0 >> in fact, when you said we were wrong, i thought that's what you were talking about. new york city mayor michael bloomberg is vowing to appeal after a federal judge ruled the city's stop and frisk practice to be unconstitutional. the judge called it a policy of indirect racial profiling that demonstrated a widespread disregard for the fourth amendment. backers say stop and frisk has been instrumental in slashing new york's crime rate, even saving the lives of thousands of young african-american and hispanic men. the very people the practice is accused of targeting. >> want to match the stops to where the reports of crime are. i don't think there's any question that one of the problems we have in our society today is that victims and perpetrators of crime are disproportionately young, minority men. that's just a fact. we go to where the reports of crime are. drinkers you focus your advertising in that direction. we call it a good use of resources. that's called efficiency and smart and that's what this is. if somebody said to me, guys wearing glasses were most likely to be terrorists and you stop me in an airport, profiled me and going to make me feel safer i'm okay with it. i think most new yorkers are okay with it. it's a grownup decision, big boy decision, and that's the reality. i think the irony of this whole thing is that they're saving the lives of african-americans and hispanics because that is also the hugest part of the victims in this crimes. so look, call me now a conservative, i just -- as a dad, i like that. i have no problem. >> gene, i'm always struck when i talk to liberals and i first started new york liberals, i first noted this in the 1990s, i was talking to one of the top democratic leaders flying in and she spent the hour from washington to laguardia trashing rudy giuliani, just trashing him nonstop. i said so you, obviously, aren't going to vote for him. she said, oh, i'm going to vote for him. i can actually take my family to the theater without getting mugged. there's just always -- there's just for new york liberals, this is always a difficult choice, but i think those that can remember the '80s, can remember the early '90s, don't want to go back there and sometimes they're willing to accept things like stop and frisk, that they wouldn't accept in say kansas. >> yeah. you know, joe, i haven't read the whole decision but it teams to me there's a fairly simple solution, which is stop and frisk some white people also. but donny is right and you are right, that the stop and frisk policy is not terribly unpopular in a lot of the communities where it's practiced, at least not unpopular with senior citizens and others who feel safer, who feel they're able to, you know, go to the store and come home without fear of being mugged and i'm sure it has contributed along with other factors in the decline in crime in new york. but the constitution doesn't allow targeted marketing. it says that -- that laws have to be enforced fairly and the judge saw discrimination in the way this was being enforced. i'm sure this will be litigated on appeal. but it seems to me there's a fairly obvious way around, at least that part of the decision. the fourth amendment question is a different question, but i don't know that that is -- that that would stop the whole policy. >> you could -- >> gene brings up an interesting point. new yorkers like me who are for it, if all of a sudden i got patted down for no reason, blah-blah-blah, i might turn around a little bit. >> what if gene's son is visiting up here on business. >> yeah. >> once again, i mean -- >> it's -- what if you were -- we talked about this with -- about gene and michael steele were on and it was just so jarring to us, that the talk that every african-american father has to give to his son. >> yes. >> which is, it's a matter of life and death, keep your hands up, on the dashboard, turn the lights on, so yes, i mean in the macro sense it makes a lot of sense. willie, you boil it down to, you know, the individual impact and you can certainly see why communities would be upset by it. >> it may make sense, it may be popular with white people living on the island of manhattan but if you're being stopped and frisked it's a different story. 50% of the city, black and hispanic. they make up 83% of the stops. another important number, only one out of ten of those stops result in even a summons, forget an arrest. so those nine people who were stopped now have a feeling about their police and their mayor and their city they shouldn't feel. they shouldn't be ha raced because they're -- harassed because they put their hands in their pockets or look over their shoulder. that's a low bar. an officer get to determines what avertive movement is. if i'm one of the nine out of ten not doing something wrong i don't feel like i'm stopped and harassed. >> also, donny, if you were stopped and frisked three times in one year, you would not only be annoyed but it would make you very resentful and almost feel like quite frankly at certain times during a stop and frisk situation that perhaps you would panic and think that you're being harassed or maybe they would be planting something in your car. it hasn't happened to you. >> no. i caveated saying i might feel differently if i were stopped. >> exactly. >> what percentage of the crimes are actually committed by people who are profiled. >> and whether or not the data show this is reduced crime and violence and there is controversy over that. having said that, even if it does, it's not being used correctly and as gene pointed out it has to be used more broadly to be fair, in order to not make minorities feel like they're being targsed. my husband broke this story a couple years ago and there have been reporters fanned out across areas in new york, you go to certain areas of new york, you can't find someone who hasn't been stopped and frisked. you can't find young black kid who hasn't been stopped and frisked multiple times if he's 17, 18, 19 years old. there's a problem there. and at this point, it can't go on in light of the trayvon martin conversation we've been having nationally. >> while this is front page news all over the country, it's not a news story. it's demography versus the constitution. in city after city after city. it's poor people who are being victimized by people who live in their own neighborhoods. we have to frame of reference for being stopped and frisked. people like us. we're white, we're middle class. no frame of reference. we don't get followed in department stores when we go in as potential shop lifters or thieves. but the interesting aspect of this story to play off your initial feelings about it, if you go to certain parts of this city or any large city, and talk to people who live under the constant threat of crime, many of them poor, many of them minorities, they're very conservative about things like this. they sort of want to applaud the police for stopping and frisking. >> michael, and gene, michael nutter, has famously said he wishes he had stop and frisk in -- if he had stop and frisk in philadelphia and new york city's gun laws he thinks philadelphia's streets would be a lot safer than they are. again, it's just -- there is this -- you know, i think we all are offended by the fact that if you're an african-american, young male, in a certain neighborhood, the police are going to stop you for, you know, what will seem to you like absolutely no reason. >> well, you're not going to -- you're not going to find more law and order people than in neighborhoods that have a problem with law and order. it's absolutely true. it's just that, you know, if you're going to do a policy like this, you really have to apply it fairly, i think, and you could stop and frisk on the upper east side and have nine out of ten of the stops result in no summons, no arrest, no nothing. you could do that anywhere in new york. >> gene, really brings up an interesting point. if i'm ray kelly, i kind of give a quota and say guys, i want you stopping x percent of whites. that ends the problem right there. >> quotas on the other direction -- >> but you know what that then, when that happens -- >> outrage. >> suddenly there will be outrage. i got to tell you, if i'm walking down the street and a cop stops and frisks me, does it once, say thank you, sir. he does it twice, by the time he's down to my waistline, i'm like give me your badge number. this is going to be bad. i would say that whether i was a lawyer in pensacola, florida. the third time, i would say buddy, seriously you are going to be in trouble. go ahead. i'm just saying, none of us would put up with it. >> so, add to that, donny or joe, you're driving a car. okay. you're driving a car with your brother or a friend and the police stop you and there's four of them and there's two of you and they tell you get out of the car, against the car, they frisk you, they question you, and then two of them are in the car looking around. >> by the way -- >> what are you going to think during that time. maybe it's nighttime. are you going to panic and think are they planting -- what are you going to think? how are you going to feel? isn't that going to bring resentment and fear? >> and again, this is a follow-up on our conversation about a month ago. because mika is saying -- that happens. forest whitaker is going to be on our show talking about "the butler." p i think i read a quote, he said -- >> and lee daniels. >> and lee daniels too. forest whitaker, i read him talking about, you know, the number of times he's been thrown up against a car and frisked because he's african-american and it's nighttime and he's driving a car through a neighborhood where the cops are concerned. i mean this is, obviously, a much bigger problem. >> it is a bigger problem and again, it's a matter of enforcing the law fairly. there aren't a whole lot of african-american men who haven't at some point at least been pulled over for driving while black. sometimes for walking while black. it happens. and you know, yeah, people get sick of it and people get angry at it and -- but there's this added reality that you know you don't -- you keep your hands inside, don't make quick movements, you act in a certain way, because that's the serious part. that -- that's going to be taken, you know, how that's going to be interpreted by police and it could end very badly. >> all right. one more story to get to here. we will get to anthony weiner and hillary clinton. >> good. >> i know you want to do that -- >> something first, that's pay gap. >> more and more women -- >> between men and women. i'd much rather hear this than developments in anthony weiner and hillary clinton's campaign because, you know, more and more women are entering the top echelons of america's corporations. >> but a new study shows their pay still lags behind. >> outrageous. >> a bloomberg analysis of s&p 500 companiesp shows when you look at the top five best paid executives at each company, just 198 of more than 2,000 were women. that's only about 8%. they earned $5.3 million on average, not bad, but that's still 18% less than their male counterparts. the top female earners in the country, oracle's chief financial officer and yahoo!'s marissa mayer who made $36.6 million last year. there are women breaking through, but on average, there's still a long way to go. >> a long way to go, but right now, in college -- >> that's correct. >> disproportionate amount of people graduating are women. it is a -- we are in the beginning of the wave. we're sitting here 15 years from now, that's going to be different. the numbers still are not good, but the tide has turned and hypocrisies of corporations will sort that out. >> there may even, i predict, somewhat, some day, an overcorrection where men find themselves having trouble keeping up. i do. it will take a long time but looking at the rate things are going, in school, right now. >> i agree. >> with women graduating. on tomorrow's show, our conversation with oprah winfrey. we sit down with her and director lee daniels for their film "the butler." still ahead, former new york governor george pataki joins the table and editor and chief of buzzfeed, ed katz. >> he had good questions yesterday. >> he did. >> buckle up for the hyper loop. >> this is very cool. >> a billionaire innovator unveils his idea for a high-speed travel system that would send passengers hurdling through tubes at 700 miles per hour. >> i did that one night in college. >> amazing. >> i did that -- >> one of those. >> why some experts say this could actually be for real. up next, the top stories in the politico playbook. first, officials warn a sink hole in florida could continue to grow. a day after the ground swallowed up a part of a resort near disney world. more than 100 people were forced to evacuate as the building collapsed. no one was hurt and while the science is getting better, geologists cannot predict when and where a sinkhole will open up. did you see kerry sanders on "nbc nightly news" last night. >> did he start to sink? >> i'm going to show you his stand-up. he'll join us this morning. >> fantastic. >> i hope he pours the water on the cement for me as he did for lester holt last night. let's go to bill karins now -- >> the water i can't wait to see. >> for more on this. bill? >> joe and i lived in florida and it's a way of life down there. you never know where they're going to open up. the thing different with florida and any other place in this country sandy soil on top of limestone and all of florida's water is underground in an aquifer system and during droughts or big floods it's easy for the limestone to bubble up and then you get these sink hoels. they pop up out of nowhere. under a house, in the middle of a field, under a building like yesterday. it's just a way of life there and it's very difficult for them to scan the ground to be able to find out where they are. this is kind of an animation showing how it happens and especially in a drought situation, and then bubbles up and you literally are walking on top of it and the weight just collapses the ground. i remember doing a story there where a lady was walking her dog and the dog and her both got swallowed and ended up a hole and had to be rescued. as far as the weather goes, a little bit of breaking news out of the maryland area. kind of strange for this time of morning, but a tornado warning along i-95 through northern maryland. everybody from the aberdeen toward rising sun heading into northern delaware, stay in your homes for at least the next half hour. let the storm pass. possibility of a tornado this morning in northern maryland. right now it's doppler indicated tornado. we also have a horrible morning commute out there. this is going to be by far the worst airport tla day. torrential rains into new york city. major airport delays from philly to new york as we go throughout your morning commute. i'll keep you updated with the airport delays in the northeast as we go throughout "morning joe." washington, d.c., showers and thunderstorms also in your forecast this morning. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. hi, i'm karissa. hi, i'm sherri. and i'm going to show sherri how collecting box tops for education earns cash for our school by shopping at walmart. come on. sherri, look at all these products that you can buy for your family with box tops. and look, four box tops in one box. that's awesome! more cash for our school. only at walmart you get 4 box tops on over 100 items. karissa i got it and you only had to tell me four times. find 4 box tops on your family favorites like general mills cereals and nature valley granola bars backed by our low price guarantee. how can i help you? oh, you're real? you know i'm real! at discover, we're always here to talk. good, 'cause i don't have time for machines. some companies 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