Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20120409

and this time, his name is bubba. good morning. it's monday, april 9. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have msnbc and "time" magazine's mark halperin. also financier steve rattner. and editor of "the new yorker" david realmna. a lot to get to this morning. >> so i'm watching bubba watson, never taken lessons, one of the masters. and he's crying. he lost his dad last year. and all -- there's a -- just adopted a baby. all these great stories. and my phone starts ringing, you know, when he's breaking down and they're putting on the green jacket. and it's like, what's with these guys running around with green jackets and they're crying? i want to see "60 minutes." >> well, i didn't understand. >> you didn't understand what that was. >> no. >> can you explain the significance of the masters? we're not -- >> crying over a ball. >> we're not talking about the buick lesabre open in like youngstown. this is the masters. >> like no other. mika, you missed two of the greatest golf shots ever, ever, in one tournament. >> oh, my gosh. >> when you see them, even you will be impressed. >> no, i don't think so. >> i share mika's bewilderment. >> mika is going is going to go home and watch it on youtube. >> i don't get it. >> even the masters? you don't even get the masters? >> i got it when tiger woods was making his ascent, and that was fun. i couldn't care less. >> steve, where are you on this? >> look, i think the bigger issue is what you were talking about all last week, which is what do you with augusta and when they are going to get into the modern age -- oh, here i am, just another liberal. >> no, no, no. but i can tell you're another "new york times" guy. go be the editor of the "new york times" for a couple of months and see how that works out. >> is this what ari goes to? >> do we have the shot? >> things like this get men excited. >> here is a crazy shot that even you would understand, mika. this has never happened, if tj will cue it up, in the history of the masters being televised. this guy, we didn't see from the very beginning, but he shot it from, what, 220 yards. >> yeah. >> and you just -- it was just an unbelievable shot. >> it's in the hole. >> it's in the hole. >> yes! >> i like it when the announcers whisper as if they are going to disturb the golfers even though they are way away. >> i am fighting a losing battle here. i wish willie were here. but he's not. mika, though, obviously, some other big news yesterday. >> yes. >> sad news. the family expected it. everybody expected it. but that doesn't lessen the shock of it. just a pioneer, a great man, a great journalist, passed away yesterday. and a guy you worked with and knew well. >> mike wallace. known for his tough, abrasive at times questioning on "60 minutes" died at a care facility on saturday night surrounded by his family. throughout his 60-year career, wallace was at the forefront of history. whether he was pressing world leaders or scolding celebrities, the iconic newsman perfected the art of the interview. his style mixed extensive research with a fair share of skepticism, a daunting combination for anyone hoping to dodge questions or hide the truth. although mike wallace was an early champion of the ambush interview, he later said the best information was exposed one-on-one. wallace started his career in radio as an announcer. when television emerged in the 1950s, he starred in commercials and game shows. his first stint in news came on the local new york show "night beat." it was wallace's hard-charging interview style that got him tapped to launch cbs "60 minutes" in 1968. a program that would definitely define journalism for generations. he won 21 emmy awards, 5 dupont-colombia journal i678 award says, and 5 peabody awards. he is survived by his wife, son, and two stepchildren. mike wallace was 93. >> and you obviously worked with mike and donahuit. -- don hewitt. very early on, very kind, calling us, talking about the show. so many of those guys you have worked with, we have lost them in the past couple of years. >> yes, ed bradley, andy rooney. the best. the ones who started it all and knew how to create moments without overshadowing them. and knew how to find news. and present it in a way to people that they could fully understand the true essence of someone's personality and what the story was and really walk away thinking. wallace, his work speaks for itself. he was close friends with ronald and nancy reagan, and admitted that he often felt he had to be extra tough on them in interviews. take a look. >> how many blacks are there on your top campaign staff, governor? >> i couldn't honestly answer you now. >> that speaks for itself. >> huh? >> i say that speaks for itself. >> no. because i can't tell you how many people are on the staff. >> but you know black from white? >> oh, yes. >> what was your husband's role in the iran contra? >> nothing. i mean -- >> well, he was president of the united states. >> it was what -- i don't know enough about iran contra, mike, to talk to you intelligently about it. all i know is that he did not think he had done anything wrong. he didn't know of anything that was going on. >> you're going to be in japan, and i'm told it's a $2 million two weeks. >> they're getting two of us. they are working us like crazy. >> but it's going to be a well-recompensed for two weeks. >> it is for everybody who goes there, which you probably know. now you really didn't need that question. >> i love it. >> ice. >> i remember watching that, and at the time i had no idea how close they were. but that just speaks volumes to who mike wallace was, that he was toughest on his friends. even if it meant putting his friendships at risk. >> you know, i was doing research for a book on muhammad ali and i went back and watched his old interviews with malcolm x for a long series that he did long before there was "60 minutes." it had all of mike wallace. the toughness, the self regard, the too muchness of mike wallace, and a lot of that too. but what i like most about him is that most tv journalism is too soft. it's too soft. it doesn't go hard enough. and it lays back. and he was something very different. >> or on the other end, it's too hard without the context. and it's too ideological. here is -- you mentioned malcolm x. >> and just to explain that, there's too much cynicism. but somehow -- >> yeah. you've got to let the story breathe. >> these days, cynicism is mixed with a clubbiness that turns a lot of reporting into fluff. >> we can give a rounded portrait of mike wallace. i didn't like the stunts and the hidden cameras and kind of gotcha interviews on little guys who had a little scam going, and suddenly all of the power of "60 minutes" is brought there. there was a lot of theater going on. and for somebody in print, that's a weird and alien thing. and even for some people in television. and eventually, mike wallace and don hewitt came to see it was making a parody of "60 minutes" and they regretted it. >> and the full essence of mike wallace is often seen in small interviews and had nothing to do with surprises. here is mike wallace with malcolm x. >> do you feel perhaps that you should know take over the leadership of the black muslims? >> no. i have no desire to take over the leadership of the black muslims, and i have never had that desire. but i do have this desire. i have a desire to see the afro american in this country get the human rights that are his due to make a complete human being. >> are you the least bit afraid of what might happen to you as a result of making these revelations? >> oh, yes. i probably am a dead man already. >> marked. mark halperin talk about how mike wallace not only influenced you but a generation of journalists. >> to go back to something mika was saying, television requires big time television, which we did for so long, requires big personalities. and there's a fine line to walk. you don't want to be a part -- you don't want to dominate the story, but you must if you're going head-to-head with world figures you must be a big figure. and his ability to tell stories of our time as a big figure but very rarely venture -- cross the line where he became the story, incredible to perform at that level for so long. >> and steve rattner, you got your start in journalism. and worked at t"the times" for long time. explain how, and obviously we have heard from david that, often print and broadcast journalism are two different things, and sometimes the print journalists have looked down on tv broadcasters over the past 40, 50 years. but talk about how "60 minutes" was unique when it started and moved through the 1970s. print journalists might put their nose up in the air, but in '71, '72, '73, '74, during watergate, everybody was watching every sunday night. >> you couldn't ignore it. it certainly was setting the conversation and the deaf nation of how people thought about things such as watergate. i thought to myself, this is great, scottie ruskin will be made great by "60 minutes." i put up a sign on the bulletin board saying that he was going to be on "60 minutes" that sunday. turns out he was doing a profile of ben bradlee, and used one sentence from the interview with scottie, in which he said that ben bradlee's fastball was better than his curve. and that was it. >> pretty good sound bite, though. >> it was a grade sound bite. >> whatever it may have meant. >> what it meant was that the fastball is better than a curve. no, but scottie was appalled because he was trying to say nice things about ben, but sometimes it was pretty edgy. >> sometimes you would remember the question a lot more than the answer. like when he interviewed the ayatollah comainy, he hammered him and you barely remember the answer. but television is partly news, it's partly a kind of show, not a sitcom but a kind of -- >> do we have that question? i just want to push back on that a little bit. there are a few greats left. i can't think of any, actually, outside of one or two, that are who they are off the air on the air. and it's not a performance. >> and you're saying for mike wallace, it was not a performance. for don hewitt, for ed bradley, it was not a performance. andy rooney was just as cranky off the air. >> that man, every time i saw him, he would criticize my shoes and my attitude and criticize my voice. and that was his expression of love. >> with love. >> we saw quite a lot of mike wallace on martha's vineyard, and he was as driven and focused and every much the way you describe it. in fact, he invented a phrase on the vineyard called vineyard midnight, which meant that 9:30, 10:00, no matter what was going on, he was going to go to bed because he was always thinking about his journalism and what he would be doing next for "60 minutes." >> that show is still roaring. and you just don't see that kind of journalism all that often. >> the writing, the producing, the photography, it's amazing. so you talked about the ayatollah. during the iranian hostage crisis back in 1979, wonderful years, he asked the ayatollah being sarcastic to respond to suggestions he was crazy. >> president sadat of egypt, a devoutly religious man, a muslim, says that what you are doing now is, quote, a disgrace to islam, and he calls you, imam, forgive me, his words, not mine, a lunatic. >> sadat states he is a muslim. and we are not. he is not, for he compromises with the enemies of islam. so that has united with our enemies. >> and sadat would be dead soon after that interview. >> he had a great move, mike wallace. anytime he would say forgive me, please excuse me, here comes the left hook. >> yeah. >> talk about, though, mika, the culture over there, because you were working at cbs, and then "60 minutes 2" was started, and you started working -- you got to work with him. not only that, but also on the election coverage. i think in '04. talk about donnie hewitt and what he taught you. just talk about the culture over there. there was a culture over there. and we talked about the culture that survives over there right now, just a toughness. >> well, a couple of things. i met mike wallace in the hall by the atm in the basement at cbs, and he stopped me and remembered my work and started talking about it, and it was a very daunting moment because i had followed him all throughout my life and career, dreaming of being a journalist some day. and he was kprextremely charmin just as he was on camera. and as far as don hewitt is concerned, who was another one of the greats, i got to work with him and he was coaching me tracking a piece for "60 minutes." and these guys really know how to bring themselves into the story without becoming the story so that they can tell the story in its true essence. and they learn how to help you find your voice, instead of playing television. nobody on "60 minutes" plays television. everybody brings what they bring to the table, and they bring what they bring to the table to make the interview the best that it is. >> and i remember -- and mika says that, by the way, off the air, because i have always asked, because i grew up with mike wallace and donnie hewitt, i would say, what are they like off the air? and she's always said, just like they are on the air. and that's what made mike wallace work, that he was the same on martha's vineyard as he was in an interview. >> and most people on tv never get there. >> but the other point is it wasn't all about hidden cameras and gotcha questions and things like that. don hewitt used to describe "60 minutes" as tell me a story. in fact, his autobiography title was "tell me a story." he would say to his writers and producers, tell me the story. >> and he said that to me when we were tracking and i was sitting at the microphone trying to perform these lines, and he comes into the room. he comes into the private small room, just like throw this away. now tell me the story. what is it? tell it to me. tell it to me. right here to my face. and i told it to him, and it was great work that came out on the microphone. >> and yet -- that's the thing, so many people, mark, in this business play tv. mike wallace never played tv. that's what made him what he was. >> well, what he did do was something that is hard to do. you have to be sometimes to tell the biggest stories of our time, those incredible historic interviews, you have to be a big person with a big organization that can play at that level that, can book the guests and deliver the interviews and produce them. and, again, the level at which he played for the duration he did is incredible. >> yeah. >> and did it always with an eye towards not just entertaining, which he was, but the public interest, and that is very rare now. >> you know what else was very rare back in the early 1970s in my household -- >> what? >> in meridian, mississippi. >> i know what you're going to say. >> is my father watching a news program is not calling the person running the news program a communist. like he always said about cronkite after '68. but we listened to cronkite. and when he said that's the way it is, my dad believed him. it was the same thing with "60 minutes." during watergate, the darkest days of watergate when my dad was sure they were going after nixon because of hiss and vietnam and all of these other things, when "60 minutes" came on, dad just watched. and i remember one time i think in '74, he turned it off and he said, and he loved nixon to the end, he said, you know, if nixon has done half of what they say he's done, the man is unfit for office. and should be thrown in jail. you know, it's -- >> that was a particularly good interview by mike wallace with john ehrlichman. he really hammered him. >> he really did. >> if your father accepted that, he had gone a long way on the nixon trail. >> he listed all the things that were done wrong, and then ehrlichman stopped him and said, is there a question in here somewhere? >> i want to show this one. this is 1990, wallace confronted barbra streisand and made her cry. >> why? >> i don't know. >> i really didn't like you back 30 years ago. >> how come? >> and i don't think you liked me either. >> i thought you were mean. very mean. >> i didn't think that you paid much attention to me because you were totally self-absorbed back 30 years ago. >> wait, wait, wait. i resent this. you invite me as a guest on your show, and we would talk about all kinds of subjects that interested me, right? so you were using me as a guest on your show to talk. now how do you call me self-involved? >> you know what your mother told me about your relationship with you. >> what's that? >> she says you haven't got time to be close to anyone, quote. >> she said to anyone, or she said to her? >> to her, your mom. >> you like to see me like this. >> i love barbra streisand's -- now that's playing tv. i will give that to you, that is playing tv. and i love barbra streisand's response. you invite me on your show to talk and say i'm self-involved? [ laughter ] >> barbra streisand didn't mind the 40 million people watching that side of her, right? >> you'd have to ask her. >> wide world of news could do that kind of news and interview world leaders. >> and, again, we said it a couple of weeks ago, "60 minutes" is still doing it, which is incredible. anybody that stayed after the masters like you said, they still know how to do it. and just nobody, nobody has that consistency through the years. and it all started with mike wallace and don hewitt. harry reasoner. >> morley safer. >> leslie stahl. >> wow. >> yeah. all right. we've got a lot more to talk about, and some news to cover as well. coming up, tom brokaw will be here. also, mayor cory booker. the secretary for housing and development shawn donovan, and andrea mitchell. but up next, mike allen and the top stories coming up in politico. >> he's been important for a 15th of a century. >> yes. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. good morning. hope everyone had a great holiday weekend. weather definitely cooperated in most spots. this morning, northern new england is a little ugly. snowing in maine, cold and cloudy through many areas of northern new england, and that will be the story throughout this week. winds already gusting near 36 miles per hour near albany, and some of the winds will hadded to d.c., philly, new york, hartford, and boston during the day today. windy conditions. still not chilly idea. tomorrow will be much colder. northern new england, highs in the upper 40s to low 50s. middle of the country, the only other really big concern today is strong thunderstorms in tornado alley. we're mostly talking dallas to oklahoma city to the west. that area of red especially high for a chance of strong tornadoes late today. that's mostly areas west of oklahoma city out there on interstate 40. so that will be the big weather concern late today. otherwise, it looks like a quiet day. much of the travel around the country will be dictated by windy conditions in the windy city. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. with the cae cash rewards card you get a 50% annual bonus. and everyone likes 50% more cash -- well, except her. no! but, i'm about to change that. ♪ every little baby wants 50% more cash... ♪ phhht! fine, you try. 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"the new york times," afghanistan and the united states reached a deal yesterday that would hand control of special operations missions and night raids to the afghan government. american troops will now take on a supporting role in what's become one of the most contentious issues between the countries. from "the washington post," the u.s. navy says it has deployed a second aircraft carrier to the persian gulf amid rising tensions with iran over its nuclear program. the two battleships will patrol the gulf's strategic oil routes and support military operations in afghanistan. from the hill online, this week another obama administration health law faces a court challenge, this one over a new regulation that requires large graphic health warnings on cigarette packaging and advertisements. tomorrow the d.c. court of appeals will 00 arguments from tobacco companies who accuse the administration of overstepping its constitutional authority. from a parade of papers, "the dallas morning news," the new york jets backup quarterback tim tebow drew a crowd of about 15,000 people to an outdoor easter church service outside of austin, texas. tebow told the crowd it's important to be outspoken about faith. he also implored athletes to be better role models. and, david, i know you have to be excited, tim tebow -- when are you going to put him on the cover of "the new yorker"? >> giants fan. he'll never be on the cover. >> come on. >> i have to exercise power in some way. >> after what you did to candidate obama, you need to have -- >> you think tim tebow should have a halo around his head? i'll take that under advisement. >> let me ask you really quickly, iran. david, we haven't delved into that yet, but obviously the president issuing time warning to the iranians that he's going to give them one more opportunity to step forward. what should we do with iran? what's your world view right now? >> well, i have to say that rushing to war and taking the lead of netanyahu's rhetoric i think is a very, very bad idea. a really bad idea. the consequences that are obvious and the unintended consequences of an attack on iran i think would be devastating. and, look, i don't -- i take very, very seriously the notion of how bad a nuclear iran could be. but this -- i don't -- i see no need for and really fear the notion of a premature or an attack at all. >> how would you deal with it? >> the way we are now. the pressure that's going on in iran is having an enormous effect on its economy. the ahmadinejad regime is quite weak. there's a lot of internal politics now that suggest that ahmadinejad is not strong at all. i think an attack on iran at this moment or any time close to it is really a serious mistake. >> after 10 years of occupying two muslim countries, i don't know how we begin a war with a third. but let me ask you, have you come to terms with what would be worse, a nuclear iran or a third war against a third muslim country? >> i think that's unanswerable at this point. but i think the policy is in place right now of increasingly difficult sanctions on iran, and they are having a very serious effect. we had a reporter, laura seacor, who was in iran. very hard visa to get now. she was there for a while. even on a week's visit, it was evident the pain that these things are exacting. and the administration is trying to obviously as the paper showed over the weekend to open up negotiations with iran. i don't discount how difficult it is and how unreliable a negotiating partner iran will be. but i just -- to rush in headlong like that seems like a terrible mistake. >> you need to go to politico. let's go to politico right now, chief white house correspondent for politico mike allen here with the morning play book. good morning, mike. >> good morning, guys. >> and we in the media are often accused of ignoring ron paul, a republican presidential candidate. but you're talking about ron paul leaving a legacy after this campaign is over. >> he is. and we're going to get to that in two seconds. but, joe, you know that playbook is big on birthdays. >> is it ron paul's birthday? >> it's elizabeth santorum's birthday, the senator's oldest daughter. >> see? exactly. >> his oldest daughter is 21. >> oh, that's great. >> that's nice. >> i like when he humanizes things. it's what i loved about richard ben kramer's book what, it takes is he actually humanized the candidates and you just did as well. mike, what else you got? >> another scoop, and another birthday, the pride of atlanta, the pride of pensacola, roll tide, the joe in "morning joe," it's joe scarborough's birthday. >> i worked in my kitchen all day yesterday. look at this. >> yeah, yeah. >> look at this. >> you did a great job. >> i was about to say, you would burn it. wow, look at that. >> is this a forever 49 birthday? >> yeah, something like that. >> if you could say 39, that would be much better. >> happy birthday, joe. >> thank you so much. >> all right. very good. let's move on. mike allen, let's get back on topic and talk about rick santorum's eldest daughter. or the legacy that ron paul is leaving. talk about that. >> yeah. he's going to be out of office soon, and of course he is hoping to pass the torch to senator rand paul of kentucky. but politico discovered a couple of dozen former ron paul supporters are running around the country largely on his platform. we have some congress, some local offices. these are mostly also rans, and they are playing up more as libertarian candidates, not so much the isolation. but he has fielded a whole generation of younger candidates who are going to carry on these ideas. >> mark halperin, you go through whether it's a what, new hampshire, whenever you go, we were always noticing how bored the crowds were at the romney events and really even some of the santorum events where he would go on and on talking. but you went into a ron paul event, and -- i mean, i wasn't there in '64, but i would guess it was a lot like the goldwater race in '64 that ended in catastrophe for the party but started a much larger movement. >> i don't want to minimize it, but i think there is a glass half empty view of this, which is he could have been bigger. i think his views strike a bigger chord with a lot of americans than his supporter bases in part because of the debates stopped and because he did not perform that well as a candidates. huge following. but i think he missed a moment to really galvanize on smaller government and anti-foreign policy venturism. >> well, ron isn't a man stream candidate. i think it's telling, steve rattner, that you had somebody with ron paul's message that did as well as he did with his message. it's a message that carried this man. >> and it's a crazy message, to abolish the federal reserve in this day and age. it makes no sense. and he did appeal to a certain strain of emotion or thought or whatever out there, but i think it was destined and i think it will always be destined to be on the edge somewhere. >> but there are portions of the message that may be fringe, whether you talk about some of his foreign policy, most people view as being fringe, or you talk about his position on the fed, a lot of people think that. but the bigger, mike allen, the bigger point that the federal government has grown too quickly, it's got out of control, that there needs to be a counterbalance to it, that is what seems to me has resonance with a lot of americans. >> well, that's exactly right. and here is the other reason this is durable. the candidates are younger and almost all running as republicans. that's a game changer. >> yeah. and david remnick, you talk to younger -- my son is 24, and you talk to other younger kids that aren't really ideological -- >> you saw it on college campuses. >> they know they are not going to get social security or medicare. they know they are being sold out by politicians today. >> but what distinguished him was the fringe aspects. smaller government is a basic republican message. but when you have a foreign policy that's distinguished by complete isolationalism, and you have an economic policy distinguished from romney and the rest by the anti-federal reserve and the rest, then he becomes a fringe candidate. i understand his appeal was a libertarian appeal you see on campuses because it's so simp and he will so pure. but i think where he lost out and didn't gain the foot hold that he might have was he came off as a cranky old grandpa with some nutty ideas during the debate, and that didn't pay off. >> so there weren't a lot of people at the new yorker that contributed to ron paul's -- >> don't play that. come on. >> well, i think you and steve rattner may be looking at it glass half empty. >> he is a real communist. >> oh -- >> you and i can have that discussion. >> thank you. coming up, steve rattner has new detailing the friday jobs report, and what it might mean for the elections. keep it right here. and happy birthday. >> boy, that is nice. 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[ female announcer ] positively radiant. and for sun care that helps keep skin healthy and beautiful, try aveeno continuous protection sunscreen. your finances can't manage themselves. but that doesn't mean they won't try. bring all your finances together with the help of the one person who can. a certified financial planner professional. cfp. let's make a plan. what do you think is behind this slowdown? are you concerned about this number or is this good news? >> well, i think the general summary of most of what we're seeing in the economy right now is that we are making progress, but we still have a long way to go, because we're coming back from the deepest recession and downturn in our economy. in 80, 90 years. >> all right. >> well, you know, tj may not be here, but the effects of that friday interview from inside the white house still with us. that buzz on the m iesksics. thanks, tj. hope you're enjoying scranton right now. >> that was nice. >> the president kind of poked at me a little bit. >> he did poke at you. well, he only spoke the truth as he always does. >> as he always does? >> shall we play that bite? >> no, let's don't. >> i think it was a backhanded compliment. >> i know that bite. the better half, that's the message, that's the take away, right? >> yeah. that's a take away. what, do we have it? >> no. we're going go to rattner's charts. >> i prefer to that. steve, obviously the white house was -- you know, they've got to be careful. when the numbers are good, they know they can't overreact. when the numbers are less than positive as they were on friday, they don't want to act like the sky is falling. but a lot of condominiecommunii concerned. >> especially because you had such a warm winter and it throws off of the seasonal adjustments. if you look at what happened, you can see we were generally building pretty well towards a higher level of job creation and then we had a drop. the question is where do we go from here. the question is, nobody really knows. but if you do some simple math and say to yourself, over the last six months we created 188,000 jobs a month, then the last 12 months 150,000 jobs per month. if you take that as bracket of reasonable outcomes, we are looking at about 7.8 or 7.9% unemployment on election day. >> explain something to me that i read this weekend that i didn't understand. that people were talking about how economists were saying that perhaps we had more of a jump in job hiring because of the warm weather. tell me, how does that impact hiring? >> it's very simple. basically, there is something like 37,000 jobs actually lost in retailing when you do the seasonal adjustments in march. and those were jobs that people think were filled earlier in the year, in january and february, because of the warm weather. people hired retail people earlier in the season. >> because people are going out shopping. >> and that's why you get this sort of movement around. >> let's talk about the participation rate. this is one of the maddening things about these unemployment numbers, that if people decide they are going to participate in the job market, sometimes that drives numbers up. and if they stay at home because they are depressed because things are so bad, that actually can drive the unemployment number down. >> right. >> explain it. >> and it's why -- i understand politically why people focus on the unemployment rate, but the participation rate was sitting around 66% before we went into the recession. >> explain that again. >> 66% of americans either working or say they want to work. right? out of our total number of americans. then the recession comes. a bunch of people leave the labor force. either they retire, go on disability, they just decide they are not looking anymore. so the participation rate drops down to about the 64% rate. that's the same thing as 2% on the unemployment rate. all of those 66% had stayed in the labor force, we'd have over 10% unemployment. but they dropped out much the question is, where are they going from here? the numbers i just gave you assume that this number of 64% stays constant. if some of them come back in the labor force, the unemployment rate will be higher. if they continue to drop out as they did as recently as last month, the unemployment rate will be a little bit lower. >> shouldn't there be a better way to fry this egg than having an unemployment rate that goes down when people get so depressed at the bad economy they stop looking for work? >> look, it's the politics. that's why people look at that number. i think economists look at jobs. but one last thing that we leave that people don't pay very much now, and that is wages. people don't pay much attention to these numbers. but what you can see here is that wages have stayed very flat. they came down a lot, and have stayed very flat throughout this recovery. and i think politicly, this is potentially just as big a deal as the unemployment numbers or the jobs numbers, but the fact that the people don't have the purchasing power to sustain this recovery or to feel good about things. >> steve rattner, thank you. we'll be right back with the must read opinion pages. keep it right here on "morning joe." i want to thank everybody who has made this forum on women and the economy possible. i thank mika for helping moderate today, and proving that on your show every morning, that women really are the better half. joe's not denying it. he's not denying it. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. when i lost weight in all the right places. you know what i mean! 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[ laughs ] [ female announcer ] join now and get one month free. hurry offer ends april 21st. weight watchers online. finally, losing weight clicks. weight watchers online. they have names like idle time with free enterprise punsfee like hugh and crye, and smash records. and one saturday a year small businesses remind a nation of the benefits of shopping small. like the way david kaplan at shell lumber shows you how to use a chop saw. then invites you back when the warehouse becomes the community theater. or the way camille russler of ever after travels the journey from despair to bliss with every bride to be. on small business saturday 100 million of us joined a movement... and main street found its might again. and main street found its fight again. and we, the locals, found delight again. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the membership effect of american express. time now for the must read opinion pages. on the top of it you brought to the table, steve rattner, there are a couple of great pieces over the weekend about ceo pay as well as regular folks pay. here is the "new york times" still crawling out of a very deep hole. analysis by moody's shows that median household income in 2011 peaked at $56,000 in 2000 and did not rebound to that level. when the great recession hit, the income level fell again. though there has been some progress in the past two years, median income now at $52,000 is where it was in 1997, steve. and this article by theresa trich goes on to say without a revival in jobs, income, and home equity, other indicators of recovery like a rising stock market and more consumer spending largely reflects gains among the top echelon of earners. such lopsided growth can make for good news but doesn't per se broadly higher living standards. >> so, steve, one of the most frightening things over the past decade is the fact that for the first time when in the middle of an economic boom, really wages for americans have gone down. and the job gains sort of went away. we are becoming more productive. unfortunately as well you look and see what's happening in all of the western countries. the rich are getting richer. the poor are getting poorer. and a lot of it has to do with technology. >> look, yeah. the first decade of the 21st century was the first 10 years in which real incomes did not go up for a majority of americans. the recession after 2000, after the dot-com bubble collapse, was the first recovery in modern times where we never got back to the number of jobs we needed to keep the unemployment rate down at a reasonable level and then we tipped into this recession. it's been an unforeseeable -- ok, it's been rising and part of what you saw in the papers on sunday is all the proxy data coming out about how much ceos are getting paid. 93% of all the income gains in this country last year, in 2010, excuse me, went to the top 1%. it is becoming an economy in which those that are technically and intellectually enabled are able to do well and everybody else gets left behind. >> that's not a romney theme. in other words, with a better candidate on the republican side, he would be able to capitalize on that. but both in terms of his public image and his bearing and being a wealthy man, but also on policy he is perceived as being on the side of the 1% and the .001%, and i don't think that's a winner for romney. >> there are a lot of ways to try to figure out who is going to win. if romney can change that, can say i can do a better job of equalizing incomes, he can do that but it's a hard bibiogra b. >> the real median income has been going down and it continues. >> if you are a blue collar worker, less than high school, from 1979 until at least a few years ago, you lost 25% of your real income. that's what happened to you. up next, luke russert takes us to the masters highlights. >> all right. >> we'll be right back. >> now we have somebody who understands. >> whatever. durn'it, this thing's runnin' slow. bet you think you're pretty quick? yeah, i guess it is pretty quick. jesse?!? jesse? jesse?! much obliged. suddenly, everything else seems old-fashioned. ultrabook. inspired by intel. on december 21st polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space. which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd, and you still need to retire. td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans? a living, breathing intelligence helping business, do more business. in here, opportunities are created and protected. gonna need more wool! demand is instantly recognized and securely acted on across the company. around the world. turning a new trend, into a global phenomenon. it's the at&t network -- securing a world of new opportunities. ♪ welcome back. you know what? we have in the makeup room this thing that says in case of emergency, break glass. >> oh, i thought i was supposed to get my emergency blanket. >> i broke the glass andrussert understands sports. what a masters. i'm surprised by people who just don't get it. >> i was angry last night. >> what did you say? the biggest win -- >> i said bubba watson winning the masters of the biggest win for southern americans since bush was re-elected in 2004. would you agree? >> it was a big day. he's from my neck of the woods. >> almost in your district. >> no, he's in my district. >> my good nsz. >> it's a couple of miles away. >> let's go to the highlights. tiger woods was a nonfactor in the final round at augusta national. turning in the worst masters performance of his career. the crowd of hopefuls at the top of the leaderboard made it a sunday for the ages. oosthuizen was one off, but check this out. >> trying to use those slopes. this one could be very nice. could be very nice. >> oh, come to papa. yes! >> oosthuizen nails a double eagle fourth time on that hole, first in masters history. the fan who got the ball gave it back to the master, which was a nice deal. phil mickelson began one back of the leader, but he came undone on the fourth. shot it past the grandstand. lefty goes right to try to get the ball out of the woods but can't budge it. he finally moves out of the pines with his third shot, but triple bogeyed the hole and he would slide down the leaderboard. >> that hurts. >> looks just like joe. another american making a move here. here is our guy, bubba watson. drains the birdie putt on 16 to cap a run of four straight birdies. he would tie oosthuizen for the lead. both would par the final hole, setting up a sudden death playoff for the green jacket. watson and oosthuizen stayed tied through one hole. and then bubba watson needs to pull this off. after hitting his tee shot into the crowd, he gets it to hook 40 yards and sets it down on the green. oosthuizen putting for par, he can't find the hole. now all watson has to do is two-putt to get that green jacket. >> and bubba watson is wearing a green jacket at augusta! >> watson cannot contain his emotion after his hard-fought win. wins the green jacket. bubba watson, university of georgia, from baghdad, florida. >> baghdad. >> between the hedges they are happy. >> and also in northwest florida. the red neck -- >> some weird women in that club. enough, enough. >> stop it. come on. >> so the green jacket -- >> why would we want to be in it? >> you just don't get it. >> no, i don't. >> the green jacket. >> yes, what about the green jacket? >> you don't want to become a member of augusta national? >> why would i want to? what do men do there that i would find tempting? >> that's funny. andrea mitchell ahead with tom brokaw as well. 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[ male announcer ] yes, you could business pro. yes, you could. go national. go like a pro. hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. may i ask my question, please, sir? >> are you a representative of the zionist regime or a journalist? >> if he is the teflon presidency, nothing sticks. >> mine was the opposite. >> to get anything done, money. >> why are you so reluctant? >> get over here, mike. >> no. i have no intention of leaving until you tell me what's on your mind. >> how are you, sir? >> what is this? >> this is "60 minutes." >> wow. >> you were a crook. >> dog gone, i wish they didn't say that. >> you're contempible. i'd like you to get out of here. >> a large segment of white society is more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity. >> he interviewed legends and he was a legend in journalism. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us onset, we have steve rattner, mark halperin, and editor of "the new yorker" david remnick. and from washington, host of andrea mitchell reports, andrea mitchell. good to have you on the show. >> good morning. thank you so much. >> what a day for it. >> andrea, we have been talking about mike wallace and the impact he had on journalism. talk about the impact he had on you. and your career. >> well, he was such a pioneer. there are very few people in our business that are not imitators. he was the original. he was the first really tough interrogator in journal. and just look at the ayatollah khomeini saying to him, you know, not me, imam, but, you know, sadat, a devout muslim, is the one who says you're a lunatic. and just the way he melded performing and journalism. it was extraordinary. he was unique. >> there's no doubt about it. >> we have the highlights of the sound bite, the interview, with the ayatollah khomeini, this is in 1979 during the iranian hostage crisis. >> president sadat of egypt, a devoutly religious man, a muslim, says that what you are doing now is, quote, a disgrace to islam, and he calls you i-imam, forgive me, his words, not mine, a lunatic. >> translator: sadat states he is a muslim and we are not. he is not for he compromises with the enemies of islam. so that has united with our enemies. >> andrea mitchell just said the same thing. >> and sadat would be dead in a year or two. mark halperin, talk about -- you said you wanted to say something about mike wallace, and now you just leave me out there. >> no. i thought you asked me about jobs. >> he did. >> i said we're going to talk about jobs in a minute. >> what is great is that everybody you could have on here from the television business in the last quarter century or more would say the same thing. i mean, this is a consensus, a well-earned consensuconsensus, guy was an original. and we talked earlier about the show biz aspects that's just a part of television news. and the key is to bring to the table showmanship and journalism. and the reason "60 minutes" is still such a powerhouse is because they retained the values, not just the production values but the journalism values, that mike wallace and don hewitt brought to the show for years in its beginnings. >> and they understood, andrea mitchell, that if you were going to get people to watch, that you had to have an entertaining aspect to it. >> absolutely. >> that you had to keep people watching. but they did great journalism while they were also entertaining. >> you know, i always felt that mike wallace's career, the roots in "night beat," his interview show when you saw the smoke curling, the black and white interview show, with so many people from the theater world, really formed the basis not for the gotcha chase journalism, you know, those memorable moments as well, but for the way he drew out nancy reagan, barbra streisand, you know, all of those figures, in that part of the world. that had a lot to do with it. and, you know, he knew edith davis. his friendship with nancy reagan was rooted in his friendship with her mother. so they went way, way back. yet you saw that interview that you played earlier where he went after nancy reagan, and went after ronald reagan when he was running first as governor and then for the presidency. but went after nancy reagan for their post presidential trip to japan where they were paid $2 million. and she went right back at him. >> she sure did. >> i mean, it was just extraordinary that he would be willing to take on these figures who were family friends, to say nothing of, you know, the iconic former president and former first lady. nobody took on nancy reagan. let me tell you as someone who tried and failed. you just did not do it. so mike was just fearless. and that instinct that made him just go for it full blast always until the last "60 minutes" broadcast that he did at 89. and he acknowledged his frail tees, his depression. he lost a son, david. and he had a son, chris, who has had such a stellar career. and i knew chris' wife, mary yates, whose son briefly worked here in this very newsroom at the beginning of his career, just going through college. so there are so many roots it's a small family. and mike wallace, even for those of us who didn't work with him as you did, mika, was just the legend. he was the man. >> and i would add to what you said about the reagan interview and how he would take on close family friends, close family friends as well as major superstars and world leaders expected nothing less from him. and sat there fully aware as to what was about to happen. moving on to other news, the u.s. economy. the jobs numbers that came out friday worth talking about. added just 120,000 jobs in march. that's the smallest increase in the past five months. according to the latest government numbers that were released last week. economists and market analysts expect the number of jobs created to be in the 200,000s. they expected that. the unemployment number dipped 8.2 p 8.3. but mainly because many people stopped looking for work, and that's one of the big issues is the long-term unemployed, which are extremely high numbers compared to other dips we've seen historically. >> really high numbers. and, mark, you were saying before that the romney team feels confident that there's not going to be a turn-around in the economy, and that they're going to be able to run on a very simple argument in the fall, which peggy noonan about a year ago sort of previewed, which is he's made things worse. >> and he hasn't put us on a path to make anything better will be their argument, and the president will make a counterargument. there's a lot of economic structural reasons why the recovery is not really taking off. we're not going backwards but it's not really taking off. there's a political question, though, which is some of the uncertainty, some of the economic drag, is caused by the fact that washington doesn't have its act together. businesses worried about the health care law, worried about regulation, the budget deaf fits, and it's going to be a big problem for whoever is the president come november to try and make the numbers better. i don't think the fundamentals will think fixed, given the supreme court decision on health care, congress is in gridlock, before the election. >> david, you're going to have two arguments going into the fall, and we know this already. mitt romney will say the president made it worse. the president will say -- >> saved us from a depression. >> things would have been so much worse if i had not been the things i have done. >> and if we go back to the bush policies. >> exactly. >> so those are the two arguments. >> or a ryan like budget, which favors the wealthy even more. >> it seems to me, david, that the president -- and this has nothing to do with ideology or economics. just looking at the argument which is harder to prove in a courtroom or on a campaign trail, things could have been worse. unmitigated damages. you just don't see it. >> very hard to run against an unknown. >> right. >> nevertheless, he is running against a particular person. this is a person worth a quarter of a billion dollars, whose job -- whose wealth is not created in an entrepreneurial way. he did something that's related to going and firing people. that's going to be painted very sharply by the obama people. and i think the obama people are going to come out of the box and attack him on the level of both his wealth and his personality and his bearing but also on policy. and say, look, look at the policies that romney is proposing. do you think that will accrue more wealth and jobs to people on the lower half of things, or is it going to rebound mostly to the very, very top? to the very, very top? so it's very hard for me to see how this issue plays into the republican hands, particularly into mitt romney's hands in a presidential race. very difficult. the president should not be arrogant about what's going to happen in november. he wanted a supposed landslide last time but with 53% of the vote. so we don't know what's going to happen. it's foolish to predict for a certainty. but i don't see how the economy plays to mitt romney's strengths. what those strengths might be, i don't know. >> steve rattner, the president it seems to me, my gut, would be that the president needs to aggressively talk about what he's done right in his mind, the auto bailout, the bank bailout, and we're talking about, quote, the bailouts which have polled bad in the past. they are polling better now. but it seems to me that the president has to embrace those, especially when he is running in the midwest and when he is running in the states that would have been affected if gm had been shut down. >> it's interesting. because he has embraced the auto bailout for more than a year now. for a while it got no traction, and now the polls have reversed. and the auto bailout which was very unpopular now a majority of americans still favor it. but i think from a purely political point of view, embracing the bank bailout and god for bid embracing obama care is very, very difficult. so you saw the anniversary of obama care go almost unnoticed because it remains very unpopular even though it is his signature accomplishment. but going back to where you started this discussion, look, it's a fact that when the president took office the economy was losing 700,000 jobs a month. the banks were teetering. the auto industry was teetering. and today, life is hardly perfect, but it's certainly demonstratively a lot better. and i know there is a debate as to whether or not absolutes determine elections oregon -- or the trends. >> we heard the president last week and gene sperling at the white house forum on women focusing on the republicans, the republican budget, the ryan budget, and going after it for being completely out of whack, completely against trying to help americans get a leg up, and destructive toward women and the poor. >> in their view. >> in their view. >> yes. >> it's interesting that mitt romney in campaigning in wisconsin with paul ryan and what seemed to be a tryout clearly he is on the short list for romney, assuming he gets the nomination, that paul riyan woud be a person he looks at very closely as a possible running mate. it seems to me that romney is embracing the ryan budget in a big way, he can't run away from it. so this is the debate. the obama view of the ryan budget, and the ryan-romney view that the government is out of whack. so this is a profound debate about the role of government in our society. i was very interested in glenn cussler's fact checker in "the washington post" this weekend where he looked at the romney republican claims based on a kaiser study of health care. and health premiums and points out how absolutely wrong it is, how they are cherry-picking those numbers, how the obama people did the same thing in trying to flaunt the advantages of it, even before it's kicked in, and how the romney people are also completely misstating the economic impact so far at least of the obama health reform plan. yet at the same time, i'm not sure that the facts are ever going to get through to anyone because you're going to hear so much from super pacs and campaign ads that that's the way the obama health insurance is going to be defined. >> so, mark, we've heard -- i think there's a sense around this table that at least three people around this table believe the president has a more persuasive argument than mitt romney moving forward. i'll take the other side of thissy is bait and just say there's a general feeling that has nothing to do with proposed budgets that we know will never see the light of day in washington, d.c., that there say belief among business owners and ceos that there is $2 trillion on the sidelines. but because of uncertainty in washington, because of gridlock in washington, because of uncertainty on the president's views on taxes, on health care reform, on regulatory reform, regulatory ramping up, because of the president's overall world view on profits, on capitalism, on economics, on markets, that there are a lot of people who supported the president four years ago that say, i'm just not going to invest right now in the economy because i don't know what washington is going to do next. >> andrea i think referenced what is probably the most important story, which is this "new york times" story about cross roads finally doing what the obama campaign has been concerned about, going on tv with paid advertising to define the president as anti-business and bad for the economy. paid advertising doesn't matter as much in presidential campaigns, it's what the candidates do, but this is a big moment to see if they can define him on those terms, helping mitt romney for the next couple of months when the election could be won or lost. >> do you know what i think is going to hurt the republican party and mitt romney a lot? the supreme court. the supreme court is increasingly seen as politicized. the citizens united case seen as politics with black robes to inject more and more and more free money into the political process. a supreme court under-romney will be seen as something that you referenced the business of the so-called war on women is not seen as a happy future for women. there are many cases coming down the pike that i don't think play to the majority opinion in this country, and the fear is if this supreme court becomes more and more dominant right wing and politicized the way it is, and the way the case that we're seeing now, i think that plays very well to barack obama. >> but, david, i think "the new york times" cbs poll showed the week of the oral arguments that 67% of americans wanted the supreme court to overturn the individual mandate. that doesn't seem to me that if they overturn the individual mandate that the president will be able to paint them as right-wing stooges when two out of three americans want them to do that. that seems like a very mainstream political point of view. >> i don't think so. >> 67% is mainstream, david. >> i not thunderstand that. but i think the obama administration would be able to come back and say, if that's what you want to do, we'll destroy this health care program. i think it will really undermine and it will start to get chipped away in a very serious way. >> we're just talking the politics here, because you said they would be painted as right wingers. but a health care plan that remains unpopular. >> i think the legitimacy of the case itself, the argument about that has not been made in a coherent way yet by the obama administration, and i think it will be. >> why is that? >> i don't know. i think there is still this kind of test, this reluctance about arguing with the supreme court. it's seen as inviable, as separate. and when obama started making even a slight argument about the supreme court he was whacked down as not knowing about the division of powers, which is not true obviously. this is a highly, highly politicized supreme court. there's no question about it. and you could argue that it's the most politicized since the warren court on the other side of the ledgers in the '60s. but i think that this is going to be a big, big issue, and citizens united, it's going to be an issue too. you're going to see these ads pouring in, even more on a national level. and they may work for some people, but i think they may become issues -- >> are the liberal judges less political than the conservative justices? >> in this time around, yes. i think in the '60s, you would have to say that the warren court was highly politicized. >> well, i don't want to have a back and forth here. >> clarence thomas and antonin scalia more politicized? yes, i would say so. >> how could it be that i knew, and everybody that had half a brain knew, that the second the 11th circuit sent this up to the supreme court that there would be four votes for barack obama's health care plan, and you brought up elena kagan. again, i have -- she was solicitor general, so i'm not knocking her. but you're claiming that she is up on mt. olympus and not politicized. she was writing emails to lawrence tribe following the number of senate votes they had with exclamation points saying, i think we've got the votes! fantastic! now, i don't knock her for being a human being, for being politicized. >> every judge has a life before they sit on the supreme court. there's no question. >> what's the measure that she is less political? >> there's a difference. otherwise, you say everybody on the court is equally politicized. i would not say that. >> i knew that there would be four votes for this, to uphold this health care law, before the first argument was made. and you did too. so i'm -- again, i'm not knocking them for having a world view. >> would you say that the nature of the questioning from the bench was equally politicized on both sides? i don't think so. >> yes. when ruth bader ginsberg, who has every right to do it, again, i -- >> she asked a question like the broccoli question? >> well, ruth bader ginsberg realized and even ezra klein said this in "the washington post" at some point that she was going to have to carry the argument for the solicitor general because the solicitor general wasn't doing his job for the white house. ezra klein said she felt it was her job. now, i don't see this as a negative. i have the greatest respect for all members of the supreme court. i just question those on the left now saying that the right is doing things it's never happened before. of course, the right says that about the left when -- and just wait until anthony kennedy upholds the law. >> i don't know how he's going to go. >> and wait for the hell to rain down from the heavens from the right. >> which is more likely, that a liberal votes to strike it down or that kennedy or roberts votes to uphold it? >> what is more likely? >> well, we all know the answer to that. >> ok. but that doesn't solve the question that -- >> that's just more politicized then. >> oh, that's ridiculous. >> who knows how they are going to vote? >> we know how they are going to vote. we don't know how roberts is going to vote? >> joe, but a highly politicized court, and i may have liked very much the outcome of those things. but you can't say that the people on the left side of the ledger in the supreme court are as highly politicized as clarence thomas and scalia. you just can't. >> if i'm the editor of "the new yorker," no, i cannot. >> this is nonsense for a republican congressman from florida. >> i think both sides are politicized. >> we all look through a prism. >> but my prism allows me see that both sides are politicized. >> look, both sides i think are politicized. and i think if it's a 5-4 vote either way, i think it's disappointing for the country to not have more of a consensus behind such an important issue. >> i think it's more likely we have a 6-3 decision if kennedy breaks with the president. because i think roberts is far more of an incrementalist than thomas. >> fascinating. >> then justice thomas, yes, absolutely. >> here we find a little point of agreement. >> thank you. >> i don't see that as a negative. i could name quite a few liberal justices as well. up next, the secretary of housing and urban development shean donovan will join us next on the set. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. pull on those gardening gloves. grab the nearest spade. and let's see how colorful an afternoon 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[ male announcer ] get investing advice for your family at e-trade. the number of new foreclosures is down 50% since the president came into office. the one place we continue to see struggles is looking for a consistent strong recovery in house prices. we are seeing that in a lot of markets. about y but nondistress sales have actually been increasing, but it's the foreclosures that are still coming on the market, the shadow inventory, that are dragging down prices in places like florida, as joe would know. >> where are prices now? i'm hearing that homes are beginning to really move again, and the market has done a, you know, sort of level that you hear from your friends buying homes and actually selling their homes. but not at the same price. not even close. correct? >> that's right. and for a lot of people, this is the best time in a generation to buy a home. it's now because rental housing is actually stronger, what you see is the prices for housing have never been better. one of the challenges, though, is getting a loan. and this is why this recent settlement that we arrived at that was actually approved by a federal district court judge last week, so it's now going to go into effect, one of the things it will do is provide more certainty about new lending. so the hope is that it will help to contribute to more credible available for folks to be able to buy a home. >> david said the time for buying has never been buying as far as prices go. obviously, the man has not been shopping in manhattan, because the prices just keep going up here. i'm waiting for the recession to hit. >> the rent is too damn high. >> it is. andrea mitchell, you have a question. go ahead. >> i'm wondering why with so many things going in favor of it, and obviously the low interest rates, why do you think new home sales have dipped? and what are your expectations going forward? is there anything you can do to try to spur more new home sales? >> well, existing home sales, which are really the critical -- far and away the largest piece of the market have been the best they've been in five years over this winter stretch. new home sales were down a little bit last month. but the problem is until we really have this backlog of homes that are on the market, vacant homes that have been foreclosed, until those really start to move out of the system, you're not going to see new home sales back at the levels that were precrisis. they are stronger than they've been on average over the last few months, but a full recovery is really going to depend on moving the shadow inventory. good progress on that this winter. the number of homes for sale, the inventory of homes for sale, is down to about six months, which is very close to what a typical market would see and the best we've had in about three years. >> secretary, i read in the "new york times" this morning that federal funds to sort of retrain workers are at their lowest level than 2006. as we always know, more workers working, more homes are bought. do you think it was a mistake to save unemployment benefits that money would that go to retrain workers as has been agreed to, cuts agreed to, between the president and john boehner? is it a mistake to have those huge cuts which hurts workers being retrained to buy houses? >> well, i would say that it isn't that the president and speaker boehner agree on where we ought to be focusing our domestic spending. the president is very clear we shouldn't balance the budget on the backs of the most vulnerable. and clearly worker training is an area where the president is working with the private sector to try to make up for some of those reductions. but one of the things that's important about -- you talk about job creation, home equity is one of the places where people really get the money to start businesses around the country. it's critical not just for sending your kids to college, saving for retirement, but a lot of small businesses are started through home equity. and so one of the things that we are pushing very hard on is making sure that we start to reduce the negative equity that folks have in their home and to allow them to refinance. we have interest rates at the lowest level in half a century, and yet it hasn't provided the same boost to the economy you would typically see, and refinancing is one of the ways to do that. >> thank god for reverse mortgages. [ laughter ] >> see we have heard economists say for some time that the economy is not going to turn around until housing comes back. how important is the housing market hitting the bottom and starting to turn around to the overall economy? >> well, it's terrifically important. and i'm really concerned about cities that have just been wiped out. you referenced florida before. you look at new orleans, detroit, cities like that, and i'd want to know what's going to happen there. these are places that have just been devastated for reasons that vary for different economic reasons. i would love to know what the housing situation is in cities like that. >> in fact, i was just in jacksonville last week. but detroit is a particular case, like some of the former industrial cities, where manufacturing is on the way back, but what you have there is a decades long challenge. not just a challenge of the last few years. so a lot of the work we're doing there is investing in renovating and rebuilding properties or demolishing them. the president has proposed a $15 billion investment that would put 200,000 construction workers back to work. we call it project rebuild. renovating and rebuilding homes in these neighborhoods. and that's a critical part of jump-starting a recovery there. >> all right, secretary shaun donovan, great to have you on the show. andrea, come back as well. >> who do you have on your show at 1:00? >> the great mark halperin and richard engel. richard engel from pyongyang. >> and i'm sure you'll be doing a special segment, perhaps eight minutes long, on joe's birthday. >> we'll see about that. happy birthday, joe. >> thank you, andrea. still ahead, we'll talk to new york mayor cory booker. this is delicious okay... is this where we're at now? we just eat whatever tastes good? like these sweet honey clusters... actually there's a half a day's worth of fiber in every ... why stop at cereal? bring on the pork chops and the hot fudge. fantastic. are you done sweetie? yea [ male announcer ] fiber one. on december 21st polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space. which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd, and you still need to retire. td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans? when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). didn't really pay too much attention to honestly. i came to yountville really because of the french laundry. this is the place i had been looking for all my career. so i decided to plant a bay laurel seedling to commemorate that. as a chef we are always committed to our suppliers... you know those farmers, those foragers, those gardeners, those fishermen... for me it's really about building this extraordinary community. american express is passionate about the same thing. they're one of those partners that i would really rely on to help branch out my business. whether it's finding new customers... or a new location for my next restaurant. once you have strong support around you, then you can do anything. now this town has become a bit of a food metropolis. and that little bay laurel, it provides bay leaves for every one of my restaurants. the customers, tools, and insights to help grow your business. that's the membership effect of american express. four walls and a roof is a structure. what's inside is a home. home protector plus from liberty mutual insurance, where the cost to both repair your house and replace what's inside are covered. so your life can settle right back into place. to learn more, visit libertymutual.com today. on tomorrow's show, we're going to talk to congressman paul ryan. also, senior campaign adviser to president obama, david acel rod. >> we need to get them together. >> separately. up next, tom brokaw is standing by. keep it right here on "morning joe." losing weight clicked for me when i found a plan that was as active and on the go as i was. weight watchers online is absolutely that tool. it was never further away than my pocket. my sidekick! the weight tracker really let me see that my real problem area was when i was traveling. it allowed me to kind of tailor my plan to my lifestyle. i lost 29 pounds with weight watchers online. i am like me times five. i'm like cara intensified. 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[ laughter ] >> he remembered that. >> talk about mike wallace's place in broadcast history. >> well, it's -- hey really did drive "60 minutes" to where it became, and he was next to tim russert, those were the two best interviewers in american broadcast journalism. mike set the pace early on there. he had a great style. i always thought he was helped by his early career as an actor. he began as a radio actor, and then he was in television, did commercials, he did "night beat." he was a close friend of nancy reagan's mother, so he has known nancy since she was like 16 or 17. they were longtime friends. and so when he became -- he decided to become a serious journalist, he went to vietnam, went to work for cbs news, was on the floor of the conventions. and then those interviews brought us all on sunday nights right to "60 minutes." and i always loved that phrase, the most feared words in american life is, mike wallace is on the phone, and he wants to talk to you. >> the thing my dad did was he would try to learn as much as he could about a guest and then take the other side. and wallace did that before my dad. >> yeah. >> and it's an amazing style. and what i want to ask you, though, is you see that year, 1918, that's one year after jfk was born. i mean -- >> the year after my mother was born. my mother's age. >> can you recall anybody, even in print, that's had the longevity that mike wallace had and was there for every single event in this century? i mean, he is journalist -- the sen tarrian journalist. >> but, luke, there's something in the walter at cbs. think about walter cronkite. he lived to be 92. we just lost andy rooney not so long ago. they covered the beginning of world war ii and all through the war and the cold war and the man on the moon and the assassination of john f. kennedy. those three guys worked into their late 80s and early 90sa the cbs, and they were driven by what was going on. and i think in part because they grew up at a time when this industry was maturing, and the world was at stake. there were big, big issues that were in play. >> do you think they changed socially? obviously, they came up through the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, through the women's rights movement. did you see a social change in them? >> i think the social change -- i think that they were really defined by their departure in when they grew up and then by world war ii. that was the largest event in the history of mankind. and andy never tired talking about it, neither did walter. mike was in the navy, and he was on active duty in the pacific and came back and worked at a navy base. but then after that, in the 1950s, broadcast journalist just exploded. he had earlier radio, but suddenly it was on television. and they had an opportunity to be serious journalists on this new medium. and i think they were just excited by the opportunities they had, because they all started with no expectations that they would become famous, wealthy, and important figures in american life. and what i liked about the three of them is that if they came in here and sat down now, they'd have some smart alecy remark to the three of us, you know, and be as approachable as you can possibly imagine. >> it is extraordinary how they went from seven-inch black and white televisions into the internet age. you have had this complete generational change at "60 minutes." it's still doing great in the ratings but you have a new set of faces. how do you see it evolving and how do you assess it now versus when you had the guys we were just talking about doing it? >> well, you know, i assess it about great envy sitting across the aisle from them because they have kept it evolving constantly with these really strong stories, including one about polo which would not necessarily engage me but it did. and it was a wonderful story about the symphony in the congo that no one had any idea about. and they went all the way there and did it. and then of course they had a lead story about the european economy and what the consequences could be for the united states. their audience is older. no question about that. and as i watched them, i thought, could there be a story about technology? should there be more about what's going on in new fields and with younger people and how they are changing in social media? but, you know, they have got a grip on this 7:00 hour, helped in part by one of the great masters of the history of journalism. >> that's what mika thinks. >> you just talked about last night's rundown on "60 minutes" about this quirky story about musicians in the congo, and another quirky story about a polo player. that would not work on any other format. but "60 minutes" knows how to tell the story. and, mika, that's what -- you were talking about don hewitt, when he was teaching you how to track for a "60 minute" piece. he tore up your script and said tell the story. at the end of the day, tom, it comes down to -- >> tell me a story. >> communication of story telling. >> he was a genius. and don's mantra was just a simple line, tell me a story. and just like what tim would do, is you're going to learn something from this guy you didn't know before when we sit down here, and there will are things he's not going to want to answer because i found them out. and i always thought tim was helped a lot in part because he worked and grew up in politics so he knew it from the other side. and mike did all this research. and then don hewitt, they would have a screaming match in the editing room about what was going to work and what wasn't going to work, and it was a very competitive environment over there. >> oh, my gosh. competitive? that's like not even enough of a word. it was -- i mean, it was fight to the death to edit a piece there. and blood on the floor at the end of each one, because they would make it the best, the collaborative aspect, the team fighting it out, is what makes a great story there. >> it's a great tribute to cbs and what they have done with "60 minutes" and also to the importance of broadcast journalism. one of the founding fathers of nbc news was ruben frank, who invented the huntley brinkley report. he had the best single phrase about the difference between television and print, which is that television transmits experience. you are taken into something in a way that you can understand it as a viewer, as opposed to the more abstract piece of something that you're reading in print. you're motivated and moved in different ways by print. but television can take you there. and they understood that early on. and kept that very high bar going the entire time. and mike was a huge piece of it, obviously. >> tom, stay with us. coming up, shining the spotlight on religion. how issues of faith are taking center stage on broadway. 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[ male announcer ] aarp is bringing the conversation on medicare and social security out from behind closed doors in washington. because you've earned a say. we asked total strangers to watch it for us. thank you so much, i appreciate it, i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money ? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. no nonsense. just people sense. 52 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." hard to walk down broadway's theater district today without seeing that religion and faith have taken center stage. the book of mormon, leap of faith, jesus christ superstar, god spell and sister act, just to name a few. joining us now, the president of five different theaters on broadway, jordan rough, what is on the show? >> what is going on with the revival? >> the revival of revivals. >> four different plays, obviously, sister act far different than the book of mormon different from jesus christ superstar, a hit from the early '70s. what's going on? >> well, you know, it's -- it's the same way that religion is such a powerful force in politics, nothing unites us like our religions, nothing unidivid us like our religions. the theater reflects our culture back at us that's why there's theater. the theater it helps us come together and see our world and see ourselves. >> the shows are doing well? >> so well. >> "book of mormon" is insane, country get tickets, which makes booth you and steve rattner very happy. >> happy boys today. >> how about "jesus christ, superstar," how is the revival doing? >> very well. the shows fall into two different camps, the re-enactments of the gospels, "jesus christ superstar" and "god spell," the morality plays, characters having a crisis of faith and finding their way back to faith that is "book of mormon," "leap of faith" and "sister act." the re-enactments of the gospels, "superstar" is a passion play, telling the passion of had christ and really throughout the ages, artists have reinterpreted the gospels, retold the gospels in the vocabulary in their generation. so both "superstar" and "god spell" were the early '70s, vocabulary was rock 'n' roll. and now reinterpreted for today's audience. >> tom, you remember back in the early '70s. >> i remember "jesus christ superstar" very well. >> it was not mainstream in the early '70s, whether you were from the dakotas or the deep south. that offended a lot of people, but much has changed. >> by then i was living in california. >> i know that. >> your roots. >> slightly different place and time obviously. but the other thing is that whatever the era culturally, the stories of faith are so rich and the characters are so much larger than life and how we get attracted to religion and doubts that we may have or how we give ourselves over to religion, whether you are a mormon or a muslim or whether you're an evangelical christian, or a jew for that matter, there are these stories that you just can't improve on in a way. >> the greatest story ever told. >> the greatest story ever told. you go in there and fine tune them for whatever the culture requires at the time and you've got something going on that people are constantly questioning. >> and that's what's so interesting about particularly these morality plays is that they -- they are not about a particular denomination. these characters find their way to something larger than themselves, something more universal in faith. in "sister act" it is a faith in sister act and community u in leap of faith, it's a faith in love that to let yourself love another person and be loved in return is the ultimate leap of faith. and in "the book of mormon" it is a faith in whatever story makes sense for you. doesn't matter what the story is. doesn't matter how crazy anybody else thinks it sounds, if it gives you comfort, if it gives you peace, it's a way forward. >> on the other hand, i was watching over the weekend, standing around, and "the ten come manltds" were on with charlton heston. it was almost a caricature, you kept thinking, this was serious? they thought this was a real film? >> stop that tom. come on, now. you can tell he moved to l.a. >> i know, he is mr. l.a. >> mr. l.a. >> yes. >> charlton heston. stop that. >> enough. clyburn park, you producing? >> yes exit is game on at clyburn park. we just finished our second week of previews and audiences are laughing hysterically and can't believe what they are seeing on that stage and leaving, talking, talking, talking. it is the most provocative and entertaining experience. >> what theater is that at? >> at the walter kerr. see you there >> i will see you. going. >> bring it. thank you so much. it is so great. you are coming back, right? >> any time. >> you better. newark mayor corey beaker joins us onself. >> he has followed barnicle and myself down the fashion runway of untucked shirts. >> yes. >> i knew i liked you. >> much more elegantly. >> better than you are. >> elegantly and takes his time. >> happy birthday. >> thank you. >> "morning joe" will be right back. today is gonna be an important day for us. you ready? we wanna be our brother's keeper. what's number two we wanna do? bring it up to 90 decatherms. how bout ya, joe? let's go ahead and bring it online. attention on site, attention on site. now starting unit nine. some of the world's cleanest gas turbines are now powering some of america's biggest cities. siemens. answers. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. may i ask my question please, sir? >> are you the representative of the zionist regime or a journalist? >> if his is the teflon presidency, nothing sticks. >> mine was the opposite. >> you get anything done, money? why are you so reluctant -- no, i have no intention of leaving until you tell me what's on your mind. >> what is this? >> this is "60 minutes." >> wow. >> you're a crook. >> doggone, i wish they didn't say that. >> you are contemptible. >> i mean this, i would like to you get out of here. >> a large segment of white society is more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity. >> good morning it is monday, 8:00 on the east coast, you take a live look at new york city, back with us on set, we have steve rattner, mark halperin and david rem nick. >> the sad news everybody expected, family expected, doesn't lessen the shock of it, just a pioneer, a great man, a great journalist passed away yesterday and a guy you worked with and knew well. >> mike wallace, known for his tough, abrasive at times questioning on "60 minutes" died at a care facility on saturday night surrounded by his family. throughout his 60-year career, wallace was at the forefront of history, whether he was pressing world leaders or scolding celebrities, the iconic newsman perfected the art of the interview. his style mixed excitizens sive research with a fair scare of skepticism, a daunting question for anyone hoping to dodge questions or hide the truth. although mike wallace was an early champion of the ambush interview, he later said the best information was exposed one-on-one. wallace started his career in radio as an announcer. when television emerged in the 1950s, he hit the air waves, starring in commercials and game shows. his first stint in news came on the local new york show "night beat." it was wallace's hard-charging interview style that got him tapped to launch cbs "60 minutes" in 1968, a program that would definitely define journalism for generations. wallace won 21 emmy awards, five du pont columbia journalism awards and five peabody awards. mike wallace retired from public life in 2008 after undergoing triple bypass surgery. he is survived by his wife, son and two stepchildren. mike wallace was 93. >> and you obviously worked with mike and don hewitt. >> mm-hmm. >> very kind, early on calling us, talking about the show. you -- i mean, so many of these guys that you worked with have all -- we have lost them in the past. >> bradley, andy rooney. >> yeah. >> the best. the ones who started it all and knew how to create moments without overshadowing them and knew how to find news and presented in a way that they could fully understand the true essence of someone's personality or what the story was and really walk away thinking. wallace, his work speaks for itself. he was close friends with ronald and nancy reagan and as midded that he often felt he had to be extra tough on them in interviews. take a look. >> how many blacks are there on your top campaign staff, governor? >> i couldn't honestly answer you. >> that speaks for itself. >> huh? >> i say that speaks for itself. >> no, because i can't tell you how many people are on the staff. >> but you can tell black from white? >> oh, yes. >> what was your husband's role in iran contra? >> nothing. i mean, it was -- >> come on, he was president of the united states. >> it was what -- i don't know enough about iran contra, mike, to talk to you intelligently about it. all i know is that he did not think he had done anything wrong. he didn't know of anything that was going on. >> you're gonna be in japan and i'm told it's a $2 million two weeks. >> they are getting two of us. they are working like crazy. >> but it's going to be a well recompensed two week he is. >> it is for everybody who goes there, which you probably know. and you really didn't need that question. >> i love it. >> spice. >> which you probably know. >> david, i remember watching that and at the time, i had no idea how close they were, but that just speaks volumes to who mike wallace was, that he was toughest on his friends, even if it meant putting his friendships at risk. >> you know, i was doing a research for a book on muhammad ali and i went back and watched his old interviews with malcolm x for a long series that he did long before there was "60 minutes" and it had all of mike wallace in it. it had the toughness, the appearance of toughness, the kind of self-regard, it had the too muchness of mike wallace, and there was a lot of that, too. but what i like most about him is that most tv journalism is too soft. it's too soft. it doesn't go hard enough and it lays back and he was something -- something very -- >> or on the other end, it's too hard without the context and it's too ideological. here's -- you mentioned malcolm x -- >> and just explain that. there's too much cynicism. >> yeah. >> but somehow -- >> you got to let the story breathe. >> these days, cynicism has been mixed with a clubbiness that turns a lot of reporting into -- >> i didn't like the sense, to be honest, give a round portrait of mike wallace. i didn't like the stunts and hidden cameras and the kind of gotcha interviews on little guys who, you know, he had a little scam going, all of a sudden, all the power of "60 minutes" was brought into the -- there was a lot of theater going on. for somebody in print that is kind of a weird and alien thing and even people in television. eventually, mike wallace and don hewitt came to kind of see it was making a parody of "60 minutes" and they regretted it. the full essence of mike wallace's work was seen in small, beautiful interviews and nothing to do with high jinx. here is mike wallace is human activist malcolm x just before his assassination. >> do you feel that perhaps you, now, should take over the leadership of the black muslims? >> no i have no desire to take over the leadership of the black muslims. and i have never had that desire. but i have this desire, the desire to see the afro american in this country get the human rights that you are his due to make a complete human being. >> are you the least bit afraid of what might happen to you as a result of making these revelations? >> oh, yes. i probably am a dead man already. >> marked. mark halperin, talk about how mike wallace not only influence you had but influenced a generation of journalists. >> to go back to something mika was saying, television requires big-time television which did he for so long requires big personalities there is a fine line to walk. down the want to be part of -- you don't want to dominate the story but you must if you are going head-to-head with world figures, you must be a big figure and his ability to tell stories of our time as a big figure but very rarely venture into the -- across the line yes became the story, incredible to perform at that level for so long. >> and steve rattner, you got your start in journalism and worked with scotty reston and worked at "the times" for a long time. explain how, and obviously, we have heard from david that often print and broadcast journalism are two different things and sometimes, the print journalists have looked down on tv broadcasters over the past 40, 50 years. but talk about how "60 minutes" was unique when it started in 1968 and moved forward through the 1970s, how print journalists might put their nose up in the air but in '71, '72, '73, '74, during watergate, everybody was watching every sunday night. >> yeah, you couldn't ignore it. it certainly was setting the conversation, setting the definition of what -- how people think about things like watergate. my first experience with mike wallace was when i worked for scotty reston, he came in to interview him and did he a long interview with him and i thought this is great, scotty restson going to be made famous by "60 minutes," i put a little sign up on the board, didn't have e-mail then, saying scotty reston would be on "60 minutes" that sunday. turns out he was doing a profile of ben bradley and used exactly one sentence from the interview scotty reston, which said that ben bradley's fast ball was better than his curve and that was it. >> pretty good soundbite. >> whatever it may have meant. >> no, what it meant was the fast ball is better than the curve. no, and scotty was appalled, because he was trying to say nice things about ben but an example sometimes it was pretty edgy. >> sometimes you would remember the question a lot more than the answer. he interviewed ayatollah khomeini, he hammered him and you barely remember the answer, but that's part, tough acknowledge that television journalism, "60 minutes" not least is partly news, it's partly a kind of show not a sitcom. >> i want to show that question expush back on that a little bit because there are a few you the greats left, i can't think of any, actually, outside of one or two, that are who they are off the air, on the air, and it's not a performance. >> you think for mike wall, what it was not a performance? don hewitt you it was not a performance. ed bradley, it was into the performance. andy rooney was just as cranky off the air as andy rooney was on the air. >> oh, my goodness that man -- >> more cranky off the air. >> every time i saw him he would criticize my shoes and criticize my attitude and criticize my voice. >> will with love. >> we saw quite a lot of mike wallace on martha's vineyard where he had a house for a long time and he was as driven and as focused and ever much the way you describe it. and in fact, he invented a phrase on the vineyard called vineyard midnight, 9:30, 10:00, no matter what was going on, he was going to go home and go to bed because he was thinking about journalism and what he was going to do next on "60 minutes." >> amazing that show is still roaring, i watched it last night, you don't see that kind of journalism all that often. >> photography and produce, the kind of work that goes into that the writing is amazing. >> all right. so you talked about the ayatollah during the iranian hostage crisis you 1979, wonderful years, he asked the ayatollah, being sarcastic, to respond to suggestions that he was crazy. >> president sadat of egypt, a devoutly religious man, a muslim, says that what you are doing now is "a disgrace to islam" and he calls, imam, forgive me, his words, not mine, a lunatic. >> sadat states he is a muslim. and we are not. he is not, for he compromises with the enemies of islam. so, that has united with our enemies. >> and sadat would be dead soon after that interview. >> add great move, mike wallace, any time he would say forgive me or please excuse me. >> you knew what was coming. >> here comes the left hook. >> talk about, mika, the colts are over there because you were working at cbs, "60 minutes 2" was started, started working -- got to work with him, not only that but also on the election coverage i think in '04, but talk about donny hewitt and what he taught -- just talk about the culture over there. there was a culture over there. we talked about the culture that survived with jeff fager over there now, just a toughness. >> well, a couple of things, i met mike wallace in the hall by the atm in the basement of cbs and he stopped me and remembered my work, talking about it and it was a very daunting moment because i had followed him all throughout my life and career, dreaming of being a journalist some day. and he was extremely charming, just as he is on camera, was on camera. and as far as don hewitt is concerned, who is another one of the greats, i got to work with him and he was coaching me, tracking a piece for "60 minutes." and these guys really know how to bring themselves into a story without becoming the story so that they can tell the story in its true essence, they learn how to help you find your voice, instead of playing television. nobody on "60 minutes" place television. everybody on "60 minutes" brings what they bring to the table and they bring what they bring to the table to make the interview the best that it is. >> and i remember mika says that off the air, i always asked her, i always -- i grew one mike wallace and all the -- don hewitt, such a -- i would say what are they like off the air and she has always said, just like they are on the air. and that's what -- that's what made mike wallace work, that he was the same on martha's vineyard as he was in an interview. >> most people on tv never get there. >> but the other point which is in what mika said you it wasn't all about hidden cameras and gotcha questions and things like that don hewitt used to describe "60 minutes" as tell me a story. he wrote an autobiography called "tell me a story." tell his reporters and producers, tell me a story. >> he said that to me when i was tracking and sitting at the microphone trying to perform these lines. he comes into the room, he was in another room, he comes into the private small room, like throw this away. now, tell me the story. what is it? tell it to me. tell it to me, right here to my face and i told it to him and it was great work that came out on the microphone, but -- >> and yet, that's the thing, so many people, mark, in this business, play tv. mike wallace never played tv. and that's what made him what he was. >> well, what he did do was something that is hard to do. you have to be sometimes, to tell the biggest stories of our time, incredible historic interview, you have to be a big person with a bigging ors that can play at that level, that can book the guest and come in and deliver earth interviews and produce them. again, the level at which he played for the duration he did is incredible. >> yeah. yeah. >> and did it always with an eye toward not just entertaining, which he was, but the public interest and that is very rare now. >> you know what else was very rare back in the early 1970s in my household? >> what? >> in meridian, mississippi. >> i didn't know what you were going to say. >> my father watching a news program and not calling the news running the program a communist. like he always said about cronkite after '68, but we listened to walter cronkite and when walter cronkite said "that's the way it is," my dad believed him. the swam "60 minutes," water garkt the darkest days of watergate, when my dad was sure they were going after nixon because of alger hiss and vietnam and all those things, when "60 minutes" came on, dad just watched. >> right. >> and i remember after, one time in '74 he said and he loved nixon to the end, said, you know exif nixon's done half of what they say he's done, the man is unfit for office and should be thrown in jail. you know, it's -- >> that was a particularly good interview by mike wallace with john ehrlichman. he really hammered him. >> he did. >> if your father accepted that, he had gone a long way on the nixon trip. >> the interview in which he listed all the things ehrlichman had done wrong and he stop and then ehrlichman said "is there a question in here somewhere?" coming up next, newark mayor cory booker will be here. and we will preview a new cnbc documentary that goes to the frontlines of the health care fraud. the revival of "a streetcar named desire," blair underwood is here. first, bill karins with the forecast. >> a slow weather week no big dramatic stories taking place, a good time to take a step back and see where we are for this year. we are in the middle of an historic year. done with the warmest march ever and now added up january, february, march, the warmest three months to have start a year around first billion dollar disaster and that was the tore need yo outbreak that hit illinois, indiana and kentucky the beginning of march that is where we are. today, see the chances of severe storms, later this afternoon, develop by amarillo and lubbock, heading across texas and across oklahoma that little area of red is the best chance of seeing some tornadoes, so we will keep an eye in oklahoma city and dallas today. doesn't look like it will be as bad as what we saw last week, of course, also, going to see cooler temperatures in the northern plains and new england is not going to be fun today, rain showers, cloudy, also watching very windy conditions. one area this had a beautiful weekend and beautiful easter continues to be gorgeous today, there is the arch in gorgeous st. louis. you are watching "morning joe." we are brewed by starbucks. managing my diabetes is part of my life, between taking insulin, testing my blood sugar. is this part of your life? 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[ robotic voice ] >> there you go. yeah. >> with us now, we have got the mayor of newark, new jersey, cory booker. core what's going on? what's going on in newark? >> our biggest development period since the 1950s. businesses are coming in. first new hotel necessary 40 years. a lot of good things happening. >> read the headline out of the new jersey star ledger three days ago. >> sure they are talking about the growth of new jersey. >> newark mayor booker says he was denied springsteen ticket he is. >> what? >> after blasting an executive of one of the state's pro sports team he is. that executive in question is jeff van der beek, the chairman of the new jersey devils. the city is involved in a dispute over mr. van der beek over the prudential sent we are the develops play. mr. booker call hamd grade a huckster. you didn't? >> i did. >> a pocketful of lies. >> that is a good line. >> gosh. so here's what you said about mr. van der beek in 2007 when the prudential center first opened. take a listen. >> sit down with jeff van der beek, you feel his spirit, you know his essence and he's a straight shooter and really opened his arms to embrace the city of newark. add done deal, held me do it in the legal sense of the world, mayor, what can i do to make you happy? every day way, he has been a strong partner. i said he has ] a life long friend of mine and more important lakers life long friend of the city of newark. ♪ memories >> seriously, the only thing that is missing is barbra streisand. what happened to you guys, the way we were? so sad. >> the biggest frustration for me. >> not getting the springsteen tickets. >> first of all that is bad. see the show, pretty amazing. 2006, 2007, he made promises, thrilled he was going to give to charities in newark, going to help job training. not only make those promises but required to do so by the contract. he froze all those monies during the toughest years in '08/'09, our economy was falling out, refused to gift charitable dollars required to give by the contract. >> why is that? >> i don't know whether it was callous disregard or indifference, tried year after i don'ter to get him to do the right thing by our city and failed to do t to me, i have a moral problem who in somebody in '06 and '07 made me the happiest guy in the world. >> is he in violation of the contract? >> this is ridiculous, you need release such and such money, the arbitrator said, now said we need to release that money immediately for job training for kids. more importantly, it is a larger moral picture here, how could you come to town with taxpayer money, over $200 million, actually $300 million and not do the simple things you were supposed to do as return on investment? >> just do the right thing. >> do right thing. >> here is the response from the devils they have made in a statement. and it says in part this devils arena entertainment through the families of ray chambers, mike gilfillan and jeff van der beek have invested over $300 million in the team and prudential center, including you $185 million to help build the arena, the largest private investment in downtown newark in the city's history. the mayor has referred to jeff, mike and ray as visionaries, angels and courageous. he has specifically referred to jeff as a life long friend of mine and the city of newark and a mensch and a straight shooter. now that he doesn't like a design in a legal process that his administration started, he turns tail. >> what say you? >> i say that's said. mike and ray are two of the biggest philanthropists in our city. unfortunately, jeff van der beek has failed time and time again to fulfill his promises. in 2006, 2007, made specific prom minuteses to me, 8, 9, 10, 1112, did not fulfill those promises, feel he has looked our city in the face and lied to us. not about a legal case. this is actually about coming into a community that's investing hundreds of millions of dollars and simply being a man of integrity and doing what you said you were gonna do so we have done a public letter to the community basically saying enough is enough, either you start releasing some of the money he owes us or he is going to prove what he really is about. now, on the flip side of that his part naries he does list in that list have been over the top in doing things with the city of newark, above and beyond what they were committed to do so again this becomes about springsteen tickets and a lot of things, not a good thing f this stays on the high road of a massive public investment, what are with he gonna dozen partners going forward that is really the level we should be working at but today it has been incredible. >> mayor booker, i will say first, sorry you missed the show in jersey, i -- >> i saw it in madison care garden, it was phenomenal. >> i grew up in washington, d.c., i lived there full-time. d.c. residents will tell you the reason d.c. is gentrified downtown was because of the verizon center, all done with private funds. new area by capitol hill is being gentrified by nats park, more public/private partnership s there something to be said for devils management that said, look, we took a gamble we put this arena in downtown newark, didn't we do our fair share to sort of strive the gentrification thing, get the ball rolling? >> the gamble that we took and i was against the project when i was mayor-elect and in off, the gamble was $300 million of public money. by the way, the arena -- >> how much private? >> again, they claim $300 million it could be much less, but let's just put it this way, the arena itself is making many collateral benefits for city but winn an investor comes into your city and says i'm going to give money to job training in fact, sign a contract to do that. build a recreation center, i will sign a contract to do that i will do job training and help youth program and i will sign a contract to do that and then does not fulfill those promises, it leaves a community feel investigate betrayed. that is a simple point here. in 2006 and '7, he flipped me from being against the arena project to being for it based on those promises, here and three and four years later, he has not fulfilled them. >> big pimp, you see how hard it is on many tloechls get the deals done, create jobs ultimately, move a city forward. the jobs report came out nationally on friday, 120,000 jobs and i believe it is at 28.2 now. what do you need, what do you need that's not coming from the government and from this white house to try and get the economy moving forward in newark? >> the front page "the new york times" says it today. there's things we need to begin to prepare a workforce for the johns of the 21st century, the reason why i'm mad at jeff van der beek, job training resource. the "new york times" says the federal government is holding back on them. right now, we in newark, new jersey, are seeing a huge investment of private capital from major corporations moving their headquarters from panasonic, man nah she have visit moved to newark, new jersey. but my challenge through the education system, which we were discussing you, as well as through my general workforce is to train my community for 21st century jobs. the old line manufacturing jobs, with avenue good base in newark but many are disappearing. the new jobs from service sector jobs, frankly to tech jobs, those are the jobs i have got to make sure my community is ready for and america cannot shortchange itself. i've talked to people in higher education from the uc system to the rutgers system, we cannot be saying it is time to lose weight and cut back, cut out a pound of flesh and not prepare ourselves to be 21st century. >> ask you who your other life long friends are instead of that let me ask you this chris christie runs for election, more likely to run against him or endorse him? it is too early to talk about that. but i imagine i will be supporting the democrat, whoever that might be. the truth is i have a very strong, productive working relationship with the governor which is what my community wants me to do so to make sure i'm not fighting with somebody, i'm actually part energy with them to make progress in newark, new jersey. the governor stands up and i have stood imwith him in on a lot of controversial issues, only way to move our state and city forward n terms of politics to of the future, the good thing the governor and i agreed to do, take care of itself in an election year, for now, whether we agree or disagree, focus on serving people. >> how does the democratic party feel about you? >> you know what i have got tremendous approval rating in the state. i have seen from the polls that they publish. you know, well over 60% for the party and i'm very grateful for that. but again -- >> popularity. not about celebrity, it is significant. >> it sounds nice. how about the democratic establishment? there are a lot of people inside the new jersey democratic establishment that may not like you. >> you know, i have heard that because frankly -- >> because they have called you up and told you that? >> you know me. i'm not a partisan person. i'm a guy that has to get a job done. i have a community that needs to get back to work or community that needs economic investment, a community that needs great partners, whether they be with sports franchise own earns or other folks. we are going to get moving. newark, i'm telling now, is going to be america's great comeback city because of the things happening. >> all four of us life long sflensd. >> yes, life long friends. >> breadman. >> breadman? breadman? shaquille o'neal, a lot of great newarkers. >> mayor booker, thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. mayor. coming up from the broadway revival of "streetcar named desire," blair underwood and producer aaliyah jones joins us next. i love that my daughter's part fish. but when she got asthma, all i could do was worry ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. the largest class size in the nation. 47th out of 50 in per-student funding. but right now, we can make history with a ballot measure to send every k-through-12 dollar straight to our schools. to every school and every child. not to sacramento. it's the only initiative that can say all that. check out our online calculator and find out how your school would benefit. visit ourchildrenourfuture2012.com today. stella? stella, sweetheart? >> go back. >> eunice, i want my baby down with me. stella! stella! >> wow. 35 past the hour. that was a scene from the broadway revival of tennessee williams' "a streetcar named desire." and joining us now, two-time golden globe award nominee blair underwood, who's stanley along with one of the play's producers, aaliyah jones. good to have you both on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> blair, you -- you were feeling and i know you know this, just some huge shoes, from marlon brando to aiden quinn to john c. reilly. >> alec baldwin. >> talk about that anthony quinn as well. talk about the pressure that's on you. >> you know, there is, of course and thank you for reminding me, joe. >> he is stressed out. he just started sweating. >> the pressure but the one most people point to is the iconic marlon brandon, one of the greatest actors of our time and one of my favorite actor, of course. but you know, what he did was so iconic and genius, that performance, i -- i can't imitate that i don't want to imitate that people who come to see this production don't want to see an imitation of that i found instead of trying to reach for a pedestal, start from screech, el ya kazan, and the producer. >> mike wallace on tv, used his own voice. that is what you are doing here. >> only way i know how to approach it. it has been -- exhausting but great fun so far. we just finished our first week of previews in front of an audience, so far so good. going well. >> now, it stands out this version of "streetcar," a multiracial cast. aaliyah, i would love you to speak to this got permission, the production team did from the williams' family to change the name from co-wkowalski. >> we left off the last name, we refer to blair's character as stanley. it doesn't change any of the meaning of the text. the other one tweak -- >> you don't think blair looks like a kowalski? >> i could be polish. >> i was thinking krackow, perhaps. >> in doing the research for the play, we found we could have actually kept kowalski there were black polish people. >> after world war ii especially that. >> migrated to louisiana. that would be a leap. >> the fact in new orleans, you know that culture, i know you do it is a gumbo of the french and the spanish and african and -- >> amazing. >> cultures, blanche dubois and stella dubois could be the tree fem -- free gam love wealth as my great grandfather in virginia. 200 acres of land. >> hatred, passion. all. >> tennessee williams and new orleans. >> the food. >> classic. the question for both of you broadway seems to go main street. "smash" here on nbc. "glee," has blood way gone mainstream, gone out of new york and this cellular corridor educated culture to all of america? >> that was part of our challenge what happened we thought was a great opportunity in doing multiracial casting of "streetcar" because there are audiences that want to see themselves on stage and its idea we could present a classic like this, a tennessee williams classic to a new audience is a part of what excited us about doing this. you studied theater, carnegie mellon. >> yeah. >> but i have been in film, you've been in television. this is going to be the first time you're on a long-running broadway -- >> it s. >> does it seem natural to you, where you began? >> theater is my first love. i started in theater carnegie mellon. i'm grateful the film and television took off, this network, nbc news, over the years. often time it is, i get a chance, shakespeare in the park or five years i came back to new york state, i tried to get back. >> what does that do for you as an actor? how does that broaden your -- >> with your craft for real? >> absolutely. it keeps you fresh. luke and i were talking earlier, your voice is an instrument, your body is an instrument to take this ride, a three-hour ride every night, and this stanley, who is -- stanley is just a very physical being. >> yep. >> you got to flex those muscles in a way you don't have to in front of this beautiful camera. >> yes. yes. yes. with all the lights. catch tennessee williams' "a streetcar named desire" on broadway starting april 22nd. i would love to. we are going to be there. go to streetcar on broadway.com. blair underwood, aaliyah jones, thank you very much. up next, the fleecing of america. a new cnbc documentary goes inside the world of health care fraud. senior correspondent scott cohn joins us next. i bathed it in miracles. director: [ sighs ] cut! sorry to interrupt. when's the show? well, if we don't find an audience, all we'll ever do is rehearse. maybe you should try every door direct mail. just select the zip codes where you want your message to be seen, print it yourself, or we'll help you find a local partner and you find the customers that matter most. brilliant. clifton, show us overjoyed. no, too much. jennessa. ah! a round of applause. 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"health care hustle" premiers tonight at 9:00 eastern hand pacific time. >> this is so important. thank you for bringing that. >> that is on cnbc and scott cohn. thanks so much. more "morning joe" in just a moment. [ male announcer ] this is lawn ranger -- eden prairie, minnesota. in here, the landscaping business grows with snow. to keep big winter jobs on track, at&t provided a mobile solution that lets everyone from field workers to accounting, initiate, bill, and track work in real time. you can't live under a dome in minnesota, that's why there's guys like me. 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[ male announcer ] aarp is bringing the conversation on medicare and social security out from behind closed doors in washington. because you've earned a say. mitt romney on tuesdaywon the three republican primaries in maryland, wisconsin and washington, d.c., further increasing his delegate lead. so, it looks like republican voters have finally decided that it is better to marry someone you don't love than it is to die alone. romney this week criticized president obama saying he was out of touch after years of flying around on air force one surrounded by adoring staff. romney added the last time i saw someone that out of touch was when my yachting coach wore cuff links to a garden party. >> on tomorrow's shock the chairman of the house budget committee, congressman paul ryan. >> this is big, mika. this is straight out of "caddyshack," out of "ghost busters," dogs and cats living together. >> cross each other in the hall. senior campaign adviser to president obama david axelrod. >> you know why i was thinking of "caddyshack," the masters? >> in the home. >> up next, what if anything did we learn today? i'm meteorologist bill karins with your travel. new england is not pretty today, late today, thunderstorms a problem in the midwest. as far as the forecast for the east coast goes, going to be a windy day today, new york city and d.c., a sprinkle or two out there in areas of new england. also around dallas, oklahoma city, late-day thunderstorms could see isolated tornadoes and strong gusty winds. sometimes, i feel like it's me against my hair. 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[ cellphone rings ] everyone grows with miracle-gro. did your former trainer, brian mcnamny, ever inject you with anything? >> yes, he did. >> what? >> lidocaine and b-12. it's for my joints and b-12, i still take today a lot of trainers -- >> and that's all? >> that's it. >> never, never a human growth hormone? >> never. >> never testosterone? >> never. >> and never anabolic steroid? >> never. >> swear? >> swear. >> hmm. >> wow. >> welcome back to morning joe. luke what did you learn? >> i learned that it's not only your birthday today but also chuck todd's birthday. so -- >> today? >> two msnbc power players. >> i can add one more. alex witt. >> wow. >> that is what i learned today. >> amazing you. >> quite a day. if you want your kid to be on msnbc, have him be born today. >> may want to save a day or two. what did you learn? >> i learned when bob dylan sang "forever young," he was talking about you. >> so sweet. >> you better start taking care of yourself. you're getting old. >> ratner thought i was like older than 49 because he said, forever 49, huh? >> way to project, steve. >> what did you learn? >> since luke took mine and you took mine, alex, i will say that paul ryan and david axelrod on the show tomorrow, should be a good day. >> sharing a danish. >> happy birthday. >> going to be great. old guy. >> i am very, very old. >> cranky. >> so, luke, what are you working on on the hill right now? >> its it is a recess but when we come back, we are going to dive right back into the discussion we have had all along which is more possibly bipartisan jobs act, going do about this transportation bill been continued on for only 16 more days. >> we loved having you here. >> a pleasure. >> thank you so much. >> way too early tomorrow morning and on wednesday. >> don't you love that? >>

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