Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20120214

>> this is one of the greatest th gsme permy and i assume to lil' kim. tomorrow night, lil' kim and i will be together. the queen bee and me together on "watch what happens live." i dare you to miss it. "morning joe" starts right now. >> reluctantly crouched at the starting line. the green light flashes. >> the whitney houston coverage was pretty much the only news i saw over the break. i try to keep away from politics news. >> huge night for rick santorum. >> clean sweep across the board for rick santorum. >> republican presidential candidate took on huge wins in all three states, missouri, colorado and minnesota. >> what the hell? america -- i leave you alone for one week -- one week! i expect you, i expect you to go a little crazy. but making this guy the front-runner? man! >> it's tuesday. february 14th, do you know what day it is? >> february 14th. >> valentine's day. happy valentine's day. with us on set we the director of the earth institute at column bowia university, dr. jeffrey sachs. and we have financier and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner and in washington, republican strategist and vice chairman of the consulting firm, mark mckinnon. >> just look at him, seriously. >> we're going back to the future. it's going to be woodstock in a week with mckinnon. >> brings in his copy of the 2013 budget. >> jeffrey, thank you. >> happy valentine's day. >> i love it. there we go. >> this is so sweet. >> it's all here. >> we can just spend the next three hours reading from it. >> how romantic. >> that would be exciting, but let's go down to hippie, in washington. >> mark mckinnon. there are new polls out now that are showing -- what does it mean? you've got michigan, which is mitt romney's home state, it's where he was born. it was his fire wall in 2008. it's where he performed the strongest. now new polls out today showing that he's actually getting hammered there, mika, by about 15 points to this rick santorum guy. >> voters in michigan, head to the polls in less than two weeks. right now, rick santorum has the lead, hello, he edges out mitt romney by six points in the latest american research poll. michigan is the state where romney's father served as governor. newt gingrich comes in third with 21% support, followed by ron paul, polling at 12%. >> and that's public policy poll that we've been hearing whispers about over the last couple of days where santorum's lead over romney is even bigger, 39% to 24% lead. and of course, ron paul and newt gingrich falling further and further behind if all polls. and the ppp notes that santorum is ahead of mitt romney everywhere in michigan except oakland county, where romney lived as a child. >> that's nice. >> mark mckinnon, no need to overstate this. last week, when rick santorum won, somebody wisely won three states, somebody around the table said, that's great. but he's got no money and he's got no organization and he's got no chance. if he wins in michigan, we have to reassess this race completely don't we. do we need to stop calling mitt romney the front-run centre. >> absolutely it shows in this day and age with technology and media, how little money and organization really mean. if you've got a powerful message. and this is a true extension threat for mitt romney. if he doesn't win michigan, that's a true crisis. i've always thought there should be like a gore rule if you can't win your home state, then you don't get to be the nominee. you have to go home. so this is a big problem. now of course we're going to see starting today i'm sure the super pac money is going to unload from the romney machine. and it's going to get ugly up there. but rick santorum, unlike newt gingrich is a very powerful and consistent communicator and he also has a very consistent history with the cultural conservatives. and there are a lot of them up there in michigan. so there is going to be interesting in michigan. it's turning into a true, two-man race. >> you get the idea that newt gingrich sat alone in his room eating candy bars, reading history. rick santorum, you get the idea, beat up a bunch of brothers and they beat him up. because santorum is a tough guy. when he gets attacked, doesn't get angry, he just looks at mitt and you see it on the stage. he's really, mitt? and he does seem -- i was thinking about it this morning, he seems much better suited, mark, to take those attacks from romney and actually turn them around against romney. i only say it to say the romney campaign better be careful. because as you know, if you go negative and it back-fires on you, it's over. you melt down and your campaign crashes to the ground. >> yeah. and santorum has been a lot of tough fights before. he's very consistent. he's very focused. and he's also a lunch bucket guy. i mean he's a real blue collar background. which will conform very well to michigan voters up there. so they're going to respond well to santorum and i think he's going to plant his flag there and take it right to romney and it's going to be fascinating to watch over the next two weeks. >> mark, you mentioned the super pacs and you were right. with new pressure from santorum, the pro romney super pac, restore our future is spending $640,000 on ads in the state over the next week. and when it comes to the race on a national level, let's take a look at a new pew research poll showing santorum and romney in a statistical tie. >> it's surreal, mika, this guy was at 2% at a time when everybody said you're supposed to be hitting your stride. >> how much of this is flavor of the month, flavor of the week? we've seen each of these guys, one by one, have their moment in glory and they sort of recede after that how much of this do you think is really staying power? and how much of it is just the moment? >> i think this is different. because with each one of those flavor of the months, you had reasons, i could look at herman cain. i said, aw, shucks, he's fun, but he's a punchline, he's selling books. newt gingrich. we all knew about newt gingrich's flaws. and sarah palin, she's not ready to govern, she studies for four years as we said four years ago, maybe she will four years from now. you can go through each one of them, donald trump, rick perry, you can tell immediately. rick santorum, i think everybody makes a mistake of looking at 2006 when he got killed in pennsylvania. i'm telling you, the ghost of ronald reagan would have lost by 16 points in 2006 after six years in iraq and massive spending. santorum, this is a guy that won in pennsylvania two times. as a hard right republican. you know how hard that is? in pennsylvania, we're not talking -- the guy were from alabama, jeffrey sachs, i would say one thing. pennsylvania is a strange state, most of us, most of the other 49 states are more libertarian. they want less government in their pocket book. they want less government this their bedroom. pennsylvania is a little different. because of the catholic populist flair. actually like a bigger government there. and they don't mind social conservatives like bob casey, for instance. >> i think the arithmetic is there. and that is, that romney never made a break through anywhere. but he had six or seven opponents. now it's getting down to one or two. and if santorum really is the only other, the nonromney, he's really able to garner the votes now. so it is quite different. i mean romney never made a breakthrough in any of the earlier races. so it's kind of amazing. but how is santorum going to play if he gets the nomination and the general election, it's a completely different electorate that he's going to face. >> and this is where i disagree with the conventional wisdom. the conventional wisdom is a guy like rick santorum has said too many crazy things and he's too this and he's too that. i surprised a conservative activist a month or two ago, saying i thought rick santorum would match up better in the general election. than, than any of these other candidates. because he does have the blue collar background. and because at the end of the day, 90% of americans don't obsess on social issues and we've seen with santorum and we saw it this week, remember, david gregory read that part of the book where he said basically, you've got feminists have encouraged women to stay home. nine out of ten candidates would fumble around, santorum explained it away. >> he had no problem with that question. i was fascinated by that question because i've wondered about him and the whole concept of working women and family. but stylistically, which is a part of the game, willie, he has something that mitt romney doesn't. there is a -- i don't agree with anything he says, but i like the guy. >> anything, that's awfully harsh. >> i don't. that's not harsh, i don't. >> rick santorum relates better in the state of michigan, i think it's that chris matthews question. if you're a blue collar working class and look at mitt romney and say no, that guy's not one of us, but you do look at rick santorum to some degree and say, that guy's one of us. to reminder of how fluid the race is, it was two and a half weeks ago on a sunday show that newt gingrich called for rick santorum to get out of the race. said the game's up, look at your poll numbers, i'm the conservative, time to get out rick santorum and now look at the numbers. >> mark mckinnon? >> joe, you make a great point about rick santorum's strength being the appeal to middle class blue collar workers. in many ways it reminds me of 2004, when we got the perfect candidate in john kerry. because he reflected his weaknesses reflected the president's strengths and strategically, he was the perfect foil. but i would argue that howard dean would have been a better candidate against bush because he was strong and bold and had the same strengths. that's a similar situation to what we're seeing here, i think. >> mark, you're exactly right and democrats a lot of times they try to comfort themselves by saying, we're the party of the working class. but if george w. bush is going to relate to blue collar voters in pennsylvania and michigan, than say john kerry. or al gore. or michael dukakis, and barack obama is a little different. because he's obviously much more nimble politically than those guys. but at the same time, he had trouble in these areas against hillary clinton. i think a santorum/obama matchup would be fascinating. you certainly couldn't call him the 1%. >> exactly right. >> the grandson of a coal miner who talked about seeing his granddad, you know, in -- at the funeral and seeing those big hands. and he said, you know, those hands, he won our freedom with those hands. >> that part comes naturally to him. >> it does, i think the reason that santorum seems more real than everybody else, is he hasn't been able to afford focus groups. he hasn't been able to afford pollsters. >> to be cleaned up. >> to be cleaned up. he had to clean himself up in iowa through 99 counties, with, he's run this campaign with absolutely no money. really quickly, before we go to the budget, jeffrey sachs, even though i know you probably disagree with rick santorum on many fronts, it's got to be encouraging to you, as somebody who always talks about money in politics, this even surprises me -- that a guy with absolutely no money could march across iowa, kind of like jimmy carter in '76 and create something of nothing. >> the old-fashioned way. >> the old-fashioned way. >> we'll see, if he -- >> come on, some grudging respect. >> not even grudging respect, there's a lot of stories about pay to play in pennsylvania politics and what he did in the senate and how he favored the lobbies. and so there's going to be a lot of that. >> i'm going to criticize him for the vote in 2004, the medicare drug benefit plan which i think is just absolutely clossly horrible. he was a big earmarks guy, he was a big-government republican. >> absolutely, a lot of trading of favors. but let's just look at candidate a generically and say he's running against a massive money machine. they're throwing money around. it's possible still in 2012 to win elections the old-fashioned way. at least early on. >> i hope so. i hope so in one sense, romney has really been tagged accurately as the 1% and he's suffering for it. >> as you said repeatedly on the show, let's not forget the party doesn't particularly want romney. they want a so-called true conservative. they're grappling, groping, looking all over the place for someone other than romney. and santorum is the last man standing in that respect. i don't know whether he can stand up until the end. i think his positions are really, really conservative. probably too conservative for the general electorate. i think tough on the issues, but great personal story. i think it's a reflection of romney's deficiencies necessarily than it is of santorum's wonderful qualities, but we'll see. >> and wonderful, he had, there were quote marks around the world kws wonderful." >> he has wonderful personal qualities. >> you said you think santorum has the best shot to be president. did you mean outside of mitt romney? or including mitt romney? >> including mitt romney. the problem that romney obviously has, if i'm a democrat, i'm going to take every little thing that he's said i'm going to characterize him as the candidate of the 1%. and also the thing that excites me is that romney's own base, if i'm a democrat running against him, romney's own base is not excited. if you have a base that's excited about your candidate like the republican base would be, mark tell me whether i'm right or not, about rick santorum, than those people go to the telephone banks. those people knock on doors. those people -- and you see it happening when you have a candidate that excites people. they're passing out the bumper stickers at church. here, put this on your car, why is this not on your car? nobody's going to do it for mitt romney, nobody did it for john mccain, nobody did it for bob dole or gerald ford in '76. nobody did it for mitt, but they would do it for santorum. >> that's exactly right. when you look at the successful elections over the last three or four campaigns, it's the enthusiasm gap. it makes the difference. it happened with obama, it happened with george bush in 2004. you see a situation where independents may be floating out. but you crank up the base and get your turn-out up and that's what makes the difference in these elections. >> no doubt about it. so since it's valentine's day, can i, can i have it? >> may i give it to you? >> there you go. >> that's actually only one third of it. >> i'm overwhelmed. >> the know the most exciting thing about that, it means absolutely nothing. >> they're beautiful! >> it's like a piece of chocolate that you eat that dissolves in your mouth and there's no nutritional value. >> i'm holding these papers as if it was 12 long-stemmed roses, thank you very much. >> so we're going it talk about the budget, when we come back. and obviously with dr. sachs and steve ratner, and we're going to be talking to the ranking member of the senate budget committee. senator jeff sessions from alabama. i'm sure he'll tell us how many days it's been since democrats put a budget on the floor. and also senator pat toomey of pennsylvania, eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winner and former u.s. comptroller general david walker. but up next the politico playbook, plus two more bold assassination attempts is escalating tension this morning between israel and iran. but first, here's bill karins with a check of the forecast. >> we're looking pretty quiet today, temperatures have warmed up. remember the arctic blast from this past weekend? gone. temperatures even in new england will be in the upper 40s, including boston. a little bit of issues, light snow that's fallen overnight from chicago to detroit to cleveland. little bit in pittsburgh, there could be some slick spots out there, but with temperatures above freezing, it won't be much of an issue, new york city going to be 47 degrees, the warm air is dominating the winter pattern on this valentine's day, take the umbrella to work with you, around savannah, north florida, and the south carolina areas. light rain moving through. in atlanta, light rain for about the next two hours and then you'll dry out for a decent afternoon. valentine's day forecast, middle of the country looks just fine. the next storm system will be forming and heading across the country. but this will be all rain, a heavy rain event moving through deep south into the southeast and east coast by thursday. once again, no winter storms, the flowers are out in some areas of d.c., ridiculous, you're watching "morning joe." ♪ i am you ♪ you are me i'm jennifer hudson, and i believe. i was strong before weight watchers, but i'm stronger with it. i believe weight watchers can do the same for you. i believe you have more power than you think you do. i believe because it works. ♪ if you want it, you got it your turn. your time. your year. join for free. weight watchers points plus 2012. because it works. ♪ they hatin' ♪ patrolling and tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ [ mom ] hi, there. why do we always have to take your mom's car? [ male announcer ] the security of a tiguan, one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick. ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ time to take look at the morning papers, from the "financial times," moody's has put the uk, france and austria on negative outlook. raising the prospect that all three could lose their aaa rating, due to the eurozone debt crisis. yesterday, moody's downgraded the credit ratings six other euro countries, including italy, spain and portugal. and the "washington post" says tensions are rising between israel and iran after a pair of failed assassination attempts in new delhi, a man on a motorcycle attached a bomb to the car of an israeli diplomat. no one was killed in the attack. there was also i think it's always so cute, when the iranians try to imitate what mossad does, it's a cute, it's cute. kids trying to keep up with the big boys. it didn't work. a foiled bombing also in georgia, israel immediately blamed iran for the attacks. the use of sticky bombs attached to cars by magnets appeared to mirror recent killings of iranian nuclear scientists that tehran blamed on israel. >> from our parade of papers, a headline that sounds like it could be from the "onion." the pioneer press says valentine's day is taking off in baghdad. the capital of iraq is buzzing about the hallmark holiday. the shopping district is flush with teddy bears, heart-shaped pillows and silk nighties. >> we won, we did it! mission accomplished. now put the banner up. now put the banner. and let's, yeah. this is why we were fighting. >> exactly. if you want to give that back? >> here you go. thank you. >> your valentine's present. >> you went heavy there. >> "morning joe" valentine's day message. >> obviously -- mika likes the president's budget. >> i think it's fabulous. wonderful. >> i don't know if it's kiss or kiss off. >> it's a kiss! >> it's the white house, let's bring in some mr. mike allen, the chief white house correspondent of politico, he's got a look at the playbook. >> for mika, happy valentine's day. >> thank you, mike. >> let's talk about the budget, mike, that mika has fallen in love with. president obama unveiling a $3.8 trillion spending plan, $4 trillion in deficit cuts over the next ten years, most coming by way of new tax revenue and savings from the wars in iraq and savings. that includes $350 billion for job creation, $476 for upgrade of the nation's transportation system. 441 billion for r&d and 70% of the proposal comes from mandatory spending, $2.5 trillion. the other 40% comes from discretionary spending. mike, republicans calling this a campaign document. says the other side always does when a president puts out his budget. what was the president going for here? and do you think he will succeed? >> well, if you hold the blue budget book just right, you can see in it, the outline not just of what the president would do if he were re-elected, but also where he plans to get the re-election. where the kisses, the kisses go to college students, where he has additional tax incentives, additional student aid, especially for community college. kisses for the rust belt, the important states, michigan, ohio, pennsylvania, big tax incentives for manufacturers that will help with jobs there. kisses for unions. the biggest new initiatives in here is for spending on roads. other infrastructure that would be thousands of union jobs. and who gets the kiss off? people who make more than $250,000, there's going to be some tax hits there. and for corporate america, new bank taxes and other penalties for the highest earners, that will play well with progressives. and most importantly for romney, for obama, will help make the case against romney within the budget we see the case against the higher earners, that's their exhibit a against mitt romney. >> it sounds so great. doesn't sound like it will get through. >> dr. sachs, the front page of the papers, obama seeks new taxes on rich. that's the headline coming out. what do you make of the budget? >> i think it is a smart budget. as a matter of fact politically and definitely smarter than the alternatives that the republicans are offering. there is absolutely no way to get the government's most core business done without some tax revenues. and if the republicans say nothing on that, even for the rich, i think they've cornered themselves politically in way that the american people absolutely don't support. the truth, however, in this budget is it's a little sad where we are as a country. because the president's proposals are extremely small, modest. they're symbolic, almost in some ways and even then they're being opposed strongly, which is big mistake in my view from the republican side. but what's really going on here is that government programs that we depend on, for education, for job training, for civil works, infrastructure, army corps of engineers, those are really being squeezed year by year right now and that's the real story for this country. we've lost most of the middle class. things that we need, for instance to get back in quality education, raising the numbers of people going through college, the president has small, good programs here. pu they're small. they can't do the job really. and the basic thing that's going on, which is the hidel number of our real reality, is that everything that's the nonmilitary side of things, is being cut sharply over a ten-year period on the budget agreement that was made last year. >> you're talking mandatory? you're talking about the discretionary? >> 30% that's discretionary. >> in 2011, we spent about 3.1% on the nonsecurity part of the discretionary budget, so-called. and that's going down to 1.8%. >> so steve rattner, i want you to look at this chart. 70% mandatory, that's medicare, medicaid, social security, interest on the debt. and this is the story of our lifetime, unless congress and the president start showing courage. the mandatory, basically social security medicare, medicaid, interest on the debt, is going to keep expanding. put that chart back up, please, for a second. the 30%, the things that jeffrey is talking about, education, job training, r&d, the infrastructure, the things that we consider government, that's going to keep shrinking. and unless washington starts showing some courage. >> let jeffrey go first, i mean steve. >> that is true and actually we have charts that go into that in a little bit. the other thing to remember is the difference between this budget and what the republicans are talking about is a different vision for america in the sense that the republican vision of america is much lower taxes and much lower spending on everything. what obama was trying to do in part was i think stake out a different vision, which is i'm willing to increase taxes on the rich. go beyond the bush tax cuts, make at least some room for the infrastructure program for some more spending on education and so forth. it's a terrible problem, what you're talking about and there's no doubt about it that that spending is squeezing out everything. but i think you see in this budget document in what both romney and santorum are giving speeches in front of the detroit economic club and they're going to lay out their vision. >> jeffrey, you two obviously have the democratic view that investment in education is being squeezed out by a lack of tax increases. >> job draining, infrastructure. >> all of those things, i look at the deficit, i look at the long-term debt. i look at this budget and what i see is what i think is obvious, but you may not, that mandatory spending is going to continue to explode. discretionary spending in all of these important areas is going to continue to shrink. and because the white house doesn't have the courage and democrats don't have the courage to take on those huge programs and slow down the rate of growth, which by the way would send a signal to the markets that would allow us to spend more on the discretionary side. that's not happening. >> i would, i hope everyone would take a look for themselves. you go omb.gov and get to the budget. and the most important table for people to become familiar with in this country, in my view, is table 6, s-6. proposed budget -- >> you just put america to sleep. >> no, he didn't. >> s-6. >> it's the table s-6. it's how much we're actually spending as a share of our national income. and the point is, it's not quite when you're saying joe. if you take medicare in 2011 and compare it with medicare in 20020, as a share of gdp, what do you think happens? >> it may go up slightly. >> do you think it's going up? >> yes. >> it's 3.2% of gdp in 2011. 3.3% of gdp in 20020. there is no explosion of medicare spending. >> wait a minute, wait a minute. jeffrey, come on, you are talking witchcraft. jeffrey, jeffrey -- please, stop. you're embarrassing yourself. i can, we can bring in every economic expert over the next generation to show that medicare and medicaid explode, and in fact consume most of our budget, why are you trying to make an argument that you know is just not the reality. >> i'm reading numbers from -- >> jeffrey. >> i can bring you a lot more statistics that show that's just -- okay, i'll turn the floor over to you, jeffrey. i'm going to ask you a question. and don't show me the president's numbs. i'm curious about what you know as an economist. >> yes. >> are you telling me today, that we can just leave medicare and medicaid alone and it doesn't cause a problem over the next generation? >> what i'm telling you is that what you think is the exploding part of the number -- >> not what i think. >> yes. >> not what i think, what everybody who studied this thinks. >> what you think. >> i'm asking you a simple question. i want to hear jeffrey sachs, economist at columbia, a guy that is friends with bono, hangs out with the stars and does great work across the globe. the revered jeffrey sachs, are you here telling me that you don't think medicare and medicaid cause the biggest long-term challenge to our national debt. >> define long-term? >> 30 years. >> 30 years, if you extrapolate that health care costs continue to rise for 30 years, then you get very big numbers, 30 years from now, absolutely. >> thank you. >> if you look at what's happening in this decade right now with our real spending, it's not what you're saying. >> you've already had the share of medicare, medicaid, social security double over the last 30 or 40 years. >> let's talk real numbers. >> yes, right here. medicare, 3.2% of gdp, do you think if you think the president is making up these numbers, let's get the white house to underscore -- >> you've got one document there. i've seen billions of documents. steve, what do you have on this? do you have the president's numbers? >> 2011-2020. >> i have a chart showing entitlements growing from 20 some odd percent to 45%. >> as a share of national income. >> oh my goodness. >> this going to get exciting. >> mike allen -- >> mike, are you okay? >> mike, go ahead. >> no, i was -- >> you started all this. >> i did. that -- that table which you take it out, even people in the white house would not claim that there isn't this coming explosion. they're just saying that we can't afford to deal with it now. but even the folks in the white house who design table s-6 i believe and i think we're crashing the omb servers right now. but they would not make the claim that this doesn't have to be dealt with. they just are saying not on our watch or not this year. the big question, one of the biggest questions for the president in the year ahead is if you're re-elected, 2013, would you deal with the problems that joe has outlined. they have not answered that. they deflected. if he were to say yes, it would take away one of the republican's biggest arguments, if the president were to em brars bowles-simpson. the republicans would tell you they would have little to run on. >> this is just getting started on our very special valentine's day edition of "morning joe." >> this is nice, we've got something new here. it's usually me against the table. it's jeffrey this morning. jeffrey, i hope those numbers are right. because -- >> i hope so, too. >> we can all go to greece and hang out. >> mike allen, thanks for the best valentine's day ever. more "morning joe" progresso. it fits! fantastic! 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[ male announcer ] good choice business pro. good choice. go national. go like a pro. welcome back to "morning joe," time for a quick palate cleanser. it is valentine's day after all. we need to talk about linsanity. linsanity resumes tonight with a bit of a twist. the back page of the "new york post" -- valentine's gift. >> what's on the front of the "new york post." >> oh, dear, hadn't noticed. >> the "daily news," i heart jeremy, that comes from carmelo anthony. >> jeremy lin came out of nowhere to win the starring job for the knicks, they've won five games in a row. over those games, lin has averaged 27 points, eight assists, four rebounds, 51% from the floor. and new york has been without its superstars, amar'e stoudemire and carmelo anthony. carmelo will be back at thend of the week. everybody wants to know can they co-existent with the new star, jeremy lin, on the court. can they? >> let's hear what carmelo had to say. i no he there are questions about can i fit in. but this is a dream come true. it takes pressure off of me. i don't have to get amar'e 20 points, i don't have to go out and get 25-30 points a night. play defense, do the whole thing. amar'e stoudemire saying the only positive this week. he was home mourning the death of his brother was watching basketball. we were watching linsanity, my family was getting a kick out of it. that was from amar'e stoudemire and stephen colbert even excited. >> linsanity continues. >> it's essentially become linsanity. >> basketball fans have a rage case of linsanity. >> i've got a raging case of linsanity. i have been declared legally lin-sane. my symptoms? lin-somnia. restless lin syndrome and lintetstinal blockage. fans have not come down with a basketball-borne disease this intense since the outbreak of kareem abdul-jabbar botulism. >> we'll see if the knicks can play altogether tonight. my good friend, chuck todd, you no he how he loves new york city more than anything. chuck, he just tweeted this, leave it to chuck to rain on parade. what if zwrarmy lin was a warrior playing the game? >> he hates, he so hates new york. more than chuck todd. >> i don't understand we're the center of the universe. really? i mean everything starts. >> we have weather events. >> why is he so bitter? >> it's all-consuming for him. it's a wonder he can get out of bed in the morning. >> we've got times square. >> i don't know how he gets through the day. >> why does he hate the syndrome? >> coming up, the battle of the economic charts. steve rattner -- >> this is going to be great. >> this is left-on-left crime. >> we'll pick it up where we left off. 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[ male announcer ] the new capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? sorry i'll clean this up. shouldn't have made it rain. in what passes for common sense. used to be we socked money away and expected it to grow. then the world changed... and the common sense of retirement planning became anything but common. fortunately, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. take control by opening a new account or rolling over an old 401(k) today, and we'll throw in up to $600. how's that for common sense? welcome back to "morning joe," a beautiful shot. of washington, d.c., let's go over to willie geist. they say there's nothing sadder than when a democrat fights a democrat. >> it's just -- >> it hurts. >> the ghost of lbj and fdr weep a little bit, right? >> we don't want to see these left-on-left crimes. >> it's not going to happen. >> why don't we start this, why don't you manage this. >> let's turn it over to steve rattner, he's come, we've seen jeffrey's numbers from the white house. now let's listen to steve rattner's numbers. >> we'll take a different crack on things. first we're focused on cutting the long-term deficit. let's not lose sight on the effect of short-term deficit reduction on the economy. the first chart is something that economists call fiscal drag. which is how much of an effect the fiscal government is having on the economy. back if 2009 when we had the stimulus, the budget was actually helping the economy recover from the recession. but as the budget deficit has started to come down and absent some of the president's proposals, the deficit would continue to come down, you get into what you call fiscal drag. where the budget is duly holding back the economy, rather than increasing it. these are not trivial numbers. >> how is that, explain that. why is that? >> the government is spending less money, hiring less people. government workforces have been dropping. all of that is a drag on the economy. >> you're saying we need to spend more money? >> we need to be careful how quickly we cut spending. if we cut it too quickly, it will slow down the recovery. every 1% of less government gdp is is a million jobs. >> steve, when did the laws of economics kick in and $1.3 trillion deficits start to matter? >> you know what i mean? we've always, you know, we've grown up hearing that big did he have sets, big debt increases interest rates. i've been warning about that since 1994. that hasn't happened yet. why not? >> it hasn't happened yet for a whole series of reasons. >> by the way you warned about this in 2004. i know that because i went back reading my books as i do every weekend. i actually quoted you in 2004 in a "new york times" article saying if we keep this deficit spending up, inflation will explode. >> we weren't assuming the financial meltdown. we weren't assuming that the u.s. would be the last haven of securities and a whole lot of other things. can i just turn back to the deficit for the moment. if you look at what the president proposed yesterday, he's looking at this famous $1.3 trillion. >> you like how steve told me to get out of the way. >> it was so polite. >> instead, let's look at the $1.3 trillion of deficit for this year. and the president's proposal would increase the deficit next year from what he talked about last time. so what you see, are deficits pretty much as far as the eye can see. gotten a little bit worse since the last time the president did this. partly because he wants to extend the payroll tax cut and do some other stuff. partly because of the economic projections are not quite as good, although very recently we've had even better news. we're looking at long-term deficits. >> let's go to the main card now. entitlement percentages, spending, percentage of federal spending. >> if you look at entitlements, just social security, medicare and medicaid, it started down in the mid 20s, back in 1972. and it's already at about 42 or 43% at the moment. which you can see right here. and then it's, under the president's budget it would go up to 54%, if we don't do something. and this is the point that joe likes to make and that pointly i don't disagree with, dr. sachs can disagree with, but essentially it is crowding out stuff. we can see this clearly, if you look at the latest budget that the president up and you look at the proposed changes in spending from last year to this year. you'll see that the president is talking about an overall increase of almost exactly zero in total federal spending, 0.2%. but entitlements are going up 8%. because these are mandated, these are in the law, these are going to happen. so this gets to the crowding out. it means that everything else has to go down 4.4%. it's just math. it has to add up. >> if people at home that aren't in other words, that don't study these numbers, again, just to underline the fact the entitlements chart, that social security, medicare, medicaid, the discretionary spending, that's what you consider government. which is, which is education. r&d research, transportation, the military. >> the justice department, the department of agriculture, all that stuff. so what's happening is the entitlements programs are gradually squeezing that stuff out. >> so jeffrey, you guys looked at the same budget and came away with two very different conclusions. can you help -- help bring these two -- >> is there anything that you counter with here? >> the discretionary part of the budget that is going down. it's worrisome because we need that to be a competitive economy and it's cut significantly as a share of national income. that's why the percent is going down. what is is not happening in the president's proposed budget is an explosion of entitlements as a share of national income between now and 2020. that's the only point. he's not proposing a large increase, he's proposing actually and that's where i'd like people to look at the numbers, a flat line, 13.9% entitlements so-called or mandatory in 2011. 14.0 in, that's his proposal, in 2020. it's not increasing. >> all right. steve. but the fact -- >> that's the proposal. >> the fact that entitlement spending as a share is growing, growing. >> as a share of total -- >> discretionary -- >> going down. >> the discretion is going down because the other stuff is going up and squeezing out the other kinds of spending that some of us view as very important spending. infrastructure, r&d, education and the like and that is why whether it's before or after this election, we have to address the entitlement problem. >> we'll be right back. >> i think where we're going is we've got to address entitlements, we've got to address tax reform, we've got to address the military budget and this is what washington is incapable of doing right now because democrats speak one language and republicans speak another and sometimes democrats speak different languages, it makes me sad. >> we'll be back with news you can use. >> look at that chart! i have copd. if you have it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and what that feels like. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva helps control my copd symptoms... by keeping my airways open a full 24 hours. plus, it reduces copd flare-ups. spiriva is the only once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that does both. and it's steroid-free. spiriva does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. does breathing with copd weigh you down? 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[ female announcer ] join for free today. weight watchers online. finally, losing weight clicks. so, granted, budget important document. it came out yesterday. there was another important document that came out, do we have the chart. i think it's s-6? very good. no, i'm sorry. >> hold on one second. let's look at the trend lines, willie. i -- i think positive. >> we'll get steve rattner's version, when we come back. senator pat toomey, gene robinson and dave walker, when "morning joe" continues. [ woman speaking indistinctly over radio ] home protector plus from liberty mutual insurance... 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[ male announcer ] the security of a tiguan, one of nine volkswagen models named a 2012 iihs top safety pick. ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ there's another way to minimize litter box odor: purina tidy cats. tidy cats premium line of litters now works harder to help neutralize odors in multiple-cat homes. and our improved formula also helps eliminate dust. so it's easier than ever to keep your house smelling just the way you want it. purina tidy cats. keep your home smelling like home. the show is on hiatus last week. in observance of yom martin luther king jr. easter. it's one of many long religious festivals i've had engineered into my schedule since i converted to orthodox owning a sailboatism. and there was lots of news over my break. most of it bad for handsome millionaires from massachusetts. yes -- my very own new york giants won me a whole mess of super bowl! woo! woo! and the city has been celebrating hard. last week new york threw the champions a ticker tape parade down the canyon of heroes! iraq war vets, we will get to you eventually. >> hey, welcome back to "morning joe." what a table we have here. this is like, us sitting in the back of accounting class. all the smart in other words up front and us just sitting quietly doodling in the back. drawing pictures. >> i don't think you took accounting class, somehow. >> dr. jeffrey sachs and steve rattner are still with us, along with mark mckinnon in washington. >> i think he was a liberal arts guy, just a wild guess. >> absolutely. >> and the founder and ceo of comeback america initiative, david walker. you did a little bit of work in washington, d.c. on this stuff for many years. and also in washington, pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" and mrs. nbc political analyst, eugene robinson. mark, you've heard about this debate about entitlements and the budget and discretionary, mandatory. this really does matter a great deal to how america moves forward over the next generation. >> absolutely. but the real issue -- >> do americans care? is there any way for a politician, other than ross perot in '92, to make americans focus on these issues? >> they want congress to do their squljob. and the fact is that the president's own party is not going to pass this budget. they're not going to pass any budget. the senate hasn't passed a budget in over three years, 1,000 days, and it labels with the good work of david walker, we've been pushing this idea of no budget, no pay if they don't pass a budget, they don't get paid. it's got a lot of traction, got a hearing coming up and the american people are demanding that congress do its job. >> on the issue, mark, if you had a republican or a democratic presidential candidate asking for your help, or an independent, i think, you know what they said, i want to talk about deficit spending, i want to talk about mandatory versus discretionary spending. you would sit there and laugh at them, wouldn't you? >> it's -- >> why don't you pick a side of the hhs issue and run with it. >> joe, i take a little bit of a different view. i think that voters are prepared to hear the truth these days. i think they're sick of the game that's been going on. they're ready for some hard truths. if somebody would step up and actually tell the people -- everybody knows what has to happen. the american voters aren't fools. they know that what needs to happen and they know it's become a hyperpartisan game between the parties, drawing lines in the sand. putting off all our problems. i think they're prepared for a little truth-telling. >> gene robinson, before we get to the details in the president's budget, i ask you the same thing, can a republican or a democrat or an independent grab the attention of americans like perot did in '92, by talking about deficits, by talking about debt. by talking about how we save this country? it's what matters to me the most. but a lot of people just don't seem to be focused. >> well, i don't think it's going to happen this cycle, to tell you the truth, joe. now granted, i didn't pay attention in accounting class, either. >> good for you. >> liberal arts guy all the way. but no, i mean we've had the last few years, of the president and congress going back and forth and everybody says, well, it's obvious what we need to do. but it doesn't get done. it's certainly not going to get done in the months before the election. and frankly, i don't think that sort of big picture, you know, feature rhetorically in the presidential campaign. but only rhetorically. as sort of a distant dream. that's my prediction at least. and then maybe when we get past the election, there will be a window of opportunity, lasting a year or so, to actually get a deal done. >> so it seems to me, though, and we can debate whether we agree with this, that lawmakers are not recognizing the moment that we live in. because we've just come off generations of people who have lived off money they don't have. and who have gotten burned by it. and i think now more than ever, they want people to balance the books. not just in their own households, but running the country. having said that, president obama's new budget proposal will likely never see a vote on kplil capitol hill. but it sets the stage for an election-year battle that over the same issues that have divided washington for years. the record $3.8 trillion spending plan outlines the president's push for economic growth, including new investment in education and infrastructure. while calling on the wealthiest americans to share more of the burden. >> right now, we're scheduled to spend nearly $1 trillion more on what was intended to be a temporary tax cut for the wealthiest 2% of americans. do we want to keep these tax cuts for the wealthy americans or do we want to keep investing in everything else? education, energy, a strong military, care for our veterans? we can't do both. we can't afford it. some people go around and say the president is engaging in class warfare. that's not class warfare, that's common sense. that's common sense. >> you know, i'm sorry, i hear the president talking about the bush tax cuts, which he extended, back the the end of 2010. and then he acted like he extended it because the republicans were threatening them. people inside the white house were saying they had to extend them. because the economy was doing poorly. they were keynsian and the tax cuts are a keynsian device. now the president is acting shocked that the tax cuts have been extended? he extended them. >> it's an election year. the fact of the matter is at least the congress, at least the president is discharging his statutory responsibility to come up with a budget. it's dead on arrival. just like last year. it was dead on arrival. but at least he's laying out a framework. >> he wants to raise taxes on the rich. >> he's responsible to put it out, he's putting it out. >> first, i compliment him from the standpoint he put it out. secondly, he recognizes the difference between the short-term and the structural. we do need some targeted investments. but those targeted investments need to be coupled with a credible concrete enforceable plan to deal with the structural deficits. he's right we need to focus on debt-to-gdp. that's the real measure to focus on. on the other side of the coin, he a uses creative accounting. the fact of the matter is there's not enough specific reforms with regard to health care, social security is not on the table. we need comprehensive tax reform. we need to recapture all of those revenues, but through fundamental tax reform. >> let me get you in the middle of the debate we had last hour. steve looked at the budget and jeffrey looked at the budget and they came up with two very different conclusions on entitlements spending. on medicare. what's your take on that? >> first, you have to look at total so-called mandatory spending in english, what's on auto pilot. total mandatory spending, which includes entitlements, interest on the debt and a variety of other issues, go from 62% of the budget this year to 78% in 2022. all right? fastest-growing expense? interest. up 8.6%. if you will. of gdp. the fact of the matter is, who would have a budget that only controls 22% of spending? we need to recapture control of the federal budget. everything ought to have an annual limit other than two things. number one, social security. because we don't have to, we can reform it, we can make the numbers work, we don't have to. secondly, interest, because you got to pay what you got to pay. we have to develop a plan that will end up reforming the social insurance contract. reducing defense and other spending, engaging in comprehensive tax reform. >> you say the mandatory spending goes from 62%. >> to 78%. >> since 20, in 2022. >> in 12 years. >> does that sound accurate to you, jeffrey? >> i don't know if i, suppose it is. and the reason is, that we're cutting sharply, the discretionary spending. which is pretty devastating for the country. and that, i think we all agree on that point. >> no, we're not. >> it's the other way around. we're not cutting discretionary spending. >> we're not severely cutting discretionary spending, it's being squeezed out over time. but it's not a severe cut. >> as a share of rising population and a rising economy, it's going down to levels that are unmanageably low. it's going from right now, 3.1% of national income to below 2%, in 2020. and that means that you're -- >> it's crowded out and it was being crowded out in the same numbers that you just heard right now up to 78%, were numbers five years ago were the case. >> zbrjoe, i think this is actuy not even the point right now. the real point is why is the budget dead on arrival. it's dead on arrival because the republican side says no to any tax increases at all. and -- >> and because the democratic side -- >> joe, let me finish. >>, no, no. >> all right. excuse me. >> the democratic side says no to any entitlement reform. and you were sitting here trying to tell us that entitlements don't need to be reformed, that is about, i believe, as irresponsible as republicans saying the tax code doesn't need to be reformed. >> is that what you're saying? >> no, of course not. >> i didn't say that at all. and i've said with you for years, that our health care system is twice too expensive. and that is a huge problem in this country. we spend 17% of our national income on health care. where as other economies that are getting better health care are spending 10% of gnp. so joe, we have an overpriced health care system. we all agree on that. that needs real reform. >> that's what the president did for a year and a half. >> no, he didn't. >> what was that exercise? >> that exercise, both sides, were pandering to the private health insurance lobbies. that resisted real cuts, in the costs of health care. that's what happened. >> so, steve, is the problem that republicans won't raise taxes? is that why we're at this impasse? >> it's part of the problem. the fact is when you draw a line and say i'm not going to compromise, i'm not going to do that. it does make having a budget more difficult. let me go back to something that mark mckinnon said. people don't want to cut medicare. if those folks who say they want to deal with the budget don't want to touch medicare, how do you get this problem solved? >> i think people are more ready than they'll ever be. dave walker? >> i've been to 49 states, town hall meetings, college campuses, business community leaders, editorial boards, local media. the american people are ahead of the politicians, they understand that we're on an unsustainable path. they're starved for three things -- truth, leadership and solutions. and i totally disagree that that wouldn't resonate. we are in much worse shape today than we were in 1992. ross perot ran on fiscal irresponsibility. political dysfunctionality, declining trust in government, declining confidence in the future, other than nafta. we're demonstrably worse off and losing ground. but here's the key, let's raise it up, governments grow too big, promised too much, and waited too long to restructure. the government is losing control because more and more is on auto pilot. the part that's on auto pilot is not in the constitution. the express and enumerated responsibilities for the federal government are discretionary spending. by the way, jeffrey's right that they also represent the investments in our future. what's happening is government is getting too big, it's doing something that were not expressed and enumerated in the constitution, more and more is on auto pilot, less and less for investment. more and more for consumption. we're headed for disaster. >> gene, let's talk about the president's presentation of the budget. does the white house believe and do you believe that they're in a pretty good place right now? delivering a budget that they're going to -- again, it's dead on arrival like everybody says here, there's never going to be a vote on it democrats aren't going to want vote on it. the last time they voted on a president's budget. it got zero votes in the senate. boy, the senate sure is responsible, aren't they, when it comes to budgeting. does this not put the president in a good position to say, let's go after that 1%? >> politically, i think it's a good move for the president. the budget sets out priorities that i think most of the democratic base and frankly most independents will agree with. i think this is kind of a no-cost budget for him, just in political terms. the fact, as david says, this will resonate with people if someone really talks about austerity and the need to totally restructure. the way government provides services and who it provides services to. i share steve rattner's skepticism that people are really ready for that. people depend on government. people are hurting, these are tough times. and i don't think that talking about you know, taking away this benefit or taking away that benefit is really going to get a lot of traction in this election cycle. >> the thing is, though, gene, it excites me. but then again, so do zero-zero draws and european football. so maybe i'm not the guy mark mckinnon, to talk to about this. it seems to be, mark, the right candidate doing it really good resonate with the american people. i go back to the poll that we always show. 70% of tea party members tell pollsters, i just love this, get the government off my back. and yet, the biggest program, medicare, don't touch my medicare! and by the way, i use that for liberals, too. it is the most absurd world view that i don't want the federal government in my life, but give me medicare. >> i want what i want. >> i don't want it reformed. >> welcome to america. >> joe, that's right. but they don't represent the better of majority of americans. to steve's point earlier, you asked americans, what percentage would support a combination of tax increases and entitlement reforms, more than three-quarters of the country supports that. because everybody knows that's what we have to do. and somebody stepping forward and saying what's obvious, what all the voters know, would absolutely resonate. can you could do that kind of a message by saying that's what we need to do to embrace the future. it could be a future-oriented optimistic message, it doesn't have to be an eat-your-peas message. >> what's so fascinating here is, i think most people that know how washington works know the bigger the deal, the more breathtaking the deal, the more dangerous politically the deal, not only in tax reform, but also on entitlement reform, the more likely the american people will accept it. but if you just do a little bit here and a little bit there, they're going to swat you away. it's got to be a big, bold vision and certainly, the president isn't going to step forward with that. and i don't think the republicans will, either. paul ryan did in his own way, and boy, he got absolutely slaughtered. by newt gingrich. >> remember the middle of last year, when the president was saying, you know, just, it's just as hard to make a little deal as a big deal. so we, let's make a $4.5 trillion deal, john boehner. and thought that they had one. and it turned out that boehner couldn't deliver the house republicans. but you know, there are, let me just repeat, there are a lot of people out there right now who are saying, this is fine in the abstract. but i can't afford to pay more for my health care right now. i can't afford to pay more into social security or to get less out of it. i can't afford it. >> final thoughts, jeffrey? >> mark mckinnon is right, the public wants tax increases on the rich and they want health care costs coming down and the president is better positioned on that with these modest steps than republican side that says no on the taxes and so i think politically, this is an effective document that is cornering the republicans on a more extreme position. >> the ryan plan didn't have additional revenues, we need renegotiate the social insurance contract. we need comprehensive tax reform that will generate more revenues, it's about three to one spending to revenues. >> the public has not focused on the details of ryan's medicare plan. when it does, it's not going to be a good day for its proponents. >> eugene robinson, thank you so much for being with us. and thank you for -- you know, it's good to have at least one other liberal arts guy around. right? >> just one. >> absolutely. >> well mark mckinnon, you were a liberal arts guy, too, right? >> absolutely. >> how could i have guessed that, hippie. >> i took poetry and painting. >> poetry and painting, and it looks it, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. coming up next, senator pat toomey of pennsylvania, is here. he's going to have a different view on the president's budget proposal than jeffrey sachs. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. ♪ [ male announcer ] for our families... our neighbors... and our communities... america's beverage companies have created a wide range of new choices. developing smaller portion sizes and more low- & no-calorie beverages... adding clear calorie labels so you know exactly what you're choosing... and in schools, replacing full-calorie soft drinks with lower-calorie options. with more choices and fewer calories, america's beverage companies are delivering. all right. welcome back to "morning joe," 24 past the hour. let's bring in nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of the daily rundown, chuck todd. chuck, happy valentine's day. >> that was very nice to you, happy valentine's day to you, mika. >> did you see what i got for valentine's day? >> i have not yet. when i'm doing the outdoor shots, what did you get? >> i'm holding it up. it's the budget! >> you no he what, we were just doing a little thickness check in the booth because of course we are our 2012 budget in the white house booth, we keep track of all of these things. it appears at least the appendix for 2013, is a little bit thicker than the appendix for 2012, so i guess that's our measurement of whether government grew. >> i thought we a table of geeks. okay. let's go to the white house press booth. that's pretty good. let's go through first of all the main points of the budget because we've launched into every show, debating it. the president is trying to strike a balance here, is he not? >> i think that was the attempt. i think it's sort of what he's emphasizing. and you know, the whole point that he's pushing is, and they're making the gamble that what the country is focused on is more on the economy. so he wants to talk up ways to address economic growth, faster, some of it even, smells a little bit like stimulus, if you will. and you know, that became a dirty word on the republican side of the aisle. but if you look at some of the program, even just speeding up transportation, construction, things like that that clearly seems to be the attempt. what i thought was left a little bit to be desired was the whole focus on the taxes, right? they talk about these broad principles. on tax reform, including the buffett rule, which they don't put a number to it. then they talk about getting rid of the bush tax cuts. when you ask them, you start asking them about the whole tax thing. they're saying we assume overall tax reform may end up lowering rates. but what was the tax rate they assumed in the budget, they assumed the old clinton rates, nothing wrong with that, except that isn't the proposal that's likely to come up. the question was, why aren't you doing income tax, individual tax reform and they're not going to right now, but they are going to roll out corporate tax reform. and we know why, the politics of that is a heck of a lot more pleasing to them for 2012 than dealing with the politics of individual tax reform. >> joining us from capitol hill, we have republican senator from pennsylvania and member of the senate budget committee, you'll be releasing your own budget, senator pat toomey. you call the president's budget, senator, a failure of leadership. why? >> well, mika, it seems to me there's two big priorities that the budget ought to address. number one is policies that maximize economic growth because we still have a very weak economy. and number two, putting us on a sustainable fiscal path, because we are not on one now and we court great danger if we continue down this path. the president fails on both counts. huge spending increases and even bigger deficit next year than last year does not solve the long-term debt problem. the tax increases would slow down economic growth and he doesn't even address the biggest driver in our long-term deficit problem, which he has admitted is government health care spending, doesn't even address it in a meaningful, serious way. this is complete abdication of leadership. >> i'm going to follow up and chuck todd, feel free to jump in anyone here at the table as well. how would the tax increases he's talking about, applying the buffett rule, slow down economic growth? >> he's taken the exact opposite approach of that of every commission that's looked at tax reform. what every bipartisan group has said we ought to do is simplify the code, broaden the base on which tax rates are applied, but apply lower tax rates, because that encourages economic growth. what he's doing is he's calling for the rates to go higher. the second thing that's very damaging, is to layer all of this tax that he wants to layer on investment. on capital gains and dividends. as an owner of a business, your business pays tax, the corporate income tax that can be as high as 35% and then the president wants any dividend that's paid to that owner to be then taxed at an additional rate of up to 40%. a combined 75% tax on investment that's going to drive capital overseas and prevent investment in america, it's terrible economic policy. >> chuck todd? >> senator toomey, six months ago you had a chance to strike a big deal with the president. the president was talking about doing things on social security and medicare and medicaid that no democratic president had ever talked about in the modern era since the creation of medicare. and you know, there was seemed to be some agreement on talking about tax reform and the way you talked about it, which was lowering rates, but possibly bringing in a little more revenue, depending 0en what parts of the tax code were eliminated there was the shot there, and then everybody walked away. why did you walk away? >> well i didn't walk away. i served on the supercommittee. on the supercommittee we heard a lot of talk from our colleagues on the other side, as well as the president, that they were willing to look at the entitlement programs, they were willing to have the discussion. it was a willingness for them it talk. but there was never a willingness to put a specific proposal on the table. i did put a proposal on the table. that reformed taxes, that simplified the code and lowered marginal rates and lowered general revenue. something i don't think we ought to do, but i was willing to do it in order to get some kind of progress on the entitlement side. and in fact, the democrats showed an initial interest and then they walked away. it just very, very dispointing and the president is showing he has no intention of dealing with these really, the defining challenge of our time. >> dave walker? >> senator, clearly the biggest problem is spending and clearly we need to significantly reduce spending on a going-forward basis. which involves social insurance reforms, defense and other spending reductions, et cetera. but we're also going to need more revenues. my question is will you and your party support comprehensive tax reform that broadens the base, that lowers rates, but that will generate more revenues as a percentage of gdp than the historical average of 18.4%? because i can tell you the math doesn't work otherwise. >> well, first of all, my preference would be to have a smaller government where we could get by with 18.5, our historical level. but i acknowledge, given the dem dwrasks and given where we are politically, very tough to get there. let's have the simplification and reform the code. that might very well produce higher than 18.5% gdp revenue. i've never said if it does, suddenly we have to toss that. let's get the code right, and let's get the structure right. let's make it maximize economic growth. and you know, we might find that it generate more revenue than 18.5%. >> follow-up. the senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1,000 days. are we going get one this year? and if not, will the republicans on the senate budget committee offer their own proposal? >> republicans will be voting on a budget that republicans support. i can promise you that. it may be the house republican budget, it may be our own budget, we may have several budgets as we did last year. you don't have to agree with everything that's in the republican budget, obviously but you have to acknowledge that one party in this town actually produced a budget that they believe in, that they were willing to stand for. the democrats have absolutely refused. and harry reid so far has said this will be another year where they will ignore their statutory obligation and an obligation based on decency, to do a budget. so i hope harry will change his mind. but there's no evidence of that so far. >> all right, senator pat toomey, thank you so much. chuck todd, before you go, the headline when you read about the president's budget that he produced yesterday, is that it won't go through. and then you hear all of these other budgets being talked about. what are we to make of where this is going to end up? >> here's the thing, the presidential election is going to decide i think the big question, which is who is going it bear a greater responsibility for dealing with the national debt. wealthy americans, wealthy taxpayers, or government itself. and november is going to make that decision. and then all of a sudden we're going to have a mad scramble because here's why -- the bush tax cuts, those bush tax cuts that democrats have been trying to get rid of for eight years, they expire at the end of this year. obviously if the president wins re-election and democrats hold the senate in particular, that's going to be the one type of leverage that they may have to do the tax code and the way they envision it if the president doesn't win re-election or if he does, but it's a republican senate, that's another. but we're going to have a mad six-week scramble on dealing with the butch tark cuts, just like we did at the end of 2010 because there's no way either party has the stomach to actually deal with this looming issue, because by the way, they do nothing, tachs go up on everybody and by the way, it actually would bring down the long-term deficit discussion. but that's a whole another case, because nobody wants the middle class portion of the bush tax cuts to go up. but that's what we're dealing with. which is nothing rhetoric until november and then a mad scramble until the end of the year. >> chuck todd, thank you so much. coming up, a sitting supreme court justice robbed at machete point inside his caribbean vacation home. we'll have the details on that next on "morning joe." [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation, so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. in what passes for common sense. used to be we socked money away and expected it to grow. then the world changed... and the common sense of retirement planning became anything but common. fortunately, td ameritrade's investment consultants can help you build a plan that fits your life. take control by opening a new account or rolling over an old 401(k) today, and we'll throw in up to $600. how's that for common sense? 37 past the hour. the fbi is helping local police in the west indies after supreme court justice, steven breyer was robbed by a man with a machete. it happened on the caribbean island of nevis where the 73-year-old owns a vacation home. official says the suspect entered breyer's house, where he took $1,000 from the justice, his wife and their house guests. no one was hurt and so far there have been no arrests. breyer isn't the only justice it see crime up close, in 1996 justice ruth bader ginsberg had her purse snatched while walking in washington. and in 2004, justice david souter was assault while jogging. it's not clear what protection breyer maid may have had at his vacation home. but according to bloomberg news, justices often go without security at their private homes. >> nevis a well-known resort. a four seasons resort there. >> up next, obama explained, we'll bring in "the atlantic" james bennett and jim fallowes, on the new cover story. keep it right here on "morning joe." today is gonna be an important day for us. you ready? we wanna be our brother's keeper. what's number two we wanna do? bring it up to 90 decatherms. how bout ya, joe? let's go ahead and bring it online. attention on site, attention on site. now starting unit nine. some of the world's cleanest gas turbines are now powering some of america's biggest cities. siemens. answers. dave, i've downloaded a virus. yeah. ♪ dave, where are we on the new laptop? it's so slow! i'm calling dave. [ telephone rings ] [ sighs ] i need a new i.t. guy. [ male announcer ] in a small business, technology is all you. staples easy tech experts are here to help. you must be... ...dave. [ male announcer ] with everything from new computers, to set-ups, to tune-ups. stapes. that was easy. we know that doing big things isn't easy. but you haven't given up. that's the spirit we've got to have right now. we don't give up in this country. we look out for each other, we pull together. we work hard. we reach for new opportunities, we pull each other up. that's who we are and if we work together on a common purpose, we will build an economy that lasts and remind people around the world why america is the greatest country on earth. >> welcome back to "morning joe." this is exciting, because, james bennett and james fellows, talking about obama, and then mika opens up the table of contents and sees how your cat is making you crazy. and that's all she wants to talk about. >> listen to this, could tiny organisms carried by house cats be et getting into our brains, causing everything from car wrecks to schizophrenia. a biologist science-fiction hunch is gaining traction in mind-controlling parasites. >> mika wants it talk about cats making you crazy. we've got dave walker over here wanting to talk about a story you wrote years ago, james, predicting an independent president. think this is going to be a very rocky ride. fascinating, we were talking before, you did write an article, long time ago, predicting a 2008 economic crash and a 2016 election of an independent candidate. >> this is back in 2005, a cover story for the "atlantic" i did this sort of science fiction scenario of the first independent president in 2016 after the big financial crash of 2008. so you were ahead of the time in "the atlantic" and the frustrations of the normal party in trying to deal with a financial disorder. >> it seems to be playing out. let's talk about -- >> here's the question. >> before we talk about cats, let's talk about your cover story on the president. everybody projecting on the president as he once said they did. is the president a chess master or a pawn? explain? >> the explanation here is that for much of what obama has done over the years, there's two ways of viewing it. either he has a master plan, what he showed in the 2008 campaign where he sort of outwitted hillary clinton. or is he being overtaken by events. i argue to cut to the chase is that has been more of a pawn in his administration but the main thing that matters about a president is does he get better at his job. >> when you say a pawn, are you talking a pawn to other players or a pawn to outside events? >> both. maybe i should cede the floor to my editor. >> one of the big things about the administration he ran on entirely different issues than he had to govern on. he beat hillary clinton because of the iraq war. he campaigned on america's place in the world. foreign policy and suddenly, a month before the election, the financial world melts down. he takes over a government that is not at all what he was prepared for. and that he's run on. so that was the way in which events overtook him. >> james, one of my concerns has been not what my conservative brethren say that he's a m amart or a socialist. my problem is that he has, i believe, deferred too much to congress. that far from being this dangerous idealogue. is that at times he's allowed his government to run in a sort of ad hoc nature, being able to be pulled in on, let's say cap and trade. in fact, it's a fight he didn't want to fight. or having nancy pelosi and the congress saying no, no, no, you're not writing the stimulus bill, we're writing the stimulus bill. do you find that in some of your reporting? >> yes. i think one of the points i tried to make here is we've all seen enough administrations to know that every one of them comes in weak in some way and the comparative weakness of president obama was he had less sort of operating experience in government than a lot of other people. and he didn't have crucially, the network of contacts that bill clinton in particular had been developing for 20 years before he came to office. so there was a sort of inherited clinton crew that was his main support staff and one of the lessons they learned from the clinton health care debacle is you can't present things to the congress. you've got to bring them in. they overlearned that lesson, overlearned that mistake with the results you are suggesting. >> david? >> jim, think at the outset of the obama administration, he let congress take the lead on the stimulus. he let congress take the lead on health care reform. he really kind of led from behind. he got quote-unquote temporary victories, but they had a great political price with regard to you know, inability to get other things done. my question is the following -- if he's re-elected, the key is we're going to need extraordinary leadership in order to go to the american people with the facts, the truth and the tough choices. he's shown a willingness to put certain things on the table, like medicare reform, medicaid. he hasn't done anything with regard to social security and he hasn't done anything big with regard to taxes. does he have the inherent leadership ability to try to be able to take on some of these tougher issues? >> well you know, of course that's what we'll see, maybe the most important thing i argue in this article is that, is that while we feign not to care about re-election, we think it's unworthy for presidents to scheme for re-election, actually it makes a huge difference, everything about a first term is retroactively con tifirmed if they're successful. or retroactively confirmed if he's a failure. >> give us an example of that? >> i would say the position of the economic argument over the last nine months has been a lot better than it was in the first year. and with the state of the union speech, you heard a case for his economic plan. he was making the argument that we need some public coordination with private enterprise. so there was less of the ad hoc where he had more something you could imagine him trying to do in a second term. >> if he is re-elected, joe, he does enter the budget negotiations, he campaigns on his priorities now, including tax hikes, for the wealthy. and then enters a new round of budget negotiations next time with that clarified. and with these two gigantic levers he didn't have, the expiration of the bush tax cuts and these automatic recisions that are taking place in january, including half from the military. >> and he, he knows how this movie ends, also. as you point out. he ran at a time of war and peace. he was against the war. and as george w. bush found out, what you campaign on is not always what you govern on. so you write something here that's fascinating, james, you say obama was unready for the presidency and unsuited for it in many ways. but then you go on to say correctly and everybody forgets this. if you read history, fdr was not even fdr at the start. fdr was seen by many as this ne 'er do well, pampered new york governor that was going to be too soft to be president. >> and bill clinton after the '94 mid terms was in terrible shape, ronald reagan a year and a half in looked in bad shape. we have a real temptation in our business to have instant history every day going up and down. >> and jimmy carter looked very strong going into his re-election. >> your were a speech writer. >> can i ask about jimmy carter? jimmy jimmy carter often is a punchline, unfairly, but carter obviously a good man, he came into the white house. he was going to clean washington up. but had -- if you read tip owe neil's auto biograph fay terrible relationship with democrats as well and he never seemed to learn the lessons over four years that would have made him more effective. >> yeah. >> compare jimmy carter and barack obama, because there seem to be a lot of similarities the first two years. is barack obama learning from the mistakes of his first two years? >> i think so probably the most important thing about -- the most important similar sit probably both of these presidents were like the as kind of cleansing operations. jimmy carter after the watergate scandals, the resignation of nixon, barack obama after iraq and all the tension from there so, obama didn't even have to run all the issues he was governing on. he was running on mainly war and peace issues. obama has one big advantage over jimmy carter i understand very well. obama is a very good rhetorician. he can make it big on the speech. this was not carter's strength. carter, it was a close election against reagan. it looked like reagan was a guaranteed landslide winner in retrospect. >> through the friday before the election. not bring this up with mika, not a good day in the brzezinski house. people forget that it was a landslide. but jimmy carter the friday hi extraordinary and remarkable varied and he was filing right up to the end, writing right up to the end and this was a piece that he sent to our literary editor shortly before he died. >> and finally, mika wants to know about these feline parasites. >> you got to read it. >> cat out of the house? >> no part of the lesson is you should keep the cat inside the house and no way to talk about this without sending i've been made crazy by our own two cats. >> you are crazy. >> but there is this emerging science, brave science of interaction between our brain and seriously and bacteria, how it influence ours behavior and a bacteria that a cat carries, toxoplasmosis that produces essentially suicidal behavior in rats. rats get it and they run toward the cat instead of away, and evidence that affect human behavior as well. >> could cause your hair to fall out. >> also has that effect. >> sounds nuts. >> it sounds nuts but read the story and you will, i think, find it very persuasive. jim is mad about it because he is a cat lover. >> as a cat opener, i was scare bud is worth reading. >> we need to contact patrick gavin of politico, he has got like 14 cats. thank you, guys. this is great. >> interesting magazine. >> thank you so much. >> chock full of stuff. >> jim's article in the new issue of "the atlantic" make sure you read it. more on "morning joe" in just a minute. 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[ speaking chinese ] [ male announcer ] stay a step ahead with the 4g lte galaxy s ii skyrocket. only from at&t. ♪ until the end of the quarter to think about your money... ♪ that right now, you want to know where you are, and where you'd like to be. we know you'd like to see the same information your advisor does so you can get a deeper understanding of what's going on with your portfolio. we know all this because we asked you, and what we heard helped us create pnc wealth insight, a smarter way to work with your pnc advisor, so you can make better decisions and live achievement. still ahead on "morning joe," bring you jeff sessions, ranking member of the senate budget committee, dr. jeffrey sacks, steve rattner and mark mckinnon all join the conversation. "morning joe" is back in a moment. is it fast? it's got 10 speeds, my friend. ♪ is it fast? it's got a lightning bolt on it, doesn't it? ♪ is it fast? i don't even know if it's street legal. ♪ is it safe? oh ya, it's a volkswagen. 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'cause when we mix behr ultra paint and primer in one... ...with a few hours... ...we get more than just color... ...we get top-rated coverage. the kind wakes up walls, and reinvents rooms. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. behr ultra paint and primer in one now starts at just $29.38, it's lowest price ever. good morning, is 8:00 on the east coast, as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." happy valentine's day, everybody. back with us on set, we have dr. jeffrey sacks, steve rattner and in washington, mark mckinnon. >> let's go down to hippie and washington, d.c. >> what did you bring me, hippie? >> hippie, new polls out now that are showing -- what does it mean? you have got michigan which is mitt romney's home state, where he was born, it was his firewall in 2008, it was where he performed the strongest, now new polls out today showing he is actually getting hammered there, getting hammered there, mika, 15 points to this rick santorum guy. >> voters in michigan head to the polls in less than two weeks, right now, rick santorum has the lead. hello, edges out mitt romney by 6 points in the latest american research group poll. michigan is the state, of course, romney's father served as governor. newt gingrich third with 21% support, followed by ron paul, polling at 12%. >> then, of course, the public policy poll that we have been hearing whispers about over the past couple of days, where santorum's lead over romney is even bigger, 39% to 24% lead. and of course, ron paul and newt gingrich falling further and further behind in all polls. the ppp notes that santorum is behind romney everywhere in michigan except oakland county where romney lived as a child. >> that's nice. >> mark mckinnon, no need to overstate this, last week, when rick santorum won, somebody wisely won three state, somebody around the table wisely said, that's great, he has got no money, he has got no organization and he's got no chance. if he wins in michigan, we have to reassess this race completely, don't we? need to stop calling mitt romney the front-runner? >> absolutely. and it shows in this day and able, with technology and media how little money and organization mean if you have a powerful message. ? a true existential threat for mitt romney. if he doesn't win michigan that is a true crisis. i have always thought there should be a gore rule, where you have -- if you can't win your home state, then -- >> go home. >> you don't get to be the nominee, tough go home. this is a big problem. wither going to see, starting today, the super pac money will unload from the romney machine and it is going to get ugly up there. rick santorum, unlike newt gingrich is a very powerful and consistent communicate and also has a very consistent history with the cultural conservatives and there are a lot of them up there in michigan this is going to be really interesting to watch, even if it is turning into a true two-man race. >> you get the idea that newt gingrich sat alone in his room, you know, eating candy bars reading history. rick santorum, you get the idea beat up a bunch of brothers and they beat him, 'cause santorum's a tough guy. when he gets attacked, doesn't get angry, he just looks at mitt and you see it on the stage. he is, really, mitt? are you really -- and he does seem, thinking about this morning, seems much better suited, mark, to take those attacks from romney and actually turn them around against romney. i only say that to say the romney campaign better be careful because as you know, if you go negative and it backfires on you, it's over. you melt down and your campaign crashes to the ground. >> yeah santorum has been in a lot of tough fights before, he is very consistent, he is very focused and he is also a lunch bucket guy, a real blue collar background which will conform very well to michigan voters up there. so they are going to respond well to santorum and i think he is going to plant his flag there and take it right to romney and going to be fascinating to watch the next couple of weeks. >> mark, you mentioned the super pacs and absolutely right. with new pressure from santorum, the pro-romney super pac, restore our future, is spending $640,000 on ads in the state the next week. comes to the race on a national level, let's take a look at a new pew research poll showing santorum and romney in a statistical tie. >> this guy was at 2% at the time when be said you're supposed to be hitting your stride. >> but how much of this is flavor of the month, flavor of the week, seen each of these guys one by one, have their moment -- >> about mitt. >> and recede after that and how much is staying power and how much is just the moment? >> i think this is different. with each one of those flavor of the months, you had reasons, i could look at herman cain, said shucky ducky, he is fine, but a punchline, he is selling books. newt gingrich we all knew about newt gingrich's flaws and go sarah palin, she is just not ready to govern. if she stud dpoirs four years, maybe she will four years from now. you can go through each one of them, donald trump, rick perry, tell immediately. rick santorum, i think everybody makes a mistake looking at 2006 when he got killed in pennsylvania. i'm telling you the ghosts of ronald reagan would have lost in 2006 after six years in iraq and massive spending. um, santorum this is a guy that won in pennsylvania two times as a hard-right republican. you know how hard that is? in pennsylvania? we are not talking -- the guy were from alabama, jeffrey sacks, i would say one thing, as you know, pennsylvania is a strange state. most of us, most of the 49 other states now are more libertarian. they want less government in their, you know, pocketbook. they want less government in their bedroom. pennsylvania's a little different because of that catholic populace flair. they like a bigger government there and they don't mind social conservatives, like bob casey for instance. >> i think the arithmetic is also different, romney never made a breakthrough anywhere but had six or seven opponents, now it is really getting down to one or two and if santorum really is the only other, the nonromney, he is really able to garner the votes now, so, it is quite different. romney never made a breakthrough in any of the earlier races. so, it's kind of amaze bug how is santorum going to play if he gets the rom nation, the general election? a completely different electorate that he is going to face. >> see, and this is where i disagree with the con ven aelgs wisdom. the guy like rick santorum said too many crazy things, too this and too that. i'm surprised conservative activists a month or two ago said i thought rick santorum would match up better in the general election than any of these other candidates because he does have the blue collar background and because at the end of the day, 90% of americans don't obsess on social issues and we have seen with santorumed and saw it this week, david gregory read that part of the book, it said basically, you have got feminists who have encouraged women to stay home. nine out of ten candidates would fumble around. santorum explain it had away. >> he had no problem with that question. i was fascinated by that question, i have wondered about him and the whole concept of working women and family but stylistically, which, you know exis a part of the game, willie, he has something that mitt romney doesn't. there is a -- i don't agree with anything he says but -- >> anything? that's awfully harsh. >> i don't. that's not harsh. i don't. >> mark was on it before when he said he relates better, rick santorum does, in the state of michigan that crist matthew also question of politic, is this guy one of us? a blue collar working class, you look at mitt romney, you say he is not one of us. you do look at rick santorum and to some degree and say he is one of us. >> like i know him. >> we look at the numbers morning, two and a half weeks ago on a sunday show that newt gingrich called for rick santorum to get out of the race. so the game's up, look at your poll numbers, i'm conservative numbers, time to get out, rick santorum. >> mark mckinnon? >> you make a point about rick santorum's strength about middle class works and blue collar america, you think about obama's strength, and that this right where it is. we remind me of 2004, we got the perfect candidate in john kerry, his weaknesses reflected the president's strengths, strategically, the perfect foil for us. i would argue that howard dean would have been a better candidate against bush because he was strong and bold and kind of had the same strengths. that is a very similar situation what we are seeing here, i think. >> mark, you are exactly right. democrats, a lot of time, comfort themselves by saying we are the party of the working class but george w. bush is going to relate to blue collar voters in pennsylvania and in michigan than say john kerry or al gore or michael dukakis and barack obama is a little different because he is obvious much more nimble politically than those guys. but at the same time, he had trouble in these areas against hillary clinton. i think a santorum/obama matchup would be fascinating. you certainly couldn't call him the 1%. >> exactly right. >> the grandson of a coal miner who talked about seeing his granddad, you know, in -- at the funeral and seeing those big hand hands. >> that part comes naturally to him u. >> comes naturally to him. he doesn't -- in fact, i think why the reason santorum seems more real than anybody else, he hasn't been able to afford focus groups. he hasn't been able to afford -- >> to be cleaned up. >> pollsters. exactly, to be cleaned up. he had to clean himself up in iowa through 99 counties with he has won this campaign with no money. quickly, jeffrey sacks, i know you probably disagree with rick santorum on many front it has to be encouraging to you, somebody who always talks about money and politics, 'cause i got to say thursday even surprises me, that a guy with absolutely no money could march across iowa, kind of like jimmy carter in '76, and create something of nothing. >> the old-fashioned way. >> the old-fashioned way. >> we will see. >> oh, come on. some grudging respect. >> not even grudging respect. there's a lot of stories about pay-to-play in pennsylvania politics and what he did in the senate and how he favored the lob business. >> i'm going to criticize him, he voted in 2004 for the medicare drug benefit plan which i think is absolutely, colossally horrible, an earmark guy. let just look at candidate, a generically and i say he is running against a massive money machine, throwing money around. i'm just staying is possible still in 2012 to win elections the old-fashioned way, at least early on the >> i hope so i hope so in one sense, you know, romney has really been tagged accurately as the 1% and he is suffering for it. >> steve -- >> you said repeatedly on the show, let's not forget, the party doesn't particularly want romney they want a so-called true conservative, grappling, groping, looking all over the place for someone other than romney and santorum is the last man standing in that respect. i don't know whether he can stand up to the end. i think his positions are really, really conservative, probably too conservative for the general electorate. great personal story but i think you have to on the i shall use the and i think more reflection of romney's deficiencies than santorum's wonderful qualities, but we will see. >> l. >> wonderful, he had -- there were quote marks around the word wonderful. >> wonderful personal qualities. >> listen to him. >> joe, you said you think santorum has the best shot to be president. did you mean outside of mitt romney or does that include mitt romney? >> better than mitt romney. >> because the problem with romney if i'm democrat, i'm going to take every little sing that he said, i'm going to characterize him as the candidate of the 1% and also the thing that excites me is that romney's own base, i'm a democrat running against him, romney's own base is not excited. if you have a base that's excited about your candidate, like the republican base would be, mark, tell me whether i'm right or not, about rick santorum, then those -- then those people go to the telephone banks. those people knock on doors. those people -- and you see it happening when you have a candidate that excites people, they are passing out bumper stickers at church, at the end of church, here put this on your car, why is this not on your car? nobody is going to do that for mitt romney, nobody did it for john mccain, nobody did it for bob dole, nobody did it for gerald ford in '76, and nobody did it for rick santorum. >> you look at the past three or four presidential camp pain, the enthusiasm gap really makes the difference in who won those elections. happened with obama, george bush both times, particularly in 2004, when you have -- you see a situation where independents may be floating out but you crank up the base and get your turnout up, that's what makes the difference in these elections. >> when we come back, ranking member of the senate ranking committee, republican senator jeff sessions. and bring in editor of national memo.com, joe conason. and what document reese veal about j. edgar hoofer and the history of the fbi. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check of the forecast. bill? >> good morning, mika, watching for the most part, light snow coming down out of areas, pennsylvania, a little bit this morning, chicago, cleveland, there could be snow on the ground, isn't too big of a system, a cloudy, coolish day through newt gingrich in the mid-atlantic. temperatures above normal this time of year, as well as mid-40s in boston, the middle of february. d.c. should be all right today. cloudy, 40. light rain for your drive, down there in georgia and one other damp sports, pacific northwest, rain moving onshore, going to be a dreary day there and also on the cool side. so your valentine's forecast like this light rain in the southeast, mid-atlantic, exit during the day, seeing showers in san diego today, overall you mild weather pattern, rain storm moving across the country tomorrow, no snowstorms on the way again, who knows, at this point, winter may never show up. you are watching morning joe, brewed by starbucks. mid grade dark roast forest fresh full tank brain freeze cake donettes rolling hot dogs bag of ice anti-freeze wash and dry diesel self-serve fix a flat jumper cables 5% cashback right now, get 5% cashback at gas stations. it pays to discover. but sometimes i wonder... what's left behind? 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[ male announcer ] you do, business pro. you do. go national. go like a pro. we want to keep these tax cuts for wealthy americans or keep investing in everything else, education, clean energy, a strong military, care for our veterans? we can't do both. we can't afford it. and some people go around they say the president is engaging in class warfare, that's not class warfare, that's common sense. that's common sense. >> you know what else is common sense? >> i'm staying on the agenda. >> you know what else -- i'm staying on the agenda, too. so willie -- >> thomas roberts. >> thomas roberts, special delivery. >> i don't support this. >> mika. >> yeah. >> from the good people at the 11 a.m. show. they have won all three of us over. >> not me. >> eating these burgers -- >> not me, i won't eat them. >> you already ate them, just stop, you have had two. >> no. >> bergers cookies out of baltimore, maryland. man, those are good. >> all right. enough of that. with us now from capitol hill, republican senator from alabama and ranking member of the budget committee, senator jeff session and here on saturday, the editor of nationalmemo.com, joe conason. joe, i'm going to get to what you're writing about online but before we do that, let's go to senator sessions. senator, i'm guessing you probably didn't think much of the president's budget? >> didn't lay out a plan to change our debt course, joe. we are on an unsustainable path and truly the debt represents the most clearly identifiable threat to our future. this budget increases all of what we agreed to last year, wipes out part of the sequester, half of it increasing spending by $1.5 trillion, increasing taxes by nearly -- over $1.5 trillion. and so the spending increases and the debt stays the same. essentially over ten years. and i don't think that's what the american people want. i think they are worried about our future around it is a big gamble. the president is being sunny, he is being hopeful and he is talking positive and then attacks those who say, wait a minute, we have got to make some tough choice, as people who are skin prints in and don't want to have a positive view of america. >> the president would say he is making the tough choices by raising taxes, like bill clinton raised taxes in 1993, that he believes that is the fiscally prudent thing to do. >> joe, if he raised taxes to pay down the debt, that's one thing. but the new tax increases basically don't reduce the debt at all because they increase spending over just what we agreed to last year. so this is a tax and spend budget, not a tax to reduce the deficit budget and we remain on the same course that we are -- we have been on. i think it's -- >> i'm just curious though, unlike, for example, other moments in our history when taxes were raised under republican administrations, including ronald reagan, isn't this one of those situations touches reinvest back into your society where it is suffering from not only the numbers, disparities in are severe but lack of energy and innovation and educational prospects? >> meek cast, you can just spend more every year on that theory. in the first two years of president obama's administration, nondefense discretionary spending went up 24% at a time we were running the largest def sits in history. we just don't have the money. we just can't continue to increase spending after -- particularly when we know a lot to have is unwisely spent and really tough management to run this country wisely, to put money where it needs to go. you could produce positive results without increasing spending. >> senator sessions it is willie geist, good to see you this morning, talking about the growth of medicare and what it means to the budget. republicans, yourself included, critical of the president and other democrats in congress for not taking a serious approach to reining in spending on medicare or having a long-term plan for that. what's the best idea you have, senator, for reining in the growth of medicare and making sustainable for the next generation? >> i like the plan that the house members put forward. i think the widen/ryan bipartisan plan has real potential to put medicare on a sounder course. you also need to deal with social security. you also need to deal with medicaid. none of those are seriously dealt with in the president's budget and shows up in this ten-year window but more significantly it gets us not off the course we are on outside the ten-year window when the price is even more pronounced. >> obviously, senator, democrats in the white house think vouchers are a bad idea. that's probably not middle ground you are going to find in congress with your colleagues across the aisle. is there somewhere in the middle could you meet democrats because i think both side agree this is something that has to be dealt with, somewhere where you two could get something done in the middle? >> well, i think there is. and i believe the widen-ryan proposal is a republican proposal proposed by these senators been through the system for some time and note numbers and i think that has some potential for improvement of medicare, i really do i think that is a positive development. >> joe conason is with us and he has a question for you. joe? >> i wonder if you would apply the same standards to the proposals of the republican presidential candidates, because mitt romney's plan makes the deficit even worse by republican standards than anything we have seen from the president. the president's plan, depending how you score it saves trillions of dollars, romney's plan blows a much bigger hole in the budget by cutting taxes more than george w. bush did. do you endorse that plan? >> well, we have got to reduce the deficit and to the extent any of the candidates don't get there i'm uneasy about it, but i do disagree, joe, that the president does not cut spending. the president increases spending. that's spin that they have got out there and had success with. it is not so. spending goes up under the president's plan. he eliminates the cuts we passed just last summer -- >> cuts medicare advantage, for example, senator, he cuts medicare advantage by $100 balance year which saves quite a bit of money. republican reasons have always opposed that do you still oppose that? >> we think medicare advantage provided a choice for seniors that was very popular but again, i'm just saying -- there are no cuts of any program, i'm sake the net spending goes up and it is net spending threatening america's financial future. >> all right, senator, before you go just curious if that tax on the wealthy that money went directly to paying down the debt, would you support it? >> that would be a lot different issue. >> would you support it? >> it sure would. i don't think knee with he need raise tax. i don't think we have challenged at all the growth in federal government program and work to put them on basis that is sound but i -- you know, i'm -- taxes are something i don't favor but if we have to do it, it should reduce deficits, not fund new spending. >> fair enough. >> very good. >> senator jeff sessions, thank you very much. a pleasure to have you on the show this morning. >> thank you, senator. you know, that's -- >> that was a sort of. >> the deal -- right. the deal -- nobody wants to show their hands right now, but the deal that he is there for the taking is for republicans to agree to expanding the tax base, bringing in more revenue, in some form, and democrats agreeing to slow down the rapid rate of entitle. growth. >> the president offered that plan, joe. they didn't want it. >> until both sides come forward with a real plan and put it down, the president didn't put down real numbers, he spoke in generali generalities, we will keep have republicans and democrats talking past each other. >> kent put down a specific plan for them to attack unless he knows they are ready to come to the table. the problem is we talked about for months, boehner doesn't control the caucus, he can't come with a real plan, as much as he might have wanted to last summer and they now have a presidential campaign based on promise more goodies to the wealthiest constituents than george bush ever did. that is their front runner, punitive front runner, still the most delegate, mitt romney, has a plan that would blow the deficit sky high for two more generations. so how do they come to the table with a plan? it is not going to happen. >> republicans are saying the democratic senate won't even put a budget on the floor to vote up or down and the only person that put forward a plan is paul ryan and he got -- >> killed. >> so neither side is gonna trust the other side to be responsible and we just keep chugging along with the national debt going toward 16 trillion. >> a lot of people learn third lesson when paul ryan put his budget out. not going through what he went through. he got heat. ed when he did t frustrating we can you know this conversation is a theoretical conversation. the budget comes out, republicans say what they like. know they are not going to be in the mild, filling time. not going to happen. the ryan budget didn't reach balance anyway, it made deficits worse, you go back and look that budget was scored a great political budget but did not achieve the goal it was supposed to achieve and it brought tremendous political pressure on the republicans by attacking medicare. >> well, the -- >> it was not great plan. >> depends how you define attacking. the problem is, mika, you look at paul ryan's budget, people say is extreme. you look at the president's budget, um, they both allow the debt to grow at a rapid rate. paul's allow it is to grow more slowly over time, but we are in big, big trouble. >> the depressing part is the point chuck todd made, we are going to wade through the electorate. nothing is going to happen. >> we hear that every four years, nothing happen, people say wait to the next election. >> we need to do better. thousands of newly released documents on the history of the fbi and role j. edgar hoover played as architect of the modern surveillance able. we will be right back. ♪ there's a place i dream about ♪ ♪ where the sun never goes out ♪ ♪ and the sky is deep and blue ♪ ♪ won't you take me american flight 280 to miami is now ready for boarding. ♪ there with you fly without putting your life on pause. be yourself. nonstop. american airlines. ♪ they hatin' ♪ patrolling and tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ ♪ tryin' to catch me ridin' dirty ♪ [ mom ] hi, there. why do we always have to take your mom's car? 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[ male announcer ] get the venture card at capitalone.com and earn double miles on every purchase every day. what's in your wallet? i was gonna say that. uh huh... there is a new face to communism. communism is a foreign threat now, not domestic. >> mr. kennedy, before you were even born, i heard that very same argument from a mr. mitchell palmer. do you know what it took to change his mind? a bomb. now, i do not want that to happen to you or your brother, sir. there's no reason we both can't get what we want. we can wage a war on two fronts, sir. you understand? >> you can go now, mr. hoover. >> yes, sir. >> wow. that was a scene from the clint eastwood-directed film "j. edgar" starring leonardo dicaprio as the controversial fbi director. now pull zer prize-winning author tim winer gives us history of the fbi and secret intelligence operation it is employed in his new book "enemies, a history of the fbi" and tim joins us now. this looks fascinating you, thanks very much for coming in. >> my pleasure. first of all, you and joe were cub reporters in the philippines. >> little backstory here. >> watching the collapse of -- well, actually, the first people's revolution? >> 25, 27 years ago. it was a beautiful thing. >> it was a beautiful thing. and i understand joe was running through imelda's closet, trying to grab as many -- >> there was that. >> i was there the night they left, actually. >> were you really? >> yes, i was. >> and tim interacted with my father, so he has also been burned, just like you. >> i know. it happens. so, let's talk about the fbi and let's talk about what was your big take away in his work? >> that the history of the fbi is the struggle of the united states to be both safe and free, that we need both security and liberty. we can't have one without the other but they are opposing forces and the fbi lives with this tug-of-war between security and the liberty every day. >> and we are a bit more elastic, are we not, during times of war? we have been -- i think it's fair to say, very pragmatic when it comes to civil liberties during a time of war. >> i don't think any war-time president from fdr on ward looks to the constitution to limit his power. every president has seen himself at war. the fact the current president used to be a teacher of constitutional law may make a difference. are you surprised that president obama has continued many programs that he was opposed to, george w. bush and dick cheney. >> and ran on the. >> they think they can balance this security you freedom, liberty, surveillance and every president devaults back to the security position. the people pull back, the government exceeds its power trying to enforce security and it's -- we recalibrate this every day. people telling them if you don't do this, people will die. >> how do you respond to that? >> like bob mueller confronted the oval office. i'm going to quit, the attorney general's going to quit and the next six people down from him are going to quit. bush pulled back. >> there is that balance but that is not usually what presidents hear. >> hear what they want to hear. >> usually hear -- like, for instance, the story, some very -- people very high up in the fbi talked about when president obama got what they called the o-blank briefing, where they went in and showed the president all the -- the president-elect all the threats, he looked at the threats and said, oh blank. >> the first thing they do after the swearing n. >> frightening a slap in the face, isn't it? >> you know. this the first thing they do after the swearing in, you go to the white house and the army officer opens up the suitcase and says here are the codes for launching nuclear weapons, mr. president and this is what you do closes the suitcase, call the football. he is always there he never leaves. he is a constant reminder of existential threats and hoover, god bless him, foresaw these existential threats to the united states and he warned about them, suicidal kamikaze attacks on washington from world war ii onward. >> wow. >> looking at photographs of j. edgar hoover, sought clip coming in, i think a lot of the american public has this caricature idea. >> a tyrant in a tutu. >> exactly. what is the truth about him? what new do we learn about j. edgar hoofer in your book? >> that he was not a monster, that he was an american machiavelli, he flatter and courted presidents and they flaerntd courted him back. tapes of johnson and nixon to here, stroking each other, flattering, cajoling, presidents licked his boots because they feared him. and he wanted them to fear him. information is power. secret information is secret power and secret information that you have the president is power squared. hoover lived for that. >> joe? >> how much has the fbi reformed since the death of hoover, tim? >> it almost died after hoover died. almost 40 years ago. the next fbi director was indicted for injustice, because he was nixon's stooge and the next was deep float, violating the constitutional rights of americans with searches and seizures. i think everyone has failed, except this one, robert muller, he has served more than ten years, president obama ex-tippeded his term 12 years and i think he is trying to get it right, i think he is trying to get this balance between security and liberty right. one reason he has succeeded is he is a marine and the marines, if your people go up the hill, if you are an officer, you go up the hill. and he knows about loyalty up and down, as almost all of his predecessorers did not. >> you talk about his showdown with george w. bush but anyone watching should not take away from that that this is somehow a hippie that puts -- >> he's marine. >> inside of guns. he's marine anticipated be the first to tilt world is a very dangerous, nasty place and we have to stay one step ahead of our enmis. >> he has also said that he wants no one to be able to say -- no future historian that we won the war on terror but lost our civil liberties. >> it is a dangerous place but our reputation is a complicated thing. >> this is why we're americans, because our constitution guarantees us these freedoms and if we lose them, that would be the ultimate pyrrhic victory. >> tim wiener, thank you so much for the book, enemies, a history of the fbi. for an excerpt visit our blog, mojo.msnbc.com. >> looks great. >> pleasure. a look at linsanity. what it has done to the stock market. linsanity. >> reaching now. reaching. >> business before the bell is next. ♪ na, na... ♪ na, na-na, na [ men ] ♪ hey, hey, hey ♪ goodbye [ flushing ] ♪ [ both ] ♪ na, na... 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[ female announcer ] discover what's next in your life. get this free travel bag when you join at aarp.org/jointoday. you remember the lip read g readingthings from the campaign? jimmy fallon has his own version -- called, an alter ego named peggy hess who narrates political conversations in a segment he calls "celebrity whisperer's." zuncht eat the last of my toe tino pizza roles? >> no i didn't take them. >> you did. i can smell them on your breath. >> what's new, nancy? i just got to mario party 9 for the wii. >> can you dough do your mario impression? >> i can. dead on the. >> you having a good time? >> yeah, great. fun to be here with you. what was your name again? oh, i'm pregnant. >> hey, how are you? >> good. i have a coupon for you two for one appetizers at the olive garden. >> cool. i love going there. >> celebreta? >> did you grab my jam cds? compact disc. >> stereo of that car back there? >> no, this car right here. >> okay. let's go. >> jock jams. >> who knew the president listin's to jock jams. i would never guessed that. fired up for a speech. i love that coming up next, what if anything -- >> i wonder. >> did you learn on this long -- here is your business travel forecast for this valentine's day. i'm bill carrens. light snow out there this morning, areas like detroit, cleveland, pittsburgh could get snow showers, northern kentucky, i know slippery roads. overall, rain in the southeast. the next storm system a rainmaker moving across the country. overall, warm temperatures continue from coast to coast. enjoy. with the ability to improve roi through seo all by cob. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. i'm going b-i-g. 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[ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. so i'm glad it's with fidelity. they offer me one-on-one guidance to help me choose my investments. not just with my savings plan here at work. they help me with all of my financial goals. looking good, irene. thanks to fidelity, i can stay on top of my financial future, huh? good one. why, thank you. whether it's saving for retirement, college, or anything else, contact a fidelity investment professional today. an accident doesn't have to slow you down. with better car replacement, if your car is totaled, we give you the money for a car one model year newer. liberty mutual auto insurance. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] now there's a mileage card that offers special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. thanks. ♪ okay. what's your secret? ♪ [ male announcer ] the new united mileageplus explorer card. get it and you're in. welcome back to "morning joe." a little queen. what is going on, willy? what did you learn on this valentine's day? >> nothing sexier, nothing, to start valentine's morning than with long-term fiscal analysis. got the charts. >> forget the long-stemmed roses, go for that long-term fiscal analysis. >> ratner and circling the paragraphs. >> amazing. >> it is red hot. >> thank you, dr. sacks. >> why did dr. sacks put his lipstick on it? thomas roberts in big trouble. >> thank you, thomas roberts, great stuff. mika had three of these things. >> no. >> i learned jeffrey sacks came up to me after and said we got to go out -- drop the budget, i'm going to drop my budgets. coming to a college campus near you someday soon. so what are your plans for valentine's day? >> my plans? >> what are you going to do with your wife? where are you taking her? exciting. >> i'm not going to

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