Good morning. Im melissa harrisperry. We begin with the breaking news still underway in nairobi, kenya. After 24 hours after a standoff began, masked gunman are still holed up in the building. At least 59 people are reported dead and 175 others injured. Four americans are among those hurt. A North Carolina woman was inside the mall at the time of the attack and described the scene. You could hear, while we were back there, them methodically going from store to store, talking to people, asking questions, shooting, screams, and then it would stop for a while, and then it would go to another store. Al shabaab, an Islamist Militant Group based in somalia is claiming responsibility for the attack. They say its revenge for the kenyas crackdown on the group in somalia which began two years ago. Al shabaab has pledged allegiance to al qaeda and has been lipged to other violence in eastern, kenya. But that is their most brazen attack yet. Nbcs ron allen joins us now with the latest. Rob, are you there. Reporter yes, i am, melissa. Tell me what the situation and the scene is there in nairobi. At the moment, it does not feel like something that is coming to an end. It feels more like a stalemate. The number of injured jumped to 175 and beyond that, its really hard to get a real clear assessment of whats actually happening inside the mall. We believe that there are anywhere from 10 to 15 gunman who are still there. We believe they have as many as 30 or more hostages. There are reports that they are confined to one area of the mall, perhaps an area near a supermarket, which is one of the largest stores in the mall. This morning, there were reports from neighbors in the area hearing the barrages of gunfire. People have been moved back. We were moved back several hundred yards from the entrance to the mall. Its a huge thing. You know, four stories. The Authorities Say theyve evacuated more than a thousand people to safety during the past 24 hours as this situation has played out. But at this point, it appears to be an enduring situation. The question is how patient will the authorities be. Will they try to push forward. Will the militants Holding Hostages make demands . Theres not a lot of communication at this moment. Nights about to fall. It appears were about to go in another cycle overnight. The government says they have the situation under control, but its really unclear what exactly is going on. And there are scores of people from this community who are waiting for word for people who are not accounted for. Again, a number thats not easily discernible, but a significant number, nonetheless. Ron allen, clearly, a continuing situation. Thank you for joining us from nairobi and stay safe and thank you for reporting for us. Reporter thank you. For more on the standoff and the group that is claiming speedometer, i would like to turn now to nbc terrorism analyst, roger cressey, who joins me from washington. Nice to see you this morning. You too, melissa. Tell me about the group, tal shabaab . They were the military wing of the islamic courts. That took over south somalia in the 2006 2007 time frame. And the thing to understand about that, this is very clanbased. It is very somalia focused in terms of its origins and what most of their objectives are. There is a lot of rivalry within the movement. There are leadership changes and what they try to do, is they have tried to take over somalia and turn it into an islamic state. Neighboring countries, principally ethiopia and kenya, working with the United States and others, have done everything they can to defeat them. Theres a u. N. Presence inside somalia right now as well working with the transitional government, trying to maintain some sense of stability. Al shabaab had control of Southern Somalia for some time and kenya launched a military offensive about a year and a half ago and liberated a port town from al shabaab. And ever since then, al shabaab has pledged that they were going to retaliate for it. And what weve seen at the mall at westgate could be the result of that. I want to talk about that and how this might be part of the strategic efforts here, of al shabaab. This is a mall i think we need to understand, this is where many people gather. Its a social space. Some of the peoples names we have already begun to hear, who have passed away as a result of this, or people who are very highlevel individuals. Can you give me a sense of whether or not attacking this mall is particular to the goals of this group . Well, the kenya somalia border has been porous for years, as well as the maritime border. So the kenyans have been trying to figure out how do we contain al shabaab inside somalia and do not allow them to come in. What al shabaab has tried to do is attack targets that inflict tremendous pain on the government of kenya as well as loss of life. This type of mall where expats go, where the upper middle class kenyans go. Theres a particular symbol to that. If were killing kenyans as well as expats in this type of facility, were sending a message, which is that were going after the foreign population. Tourism is the second largest source of income for the kenyan government, and its a tremendous attack against the prestige and capability and confidence of the kenyan government. Those are the two main objectives that al shabaab is trying to accomplish. Is there something for the community to learn, either about the the issue of a soft target, like an upscale mall, or about this group. Is this group itself a threat beyond sort of its porous, its neighbors where there are these porous boundaries. Is there something we should know about al shabaab related to al qaeda . First in the soft targets, its been a concern for decades now. This is not new. It merely reaffirms what many in fact Counterterrorism Community have always worried about. This is a highly coordinated attack. They clearly have at least 12, maybe more gunman. They infiltrated into kenya, they did reconnaissance on the target, and then in a coordinated movement, attacked the target to inflict maximum loss. So soft targets remain a high priority here. Al shabaabs reach, there was something about that. They did claim responsibility in uganda during 2010 in the world cup where over 70 people were killed. And the relationship to al qaeda is pretty simple. Which is their leadership pledge, by either allegiance to al qaeda, back fl february of 2012. So there is a relationship there, members of al shabaab have traveled to afghanistan and melissa, theres also what ill call an axis of al qaeda concern, where al qaeda in yemen has worked closely with al qaeda in somalia. They train together, there is information exchange, tactics and techniques. That area concerns u. S. Officials. Does al shabaab have the ability to project power and threats against the United States and the homeland . Absolutely not. But somalia americans have gone to somalia to fight within the civil war for clan reasons. Motivated by their ancestral country and the obligation they felt to support their local tribe. The concern that Law Enforcement and counterterrorism officials have, is that these individuals could ultimately come back to the United States, and if they so chose to, then plan and launch attacks here. That hasnt happened, and i dont want to overemphasize that, but that is in the back of the minds of the Counterterrorism Community. Thank you, roger cressey, for helping us to think a little bit more about this. You bet, melissa. Well have updates for you throughout the day on msnbc about this stilldeveloping situation in nairobi. Also, there will be continuing discussion of very new breaking fuse this morning about 75 in pakistan killed in a suicide attack. Theres a lot of news, we will continue to have that news here on msnbc. But when we come back, were going to turn back to domestic news and why the 1 percenters are having an especially good week. Humans. Even when we cross our ts and dot our is, we still run into problems. Namely, other humans. Which is why at Liberty Mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. See what else comes standard at libertymutual. Com. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . To severe plaque psoriasis. The frustration. Covering up. So i talked with my doctor. He prescribed enbrel. Enbrel is clinically proven to provide clearer skin. Many people saw 75 clearance in 3 months. And enbrel helped keep skin clearer at 6 months. [ male announcer ] enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. 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And just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. So that when youre doing more, youre spending less. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. Okay, everyone. I have a confession to make. I like porn. Specifically, i like 1 percenter porn and this week started off with a bang. Bow chick a wow wow. This is my kind of 1 percenter porn. Its the annual forbes 400 list, which showcases the richest 1 percenters in the world and it was announced on monday. 1 percenters like cover model, big daddy warren buffett, which is part of a group that is worth a record 2. 02 trillion. That amount is double from just a decade ago and is equal to the economic output of russia. And the minimum net worth for this players club is 1. 3 billion. Thats right, 1 billion doesnt cut it. But the cover aint nothing when you compare it to the centerfold. Just look at those assets theyre so bad and so good the waltons occupy, and im not kidding here, positions six through nine on the list and are worth a combined 136 billion. And if the waltons money isnt sexy enough for you, surely their power is. And it was on display last week when d. C. Mayor vincent gray vetoed legislation for a living wage bill aimed directly at walmart. So money, power, and respect. So on monday, i was ogling and oogling the 1 percenters and their sexy cash. Then came tuesday. And ton tuesday, more economic numbers were released. And tuesdays numbers conflicted with mondays 1 percenter happiness. According to the u. S. Census numbers, the picture is pretty bleak for american households with medium income when adjusted for inflation down 9 from the high in 1999. And those numbers for the poor werent that much better, since the poverty rate held steady at 15 , since last year. Unchanged from 2011. So when i was having a tough time reconciling mondays happy news numbers for the 1 percenters with tuesdays bleak new numbers for the rest of the american people, so on wednesday, it was back to happiness for the richest among us. The Federal Reserve announced it would continue buying bonds at 85 billion a monday to stimulate the economy. That news sent stocks soaring. The dow rose 1 and closed at a record high of 15,676 points. The s p 500 went to 1. 2 to close at a record high of 1,725 points. So yay for the 1 percenters who already had a lot of money on monday to begin with. So i guess the argument can be made that it helps the overall economy. But maybe not, since even more numbers on thursday basically screwed up the whole week for me and may have very well cured mid 1 percenter porn addiction, at least on that day. Because on thursday, the House Republicans led by congressman eric cantor voted to make it harder for the people most in need to be able to eat, by ripping a giant hole in the safety net. By a vote of 217210, the house passed the nutrition reform and work opportunity act that would cut 39 billion from the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or s. N. A. P. Over the next decade. That plan would eliminate s. N. A. P. Benefits for 4 million to 6 million lowincome people. And then there were fridays numbers. Thousands of people standing in line for hours for the chance to spend hundreds of dollars to get apples new iphone, 5s and 5c. An estimated 5 million to 8 million phones will be sold before the weekend is over. So lets get this straight. While 4 million to 6 million americans now have to worry more than ever about how they will be able to afford food, those of us who have the privilege to do so are lining up for a phone, which many of us, lets face it, already have, but we still wanted to spend 400 to upgrade it to the smaller, shinier, newer version. Yes, this week has made it more clear than ever that we are, in fact, living in at least two different americas. Where the haves have increasingly more, and the middle class and the poor have the odds stacked against them and the whole damn thing is rigged like they ever before. At the table, matt welch, editor in chief of reason magazine, deann braidly, and lisa cook with Michigan State university. Thank you all for being here this morning. Tamara, i do have a thing with the forbes, because im just so fascinated by the idea of what that kind of wealth is. But this inequality that i talked about this week, that we saw so clearly in the news this week didnt just happen, right . Its a result of policy, right . What are those policies . A whole slew of policies. Weve been on a threedecade binge of creating policies that by and large, as you said, stack the deck towards the wealthiest, towards corporate interests, and leave everybody else behind. There are three or four key ones. One, the minimum wage. When you think about economic inequality, you also have to think about political inequality. Because what happens is, as the wealthy capture more money, they also leverage that money into stacking the deck. And the greatest example of that is, we have only raised the minimum wage three times in three decades. Contrast that with what weve done with Capital Gains tax. We have cut Capital Gains taxes three times in a span of six years. Its incredible to think about that. So play that out. Just that notion of cutting Capital Gains three times this six years and raising the minimum wage only three times in 30 years is a dramatic kind of difference. But let me ask you this, lisa, one of the things that was surprising to me, im shocked by the present nature of certain kinds of inequality, particularly at the middle. We were looking at that Median Income chart by race, and the stunning thing for me. Theres a lot of lines the there, but the really stunning the thing is the extent to which it goes up, goes down, but the gap in median Household Incomes in race is the same from about 1967 to now. How is that possible . You know, were astounded by it. And i know the white house is quite worried about it. We were worried about it when i was at the council of economic advisers. But theres no answer to it. I was reviewing the data from the last 50 years, from 1963 to the present for africanamericans, and we are right where we were before, and it is astounding that thats the case. Because education has increased. All the things that you think would augment this have not done anything. And i think that the Median Income has, you know, converged a lot, up to the late 1970s, after world war ii, and then it exploded after the 1970s, so in addition to policy, its technical change, skillbased technical change, its globalization, its union membership. Thats declined over this period. Sometimes you see that as guaranteeing the floor. And there are a number of different factors. More people participating in real estate and fans. All of these drive these inequalities. So africanamericans may not have access to the jobs in finance and real estate. May not have access to skillbased there will change jobs. This is probably where were finding this gap. One of the things thats interesting, where youre seeing shrinking in the Public Sector, i think for minorities is one factor. And how you make it today is often entrepreneurialism. Then you get into the access to loans and finance. So i think a lot of those factors have really worked against africanamericans this terms of job growth. So let me ask you about what we should be most worried about, as we look at sort of all of these data that weve seen this week. Should we be most concerned about floors, about gaps, or about mobility . Because those all seem to me to be three different kind of measures of the health of where we are. And i think you cant just have one solution, but clearly, the fact that we have not addressed the minimum wage is important. But i think, also, education is critical, i think of one example where a jobsharing program, a friend of mine, a girl who was 16 said she wanted to be a teacher, and she said, what college are you going to go to . And she said, i have to go to college . This girl had to idea that college was a critical step in the same Way High School was a critical step, maybe a hundred years ago. We need to make education a bigger priority, more flexible, more of a lifetime commitment, and also not so expensive. Matt, i want you to weigh in a little bit here. Because all of the ladies at table thus far have suggested a certain amount of government engagement here in order to address both that government edge gaugement helped to create these inequalities, and tinkering with the minimum wage, increasing it might make a difference. But the reason readers who are viewing would say, wait a minute, you guys have got to stay out of tinkering with this. You talk about 1967 being a period from which we havent really changed much, we had the Great Society in the mid60s. So it might be a time to revisit the Great Society work, which is a place that makes a lot of people nervous to revisit. But some of the interventions weve seen over the past 40 years havent produced the promised result. When you look at the lower qu quintile did best, it was under bill clintons second term. Government was about after the size it is now. It was 1. 8 trillion, was his last budget. He balanced the budget. And suddenly, people started moving. What we should be concerned about, in my view, is not, you know, this plate of fruit . Right, the 1 has this much of this fruit. Income and wealth is not a plate, right . Its a dynamic, grow thing. What we should be focused on is mobility. And the question is, 40 years ago, if you were in the bottom 20 , you had a 51 chance of moving up, right . Now its 57 , so its better, but i think we all agree, thats not nearly enough. So what can we do to remove barriers to entrepreneurism which come in the form of Government Intervention. Well take a quick break and ill let both lisa and tamara beat you up as soon as we come back. I need to redeem some venture miles before my demise. Okay. Its easy to erase any recent travel expense i want. Just pick that flight right there. Mmm hmmm. Give it a few taps, and. Its taken care of. This is pretty easy, and i see it works on hotels too. You bet. Now if you like that, press the red button on top. How did he not see that coming . Whats in your wallet . [ female announcer ] at 100 calories, not all food choices add up. Some are giant. Some not so giant. When managing your weight, bigger is always better. Ho ho ho green giant good and close. Ho ho ho discover the new way to help keep teeth clean and breath fresh. New beneful healthy smile food and snacks. Hell love the crunch of the healthy smile kibbles. Youll love how they help clean. With soft, meaty centers, and teeth cleaning texture healthy smile snacks help keep a shine on his smile. Its dental that tastes so good. New beneful healthy smile food and snacks. Lets be clear. Im not mad at folks for making big money. But i am worried when those who have the big money show very little concern for those who dont. And right now the people tasked with ensuring that everyone is playing on a level field are overwhelming rich. Based on data compiled by opensecrets. Com, total net worth of all members in congress was about 4 billion. About half of the members of the u. S. Congress are millionaires. 2010 media net worth of a republican in the house of representatives was 843,250. And on thursday, 217 republicans in the house joined by not a single democrat voted to cut s. N. A. P. , the supplemental nutritional Assistance Program by 39 billion over the next decade. I dont know about you, but its concerning to me that the people who are voting to take food off of poor folks tables are the 1 percenters of politics. This is the point you were making earlier about interconnection between this is part of the point about interconnection between our economy and in our politics. Its astounding. And there were so many disturbing aspects the to the s. N. A. P. Vote. The debate around it, it felt we were back in welfare reform language, same playbook. The distance between the 1 and everybody else has never been greater. Either culturally, economically, you know, were a segregated society. We dont run in so many of our Congress Members have no idea what its like to work two jobs or commute for an hour and a half to go check out, you know, to be a cashier at walmart. But theoretically, they could. The theory of a democracy is that you represent a constituency, and you sit down and talk with your constituent who is tell you, this is what its like to be living in poverty. And democracy, i think, is an excellent thing to bring up. Because you were mentioning that this is a what was happening during the clinton period, this was a period of low Government Intervention. And in fact, it was a the longest expansion wed had in recent economic history. And a rising tide was lifting all boats. So what you get to worry about or what you should worry about is intergenerational mobility. I certainly agree with you there. And what we worry about with inequality is something happening like what happened after the german hyperinflation, or going down the path of zimbabwe, where you had extremes of wealth and a constant fraying of the social fabric. Thats what we really have to worry about, and we need to worry about it for now and we need to worry about it for later. I want to take a look at the poverty rates here. This is part of it. Your point is, i dont care if the rich get the whole plate of food, because we could grow the plate of food. But those poverty rates, clearly, a big high at a point before Government Intervention, right . That intervention there is about the creation of the social safety net. You asked the question about whether or not, you know, the Great Society works. It certainly works to lift people out of poverty, but then it starts kind of flatlining, not with the Great Society, but afterward, at the point we start to dismantle the Great Society program. Lets think about right now with whats happening with the unemployment situation. You cannot fix the income inequality gap the there are not jobs. The economy has consistently undershot hopes, fears, recoveries, and what not. So you have to have economic policies that create conditions for there to be jobs. We havent done that. Im down with nthat. Lets take a moment and listen to eric cantor during the s. N. A. P. Vote. Lets listen to eric cantor for a moment. The truth is, anyone subjected to the work requirements under this bill, who are ablebodied under 50, will only will not be denied benef benefits if only they are willing to sign up for the opportunity for work. Okay, so, there isnt work your point is, there are, in fact, an insufficient number of jobs. In the meantime, while we dont have enough jobs, we have Republican Leaders say to us, you better work or else you cant eat. This is madness. The government does not create jobs. It can well, they can, but you have to create conditions and real incentives for private sector to create jobs. And i think one of the things thats missing from the conversation right now is globalization and the impact thats had on american workers. Because now were not just competing with each other, were competing with china, competing with but globalization should not create a situation where teachers are laid off, where firemen are laid off. In fact, globalization ought to increase the number of teachers and firemen and all those things in our and as you pointed out before, its been Public Sector shrinkage that has created an ongoing and its putting your resources in places like teachers, so youve got the flexibility of the workforce. When youre talking about mobility, one of the things that stopped the last income gap, that shrunk it, was the fact that americans were moving around the country, like no other country on earth will move to where the jobs are. Now, do we have the ability to move between sectors . For that you need support or just move stay right with me, because were going to go this question of teachers and education. Well take a quick break. As soon as we come back, ill hone this on how these trends in growing equality are being felt in a very real, concrete way in philadelphia in the schools. Wisest kid in the whole world . How can i be a more fun mom . Hmmm. Can you dance . Bum ba bum ba bum bum ba bum ba bum no. No . Can you make campbells chicken noodle soup . Yes [ wisest kid ] every can has 32 feet of slurpable noodles. Now thats fun. Mom, youre awesome. Oh yeah bum ba bum ba bum [ gong ] [ wisest kid ] mm mm good make my mark i wawith pride. Ork. Create moments of value. 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Nearly 4,000 teachers and support staff were laid off over the summer, that includes all 270 School Counselors in the district, even though 1,000 were hired back, including 126 counselors. In philadelphia, its about asking teachers to teach and students to learn with a whole lot less. Joining me now from philadelphia is daniel denver, a reporter at the Philadelphia City paper, where hes been reporting on his citys education crisis. Nice to have you, danielle. Thanks, melissa. So thecalled doomsday budget, its now a reality in philadelphia. We have reports of class sizes of up to 40, one nurse for 1,500 students. Arts, libraries, music, decimated. And a single itinerant guidance counselor responsible for eight students and 2,800 students. Its a disaster. I want to play just for a moment, president obama during his second inaugural, said that we should measure our country by what happens to a poor child in this country. So lets listen for one moment. We are true to our creed when a little girl born into the bleakest poverty knows that she has the same chance to succeed as anybody else, because she is an american. She is free. And she is equal, not just in the eyes of god, but also in our own. So, how are we measuring up, if thats the standard by which we ought to be measuring ourselves as a nation . Well, republicans like our governor, tom corbett, see this as some abstract philosophical debate over the role of government, of society, but these are some of the poorest, most marginalized children in the United States. And their Public School system is being sacrificed on the altar of the most meanspirited, antipoor people in politics. Its outrageous. Daniel, i want to come out to our panel for a minute. Before we went, we had this conversation about government doesnt create jobs, but it does create these jobs. Guidance counselors and teachers work for local government. And the idea that we as taxpayers are underwriting the waltons. Were not underwriting the education of poor children to generate the kind of mobility that, matt, you said is key. This seems criminal to me. So the resources being shifted the to parents and being shifted to local communities. So educate yourself. If theres one person, one guidance counselor for 2,800 kids, thats absolutely ridiculous. So this goes back to your commercial in terms of food and helping children to develop. I dont want to teach these dumb kids that a s. N. A. P. Cut is going to create. Because theyre going to be hungry. And we have a lot of research now, using randomized experiments the that show that kids and people have lower iqs when they are hungry. Weve seen this in many places around the world. Their iqs are going to be lower. Are we prepared to subsidize them 20 or 30 years from now . Im not prepared to teach them. Daniel, you have been, in your reporting, doing a lot of work around gun violence. It feels to me, we were talking about this on the show yesterday, that these questions of poverty, a lack of sense of mobility that would be provided by good schools, and then now what would be increased hunger in these communities is also connected to urban violence. That ties in in a number of ways. First of all, you have philadelphia of one of the highest rates of gun violence in the country. You have students who are losing friends and family members to gun violence in the Philadelphia School district, with great frequency, and theyll have no School Guidance counselors to turn to. And in the long run, people are seeing it as a question of priority and government spending. Our state is spending hundreds of millions of dollars to construct a new prison just outside of philadelphia. And whatever the reasons for that are, its very difficult for people in philadelphia to not feel like that prison is being constructed for students that they know will fail and that theyve let down. So these are the students that lisa is talking about here. If their iq comes down, if theyre already dealing with difficult circumstances, if theyre coping with ptsd that comes from living in violent communities, we know how we will subsidize them. Well subsidize them through the jails. You talked at one point about the lineups outside the apple stores this week. And i sometimes think, what if we put a tablet in the hands of every poor kid . Weve not seen a lot of innovation in the school system. You think about, we talk about food, but i also think about the importance of getting technology, some of these online courses. Theres so much innovation we could be outing into innovation. Im down with tablets, but my biggest concern, there are books in these schools. If i could put a book in every kids hand, i would be really excited. But the reality of whats happening with budgets right now, how do we make the Education System more accessible. And were ignoring the poorest kids, were ignoring them on multiple levels. But were not spending less money on them. Perstudent spending on education, k12 in this country has gone up by 2 1 2 times while results have been like this. But weve had this debate granted, but you and i have had this debate before about all of the invisible spending that is happening for middle class and wealthy kids, but parents are subsidizing it, right . So that spending is happening in the summer programs and in the, buying the tablets, and providing the guidance counseling, that wealthy and middle class parents can do. Its not really true that theyre getting an education that costs the same, because its just being subsidized from the private sector. Why are we getting such worse results for so much more money . Thats a question and its a structural question. And, i mean, i think its inaccurate to say that people who critique this dont care about poor kids. Actually, they are focused on it like laser beam. They have different ideas than teachers unions do about how to deliver those results. Danielle, ill give you the last word on this. It is a structural problem, but the gentleman has the nature of that structural problem entirely wrong. For the past ten years, the Philadelphia School district, one of, you know, the poorest, segregated district has been a laboratory for all of these sorts of free market reforms. Every student that attends a charter school, which a third of the district, costs the district 7,000. Even the, you know, the statecontrolled School Reform commissions own superintendent acknowledges that charters are bleeding the School District dry, even though they have completely mixed performance results and are rife with corruption. I mean, philadelphia is ground zero for corporate reform experimentati experimentation. It has failed. I challenge you that new orleans is, in fact, ground zero. Detroit okay, but, listen, daniel, were going to stay on exactly these issues. Coming up in about two weeks, ill do my student town hall. Well have some young people from philadelphia. Thank you for your continued reporting. And when it comes to politics, this may be an off year for elections, but that doesnt mean that there isnt a very wellorchestrated and very Loud Campaign going on. What all the yelling is about, next. [ woman ] if you have the audacity to believe your Financial Advisor should focus on your longterm goals, not their shortterm agenda. [ woman ] if you have the nerve to believe that cookie cutters should be for cookies, not your investment strategy. If you believe in the sheer brilliance of a simple explanation. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do face time and think time make a difference. Join us. [ male announcer ] at edward jones, its how we make sense of investing. Jron im sorry, who are you . Nt awe all like . Es, jc im your coworker cmon guys, im driving. Hey, you guys comfortable . Its bestinclass rear legroom. No way wed fit this comfortably in your car, dan. Ron its ron. Jc ron. And the passat has nocharge scheduled carefree maintenance. Wish stevens had carefree maintenance. Right . That guy is so uptight. Stevens im stevens. Jc ron stevens. Right. Vo right now get the 2013 passat for 0 apr for 60 months with optional down payment match of up to 500. I dont miss out. You sat out most of our game yesterday asthma doesnt affect my job. You were out sick last week. My asthma doesnt bother my family. You coughed all through our date night i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. What did you say . How about every day . Coping with asthma isnt controlling it. Test your level of control at asthma. Com, then talk to your doctor. There may be more you could do for your asthma. If you thought you wouldnt have to deal with another hardcore Campaign Season until the 2014 midterms, think again. On sunday, former u. S. Treasury secretary Larry Summers called his buddy, president barack obama with some bad news. Summers withdrew his name for consideration for Federal Reserve chairman. When this news was revealed to the world, the markets said, amen on monday, the Dow Jones Industrial average shot up almost 118 points and Standard Poors was up 9. 62 points. While the celebration was partly over summers departure from consideration, it was also over who that left the door open for. And many in washington, d. C. , are yelling for yellin janet yellin. Senate democrats were campaigning for her to be fed chair as early as july, when about a third of them signed a letter not only praising yellin, but urging president obama to nominate her. The fed chair is one of the most important nominations the president will make. Its a nomination that matters to all of us, because the fed chair is the most influential voice on the committee that could either speed up or slow down u. S. Economic growth. And because yellin offers a prospect of continuity from fed chair Ben Bernankes reign, which includes stimulateoriented policy, that makes those who already have very, very happy. So coming up, more on why the campaign to nominate janet yellin is important for the economy and history. [ agent smith ] ive Found Software that intrigues me. It appears its an agent of good. [ agent smith ] ge software connects patients to nurses to the right machines while dramatically reducing waiting time. [ telephone ringing ] now a waiting room is just a room. [ static warbles ] [ telephone ringing ] because what you dont know canm hurt you. Urance,a room. What if you didnt know that its smart to replace washingmachine hoses every five years . What if you didnt know that you might need extra coverage for more expensive items . And what if you didnt know that teen drivers are four times more likely to get into an accident . sup the more you know, the better you can plan for whats ahead. Talk to farmers and get smarter about your insurance. We are farmers bum pa dum, bum bum bum bum so now that Larry Summers took himself out of the way, the campaign to get janet yellin nominated as the fed chair is on. According to the New York Times, on thursday, even the white house joined the campaign by calling senators on capitol hill, telling them to get ready to defend yellin if she is, in fact, the president s pick and comes under attack. If nominated, yellins odds of confirmation should be strong, given that she already serves as vice chair of the board of governors of the fed, but, hey, you know, you just dont ever know with a recovering economy and congressional obstructionism. And one thing is for sure. Were about to learn a whole lot more about who janet yellin is. So what do yall think about miss yellin . Shes a brilliant economist. And as a macroeconomist, there are too few of us. And shes made it to the top. Shes done everything right. She should be the next fed chair. And youre not just speaking sort of randomly, you have some experience with her as a student, is that right, or as a colleague . She was at berkeley. Her husband, who is george ackalof, who was my first macro professor at berkeley, and i know her from my interaction at the white house. And she holds her on. In international settings. So this whole notion of her not having enough gravitas, i think, is absolutely outrageous. Shes done everything she could to be prepared for or anybody could, to be prepared for this position. So i think she should be the next fed chair. And i think its monumental, its absolutely criminal that a developed country like the u. S. Does not yet have a woman at the helm. Its only russia were behind russia, again so we need to stop doing that. We need to get on board and make sure that she is the next and i dont think the fact that shes a woman is really the issue, too. I think it is the fact that shes been a brilliant forecaster, and she is respected. And this is a job have every eyebrow raised, people read the tea leaves and say, whats the central banker think . And this was the cover of politico this morning, the lead story, is this question that yellin getting confirmed may be much less important or much less difficult than what shes going to face once she gets there. In part because every hiccup of the fed chair impacts markets. And theres two other things i really like about yellin. One, shes never worked on wall street, and two, shes really been on the record as seeing the need for more banking regulation. And i think thats critical, as were still dealing with the fallout of the financial crisis that we get somebody in this chair that understands that we need real change. So if we connect back to our earlier conversation equality, does the fed chair have any impact on those big issues . It does, because of its dual mandate. Its supposed to minimize unemployment and supposed to make sure that inflation rates are low. Shes thought a lot about unemployment. And i think many people have talked about her knowing the human side. Im not sure i actually like that. Because, you know, women and economics are supposed to know the human side. Soft and friendly. She may as well be a home economist. Its not absolutely the same thing. But i think that when you have our last conversation in washington, my last conversation in washington, when i was at the white house, was with her. And i was grateful for that, because we were talking about the outstanding agenda for economics and bringing that back to policy. And she was asking some really deep questions that we have to answer. And it wasnt like shes been a functionary, a democrat. You know, what are the right questions we should be asking . What are the right data . We dont have the right data to answer these questions. So we went through the laundry list. This is a person who is thinking deeply. And thats what you want to have as a fed chair. And a person who can act as well. She holds her own. Shes no shrinking violet. Theres a connection between what the Federal Reserve does, obviously, and income inequality. There is an argument to be made that the past five years, where weve been printing money, repeatedly, that is effectively a wealth transfer. And its in the wrong direction. Because it gooses the stock market, it makes all of our savings. We have 10,000 in a bank account, youre to the getting any interest on that thing, but then it goes to investment banks and everybody else and people who are invested in the stock market. Thats the wrong direction, ultimately. And so the question would be, will she lean into that direction further, going forward. But you have to be very careful, because i think so much of this job is about confidence, and thats one thing youve noticed. When a fed chairman speaks out of turn, the markets can panic we saw this with bernanke, repeatedly. You did. You need someone who can convey confidence, who seems to have a handle on where the economy is going. And youre right, can we keep printing money forever . Of course, we cant. But how do you try to make it a soft landing . I want to go a little bit more on this point that we have no time. Because it does strike me as interesting that the markets respond to her, and to the notion that shes likely to be fed chair, by moving up, but then progressives are also sort of celebrating, oh, this and i think somebodys getting this wrong. Like, it cant both be that this is great for the haves and this is great for the thhavenots, could it . It could be. A stable economy is one that could be better for all, especially if Economic Growth means that all boats would be lifted. Now, with income inequality, now, theres a lot more that we have to Pay Attention to. But thats not the Central Banks job. What weve within doing in the last five years is extraordinary this should be fiscal policy. Theres the people who are across the way, the u. S. Capital, this should be the ones doing all of. But you just made mental that perhaps there doesnt have to be class warfare. We could just come up together. Thank you for joining us today. Also, coming up, were going to play chicken. Why chickens raised here in the u. S. Could soon be sent halfway around the world to china and then back again before they make it to your table. Plus, the right and wrong way to teach kids about slavery. You wont believe what some students are being put through. There is, of course, more nerdland at the top of the hour. [ phil ] when you have joint pain and stiffness. 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Ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biologic medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. Its delicious. So now weve turned her toffee into a business. My goal was to take an idea and make it happen. Im janet long and i formed my Toffee Company through legalzoom. I never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. Go to legalzoom. Com today and make your business dream a reality. At legalzoom. Com we put the law on your side. And make your business dream a reality. Still doesnt feel real. Our time together was. So short. Well, since you had progressives total loss coverage, we were able to replace your totaled bike with a brandnew one. The tank, the exhaust. Well, she looks just like roxy you know, ill bet shes in a better place now. Im sure she is. [ ethereal music plays ] [ motorcycle revving ] getting you back on a brandnew bike. Now, thats progressive. We go, go, we dont have to go solo fire, fire, you can take me higher take me to the mountains, start a revolution hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution brandnew season, keep it in motion cause the rhyme is the reason break through, man, it doesnt matter who youre talking to [ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. Oh, my parents will be here any minute. Canned soup . No way. Mmm this is delicious katie. Its not bad for canned soup, right . Pfft [ laughs ] you nearly had us there. Canned soup. [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] so good, theyll think its homemade. Try campbells homestyle soup. Mm mm good. Welcome back. Im melissa harrisperry. Why did the chicken cross the pacific ocean. To get to your dinner plate. Your nuggets and your patties to the u. S. For the first time. As long as the chickens are raised and slaughtered in the u. S. Or canada first. Okay, so that trip is about 7,000 miles each way, measuring from los angeles to hong kong, and will take at least two weeks each way by ship. Without counting the time and miles the chicken takes to get from the top chicken producing states in the southeast to los angeles, thats a 14,000mile, onemonth round trip minimum for Chicken Nuggets. And yet, somehow, that is economically and politically feasible enough that the usda decided to accept chinaprocessed poultry for the first time ever. So i ask again, why did the chicken cross the sea . Joining me is tommy from washington, d. C. At food and water watch. Matt welch, editor and chief of reason. Gordon challenge author of the coming collapse of china. Diane brady, Senior Editor at bloomberg businessweek, and lisa cooke, assistant professor of economic and economic relations at Michigan State university. Thanks to all of you for being here. Let me start, gordon, why does this make sense financially to send the chickens around the world . This doesnt make sense financially, for the reasons you mentioned. And i think whats happening here is essentially these four facilities in china are going to be buying some american chicken. But theyre also going to be buying chinese birds that are smuggled through the back door. And if you want to hear about whats happening in the chinese food chain, you just do not like this story. Look, you know, chinese chickens are raised in millions, literally, millions of farms across china. Including, you know, in my parents hometown. This is not a good story, because there is no control over this. And those are going to end up in the United States. Because this is china, which has really very little control over its food chain. So tony, tell me, whats the politics here . It seems, this is about beef, right . I just want to make sure that folks understand that part of whats going on here is our desire for that market, and then sort of a back and forth thats been going on for a decade, right . Thank you, melissa, for having us on. This goes back to december of 2003, when we had a case of mad cow. Where one cow in Washington State was diagnosed with mad cow. And as a consequence of that finding, a number of our export markets dried up. They stopped importing beef for fear that our beef was contaminated with bse. And so and china was one of the countries that stopped importing our beef. So in 2004, when the usda started the slow and arduous process of reopening our beef exporting around the country around the world, rather, they went to china and china said, look, you know, were willing to reopen the beef trade with you all, provided that you start taking some of our chicken. And so, usda then started the process to look at the chinese poultry processing system. This, for me, is tough. Like, ive got to tell you, i was just saying, i may never eat again after doing the research around this. This idea that we raise chickens in really disturbing conditions here in the u. S. , we then slaughter them, we then are going to put them on a ship, send them around the world, and have them turned into nuggets, which we are mostly apparently going to feed to our children. And you just raised the point, when you look at whats happening with chicken here in the u. S. , it already gives you pause. And this is the lowest point of the food chain, really. The processed chicken is not like the beautiful, tender breasts that you get. I think the critical question here is, will it be labeled . If you force campbells soup and mcdonalds to say, processed in china, that will have a major effect on their desire to have chicken processed there. This is a marketbased solution that says, okay, you have to do what you have to do, but American Consumers are not going to want chineseprocessed chicken so youll have to label it. Thats going to leave all of these folks on t s opting out. But i do wonder i dont believe these sorts of policies have no economic benefit. Is there some reason, lisa, that makes sense from a macroeconomic perspective, beyond that now we open up the china market for doing this particular set of processes . I think that turns out to be more of a political question. The beef handlers, the beef lobbying is more powerful than the chicken lobby in the u. S. , apparently. Because why would we want this to be opened so widely . And i think theres going to be a big backlash. And i think the other presumption is that wages are going to remain stagnant in china and that this will make sense in the long run. And we know that wages are going up in china, and this is not going to be economically viable. I mean, so, theres something going on here that an economist wont understand, just on its face. It clearly has to be economically viable to some degree right now, or else it wouldnt be thats what im saying. Were talking about the longterm. China is cheap. Labor there is cheap. They cut corners. Its not always going to be cheap. One of the good things about international trade, as much as this has made me not ever want to even think about nuggets again. And im only going to buy the ones from my daughter that say, this was definitely not processed in china. One of the best things about international trade, ultimately, not only does it make both sides richer, especially the poorer country, but they inevitably have to start raising their standards, or else theyll not be able to sell, while our collective tastes in america will continue to improve, hopefully in such a way that one of these days, well actually respond to that. Was it a mcdonalds or burger king ad, what part of the chicken is the nugget . Tony, is that a reasonable sort of its a marketbased solution, right . One is a marketbased solution that says, as long as there is an american taste over and against chineseprocessed food, we wont have to worry too much about it happening here. But also, if there is this market, if theres an economic incentive, then the processing sort of conditions improve this china. Well, this is the problem. We will not know, we will not know. Consumers will not know that they are consuming chicken thats withbeen processed in ch. The current country of origin labeling operations have a massive loophole. If the chicken is raw, then it has to be labeled in the supermarket as to the country of origin. But once its processed, its cooked or breaded, it loses its country of origin labeling identity. And so thats a major, major problem. The bottom line here is, china has always wanted to export its own poultry to the United States. And this is a first step. This was the first step that the Bush Administration approved in 2006, for china to at least start processing or cooking u. S. Or canadian poultry and sending it back. And, actually, between 2006 and 2007, china did have the opportunity to certify processing plants in china, under that scheme. They never did. Why . Because theyre waiting for the u. S. To approve the china slaughtering processes, so that they can export their own poultry to the United States. Stay right there. Thats exactly what i want to talk about when we come back. I want to talk about a sort of tale of two chickens. The New York Times piece that we first were reading around this, the sentencing that had me most worried is, no usda inspectors will be present at the plants. Ill say that one more time. No usda inspectors will be present at the plants. A tale of two chickens when we come back. Im kind of seeing a. Some kind of. This is. An alien species. Reality check a lot of 4g lte coverage maps dont really look like much at all. I see the aleutian islands. Looks like a duck. It looks like. America. Ish. Thats a map. Thats a map of the United States. Check the map. Verizons 4g lte is the most reliable, and in more places than any other 4g network. Trade in your old device and trade up to americas most reliable network. Ive got the good one i got verizon thats powerful. Verizon. Tomato florentine soup, it took a little time to get it just right. [ ding ] but finally, it happened. Perfection. At progresso, weve got a passion for quality, because youve got a passion for taste. Bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his Small Business. Take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorns Small Business earns double miles on every purchase every day. Produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less . Ahh, oh [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. Heres your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark Business Card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. Choose double miles or 2 cash back on every purchase every day. Whats in your wallet . [ crows ] now wheres the Snooze Button . [ crows ] forty ti mes. Rows ] thats how often a group of House Republicans have voted against obamacare, just to prove their allegiance to their partys right wing. Okay theyve said their piece. But now theyve gone even further. Threatening to shut down the government if obamacare isnt dismantled. It could disrupt Social Security and veterans benefits, hurt job growth and undermine our economic recovery tell these House Republicans enough already we were talking earlier this morning about haves and havenots. As you know, this has everything to do with chicken. The haves have delicious chicken. According to a mindboggling New York Times report, chickens being raised on an amish farm in pennsylvania are being fed nothing but scraps from some of new yorks most wellregarded, expensive restaurants. According to this new record, this new chicken is so delicious, it reportedly brought one chef to the verge of tears. The havenotes have another kind of chicken. According to the Pew Charitable trust, most chickens in the u. S. Is mass produced in crowded factory farms and the birds often pumped full of antibiotics that lead to drugresistant infections in humans. Now some of that chicken is going to come on through china, the same china where just this year, meat sold as mutton was found to be from fox, ducks, or even rats. They were all dunked toxic chemicals in order to disguise it and more than 10,000 dead pigs were clogging a shanghai river. The chicken that china is already sending here in the form of dog treats, well, according to the fda, 500 u. S. Dogs have died in the past few years after eating chicken jerky made in china. So, okay, gordon, what i read about china, it has the largest gdp, the Fastest Growing economy, and that the reason that we want to do this kind of trade is because it is good for us economically, but then i see this, and it feels like Upton Sinclair and the jungle. And arent we moving ourselves back to the 20th century level of food processing. This is really very bad. The chinese always have these food scandals. They always say, its not going to happen again, and three months later, it occurs. And you have all these different types of scandals. This is really a problem, because they do not control their food chain. Its communism. How can they not like in a really serious way, im not a communist, but i do like a little Government Intervention in my world. I am actually a little shocked that a country that has such a massive government cant control this. Its the problem with chinas communist system, which is very interesting in the sense that it is supposed to be top down, but really its more bottom up, and you have these local officials who are able to avoid things. For instance, you talked about no inspectors in these plants. That is absolutely critical, because youre going to see local officials, because they want to make money, are going to do all sorts of things at these four facilities, because no one at the usda is there. But even if they put a single or so inspector, those guys are going to get bribed easily. This is really a problem. Its just endemic. An important point about communism, its terrible about information. It mangles information, because theres no pricing mechanisms the anywhere. So, you know, youre not going to see development of whole foods, which is great about sourcing everything in a food chain in a communist country. I think this goes to the inequality question. Tony, when we look at the price of chicken, if you have conventionally raised chickens, youre talking about a dollar per pound or so, but this certified organic, that you would go get at the whole foods, 2. 77 a pound. If we get the marketbased solution of labeling it, labeling it then assumes that everyone has an equal capacity to make choice here. Right. And you know, i think this is going to be a race to the bottom. I think that youre raising a very good point, that first of all, i dont know of a chicken shortage in this country. We slaughter 9 billion chicken a year, with a b. 9 billion chickens a year. The usda recently had to go on to the open market to buy a surplus of chicken for the School Lunch Program because there was an excess of chicken. So why are we going to be importing chicken from china . It just does not make any economic sense. I wanted to raise a point that one of the previous speakers mentioned, is the fact that, yeah, you have a communist system, but what usda has consistently found in their inspections of these chinese poultry facilities is that the companies themselves inspect themselves. Its a selfregulation system. They do not have independent government inspectors in those plants. Kind of american banks. Absolutely. So thats been thats one of the conditions that the usda has made. That china has to have its own inspectors in these plants. You know, the thing, why do you do you go to china . Its for cost. A lot of the food scandals have been cutting corners to reduce the cost. That was the pet food when they were mixing in essentially the equivalent of industrial solvent. Thats the big issue in china is. Yaw go there was you want to cut more pennies off. So the amount of pressure weve put on china to deliver cheap food, cheap goods, thats why you see workers being underpaid. I think its important to force some level of labeling, because it does tell people something about the philosophy of the Companies Using this chicken. Whether its in your soup or your nuggets or whatever, that they felt it was worth their while to go 7,000 miles. But the inequality nature of that. Lets say that mcdonalds decides and i dont lets unnamed food chain makes a decision to use meat that has been processed chicken thats been processed in china and they label it as such. So then midtowners in new york can say, all right, im on tpti out of that. But what we know about food deserts, what we know about the availability of food for poor people, it doesnt matter if unnamed groups say its bad, day dont have the option to opt out of buying pit it. And people in china know of this. Chinese consumers are incredibly worried about the safety of the food in their own country. There is pressure coming from both sides on this. Theyre not just simply passively looking at this. They care about whats happening, because their kids are dying and theyre getting affected. And chinese consumers, when they get the chance, will buy foreign products and even leave china to why their food if they have the opportunity. And this is somehow, the fda, just, the agriculture department, just completely ignored that. That this is a problem. And its endemic to the system for the reasons that you mentioned and you mentioned. So weve been talking about usda not making good policy. I think the other group im interested in here is osha, who make our worker policies. When we come back, well talk not just about how bad the chicken plants are for the chickens with, but how bad chicken plants are for the workers. When we come back. For a strong bag that grips the can. Get glad forceflex. Small change, big difference. Her busy saturday begins with back pain, when. Hey pam, you should take advil. Why . You can take four advil for all day relief. 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Hey, can i borrow your boat this weekend . No. [ male announcer ] share more. Save more. At t mobile share for business. Weve been talking about the potential food safety problems now that china can export processed chicken to the u. S. Under the new rules, the chicken must have been raised and slaughtered in the u. S. Or canada in order to be imported back here after processing in china. But the way we raise poultry here, and we are the Worlds Largest producer of chicken for meat, is problematic itself. And the chickens arent the only ones who suffer in industrial chicken operations. The human workers also suffer. Some major chicken producers who have outsourced their jobs to labor contractors, slashing income and benefits in the process, and the work itself is grueling. Employees work on assembly lines, processing up to 140 chickens per minute. And the usda has proposed increasing that limit to 175 chickens per minute. Tom, i want to bring you back in here, because i think as much as were kind of tough on china, the fact is in alabama and georgia, in many of our Southern States with low labor participation, the experience of workers in poultry plants is pretty horrifying. Yeah, it is. And food and water watch has been working with some of the worker safety advocates, for example, the Southern Poverty Law Center did a wonderful report earlier this year that was entitled, unsafe at this speed. Where they interviewed some 300 poultry workers who have chronic diseases now, carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, that have crippled them. And there are no safety standards. There are no ergonomic standards for these workers in these poultry facilities. And as you pointed out, usda wants to increase the line speed to 175 birds per minute. And they have been reluctant, flatout reluctant to deal with this workers safety issue as part of the new scheme. Yeah, this is from that southern poverty law report, that osha does not specifically regular Utility Health and safety of workers in poultry processing. And the processing line, whisks birds through the plant moves at a punishing speed, over three quarters of the workers says that the speed makes their work more dangerous and that plant workers, many of whom are immigrants, are often treated as disposal by their employers. I think this is going to be an important experiment with respect to globalization. So how cheap do we really want our food . Food is already too cheap. The price of food is not high enough. Were saying that we need more inspectors, that we want a safe food supply and food chain, but what are we putting on the table for it . Thats with we have to ask. Its too cheap. Were addicted to cheap food. Didnt we talk at the beginning of the food about food stamps and people going hungry. There is attention there. I dont think you can say that food is too cheap. Theyre not mutually exclusive. We can do both. Its not as if there are two goals and they cant be reached mul simultaneously. You can certainly work on worker safety and sourcing and all this kind of stuff. But i dont think saying that food is too cheap is the right way. It is too cheap. But this is the constant challenge, right . This is the challenge of obesity being connected to poverty in this country. And that processed food is very inexpensive, but then your organic, you know, amish bird that only eats truffles or something is but i take this point. Like, we just said, we need food stamps, we feed to make food readily available to poor people. And then were saying, but, wait a minute, the way that were processing food in order to get it cheap enough for poor people to buy it is, in fact, inherently problematic for all of us. And look at the fast food worker strikes this year. That ties back as well. When youve got Chicken Nuggets for a dollar, essentially, youre doing that in part by the cost of whos producing the food, whos serving the food. So, i do think that when you look at how little were willing to pay for protein and food in this country, it does get back to the but is the cream here were acting as though the cost of food would have to come out of workers. What if it came out of the massive profits, most poor people shop at walmart. The walmart family is six, seven, eight and nine on a list of the top ten richest people in this country. What if we subsidized it from them . I dont think taxing ba inin billionaires youve got to be putting better standards in place for how people is paid, how this food is processed. The conditions in the factories. That costs money. Thats where you have to force which is why you say that to china, so you dont have these problems. If all you have to do is look at china, when you want to see, when you have a system that doesnt have a government that enforces certain minimum standards, because then you get all the dislocations that exist there. And they are just numerous. Many of which we have not covered today. So i can understand, you know, why you would want to have less regulation, but on certain things, you just need to have it. And food, i dont know if its too cheap or not, but its a point where it is cheap because we are not doing certain things that are absolutely necessary. It is worth noting again, that that great piece of muck raking scholarship that changed what american journalism is, was about the connection between labor standards and food standards and Upton Sinclair, the jungle. Feel free, go buy it and read it this week. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you. Up next, the School Assignment outraging so many parents, including me. Mine was earned in djibouti, africa. 2004. Vietnam in 1972. 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Starting at 49 dollars. One afternoon this spring, my daughter called to say she didnt want to complete her homework. This wasnt adolescent laziness, she was disturbed by what she was being asked to do. Which was, pretend you are a slave who has decided to escape from louisiana to chicago. Go on Google Chrome and find the distance you have to travel and map an escape route for you and your family. The assignment was adapted from an online curriculum, escape from slavery, and the more i learned about the assignment, the more angry i became. Pretending to be an enslaved person is not an emotionally neutral experience. When ive talked with my daughter about slavery, ive tried to express the extreme human injustice and intense suffering that millions experienced. When a child is asked to be pretend to be escaping slavery, its not just about mapping a route, its about the horror and terror and likely death and deep injustice. Imagine asking a student to pretend theyre on the 80th floor of the World Trade Center when a plane strikes on september 11 s 1th and then to building plans to map an escape route. To do that would dishonor and trivialize the experience of the victims of 9 11. Also, its important to appreciate how discussions of slavery are fraught for africanamerican students in predominantly white classrooms. We are directly related to men and women who were held in intergenerational chattel bondage in this country. This is not a theoretical exercise, its very much a personal story. AfricanAmerican Children may not to share their discomfort, because they fear being teased by classmates because of their personal connection to slavery. All that means that slavery needs to be taught, but it must be taught in a situation that allows complexity and humanity to be at the forefront. Managing the effects of o this supposedly inclusive history curriculum has been a challenge. But this week i learned while i was battling an assignment that turned slavery into a soulless mapping exercise, another set of parents were dealing with their daughters class field trip that made a lesson about slavery into a traumatic experience that included being chased and threatened and called racial names. When we come back, ill talk to those parents. Were going to try to understand the effects of slavery reenactments as educational tools. [ muffled noises ] oops. Ow. Sorry. [ baby crying ] [ female announcer ] new pampers. Unlike ordinary diapers with 2 layers, pampers have 3 absorbent layers, to stay up to 3 times drier, so babies can sleep soundly all night. Wishing you love, sleep and play. Pampers. How old is the oldest person youve known . We gave people a sticker and had them show us. We learned a lot of us have known someone whos lived well into their 90s. And thats a great thing. But even though were living longer, one thing that hasnt changed much is the official retirement age. The question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. I get out a lot. Except when its too cold. Like the last three weekends. Asthma doesnt affect my job. You missed the meeting again last week it doesnt affect my family. Your coughing woke me up again. I wish youd take me to the park. I dont use my rescue inhaler a lot. Depends on what you mean by a lot. Coping with asthma isnt controlling it. Test your level of control at asthma. Com, then talk to your doctor. There may be more you could do for your asthma. Turns out my Daughters School in louisiana is not the only one employing slavery reenactments as parts of the curriculum. Our next guest had an even more troubling experience with their school. Their daughter endured being packed together with other students in dark room to simulate being in a slave ship and hiding in their rooms from their white masters. The 12yearold heard statements like nword, if you can read, theres a problem. And dumb, darkskinned negro person, how dare you look at me. And, youre not a person, youre property. It was all part of a field trip last november. And the bakers say they werent informed that the underground railroad reenactment was part of the curriculum for the fourday trip. They have filed a complaint with the Connecticut Commission for opportunities and addressed the school board with their concerns. Their daughter now attends another school and weve reached out to the hartford magnate Trinity College economy and the hartford School District and both have offered no comment. Joining me now are sandra and james baker, and Khalil Mohammad from the khamberg center. Thank you for reaching out to me and being here today. Tell me about this field trip in november of 2013. Sure. So the field trip was with an Organization Called natures classroom, and when i heard the name of it and read a ribt about it, i thought they would be going and learning which side of the tree moss grows on. They stayed overnight during the whole time. When she came back, she got in the car and immediately told my wife what had happened. Started telling her what had happened. My wife called me and said, this is not good. She tried to keep herself calm, but our daughter told us the whole story in her own words, the things that she experienced. And then we proceeded to try to talk to the School Administration about it. Let me read, as a matter of what we do on air, let me read a portion of the statement from dr. John santos, the executive director of the natures classroom. A very belong statement. Well put the whole statement up on our website. This is a small portion. Natures classroom does not condone the use of the nword. We would taken immediate action if we had known of this concern. We have began an investigation and this investigation is ongoing. My main thought in reading that is, well, thats not really the biggest problem here, right . The use of the nword or not is a small portion of what the problem is here. What do you how would you identify as what you see is the biggest problem with this reenactment . Well, number one, it minimizes the africanamerican experience in this country. I found it insulting. One of the comments that was made to my daughter after it was over by the facilitators was, now you know what it feels like to be bullied. Okay, because slavery was bullying . Yeah, exactly. It minimized the experience. You know, khalil, you run a perhaps the most Important National repository around black culture. We want our children to learn, not just our children, we want white children, all American Children to learn about slavery. We want them to learn about resistance. We want them to learn about the und the underground railroad. But whether its using a Google Chrome map, to map their way to freedom, as if thats what they did, wient on their google, or that their experience was a bullying experience, i know your heart is in the right place, but this is the wrong way. It is the wrong way. But the problem really first begins with the fact that this country has never taken full account of the centrality of the experience of the experience of enslaved africans. First of all, our very notion of liberty is attached to slavery. Not just because king george oppressed the columnists, but because the daytoday reality of people treated as property stood as a constant reminder of how precious freedom really was. And so, its built into our dna, this contrasting metaphor between liberty and slavery. But also, the economic footprint of slavery made america the wealthiest nation in the world and shortened the time for that development. So weve got to start dealing with the importance of slavery at the very beginning. Its got to be infused in what we learned in american history. So therefore, it cant be some random wednesday on some random field trip, where all of a sudden you drop down and youre in the middle of the underground railroad reenactment. Youve got to begin with childrens literature, so you could use, for example, scholastics, henry box brown, who tells the story of henry brown, who melds himself to free, just for the opening moment for both the agency of these human beings, who were captured from countries in africa, who brought culture and language with them, whose humanity was bigger than actual the experience of being a slave. He was trying to reconnect with his family. Thats just the beginning. Then you layer in the difficulties, the pain, the trauma. But you just dont do it on some wednesday afternoon on a field trip. And this, you know, we were talking a bit in the break. For me, this is one of the challenges. And i dont mean to like have a pity part for middle class black families. But it is one of the black challenges, when we are faced with School Systems that are deeply segregated and often, where equality of educational outcomes is also related to race of school, in ways that are troubling. So often, we try to opt into the best possible school we can for our kids. But then the reading, writing, and arithmetic can sometimes be counter to their very spirits. Like, i know my daughter, very close in age to yours, 11 1 2, is still on a daily basis dealing with how that made her feel about her school that that happened in that space. Right. Because she trusted her teachers, we trusted her teachers, and shes the type of kid whos going to do what she respects her teachers, so shes going to do what they ask her to do. Yes. And they spent three days having fun before they even brought the kids to the field to do the experiment. So the kids had no indication that this was going to happen. They surprised them. And i just want to point out that these are children the average child is 10 that goes on this field trip. So between the ages of 10 and 12. And no ones talked about the developmental appropriateness of kids being in an reenactment or the psychological impact that the statement from natures classroom went on to read that students are always able to remove themselves from the activity or choose not to participate in the activity, but your point about trusting your teachers, believing that school is a safe place, you cant actually just on the out. And about your trivializing, it feels like some things wont be known. I cannot know in a bodily way, what the experience of the terror of the Middle Passage is. I can develop empathy by reading. I can know a deep history, but not only can i not know it, but i would prefer that my child never actually experience whatever that terror is. So just as i want us to have empathy for Sexual Assault survivors, i dont want to reenact rape on adolescents. And just as i want them to understand the horror of terrorism, i dont want to put them in a burning building. Why would we think its okay to play in this way with slavery . Think about this. We have almost no Cultural Institution in this country that tells the slavery story in an effective way, that would create those moments of empathy and understanding in a responsible way, a parent and a child, with a teacher and a students. So if you think about the effectiveness of the holocaust museum, as a way that both uses abstraction, right, the part of the exhibit where you see the shoes of these thousands, millions of people who have been exterminated. And all thats left behind are these shoes that get recycled and sold off for manufacturing parts to make German Companies wealthy. Like, that is incredibly powerful. And yet, no one is essentially put into a gas chamber to experience what it might be to be cooked alive. Nor would we want nor is that a necessary part of developing a sense of empathy in this moment. Thats right. So, again, back to the larger super structure here. The fact that we are now, in 2015, just about to build the first Natural Museum of africanamerican history, which is still troubled by how do you tell the slavery story. Still doesnt know. Only illustrates how deeply problematic it is, this reconciling of these issues. At the junior scholars program, which we do, we take middle School Students as early as 10 years old, all the way through high school. We just taught te mahe emancipa proclamation story, we used the story of harriet jacobs, who was repeatedly raped by her master. We took weeks to walk through these common readings with their kids. We broke them up into ageappropriate groups, so that the 10yearolds learned at a pace appropriate to them and the 17yearolds learned at a pace appropriate to them. Thats the kind of time and space and reflection and carefulness that is necessary. Hows your daughter . Shes doing fine. Shes doing fine. Of course, shes affected by what happened, but you know, as most kids her age, they dont want to talk about it, you know, its hard to talk about, or even hard for her to articulate her experience and i think just over the past ten months, she talks about it periodically and more and more since the news reports have started coming out about natures classroom and seeing the footage on tv and just remembering the experience. Have you been countering with lots of good, positive, sort of narratives about black achievement and accomplishment and that sort of thing . We try to do that a lot. Talking about all the first set black folks that have achieved and trying to point out things. My daughter is involved in dance, so trying to point out achievements by black dancers and such. So we try to pump in as much positive as possible. Were obsessed with and love Misty Copeland here on this show, so there are, inform, many contemporary and historical models. Thank you so much, for the bakers to be here, and thank you, khalil, and maybe its time to think very carefully through how to take the kind of work youre doing and make it available to more. And folks, if you want to do a reenactment of slavery in your school, how about nat turners rebellion . Up next, the stars of the hit broadway play, the trip to bountiful. And struggle to sleep comfortably together, now theres a solution. Sleep number dual temp, the revolutionary temperaturebalancing layer with active air technology that works on any mattress brand, including yours. Whether you sleep hot or cool, sleep number dual temp allows each of you to select your ideal temperature. And its only at one of our 425 sleep Number Stores nationwide. Sleep number. Comfort individualized. Of an elderly woman, living longing to live for her childhood. The trip to bountiful, by american playwright and screenwriter, horton foot, has been reimagined as a stage play and an oscarwinning feature film in the years since that broadcast. Recent Broadway Revival of the show can now add another award to its accolades, after best actress tony was awarded for the plays indomitable leader performer, sicily tyson. Tyson is nothing short of a force of nature in her portrayal of carrie watts, viewing her role with heart and humor. You feeling better now . Yes, i am. Do you think you ought to be getting up so soon . Yes, maam. Im feeling much better already. Miss tyson is accompanied by a fine cast of performers, who are acclaimed in their own right, including vanessa williams, and the two actors who are joining me now, tom. 80s babies may remember him as luke duke from the tv series, and adapara adaye who first captivated audiences with her performances in the awardwinning film pariah. Talk to me a little about what happens when you reimagine this story with a predominantly black cast. For me it really doesnt factor. I come on as the sheriff late in the show and im kind of the White Authority figure. But im coming there like at 4 30 in the morning to talk to her about im supposed to take her into custody for her son to come pick her up because shes almost home. And i dont want to be a spoiler, but i take her there eventually. It really works really fine. And actually, when youre watching the piece it really doesnt enter your mind it was reimagined. For me it generates a certain tension that may not otherwise be there. When you show up as the White Authority figure then you all of a sudden start thinking how does this go down . When you do take her there theres a kind of surprise to it almost. This idea of home is at the center. Just as i was preparing and i read a New York Times review of the play that talks about the moment at which cecily tyson stands and sings blessed assurance. And often africanamericans in the audience sing back in call and response. Suggesting that there is a kind of home space that is created just by the play itself. Yeah, think its i think when i saw the play and what ive experienced being on stage and just hearing that feedback, i think its great that theater can do that, you can get into a space. I think its a universal story about home. But when you can sit there and really connect to it in a very real visceral way, whether it be by religion, and it just comes out of people and they join along. And i think its really special when theater can do that, and i think thats what we have here with this experience of the play. And there is something about theater. Both of you work in other mediums, work in television, work in movies. What is it about broadway that makes it a unique way of engaging and telling a story . The people in that in the house. The people in the audience for that show, theyre the only ones who will see that show. And every show is different. Its hard to believe, but they really are. Last nights was very interesting. We had a little technical problem, so we had to interrupt it for a couple of minutes. But theres something about live theater. And broadway is the peak. Just the bigness of broadway and yeah. Its interesting for you to say. I hadnt really thought of that. Now television our viewing experience is so different, even with, for example, netflix or hulu, where you may not even be watching it at the same time. But when you do watch it, right . Everyone sees the same episode. Exactly. Everyone sees the same experience. But youre right. Each one is unique. It has its own hitches or hiccups or sort of emotional moments. Or somebody in the audience will react loudly to something and other people will chime in. Its that like collective group experience, which is why its so great to watch movies in a movie theater. Because yeah, its great you can watch movies on your computer on netflix, but theres something about watching something with a bunch of other people and just that energy. Theres nothing like it. And this is really special because this is cecily tyson and she is a force of nature. This is a really, really rare occasion to have her on broadway. Its been 30 years. And she is tearing this part up on a daily basis. She hasnt missed a show. And weve got 2 1 2 weeks left. So. What is it like to work with her . Its joyous. Its inspiring. Its just surreal. She is ive learned so much just by watching her and how she can the show is different every day with the same words. Which i think you have to be really you have to be at a high level of your craft to be able to do that. Yeah. Shes definitely not to be missed. Yeah. Absolutely. So im so grateful that you all came. I also hope that you will come back. We are going to want to talk about the 12 years as a slave film particularly after the conversation we just had around slavery and whether or not we have good ways to talk about it in this country. Im hoping that this film will be part of a good way to talk about it. I hope so too. I hope you will come back. Id love to. Be careful when you go out here. My husband was a big fan of the dukes of hazzard. He might jump on you hes got to come to 54 below at the end of october. That would go big fun. So to tom and adapero, thank you so much for being here. That is our show for today. Thanks so much for watching. Im going to see you next saturday, 10 00 a. M. Eastern. Now its time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. Hello, alex. Hi, melissa. The latest on the standoff in an upscale kenyan mall frequented by westerners. Dozens have been killed, hundreds wounded and an unknown number of hostages remain. Why did Terrorists Attack this mall . Also open enrollment for obama care just eight days away as we break down what it means for uninsured and others uninformed americans. Plus amanda knox and her decision not to return to a retrial in italy. Im talking to her attorney about what it means if she is found guilty. And in todays office politics, hoda kotb talks candidly about being a cancer survivor and she explains how that whole winesday wednesday theme got started on today. Thats good for a laugh. Dont go anywhere. Ill be right back. Eak thanks to her double miles from the capital one venture card. Now what was mrs. Davis teaching . Spelling. Thats not a subject, right . I mean, spell check. Thats a program. Algebra. Okay. Persons a and b are flying to the bahamas. How fast will they get there . Dont you need distance, rate and. No, all it takes is double miles. [ all ] whoa. Yeah. [ male announcer ] get away fast with unlimited double miles from the capital one venture card. Youre the worlds best teacher. This is so unexpected. Whats in your wallet . Amelia. Neil and buzz for teaching us that you cant create the future. By clinging to the past. And with that youre history. Instead of looking behind. Delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions. In everything from the best experiences below. To the finest comforts above. Were not simply saluting history. Were making it. Oh, my parents will be here any minute. Canned soup . No way. Mmm this is delicious katie. Its not bad for canned soup, right . Pfft [ laughs ] you nearly had us there. Canned soup. [ laughter ] [ male announcer ] so good, theyll think its homemade. Try campbells homestyle soup. Mm mm good. Carnage in kenya, and it is still not over. New and frightening details this hour from those who managed to escape that mall under attack. There are heartbreaking images and Big Questions today. How much does this suggest a growing al qaeda threat, or does it . On the brink. The president pushes back against the gop on a Government Shutdown and obama care. Were going to tell you what he said and get reaction. And its the coolest city in the country. So where is it . One hint. It has the Worst Baseball Team around, but its still cool. Hello, everyone. High noon in the east