Transcripts For MSNBCW Melissa Harris-Perry 20130915

Good morning. Im melissa harrisperry. Today marked a very important anniversary in modern u. S. History. I want to take you back to what we were all watching five years ago today. And remind you how none of us knew just how deep our economic problems went. On the broadcast tonight, meltdown. The American Financial system is rocked to its foundation as top wall street institutions topple under a mountain of debt. Coming up tonight, how did it happen . Whats next, and how safe is your money . Meltdown, rocked to its foundation, mountain of debt our Financial System, as we knew it, was about to change forever. That day the Dow Jones Industrial average lost 504 points on the days trading, with the largest point drops in history. The nasdaq was down more than 81 points and the s p 500 was down more than 59. Was what was the cause of all of this . Take a look. All of this fallout from what happened last night in new york, as Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy protection just after midnight, with 613 billion in debt on its books, lehman is by far the largest bankruptcy ever in this country, dwarfing world cam back in 2002. So lehmans filing for bankruptcy the night before wasnt the begin of our financial meltdown. That was fueled in part by the implosion of the Housing Market the year before due to the subprime mortgage crisis. But lehman started a domino effect of Financial Institutions toppling, merging, or being bailed out to stay afloat. Merrill lynch became part of bank of america. Aig, the Worlds Largest Insurance Company, teetered on the brink of collapse. It was ultimately rescued by a bailout that gave the government a 79. 9 stake in the company. These events and the Economic Uncertainty had many around them thinking, the sky is falling. That included senator john mccain, who decided to suspend his 2008 president ial campaign to return to washington, d. C. , amid the crisis. Both he and his opponent, then senator barack obama, joined president bush at the white house. In that meeting, political leaders tried to harm out the 700 billion government bailout plan for the governments Financial Institutions. That initial plan failed. But, eventually, the senate and house passed revised versions of t. A. R. P. Or the troubled asset relief program, which was spearheaded by then treasury secretary, hank paulison, a former ceo of Goldman Sachs. But lets pause. Because its easy to get mired in the details. And its understandable why we were collectively afraid on monday, september 16th, 2008, but i want to suggest that the questions that should have been asked should have been asked before the crash. Because unlike chicken little, the time to be worried is not the day when you see the sky falling in on you, the time to worry are the weeks, the months, the days, the weeks before, when there are signs that our economy is hemorrhaging and banks are operating under a too big to fail mentality. So how are wall street and the banks doing today . Its a pretty good day to be a bank. U. S. Bank earnings rose to a record high of 42. 2 billion in the Second Quarter of this year. And on friday, the dow closed at 15,376, more than a thousand points higher than the markets peak before the bubble began to burst. But, are we about to be chicken little all over, a day too late, again . Time magazine asked that question in this weeks cover story. How wall street won, five years after the crash. It could happen all over again. Meanwhile, a new study this week found that the top 1 of earners in the u. S. Took 19. 3 of total Household Income in 2012. That is one that is the 1 ers biggest life of the total income pie in more than a century. But lets not lose sight of the fact that as the banks have bounced back, they havent brought the rest of us with them, although they are the one industry that tries to convince us that if they fail, we all fail. At the table, William Cohen is the contributing editor at vanity fair and author of house of cards a tale of hubris and wretched excess on wall street. Time excited to invite and have at my table here, soledad obrien, josh barrel, politics editor, and andrew boyce, former policy adviser to mitt romney. Thank you all for being here. Bill, i want to start with you, right now, are the banks still in the too big to fail category . Absolutely. They are more concentrated than ever. Weve lost three of our Big Five Banks in this crisis. Bear stearns is gone. Lehman brothers is, of course, gone, liquidated, and Merrill Lynch is not nearly what it once was as part of bank of america. So where we had five powerful top big wall street firms, now weve got two to three and theyre much more concentrated and much more powerful. This is a huge lost opportunity. Remember five years ago, there was incredible fear in this country. Thats when things get done on wall street, where the lines of fear and greed cross. This time we missed this opportunity. The banks are stronger than ever. Soledad, im interested in this missed opportunity idea. Im wondering if in part it has to do with our Public Discourse around the banks. Absolutely. No one cares. Your average consumer will shake their hands, oh, the banks. Thats it. People arent saying and theyre not calling for, listen, theres an opportunity now and we need to get in and change these rules and really push for full implementation of dodd frank, et cetera, et cetera. No ones doing that. No ones talking about it. They have the idea, the banks, they get bailed out. What can you do . Too big to fail . So i think that theres no conversation that then pushes the political discourse, that then pushes the politicians to push it back against those who fund them well and those who frankly have a lot of power. Look at all the number of meetings that had happened to try to get some of these iterations and various versions and parts of the bills passed. The bankers are in there at every moment negotiating and tweaking and tweaking until it lost all its power. And part of that is about the asymmetry of information. I may care. I may be at home shaking my fist, but the amount of time i spent over the course of this past week, learning about leverages and derivatives, and to be able to sit at the table this morning. Part of the problem, the reason the bankers could be in there doing it is because there is an asymmetry of information. They know how these processes work, that are very opaque to us as consumers. And i think thats a necessary part of policy in this area. Banks are complicated in whatever way you come up to regulate them is going to be complicated and the bankers will have conflicts of interest and will want the industry to be regulated in a way that benefits them. So they have to be part of that process. And i think weve gone the direction we have for a set of good reasons. It doesnt really work just to say, well break up the banks to the point where theyre small enough it doesnt matter if they fail. Lehman wasnt that big. So i think dodd frank, the approach theyve taken, we need to make them safer so theyre less likely to become insolvent and need rules that allow the government to better manage them if they do fail. Its still an open question whether thats going to work. But we took that approach because we had to take that approach. I dont think theres another way to approach this and try to prevent another crisis. So, on the one hand, i get this, right . I get what josh is saying, and this is the too big to fail narrative that emerged. That the banks simply had such an important part of our economy, that allowing them to fail would have had even more cascading effects for main street. That said, as hard as it may be understand Something Like a derivative, whats not hard to understand is executive compensation, what the big guys make. When i look at the economy five years lake, in 2007, before the crash, it was 8. 4 million on average, and in 2008, start to come down to 7. 6 million. But today, on average, executive pay compensation is 9. 7 million. So if im at home watching, i understand five years ago, they failed, and theyre making much more and at the same time my income is stagnant. Thats whats been going on with monetary policy. If you look at ben bernanke keeping Interest Rates really low, who has that benefited . People who own stocks, property owners, and people who own the big banks. Because they can make a lot of money investing those assets in other ways. Thats one of the reasons why these big banks have a huge comettive advantage in the market, because Everybody Knows that they have this implicit subsidy and the government is going to bail them out. So you do need to break up the big banks. I dont know if josh fundamentally disagrees with you an eye roll. Whos benefited from loose monetary policies . People who are in work now, who weve had even an higher unemployment. And the other thing is, we would have had deflation if we wouldnt have had such aggressive action on part of the fed. Thats not clear. Its a counterfactual. It is. But people keep saying, the fed is printing all this money and theres going to be all this inflation. Inflation is running around 1. 5 . If the fed would have been less aggressive, we would have had homeowners even deeper underwater. One of the things weve needed would have been easier money policies that would have had a temporarily higher inflation i think executive compensation is, if the bank is doing better and the leader is perceived to be running the bank well and theyve made money, they get compensated with that. So i think that thats sort of a different category altogether as opposed to something that happened post the great depression, where the banks were kind of, mostly, sort of on board with the big changes that had to happen. What is interesting, i think, now, you actually have the banks kicking and screaming and theyre like, were not going. Absolutely, there will not be reform. We are not going to make it. I think people have made this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. They have their own language at the banking level. But its really pretty darned simple. Its about incentives. And you had a chance to change the incentives on wall street five years ago, because they badly needed to be changed. Because what you have now, people are rewarded to take risks with other peoples money. Pause with me. I want to talk about that question of risk and incentive and about whether its about greed or some connection between them. Before we take a break, we want to bring you the latest on the flooding disaster in boulder, colorado. At least four people are dead and 584 still unaccounted for this morning in the massive flooding. President obama has signed a disaster declaration for the area. Heavy rains have washed out roads, swamping cars and homes. The region is bracing for more rain today. National guard helicopters are airlifting stranded residents to safety. Theyre warning residents cut off to leave or face weeks without Running Water and supplies and electricity. Stay with msnbc for the latest. 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Cashback concierge, here. What is a cashback concierge . Well theres lots of ways you can get cash back. Im here to help you get the most out of your cash rewards. Its personalized, and its free. I want that. We have a concierge at discover, we treat you like youd treat you. Get the it card with cashback concierge. Its delicious. So now weve turned her toffee into a business. My goal was to take an idea and make it happen. Im janet long and i formed my Toffee Company through legalzoom. I never really thought i would make money doing what i love. [ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. Go to legalzoom. Com today and make your business dream a reality. At legalzoom. Com we put the law on your side. I know these are difficult times and i know folks are worried. But i also know this. We can steer ourselves out of this crisis because we are the United States of america. But its going to take a new direction. It will take new leadership in washington. It will take a real change in the policies and politics of the last eight years and thats why im running for president of the United States of america. That was nen senator barack obama in 2008, less than a month after the economic meltdown. So much attention is being paid to the anniversary that a white house official announced yesterday, president obama will make remarks tomorrow in the white houses rose garden to mark the fifth anniversary of the financial crisis and tout the economic progress thats been made. What kind of progress can president obama point to . He can mention the employment numbers, which were at 6. 1 before the crash, 10 at the height of the crash, and now sit at 7. 3 . Theres also gross domestic product, which is higher than precrash numbers, and median Household Income is not back to the precrash amount of 55,000, but is climbing back from a low of 50,700, in august of 2011. All of this leads one to ask, how much credit does president obama deserve for where we are five years after 2008s economic crash. How much credit or blame does the president deserve . I believe i mean, i completely agree with that speech he gave in october of 2008. Unfortunately, he didnt implement any of the things that he promised us. The change we can believe in never happened. He surrounded himself immediately as his close economic advisers with the people who are going to who are in part responsible for what happened, whether it was tim geithner or Larry Summers. Who were going to reestablish the status quo as quickly as possible. What was needed was a fundamental change in the architecture of wall street. There was a moment when it could have happened. It didnt happen, and i knew the moment it wasnt going to happen when he appointed tim geithner and Larry Summers as his key economic advisers. I think the president was cautious. He was too concerned because it wasnt a policy area he was particularly familiar with. So he relied on these people who had had the experience, who had been around, but those were the people who were in large part responsible for the crisis or complacent about its causes. So the dodd frank was a missed opportunity. When dodd frank were going through congress, a lot of the things that caused the financial crisis werent addressed. We have all this legislation that supposedly addresses these things and it supposedly doesnt. I want you to pause for our viewers and remind us what dodd frank is and why nearly half of the rules that were meant to be written have not yet been written. Dodd frank was the financial reform that was passed by congress in 2010. And the idea was that it would address some of these issues, for example, banks being too big to fail, it would address that. It would create all these rules to bapgs wouldnt take so much risk, roll the dice, gamble with so much money. Thats the famous volcker rule. But that rule hasnt been written. Because it sounds simple in concept to tell banks, dont take risks with your own but, but its complicated in reality. Banks have a lot of assets. What do they do with those assets and instructing them what to do is very complicated. On the politics, ive heard on one hand, okay, this was a missed moment, then, maybe it was a lack about understanding. Lack of accountability. If you look and see whos been held accountable, kind of no one. When you look at that 600page report that came out of the bankruptcy examiner that came out of the lehman bankruptcy, right, and he found actionable manipulation. Those are his words, not mine. And nothing came of that. I mean, so i think that theres a sense that, if youre a banker and there is no accountable at the end. I just dont think that anybodys really been penalized in ways that weve seen in the past. And it feels with too, when you say accountable, that carrot and stick problem, for if they are going to be so big, as part of our economy, then we both need the greed of bankers would operate and be forced, as a matter of policy, to serve the public good. And there have to be sticks on the back end, if it doesnt. What we dont want to do is say, we dont need banks, obviously we do, right . How do we shift the profit motivations, the greed motivations, so they serve a collective good . This is the problem. The housing policy and the policies that we instructed banks too engage in contributed to the crisis. Thats one of the reasons why a lot of the bankers havent gone to jail. They were complying with federal it wasnt illegal, right. They were complying with federal regulations that require them to lend to people with belowmo belowmedian incomes. And the problem is, if some of those people have poor credit, you increase the riskiness of the mortgage portfolio. But see, this is that return to the idea that what crashed wasnt the bankers and their choices, but these sort of irresponsible it was a combination. Homeowners. This is why i think its a mistake to turn this into a morality play and try to figure out, you know, whos morally culpable for the crash. I think it does make sense to say, the bankers are much more morally culpable than individuals who took out mortgages that were too big for them and bought homes the they couldnt afford. Because they were told by banks, and particularly communities of color were given subprime mortgages even when they qualified for normal rates. So i think with that framework, the administration and politicians in general have been very reluctant to impose new rules that put more stringent borrowing requirements on homeowners. The qualified mortgage rules that are coming out that tell banks, these are the kind of mortgages that you can make without being afraid that were going to come back to you and say you were behaving inappropriately. They contain no leverage requirement. And the government is still ensuring mortgages are people put down as little as 3. 5 of the home price because we dont want to blame the homeowners. And we shouldnt blame the homeowners, but we should have policies Going Forward that discourage both banks and individuals from taking risks. There was plenty of fraud in that as well. It wasnt just that. There were plenty of people who were incentivized, who were working for these mortgage companies, that were incentivized to put people into foreclosure. There were plenty of people, in fact, who did not loan to people of color or push them into subprime mortgages or go out of their way to help them fail. And i think or, soledad. I love the morality play. And i would like to see people. Ive seen loan documents. You can do both. Ive seen loan documents where every detail of the he or shes, supposely life, with their job, their income, their car was fabricated and put on the loan document and then they signed it, without even reading it. The person who was making them this mortgage, his incentive was to make the mortgage, sell it lets pause for a moment. Were going to come back and get into this mortgage question. Ive got the National Head of Housing Alliance, who says not only in the making of the mortgages, but also in the fo foreclo foreclosing, were finding these inequalities. Thank you for being here if in two weeks, were going to do health care and we want you at the table when we have a conversation about that. Up next, a new study that shows when banks are looking at housing, the picture seems to be in black and white. 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September 15th isnt the only anniversary that the Banking Industry will be celebrating. Just around the corner is september 25th, which marks the oneyear anniversary of the complaint filed against bank of america. The complaint alleges that bank of america both maintains and markets bankowned properties in white neighborhoods, significantly better than in communities of colors. The original complaint included eight metropolitan areas, but on the anniversary, the National Fair Housing Alliance will essentially say, wait, its worse than we thought, and expand its complaint to include a number of new cities. Joining me now from washington, d. C. Is shauna smith, president and ceo of the National Fair Housing Alliance. And joining me in the studio is john nichols, washington correspondent for the nation magazine. Shauna, let me start with you. Tell me what it is that is the fundamental nature of the complaint against bank of america here. We began looking at bank of america after we called for a moratorium on foreclosures in 2007. In 2009, we started to look at how the banks were maintaining the properties that they currently own, and comparing that to black, latino, and white neighborhoods. And to our distress, we found that in middle class and working class neighborhoods across the United States, bank of america was not maintaining the homes. Grass was overgrown, trash was in the area. This is a home that was in a white neighborhood thats well maintained. You see a for sale sign, you see the lawns mown, this is in good shape. This is in memphis. And yet in other parts of memphis, this is a newer property that is owned by bank of america, was on its website for sale, and theyre going to market a home that has graffiti, broken windows, and trash around it. So i want to you know, were looking at some evidence, the kind of evidence that you have collected. We did ask bank of america for a statement yesterday. We didnt hear back from them in time for the program, but we pulled a statement from them that was released in september. I want to read it. They say, we strongly deny their allegations and stand behind our Property Maintenance and marketing practices. Bank of america is committed to stabilizing and revitalizing communities that have been impacted by the economic downturn, foreclosures, and property abandonment. But explain to me if youre in a community and its house one or house two in your community. Weve looked at more than 40 cities where bank of america owns the properties and has a duty to maintain them. You start with the states, the cities, the schools, the local businesses, the tax base is being decimated. And cities are paying more for nuisance abatement activities. We have homes that have rats in them. We have homes that have broken windows and kids are having parties in them. Imagine if you lived next door, what that is doing to your property value. Its pulling it down. Is the Insurance Company going to continue to insure you when you live nextdoor to a risk . And again, these are middle class, working class, africanamerican, latino neighborhoods that were comparing to white middle class and working class neighborhoods. So, joan, let me ask you this. You see the sort of empirical evidence. There hasnt been a ruling yet in the courts. When you see that, do you think this is purposeful, Racial Discrimination or do you think theres probably something going on here that leads to this kind of racial inequality, but its probably not purposeful on the part of boa. Its purposeful neglect. Theres though doubt of that. There are some neighborhoods that simply dont get the attention. Theres a great group well, nafas group. Theres a great group called National Peoples action, npa, and they literally work these neighborhoods. They go into them and organize the people to try to communicate. And the horrors that folks go through from neighborhoods, just trying to get their voice heard. These are the people who have decided to stay and they will go to the banks, they will go to these lobbies, try to go up the elevator. Literally sometimes trying to get their word across, and they are shunted away. So the fact of the matter is, whether we want to determine that this is, you know, a specific attack or whether it is just neglect, whatever it is, is it, we know that these banks are informed of the problem. We know that people beg them to act. And yet they do not. So shauna, what is the case, hoping it will push bank of america to do. We expect them to have a resolution as we did with wells fargo. Wells fargo came to the table, they paid more than 40 million for Community Relief to go back into the neighborhoods that have been harmed. Now, bank of america, we have almost two times the amount of evidence, more than 40 cities. So bank of america is going to have to pay a lot of money to come in. The u. S. Department of housing and you are juan development came with us. We filed a complaint with them. Theyre investigating it. The Justice Department supports the idea of the failure of the bank to maintain and market homes and communities of color, like they do in white neighborhoods. This is intentional, malicious discrimination. Bank of america has been on notice since 2009 and they dont change their practices. They hired safeguards to do their work. We told them we had evidence against safeguard. In fact, we have hud complaints pending against safeguard. Shauna smith in washington, d. C. , thank you for your continuing work with the National Fair Housing Alliance. Thank you. The man behind the legislation that was supposed to fix things, what barney frank had to say today. If youve got it, you know how hard it can be to breathe and man, you know how that feels. 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Its the will that bears his name and was supposed to offer a remedy that would for once and all rein in big banks. Barney frank had this to say about the dodd frank bill when asked if senator Elizabeth Warren was right about banks still being too big to fail. I very much admire senator warren, but she is wrong if she thinks that too big to fail isnt going this is what the bill specifically said. By the way, this is bipartisan, as this whole motion has been, because secretary paulson is the one who suggested the approach. So the power of federal government to step in out and those institutions out of business. We seem to have a fundamental disagreement, even on the left, as to whether or not we have the protections in place we need to prevent toot economic implosion brought on by the financial sector. Youre never going to know until you get there. I dont think theres someone who can seriously say, that theres an industry, that too big to fail has been solved. I dont think the changes have but soledad, what industry, what industry of such import would we say, well, were knreay sure whether or not weve got it under control. And this is why Sherrod Brown and david vitter have come together and said, look, we have a bill that will adjust the capitol requirements on banks and make sure that were prot t protected. And the fact of the matter is, i understand that Barney Franks thinks he did some important stuff. But that i has not been dotted. That t has not been crossed its hard to ask the guy whose name is on the bill, does the bill have teeth. Thats a little counterproductive. I think thats right. And i think the problem with the dodd frank approach, it assume ifs the regulation is clever enough, you can get things so, yes, the banks will be very big, but they will be safe and have ways to unwind them if necessary. The problem with the alternative approach from brown and vitter is that its just this very gross leverage cap where you say, well, well make the banks safe by telling them that they have to have lots of equity. And i think thats a good policy. But if you just do that and you dont also do the complicated dodd frank approach, then the banks can stuff themselves with really risky loans, where even if you have a lot of equity, you can still have failure. So i think you need both. I have his frustration. Theres a lot of value in the dodd frank law. There are things that its doing that will make the Financial System safer. I think he deserves some credit for that and i think he feels like hes not getting it. But it feels to me like part of the issue here has to do with this idea that sort of capitol greed finds a way. So this is your point about both simple and complex absolutely, absolutely. Capital and greed have found a way here. This is 2,300 pages, the dodd frank law, of what i call gobbledygook. And it has not even been implemented yet. So barney frank can say all he wants that when the next Goldman Sachs comes five years from now and is about to fail, we have a way to wind it down. I guarantee you that theres nobody in washington whos going to let Goldman Sachs fail. And lets listen to the president on this week on this topic, for one moment. Thats why we strengthened the entire banking system, so that too big to fail is far less likely to be in place if, heaven forbid, theres a crisis the next time. Because weve said, you know, banks, youve got to double the amount of capital you can have, so you can absorb losses when you have them, so taxpayers arent bailing you out. If you do start going under, youve got to have a plan, a living will, we call it, so we dont have to come in and clean up after you. Youre going to be on your own. I think too big to fail, though, is also sort of a philosophy. Its the idea, like, oh, we are agreeing that we cant make it without these things. So as you point out, if something catastrophic does have, its going to be the philosophy, do we, the american people, and really our representatives, believe that bank x, that is going under, do we sit around and wait for its to unwind itself and go through its living will. Will people say, that is going to effect the market, and ergo lets save it. Were looking right now at a congress that is willing to cut food subsidies for poor people, particularly for poor children, and we dont think, oh, look, our children are too important an asset to let them go hungry. That notion of this being an id ideology. One of the things hank paulson says he regrets most the bankers get big bonuses after the bailouts. And yet we can have a farm bill that cuts out food stamps but are you saying do americans value ceos more than poor children . Yeah, clearly. Thats not even up to debate, sadly. Let me throw in a specific that gets to the real crisis. And that is, its not only what the banks do, it is that we have subsidies built into our economi existing structure for the big banks. We are giving them tens of billions of dollars of advantage. One of the things that has to be done at this point. If we accepted the big banks are going to exist, but we have to look at ways that we can look at Community Banks and Smaller Banks more functional in this process. And you talk about keeping dodd frank, you talk about bringing in some of the capital requirements. We have also got to recognize, there are banks that exist that dont pay their ceos exorbitant pay. There are banks that exist that actually do meet decent capital requirements. But our government right now is biased on the side of the very big banks. We need to shift that bias. Not even to twin to solbegin to things that youre bringing up, but safety of the economy. And let me just do ill Credit Unions are part of this story. Exactly. William cohen and josh bar w barrow, thanks so much. Up next, why pope francis may be the coolest Catholic Leader weve ever seen. No two people have the same financial goals. Pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. Talk to a pnc investments Financial Advisor today. Bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his Small Business. Take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorns Small Business earns double miles on every purchase every day. Produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less . Ahh, oh [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. Heres your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark Business Card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. Choose double miles or 2 cash back on every purchase every day. Whats in your wallet . [ crows ] now wheres the Snooze Button . So, im working on a cistern intake valve, and the guy hands me a locknut wrench. No way im like, what is this, a drainpipe slipknot . Wherever your business takes you, you can save money with progressive commercial auto. [ sighs ] [ flo speaking japanese ] [ shouting in japanese ] we work wherever you work. Now, thats progressive. Call or click today. All right. This right here is pope francis. Now, you may have heard of him. When he was elected back in march, he became the first pope ever from latin america. Hes also the first ever jesuit pope. Another first, as far as we can tell, hes the first selfy pope. A group of teenagers a couple of weeks ago took a selfy photo with pope francis on their phone to capture the moment. Its the latest sign that pope francis is doing his own thing. That pope francis is not like the other popes that came before im. It started back in march when he refused to live in the fancy papal apartment that Pope Benedict xvi stayed in before him. Then still in his first month as pope, francis washed and kissed the feet of young inmates, including women for the first time, at a service the week before easter. Garbage collectors were the first vatican employees the that he invited to a morning mass. And speaking of mass, he preached on the beach to 3 Million People in brazil for world youth day. Oh, and the popes new ride is not an expensive popemobile, but a 1984 renoge donated by a priest. And he has appeared to crack open the door to the possibility of real policy change within the Catholic Church. He told reporters in july, if someone is gay and he searches for the lord, and has goodwill, who am i to judge . And this past wednesday, he wrote a lengthy letter to the italian daily la republica, asking for an open dialogue with atheists, writing that gods mercy has no limits. If thats not enough, then hes also got another nickname. The cold call pope. Thats right, pope francis is picking up the phone and calling people randomly. These may be drops in the bucket of social change, but its still encouraging. And another big change may be up for discussion, if this guy, pope francis second in command is to be believed. More on that next. [ male announcer ] when it comes to doing what you love, more is better. Thats why we designed the allnew nissan versa note, with more technology, to get you into, and out of, tight spots. And more space so that you always have your favorite stuff. And just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. So that when youre doing more, youre spending less. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. Mom . Come in here. Come in where . Welcome to my mom cave. Wow. Sit down. You need some campbells chunky soup before todays big game, new chunky cheeseburger. Mmm. I love cheeseburgers. I know you do. When did you get this place . When i negotiated your new contract, it was part of the deal. Cool. [ male announcer ] campbells chunky soup. It fills you up right. With within interview this week, the vaticans new secretary of state may, may have signaled that the Roman Catholic church is open to a very big change. Archbishop told venezuelas newspaper, celibacy is not an institution. But, look, it is also true you can that you can discuss it, because this is not a dogma, a dogma of the church. Clerics are bound to celibacy, which is a special gift of god, by which sacred ministers can adhere more easily to christ by an undivided heart and are able to dedicate themselves more freely to the services of god and humanity. But just last year, pope francis said about church celibacy, it is a matter of discipline, not of faith. It can change. So now that hes in charge of the vatican, is it a big deal that the popes number two is hinting at that change . And if that can change, are we going to see other changes . Women in the priesthood . I mean, that would be really exciting. Joining me now to discuss how big or small a deal this is, our sister, carmele, who is commentator on the radio and theology professor, michael peppered, and thea butler. For sop reason, theyre falling together for me here. Sister camille, what is meant to be the role of celibacy, and what would happen if the church began to think about changie ii it . Youve already described the role of celibacy. Its designed to keep the priest more separate from things that are not more ministerial. In reality, that works or it doesnt work. But whats important about this pope, hes looking forward to the needs of the church and people around the world are being denied the greatest gift of priesthood. There are simply not enough priests to handle this well. And those who are priests who are sell bat priests are so stressed and so strained, because so many of them have to manage several parishes, not just one. So this is this signal from the pope is a graced moment that i hope the church, all the church will listen to and embrace and i hope it will signal the change that many of us have hoped for. You framed that a little differently than i had been thinking of it. I was thinking, okay, dropping celibacy might mean the recruitment of additional priests. Which i thought of as on organizational good. But you framed it as a capacity to provide eucharist. So you framed it as a sacred good. Absolutely, youve got it. I think that most observers believe it is dogma, that celibacy has always been part of the Catholic Church doctrine. Is that not true . That is not true. Celibacy has been mandatory for priests for a shorter amount of time than it wasnt mandatory. Its really only since the 1 111100 1100s. That seems like a long time ago. The Catholic Church thinks in centuries. The first healing recorded in the gospel of mark is of peters motherinlaw. Suggesting he has a wife. Absolutely. So right off the bat, we have a marriage from the jewish tradition that is the inheritance in the christian tradition. But what happens over time, celibacy becomes a kind of virtue so style that over time filters up through the ranks. I think one of the things that is positive about this popes opening up of these doors, as you said, is that i think it comes out of a desire for Christian Unity as well. Which connects them with previous Pope Benedict and john paul ii. In the eastern churches, greek, russian, ukrainian, there are married clergy. And obviously in all of the protestant denominations are married clergy. One of his main themes have been Christian Unity and this might be a signal towards that. Now, i have made no bones about the fact that i stand for this pope. I really like this pope. Doesnt mean i agree with absolutely everything, but i love the things we keep seeing emerging week after week around poverty and inequality. How far do you think this could go . Could you imagine a moment when the Catholic Church also starts to think about the possibility of women serving in the priesthood . I could imagine that moment. I think that moment is about 75 to a hundred years off. Well, the Catholic Church thinks in millennium. And im thinking that way too. We already have married priests in the Catholic Church. You have tan interesting situation right now in africa with a group of priests that have broken off to go with former archbishop malingo to say, we need to be married. And when youre competing against islam, you have to figure out, if you dont have an unmarried priest, what does that mean . So theres room for change in the church, was will it with this pope . He has been very diplomatic about what he said. The proof in the pudding will be, do we see a counsel or something happen to change this rule. There is a world Competition Among religions. Islam is part of it, but within the christian tradition, theres lds, mormonism, which is having a huge spread around the world, the pentecostal traditions. Is the Christian Church aware of itself as a competitor in a marketplace of theological possibility . I think coming out of south america, where this pope is coming out of, hes definitely aware of that. Where you have a large loss of membership from the Catholic Church to pentecostal movements in latin and south america, and a lot of that is based on a feeling that the clergy are more able to be involved. There are just more of them. And theres more a stronger sense that church counsels and Church Organizations are caring for able to care for families in need. And so i think hes very much aware that the traditional catholic regions can be lost. And some of that culture can be lost. Sister, how much of this is just an American Catholic obsession, the kind of quirkiness that is the american way of doing catholicism, to see the pope behaving in these ways that seem so surprising to us . Well, we recently had a visit from a father schuyler from austria, a pastor there, and he went to 15 american cities, representing not only the aus n austrian church, but also the irish church, all saying the same things. We all need help. And one of the things i have not heard anybodys raise is this proposes great concern for poverty, material poverty, but that extends to emotional and spiritual poverty too. And here we have a great gap this schuyler was told by his bishop that no one was going to replace him when he retired, because there are no enough priests according to our traditional manner. Theres a problem that needs to be addressed and this is the pope to do it. I so appreciate having you all at my table. Coming up next, were going to go live to alabama to mark the 50th anniversary of the birmingham bombing and remember the four little girls who lost their lives and changed our country. There is, of course, more nerdland at the top of the hour. [ male announcer ] a doctor running late for a medical convention loses his computer, exposing thousands of patient records to identity theft. Data breaches can happen that easily. We dont believe you should be a victim of someone elses mistake. Were lifelock. We constantly monitor the web so if any of your personal information is misused, were on it. Ow. [ male announcer ] call 1800lifelock or go to lifelock. Com today. [ male announcer ] call 1800lifelock no two people have the same financial goals. Pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. Talk to a pnc investments Financial Advisor today. I dont miss out. You sat out most of our game yesterday asthma doesnt affect my job. You were out sick last week. My asthma doesnt bother my family. You coughed all through our date night i hardly use my rescue inhaler at all. What did you say . How about every day . Coping with asthma isnt controlling it. Test your level of control at asthma. Com, then talk to your doctor. There may be more you could do for your asthma. Welcome back. Im melissa harrisperry. Right now youre laooking at lie pictures of a Remembrance Service in birmingham, alabama. Where 50 years ago today, four little girls were killed in a bombing by a white supremacist. Dr. Martin luther king jr. Spoke of the girls in a eulogy, calling them victims of one of the most vicious crimes ever perpetrated against humanity. It was 2 1 2 weeks after the march on washington issued a call for political and economic equality. The first policy response to that call, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 followed almost a year later. But it was a response that was galvanized on september 15th, 1963, by the death of four children, who would become martyrs for the cause. The time in birmingham that day was approximately 10 22 a. M. Central when the explosion took the city. The girls, adee may collins, cynthia, had just finished a sunday school lesson, whose subject was the love that forgives. After class, the girls were in the church basement, waiting for the start of the youth sunday services. Below them was a bundle of dynamite, hidden there by a member of the kkk whod timed the explosion to happen during sunday school. Church members reportedly found the girls huddled together beneath the debris. They died instantly, but justice for those four little girls would not be so swift. The baptist street explosion was the 21st bombing over an eightyear period in birmingham, which had by then become known as bombingham. At that time, not one of those bombings has been solved. More than a decade past before the state of alabama took action and charged and convicted clan leader robert chambliss, who went proudly by the name, dynamite bob. He died in jail while serving out a life sentence. But he hadnt acted alone. Another 38 years went by before his accomplices, Thomas Clayton jr. , and Bobby Frank Cherry were found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. This week, adee may, carol, cynthia, and denise were awarded the highest civilian medal. Joining us, theya butler, at the university of pennsylvania and john nichols, washington correspondent for the nation. So, joy, you just got back from birmingham. Whats the city like at this moment . Its interesting. It was a strange feeling of watching black people were living in an age of domestic terrorism, really, 50 years ago. And then that converting to an age where its black tourism, walking through. We went my daughter and i went through the civil rights institution. Incredible. It was incredible. The presentation right across the street from the 16th Baptist Church and you were walking through and experiencing it again with all of the video presentations. Now that area is this placid beautiful park across the street, all so calm. So this is a walking walking down the street, you are literally in danger of your l e life. And weve spent a lot of time talking about the 50th anniversary of the march on washington and reflecting on this notion of kings dream speech. And i think it was a critically important moment. And yet, theres a way in which that remembrance, in which king stands up and delivers a dream. And then we sort of tell all the stories that end with the election of president obama. And we miss that the countrys Immediate Response after the dream speech was not the Civil Rights Act, but was the murder of four little girls. And yet, even as we remember that, i keep thinking, well, now our history is, men speak and women die, girls die. And thats their roles in the movement. And is there anything were missing in our historical understanding about what connects these moments . I think whats missing is missing about this history, what was going on in birmingham to begin with. You have to understand that there had been a decision made to put kids out to march. Because they were like, we are not receiving what we need to have happen here. Were going to put kids out here, and everybody thought, this is the craziest thing youve ever done. So already, kids have been in the firing line of the hoses and the dogs and Everything Else. And then you have this grand and that proceeds the march on washington. The Birmingham Childrens crusade and then that march on washington. Then the march on washington, and then we get to the four little girls. And its at this moment, if you hear people tell the narrative of civil rights, they jump right over the four little girls, right . This is just another marker in whats going on there. And if you think about it, its not just the four little girls that day. Its two other black young men who get killed that day. So there are six black children who are killed on this day in bombingham, okay . And thats where the blood of children, the blood of children, and you cant get justice for years and years and years. And people wonder why you cant trust the justice system. You cant trust the courts. This is exactly why. This is what got put into the fight. That has historical memory, not just of the deaths, of the murders, but of the delay in justice, right . That historical memory which is still living memory, feels like it still impacts the understanding that africanamerican communities have about our ability to receive justice within the american story . And i think we could all tick off a bunch of justice stories for people of color. I dont think its such a stretch to say. And certainly, it would be an out and out lie to say, those days are passed, weve all moved on, hallelujah, lets go celebrate. Whats really interesting to me, i was talking to Marianne Wright edelman just the other night, and she was talking about putting children into the march. And how dr. King wasnt really he wasnt the person who he, himself, was for that. So when you had the death of the four girls, he was devastated. He was emotionally a wreck. He delivered that eulogy for three of the four girls. And in that jeweulogy, he went to call out black pastors, black people who were sitting on the sidelines. We on the on to call out pretty much everybody who was sort of complicit in their deaths. He used it as a moment to try to bring peoples attention. Much as the march on washington was a moment of, you thought this would be a disaster, you thought this would be a moment where people would be violent and it turned into this amazing event. Heres another moment to be leveraged. Lets not let these girls die in vain. And you have to remember that the attack on the 16th Street Church was not just an attack on church, but the 16th church was the fulcrums as a center for the march. They were doing activism out of that church. It was across the street from the park where the children who came out of that church literally marched into the park. Fred shuttlesworth, so this was a period, the response to the march on washington, a peaceful march was for a part of the former slave Holding Class in the south to begin a terror campaign. And to target churches, to target children, to target any way they could the leaders, to say, were putting you back in your place. And im so appreciative of you of using the language of terrorism. Cornwell has an idea of the terrorism. And he talks about the gifts of black people in the age of terrorism. And says if we look at, if we study the response of the, for example, the parents of those four little girls or the parents of who put their children in the line of fire in the first place, that we learn something about how we might respond to terrorism, that is quite different than a kind of warbased response. This is a really big deal. And theres a lot theres so much to unpack here. It is very, very important to understand that the Africanamerican Community in 1963 was in the midst of a massive struggle. And everything that happened in birmingham, we talk about, you know, what happened to the church. They had integrated the schools the week before. Africanamericans had voted that spring and defeated bill connor for mayor of birmingham. Real things were happening. And people were courageously stepping up and saying, we can make this system work. And then, suddenly, they have these four girls killed. Two boys killed the same day. And instead of and believe me, ive studied the coverage of this moment. There was there are going to be riots, theyre going to go crazy. No, there was a remarkably, almost stunningly tame response. Dr. King said, we must not have courage, but have caution. But this is so powerful, you talk about that contribution. A lot of people say, theyre killing our children. Understand what happened in the 24 hours after. But leading into this thing, literally, major publications in this country were saying, you know, maybe we should go a little slower. It looks like civil rights is evolving the right away. Maybe things are going to work out okay after the march. And this changed the next morning, literally, the next morning, the editorial in the milwaukee sentinel, a conservative paper was, we all have blood on our hands. Up next, birmingham native, Condoleezza Rice, shares her memories of that fateful day. I will never forget that awful day in september when 16th street Baptist Church was bombed. We felt the explosion. Oh, really . At your church right. My dads church was only about two miles from 16th street Baptist Church. So it was like the ground shook and i remember pretty soon, we were starting to hear that these little girls had been killed and then the names started to come out, and of course, everybody knew one of those little girls. For a strong bag that grips the can. Get glad forceflex. Small change, big difference. More is better. Thats why we designed the allnew nissan versa note, with more technology, to get you into, and out of, tight spots. And more space so that you always have your favorite stuff. And just for good measure, an incredibly efficient 40 mpg highway. So that when youre doing more, youre spending less. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. We are the thinkers. The job jugglers. The up allnighters. And the ones who turn ideas into action. Weve made our passions our lifes work. We strive for the moments where we can say, i did it we are entrepreneurs who started it all. With a signature. Legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. And were here to help start yours. His day of coach hen. [ man ] hey, brad, want to trade the allday relief of two aleve for six tylenol . Whats the catch . Theres no catch. You want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol . No. For my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve. Last week as part of reverend al sharptons advancing the dream special, he sat down with former secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, who in 1963 was a child living in the Birmingham Community that was rocked by the death of four girls in an explosion at the 16th street Baptist Church. She felt the blast while sitting in her Fathers Church only a couple miles away from the site of the bombing. In her conversation with reverend sharpton, ryce talked about the impact of the attack on her tightknit Africanamerican Community in birmingham and how that Community Responded to living under the constant and realized threat of domestic terrorism. For kids in birmingham, my age, it was 8 00, it was, how could these people hate us so much . What is this . Your dad had a Watchman Group . My father and his friends formed a brigade to keep the community safe. They had their shifts, with their weapons, out there to keep night riders out of the community. I dont think they ever actually shot at anybody, but they shot their guns in the air once in a while. But that was how they you couldnt the police couldnt protect you. Joining me now, congresswoman terry sewell, democratic representative for the seventh district of alabama, who is in birmingham at the 16th street Baptist Church Remembrance Services. So nice to see you this morning, congresswoma congresswoman. Nice to be here, thank you. What are plans for the commemoration today . Reporter well, we are excited. You know, today is actually the 50th anniversary of the day. All week long, weve had what we call in birmingham, empowerment week. And we kicked it off with a Gold Medal Ceremony in washington, d. C. , in which the four little girls were given a congressional gold medal, which is the highest civilian honor that congress can bestow upon any civilian. And we offer them posthumously to the four little girls. Ed ay may, cynthia, denise, and carol. Are the people in birmingham talking about those girls now receiving this medal five decades later, the recognition of a grateful nation for what their sacrifice has done . Are the People Living in birmingham today feeling a sense of pride about that . Reporter they are. You know, this is a day of somber reality that 50 years ago, an act of terror really shook this city. But out of that tragedy has come a civil rights movement, which ultimately led to a Global Human Rights movement, and its Something Worthy of being commemorated. And i think that, you know, by bestowing the congressional gold medal, what were acknowledging, while 50 years later, is that justice may be delayed, but justice is not denied. Finally, these four little girls will take their proper role in history as true her wins of the civil rights movement. I think to bring the death of children to a more present reality, obviously, in the past two weeks woob weve been talking about the death of children in syria. Over the course of the past several months, weve talked about the children who died at sandy hook elementary. Have we lost our ability, as a nation, as a world, to react with horror when children die . We havent passed manchin toomey. Its not clear exactly how our interventions in syria will or will not keep other children from dying. Is Something Different today now than 50 years ago . Well, i think its about our common humanity that while there are many differences that divide us, as ethnicity, gender, religion, et cetera, that are common humanity with four little girls who just came here to go to worship in a church for sunday school, it really did awaken the slumbering consciousness of america and the world, frankly. And i think that thats exactly what the video footage of the chemical weapons in syria has done for this nation. Congresswoman sewell, thank for joining us. I know you need to get into the commemoration there in the church. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Let me come back to the panel. I want to go back for a moment listening to former secretary of state rice talk about her father and others in the community forming armed selfdefense in response to domestic terrorism. And when i heard her say that during reverend sharptons special last friday, i thought, whoa. And she becomes the secretary of state after the great act of american terrorism, we think of 9 11, and suddenly, i read condi rice differently. It felt like a different story to me than what id heard before. Exactly, you heard a story about somebody who said, my father would protect me, so i need to step in and try to protect this nation. It doesnt make me agree with her, but it did change my perspective. And when you think about, i think people are always surprised to realize that Condoleezza Rice was there in birmingham, thinking, how could she make those choices . But i think it also speaks to what the breadth of the Africanamerican Community was like during that time period, and whites just believe, if we just bomb enough, if we just beat you up enough, if we just shoot at you enough, you will quit wanting to be equal. And thats not the case. And the other thing people do forget, the roots of that notion of an individual right to bear arms are in the black and not the kmit community. It was armed groups of africanamericans, i heard this story in sanford and in the 30s, they had to form these armed militiases to protect themselves. The dynamite stick was the weapon of choice. Not the gun, as well as, obviously, lynching the weapon of mass destruction. That was the weapon of mass destruction. And so a lot of africanamericans were arming themselves and you have a lot of southern blacks who still believe in this, i have to have a gun. Let us take this one step further and maybe connect a few things. The march on washington in 1963 was organized by by a. Phillip randolph, said the seminole moment of his youth was remembering his dad at the time of a race riot or some sort of racial challenge, his dad going out to try to make sure nobody got lynched and his mom sitting on the front porch with a shotgun. Incredible stories. You fast forward today, what event has to happen that would galvanize a community, where the grown men and women would say, were not going to take this . Clearly, its not education. Clearly, its not all the violence we see in communities. Like, what is the thing the newtown massacre, right . What was it . Six weeks, eight weeks, maybe ten weeks, where people were just like, this is just wrong. Yet how many other School Shootings have happened since then. Is it because only, only, three children were killed or two children i feel like we have become desensitized. And its harder to galvanize a community. Soledad, i so appreciate you saying that. Because certainly, the stick of dynamite, but i lived in new orleans. We were talking about this yesterday. The number of children dying on our streets, the sense that that may have been bombingham, but we are living in a city where a 1yearold, and her babysitter was holding her in her arms, walking home from a park, and the babysitter goes through thats the world were living in. Its not because of race, right . Were not being targeted its not because the communities are being targeted because theyre africanamerican communities, but the impact of black communities and poor communities is extraordinary. And i dont feel were grabbing the met foaphorical guns here a say enough. We have to bring media into this. Our media has changed immensely. That may be a reality. But there is simply no question that our media has been desensitized. Let me just finish this concept for a second, to say that if you look at what happened after the Birmingham Church bombing, that was the story that week. It was real and members of congress responded, felt they had to. Today, newtown did resonate for quite a while. But unfortunately, i think folks who dont want change recognize with our medias short attention span, they can wait it out. Pause with me for just one moment. We are going to pause now for a moment of silence. This is the time of the bombing in birmingham 50 years ago. We want to acknowledge the four innocent little girls that we lost that day. And in solidarity with the people that are there in the 16th street Baptist Church, who also just, we will be right back. Did you know more coffee drinkers prefer the taste of gevalia house blend over the taste of starbucks house blend . Not that we like tooting our own horn but. Toot toot. [ male announcer ] find gevalia in the coffee aisle or at gevalia. Com. Amelia. Neil and buzz for teaching us that you cant create the future. By clinging to the past. And with that youre history. Instead of looking behind. Delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions. In everything from the best experiences below. To the finest comforts above. Were not simply saluting history. Were making it. Like carpools. Polly wants to know if we can pick her up. Yeah, we can make room. Yeah. [ male announcer ]. Office space. Yes, were loving this communal seating. Its great. [ male announcer ] the best thing to share . A data plan. At t mobile share for business. One bucket of data for everyone on the plan, unlimited talk and text on smart phones. Now, everyones in the spirit of sharing. Hey, can i borrow your boat this weekend . No. [ male announcer ] share more. Save more. At t mobile share for business. Were back and discussing the fact that today is 50 years since the bombingham because thats what it was the Birmingham Church bombing that took the lives of four little girls. And part of the reasons why i wanted to commit this much time on Live Television to thinking about something that happened 50 years ago is, in part, to try to figure out what it says about where we were today. Do you have a sense of that, anthea . I think it says a couple of things about where we are today. One is were willing to forget what history is and were not willing to really remember. So many times what we hear in the media, were past this moment. Theres no racism anymore, and theres no connection between things that happened in birmingham 50 years ago and the deaths of young men and women right now in america. We dont seem to care. So thats one. The second thing is, is that if we dont find a way to connect this history to where we are now and the struggles were having in this nation, whether they be racial struggles, economic struggles, all of these things where people are still fighting for equality right now today, we miss the point. We miss the sacrifice of these four little girls and everything in the civil rights movement. Because we are not finished. Thats the problem. We are not finished, we are in the done. Its been an unfortunate thing none of this is really taught in school. I dont think theres anyone who studies the bombing and the killing of these four little girls. And i think what ends up happening is i mean, in high school. No, that doesnt happen. And so what ends up happening, you get this sanitized, onesentence version of what happened. As like everyone likes to refer to dr. Kings speech as i have a dream speech. Parts of that will be make you very uncomfortable. Like, the negroes have been delivered a bad check. Its like, go back to that. I think what ends up happening to your point, people dont understand the sort of domestic terrorism, the definitions of what terror was and is today and how we think about where we are as a nation, where wherever we have racial strife, gosh, its come out of nowhere and if you would just stop talking about it, melissa, it would go away. Im reminded, joy, you and i were together right after the president made that really extraordinary statement where he said, you know, i could have been Trayvon Martin. Which also reminds us that Trayvon Martin in some 30 years or so, could have been president obama. So every time we see the image of the four little girls and i look around this table and i think, yeah, and here at this table, at this moment are four adult women of color who could have been those girls, but who also those girls could have been here. And whatever it is that they might have been done, whatever it is they could have contributed is gone in that moment. And that is still true when our children are shot. That is still true when our children are taken away by an Education System that fails them and incarcerates them. Like, that idea of who those four little girls might have been some day. And miles college, the hbcu based in birmingham gave them posthumously their degrees. That was one of the things that also happened this weekend. They made that very point that youre making. These girls could have been anything. The first black mayor of birmingham graduated from miles college. They could have been that. The other thing, briefly, is that i think this whole the change from then the now, it illustrated the design of institutions. Because if you think about it, maybe because of a sense of siege. There was a good 20year period in africanamerican history, where you had black churches and institutions organize big National Organizations that actually had a gravity and a moral authority within the black community and nationally. And now you just have much more disparate, smaller groups. There is no more communal black church thats collectively organizing to stop gun violence or collectively organizing to stop. We had a crack epidemic in the 80s, saw it with bussing in the 70s. Thats kind of missing now. Thank you so much for being here. When we come back, were going to go in a very different direction. In 2013, what is the role of miss america . Yeah, seriously, were nerding up miss america right here on the mhp show, next. Weve been bringing people together. Today, wed like people to come together on something that concerns all of us. Obesity. And as the nations leading beverage company, we can play an important role. That includes continually providing more options. Giving people easy ways to help make informed choices. And offering portion controlled versions of our most popular drinks. It also means working with our industry to voluntarily change whats offered in schools. But beating obesity will take continued action by all of us, based on one simple common sense fact. All calories count. And if you eat and drink more calories than you burn off, youll gain weight. That goes for cocacola, and Everything Else with calories. Finding a solution will take all of us. But at cocacola, we know when people come together, good things happen. To learn more, visit coke. Com comingtogether we go, go, we dont have to go solo fire, fire, you can take me higher take me to the mountains, start a revolution hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution brandnew season, keep it in motion cause the rhyme is the reason break through, man, it doesnt matter who youre talking to [ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. Tonight, in Atlantic City, the winner of the 2014 miss America Pageant will be crowned. And perhaps her crown will be less crooked than mine. 52 women, between the ages of 17 and 24, are competing. There is a talent portion and an interview, and of course the women are judged on how good they look in evening wear and swimsuits. And the new miss america wins a scholarship. The Miss America Organization is, in fact, says it is the Worlds Largest provider of scholarships for young women. Gave out 45 million last year alone to women who competed in the national as well as state and local miss America Pageants. And this year, for the first time, the organization awarded scholarships specifically to contestants studying for stem careers, jobs in science, technology, engineering, and math. The miss America Pageant has a so long history. It was first held in 1921. And it was also the site of an important moment in second wave feminism. When in 1968, 400 protesters gathered outside the pageant on the Atlantic City boardwalk. They were there to condemn what one organizer called the degrading, mindless booby girl symbol and the pageants ludicrous standards that we are conditioned to take seriously. The protesters hung the longtime posts of the pageant burnt parts in effigy and filled a trash can with symbols of feminism oppression, copies of the ladys home journal, high heels, and bras. It was once of the first events to bring attention to the nascents women, and it was also the myth of the braburning feminis feminists. They couldnt get a burning permit from the city, though. Joining me now, Debbie Turner bell, miss america 1990. Thank you chloe angel still got it chloe angel, hillary levy freeman, who is a harvard sociologist, and author of playing to win, raising children in a competitive culture, and of course, soledad obrien, ceo of starfish media. Im going to take the crown off for now. I dont think i can sit straight enough. But talk to me a little bit. I mean, you are a woman who has had an extraordinary professional career and yet, i can say, but youre miss america 1990. Theres something about that that is also kind of inherent in who you are. Tell me something about who you are. Or does it . Yes, it does tell you something about who i am. I think you cant ignore that the miss America Pageant is, indeed, a pageant, although i believe its different than all the other systems out there. Its the only one that rewards talent awards, intelligence awards, commitment to community, service, and you said it as if it were our ledge, but it is the largest source of scholarships for women in the world. Thats why i got in it. I was not a pageant girl. I grew up picking scabs, trying to figure out what was around there, because i was interested in science. It was a way for me to get to my goal. It was a means to an end. And by and large, for the women who compete, even today in this realitybased television and social Media Society that were in, its still a way for women who have Higher Education girls to achieve their goals and finance them. Yes, you do have can i ask a question, im just curious about. So when youre doing the bathing suit part, because i think its a fantastic to be able to reward people financially, but then at some point, youre in high heels and a bathing suit and really no woman ever walks around in high heels and a bathing suit in the real have you been to monte carlo. Maybe there but im curious to know, youre like, i get that this is part of the gig, but i guess i i dont think i would encourage my daughter to go for that part of it. The challenge is, the fact that it is the largest scholarship provider almost makes me recoil. I think, why is the largest scholarship provider for women something where, in fact, one would need to wear high heels and let me give you a little bit of insight. First of all, its the heritage of the pageant. It started out as the Atlantic City bathing beauties contest. When women at that time in the 20s were showpieces. They were things of beauty in society. And the pageant really has as opposed to its very different than now. And i believe that the miss America Pageant has tracked very closely to the position and the participation of women in society over the years, starting off as a thing of beauty and now we have miss americas who are lawyers and doctors, im a veterinarian. We have miss americas who are professors. So to your question about the swimsuit, and i understand it. Listen, if i had had a choice not to wear a swimsuit on stage, i would have chosen not to do it. However, the point of it is to promote physical fitness. And im looking around this table, and of course hillary is expecting a child, but nobodys out of shape here. And im going to say, none of us would put on high heels and walk in a bathing suit. But how do you judge that, how do you judge physical fitness and health in a way thats some way substantiative. Thats the way the pageant chose to do it. We all know in this business, how we look matters. Its why i wanted to bring in your scholarship. This sense of sort of the need to somehow defend pageants, right . In part the point im making. On the one hand, you have this pageant that depose back to 1921, that is this large scholarship provider. On the other hand, its pursue that part of the feminist Movement Began with a critique of the pageant. So is there a space for thinking about whether or not they have any value, and what that value is, not just in terms of the scholarship significance, but is there any social redeeming value in them . First of all, i really believe that the miss America Pageant or program, as it has been called over the years, is more of a symptom of whats going on with women and society today, and even feminism, and not a cause of it. So what it does, it reflects society. And when it started, those women who competed in their bathing suits in the 1920s, those were the outsider, those were the scandalous womens. Those were the bad girls. So the Scholarship Program developed to give it some credibility, right after world war ii. And talent was introduced and all of that. And it wasnt really until 1968 the protest that the women started being seen as a little bit backward. And so thats very interesting to think about. You know, in all that time, these were the women who were out there and going to college in the 1950s. Think about that. Yeah, right. This is an interesting point. So when we think about the development of feminism over a period, the idea of sort of being revealing, of being sex positive, of being educated, those are actually aspects that we now think of as central to second wave feminism. To your point about it being a symptom and not a cause, i think its actually a cyclical relationship. I think it is both a symptom and a reinforcement of that beauty standard, of that expectation that women be beautiful first and Everything Else a distant second. Because beauty pageants may well reward poise and talent and skill, but doesnt matter how much talent and poise and skill a young woman has, if she doesnt look a certain way, shes never going to be miss america. But its interesting, because miss america is not really just about being beautiful. If we want to think of that, lets think of Donald Trumps miss usa pageant. Thats a very a different pageant. In fact, its very interesting. If you go to these anonymous Message Boards about miss america, you actually hear people say, shes too beautiful to be miss america. Which is a very interesting theres never been an unattractive miss america, ever. Thats right. Theres never been one like, listen, shes super talented, but, eh, on the looks. Theyre hot, gorgeous women. Theyre attractive. They know how to put themselves together, theyre fit. Theres never been an unattractive miss america just like because theres been an unattractive anchor on a major network. But the reality is, to hillarys point, it really is a reflection of but Network Anchors arent running to be miss america, the symbol of many of them are i mean, in terms of the name, right . Youre miss america, represents the nations values. So i think theres a difference between whos on tv in a network, and i would actually argue, i think there are plenty of people who are regularlooking folks who can be on tv and anchor a newscast or whatever it is and people who are in the pageant. I think that its reflecting this sort of, you know, really beautiful woman that is appealing. And the truth is but its not just stay right there. I want to pick that up. Because were talking about beautiful or not beautiful, but part of this also has to do with the notion of diversity of beauty. So one of the reasons i know who you are is because i follow the black miss america. From the first one, from Vanessa Williams on, i have always been interested in the women who do sort of this different thing. Of course youre gorgeous, but the very notion of racial diversity. I want to talk a little bit about the other kinds of diverseties of beauty that then get represented in this moment when we come back. Ok, i am coming. [ susan ] i hate that the reason were always stopping is because i have to go to the bathroom. And when were sitting in traffic, i worry ill have an accident. Be right back. So today, im finally going to talk to my doctor about Overactive Bladder symptoms. [ female announcer ] know that gotta go feeling . Ask your doctor about prescription toviaz. One toviaz pill a day significantly reduces sudden urges and accidents for 24 hours. If you have certain stomach problems or glaucoma, or cannot empty your bladder, you should not take toviaz. Get emergency medical help right away if your face, lips, throat or tongue swells. Toviaz can cause blurred vision, dizziness, drowsiness, and decreased sweating. Do not drive, operate machinery or do unsafe tasks until you know how toviaz affects you. The most common side effects are dry mouth and constipation. [ susan ] today, im visiting my son without visiting every single bathroom. [ female announcer ] today, talk to your doctor about toviaz. Her busy saturday begins with back pain, when. Hey pam, you should take advil. Why . You can take four advil for all day relief. So i should give up my two aleve for more pills with advil . Youre joking right . For my back pain, i want my aleve. Weve always been on the forefront of innovation. When the world called for speed. When the world called for stealth. Intelligence. Endurance. Affordability. Adaptability. And when the world asked for the future. Staying ahead in a constantly evolving world. Thats the value of performance. Northrop grumman. Mayo . Corn dogs . You are so outta here aah [ female announcer ] the complete balanced nutrition of greattasting ensure. 24 vitamins and minerals, antioxidants, and 9 grams of protein. [ bottle ] ensure®. Nutrition in charge™. Were pack and were talking about miss america. And in fact, part of the reason, i guess, this was important to me in moment, i happened to meet the current reining miss texas in the orlando, florida, airport. I had my daughter with me, whos 11 1 2, and this young woman is a Political Science major, she goes to an all womens college, and shes africanamerican. Yes. And when my daughter met her, she was like, oh, pretty, smart, black lady who might be miss america. And shes being raised by a feminist mom, yet she responded to the idea of having this crown and being smart and competent and nice as she was to my daughter. Is there something about the aspirational nature of the miss america that we still want sort of racial diversity, we still want diversity of women with disabilities. Theres a woman now, a contestant that has tattoos. Does that still matter if were going to poo poo the whole pageant process . I think what does matter is the motivation for the women who get into the pageant. I dont think being beautiful or being talented or being beautiful and being smart are mutually exclusive. So why do we have to sort of dump on a pretty girl . If shes pretty and smart and has some aspirations, then bully bully for her. What has been important to me in the miss america system has been a promotion of diversity. Because there are varying standards of what is beautiful. And for a long time, miss america was this very cookie cutter, very narrow definition of beauty. And as society has progressed, again, the notion of what was considered beauty and what was exulted as beauty in the miss America Pageant also broadened. And therefore there was a Vanessa Williams, and because of a Vanessa Williams, there was a s suzette charles. So theres been diversity in how they look. And there have been eight africanamerican miss americas. Twice, it has been two africanamericans who crowned another one. And that speaks well of the pageant. There could be more diversity, but it is moving forward, as in society. So chloe, i feel your third way feminism broiling at the table. Give me the pushback on that claim. I want to speak to soledads point about jumping through the hoops of wearing a bathing suit and heels to get the scholarship money or to have access to a platform for your cause. Because we all jump through hoops, appearance wise, in order to have access to a platform. Im wearing a lot of makeup right now. Its perfect on tv. And that is a means to an end. Its part of the price of admission i pay for being a part to participate in this conversation. But the fact im sitting here wearing makeup does not make my makeup feminist. I dont see the point in Wasting Energy trying to make a feminist case for beauty pageants. Lets be honest and say we are playing by the sexist rules of a sexist game in order to its a means to an end. Theyre really admirable ends would you want your daughter to if she came in and said, i would like to start doing pageants, because oh, you know that happened. So that happened. And in fact, my elder sister was one of the very first white miss d. C. S. Thats a very long sister. I have a sister who is a woman woman. I was like, wow, theres a lot there. Thats a whole set of things but because my sister is a brilliant lawyer and all these things, i dont it doesnt feel mutually exclusive. On the other hand, the first thing that happened when she said that to me, was a sense of, oh, man, weve got some work to do if im going to have to deconstruct the notion, because i dont i guess this is part of my issue. I dont want her to have to jump through those hoops that were all jumping through at this mom and that the boys in her class will not have to jump through. That, for me, is a place where i wonder if we failed as feminists. I want to speak to that. I have a young daughter too. A 3yearold. I do believe that pageants are useful in a certain time and in a certain space. I would never allow my young daughter to be in a pageant because it reenforces values and issues that are harmful to who she is as a human being at this age. When she gets old enough to understand that her value does not come from a pair of eyelashes or a pair of high heels, then have at it if thats what shes interested in. Theres a difference between a baby pageant and a young woman who knows who she is. This is apparently going to continue through the commercial break, but we are going to take one. Debbie turner bell, chloe angel, hillary and soledad, thank you all so much for being here. I love this table. Up next, a literary classic is under attack, and ive got a footnote about it. We go, go, we dont have to go solo fire, fire, you can take me higher take me to the mountains, start a revolution hold my hand, we can make, we can make a contribution brandnew season, keep it in motion cause the rhyme is the reason break through, man, it doesnt matter who youre talking to [ male announcer ] completely redesigned for whatever you love to do. The allnew nissan versa note. Your door to more. Chantix. Its a nonnicotine pill. I didnt want nicotine to give up nicotine. [ male announcer ] along with support, Chantix Varenicline is proven to help people quit smoking. [ mike ] when i was taking the chantix, it reduced the urge to smoke. [ male announcer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. If you notice any of these, stop taking chantix and call your doctor right away. Tell your doctor about any history of depression or other Mental Health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. Dont take chantix if youve had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. If you develop these, stop taking chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be lifethreatening. Tell your doctor if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, or if you develop new or worse symptoms. Get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack or stroke. Use caution when driving or operating machinery. Common side effects include nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. It feels wonderful. I dont smoke. I dont smoke. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. This week we were appalled to learn that ohio schools leader has called for banning Tony Morrisons 1970 novel the bluest eye from the states common core reading recommended list. She describes the book at pornographic and said, quote, i dont want my grandChildren Reading it, and i dont want anyone elses Children Reading it. It should not be used in any school for any ohio k12 child. Really . You dont want your children to read morrison . The last american to have received the nobel prize in literature, who is from your state, ohio. And youre on the board of education. Listen, besides the obvious antiintellectualism inherent in banning books as a general practice, the attack on the bluest eye is especially egregious. The text tackles difficult themes of incest, abuse, racism, and internalized shame. But the primary narrator is claudia. Claudia is a child. Shes a classmate. Claudia is not sophisticated or experienced enough to understand the reasons for the awful events that she witnesses, but claudia has an unfettered emotional insight into the darkness and brutality of racism and abuse. And because so much of the story is in claudias voice, morrison brings Young Readers not through a gauntlet of pornographic horror but into a deep, empathetic connection with trauma and suffering. In fact, this is precisely the kind of book that teens ought to read to develop both mind and heart. Great books like the bluest eye allow us to imagine and encounter our challenges and difficulties in the relative safety of our classroom so that we have tools to confront real life strugs. When she learned of the ohio state board of educations attempt to ban the novel, Tony Morrison responded, i resent it. Well, we agree. To were encouraging our readers, you, to read a banned book this week. You can find a list of some good ones on our website mhpshow. Com. And tweet our facebook to tell us about your favorite banned book. Were going to add it to our list. That is our show for today. Thanks to you at home for watching. Im going to see you next saturday 10 00 a. M. Eastern. Right now its time for a preview of weekends with alex witt. Thanks so much. New today, the president s first major address since his speech on syria. Also, a protest over the Washington Redskins name. Why would this Campaign Work when nothing else has . Plus, comeback . Paula deen makes her first public appearance. What she says she learned while she was out of the public eye. Plus, the heartbreaking story of a mother who did everything she could to save her child from bullies. Dont go anywhere. Ill be right back. announcer at scottrade, our clients trade and invest exactly how they want. With scottrades online banking, i get one view of my bank and brokerage accounts with one login. To easily move my money when i need to. Plus, when i call my local scottrade office, i can talk to someone who knows how i trade. Because i dont trade like everybody. I trade like me. Im with scottrade. announcer scottrade. Awarded fivestars from smartmoney magazine. From the classic lines to the elegant trim in each and every piece, kohler will make your reality a dream. [ male announcer ] 1. 21 gigawatts. Today, thats easy. Ge is revolutionizing power. Supercharging turbines with advanced hardware and innovative software. Using data predictively to help power entire cities. So the turbines of today. Will power us all. Into the future. The long road on syria. Where will it lead as the u. S. Cuts a deal on chemical weapons . More from the president and one leading democrat next. It is far from over. In fact, some new number on the colorado flooding are scary. On the ground there are still people stranded. Weve got a live report in minutes. 50 years ago today a deadly act of hatred and violence that further changed the course of Race Relations in this country. We go back as the Community Marks the sad memorial. Trying to right this ship. This testament to tragic failure is still there more than 20 months later. But could it be floating away as soon as tomorrow