0 just enough time for trinidad and tobago to throw a 17 -- okay, i'm not going to cry -- a 17-yard touchdown and give the saints a heartbreaking loss. and that's what happens when you rush to declare a runner prematurely. you might miss out on the real loss coming your way, the drama of the government shutdown and the debt default may have played out like a political contest between democrats and republicans, but the economic impact on america, the real loser, was not a game. our economic recovery just got a little slower thanks to $24 billion slight shaved off the american economy by the government shutdown, including $1.3 billion lost in government services, $152 million per day lost in travel spending, $76 million lost each day the national parks were shut down, $217 in daily losses in federal and contractor wages, just in washington, d.c. alone. and while the last-minute legislation managed to keep the full credit of the united states intact, it's clear that the world has lost faith in our economic integrity. just take a look at these international headlines. america's global reputation for sound, risk free, fiscal policy undermined by the new perception that we are willing to throw it all away on a political game. and what's worse? the deal to end this manufactured crisis creates deadlines for three more in the next four months. so the game isn't over. we are just in a time-out. joining me now, carmen wong ulri ulrich, host of "marketplace money" on american public media, josh vivens from the economic policy institute and author of "everybody wins except for most of us," andre gillespie, political science professor at emery university and author of "the new black politician." and kristin anderson, vice president of the winston group in washington, d.c., based opinion research and political communications firm. thanks to all of you for being here. >> thank you. >> thanks for having me. >> i want to take a look for a moment at what the actual resolution said, carmen, and sort of what it takes us to now in terms of setting these additional deadlines. we are still going forward with a resolution that at this point is going to have us, you know, needing to once again do this whole battle. how much did the economy -- how badly did the economy lose in this game? >> those numbers are the tip of the iceberg. using the game analogy, think of consumers as the fan. there's what the people in charge say. they're the fans. they're just watching us. we are a consumer-driven economy. the consumeer, the fans, are actually in charge, and the holidays are coming and they have lost a tremendous amount of confidence in the system, in the economy. they're going to feel it. they're going to feel it for months, maybe years. we should have come out of this recession stronger by now, and we haven't, because of all this that's happening. the fans are saying you know what, we're not going to spend. we're not going to buy tickets to this game. we're finished. this holiday season is going to be really interesting. >> we're only funded through january 15th. debt ceiling is only raised till february 7th. on the back end of the -- right, the holidays. in "the new york times," in this article about the damage done, "the economic damage from obstruction and extortion didn't start when the gop shut down the government. on the contrary, it's been an ongoing process dating back to the republican takeover of the house in 2010 and the damage large. unemployment would be far lower than if the house majority hadn't done so much to undermine the recovery." we've been focus on this element of the game, this quarter of the game, but krugman is saying this is a much longer-term set of damage that's occurred. >> instead of game i almost want to think slide show for the last couple weeks. it distracts us from the very long destruction of the economy that we've done taking unprecedented historic austerity in the past two or three years. the popular notion that spending has increased a lot under the obama administration could not be more historically wrong. compare this recovery to every other recovery since world war ii and government spending is far, far beneath any other recovery. to put it really crassly, if we spent like reagan did during his economic recovery, we'd have about 5 million, 6 million jobs in the economy today more, we'd be fully recovered if we spent at the normal historic average. >> and as the average of the sort of conservative standard there, part of where i want to come to you, because on the question of polling and particularly polling with conservatives or with republicans, this notion that the president has exploded the national debt, that spending is out of control does feel to me like it's a widely excessive belief even if, in fact, what we see empirically is a quickly declining deficit. >> we don't see a declining national debt. and that's the number that people focus on. you keep hearing the number that 17 trillion is the new benchmark. far lot of folks that number sounds incredibly scary, and so we were talking act how confident people feel in the u.s. economy. if you're not an economist, they hear that 17 trillion number and say not only am i concerned about this christmas but christmas 20 years from now. how is our country going to get out of this? there's deep concern for the direction of the country. at the end of this shutdown i've seen numbers that are historic lows for the number of americans who think the country is on the right track and that deep concern doesn't necessarily have a strong ideology to it. it's a sense of i feel like we're drowning. >> on the one handle i agree with you, but it doesn't seem ideologically positioned in part because on the left we conceded somehow that deficit was more important than growth. and i wonder if that was -- as long as we gave them the first ten yards insed of making the argument we need the big stimulus, deficit is shrinking. right? the deficit has been shrinking pretty massively in part because of the austerity measures. >> there are a couple things to consider here. one, people think about the national economy and think about their personal economies. >> a bad way to think about it. >> and so because of that, it's difficult to try to explain to people that debt is good. i think also people misunderstand the sources of our debt and think china owns everything. no, it's our savings bonds. when i buy those for my nieces for their birthdays or birth, i'm contributing to that debt and i expect the return on that later and they'll get that 27 years from now. i think if people really understood politics and understood how a national economy works, they might be more comfortable. i think it's largely a framing issue. >> some people do understand that debt is important in their own lives. take frips americans that take out a mortgage on their house. they know they can't necessarily fork over the hundreds of thousands of dollars right off the bat. i think real question is what we're spending, what we're taking this mortgage out on, is it a worthwhile capital investment in our country that's going to be lasting or something humans. we are beautifully imperfect creatures living in an imperfect world. that's why liberty mutual insurance has your back, offering exclusive products like optional better car replacement, where if your car is totaled, we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. call... and ask an insurance expert about all our benefits today, like our 24/7 support and service, because at liberty mutual insurance, we believe our customers do their best out there in the world, so we do everything we can to be there for them when they need us. plus, you could save hundreds when you switch, up to $423. call... today. liberty mutual insurance -- responsibility. what's your policy?