Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20120406

see you, q, back on monday. "morning joe" starts right now. the president's answer to this question is yes. he believes, his personal opinion, is that women should be admitted. >> of course. i'm not a member of augusta. i don't know that i would qualify. my golf game is not that good. but certainly if i were a member, and if i were -- if i could run augusta, which isn't likely to happen, but of course i'd have women in augusta. welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, april 6. good friday. and good friday morning. with us onset, nbc chief news correspondent and "morning joe's" correspondent in augusta, andrea mitchell. also, political editor and white house correspondent sam stein. a dejected red sox fan who like me now are ready to accept fourth place this year and just call it a day. associate editor of "the washington post" and political analyst gene robinson. in new york, the great willie geist and mike barnicle. mike, and so it begins. you know what, though? >> 161 left. >> 161 left. i still think we can finish in fourth place ahead of the baltimore orioles. that's our goal this year, right? >> stop it. >> it's the little engine that could. we don't have much of a payroll. we don't have a lot of money to spend. but we'll hang in there and play every day, dress up every day and get to it. >> stop it, stop it. >> the love of the game. >> that's it? >> just a bunch of scrappy kids who just love the game. and yesterday, they had fighting spirit. how about washington, though, andrea? the nationals. you guys are going to be good this year. so much better than the sox. >> that's right. >> we've got a little power potential. a little speed. it's going to be a good year. >> you don't care about anything right now other than augusta. >> well, no, first, the place where they really love baseball, i was in havana last week and talked to a lot of ball players, and that's where they love baseball. >> you know where else they love baseball? augusta, georgia. >> augusta? >> you're on a tear this morning about this. >> no, it just seems to me if you're a board member, if you're billy payne, the sponsor, ibm, they have a female ceo, this is the easiest way to slide that woman in there. >> i don't think billy cares. >> you're right. you know, it just seems crazy. and now you've got "the new york times" sportswriter karen krause saying that she feels that she can't cover it from now on. she feels like -- she went to the news conference, wasn't called until the 20th call. the sportswriter for "the new york times". she had the big story on augusta yesterday. >> she just can't do it anymore. you know what she should do? encourage the editor of "the new york times" to go on the war path against augusta, maybe do a two or three or four-week battle with the boys down at augusta national. >> the point is, it took them forever to invite an african-american or, you know, a jewish person. and we don't know how many there are because all of that is secret. and i get the traditions. but the point is, what about women golfers? what about girls looking at this, teenagers, young women? these are role models these players. >> and what is the point? you're inviting more scrutiny and animosity than you could want. >> ibm spends millions of dollars to sponsor this and their shareholders and their board members ought to be saying, what are we spending this money on if our ceo is not invited? >> this just in, i don't think we're getting through to augusta. i'm sorry. >> haven't they played the masters several years because of boycotts? >> no, willie geist, you went down to augusta and you have written a great piece on it. but there was the threatened boycott. in fact, cbs threatened to take -- this comes along every 10 years or so. but, no, sam, when you were 3 years old, cbs actually -- willie geist, tell the story about how cbs said we may not be able to broadcast the masters this year. >> well, cbs went to augusta national and said we've had a long and wonderful relationship, but we're under a lot of heat here. our sponsors are calling on us, so you need to do something about the policy. and hooty johnson, then the head of the club and the membership there, said well, that's fine. we'll just pay for the broadcast ourselves. so they reached into their own pockets and do it. you have to understand about augusta national, they view america as visitors for one week and one week only, and they don't care what you think of them. if you're a member of the working press, the minute that last press conference is over, the gate is locked and you are not welcome back in. if you want to do a live shot monday morning, you cannot. the place is closed. now, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have women. they should. it's ridiculous in this day and age. the most visible golf tournament in the world should have women at that club. but i'm telling you, they simply do not care what the world thinks of them. >> well, yeah. and the think is, too, you grew up in the south. i grew up in the south. they're different. >> i grew up in augusta. >> not that far from augusta. and of course, your experience is far different than my experience. but i can tell you as a very middle class white guy, you know, when we lived in meridian, we were allowed to walk past meridian country club on country club drive looking at the big houses, but we knew, you don't step onto the course. we lived there. it's not just for people that are watching that aren't aware of the way this works. it's not just race driven or gender driven. it's also class driven. and if you're not inside the little club, you can't pay your way into augusta. you've got to be part of a small, small club. >> class is a huge part of it. but there is race. >> race and gender. no doubt about that. >> and, you know, it would be interesting to hear if like anybody brought it up. my membership at augusta has been lost in the mail for some years now. >> for a while now, yeah. >> and may never get through. and i am privy to that. but it would be interesting to know if like did anybody -- you know, members from new york. >> how about the pga which has said -- they have a policy of not having tournaments at courses that discriminate. >> but they have a policy of not killing cash cows. >> mike barnicle, they all said, yeah, they do have a policy as well of, i don't know, making tons and think tos of money the first weekend in april. >> well, you know, you have to be invited to join augusta. it's not a club where you apply. that's one thing. the other thing is, if you go to augusta and play, i have actually played at augusta, not well but once. >> and now you're banned? >> yeah. >> that's why there's a ban. >> i will be in about 10 seconds. you go into the clubhouse, and it's clear that the calendar on the wall is about 1948. that's when time stopped at augusta. but i would also say this, that augusta is the most public example of the way some clubs exclude people. but this goes on at a lot of other clubs throughout the country. clubs run by a handful of people, many of whom the only chance they get to exert power over anything or anyone is to say no to -- they can blackball particular people applying for a golf membership or whatever. this is not unique in the world of golf. >> oh, my god. and it sure as hell is not unique in the deep south. try to get into some new england clubs. wow. >> i'm not saying it's unique to the south. i'm just saying that for augusta, this is a gimme putt. you've got the ceo of the sponsoring corporation, and so you let her in, and then you've done it. you have your one woman, if that's what they want to do. >> go with the one jewish member. >> just saying. >> obviously, we're talking about this because mitt romney and the white house yesterday said that women should be admitted into the club. and speaking of gender, republican national committee chairman is suggesting that his party is not having problems with female voters. take a look at what he had to say. >> the democrats, of course, say you're waging -- the gop is waging a war on women. i know you don't agree. but looking at polls, you have a gender gap problem. recent polls show a huge, huge margin for democrats among women voters. how big of a problem is it, and how do you close it? >> well, for one thing, if the democrats said we have a war on caterpillars and you talked about it then we'd have a problem with caterpillars. the fact of the matter is it's fiction. >> of course, they immediately pounced on his remarks calling them, quote, callous and dismissive of what matters to women and it's completely out of touch. they cited a recent poll that puts the president ahead of romney ahead by 18 points among women in swing states and 34 points among caterpillars. and david axlerod quoted this, from the department of clueless rnc chair he says gop problems with women are contrived by the media. andrea? >> well, i think that the interesting thing about this is that the lead story in "the new york times" today is that the republican national committee has retired its debt. they have raised so much money. and they had a problem under previous leaders. so he has done a really good job on the money front. on this front -- >> but i was going to say, you're being nice. this was a clueless thing to say. >> it was a figure of speech, and people pounced, including myself, about the caterpillars. and he said he wasn't trying to compare people to insects. but his point, the point of critics is -- >> but it was clumsy. >> it was clumsy. >> are you a borat fan? >> oh, yeah, of course. >> where he knocked on the door and he opened up the door and was helping this candidate, and a woman answered the door, and he goes, i want to speak to the man of the house? and he she goes, he's not here. and she goes, i can vote. and he said, no, no, in kazakhstan, you have the man, the dog, the rat, the woman, and then the caterpillar. this reminded me yesterday of borat. >> you have to do your borat impression. >> i can't do it. but of course he didn't compare women to caterpillars, but that was clumsy at best. >> well, the offensive part for people is that he called the war on women fiction. and i think you talk to a lot of female rights advocates and a lot of women who aren't even political and they would say there's a lot of legislation being introduced in a lot of states and by the federal government -- >> 90 states i mean 90 pieces of legislation. >> are you talking about abortion rights? >> some of it is abortion. some of it is health. >> contraception, basic procedures prior to abortion. >> the one thing i don't think we've said here that just needs to be out here, and then, gene, i'll go to you, but some of the most intense conservative pro-life people i have ever met are women in the republican party. most of the people that write me really nasty emails, and i'm sure you all get them and text on social issues, are mainly women. it's not just men in the back rooms of country clubs that are putting these pieces of legislation together. women have really mentioned that for people who haven't been to a republican meeting. >> although it is mostly men in the legislature. >> that's right. trying to get the votes of men and women. >> but you're right, there are a lot of women on that side of the abortion issue who write me the same emails that they write you. but the public face of what's happening, and indeed the actors behind what's happening, are basically male. but i don't think we should give him a pass on the metaphor. he should stay away from metaphors. >> it was clumsy. but i'm with joe. i don't think he was out there saying, women are caterpillar. that's really not what he's saying. he is trying to figure out a way to say this is all made up. >> it's a made-up war at this point. >> to new york. willie, do you and mike consider women to be the equivalent -- rough equivalent of caterpillars? >> no. i think it's very sad. but i don't think he necessarily was comparing women to caterpillars. it was an unfortunate metaphor. what's worse to me is -- >> just made a mistake. >> how incorrect it is. just look at the numbers. we showed this poll all week. president obama is up something like 18 points on mitt romney putting together the 12 swing states among women. the facts are worse to me. the complete denial of a problem that clearly exists for the party. >> you know, joe, i think rans is in the position of a few republicans, and that is he doesn't know what to say about this gender gap that they have. we have spoken about this before in the past few weeks. all you have to do is go grocery shopping, and you find out that a lot of women in this country, some conservative women as well, have been so offended by the whole deal with contraception, much of it from republicans, that you have now candidates like scott brown in massachusetts, he's gone through at least five pairs of new balance sneakers running away from the national party on this issue. >> yeah. >> women feel that people should be talking about economic issues, yet they feel that their basic rights, the rights they had felt were decided decades ago, now are an issue. and that's what's concerning. and it's not just democratic women. >> i was in north carolina not long ago, happened to number a conversation with several, you know, dyed in the wool republican women, who were irate, who were just beside themselves, about what's going on. and were very angry. >> the question is, after rick santorum is out of the race, and i really do believe he's going to decide to get out of the race, i just -- he can't lose pennsylvania. that's the end of the line for him. if he loses pennsylvania. and would just focus on mitt romney, i think they are going to figure out a way to chip away at that. i think very good news for romney, ed gillespie, regardless of what you think about him politically, and a lot of people on the left don't like him, but ed gillespie -- if romney is smart enough to let ed gillespie come in and put in a professional that knows how to run a presidential campaign, if they give ed the power, i think you'll see issues like this start to go away. >> well, i just think the conversation is naturally going to move on to different topics. we have been in about a month and a half and two-month period where something comes up and we are talking about the war on women. that said, if democrats were crafty, and i think some of them are, maybe, but they would use st strategically to try to reintroduce this. >> when you say war on women, are you talking about abortion issues? >> i don't want to use the word one woman because i think it's loaded. but there's been a series of legislation introduced not just about abortion but about contraception. and i think when people talk about the war on women, what they say is also sort of the rhetoric. the foster freeze comments of course, but also -- i don't want to butcher the quote, but lawmakers have locally said you should just close your eyes and deal with it or have it done. >> you're talking about the -- >> in texas, the results of this are that women -- that the least fortunate women are not getting basic screening and health care because the governor and his legislators turned back the laws. >> now he wants to defund. and that's a big thing. >> and another thing too. i understand that among a lot of democrats planned parenthood is just a sainted organization. but there are a lot of people out there that are scratching their head going, wait a second, now. you're going after the top researcher and funder of breast cancer on the planet just because they don't want to be associated with an organization that makes millions and millions of dollars giving abortions to americans every year. i mean, i understand that among progressive women and a lot of independent women that's a clear cut case. i can tell you planned parenthood in my neighborhood is not seen as a noble organization. >> in texas and arizona, joe, it really is. i'm not talking about the abortion services. i'm talking about the basic screening and health care. >> basic health care. >> they're the provider. >> my only point is, and it's what i said earlier, people covering this story need to be very careful to understand there are a lot of women who are pro-life, a lot of people who do not see planned parenthood as a positive force in america. and as we look at this, you know, not you, but people use these terms, war on women, yes, war on progressive women, war on independent women, but there are also independent women and conservative women who see a lot of these things. i'm not talking about the extreme -- i'm not talking about the extreme probes that i myself was attacking earlier. i'm just saying, abortion is a split issue. it's about 50/50 now for a lot of reasons. we need to be careful reporting this. >> but not every abortion opponent sees planned parenthood as the central evil of american society. that organization. planned parenthood does a lot more. abortion is a very small part of what it does. and in fact, at least in my anecdotal experience of talking to people, that includes a lot of republican women too, who don't see it that way. >> let me just say quickly i think a lot of women look at this debate over the debt, for instance, and they see politicians say, we need to make tough choices. and the first thing is defund planned parenthood. and they say, why? that's going to be a minor, you know, savings. you'll save a minor amount of money and you're just burdening lower income women who really have trouble getting access to health services. so that seems unfair to them to put the burden on their backs. >> well, i think, again, a war on planned parenthood is not seen by a lot of women in america as a war on women. and there are a lot of women who rolled their eyes during the big controversy over planned parenthood and the rights for -- i forget, susan -- >> susan g. komen. >> and look at that and go, really? really? you're going to start a war against them because they don't want to be associated with the largest abortion provider in america? i mean, again, it's just -- this is not a black and white issue for women in america. and a war against planned parenthood is not a war against women for -- i don't know the numbers but for a lot of american women. >> i think what resonated are the contraception debates that have now erupted in all of these states, and the fact that texas is not -- >> you heard john mccain talking very forcefully against a bill in arizona that was republican originated, and said that the mayor should veto it. >> and she did veto it. we have to go to break. coming up, we've got national security adviser dr. brzezinski here. we will not be talking to him about the war on women. also, former white house adviser melody barnes. bob woodward will be here. david gregory. plus, willie's week in review. >> but first, bill karins with a check on the weather. looks like a fabulous easter weekend. let's get into it. yesterday, we were concerned with thunderstorms in the southeast, severe weather. we had a couple of tornadoes around the budda, missouri, and western tennessee. no damage. that was fantastic. right now we have rain exiting the carolinas. augusta looks dry today. the golf should be just fine. very chilly, though, from the great lakes up through new england. it's a cold start to the day. but that april sun is going to be fantastic this afternoon. we should see temperatures in the 50s from new england all the way down near 60 in d.c. and we should see beautiful weather in the middle of the country too. maybe a shower or storm in miami. the worst weather this weekend unfortunately should be areas of west and south texas. that's where we'll see some scattered thunderstorms. it's not going to rain out your weekend, but it will be damp. and easter sunday, what a beautiful day for everywhere just about east of the rockies. we are going to watch light rain in the northwest. that's where some of the easter egg hunts may be rained out, but that's really about it. overall, not quite an a plus but it's close. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? 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(growl) we invite you to get a free sample and try one on too. welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot of the white house. let's take a look at the morning papers. "the new york times," it's been described as one of the most direct speeches pope benedict has ever made. yesterday, he re-emphasized the roman catholic church's ban on women becoming priests and warned he would not tolerate disobedience on fundamental teachings. his comments came after a group of austrian priests recently challenged the vatican to abolish priest celibacy and open up the clergy to women. hey, willie -- >> yes, sir. >> who is sitting around the dinner table yapping while we're saying the friday prayer? >> not mike allen's fault. his mic was open, not his fault. we're just chatting. from the national journal online, for two years now, senator scott brown has been challenging president obama to a game of one-on-one on the basketball court. the latest request came wednesday when senator brown who played college hoops at tufts university, there he is, attended obama's signing of the insider trading bill. no word if the challenge will ever be accepted. and from my backyard, "the birmingham news," the state house of representatives has approved a bill that would directly tie legislators' pay to the median household income of alabama residents. i love that. that number, according to the 2010 census, is around $40,000. if approved by the senate, it would go on the november ballot for a statewide vote. >> did you hear about this one, joe? sunday's "parade" magazine, you and mika have a column about celebrating easter in your own families. >> that's the rabbit she ate. >> just broke that news to joe that he wrote the column for "parade" magazine. i kid, i kid, i kid. >> no, that's wonderful. did i really? you kid because you love. of course. >> with us now, you have already heard from him once, now let's go back to him, mike allen, the political correspondent for "politico" with a look at the playbook. >> mike allen writes my politico column, by the way. i'm a factory. >> mike, good morning. >> happy friday. >> there it is. good friday, no less. all right. let's start with your sneak peek. i don't know how you get your hands on these, but you always do, at george will's sunday column about a possible running mate for mitt romney. >> i have been pushing this idea, and this is going to make a big splash this weekend. he is pushing as his number one choice for vp george wills says that mitt romney should run with paul ryan. and people would say that is impossible. but you talk to folks around romney, and there's a very strong case for it. catholic, rust belt, young, could give some excitement to the ticket, conservatives would like it, which they really need. and george will points out no one knows the romney-ryan plan as the obamas have branded it better than paul ryan. so it's risky in that you're not going to be making an obvious pitch to the middle. but you are injecting a little bit of that reagan aura excitement. politico's maggie haverman with the more obvious top pick, senator rob portman of ohio. a governing pick. ohio is not optional for republicans. and number two, that surprised me, but i have warmed to the idea, her number two, tim pawlenty. comfortable with romney. that's also a big factor for paul ryan. >> hey, joe, we talked about this yesterday on the show, the possibility of paul ryan being the running mate. it seems to me the white house would be drooling over this choice because they are trying to lump romney and ryan together in terms of this budget. and now they could have them there standing next to each other every day. >> lots of luck. i know the left right now, the liberals in america right now are trying to compare this guy, paul ryan, to newt gingrich. we're going to tie bob dole around newt gingrich. tie paul ryan around mitt romney. it's not going to work. paul ryan is a guy -- he is very conservative. but this is a guy who wins every two years in one of the great swing districts in america, a swing district that went for bill clinton if i'm not mistaken twice. went for al gore. went for barack obama. and it's not like he's been in this district since the 1950s. he got elected in 1998. again, it's a very swing district. he say very likeable guy. i don't know that he's ready to be vice president. the political side of it, the campaign trail, he may need to smooth the rough edges out as far as giving out speeches. but i love the guy, willie. and i love his politics. and i would be very excited about it. but if i'm mitt romney, i'm look at rob portman, smooth as silk. he's already been in the white house. and he brings me ohio. that is hard to pass up. but you talk about pawlenty too. he brings, i think, minnesota. i think he's got a couple of really good choices there. >> and arguing for portman and pawlenty, after sarah palin, he's not going to take a chance. like they have learned that. there's not going to be a long ball here. >> what happened with sarah palin? [ laughter ] >> i think there might be a movie about it. coming to dvd. >> willie, one other thing, though, about if you're romney's people, you look at tim pawlenty. and you look back -- tim had some rough stops and starts. i think he would be a good vice president. but we saw on our show early on, he didn't exactly look like he was ready for primetime. he's learned a lot. i think he'll run again. i think he'll be very good. but if you want somebody that you know you can put beside mitt romney and he's not going to make a gaff and he's not going to make a mistake and he's going to bring you a state, maybe pawlenty does that. maybe paul ryan does that. and i would love to be associated with those two guys. i'm just saying, if you're looking at mitt romney, a guy who is historically risk averse, who doesn't take chances, who is not john mccain, and you're trying to predict what he's going to do, he's going to go for the safe bet, the safe stock. he's going to go for the blue chip stock. and that is rob portman. not exciting. but that's -- he's not looking for excitement. he's looking for a state and a solid running mate. >> and they did get a little test drive of campaigning with paul ryan in the state of wisconsin for the last couple of weeks. >> and everybody says that they bonded very well. rob portman also is comfortable when he was out with him during the ohio primary. another argument for pawlenty, he helps with evangelical christians, which romney is going to need. not so sure about george will's number two, bobby jindal, the louisiana governor. i would put your money on -- >> that ain't happening. mike, your ebook, flying off the virtual shelves. it's huge. >> "inside the circus," one of the best-selling ebooks of all time. >> of all time? >> and people like the idea of going behind the scenes while it's still going on. >> in real time. "inside the circus." how do we get it these days? >> nook, itunes, ipod, ipad, kindle. >> it's everywhere. happy good friday. we apologize that our audio engineer took good friday off and leaving all the mics open today. coming up, tiger woods stumbles in the first round at the masters but not as badly as the guy who had the lead before his complete meltdown on 18. this is ugly. the latest from augusta. and baseball highlights from opening day next on "morning joe." 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[ beeping ] ...to bring all the right results. it's the at&t network -- doing more with data to help business do more for customers. ♪ here's a chance to create jobs in america. oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy to the united states. over the coming years, projects like these could create more than half a million jobs in the us alone. from the canadian border, through the mid west, to the gulf coast. benefiting hundreds of thousands of families throughout the country. this is just what our economy needs right now. welcome back to "morning joe." we talked a little bit at the masters at the top of the show. let's show you what happened on the course yesterday. the first round at the augusta national golf club, tiger woods the center of attention as he usually is as he began his chase for a fifth green jacket just a couple of weeks after getting his first win on tour in more than two years. sinking this putt for birdie on the par 4, 3rd. down the stretch, bogeyed 17. then here on 18, didn't get much better from there. bad tee shot. then out of the pine straw, it rolls into the crowd. that's his third shot. he'd have to tap in for bogey. tiger finished even par, tied for 29th place after the first round. not alone in the struggles. phil mickelson had a terrible day. on 10, slices it off the fairway. going to need a little help finding that ball. mickelson takes a double bogey and finishes at two over for the day. then lee westwood, your day one leader. putt for birdie on 17. had seven birdies. nice round, finished at five under par. the most interesting round of the day, though, to this man. henrik svenson. he led the field at five under when he arrived at the tee on 18, and then completely unravelled. frustrated with his third shot, then trying to chip up. that didn't go so well. he finally tapped in for a snowman, a quadruple bogey 8, finished at one under. remember he entered the hole one under, finished at five over. to baseball, 13 teams opening their seasons yesterday. among them the tigers and the red sox. sox down to their final out. ryan sweeney triples off tigers' closer jose valverde. that ties the game at 2-2. boston has new life in the ninth. home half, bases loaded for austin jackson. he puts one through the left side. walk-off single on opening day. detroit wins 3-2. and from the sellout crowd at comerica. >> terrific game. >> sox are going to be ok. don't worry. johan santana, first start for the mets in 19 months and looking like the johan of old. good yesterday. top of the fourth, gets mccann swinging for out number two, and closes the inning striking out uggla. mets won 1-0 behind five shutout innings from santana. and the new york papers perhaps with a little tongue in cheek are giddy. the front page of "the new york post," mets undefeated with 161 games to go. and the back page of t"the new york daily news", look who's in first? the new york mets in first place. >> huge if santana comes back for them. >> he looked great yesterday. next, mika's must read opinion pages back down in washington. we'll be right back. didn't really pay too much attention to honestly. i came to yountville really because of the french laundry. this is the place i had been looking for all my career. so i decided to plant a bay laurel seedling to commemorate that. as a chef we are always committed to our suppliers... you know those farmers, those foragers, those gardeners, those fishermen... for me it's really about building this extraordinary community. american express is passionate about the same thing. they're one of those partners that i would really rely on to help branch out my business. whether it's finding new customers... or a new location for my next restaurant. once you have strong support around you, then you can do anything. now this town has become a bit of a food metropolis. and that little bay laurel, it provides bay leaves for every one of my restaurants. the customers, tools, and insights to help grow your business. that's the membership effect of american express. this one's for all us grass gurus. doers. here's to more saturdays in the sun. and budgets better spent. here's to turning rookies - into experts, and shoppers into savers. here's to picking up. trading up. mixing it up. to well-earned muddy boots. and a lot more - spring per dollar. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. wipe out weeds for less, with bayer advanced durazone weed and grass killer, now just $19.88. 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[ male announcer ] animate and share your first car story at firstcarstory.com. courtesy of the 2012 subaru impreza. experience love that lasts. ♪ we have a president who i think is a nice guy, but he spent too much time at harvard perhaps, or maybe just not enough time actually working in the real world. i think to create jobs in the private sector it helps to have had a job in the private sector. >> welcome back to "morning joe." joining us, straight from harvard yard, mika brzezinski. >> that's just silly. it's just so not the case, as you know. as you told the story yourself. >> i know. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 44 past the hour. >> we need to count here really. harvard. so, gene, help me out here. mitt romney is attacking barack obama for being at harvard too long. i'm not too good at math, ok? i went to the university of alabama. roll tide. >> only count to one. >> only have to count to number one. >> that's right. >> help me out here, gene. who was at harvard longer, mitt romney or barack obama? >> you know, the answer to that question would be mitt romney. >> really? >> because mitt romney was at harvard for four years, and barack obama was there for three years. >> when was that a bad thing? >> why does he do things like that? >> i don't know. i don't know. >> just relax. >> i have been asking the question. joining us now, senior national correspondent for bloomberg business week, josh green. it's really good to have you on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> you have a column at businessweek.com. can i read part of it? >> yeah, read it. >> ok. here's what you say. the willingness to confront hard choices has vanished. the republican budget restores most of the defense cuts and imposes even greater demands on the entitlement programs. it includes no tax increases, and without any acknowledgment of their role in bringing them about, republicans have begun furiously criticizing ryan. the problem with all of this should be obvious, but it hasn't gotten much attention. so you're doing the math on a number of levels and saying it doesn't add up. >> well, all the attention on paul ryan's budget, which the president came out and attacked pretty brutally the other day, has been on the idea that it cuts and it cuts and it cuts all in the name of deficit savings. but one of the things that hasn't gotten attention is it also uncuts what both parties agreed to last fall during the debt ceiling fight, which is about $600 billion in military cuts. it was a little tricky back then. but probably the only good news to emerge from that whole fight was that the parties did dprae to $2 trillion in deficit savings. about half of what bowls simpson was supposed to achieve. and what we see is that ryan and republicans are trying to take back these cuts. yeah, we agreed to it, but not really. we want to have it back. >> you go back over the past decade, none of the cuts are ever real, on either side. the cuts are never real. they always -- the only thing they will pass is like for instance what they did two years ago. extension of the bush tax cuts. extension of unemployment benefits. more spending. more spending. more spending. >> this is what drives people nuts about washington. because on the one hand, republicans are out there screaming we need to cut the deficit. on the other hand, they are trying to undo the cuts they already made. so it helps to explain why, you know, we can never really make a step forward. you make one step forward, you take another step back. >> joe's point is well taken, though. because what we're always talking about is increments in speeding up or slowing down of the rate of increase, right? that's a cut essentially. >> and only 12% of the budget. we are only looking -- both sides are really only looking at 12% of the budget, which is the discretionary domestic spending, because they don't really want to touch entitlements. paul ryan has now backed off of that. they don't want to touch medicare, medicaid. they don't want to touch defense spending. and the president talks about raising taxes. but lots of luck getting the votes from democrats to raise taxes. no tough choices. >> in this agreement, they have finally agreed on a proportion of domestic spending and defense. and now they are trying to take back the defense cuts. >> and republicans voted for this. this wasn't foisted on them like the health care law. the republicans cast their votes in favor of these cuts and are now turning around and saying we want to undo them. >> so the paul ryan plan, how does cbo score that out? i actually went through and read. i haven't found a number yet on what paul ryan's plan does to the deficit compared to what barack obama's plan does. from best i could gather, it's about the same thing as far as deficit reduction goes. >> well, it's where these cuts come from. and what you see happening in the ryan budget is trying to sort of undo this deal that was struck, where, you know, half of what was cut was from programs. democrats favor half from republicans. now he wants to shift it all over kind of into the democratic column, cut benefits. >> so what will happen? >> something will happen in september because the cuts are set to kick in on january 1. so something has to happen before then. or -- >> they undo the law. >> they undo the law. >> and the bush tax cuts also are coming up again. >> again. >> taxma getgeddon. >> josh, great to see you again. >> we'll be right back with willie's week in review. yeah, i guess it is pretty quick. jesse?!? jesse? jesse?! much obliged. suddenly, everything else seems old-fashioned. ultrabook. inspired by intel. oh, lord, please tell me it's time. >> mike, don't make that noise, please. >> for the love of -- >> it is time, mika. it's time for a very special edition of "news you can't use". of course, it's friday, so it's the week in review. ♪ i'm only a paper boy >> at number three, the oracle sings again. ♪ the money you pay for this ♪ it all belongs to me >> a nebraska billionaire who as you may have heard pays taxes at a low are rate than his secretary was back to the mic this week, this time repping hard for newsboys at the omaha press club musical. ♪ i got a furniture mart ♪ and a jewelry store >> yes, warren buffett long ago reached the net worth at which one can do whatever one damn well pleases without any concern at all for looking, well, like a guy playinging a ukelele in front of his giant train set. ♪ i've been working on the railroad ♪ >> and at number two, car trouble. >> hey, guys, it's throwing 18-wheelers. >> a rough week to be a tractor-trailer. these two became famous around the world after they were sucked up into a texas tornado. >> there's lots of 18-wheelers. this is something i have never seen before. >> this disabled one in norway dragged a tow truck off a snowy mountain road and over a cliff. everybody was ok. and this smaller truck drove right into a connecticut convenience store, narrowly missed a customer, and then calmly backed out as if nothing had happened. and the number one story of the week -- >> it is a trojan horse. it is thinly veiled social darwinism. it makes the contract with america look like the new deal. >> president obama hinted this week that he does not approve of the republican budget proposal, mocking mitt romney's word choice in support of the plan. >> he even called it marvelous, which is a word you don't often hear when it comes to describing the budget. it's a word you don't hear even generally. >> even "mad men" got in a cheap shot at romney. >> he's not going to michigan because romney is a clown. >> the head of the rnc compared its problem with women voters to an invented problem with mythical caterpillars. >> if the democrats said we had a problem with war on caterpillars, and the mainstream media talked about it, then we'd have a problem with caterpillars. >> rick santorum promised to fight on in a fantasy he had where he is george washington, and the rest of the field are german mercenaries. >> and that's why he crossed the delaware, surprised the hessians, and turned the tide of the revolution. >> in this combative week of national politics, it was ann romney who leapt to her husband's defense, threatening to unleash the beast. >> do you have to fight back some -- like my husband isn't stiff, ok? >> well, you know, i guess we'd better unzip him and let the real mitt romney out. well, you know, i guess we'd better unzip him and let the real mitt romney out. >> let the real mitt romney out. we'll see if that happens. >> ok. >> also anytime you get a hessians reference in the program, you've got to do it. when we come back, bob woodward joins the conversation back down in washington. keep it on "morning joe." we'll be right back. all right, let's decide what to do about medicare and social security... security. that's what matters to me... me? i've been paying in all these years... years washington's been talking at us, but they never really listen... listen...it's not just some line item on a budget; it's what i'll have to live on... i live on branson street, and i have something to say... [ male announcer ] aarp is bringing the conversation on medicare and social security out from behind closed doors in washington. because you've earned a say. not in this economy. we also have zero free time, and my dad moving in. so we went to fidelity. we looked at our family's goals and some ways to help us get there. they helped me fix my economy, the one in my house. now they're managing my investments for me. and with fidelity, getting back on track was easier than i thought. call or come in today to take control of your personal economy. get one-on-one help from america's retirement leader. i'm al ways like splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweeteners. this bowl of strawberries is loaded with vitamin c. and now, b vitamins to boot. coffee doesn't have fiber. unless you want it to. splenda® essentials™ are the first and only line of sweeteners with a small boost of fiber, or antioxidants, or b vitamins in every packet. mmm. same great taste with an added "way to go, me" feeling. splenda® essentials™. get more out of what you put in. the democrats say the gop is waging a war on women. i know you don't agree with that. but looking at the polls, you have a gender gap problem. recent polls show a huge, huge margin for democrats among women voters. how big a problem is it, and how do you close it? >> well, for one thing, you know, if the democrats said we had a war on caterpillars, and every mainstream media outlet talked about the fact that the republicans have a war on caterpill caterpillars, then we'd have a problem with caterpillars. the fact of the matter is it's a fiction. >> ok. welcome back to "morning joe." live from washington. andrea mitchell is still with us. and joining the table, we have pulitzer prize winner associate editor of "the washington post" bob woodward, and nbc news chief white house correspondent and host of "the daily rundown" chuck todd. >> it is good friday. but another big holiday today. another big event. andrea mitchell, allan green span celebrating their 15th wedding anniversary. >> you blew my cover. >> i'm sorry. >> that's at least now he'll remember. >> congratulations. exactly. >> maybe, right? >> well, mika learned about her father's 85th birthday by mike allen. >> do you know whose anniversary is also is? john and annie glenn. they have a few years on us. >> all right. we just heard rnc chair reince priebus rejecting the fact that there's a problem with women for the gop. the democrats pounced saying it's out of touch. they said in a recent poll that puts the president ahead of romney by 18 points, and david axlerod tweeted this. from the department of clues, rnc chair says gop problems with women are contrived by media. he is treating about it. >> tweeting and also, chuck todd, the caterpillar comparison. >> it was awkward. just a weird analogy. >> don't do it. >> i understand what he was trying to say. basically, guess what, if somebody just said, and people just keep saying it over and over again, he was calling it propaganda. the fact is when you talk to folks inside the romney campaign, they believe their problems with women aren't romney's problems with women. that they have inherited the republican party's problems with women. and that is the bigger issue. >> do you know why they have inherited it, the way he has spoken out -- >> well, no, has not spoken out. >> well, exactly. the things he hasn't said. >> he wouldn't get involved in this. >> the 18-point gender gap, that's deadly. if romney can get the other guys out of the race, romney is going to have to focus on this in a big, big way. >> and there has to be some message that's not just this random talk where he was saying that obama spent too much time at harvard. >> when he spent more time at harvard than obama. >> when he was more time at harvard, and he was governor of massachusetts, which in part is governor of harvard. you have to center in on things. i think it's not at the moment, but this change -- i know you think it's kind of over. i think these things are never over. but i think one of the big stories today is in "the washington post" about romney's nondisclosure of what he really owns, where he gets this $20 million a year from, bain capital. and it's all hidden. and if you look at kind of 40 years of history since nixon, it's let's have some transparency. let's get this out. we need to know who our presidents are. romney, you know, he really is this guy who made all this money. through bain capital. so let's see. it would be as if somebody wrote books, ran for president, and we couldn't see his books. you've got to know. you've got to be all in when you are running for president. so he's got to find some way to disentangle himself from this. >> didn't he release his tax returns and bring some transparency there? >> well, you know, but what this story does is it says, well, there's this disclosure statement, there are these tax returns, and it doesn't all add up. >> it doesn't get really specific about where the money is moved. there has always been the belief that romney is sheltering his money offshore. >> they tried to address that in the tax return. >> they did try to address that, but there's still some more concerns. and i have heard republicans say that we're running against him. just wait until romney has to show where all of his money is hidden. >> but his argument is, 48 bain accounts, and he signed confidentiality agreements so he can't tell the public or answer questions about what this money is really invested in. >> you don't buy that? >> well, it's a blind -- you can't run for president blind. you've got to be open. remember when bob dole ran against clinton in '96? dole said i've got to do everything to try to win the presidency. he resigned the senate. resigned as majority leader. these investments are complicated. i don't know how he gets out of them because of the tax implications. but it's a big deal. >> the irony is when mitt romney was running for the u.s. senate, he was trying to get -- because the kennedy family used to never really release the details of their family fortune. and remember one of the releases -- i'll release all of these tax returns if you disclose more of what you do. and kennedy didn't and romney didn't. >> so we're also talking about, obviously, the ryan budget, and mitt romney and ryan are going on. bob, you just commented about how nothing ever gets cut in washington, d.c. it never does. and here is another case. you have republicans that are saying, we're not going to really touch entitlements now. we're going to let it grow at the same rate the president does. we're not touching medicare. we're not touching social security. but we're going after 12% of the budget. and then you have the president claiming that his base, we don't have to cut entitlements. all we have to do is tax rich people. neither side adds up. both sides see the deficit and the debt explode over the next decade. it's just a miserable state of affairs here. >> it's not even a kabuki dance because the curtains are closed, and you don't know what -- where their promise is, but it doesn't happen. and of course they'll come up with these 10-year plans, and then each year they'll say, oh, no, not this year. we'll start in the next year. >> yeah. let's look at pennsylvania. mitt romney told a harrisburg crowd that he expects to win in pennsylvania in the general election, even as he lowered expectations for the primary to put a little more heat on rick santorum. take a listen. >> i think everybody expects someone to win your home state. newt gingrich won his state. i won my home state. and think people expect the senator to win his own state. but i hope to pick up a lot of delegates, and we have several other states holding their primaries on the same day. i'd like to win all of those, and if i could win others and pick up some delegates there, it would be great. i believe i will win pennsylvania in the fall and winning pennsylvania will give me the delegates i need. >> a new poll shows rick santorum the likely winner in pennsylvania. >> and another poll has romney ahead. so it's kind of close. what are you hearing about santorum getting in, staying out? >> well, he had this meeting with conservatives. it was a pep talk. and they've got this -- to call it a bank shot would say it's a makeable shot. they've got this idea that somehow these things are going to happen. somehow they drive gingrich out. that gingrich agrees to endorse santorum and tell all of his delegates to support santorum. that's part one of this plan. part two has texas changing its rules to become fully winner take all, because santorum would likely win there. but in order for that to happen, the rnc would have to agree to a special waiver to allow texas to change its rules. do you think the rnc, which now more and more is basically behind the republican nominee to be at this point, they are not going to be giving waivers to texas to somehow change -- >> and ed gillespie is moving over to the republican establishment. >> they are not going to let that happen, one. and texas doesn't deserve the right to have a waiver. hey, we want a waiver because we want to stop the potential nominee. >> romney has been saying a lot of stupid political things on the campaign trail. do you think ed gillespie coming in is going to finally bring some order to that message that the romney camp puts out? >> if he listens to him, i think ed gillespie has the experience, he has the track record, he's been in the white house. he's been outside. he knows how to run a campaign. and i think that i need some outside brain power. >> but, again, you listen to romney, and the sound isn't even good. they haven't found a way to communicate and to say, this is what we want to say. there's just -- it's chatter often. and -- >> it's an undisciplined message. he says a lot of things off the cuff that get him in trouble. bob, why would such a disciplined man have such a string of self-inflicted wounds? it's pretty fascinating. >> you have learned this from cammalleri pai campaigns, and you know this, the candidate cannot be the campaign manager. you have to have a campaign manager who looks the candidate in the eye and say this is what whether or not you are going to do, this is how we're going to do it, and you have to have that relationship of trust to turn it over. now, you're smiling because maybe you didn't do it that way. >> i'm not good listening. i don't know. >> but you've got to have -- >> yeah, you do. well, listen, it's one thing if you're running for congress. if you're running for president of the united states, it has to be. you've got a team that tells you what to do. they hand you the script. you go out and deliver it because as you know, so much is coming at you nonstop. and this is a great point. i get a sense that mitt romney doesn't have that person yet. maybe it's ed gillespie, let's hope, that person that will tell him, this is what you're going to do. >> and it goes back to presidents many decades ago. you need a daily message. and you need to say it about three or four times, particularly in a campaign. because there's a lot of clutter out there. and if you don't have a daily message, you have to get up in the morning and say, this is what i want to say today. this is what i want to communicate. >> and we've been comparing mitt romney partialitiwise to george hw bush, in '88, a man who was clumsy on the campaign trail but everybody that knew him thought he was a good, decent man. but, andrea, this version of george hw bush sure could use a version of jim baker. because you talk about the message, that 1988 campaign, i have never seen anything like it. message, discipline, it's unbelievable. >> it's the jim baker who understood each day there was the message and it was repeated over and over again. i think ann romney is the secret ingredient. if ann romney could be at his side every day, all day. >> it may not happen. >> but you don't want spouses running a campaign either. >> oh, no. >> hold on a second, though. and i'm not just talking women. i'm talking if you're -- >> spouses. >> margaret thatcher didn't have dennis running her campaign, because it's all too personal. that's the last person you want day in and day out. >> bill took it too personally. that was actually an issue. the romney people, the people that -- >> and they should take it personally. it's not a criticism of spouses. >> i want to finish this thought. but it's the romney people feel like, hey, wait a minute. look at what we've done. this party is southern, evangelical, and conservative. and we're about to win a nomination with a moderate northeastern mormon. >> yeah, give him some props. >> pretty good. >> that's what they are saying. if i had told you that's what i'm going to try to do -- >> but also, they have been running against the bad news bears. they are not running against aa. they are running against single a, about to be pushed back into the donut league. >> what do they call it now, the rookie league? >> the rookie league, yeah. >> i'm with you. >> mitt romney may not have the person, but it looks like he might have the money. "the new york times" is reporting a big turn around. this just in the past couple of weeks. the republican national committee raising more than $110 million over the past 15 months. the republican committee also reported more than $30 million cash on hand, including $22 million being held in a presidential trust. these new fundraising figures come just days after romney announced he will start raising money with the rnc in an attempt to rally the party behind his candidacy. and in the realm of super pacs, despite the president's backing, the super pac has failed to make any inroads. they trail by $37 million. >> there will be so much monnethis coming from all sides. >> from all sides. >> it's staggering. >> the real contest obviously will be between obama and the republican nominee, but there will be that other contest of the super pac war. but in a way, those of us in the news business are going to have to look at those ads because it's going to be a lot of poison, a lot of garbage in them, and sort it out and say this is true, this is untrue. but if you look at the reforms that supposedly have been put in place in the last four decades since nixon, where we are now, it's worse. it is -- nixon had a $750,000 cash slush fund. and at that time, that was thought, wow, that is really something. >> it's legalized bags of cash. it is legal. the old bags of cash metaphor. >> the republican national committee's success is reince priebus and this now organization he has fashioned. so for all the mixed metaphors, he is raising some big dough. >> on the presidential level, the republicans i bet will outspend obama and the democrats. >> do you really think so? >> umtly, when you factor in the super pacs -- >> i agree. >> obama may outspend romney. but when you factor in the super pac monnee -- remember, this happened in '04. bush was outspent by the outside groups. i won't be surprised if outside groups plus romney outspend outside groups plus obama. >> plus, wall street has turned against barack obama. >> in the power of negative advertising, it is a multiple of a positive ad. and people are, you know, if this goes on like it looks like it's going to, people are going to go into the polls in november and are going to have to go i'm holding my nose and picking one of them because there's going to be so much negative information, so much negative spin, that it's going to be very difficult to sort out. >> mike barnicle, bob woodward was talking about what happened in the 1972 campaign, and the huge scandal, i mean, movies were made, careers were made, over a $750,000 slush fund. that is an afterthought these days for one of these billionaires writing super pac checks. if adeleson gave gingrich $750,000, he would be insulted. that would be a slap in the face. >> yeah, 1972. and all of that. those were certainly earlier, easier times. and the money in politics today compared to just 10 years ago is astronomical. and the super pacs additional money they pour in, it verges on the obscene. but getting back to something that bob was just talking about, and you were just talking about, joe, the -- maybe when we look back at this campaign, depending on what happens in the campaign going forward, one of the most important ingredients in this campaign is the addition of ed gillespie to the romney campaign because what the romney campaign has lacked forever is focus. and ed gillespie, if as bob points out and i think he's correct, it's going to be just a slime fest going forward with the tv ads. ed gillespie presents a focus that romney has to adopt in order to get that message out each and every day. the same message, focus, focus, focus, something he has not had. gillespie could be critical. >> no doubt about it. and i know a lot of people on the romney campaign watch the show. and that's why they hate me so much. but -- >> my brother wanted to send you a message. oh, i can't say it on the air. never mind. >> basically, he told me to shut up about romney. but anyway, if anybody is watching, listen to ed gillespie. he is disciplined. the thing they need now, mika, more than everything, is a message and a discipline that they have sorely lacked over the past three, four months. they need things, broad things. they should start on election day. this is campaigns 101. but they should start on election day where they want to end up with their message and work back. and they haven't controlled the message for months. >> he also in fairness has had terrible opponents. that's part of it. oh, come on. >> well, maybe so. >> ridiculous ones. >> but, you know, the first thing they need to do is they -- and ed knows this, they've got to work on that gender gap. >> yeah. in a huge way. >> because the president is going after that. and he's going to try to drive a wedge between republicans and women between now and election day. >> he made it very clear getting into the white house, he made a huge effort on behalf of women. and today, president obama will be hosting a forum on women and the economy. i'll be moderating a panel, which including some key figures on the issue. the director of the national economic council, jean sperling. administrator of the u.s. small business administration, karen mills. the ceo of deloitte, the world's largest professional services organization. president obama later will address leaders in business and academia. and the white house council on women and girls is releasing a full report on where women stand in today's economy. and some facts for you, more than $3 billion were granted to women-owned small businesses through recovery loans. and an estimated 4.9 women were kept out of poverty in 2010 because of expansions and refundable tax credits. in higher education, april 2.3 million women received pell grants since president obama took office. and when it comes to retirement, most of the $13.6 billion that were given to seniors and veterans through the recovery act went to women. also worth mentioning at the forum today, deloitte will be announcing it's committing $60 million additional dollars to nonprofits helping women and girls such as girl scouts and things. >> so as you can tell, they see a hole, and they are driving a big, a huge truck through that hole. >> it's not a wenl. it's a truck. >> it's a mack truck. >> and they are going to focus on this. >> they are. and it's every day. again, when you look at these polling -- >> it's great politics. >> it isn't an issue -- and i go back to, you know, romney is inheriting the republican party problem with women. and when you look at romney's negatives, and you have seen the polling numbers, and you look at senate races, republicans are hurting all up and down the ballot, and this gender gap is upon is popping up everywhere. so the question is, does romney distance himself from the republican party to fix this gender gap, or is it the entire republican party has to fix the gender gap? i would argue it's the later. but the question is how. some idiot state legislatures and everything are jumping on this. >> it's hurting republicans up and down the ticket. >> but it still is not over. take the issue of women. and the polling is right. and the attitude is right. but there are a lot of female republican ceos, who over the summer romney could trot out, and they could make a case, we need a republican president. we need these values. so what happens in april is not necessarily what happens in november. >> chuck todd, thank you. we'll see you on "the daily rundown." bob woodward, stay with us. up next, we'll bring in the former director of the white house foreign domestic policy, melody barnes. and david gregory will join the table. he is always in his office, always working. always, always. >> like barnicle. >> you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. but what we'd rather be making are tee times. tee times are the official start of what we love to do. the time for shots we'd rather forget, and the ones we'll talk about forever. in michigan long days, relaxing weather and more than 800 pristine courses make for the perfect tee time. because being able to play all day is pure michigan. your trip begins at michigan.org. hi, i just switched jobs, and i want to roll over my old 401(k) into a fidelity ira. man: okay, no problem. it's easy to get started; i can help you with the paperwork. um...this green line just appeared on my floor. yeah, that's fidelity helping you reach your financial goals. could you hold on a second? it's your money. roll over your old 401(k) into a fidelity ira and take control of your personal economy. this is going to be helpful. call or come in today. fidelity investments. turn here. president obama was the ring leader when it came to social media and engaging young voters. he is still the king. >> reporter: president obama has pioneered the use of social media. >> they raised a lot of money online. >> he is our first social media president. he is connected on facebook, twitter, and tumbl. >> he wastes a lot of time on [ bleep ]. >> mr. president, the russians are on the line. sshhh i'm a check in away from being the mayor on four square. welcome back at 26 past the hour. here with us now, moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. and former director of the white house domestic policy council and ceo of melody barnes solutions, melody barnes. >> she's got solutions! you've got problems, melody's got solutions. >> melody barnes solutions, very good. >> we have been talking about ed gillespie coming in. have you ever seen a campaign that needs someone like him more, to discipline the message and the schedule, than mitt romney's campaign? >> well, i think -- and we'll talk about it here. what romney really wants to do and where i think gillespie will help is get into a general election mode where he can start to address some of the things he wants to address, which is the problem with swing voters, the problem with female voters, the problem with latino voters, where he is inheriting the republican party's problems, where the white house has made it less about romney and more about the republican party brand. so he's got the ability to make -- we all made fun of the etch a sketch comment, but the reality is he does have the ability to change the focus when we get to general election time. and i think somebody like ed gillespie can help him do that. he's been in the white house. head of the rnc. has kind of a broad range of experience to do that. >> been through some campaigns. you look at george w. bush's campaign in 2000, you didn't have aides making these etch a sketch mistakes. barack obama, the candidate didn't even go out sometimes the message was so controlled. and mohopefully as a republican that is tired of watching my party shoot itself in the foot, romney is giving gillespie the power to say, guys, shut up. the candidate will talk. you shut up. >> the bush campaign, which was so effective, they had about four major pillars of that candidacy and they drove it. they had problems in the primaries early on, but he drove that general election message, and compassionate conservatism had a broader-based appeal. and even former president bill clinton said, you didn't listen to me. he was a pretty conservative guy. but the way he was able to frame that became very important. >> and melody, barack obama's campaign just four day years ago, you had no doubt that if anybody was talking to the press, it might be the president or david axelrod. but there was extraordinary discipline in the obama camp while the clintons had people that were leaking to the press every day. i mean, this message and this discipline makes such a huge difference, doesn't it? >> oh, it absolutely does. you want -- because there is so much going on every day when you turn on the television, you want to have a very clear, disciplined crisp message going out so people understand what you care about, what your issues is, and what your policies is. i think to david's point what you talk about is important as well, including who talks about it. >> the obama team sees a great opportunity this year with the gender gap, which is 1 poi8 poi. that's kind of narrow. this is going to be a tight race at the end. but the obama team is going to focus on women, in an extra, extra focused way, right? >> like a laser beam. but that also is consistent with what's been happening from the very beginning. when i was on the campaign, the president was talking about these issues. from day one, we were talking about these issues. the first bill he signed helping women deal with pay discrimination issues. health care, a big issue for women because women are also often the ones who control health care for their families. you know, the glass ceiling. the sticky floor. the locked door. those are issues over and over and over that have been consistently problems. when you have women as 50% of the work force but earning 77 cents on the dollar to a man, those are issues they care about, and they dove tail with the economy so beautifully. >> and they are politically wins issues. look, they have been at it for -- ever since this president got into office, absolutely, working very hard on this issue. white house council on women and girls as well as hillary clinton around the world trying to lift women up globally. but now, it's useful. >> it's very interesting. hillary clinton even getting out, taking a swipe at rush limbaugh, knowing she's going to get headlines. again, trying to drag this message out. this narrative along. >> but the -- it's learned by all who watch or participate in presidential campaigns, there are events that occur. and we live in a very dangerous world. and this week, we're not talking about north korea or israran or pakistan, all of these things that have not been solved, and then something can happen and all of a sudden it totally obliterates the message control that everyone in the campaign wants to have. and president obama, it's a vulnerable economic time. it is a vulnerable time in international relations. and i think they kind of have to hold their breath. but things will happen. and we may look back at this campaign and say it's the events that drive it, not the david axelrods or the ed gillespies. >> i'm glad you brought up, though, these unforeseen events. because not to keep going back to a theme, but i think this is important, david. when things hit the fan, that's when you want a jim baker that's been there and done it. that's when you want a david axelrod. that's when you want an ed-gillespie who can say, let me tell you, this is just like 1996 when i was going around with dole, or this is just like 2000 when i was with bush. you just relax, governor, and this is what you need to do. and you just get a sense that you have a lot of -- the only thing i have heard approximate r -- heard about romney's people is they hate each other and they hate the press. and ed gillespie can say, guys, we live in a small country called washington, d.c., and you have to work with the press. >> i don't know that they hate the press. >> some of them hate the press. >> well, i have covered a lot of administrations and campaign that don't seem so keen on what we do. >> just a tad bit? >> just a tad bit. but i think those things will level themselves out. >> alex told me that was just you. [ laughter ] >> here i thought it was everyone. >> i have a feeling -- >> i keep saying to myself every day, it's not about me, it's not about me. [ laughter ] >> but, joe, i think it's also how you talk about some of these issues. the reality is, a white house event today is not going to be remembered by the voters. it's going to be seen by some as staging around a particular issue. it's how the president will talk about some of these issues, whether it's income disparity, equity in income between men and women, and how ultimately governor romney will talk about these issues as well. but health care cuts both ways. of course, women care a lot about health care, but we know this president has not really sold health care to a majority of the country. so there area also a lot of people concerned about government making your health care choices for you, and that includes women. so some of the big issues will come down to how they are discuss the, and particularly unforeseen events. take the economy in 2008. part of what was so winning for senator obama was temperament, the way he talked about dealing with a financial crisis, and who he surrounded himself. >> david, mike barnicle has temporarily sobered up and would like to join the conversation. >> thank you, mika, for that endorsement. i appreciate it. >> yeah. >> you know, it's interesting out there in the country. there are two levels i think going on right now after this campaign in the eyes of many americans. one is the obvious. the political, as you just referenced, as you have been referencing nearly every day. but i think for the first time since perhaps 1968, there's a psychological aspect to this campaign. there's a very anxious feeling in this country. a lot of anxiety. who are we? and i think we all underestimate the impact that a decades-worth of war has had on many people. it's worn down the country and had many, many people, voters, thinking about the immediate future and the long-range future for their children, in this, the greatest country in the world. are we still going to be the greatest country in the world? and that's something that both candidates are going to have to address in some fashion. >> can i just say, i think one of the things we are heading toward is two distinct visions for the country and what government ought to do. i think that war wariness, our place in the world, is part of it. i think the other piece is what government should do in a time of economic distress. i really do think there's going to be broad visions. we've got to get to that place where we have that big debate. but i think that's what striking about where we are. >> and i think this idea of who we are, what are our values, and that's why the president often speaks to shared sacrifice, shared responsibility, how do we come together as a country, grow our economy, and create greater security, given the problems that we're facing. i also think you're right, policy matters. and that's why when it comes to health care, there's this focus on what the benefits are and what people are getting right now. >> all right. melody barnes, david gregory. by the way, who do you have on? >> dick durbin and governor kasich of ohio. >> if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." and thank you to melody barnes, melody barnes solutions. i like it. >> we need solutions. still ahead, dr. bre zen ski will way in. "morning joe" is back in a moment. >> ridiculous. >> ridiculous. that's the word. >> i like it. man: 1939 -- my parents ran across an ad for a hot dog cart. my mother said, "well, maybe we ought to buy this hot dog cart and set it up someplace." so my parents went to bank of america. they met with the branch manager and they said, "look, we've got this little hot dog cart, and it's on a really good corner. let's see if we can buy the property." and the branch manager said, "all right, i will take a chance with the two of you." and we've been loyal to bank of america for the last 71 years. they have names like idle time with free enterprise punsfee like hugh and crye, and smash records. and one saturday a year small businesses remind a nation of the benefits of shopping small. like the way david kaplan at shell lumber shows you how to use a chop saw. then invites you back when the warehouse becomes the community theater. or the way camille russler of ever after travels the journey from despair to bliss with every bride to be. on small business saturday 100 million of us joined a movement... and main street found its might again. and main street found its fight again. and we, the locals, found delight again. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the power of all of us. that's the membership effect of american express. up economics, former national security adviser dr. zbigniew brzezinski joins us here in washington. we'll see how he insults me. hi, dad. how are you doing? oh, you look nice. >> very strong. >> i knew it. >> see, i told you. ♪ you are my sunshine, my only sunshine ♪ ♪ you make me happy when skies are gray ♪ [ female announcer ] you know exactly what it takes to make them feel better. ♪ you make me happy [ female announcer ] that's why you choose children's tylenol. the same brand your mom trusted for you when you were young. ♪ how much i love you [ humming ] [ female announcer ] children's tylenol, the #1 brand of pain and fever relief recommended by pediatricians and used by moms decade after decade. [ humming ] at 44 past the hour, look at that beautiful shot of lower manhattan on this friday morning. joining us now in washington, former national security adviser for president carter, dr. zbigniew brzezinski, dad, who is the author of "strategic vision" which will be featured on the cover of this sunday's "new york times" book review. >> you're kidding me. >> no. that is cool. that's going to be great. >> dr. brzezinski, you have done just about everything. but is this the first time you have been on the cover of "the new york times" book review? >> probably, yes. >> he's done like 25 books. >> i can neither confirm nor deny. so it's good news that "the new york times" book review is putting you on the cover. but there aren't a lot of other places that are talking right now about foreign policy in a prominent way. we're talking about debt and budgets and we're talking about taxes. but foreign policy has taken a real back seat in this presidential campaign. how dangerous is that? >> well, i don't think it's particularly dangerous that it's taken a back seat because if it has taken a back seat, it means that for the moment at least nothing awful is happening. usually, it's in the front seat when something awful is happening. so in that sense, it's a good sign. now, i wouldn't bet too much that it won't happen before election day, though, that it will be on the front seat. >> and, bob, you were talking before about how a lot of people aren't -- you have got of course the possibility of iran over the summer. you have mitt romney attacking barack obama for his off camera statement or his off mic statement on russia. >> right. and the question to the expert here is, where, if you were to say -- what's your top three where there might be some sort of ignition, where there might be some sort of blow-up, if you were to say where in the world? because it's a very long list, which in itself is troubling. >> i think the first two are relatively obvious and the third uncertain. i would certainly say iran is a possibility. and certainly just before the elections. the second one is if syria kind of stumbles into a larger civil war, which conceivably could spread a little bit into lebanon, a little bit even into iraq, and could merge with the crisis with iran. the third one is really guess work. it could be anything. it could be north korea. it could be afghanistan-pakistan. it could be something else altogether unexpected. >> and we still have 90,000 troops in afghanistan. and if you try to take the temperature, a lot of people, even in the administration, are uncomfortable with that. it is not happy to go into a campaign and have 90,000 troops engaged in an unpopular, uncertain war. >> well, it's a problem. but, you know, 90,000 is not enough to win. and it's too many for all a sudden to be pulled out. so we have to go at it in a steady fashion. and here i support the president entirely. i think he has a strategy for afghanistan, which not only deals with the troop issue, but it also deals with what follows after the troops have left. on the spot, and regionally. and these three issues are interrelated. >> dr. brzezinski, we're going to put you in a difficult position. >> oh, no. >> so, ian, of course, your son, who worked for the bush administration, so you didn't criticize george w. bush for eight years -- oh, wait, yes, you did. now is doing some work possibly for mitt romney. let's herd him over there, by my asking you what's your take on mitt romney and foreign policy? >> well, so far, he hasn't said anything extensive on foreign policy. but he makes some comments which i thought were very troubling. the easy, quick fashion with which he disposes of the iranian problem by indicating that in effect he would be using force is very troubling. i don't think a presidential candidate should be playing around with matches that way. and this whole thing can become explosive, disturbing, and destructive. i think the chance we have now is to make the negotiating process move forward. but notice the pressures are building up against the negotiating process to accelerate it, to impose unacceptable and really unusual demands on iran. that's building up. there's a very interesting and very helpful article on this by dennis ross. who in effect lays out the -- >> tell people who dennis ross is. >> well, dennis ross is an experienced participant in the foreign policy making process. he dealt extensively with the middle eastern problem. >> for bush and for obama. >> for bush and obama. so he is bipartisan. he has extensive contacts with the israelis. and his piece in a way lays out the israeli negotiating posture, which is to push us into making as extensive and really unique demands on iran, in effect not treating iran as a member of the nonproliferation treaty who should be compelled to respect the nonproliferation treaty, but as a country that has to be put into a special cage and in effect have conditions imposed on it, which are not only extremely restrictive, far beyond the mpt, but humiliating. and of course that would unite the public of iran with the regime encourage a negative response which then of course could then be used to claim that we have to attack iran. >> sam stein, there's been a fight in the republican party between traditional conservatives, people in the jim baker, colin powell realm and neocons. look at people around mitt romney who is going to win the nomination, for the most part he's surrounded by neocons within the republican establishment, looks like the neoconservatives have won. >> a couple -- it wasn't too long ago when there was an actual conversation about what to do with the defense budget, whether or not you could get savings out of the defense budget and we've moved on. josh green has talked about it. mitt romney wants to expand it increase maritime press in the mediterranean, all of the things that are traditional, militaryistic, neoconservative view points. a piece in the "new york times" new ships they're building, $750 million a ship and they're untested and they're sort of self-destructing now. we're spending a ton of money in the defense budget. the question for you, because we're talking about how these things aren't getting proper attention right now, is when you look at the defense budget and look at how much money we spend on things like armament and ships, is there stuff, ways to cut the fat? if so, how do you do it in the context of the presidential campaign? >> you press me to identify where the waste is, i wouldn't be able to respond to you. look at the overall picture here is one country that is spending on military purposes as much as the rest of the world combined. obviously there is some disproportion in this, obviously there is some fat in this. we are really spending incredible amounts of money on weaponry. the world which probably in the future the issue of distribution of power and global stability is not going to be decided in destructive war but through engagement of sporadic die vens, diplomacy, economic policy, influence and the strength of our own domestic economy. >> what's the political bounce for obama? i think may 1st is the one-year anniversary of the killing of osama bin laden. you think the white house is going to make much of that? is the fact that obama is the one who got osama bin laden going to be -- is it going to put obama in cement in terms of, gee, you know, he's tough enough to be president, does that last? have we forgotten that? >> you know better than me, good deeds in politics are registered and forgotten, failures live on forever. >> you know about that. >> ask george h.w. bush, christmas 1991 saw the soviet union collapse, we would agree he did a masterful job helping reunify germany, not being divisive, yet -- >> it's a strong one. >> look at jimmy carter, panama canal, camp david, the salt agreement. >> there was that pesky iranian hostage situation that would not go away. >> the traditional attack on a democratic politician is he's weak on national security and obama has a trump card here and that's -- >> much of that, triple the number of troops in afghanistan, putting drones in countries we're not even at war, which concern me, but stop republicans to say he's weak on national security. that seems to be a losing argument. >> if there's no major conflict, it isn't a relevant argument, either. >> dad, thank you very much "strategic vision." >> he looks good. do you know why he looks good? >> i'm messing up the title of the book. yes, he looks good and introduced me to lithuanian vodka. >> look at him. go to dr. brzezinski. there's a glow about him. >> imlike my head hurts. >> a plug for lithuanian vodka. >> thank you so much. >> headed out to the council on women and the economy. thank you very much. i'm freaking out man. why? i thought jill was your soul mate. no, no it's her dad. the general's your soul mate? dude what? no, no, no. he's, he's on my back about providing for his little girl. hey don't worry. e-trade's got a totally new investing dashboard. everything is on one page, your investments, quotes, research... it's like the buffet last night. whatever helps you understand man. i'm watching you. oh yeah? well i'm watching you, watching him. 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encourage the editor of the new york times to go on the war path against augusta, maybe do a two, three, four-week battle with the boys down in augusta national. >> the point is, it took them forever to invite an african-american or, you know, a jewish ceo. >> right. >> and we don't know how many there because all of that is secret. and i get the traditions, but the point is, what about women golfers? what about girls looking at this, teenagers, young women who these are role models these players. >> what's the point of at this juncture you're inviting more scrutiny and animosity. >> ibm spends millions of dollars to sponsor this and their shareholders and board members ought to be saying what if we spend this money on if the board member's not invited. >> this just in, i don't think we're getting through to augusta. >> didn't they play the masters for several years without commercials? am i wrong? >> no, no, there was that -- willie geist, of course you went down to augusta and you've written a great piece about it of course there was the threatened boycott. cbs threatened to take -- this come as long every ten years -- but, no, sam, when you were 3 years old cbs actually -- willie geist, tell the story. cbs said we may not be able to broadcast the masters this year. >> cbs went to augusta national, said we have had a long and wonderful relationship but we're under a lot of heat, sponsors are calling on us, you need to do something about the policy. hoodie johnson, the head of the club and membership said that's fine, we'll pay for the broadcast ourselves. so they reach into their own pockets and do it. you have to understand about augusta national, they view america as visitors for one week and one week only and they don't care what you think of them. if you're a member of the working press, the minute that last press conference is over, the gate is locked and you are not welcome back in. if you want do a live shot monday morning, you cannot. the place is closed. now that done mean they shouldn't have women. they should. it's ridiculous this day and age, most visible golf tournament in the world should have women at the club. i'm telling you they simply do not care what the world thinks of them. >> yeah. and the thing is, too, you grew up in the south, i grew up in the south. >> not far from augusta. >> not that far from augusta. your experience is far different than my experience, but i can tell you as a middle class white guy, you know, when lived in meridian, we were allowed to walk past meridian country club on country club drive walking at the big houses but we knew you don't step on to the course. you lived there. it's not -- for people watching that aren't aware of the way this works, it's not just race driven or gender driven, it's also class driven. >> it's class. >> if you're not inside the little club you can't pay your way into augusta. you've got to be part of a small, small club. >> it's a huge part of it. there is race. there is gend. >> no doubt about that. >> but i -- it would be interesting to hear if like anybody brought it up. my membership at augusta has been lost in the mail for some years now and may never get through. so i'm not privy to that. it t. would be interesting to know, did anybody -- any members from new york -- >> how about the pga which has said, they have a policy of not having tournaments at courses that discriminate. >> they have a policy of not killing cash cows. >> but mike, they also do -- they and do have a policy as well of -- i don't know -- making tons and tons of money the first weekend in april. >> you know you, have to be invited to join augusta, it's not one of these clubs where you apply. that's one thing. >> right. >> the other thing is, if you go to augusta to play, and i have played augusta, back when i played -- >> really? >> yeah, i've played it. not well, but i played it once. here's the deal. if you go into the clubhouse -- >> now you're banned. >> yeah. >> i will be in ten seconds. you go into the clubhouse and it's clear that the calendar on the wall is at about 1948. that's when time stopped at augusta. but i would also say this, that augusta's the most public example of the way some clubs exclude people. but this goes on at a lot of other clubs throughout the country, clubs run by a handful of people, many of whom the only chance to exert power over anything or anyone is to say no to they can blackball particular people applying for a golf membership or whatever. this is not unique in the world of golf. >> not unique in the deep south. >> you would think -- >> hold on. try to get into new england clubs. >> i'm not saying it's unique to the south. i'm saying for augusta, this is a gimme putt, you've got the ceo of the sponsoring corporation and so you let her in and then you've done it you have your one woman, if that's what they want to do. >> go with the one -- >> whatever. >> -- jewish ceo. >> we're talking about this because mitt romney and the white house yesterday said that women should be admitted into the club. speaking of gender, republican national committee chairman reince priebus is suggesting that his party is not having problems with female voters. take a look at what he had to say. >> the democrats, of course, say you're waging -- the gop's waging a war on women. i know you don't agree with that. looking at the polls, you have a gender gap problem. recent polls show a huge, huge margin for democrats with among women voters. how big a problem is it? how do you close it? >> for one thing, if the democrats said we have a war on caterpillars and every main treatment talked about we have a war on caterpillars then we'd have problems with caterpillars. the fact of the matter is it's a fiction. >> the democratic national committee, of course, of course, bounced on his remarks calling them, quote, callous and dismissive of what matters to women and is completely out of touch. they cited a recent poll that puts the president ahead of romney by 18 points among women in key swing states and 34 points among caterpillars. obama senior adviser david axelrod tweeted this, from the department of includeless, rnc chair says gop problems with women are contrived by the media. andrea? >> well, i think the interesting thing about this is that the lead story in the "new york times" today is that the republican national committee under rinse preeb bus has retired its debt. they've raise sod much money. so he has done a really good job on the money front. on this front -- >> you're being nice. this is a clueless thing to say. >> it was a figure of speech. >> about caterpillars? >> people bounced on the caterpillars. he wasn't trying to compare people to insects but his point -- >> of course he wasn't, but it was clumsy. >> it was clumsy. >> are you a borat fan? do you see where he knocked on the door and he opened up the door, helping this candidate, and a woman answered the door and he goes i want to speak to the man of the house, and she goes he's not here and she goes i can vote. no, no, you've got the man, the horse, the dog, the rat, the woman, and then the caterpillar. this reminded me -- this reminded me yesterday of borat. >> you've got to work on your impression. it was close. >> of course he didn't compare women to caterpillars but that was clumsy, at best. >> he wasn't saying women are caterpillars but the offensive part was he called the war on women fiction. you talk to women who aren't even political, and they would say there's a lot of legislation being introduced across many states -- >> 90 states. >> -- 90 states. >> 90 pieces of legislation. >> 90 pieces of legislation. to say fixle. >> talking about abortion rights. >> some contraception, some of it is invasive procedures prior to abortion. >> one thing i don't think we've said that needs to be out there and then i'll go to you, gene, but some of the most intense conservative pro-life people i have ever met are women in the republican party. most of the people that write me really nasty e-mails -- and i'm sure you get it -- and texts on social issues are mainly women. it's not just men in the back rooms of country clubs that are putting these pieces of legislation together. wouldn't have mentioned that for people that haven't been to a republican meeting. >> that's true, though it is mostly men in the legislatures who are -- >> you're right there are a lot of women on the abortion issue who write me the same e-mails that they write you. but the public face of what's happening and the actors behind what's happening are basically male. i don't think we should give rineince priebus a pass on the metaphor. >> i'm with joe, i don't think he was saying women are caterpillars. he's trying to figure out a way to say this is all made up. >> it's a made-up war. >> let's go to new york. willie, do you and mike consider women to be the equivalent, rough equivalent, of caterpillars? >> no, i think it's fair to say i don't. i don't think he was comparing women to caterpillars. what's worse to me how incorrect it is. look at numbers. we show this poll all week, president obama's up something like 18 points on mitt romney, put together 12 swing states on women. the facts to me are worse, the complete denial of a problem that clearly exists for the party. >> joe, i think reince priebus is probably in the position 0 of more republicans he doesn't know what to say about this dilemma, this gender gap dilemma that they have. we have spoken about this before in the past few weeks. all you have to do is go grocery shopping and you find out that a lot of women in this country, some conservative women as well, have been so offended by the whole deal with contraception, much of it coming from republicans that you have now candidates like scott brown in massachusetts, he's gone through at least five pairs of new balance sneakers running away from the national party on this issue. >> yeah. >> you know women feel that people should be talking about economic issues, yet they feel that their basic rights, rights that they felt were decided decades ago, now are an issue again. that's what's -- it's not just democratic women. >> i was in north carolina not long ago, happened to be in a conversation with several republican women who were irate, who were just beside themselves about -- and were very angry the question is after rick santorum is out of the race, and believe he's going to decide to get out of the race. he can't lose pennsylvania. that's the end of the line. for him if he loses pennsylvania and we're focused on mitt romney they're going to figure out a way to chip away that. very good news for romney. ed gillespie, regardless of what you think of him politically, ed gillespie, if, if romney's smart enough to let ed come in and clear out the deadwood in that campaign and put a profession that knows how to run a presidential campaign, if they g give ed the power you'll see issues like this go away. >> we have been in about a month and a half, two month-long period it's every day something new comes up and we're talking about the war on women. that just doesn't seem like it can sustain itself. if democrats were crafty, and i think some are, i don't know, maybe, they would use strategically place bills, get vets, reintroduce things as the summer goes on -- >> when you talk about -- you keep saying war on women. talking about abortion issues? >> i'm not talking -- i don't want to use the word war on women because it's loaded. >> i keep hearing this. >> a series of legislative -- pieces of legislation introduced not just about abortion, but about contraception. when people talk about the war on women, what they mean is also sort of the rhetoric. you talk about foster friess comments and people saying -- i don't want to butcher the quote, lawmakers locally who have said you should close your eyes and deal with it. >> talking about the virginia -- >> the results of this are that women -- the least fortunate women are not getting basic screening and health care because the governor have turned back screening. >> which mitt romney says, after having donated to planned parenthood years ago, he wants to completely defund, that's a big thing. >> we're bringing in some of the nation's preeminent religious leaders for a special discussion on the state of faith in america. also about to get the much anticipated march jobs report. plus, he's the only knuckleball pitcher in the majors right now and he's starting saturday's game for the mets. r.a. dicky joins us in a few minutes. willie's week in review. first, bill karins with a check on the holiday weekend forecast. >> good morning, joe. it's a good friday in many ways. the weather pattern nearly perfect around the country. two travel trouble spots out friday morning. one light rain heading through the areas around wilmington, eastern north carolina, looks like at augusta for the masters golf tournament, no problems with the weather. the storm system clearing out. if you're in montana, you're dealing with a winter storm, 6 to 12 inches of snow. forecast for today, dry, mild good friday. beautiful weather after a chilly start from new england all the way through the great lakes. as far as saturday goes, we'll see showers in the middle of the country. it's not a washout. looks really nice in many spots. for easter sunday, only trouble spot on the west coast, rain from san francisco northward to seattle and portland. middle of the country to the east coast, fantastic for easter sun. a few storms in texas. that's not going to ruin your day or easter egg hunt. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. my mother froze everything. i was 18 years old before i had my first fresh bun. the invention that i came up with is the hot dog ez bun steamer. steam is the key to a great hot dog. i knew it was going to be a success. the invention was so simple that i knew i needed to protect it. my name is chris schutte and i got my patent, trademark and llc on legalzoom. 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>> the long tradition of having irish catholics. >> it started with st. patrick. so, for pensacola, i understand -- >> west palm beach. >> okay. i have somebody in my ear saying from your home district. they figure florida is just one. we're only 20 hours away from west palm beach. so cardinal, let's begin with you, first of all, just talk about the significance of good friday. is this the most important religious date on the christian calendar? >> well, it certainly forms part of a three days that are those most significant days and it begins with the commemoration of the death of jesus and it ends with the celebration of his resurrection. today we're focused, though, on his death. but we look at that through a lens that sees multiple layers. the first is the historic recognition, he died. he hung on the cross and died some 2,000 years ago. but then we see it through another prism and that is, we see our salvation unfolding on the cross. it's not just the death of a human being it's a redemptive action. and i think the third level in which all of us can see this is it's a great sign of hope, of redemption, his message of love one another doesn't seem to make sense when you're hanging on a cross and dying unless you realize he did live that. >> right. >> and he says to us, try it. try it and see what happens. >> when you have jesus saying forgive your enemies, forgive 70 times 7 it has more a great impact considering his death. rabbi, passover and good friday and easter don't always come at the same time but they certainly did in jesus' day and again this weekend. talk about passover and the significance of passover to the jewish faith. >> absolutely. first, they do come in a similar time, it one holiday that christians use to use the lunar calendar to formulate. they have kept it, and i've always thought of it, as an interfaith connectiveness. they're not terribly far apart. always in the same time. passover is the day of our liberation, of our freedom. the israelites who have become a metaphor for anyone until pressed use the passover in their way of thinking and the image, the mission of passover, i know lizzening to the cardinal, it has an underlying mission. first of all, you're a people oppressed. the name of the place where we were oppressed, the hebrew name for egypt. what's not known is it means a narrow place. it means a place where you're really oppressed and compressed. and you're in that. all of a sudden a leader, a guy named moses but it doesn't have to be moses, it could be mandela, someone else, says i want to lead this people out. often a person that's had a little privilege. knows a little bit about the palace, moses hung out in the palace for a while. that person organizes, gets people together that are also oppressed, and the thing that sometimes left out in the modern secularist world about passover, because passover's celebrated by all jews and other people, there's an inspirational piece. i call that inspirational piece. i call it god. these people weren't going to make it if they didn't connect with some greater power. you get from the slavery of egypt to the freedom of the end of the story. by the end of tonight, all of the jews that are celebrating it christians should be free. i do an interfaith seder, i live in new york but i came down for this, it's half jews and half christians, whether it be the concerns about homophobia in america or whether suffering through depression or through problematic situations with their kids, often people have different kinds of oppression, different kinds of narrow places and at the end of the evening they have found their freedom. every pass over we begin in slavery of some sort and wind up in freedom. wind up free. >> mike barnicle is in new york and has a question. >> father o'brien, off of that theme of connection and his eminence obviously talking about faith and this week in passover and easter combined, your world, georgetown university, is a very diverse world of young people, students, of many faiths from many different countries. what is the degree of difficulty in talking to students today and the campus of georgetown about the elements of faith? about the strength of their faith. how to maintain their faith? >> yeah. thanks, mike. we've -- we're the oldest catholic university in the country but we have long committed ourselves to serious interfaith dialogue and understanding. there is lots of common ground and part of that is the service that commitment that we have the common good. the commitment we have to our belief in god. i think what we try to move to is from those commonplaces where we get to know one another to a place where we can actually engage differences. so at schools and universities and parishes, which are trying to form adults in their faith, we're trying to help catholics and christians understand their faith so that they can go to the table, having a meaningful conversation, but conversation that sometimes goes to differences but we can -- what we need so much in our world today among religions is to talk about differences in a respectful attentive listening way. i think we can be a model. people across faith traditions can be a model about how to have that dialogue and frankly our politics needs it, too. >> cardinal, let me apologize ahead of time. we're going to lower the level of conversation bringing in an episcopalian, he did win a pulitzer prize, and the cover of "time" magazine. come on, is there a heaven? i have pour rick stingle on trying to explain this yesterday and obviously he didn't stay awake in theology class. i'm going to get you on set next time on this rethinking heaven. we've got the cardinal here. would love for you to ask him a question. >> i'm going to ask a very historically-based episcopalian question. joe refers to my faith has a half-way house to atheism. >> it's a joke. it's a joke. my dad was an episcopalian. >> it raises all sorts of issues. one of the great things that i think people who are not intensely observant this time of year, these three, four great days, is understanding that those of us who are observant and who do think about these things believe these events really happened, that is, this unfolded in real time in a jerusalem spring about the year 33 and it's really important for i think people to -- who want to understand christianity, understand that we believe there was an empty tomb there was a physical bodily resurrection that reversed the order of things, and i wonder if you could speak to this tension sometimes in the world between people on outside saying, that's all a nice story and it's symbolic and those of us think, no, this happened as if you could see it right now. >> i think your point is so important today. the reality is rooted in the fact. the fact is, jesus died, hung on the cross, and died, and there was an empty tomb and there were witnesses who saw the risen lord. that's the factual foundation. now we also recognize that we see, we see beyond just those facts to something much deeper, much richer. and that brings us to the act of faith. faith is not disconnected from reality. it's rooted in the very reality. he hung on the cross and died, he rose from the dead. there was an empty tomb. and the witnesses, that what we do now, we carry on that word, we saw him, we saw him alive. we also recognize with the eyes of faith that the cross was redemptive and the resurrection is the source of our new life. but the two are meshed together. >> and, rabbi, there's so many examples of the miracle surrounding moses, the liberation of the israeli people and, again, this very cynical age, people go, nice stories, but really, he didn't part the red seas there was a lunar tide and if you -- i mean, trying to explain away miracles. but the very essence of passover is, you said is, there is something bigger than ourselves. there is a god in the heaven and he's looking down on us he will help us, like he helped moses. >> i think the cardinal said it best. we believe. we believe for thousands of years this story happened. i assume it happened. we've talked about it. we've nermtinterpreted it. i believe this happened. i want to talk about it as happening because this story, this reality, this faith that i have is what has allowed my people -- and much of the world, catholics, muslims, this is not a story limited to jews did to find their freedom, liberation and liberty wherever they are. faith is -- faith is a will to believe, as a theologian of the past said. >> father? >> i think for a christian to really understand what it means to be a christian we have to become good jews. >> welcome you. >> but i think we have to understand the jewish story. we have to understand who jesus was as a jew, understand so many of catholic and christian rituals come from judaism when you look at the catholic mass, for instance. so what we try to do and teach young people, particularly, is what is jewish about our religion because tlz here's so y symbols and worlds to express a new covenant, something entirely new. >> jon meacham, thank you for calling in. i will get you next week on set. we're going to go through this "time" magazine article. >> i just want to point out that this is actually quite what's throwing you off is it's quite orthodox. it goes directly, directly to what you're talking. this is a very clear reading of the new testament. >> give me a break. it is feel-good new ageism you universalist. when you come back the southern baptist is going to get a piece of you. sorry you had to hear that, cardinal. >> a blessed easter to you, too. >> exactly. jon meacham. cardinal, thank you so much for being with us. great to have you again. >> blessed east. >> blessed easter. >> rabbi, thank you for coming. >> blessed passover. >> thank you. >> thank you so much, father. when we come back, we're going to have the new monthly jobs report numbers. they are just crossing. very important. we shall return. i've never slept better. 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[ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ [ clang ] my house is where plants came to die. ♪ but, it turns out all i was missing was miracle-gro potting mix. it's got what a plant needs. even plant food that feeds them for up to 6 months. you get bigger, more beautiful plants. guaranteed. who's got two green thumbs thanks to miracle-gro? uh, this gal. boom! everyone grows with miracle-gro. welcome back to "morning joe" on good friday. here with us now, new york mets' pitcher, the only knuckleballer in baseball, r.a. dickey, out with "wherever i wind up, my quest for truth, authenticity and the perfect knuckleball." great to see you today especially on a day when the new york tabloids are saying good things about the new york mets. the back page of the daily news, look who's in first. front page of the "new york post"s, mets undefeated 161 games to go. got to like that. a great start for johan santana, looked good. >> having him back gives us a big charge. he lets people slot where they need to go in the rotation, takes pressure off a the of people. >> what's it been like, especially last year, you felt like you had tallent, a good ballpark, money to spend but it was a real struggle. what was the mood in the clubhouse last year? >> it's never a good scene when you're not winning, it's tough. but we also had a lot of injuries and because we had a lot of injuries it made it even tougher. so spring training was important to get everybody healthy. we lost our center fielder yesterday, he pulled his calf muscle. we'll be getting somebody soon. but our nucleus of guys are altogether, johann's back, david's healthy, ike dive avis back, that's huge. a good mix of young and old players. >> i wonder, i grew up in new jersey as a new york yankee fan -- i should point out, those were lean years, they weren't winning the world series every year -- what it's like playing for the new york mets in a town dominated by the yankee because of the way they've performed over the last 15 years? >> i've loved it. i fell a real connection with the fans and i feel like it's, you know, kind of a working man's team. my experience has been great. we haven't won as many games as we like, but we think it's going to change relatively soon. there's a lot of hope in the air over there in flushing. >> talk -- let's talk about the book. >> yeah. >> "wherever i wind up" what inspired you to put your life into pages of a book? >> i was an english major in college and always wanted to write. i felt like my life was unique enough that i had a very interesting story and so i thought that's the genre i wanted to start with, and so i started with writing about my life and i tell you, it was really hard. the 2008, when i first started writing the book, things were too painful. so i had to set it down for a couple of years until i had equipment to handle it the vocabulary to be able to talk about it, and then i started about 2010 really writing hard on it. >> you say it was painful. what was the painful part for you? >> you know, when you pick up the book, you know, there's a few chapters in there that are fairly dark. i had some sexual abuse stuff is in there, growing up in a divorced family. there's a connection that i feel like probably all of us have, you know, none of us are immune to adversity, you know? i felt like it was a real relatable story. so i started it and it ends at the last -- my last game in 2011. >> one of the really interesting aspects of the book is that fact of your life, that you reference, the sexual abuse when you were a child. given the fact you were a part of a macho culture of baseball, did you have trepidation about writing that, wondering what the reaction would be among your fellow players? >> absolutely. i eventually had to come to the place where i was okay with whatever the response was going to be. i had to get to that place. but you know, sure, when anytime you risk transparency, you risk vulnerability coming from a place of sexual abuse when you don't trust anybody, it's hard to do. it took me a lot of hard work, therapy, great people in my life investing in me to get me to the place where i could share my story. but the support and the encouragement i've got within the culture of the clubhouse has been overwhelming and fantastic. >> you're professional tra transformation, the knuckleba knuckleballknuckleball. you're going to be pitching until you're 60. >> my kids might have something to say about that. >> what is it about that pitch? >> i don't know. it's -- it's art, you know? it's organic. it's not like being a conventional pitcher, it's not necessarily a science. it's much more artistic. i feel like i have a relationship with a baseball, the pressure of the finger nails in the leather, all of it. it's i a tough pitch to throw which you don't see a lot of guys throwing it. >> a fun pitch to watch, no question. r.a. dickey on the hill against the atlanta braves. a beautiful day. a beautiful stadium. go to the mets game it's more fun when the mets are good in the city. have another good season. >> absolutely. >> great to meet you. "wherever i wind up, the quest for truth, awe then tis si." younow who you are. you can part a crowd, without saying a word. you have yet to master the quiet sneeze. you stash tissues like a squirrel stashes nuts. well, muddlers, muddle no more. try zyrtec®. it gives you powerful allergy relief. and zyrtec® is different than claritin® because zyrtec® starts working at hour 1 on the first day you take it. claritin® doesn't start working until hour 3. zyrtec®. love the air. time for the weekly review. ♪ i'm only a paperboy >> number three, the oracle sings again. ♪ the money you pay for this it all belongs to me♪ >> nebraska billionaire who, as you may have heard, pays taxes at a lower rate than his secretary back on the mike this week. this time, repping hard for news boys at the press club musical. yes, warren buffett long ago reached the net worth which one can do whatever one damn well pleases without any condition at all for looking, well, like a guy playing a ukulele in front of his giant train set ♪ i've been working on the railroad just to pass the time away♪ >> reporter: number two, car trouble. >> guys, it's throwing 18 wheelers. >> reporter: a rough week to be a tractor-trailer. these two became famous around the world after they were sucked up into a texas tornado. >> there's lots of 18 wheelers. this is something i have never seen before. >> reporter: this disabled one in norway dragged a tow truck off a snowy mountain road and over a cliff. everybody was okay. and this smaller truck drove right into a connecticut convenience store, narrowly missed a customer, and then calmly backed out as if nothing had happened. and the number one story of the week -- >> a trojan horse. it is thinly veiled social darwin up, it is antithetical. it makes contract with america look like the new deal. >> reporter: obama hinted he does not approve of the republican budget proposal mocking mitt romney's word choice in praise of the plan. >> and he even called it marvelous. which is a word you don't often hear when it comes to describing a budget. it's a word you don't often hear generally. >> reporter: even madmen got in a cheap shot this week at the romney name. >> henry francis. tell jim his honor's not going to michigan because romney's a clown. >> reporter: compared the party's problem wiwith women vo problem with caterpillars. >> we have a war with caterpillars and every media talked about we have a problem with caterpillars then we'd have a problem with caterpillars. >> reporter: romney swept the primary but was rick santorum promised to fight on in a fantasy he had where he's george washington and the rest of the field are german mercenaries. >> that's why he crossed the delaware, surprised the herbens and turned the tide of the revolution. >> reporter: in the combative week of national politics ann romney leapt to his husband's defense, threatening to unleash the beast. >> do you have to fight back critics like ply husband isn't stiff, okay? >> i guess i better unzip him and let the real mitt romney out. >> unzip the real mitt romney. next, what, if anything, did we learn today? ah, welcome to hotels.com. i get it...guys weekend. yeah! if you're looking for a place to get together, you came to the right place. because here at hotels.com, we're only about hotels. yeah! yeah! noooo. yeah! finding you the perfect place is all we do. welcome to hotels.com on december 21st polar shifts will reverse the earth's gravitational pull and hurtle us all into space. which would render retirement planning unnecessary. but say the sun rises on december 22nd, and you still need to retire. td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. we'll even throw in up to $600 when you open a new account or roll over an old 401(k). so who's in control now, mayans? time to tell you quickly what we've learned today as you get undressed for the

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