killed pilots and passengers. so the fire thing would -- and, plus, you have miles and miles and miles of wire. you'd have to get the right wire bundle to take out all of those systems. i discount the fire. plus, the airplane was flyable. it was powered, because the acars at least was still pinging the satellite. if this fire was going and nobody was attending to it, you'd expect that the airplane would have burned itself out of the sky, and that didn't happen. so there's a number of -- i can give you an argument for all of those. the hijacking? if you're going to hijack the airplane, aren't you going to hijack it to somewhere? even if it's an aborted hijack, you fly it to australia. you fly it to india. you fly it to a piece of property, not out to the indian ocean necessarily. and getting back to tom and when he was talking about, you know, something happening with this crew member and having to really go rogue, if you remember about eight, nine months ago, we had a captain on a u.s. airline who left the cockpit and basically started the message to the passengers in the back. the first officer found that that was dangerous, and actually locked him out of the cockpit and put the airplane on the ground, only to find out that this captain had had some -- some mental issues that really did not surface until that day on that flight. so you can never rule out -- i know what they're doing and looking at the background of both of the pilots, they are upstanding guys according to the friends and family and everything else. you just don't know what's going on on this day like that pilot here in the u.s. >> bobby? >> greg, we've looked at the maps of the dots on that -- in that part of the world where the plane could potentially have landed. but can you actually take a 777 and land it on the ground somewhere without being picked up by radar at all? i know you can fly thousands of miles into the ocean and not be picked up by radar. but on land, in countries like india and pakistan, which are constantly sort of watching each other, australia, a country with quite sophisticated radar technology. can you actually do that? >> i think you answered your own question. you had it right. you're going into a sophisticated country with a sophisticated air defense system. they're going to pick you up in some way, shape, or form. you look at thailand. they came forward, yeah, this airplane breached our air defense system. we picked it up as a primary target. they're not as large as australia. they aren't as large as india. and you know that because of all of the political issues and the environment that are going on right now in that part of the world, you have a lot of trained eyes both from the ground and from space looking at all of these areas. so it would be very hard to put this airplane on the ground. plus, right after this event, they were using space assets to try and find an airplane -- or some object the size of a 777 in a place where it normally wouldn't be. >> so just to sum up, and i think agree with greg, i think it's impossible could you have had an electrical fire. because this plane flew for a total over eight hours and it would not have flown with an electrical fire. i think the decompression theory, maybe later, there may have been multiple events at different points in time, but the idea it's what caused the initial deviation also seems absurd, because somebody turned off the transponder, somebody cut the communications with acars. nobody would be doing that if they were in an emergency state. they would, in fact, try to make their position known, get help, so forth. so that makes no sense at the time in which the plane made its turn. it landed somewhere idea, i think we all have debunked and i agree with the debunking of it. so it does get you back, and call it hijacking or call it some pilot snapping, call it some human intervention, but it's just very hard to see how all of this happened without some human being -- whether it's a pilot, a passenger, or somebody else -- getting involved in the flying of this airplane. >> and if i could just jump in real quick, you know, one of the things that i haven't really heard was what the -- what the time of day was as far as light condition when they finally got the last ping. if it was still nighttime, if it was still dark, you would have a very difficult time making a successful ditching. because unlike captain sullenberger, when he put the airplane down in the hudson, he had daylight conditions. he was able to see all of those obstructions. he had a lot of visual queues to help him gauge his progress and his altitude above the ground. if this is a night attempt to ditch the airplane in the water, whether it's under intentional conditions or unintentional conditions, you don't have any depth perception. you're really over a black hole. you would have to set up a rate of descent in that airplane that would take you to the water and basically hold it until you hit something, like the water, and at that time, you're going to be hitting it at a very -- a very fast speed. you're going to break that airplane up, you'll break off parts and you should have floating debris. you may have a successful ditch, you may have survivors, but again -- you're just betting on the odds. but that would be an extremely difficult proposition to do a controlled ditching at night. >> greg, let's talk about the facts of what we do know, because we have the co-pilot signing off, saying, "all right, good night," roughly 1:18 a.m., and two minutes later the transponder was turned off. a lot of people say it was unimaginable, within them saying "all right, good night," and that two-minute period of time, somebody could have come into the cockpit to do something more nefarious. in your professional opinion, where do you fall on the automation of transponders? should pilots have access to turn them off? or should they be automated from the ground and out of pilots' control? >> i think with the transponder, we've had this technology for a very long time, and it has worked well. the reason we are able to turn it off is because of ground clutter. the air traffic controllers on ground will get all these data tags laying on top of each other, creates a clutter issue. so you turn it to stand-by. i think after this particular event, i think there has to be a discussion about implementation -- adsb, which is this gps-based tracking system, which is eventually going to replace radar, part of the next gen program, i think this is really going to spawn accelerating that timetable, because right now it's out to 2020. some airplanes are equipped with it. it updates itself every second. it provides information to air traffic controllers. and it gives us ground-to-ground tracking of the airplane. so unlike the radar, where it's ground-based, has to look up and see the airplane, this gps is going to bounce it off the satellite, so no matter where this airplane goes, it's always looking down on it. we should find it, unless it's in a very remote canyon that has a lot of -- a lot of obstructions that blocks the gps signal. >> so just one point on the transponders, and i agree with you, there will be changes both with the use of transponders now and the acceleration of asb but remember one thing about this. even when the transponder was turned off, it could still be tracked by civilian radar. it was less reliable as to altitude, still tracked by military radar. the military radar saw it. once a plane gets a couple hundred miles offshore, transponder on, transponder off, there's no ground-based radar system that will see that plane. the only way that plane could be identified was if they left the acar system on, which they also turned off. so i don't want us to get too folkso focused on the transponder, because it's an important event of what the pilots were trying to do, whoever was in control of the airplane trying to do, but i don't think it would have materially changed our ability to find the plane today. >> you bring up a good point, because every time an airplane flies from the united states to europe and things like that, they're going over the oceanic tracks, you are at an altitude making position reports, because you don't have radar environment, and the transponder isn't interrogated. and really, the transponder only provides separation, tcas separation, traffic avoidance traffic separation, for other airplanes. >> we have the facts about the transponder, when it was turned off. we have facts about when the plane was directed. anything that might give us an indication of what was going on inside this plane when it seemed to vanish into thin air, literally disappear at this point? what we also have are loose pieces of information that might be coming together, and that involves the breaking news this morning of debris field, possibly two big pieces of debris, found off the coast of australia in very deep waters. american investigators and satellite images don't necessarily back up these four-day-old satellite images the australians are putting forward, but they see it as a credible, hopeful sign. we put all of this information into perspective. the conversation will continue. greg feith, thank you. up next, tom costello joins the conversation. he is updating the images from the indian ocean where possible debris may have been found from flight 370, including the challenges, he'll talk about, facing the recovery effort even if we can get to the debris, if we could even ever find a black box, which is, of course, running out of time. the system works. let's say you pay your guy around 2 percent to manage your money. that's not much, you think except it's 2 percent every year. does that make a difference? search "cost of financial advisors" ouch! over time it really adds up. then go to e*trade and find out how much our advice costs. spoiler alert. it's low. really? yes, really. e*trade offers investment advice and guidance from dedicated professional financial consultants. it's guidance on your terms not ours that's how our system works. e*trade. less for us, more for you. is really what makes it slike two deals in one.he $1,000 fuel reward card salesperson #2: actually, getting a great car with 42 highway miles per gallon makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #1: point is there's never been a better time to buy a jetta tdi clean diesel. avo: during the first ever volkswagen tdi clean diesel event get a great deal on a jetta tdi. it gets 42 highway miles per gallon. and get a $1,000 fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. volkswagen has the most tdi clean diesel models of any brand. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. news from washington. nbc's tom costello, and you have new information on what's taking place with the potential of a debris field. >> the malaysians are calling these images potentially credible. the largest piece, appears to be, we believe, 79 feet or so. these are the images up on the interactive screen. 79 feet for one piece. and the other piece, we believe, is about 16 feet or so. now, to give you some perspective, a 777 has a wing span of about 200 feet. the tail itself is usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 feet or so. and this is happening very far south, of course, in this area that had already been identified by the ntsb. this area down here. it's about 1,500 miles or so from perth. that's about a three to four-hour flight. and so, that means the crews are flying in here. it takes them three to four hours to fly in. they search for four hours, and then they fly out. already, we've had a u.s. aircraft move in there, an australian aircraft move in there. they haven't seen anything yet. and now, more planes are scheduled to -- rather, more planes are scheduled to return to this very same search zone. the australian prime minister made the dramatic announcement in parliament. >> i would like to inform the house that new and credible information has come to light in relation to the search for malaysia airlines flight mh370 in the southern indian ocean. >> reporter: images captured by satellite may be pieces of malaysian flight 370, missing since the early morning hours of march 8th when it disappeared from radar screens with 239 people on board. military radar later suggested it made a u-turn back over malaysia, turning right up the strait of malacca and out into the indian ocean. now, evidence the plane may have flown as far south as possible. the australian maritime safety authorities john young. >> this is a lead. it is probably the best lead we have right now. but we need to get there, find them, see them, assess them, to know whether it's really meaningful or not. >> reporter: military search planes have now been sent to an yar about 1,550 miles southwest of perth. the australian prime minister contacted his malaysian counterparts with the news. >> yes, i have been doing from day one, we have been following every single lead. and this time, i just hope that it is a positive development. every lead is a hope. and we have been very consistent. we want to verify it. >> reporter: if the wreckage is found, searchers hope to find the black boxes. one of the two men who found the air france black boxes after two years in the atlantic says it won't be easy. >> on paper, it may seem fairly straightforward. but when you get out there on board a ship, the world becomes a very large, that ocean does. and a plane becomes very small. and so, when you're actually in the thick of it, you can see how easy it can be to miss something. >> reporter: time is slipping away. [ pings ] they've got only 17 days until the batteries on the underwater locating pingers run out. if the plane is in this area, it could be anywhere from 10,000 to 16,000 feet of water. 10,000 to 16,000 feet of water. it's very deep there. an australian naval ship is en route to the area. it's not expected until sunday. and an ac-130 hurricaercules ai is headed there. we're talking rough seas in this yar. -- area. very poor visibility. that means if this wreckage is, in fact, from the plane, it might have already floated potentially hundreds of miles. guys, back to you. >> tom, i was going to say, that's the other big caveat. while this is a credible lead, unconfirmed lead, the fact the images are four days old. >> reporter: yeah, i think that's absolutely right. first of all, the plane's been missing for 12 days. so if this is, in fact, the wreckage, it's been in this water and been beaten up for 12 days. and now, we don't know a precise fix on the wreckage, if it's wreckage, because these images, as you said, are four days old. so they're going to have to do a lot of calculating here based on winds, based on what the sea's been doing, the currents, and try to figure out where these pieces might be. and we should also make this last point. it is entirely possible that this wreckage, or this debris, is not aircraft wreckage. it could be something that fell off of a passing ship. you know, we have a lot of merchant traffic in that area, and it was pointed out to me you might get a container falling overboard, for example. >> tom, this is bobby. we actually -- we flagged that possibility earlier in the show. i mentioned that. i should point out that most containers are between 20 and 40 feet. so something 75 feet is a little unusual, even for the kind of wreckage that floats around in the oceans. we've talked about planes being sent in. are satellites -- are more satellites being brought over that area, do you know, to see if they can see anything from that height? we know this happened when the chinese first found some floats in the south china sea, able to direct some of their other satellites over that area to get a closer picture. >> reporter: we believe that the u.s. and the australians are using their satellite infrastructure in that area to try to get a better look at exactly what is in that region. you know, the resolution is not great. but i do think it's important to point out the australian prime minister went before parliament. you've got to believe that he or somebody perhaps at langley, somebody in the australian intelligence community, or at langley in the states, feels that this is a pretty good hit, a pretty good fix, otherwise they wouldn't go out in front of parliament and the world and announcing it. >> tom costello reporting for us in washington, d.c. thank you, sir. we'll let you get back to work. if you find new information, bring it to us. it's one of the many theories surrounding the missing plane, was malaysia airlines flight 370 hijacked by terrorists? we'll explore that possible scenario next on "morning joe." it's a growing trend in business: do more with less with less energy. hp is helping ups do just that. soon, the world's most intelligent servers, designed by hp, will give ups over twice the performance, using forty percent less energy. multiply that across over a thousand locations, and they'll provide the same benefit to the environment as over 60,000 trees. that's a trend we can all get behind. how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. 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don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva. more now on our breaking news about the missing malaysian airlines flight 370, and the potential of a debris field that may have been found in the southern indian ocean. joining us now former terrorism analyst, don berelli. we have two pieces of interest here. one 70 feet, the other 15 to 16 feet big, and we can't wrap our heads around the fact that this plane flew for almost eight hours after going off its course, and may potentially have ended up in a water event in the southern indian ocean. explain to all of us the theories that you have going on in your head with your background of what could have happened on this flight. >> well, i'd like to go back to a point that bobby made earlier, and that was discussing the background investigation of all of the people on the plane, particularly the pilots, and that thus far everybody has kind of checked out clean. and i can tell you from experience that the fbi, when we get the leads about somebody possibly being involved in a terrorism organization or plotting, you know, a terrorism event, it can take weeks and sometimes months to flush that information out. we're barely two weeks into this event. and to say that everybody's been checked out clean, i think, is very premature. you need to realize there may not be enough investigation done. if i'm in charge of this, i want to go back over everything that was done and look at the thoroughness. i want to see, has everybody been interviewed that needs to be interviewed? has every phone record, e-mail been checked and chained out to see if there's any connectivity to any, you know, organization that could remotely be involved in terrorism? in the united states, you know, like i said, it can take weeks and months, and we have the benefit of all these records being automated. in many of the countries, they're still working with files and paper. so it could take even longer for that information to flush out. so to say that this was not a terrorism event, you know, it's way -- it's way too early. i wouldn't say it is or it's not. i think there's still a lot of work to be done. >> steve rattner? >> john, to that point, in my view, anyway, for what it's worth as a pilot, there was clearly human intervention in that cockpit, an untoward way. decisions made to turn off the transponder, stop the acar system to stop transmitting data, to make the turn to the left, and these things happened and happened in a sequence other than it's a hostile act toward the plane and the passengers. if you agree with that or don't, i'd love to hear about that. if you do, you come back to the pilots and passengers and you believe at some point you'll find something out about somebody. >> i do agree with that. absent any other information, and i'm just going off of what's been reported from the people analyzing the technical data that it was a deliberate act, and deliberate and criminal act, then, yes, you need to really start doing that deep dive into the background of the people involved, starting with the pilots and then anybody else on that airplane. again, we've heard back from other countries saying, for example, china, everybody's checked out clean. i think we haven't heard anything from the russians. it can take a long time to uncover that nugget of information that might lead you down a path of criminal activity. so i think it's too early to rule that out. >> don, i think -- this is bobby, that point is well taken, these things take a very long time. is there a scenario in which -- there's a presumption this is an act of terrorism, that people who commit these kinds of acts want the world to know. they want the world to understand their motivation. if they're taking revenge for something, they want the world to know. is there a scenario would that be would do this, an act of terrorism, but no announcement? >> that very well could be the case. it's been brought up that it was a potential act of terrorism that went bad, so the plane was ditched in the ocean. so you may not want to publicly announce that -- >> that you screwed up. >> -- you screwed up. or it could be the fact that we're all talking about this nonstop for the last 12 days, and maybe there will be some kind of announcement down the road that this was an act of terrorism. so, you know, hopefully we'll recover the information from the flight recorder, that'll shed a lot of light on the situation. in the meantime, the investigation into the people aspect of this must keep going at full strength. >> all right. and you talk about the flight recorder, don. i want to bring in arnold gordon, a professor and oceanographer. he joins us on the phone. as we talk about that, obviously to get to the flight recorder, we need to figure out where and if a water event happened, if a debris field exists. as we know about where these two pieces of interest have popped up on satellite imagery are in the southern indian ocean, what does it say to you about tracking a potential debris field for a water event in relation to 370? >> yes, it's a difficult area for a number of reasons. ocean currents. but also some very high waves, too. probably about 20-foot waves coming in from the southwest. right now, there's a storm in the area, too. so it's cloudy, rainy. the ocean currents in that area are -- it's in -- it's just north of a region which has strong currents towards the east. >> mm-hmm. >> so the currents, as far as i can tell from the imagery that was released by the australians, in that particular area are -- oh, you know, maybe about -- maybe about a few miles an hour, ten miles an hour, something like -- i mean, about one mile an hour, something like that. you know, 24 miles in a day. and the flow would most likely be towards the east. >> again, these images being four days old that we're now getting a search area, at least one -- a radius for those investigating with different aircraft, also with ships in the area. and it really is, from your professional standpoint, it really does -- the evaluation of the currents is really going to be important to the search event related to at least these satellite images? >> that's right. now, it's not just the currents. i worked in that area in the past. it's not just the currents. it's the waves. the waves will be coming in from the southwest. they're going to push that debris towards the northeast then. and it might be -- that might be a bigger offset from where those photographs were taken than just the currents. i think both together, though, would move them towards the east. >> also, you said with having worked in that area, you know the depths -- >> yes. >> -- or undisclosed depths of what it means to work in that area. from what you're seeing, what's your analysis so far, knowing what it's like, the depths of the southern indian ocean there? >> that's right. so the area that the images showing is right over the -- what's called the mid-ocean ridge of that area, in that region. and depth -- ocean depth there would be something like about 3,000 meters, so, you know, 10,000 feet, something like that. which is very deep. >> right. >> but it's very rough topography down there. it's full of little valleys and hills and things like that. so it's going to be a real challenge to find that -- the aircraft. >> they certainly have their work cut out for them. >> they do. >> arnold gordon, sir, from columbia university, thank you for joining us on "morning joe." >> sure. >> obviously, it's the agony of the families waiting for any word that has captured the attention of those around the world who are also waiting for news of what happened to the passengers and the crew on board flight 370. families, as we see here, they're preparing for the worst as their frustration mounts at getting no shred of news, one distraught mother here, this played out before the media yesterday. keep it locked in on "morning joe." we're back after this. 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[ click ] even protective suits. staples. make more happen. all right. we've been following the breaking news all morning long on the vanished flight 370. so final thoughts this morning, and then our coverage will continue after a break. steve rattner, you go first. >> i still come back to my same thinking that something happened in the cockpit when it made the turn. there was untoward act, pilot, co-pilot, passengers, we doesn't know. and something else happened later. why would the plane turn south, and fly eight hours, off the coast of australia, to certain death. if you are going to kill people, you kill them quickly, and then run out of fuel and go into the ocean. >> such a great point. these are unconfirmed images of debris. bobby, your thoughts? >> i can't disagree with steve. that's a lucid explanation. my thoughts honestly are with the families of the victims. what the latest revelation must do. on the one hand, you want closure. you want to know where the plane went down. on the other hand, if this is true, that means they're no longer alive and you can no longer cling to hope. >> the agony for the families is just -- >> brutal. >> -- impossible. brutal. hard to imagine. impossible to imagine. more coverage on the latest breaking news on missing flight 370 straight ahead. ameriprise asked people a simple question: can you keep your lifestyle in retirement? i don't want to think about the alternative. i don't even know how to answer that. i mean, no one knows how long their money is going to last. i try not to worry, but you worry. what happens when your paychecks stop? because everyone has retirement questions. ameriprise created the exclusive confident retirement approach. to get the real answers you need. start building your confident retirement today. don't worry! the united states postal service will get it there on time with priority mail flat rate shipping. ♪ whoo-hoo! ♪ [ male announcer ] our priority has always been saving the day. because our priority... amazing! [ male announcer ] ...is you! the amazing spider-man 2 delivered by the united states postal service. >>. >> breaking news this thursday morning, in the search for the missing malaysian airlines flight 370. march 20th, 2014. this is "the daily rundown." investigators now have what they call their best, most credible lead since that plane vanished 13 days ago. an australian satellite took these images about 1,500 miles off the coast of perth. that's off the southwest corner of australia. one of the objects is approximately 79 feet across. the other is 60 feet wide. just hours ago, malays

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