we can't tell our people to vote on abolishing slavery at the same time telling them you will negotiate for peace. >> you cannot have both. >> how many hundreds of thousands have died during your administration. >> hundreds cannot declare equal. those who got are created unequal. >> leave the constitution alone. >> you're stepping on the world stage now with the fate of human dignity in our hands. blood has been spilt and led to this moment. now now now! >> abraham lincoln has asked us to work with him to accomplish the death of slavery. >> no one's ever been loved so much. don't waste that power. >> this fight is for the united states of america. >> we didn't choose to be born and do we fit into the times we're born into. >> i don't know about myself. you maybe. welcome back to the morning edition of morni"morning joe." >> enjoy your holidays? >> great. >> fantastic. >> thank you for spending part of your morning with us. this hour, we're talking "lincoln." >> wish they would leave. they came over. i never even met them. >> do you know their names yet? >> i never even met them. hey, neighbor. >> hey, how are you? good to see you. it's like, i don't know your name. i hate it when it happens. >> i will buy them all tickets to my favorite movie of the year, "lincoln," hand it to them online. go in my door and lock it. this is a heck of a coincidence. the steven spielberg film based on doris good wwin's book on ho t this president ended slavery. the film turned out to be the talk of the political world with special screenings for capitol hill, newspaper editorials come pairing the 1860s to today and pundits expressing renewed respect for the art of the political deal. >> academy award winning director and producer steven spielberg joined us in october along with managing editor, rick st stingel, who devoted and entire article to "what would lincoln do" and the daunting task of becoming the 16th president. >> daniel day-lewis is an extraordinary actor as i'm sure you will agree. and the portrayal of a man i'm sure everyone would put at the top of all presidents. >> he understand people opposed to him and people supporting him. had a deep deep kind of come mun yo ion with all the issues, he was widely criticized for, too slow to come to any decision, too slow to replace mcclellan to general grant and all these things he came under great criticism for and all of a sudden, he is headstrong and hurling down the road of history to get this amendment that abolishes slavery through the house of representatives. in a sense, you see all sides of him. >> you also see the turmoil. we forget or reads the history books and forget there's turmoil inside the house and unions. this is a president that had to sta stare down enemies on all sides. >> the other thing he does, all these characteristics lincoln represent, patience, strategic delay, are things in our society now we would castigate a candidate for. you're slow to make decision, you change your mind all the time. unfortunate unfortunately aspects from both candidates, aspects candidates cannot do now because they would be criticized for having lack of leadership. >> the movie is based in part on doris kearns goodwin book about how lincoln was able to connect with everyday americans. the white house then was so much more open than it is today. people wanting government jobs would line up by the hundreds outside lincoln's office each with a story to tell, a reason his family needed a clerkship or job in a post office in order to survive. lincoln's secretary, john nicolnic nicolay and john hay told him he didn't have time for these ordinary people. you are wrong, he responded these are my public opinion baths. their serve to renew in me a clearer and more vivid image of that great popular assemblage of which i have sprung. >> you say that everyday, willie. >> and i wonder the great political courage it was for him to do then. how difficult was that fight for him in 1863, 1864? >> what was difficult about the fight he did not run on the abolitionist ticket. he would not have won then. he had an urge from his very young years that slavery was an atrocity. at the very beginning when the war started, he could not let those border states secede and go south. he pretty much put on political theater meaning he said what had to be said to calm the border states down. before the secession of the southern rebels, he tried very very hard to prevent them from leaving by pretty much telling them anything they wanted to hear. in his heart, in the deepest reaches of abraham lincoln, he knew slavery had to be abolished at the beginning of his term. >> was it a difficult decision zeroing in on one part of his life? >> a really hard decision because doris' book is brilliant. i read many books on lincoln and she was sending me chapters as far back as 2003, i had chapters sent to me. what was difficult was there's so many highlights for lincoln's presidency. for the movie audience -- a tv series would be one template. for the movie audience, i felt you had to see him wrestling with one crisis, and not just the civil war where so many were killed. but the crisis of abolishing slavery, which could extend the war longer if he did. and until the end of april to the end of his life. >> lincoln seems like thomas jefferson, madisomadison, sons elite. lincoln seems like the rest of us. he seems a guy that struggles, a guy that loses more elections than he wins and a guy that gets down on the ground with his son and unlike george washington, this regular man that struggles with things so many of us struggle with, one of the great presidents. >> one of the great presidents. not the greatest looking are president in our history. because the camera wasn't around, it made it a little bit easier to get him elected. >> here's what "time" magazine editor at large, a lincoln expert himself writes in the latest issue as well, lincoln understood even in times of extreme polarization, the moderate center is the path to presidential success, was then and is now even as he felt his way on the tightrope, lincoln kept his eyes on the public on the shore beyond. americans have always been a future oriented people and our most admire presidents have been the ones who painted tomorrow in bright colors no matter how grim today. franklin d. roosevelt, john f. kennedy, ronald reagan all heirs to abraham lincoln. >> and saying 1652 is the most pivotal time in american history and told a crowd this french tightrope walker who walked across niagara. say you had on your back, the entire history of america, future of the america, go faster, go slower, he was saying, abraham lincoln, i have all this on my back in the most treacherous circumstance and everybody is telling me what to do. >> one of the most remarkable things, even after the bar that caused him so much, as it was winding down, he was the man that was telling the north, with malice toward none, chairty for all, he understand even after this terrible war, he was going to have to bring the country back together. >> exactly. he sadly for us, didn't survive his term and couldn't begin let alone complete the reconstruction. >> we just saw, rick, obviously three presidential debates and one vice-presidential debate. it seems, you know, the president had a terrible time the first debate, and the third debate, it seemed like mitt romney was sitting there and trying to remember what had been put in his head. they both seemed uncomfortable at times. you go back to lincoln's day and, you know, stephen douglas and abraham lincoln debates, the guys would stand up and how long -- >> i think three hours. >> on and on. it is amazing what -- >> lincoln, you see a little bit of this in the movie because it was an era you could make gaffes also. the longer lincoln was in office the shorter his speeches became because he didn't want to give people an opportunity to pick at things he said. the get tis berg address lasted a minute and a half and and the speech before lasted 2 1/2 hours. the other thing the movie does in the context of this election, you realize lincoln is a practical politician. yes, he's idealistic, also a realist re realist in getting things done. in the passage of the 13th amendment, lincoln was writing down votes, how do we get the congressman from ohio and the congressman from indiana, interesting to see. >> a little lbj. doris, one of my favorite lines doris says about lincoln says this promoting the book, yes, lincoln was a great man but lincoln was also a good man. >> we have a lot of great leaders who just hadnaren't goon and lincoln was the exception there. >> he had a core of decency and ec qui ecquinimity. you have to understand he was cut off, had many opponents outside his own party. to get anything done took literally an act of congress. he had to twist some arms to get that done. if he had had a 24-7 news cycle like we have today. he would have never -- riots in the north and was so patient and with that patience finally reward. >> when did you finally decide to do this? how many chapters from doris before you said i have to put this up on the screen? >> i produced a segment of the millennial celebration for the clinton white house. during that time i convened a think tank including steven ambrose and burns and invited doris and she told me she was writing a book about lincoln's presidency. at that moment, i said, are the film rights available? that day, i said are they available? i always wanted to do something on lincoln but not until i knew doris was the one to put it down on paper i threw my hat into the ring at that point. >> "saving private ryan" defined world war ii for people who didn't live through it. this moment will define lincoln and the 13th amendment. what's your next project? >> i hope lincoln never stops knocking doaround in my head, a don't want to take the film coat off. i am getting back into science fiction. not a reaction to history. this has been a deep passion for me. now that it's almost ready to come out, my next film this is complete opposite of this in terms of tone and genre. >> what do you watch when you're at home? have a favorite series? watch "homeland?" >> i watch "homeland" my wife and i are watching it every sunday night. and the same way we watched "24." i'm a news junky. >> "homeland". >> "modern family." i like "revolution some. >> band of brothers. talking about "private ryan" led to "band of brothers" and written several years ago, i thought was fascinating, when we were growing up, you go to school and sit around the office and talk about the great movies. now, it's more, did you see what happened last night, could you believe what happened with brodie last night. it did all start with "band of brothers" in 2001? >> "band of brothers," that was the first time we took the steven ambrose book and did research on that and laid out 10 hours to honor the veterans, especially -- you know -- to me, that was interesting. television goes way back. i remember my dad used to repair television sets when i was a little kid, for money. i guess we were one of the first people on our block to have a television set in the early '50s. i know the same thing happened then that happens now. if there was a funny sid caesar skit, that was the conversation at the cooler. that was the conversation. television has always had that draw. television hurt movies 60 years ago, the first time movies had a rival. now, there's a very interesting balance between television watching and movie going. >> the thank steven spielberg for joining us. when we come back, our discussion continues on the woman who wrote the book on which the movie was based. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. i'm jennifer hudson. i hate getting up in the morning. i love bread. i love cheese. did i say i love chocolate? i'm human! and the new weight watchers 360 program lets me be. the reason i'm still in this 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reaction, a severe rash, or signs of unusual behavior, stop taking tamiflu and call your doctor immediately. children and adolescents in particular may be at an increased risk of seizures, confusion or abnormal behavior. the most common side effects are mild to moderate nausea and vomiting. the flu comes on fast, so ask your doctor about tamiflu. prescription for flu. we'll win the war, sir. it's inevitable, isn't it? >> it ain't won yet. >> you'll be getting your second term with a semidivine stature. imagine the possibilities peaceful and great. why tarnish your luster in the house. the same gang of talentless hicks and hacks who rejected the amendment ten months ago will lose. >> i like our chances now. >> welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from boston is the woman behind the movie "lincoln," presidential historian, doris kaerearns good. doris, good to have you with us this morning. >> glad to be with you. >> we're talking about obviously lessons from the past year. tell us what steven spielberg's movie, inspired by your book, inspired by abraham lincoln, teaches us in the aftermath of this election and in the middle of some pretty damned difficult debates over our financial future and how to best protect our children. >> i think the most important thing, it teaches us about presidential leadership and about what politics can do to make life better for people. we have such a cynical view right now of our politicians. what "lincoln" shows and the movie reveals, in the hands of a person like abraham lincoln, he was a man, not an icon, it's possible to have deep profound convictions which he did. he was willing to go to war to save the union, willing to screw up potentially the political capital of a second term to get that amendment passed and he was willing to compromise to do whatever was necessary to reach the goals he told about. he told stories to communicate and talked to people coming in and out of the white house and never lost his connection to that popular assemblage from which he had come. it leads us to believe politics is a noble profession and the right people can make the right choices even though we've lost a lot of faith in it right now. >> doris, a few days ago, when the president spoke in newtown high school, in the wake of his speech, because we've become a nation of 300 million social commentators with twitter and everything, there was an astounding number of people who were critical of the president for never mentioning or using the word "gun" in those remarks that sunday evening at the high school. and yet the gettysburg address, president lincoln never used any word "slavery," yet the power of the presidency, are there similar lines do you think what lincoln did with his words an what president obama seems to be doing or on the verge of doing with his words? >> i think you're so right, mike. in a certain sense i was thinking about that. think about what abraham lincoln said at the gettysburg address, a similar kind of move, no loss express what we feel as we are dedicating this cemetery to soldiers who died and we the living have to make their lives worthwhile. i don't think he had to go into specifics, i have a lot of power. i will used that power. and like lincoln said, i'm clothed with this 13th amendment power and then you follow up with what you do about video games and gun control and the internet. i think the tone of it was absolutely pitch perfect. >> doris, john heilemann. one of the things most amazing about the movie, the way in which it kind of celebrates the kind of darker side of politics, right? it shows you this isn't just about nobility, there's a rlot f horse trading to get things done. if you were sitting in the oval office, i know you have done that with president obama, what would you tell him to conduct himself in the whole range of things over the nerkt term xt tt things done. >> he has to keep that close connection. lincoln had people coming to his office every morning. and they said, you don't need to spend time with these people. he said, you are wrong. you get a mastery of timing when you have the sentiment of the country behind you. that's one of the lessons. the other is not to be embarrassed making deals. during the health care thing every deal got exposed and looks like it was a terrible thing. it's the end result that matters as long as nothing illegal was done. >> doris, you just referenced, for my money, is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie for lincoln, daniel day-lewis exhibiting great anger and indicating he is clothes in immense powers as president. in watching the movie and thinking about the speech the president made at newtown high school, despite all the advance, incredible advances we have today, we have public people who are reluctant understandable, to express similar anger over outrageous things. it's interesting to me had the president of the united states today expressed such visible anger as daniel day-lewis did portraying lincoln, i wonder what the reaction would be? >> interesting, those words some of the most famous words in the movie are actually abraham lincoln's words. i am clothed with immense power and you will get this passed. i think it was well inside him. you had a feeling president obama was reaching almost to that point. i still think at that memorial service, it wasn't the night for anger, the night for con sulation. but anger should probably come forward for public officials in weeks ahead. there's room for it in public life because it also moneylizes people as sorrow and good words do. >> no doubt about it. there's nothing wrong with and nothing more powerful than righteous anger when used at appropriate times. i would say certainly in a movie used at an appropriate time as it was in lincoln's life. if this is not the appropriate time for politicians to be righteous in their anger at the state of things, i don't know when is. if not now when? >> doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. you will also be in our next segment. >> that's exciting. >> a videotape. and doris and jon meacham and the civil war in pennsylvania. next on "morning joe." >> announcer: did you know there are secret black market websites around the world that sell stolen identities? >> 30-year-old american man, excellent credit rating. >> announcer: lifelock monitors thousands of these sites 24 hours a day. and if we discover any of our members' data for sale, lifelock is there with the most comprehensive identity theft protection available. [♪...] [squealing, crash] call 1-800-lifelock or go to lifelock.com today. america is in the midst of commemoration of the anniversary of the civil war. and consider the battle of g gettysbu gettysburg. and with us to talk about it. mike barnicle, he was there and pulitzer winning historian jon meacham. by the way, he was cheering for lee. best selling author, doris kaerearns good win. let's begin with you, jon, why did gettysburg matter so much? >> it turned lee's army back and ended the invasion of the north and was the turning point of the war. at that point, though it was going to be difficult and bloody in the wilderness campaign and many many lives would be lost, in an historical perspective, that was the beginning of the end, as churchill might say, of the war. my sense, too, it resonates not only because of what happened there military in '63, but because of the words spoken there, what abraham lincoln did at that battlefield was to redefine the country, rededicate it, as he put it, to a jeff jeffersonian principle. when we look back on the civil war, it's fascinating to me that so much of our understanding of what it meant came from 1863, not from 1861. >> mike, you go to gettysburg and you see that line that marks the south's deep's advance to the north. i have to say as a southerner that grew up, it's hard to imagine lee's army's ever got that deep into the union. >> yeah. picket's charge up cemetery hill, i think you're talking about that. i agree with what jon said about gettysburg. another caveat important about gettysburg. in our frame of reference talking about war, most americans, many americans are not going to go to normandy, they're not going to see the bulge, they're not going to visit the battles of the pacific. you can go to gettysburg and stand there on a hot july day and heat and countryside, you can still sense the cost of war. it's critical and learn a little bit about the history of the cost of war important for all americans and american presidents to understand. picket's charge was basically a suicidal run up the side of cemetery ridge. >> you stand there, you go to so many battle fields, there's no way to recreate it, you stand at the top and look down at picket's charge and just gasp. >> you look down and you can envision twelv12 to 13,000 confederate soldiers rushing up that hill in the incredible velocity of the union artillery. you can understand by general long street disagreed with general lee about doing this, about the tactics involved. you can certainly understand during july 3rd and july 4th, took the day off to honor the day. general lee urges general picket to invigorate his division and go back at it. general pickett says to general lee, general, i have no more division, they were decimated. >> none of us military historians says this is pure speculation, i think most that have studied general lee and what he was able to do with the troops he had, leading up to gettysburg, would say he was perhaps the greatest general america has ever produced. do you think even this great general, this humble man, by all estimation, this remarkable character by all estimations just started to believe his press clippings? started to believe he had done so much on the way up to pennsylvania that even he could do the impossible? >> you almost have to believe that, when you've come that far with those men you can't stop. you know what stopping is going to mean. the extraordinary thing with this great general lee is to imagine what would have happened when abraham lincoln offered him the head of the union army if he had loved america more than his state. but the state meant more obviously. what's interesting, we all say now that gettysburg was the high water mark. indeed, looking back on it, it is. for those living at the time, for lincoln, the victory at gettysburg produced one of his worst moments of depression afterwards, because he was constantly telegraming general lee, you have to get this army, don't let them escape. it will be over in a matter of months and if they escape it will go on year after year. in his depression he wrote a letter to general meade. i'm immeasurably distressed, you didn't do what we asked you. had you done so, this war would come to an earlier end. knowing it would paralyze the general, he's still in the field and it hurt him, he put it aside and never seen when lincoln's pape papers are opened and it said never sent and never signed. it's a great thing, write the letter, put the letter aside, cool down psychologically and never send it. >> i have to write that down, don't send those. you don't hit return. >> harder for the e-mail. >> that is a problem with e-mail. >> joe, you raise, i think, among historians, among just people who are taken with what happened at gettysburg, one of the more intriguing questions of american history. it is about lee. why did he perceive -- why did he proceed with that tragedy? by the time pickett's charge had finished, don't hold me to the numbers, 25 of 40 of his commanders had been killed at gettysburg? 25 out of 40. his army leadership had been decimated. lee wrote, to my knowledge, no real memoir of that war. so we don't know, we don't know why he did it. >> but he knew, by the end of that day what he had done. >> let's talk about the speech. doris, what is it about that short peaspeech that actually w panned in the papers that week in realtime, it was panned. what is it about the gettysburg address that you memorized when you were in third or fourth grade. i memorized when i was in third or fourth grade. our great grandchildren will be memorizing? >> because it provided a meaning for this terrible war. it went back to the great declaration of independent tense. the constitution prevented us from doing anything about slavery in the south and finally he reaches back to the ideals of the declaration of independence and gives a meaning of the war and soldiers that died that will last forever, even though it was only two minutes. two minute speech after edwaver edward spoke for two hours. they didn't even know he was done so there wasn't this great moment of understanding, soon literary figures soon understand the glory of it. all the shakespeare, drama, bible he had memorized as a child he had loved scouring the countryside worked his way into his soul and that peach, it will last forever. >> if you reread the speech, we all ought to reread it regularly. he talks basically about the spine of the republic. he talks about this nation, this republic will go forward and survive and out-last this. you think about the context of history, there is the gettysburg address, there is perhaps we have nothing to fear but fear itself from franklin roosevelt. we have ask not what you can do for your country from john f. kennedy. how many other presidents have stood and spoken and had their words chis sold elled in our me memory, talking about 150 years. >> for a man that wanted to be remembered as lincoln did, thinking that can be the only way you can live on in existence, he certainly got that wish with that terrible childhood, laboring against education and in our minds forever. >> doris, thank you very much. coming up next, spielberg's film wasn't the only one mathis year, and vampire hunter. joining us next to shed light on lincoln's lesser known side, one spielberg overlooked and we'll look at the facts from doris. stick around. [ man ] ring ring... progresso this reduced sodium soup says it may help lower cholesterol, how does it work? you just have to eat it as part of your heart healthy diet. step 1. eat the soup. all those veggies and beans, that's what may help lower your cholesterol and -- well that's easy [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. 80 miles from here to gettysburg and 80 miles to decide whether this nation belongs to the living or the dead. >> we got to keep them away from the locomotive. >> that was a scene from the movie "abraham lincoln vampire hunter" where the 16th president of the united states takes on a new role. one of the film stars anthony mackie talks about why the movie "vampires" is the perfect date movie. >> i was just saying it's the perfect date movie, you take a beautiful young lady, give her popcorn and icy. she's sitting there when it comes on and she'll go argh! it's okay, baby, it's okay. i'll fight those big vampires for you. >> oh, my. all right. >> anthony, a lot of people saw the title of this movie and they were wracking their brains going through their junior year in high school history. i remember abraham lincoln but the part about the vampire hunting, i must have missed that. >> if you can get past the title and allow yourself to believe there's a guy from another planet who goes around in a phone boothe and tight suit that saves the planet. you can believe abraham lincoln was a superman. abraham lincoln was the greatest of all of them. >> how do you combine history with fantasy. >> it's called movies. >> i get that, anthony. >> the first book was "prejudice and zombies" at barnes & noble. that's not a plug for them. he sees a biography of abraham lincoln and said, why didn't anybody write this book before. he went home with a recontextizatirecontex recontextualization and for women to go argh and the man, it's okay. >> i will do a fact check. presidential historian, world renowned presidential historian author of "team of rivals," doris concerns goodwin on the phone. doris kearns goodwin, was abraham lincoln. >> i can shut it down. you've gone through the national archives and seen all the papers. was he a vampire? >> it's pretty embarrassing this man i went to bed with every morning and where was this part? i didn't know about it. >> this book was amazing reading more about his politics in the white house opposed to his personal life. if you go into his personal life, you will learn there were many intricate ideas what he did with his night life. >> see that. >> thought i didn't read the book. i told you i read the book. >> the interesting thing is the same starting point for the book in the movie is real with his mother's death when he was 9. what historians know is it had such an effect on him he needed to do something, saying i will dye now and never return and said there was nothing left. he eventually got consolation in the thought if i can do something that deals with time, i'll live on in the memory of others. >> he lost three children, not one, correct? >> correct. >> in the movie, we had him losing a son. abraham lincoln saw so much death, losing his mother and three kids and mary todd looked at as bipolar before bipolar was diagnosed. you see that in the film and how h his life was affected by outside factors and we decided to make the outside factors vampires. >> the movie stretches reality a little bit. you don't actually play abraham lincoln? >> yes, i do, modern technology and cgi, i play bro lincoln. >> you actually play his political consultant. like the james carville. >> i'm the robin to his batman. >> william johnson was actually abraham lincoln's chauffeur. >> he's a real guy. >> he was with abraham lincoln giving the gettysburg address and he died of smallpox and abraham lincoln with his own money had him buried he had wri "william h. johnson, citizen," and i think it was remarkable. he didn't call him caddie or employee, he didn't call him man, he called him citizen -- >> or vampire caddie. >> or vampire slapper in the facer. >> thank you. >> thank you, anthony. 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