Transcripts For MSNBCW Meet The Press 20140810

Lawyer greg craig will discuss whether the legal maneuvering against president obama will work or whether its all politics. Announcer from nbc news in washington, this is meet the press. And good sunday morning. With president obama warning against a quick fix, limited u. S. Air strikes have yet to solve the critical situation in Northern Iraq for thousands offy i Diddy Christians who remain surrounded and in fear of their lives. This morning the Iraqi Government claim at least 500 have been killed by isis, including many women and children who were buried alive. The u. S. Is also determined to stop the militants from capturing the strategically important city of erbil in the kurdish area of Northern Iraq home to a u. S. Consulate and hundreds of american personnel. Fighters for the Islamic State are already in control of several key cities in iraq and syria. Im joined by our chief pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski who has an in depth look at why the president started air strikes now. Good morning, david. At this very moment last week nobody at the white house or the pentagon for that matter expected american war planes to be launching air strikes in iraq within the next few days. But according to u. S. Military officials, that rapid and alarming advance by those islamic rebels, the u. S. Could no longer ignore it, sending the generals back to the war room and u. S. War fighters back to iraq. Reporter isis has easily stormed through iraq for the past eight months terrorizing their enemies, forcing religious conversions, and slaughtering those who resist their rule and religion. But president obama waited too intervene militarily until this week when the Extremist Group threatened to topple the kurdish capital erbil. But why now . When isis took mosul in june, the president sent 300 american troops to support and advise the Iraqi Military but not to fight. I think we always have to guard against mission creep. American combat troops are not going to be fighting in iraq again. Reporter but since then the militants have gone on a rampage taking iraqs largest christian town earlier this month, seizing the mosul dam, key to iraqs infrastructure and routing the Kurdish Peshmerga forces last week. But when thousands of yazidi worshippers who forced to flee to escape the brutality, it gave the president the opening he needed. Now any u. S. Military intervention would be framed in part as a humanitarian operation. I believe the United States of america cannot turn a blind eye. Reporter but saving erbil, the kurdish region, the peshmerga, was the most immediate objective. Iraqi Security Forces have up until now not proven themselves to be effective despite a lot of american training which leaves us with the kurds. Kurds have proven to be a loyal ally to the United States. Too much was at stake to let the region fall without a fight. But with no inclusive Iraqi Government in place and little support from nato allies for military action, the u. S. Is going it alone in an openended operation. This is going to be a longterm project. Reporter but critics say the current u. S. Strategy is all wrong. We need to arm the kurds and let them protect themselves and stop trying to hold together an iraq that is already disintegrated. Reporter and the president acknowledged saturday that any substantial progress against isis may hinge on bringing them down not just in iraq but in syria as well. And while american air strikes may keep erbil safer, they will not stop isis, and even with u. S. Support, the outlook may be grim for a long time to come. President obama has vowed he would not send u. S. Ground troops back to iraq but acknowledged only yesterday that the u. S. Military will be engaged in that war for some time to come, and as we heard him just a moment ago, for what he calls that longterm project, david. Jim miklaszewski, thanks so much. Im joined by democrat senator assistant majority leader dick durbin of illinois, a member of the Foreign Relations committee. Senator, welcome. Thanks, david. You heard jims reporting there. Just the goals here, preventing genocide, stopping isis, protecting the kurdish territory, protecting really the integrity of iraq and american personnel on the ground. All of those goals so important. Why are you already talking about limits to this operation . Because only iraq can save iraq. The president has stepped in because of this threatened genocide. I support that. Bringing food and water to these people who are dying on that mountaintop, of course the United States should do that. When it comes to the kurds, yes, they have been the adults in this neighborhood, the grownups, and i think we ought to help them preserve their capital against this isis invasion, and we also want to make certain that the americans that are on the ground are protected. The bottom line is this, there is so much that we can do to help the iraqis help themselves but ultimately they have to save their own country. Talk about isis itself. This is a terror state trying to construct a caliphate, cast off by al qaeda because this group was considered too extreme. Is the problem that the Obama Administration wanting to be something other than president bush got out of the business of confronting terrorism on a big, global scale and just dealt with it in a more limited way, is it an underreaction to the terrorist threat . Dont forget, they invited us to leave in iraq. The president was negotiating after president george bush had this time table for withdrawal, president obama was trying to negotiate the final im talking about the terrorist threat. Im talking about fighting terrorism. The obama team said we are not in the business of a global fight against terror. Were fighting al qaeda in limited forms. This is a big, expansive terrorist threat that has amassed on his watch. Well, theres no question that this isis threat in syria and in iraq is growing and troublesome. The big question is what can the United States do to stop it . If the iraqis come together, oust maliki, put in someone in power who wants to bring in sunnis and shias to govern with the kurds, then perhaps they can do it themselves, but we cannot send the troops. We must not send the troops. Isnt it galling to you as a United States senator that we, the American Military, are targeting assets that isis has in its control that are american assets, American Military hardware that they stole, left behind because we got out of iraq . How many times has this happened in history where the United States with the best military in the world goes in and fights a war, leaves behind equipment and ordnance and then finds it being used perhaps even against it in the next conflict . This is not new. It reflects the reality of war today and it reflects the limitations when it comes to our fight against terrorism. We need to make certain not that many as many argue that we should be in every theater in every war. That is not the United States role. We need to be certain what we do has surgical precision to it and a clear goal of success. If this doesnt work, the goals that have been spelled out which is preventing genocide, stopping isis, protecting the kurds and american personnel, if an air campaign of some duration does not work, what do you believe, senator durbin, is americas responsibility to counter these threats . First, to protect the americans on the ground, number one. To protect american interests in the region, and that means, of course, our friends who are nearby neighbors of this disintegrating chaotic situation. What do you do if it doesnt work a limited air campaign . Escalating it is not in the cards. Neither the American People or congress are in the business of wanting to escalate this conflict beyond where it is today. I think the president has made it clear, this is a limited strike. He has, i believe, most congressional support for that at this moment. To go beyond is really going to be a challenge. Senator durbin thank you, as always, for your views, for joining me this morning. Joined by congressman peter king of new york. And congressman, welcome. Let me challenge you in a different way. Sure. Which is those who would argue, conservatives, republicans, others, that the president has underestimated this, is only using limited action to fight this threat. What more can be done as the president said than just keep a lid on this problem and all of these threats by the United States . Well, first of all, david, this is not just iraq. Isis is a direct threat to the United States of america, and what dick durbin just said and what president obama has said is really a shameful abdication of American Leadership. This isnt iraq were talking about. We cant wait for maliki or the Iraqi Parliament to fight isis. Every day that goes by, isis builds up this caliphate and it becomes a direct threat to the United States of america. They are more powerful now than al qaeda was on 9 11. So dick durbin says were not going to do this, were not going to do that. I want to hear what he says when they attack us in the United States. I lost hundreds of constituents on 9 11. I never want to do that again. We see this coming. So for the president to say were doing air strikes, were not going to use american combat troops, were not going to do this, were not going to do that. What kind of leadership is that . You should not let the enemy know. If these goals are not achieved through an air Strike Campaign of some duration, what would you call for america to do . First of all, we should take nothing off the table. We start off with massive air attacks. I think doing them from aircraft carriers is limiting them. We should use bases in the area so we can have more sustained air attacks. We should be aggressively arming the kurds. We the president says that once theres a unity government in iraq, we will fight alongside and work with the iraqi army. Start doing that now. Why wait months and months before the Iraqi Government is back in place . Every day that goes by isis builds up its strength. Whatever do you as commander in chief, you never, ever tell the enemy what youre not going to do. You shouldnt even tell them what you are going to do. A lot of people listening to this, congressman, say we inv e invaded this country, we took over the country, we occupied the country. We had massive troop levels there, armaments, military hardware thats being used by isis now. This is iraqs responsibility. Why cant or why wont iraq deal with this threat that is a grask threat to its future . First of all, lets put this in perspective. What was done in iraq as president obama and Vice President biden said turned out to be a significant achievement, a great achievement. Iraq was stable. Iraq was a unified government. It was when president obama withdrew all the american troops, when our troops that were in bed with the iraqi troops were taken away, thats when the iraqi army started to disintegrate. When we lost control of al maliki, thats what started it. Theres no reason why iraq would not have worked. The president , he started this. He started this down fall in 2011 with the direct withdrawal of american troops. As far as the weapons being turned over, thats a terrible failure by maliki. We cant say because were mad at maliki and he didnt do his job that were going to sit back and let isis attack the United States. David, they have ten times, 20 times more money than al qaeda ever had. They have much more weapons than al qaeda ever had and isis has hundreds of foreign fighters with them, available to come to the United States to attack us. Thats the reality. When the president says, and he tries to blame this on the Intelligence Community, that they didnt tell them. General flynn was saying months ago isis was going to move to iraq. Fallujah fell months ago. This president did nothing. Always he talks about is ending the war in iraq. All he ended was american influence in iraq and thats the failure and its on his hands and for what a weak leader. Were going to attack this but were not going to do this. Were going to do this but not do that. Can you imagine Winston Churchill you say u. S. Troops on the ground to defeat isis because thats the ultimate goal . I am saying we should do whatever we have to do. People say do americans want to see troops on the ground . My constituents dont want to see another couple hundred People Killed by an attack from isis. Lets not set up the false argument it has to be troops on the ground. We have the entire weight of the American Military plus we can work with the kurds plus we can provide weaponry to the kurds who have been good fighters. No one has been more loyal to us than the kurds. Why wait for the Iraqi Government to come into place. If the president says there is possible military action when they have a government, why wait for that . Lets start now. Congressman peter king, thank you as well for your views this morning. I appreciate it. David, thank you. We want to get more depth in the situation. Im joined by Michael Leiter Nbc National Security analyst. Robin wright, a fellow at the Wilson Center and author of rock the casbah. And Jeffrey Goldberg from the atlantic magazine who did an exclusive interview with Hillary Clinton on syria which we will get to. Im trying to make sense of all of this and theres layers to it. Michael, i really want people to understand what were up against with isis. This is not just a normal terrorist group. This is a terrorist army that now controls land. And i think this would be clear if they kept their old name. This was al qaeda in iraq which has become the Islamic State in iraq and syria. They have the most money getting more and more recruits. Theyre threatening iraq but theyre serious threats to the neighbors in jordan and the Intelligence Community believes that both isis in iraq and syria and other elements of the opposition in syria are absolutely looking to attack the west. Western operatives in iraq, western operatives in syria who can travel easily back to europe and the u. S. Homeland. Thats the homeland terrorist threat that people are most concerned with. Jeffrey, what are we fighting for now in iraq . What are we fighting for in iraq . I think were fighting mainly to keep isis from spreading, id have to agree with that. Thats the problem is that and as Hillary Clinton says, you know, these threats never stay where they are. These groups are expansive in nature. They want to go further than they are. So, a, were fighting if we are indeed fighting were fighting to prevent them from spilling over their borders. Were also fighting for the kurds. The president is hesitant to say that but the kurtz are our key ally and they are in trouble. If they fall, we have even more trouble. Were doing a couple things. And theres the humanitarian picture. We have a selective outrage about humanitarian problems in the middle east. How about the president in 2007 said its not as for humanitarian reason were going to send troops in the congo. How do you pick people to save . You could make a good argument that we have stayed on the sidelines in syria for years where 170,000 people have been killed. Were saving these paeople in iraq . Its a devilish problem, i will admit that. Robin, i dont know that everybody understands when we talk about a sunni shia split, its what has given isis space to grow, like fuel for a forest fire. It keeps attracting more fighters and more energy because these are disaffected sunnis from syria through iraq. Absolutely. The sectarian problem is one we see now across the middle east and its beginning to redefine the borders that have shaped that region now for a century. And i think this is not the only place were likely to see this. But it plays out, remember, in 2006 when the u. S. Was debating sending in the surge, one of the questions was can you achieve a military goal but the separate political goal at the same time, and the joint chiefs of staff said we can push back what was then al qaeda. The question was can you solve the diplomatic problem, can you get the shiite dominated government to embrace the sunnis in a way that they will feel contained . And sure enough, we sent in 30,000 additional troops, we achieved the military objectives, but we never solved those political objectives and the problem is at the core of this conflict is not the ya i did i did genocidal problem, it is can they come to terms with each other in a way thats inclusive and just. Isnt the problem here, jeff, that the president is playing catchup . This is a president who is determined to leave iraq. Hes right, there was a status of forces agreement that got u. S. Troops out, but there was no you went from president bush dealing with maliki in iraq directly and then the new president comes in, back of the hand to iraq. Did we waste the influence that we could have had on this government to try to prevent the creation of this vacuum that isis is now filling . Hes right to argue that ultimately the solution is an iraqi solution. If iraqis cant pull it together theres really not much that the u. S. Can do. On the other hand, yes, there are ways to intervene early in this process that probably would have helped the iraqis not only fight isis but try to pull together some kind of Political Coalition that works. Your thoughts on this . Well, i think, first of all, this is not an iraq problem, not a syria problem, it is both. There is no border anymore. Now it becomes a terrorism problem. Absolutely. Its a regional problem. We can stop militarily theres no doubt we can stop them from taking over erbil. But thats just putting the lid on it. That is minor. Youre still going to have an isis controlled caliphate across the region. As jeffrey said, the iraqis are obviously key to the solution. We cant solve it without them. They cant solve it without us either. Theres obviously a political dimension to this not just for now but in the 2016 context. You interviewed Hillary Clinton. You talked about all of these issues, including syria. We know she disagreed with the administration. She wanted to support syrian rebels. Here is what she told you in part in the interview. This is secretary clinton speaking to you. I know that the failure to help build up a credible fighting force of the people who were the originators of the protests against assad, there were islamists, there were secularists, there was everything in the middle the failure to do that left a big vacuum which the jihadis have now filled. Thats pretty blunt. I think this week she feels and people around her, supporters of hillary and supporters of intervention, feel like shes been vindicated by events. Its impossible to know whether u. S. Intervention in syria three years ago the weress says thats a fantasy the president says its a fantasy. Hillary clinton says its not a fantasy. We will never know. On the other hand, its pretty obvious that by staying on the sidelines not only the u. S. But the entire west allowed what became isis to fill a vacuum. I think what shes saying there is reasonable analysis and, you know, obviously these are questions Going Forward that shes going shes obviously beginning a process of maybe distancing herself from some of the policies she disagreed with and in this interview with me i think she went a little further than she usually has in distancing. Thats interesting. It is interesting now because were looking at a 2016 race where republicans say, you see, weve lost American Leadership in the world which is what president obama campaigned on as well. And we always react to the last person in power. The line against obama will be underreaction to the threats. Yes. And the interesting thing is hes the fourth president to be involved in iraq, and when you look back at the record of what it took to when we engaged last time, the First Bush Administration dropped 265,000 bombs on iraq. President clinton in a fourday period dropped 600 bombs, 400 missiles, and second president bush used 30,000 bombs. The idea that a few 500pound bombs are going to make a difference, i think we have kro crossed a threshold when it comes to our involvement. Its not something thats going to last a few weeks or months. I think were back in. I think weve crossed a threshold when it comes to what the Islamic State sees as our role. The great danger is this becomes a mobilizing rallying cry to draw thousands of other not only arabs and muslims to the cause but westerners as well. Its not to say they wouldnt be up to this had the United States not had a presence in the region. Its not as if these rn good boys and girls on the sidelines and then america came and decided to become bad people. But remember that there was no al qaeda in iraq before the u. S. Intervention. There was no hezbollah in lebanon before the israeli invasion. There are sometimes unintended consequences. Please remember that the 9 11 attacks were not caused by the 2003 invasion of iraq. So lets get the sequencing right. Final point, michael, the ultimate threat from isis that you look at as a counterterrorism specialist now that plays out over the short term and longer term. The ultimate threat is an american who goes to either syria and iraq, trains, gets experience on weapons, comes back to the United States, we didnt know they were there, and they set off improvised explosive devices in new york, washington, or somewhere else. Thats a real and concrete threat. Thats what the administration has to be worried about. Thank you all very much for your perspective. Coming up here, the u. S. So divided politically. We will take you to one major city where even crossing the street can take you from republican to democratic territory. Most everybody is united in support of the green bay packers. Its when we get to partisan politics that these divisions become deep. Our political round table up next. Chuck todd, andrea mitchell, rich lowry, and congresswoman Donna Edwards all weighing in. Plus, are republicans about to do what they did to bill clinton, and try to impeach president obama. Newt gingrich and greg craig are here to discuss the prospects of success in the legal battles against president obama. Announcer meet the press is brought to you by boeing, where the drive to build Something Better inspires us every day. Honey, look i got one to land. Uhhuh announcer theres good more. Honey, look at all these smart rewards points verizon just gave me. Ooh, you got a buddy. Im like a statue. I just signed up and, boom, all these points. And theres notsogood more. Youre a big guy. Huh. Oh no. Get the good more with Verizon Smart rewards and rack up points to use towards the things you really want. Now get 50 off all new smartphones. That would be my daughter hi dad. Shes a dietitian. And back when i wasnt eating right, she got me drinking boost. Its got a great taste, and it helps give me the nutrition i was missing. Helping me stay more like me. [ female announcer ] boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. All with a delicious taste. Grandpa [ female announcer ] stay strong, stay active with boost. Where the drive to build where the drive to build coming up here, what was the one word uttered by this woman in iowa that prompted senator rand paul to abandon his lunch and make a quick exit . Well reveal it with our round table coming up next. We are back. It is august. We are back. It is august. That means theres plenty of news to discuss because anybody who covers news knows that august is the most busy time of the year. Our round table is here to discuss a lot going on. Our political director chuck todd. Donna edwards, democrat congresswoman from maryland. Rich lowry editor of the National Review and our chief Foreign Affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. Are we closer to the events this week in iraq of identifying what is the true obama doctrine. He told tom friedman, obama made clear that he is only going to involve america more deeply in places like the middle east to the extent that the different communities there agree to an inclusive politics of no victor no vanquished. Did we learn something here . I think we learned a lot, and what we learned is this contrast between barack obama and Hillary Clinton in her interview with jeff goldberg. How do you say that we have a humanitarian mission here in iraq with the ya i did zis and not the syrians where 170,000 people are dead . Thats what Hillary Clinton would say to jeff goldberg. How do you say that syria arming the opposition was fantasy of barack obama when Hillary Clinton lays out a different and i think going to be an escalating differentiation between her and barack obama. Here is the big criticism, rich lowry. This was a reaction to president bush and president obama said we are not going to be in war against terrorism. Now he faces something quite vast. Obviously he wouldnt be president of the United States if it werent for his opposition to the iraq war, but here it is iraq where his view of how the world should work is being discredited by the day. He thought iraq wasnt important, he thought we should have less influence and involvement in the middle east generally. He thought there were all these alternatives to military force. These were all exaggerated or wrong and thats why you have isis on the march. And you have a politically vulnerable president on vacation in Marthas Vineyard with people saying youre checked out here while the world is going up in flames. Look at our poll, chuck todd, you detailed this week, not just the president s Approval Rating at 40 , now 54 disapproval. You go inside the number, overall approval 40 . Handling the economy, only 42 approval. Handling of Foreign Policy, 36 approval. The first half of his presidency that was always his strength, handling of Foreign Policy. He always did better than his overall job approval. Now its worse. And he really is in an odd political box because hes giving the country the Foreign Policy it wants, okay . The country wants less interventi intervention. The country wants less of these wars. The country wants to retreat. There is this isolationist streak in the country, less intervention, all of those things. Hes giving them that Foreign Policy. Its a very in some ways poll perfect Foreign Policy that the president is doing, and its seen as less popular. Its seen as less stable because it looks as if hes not leading, events are leading him, and i think that thats what the country is reacting personally to him, that this is like where is the leadership . What is going on here . You dont seem to have your arms around us. Congresswoman, the flip side of this, this is pragmatism, it might be recognition of the limits that the United States have instead of rushing to do something that might be counsel per productive. I think thats somewhat true and i think the president in his statements with tom friedman probably indicated he realizes theres no political solution in iraq and he also knows that in order to defeat isis or to put a stamp on them, he has to consolidate that political power on the ground, and its a recognition that if the kurds, sunnis and shia are all on the same page politically, they stand a better chance of using right, but what do you do to enforce that . These are huge goals. Well, look, we have the selection of a prime minister, the selection of a president. I think were closer to having a political solution where maliki is not in charge of things but the president didnt want to be involved in this political influence game. He shied away from doing it in iraq. Exactly. This is the shame of the situation. Obama never ended the war in iraq, as he said. He abandoned the war in iraq right at a time when wed achieved a fragile stability that we might have been able to maintain thats not quite fair. The Iraqi Government he inherited that decision. The Iraqi Government did not want the United States to stay in iraq. Lets be really clear about that. We have to come at the invitation. But this president ideologically did not want to use more they were not this was not an administration that was eager to tell maliki you dont want a Strategic Forces agreement . But your original question is what did we learn about the doctrine . And i think i have been trying to figure this mans doctrine now for sick years. He doesnt have one. He ran basically with the wink and the nod that this was going to be a george h. W. Bush type of Foreign Policy, stability and diplomacy first, okay . And yet he has been pulled in different directions. His instinct actually is very george w. Bush like which is democracy, freedom. No winners and losers. Look at the way he had interv e intervened early in the arab spring and then realized that was a mistake. Its almost like hes pushed pushes and pulls between the idea of democracy first versus stability first and he goes back and forth and hes messed around with democracy first in egypt. Didnt work. In libya, didnt work. He admits it now. And now hes trying for stability first, and i think in this case hes struggling. Right now tactically hes being held hostage to endless negotiations to get maliki out and to decide that youre not going to do anything until you have a government is to wait forever and is to permit isis to do what it has done and arguably and to say he didnt have intelligence. This is not a hard target. This is erbil. We have people there. The fact is there was intelligence, and to say that they were shocked by the peshmerga on saturday night being routed is a farce. Even if everyone with the best intinentions prevail in baghdad, theyre still going to need massive help from the United States. You read the best reporting about what happened when we were negotiating with the iraqis, there was zero interest in the administration in cutting that deal and he bragged about how he end the war. I want First Campaign ad for reelection, that was the number one highlight. Lets turn back to domestic politics. Iraqs politics are tough. Ours are just as tough in many ways. Here was a moment this week that involved senator rand paul in iowa who was confronted during lunch by a selfdescribed dreamer, somebody who was able to come in, a child of Illegal Immigrants who was here as part of the dream act or the executive order rather. This was that confrontation. I am actually a dreamer myself and im from originally from mexico but i have been raised here. I graduated from Arizona State university and i know you want to get rid of da ca. I want to give you the opportunity to get rid of it to rip mine. Thats a striking political issue. Its a serious political issue. This is political theater which has a big place in politic. Here was rand paul saying here is not a conversation i want to be a part of. Serious political instincts. His people say he had another interview. These socalled dreamers are the single most sympathetic subset. They are the first people i would amnesty by law if we had a workable system of enforcement but thats not an excuse for doing it lawlessly the way the president did. What he did is part of what has become the magnet for the border crisis. The signal is sent, you are young, you get here illegally, youre going to stay. You wrote this this week, it gets to a bigger issue and all this talk of impeachment. You wrote, the signs are that president obama is going to proceed with a massive unilateral amnesty that will affect one of his most important legislative goals bout the legislatu legislature. As a brazen distortion of our constitutional system this move will provoke a major reaction and at the very least lead to more calls for his impeachment. For rand paul what that little clip demonstrated is the fact that you cant run on wanting to be an inclusive Republican Party and run away from immigration and he did exactly that. Let me talk more generally about the divide in this country. You go around the country and people talk about it because its unhappiness with our government, its reflected in the numbers weve been talking about, our nbc news wall street journal poll found 79 of voters are dissatisfied with the political system. One big example of this political divide is in the milwaukee area as our Kevin Tibbles found in this weeks meeting america. Reporter on a gorgeous summer evening in menomonee falls, wisconsin, the local High Schoolers may be dancing in the streets but the politics here are anything but a walk in the park. Everybody is united in support of the green bay packers. Its when we get to partisan politics that these divisions become deep. Reporter when Charles Franklin conducted a poll for the Marquette University law school he found a state so politically entrenched republicans and republicans dont even live in the same neighborhoods anymore. It changes dramatically from deep blue to deep red right at the county lines and it just leaps out at you. Reporter here in milwaukee, there is a dividing line. One side of the street republican, the other democrat. Within the city, 63 give president obama the thumbs up. In the suburbs, its 64 thumbs down. And the republican governor, scott walker, enjoys 63 approval in the suburbs and 61 disapproval in the city. Neighbors worlds apart. In the city at glorious malones, the specialty Meats Company started by her mother in their kitchen. Got to move fast. Biff me three at a time, baby. Youre a natural. Daphne malone jones watched a business grow by word of mouth. Its so delicious. Reporter and when partisan divisions within the beltway spread, she says its bad for the business of nation building. How do we come together from both sides so we meet in the middle and accomplish the task . Reporter back in menomonee falls, a. J. O bradys owner Bruce Russell has a rule behind the bar. Dont talk about religion, dont talk about politics. Reporter patrons, on the other hand, will discuss the political deep freeze. It seems to me that years ago you could have a conversation about politics with somebody that was different than you. Today you cant. Everybody is so hard core in what they believe. Theyre so set in their ways, and im that way also. I have had to put up with obama for two terms now. Im not a fan of the health care act. Reporter while some in the suburbs support suing the president over his handling of the Affordable Care act, city minister Clarence Montgomery calls it an unhealthy distraction. Good governance and what theyre doing as far as this lawsuit is concerned, its an oxymoron. Its easier to say no than to sit down and say how can we find a yes . Reporter what would it take for a thaw . This wont change until it becomes electorally destructive to one party or perhaps both. Aint no Mountain High enough reporter until then the political peaks and valleys will likely keep the two neighborhoods apart. For meet the press, Kevin Tibbles. At least theyre still dancing in milwaukee. Chuck, i thought that was really until it becomes electorally destructive to one or both parties this wont change. Until voters change the incentives for both sides. Until you reward. Thats whats happened. We dont have an electoral system where swing voters matter. They dont matter. We know what the middle wants. Until you have candidates that feel as if they have to move away from their base in a general election more often or that they will lose and if thats gone, youre going to get this. I thought it was interesting in the friedman, the president saying our system of government in some ways right now is worse than some of the stuff hes seen in the middle east. Thats quite the shot at his political opposition. If there is turnout, i think there could actually be a revulsion, a reaction against the donothing congress with all apologies to you. Dont take it personally. But the donothing congress, the infective white house leadership, just sort of washington at large, and i think theres either going to be people staying home in masses which is really upsetting to anyone who cares about democracy or perhaps an outpouring of throw the bums out. Its the idea that we face big challenges and that our system, our entire system of government, is not up to the challenges that we face. Thats whats daunting, frustrating, and beyond. Demoralizing to people. I have a slightly different take. Our system of government is designed to make it hard to do big things and you really do big things only if theres a National Consensus or if one Party Controls both the legislative and the executive and thats relatively rare. But if you think things are poisonous and divided now, just wait until president obama does this big unilateral am mess sti hes talking about. Its going to be much worse because it would be a stark hijacking of the legislative function with malice aforethought and theres going to be huge reaction to it. Well, thats a big exaggeration. Look, i think that people out there sort of vote for candidates who are authentic who speak to their needs, who speak to what it means that will make a difference in their lives, and i think that any candidate who is running for office now who is authentic, who says im on your side and this is what i want to do to help you out are the candidates who are going to win and those will be people who then begin to reflect the broader body of american politic. Im going to leave it there and in the prediction and this question of what comes next is actually where were going to go next in the program when we come back. So thank you all very much. So how the political system has so unraveled that the politics of impeachment is being played on both sides. Two key players will join me in a minute. They were involved in the impeachment of bill clinton, Newt Gingrich and greg craig are joining us. Thats next on meet the press. Theres no reason we cant manufacture in the United States. 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Ill be joined by greg craig who served as president obamas First White House counsel, also a key member of president clintons Impeachment Defense Team and Newt Gingrich who is, of course, republican speaker of the house before president clinton was impeached in 1998. First, our justice correspondent, pete williams, has an analysis of whether the lawsuit against the president or the possible of impeachment have any legal merit. Reporter 40 years ago Richard Nixon became the first u. S. President to resign after a House Committee voted to impeach him. Now theres talk of it again, this time against president obama. What hes engaged in are Impeachable Offenses. They include fraud on the American People. Reporter but does any of it amount to high crimes and misdemeanors, the constitutions grounds for impeachment . This president has about as much chance of being impeached as being elected the next pontiff. Right now he has not committed any Impeachable Offense that i can see. Reporter Republican Leaders insist they have no interest in impeachment but in a legal long shot the house has voted to sue the president over his order delaying for a year the requirement that businesses provide Employee Health insurance. The suit will come to the federal Government Court at the foot of capitol hill, but judges are reluctant to referee fights between congress and the white house, so the suit will have to overcome a legal obstacle that could stop it at the courthouse door. The Supreme Court has tossed out lawsuits against president s brought by members of congress in the past ruling that those who sue must have a personal stake in the outcome, a claim theyre harmed in a way no one else is. Another problem, theres a new house every two years and its the previous one that passed obamacare. If nancy pelosi wants to sue on behalf of that house, that might be a different question. I think it would still be tough, but at least thats more plausible. Reporter but some say the court should step in to clarify the boundary lines. When the courts remove themselves from these fights, they leave the parties with nothing but muscle politics, the type of dysfunctional and negative acts with he see all the time. Reporter if the lawsuit is heard, it might not be over until after president obama leaves office. For meet the press, pete williams, nbc news, washington. Greg craig and Newt Gingrich are here. Welcome both. I want to talk about the politics of this, the policy of it, but greg let me start with you on just the law. You heard rich lowry say if the president takes action unilaterally with executive power on an attempt to deal with illegal immigration, providing a path to citizenship for a large group of people, that the response will be furious. Is that a legal response . Is that just a political response . I think thats a political judgment rather than a legal observation. I do think that the question of impeachment boils down to whether the politics will change dramatically over the next three or four months. One of the things that might change the politics is precisely what rich identified, if the president takes action on immigration that the majority of the American People disagree with, then you might have a change in the chemistry of impeachment to prompt that. Another thing that might happen would be if the senate gets captured by the Republican Party in november, that might change the chemistry and the politics of impeachment for the coming session. But is there an evolution of what we think of as the utility, the role of impeachment as we think about president nixon to clinton to they talked about it with bush and obama as well . Weve often had one or two or three members of a party saying we ought to impeach the president of the other party. Thats nothing new. If you google impeachment suggestses, there are lots of them. The challenge is very different. The president , and you ran into this yourself on the advice on guantanamo. The president would have liked to close guantanamo. One of his highest priorities. He still hasnt closed guantanamo because in our system there are larger realities that shape this thing. This president s worst issue is immigration. If he comes around labor day with some grand scheme by executive order the right thing for republicans to do is pass a bill saying its wrong in the house, taunt the Senate Democrats who are up for reelection to get the bill through senate and say to the American People do you want to stick with the venezuelan style anything i want a president or do you want to go back to the constitution, these are the two parties in november and then in january the Republican Senate and Republican House just cuts off the money. You dont have to impeach a president to control him. You can just cut off the money. Let me say on this, arent we at a point in our politics and the argument will go both ways, who has contributed more, republicans or democrats, efforts to delegitimate president s that go back even in recent times, happened to bush, to clinton, to president obama. That impeachment is discussed more as means of recall than it is the legal action it was originally intended to be . Well, i might disagree with you. I think impeachment provisions in the constitution were politically intended. They were intended to remove a president who was abusing the powers of the presidency, and the Legal Process by which it is done is quasilegal. Its primarily and fundamentally a political process, and thats why i dont think youre going to be able to organize a serious impeachment effort over the objections of the American People. Thats what they tried to do in 1998, and the American People punished the republican period of time in the midterm elections in november 1998. Dont you want to pull some republicans aside and say, please tell me youre not thinking about this. Every republican i talk to with a handful of a couple fringe figures, every republican i talked to knows it would be a dumb idea. They know that the people who most want an impeachment are the president and his team. They raise money off the word impeachment, they mobilize their base off the word impeachment. This is like lucy and the football. The president would love for us to be that dumb. My prediction is republicans are going to if he does do something around labor day, they will pass a bill repudiating it in the house almost overnight and then do you agree this white house has been overly cynical, how they have used the impeachment talk . You cant ask their attorney that. In a moment of candor he buckles. Hillarys radical candor. Give us that. Joule 234 you will not be surprised to learn that democrats would be deeply suspicious of a republican controlled house and Republican Controlled Senate in the last term of a secondterm president. Its been done once before. It could be done again, and so i dont think its entirely cynical always i have to say my emails are filled up with money to fight off impeachment. Its really quite true. Bottom line, any legal action goes nowhere. Right. Against president not just impeachme impeachment. This is a crowd management, crowd control the right fight will come in january and the right fight is cutting off money. You wont be able to enforce this. No money will be allocated for it and thats at the core of the american constitution system. Quickly before we go, you were on the defense team for John Hinckley, jr. This is coming up, brady has passed. Its been ruled a homicide. What was your reaction to that and where does that go . Well, im not surprised first of all, we mourn the death of jim brady. He was an extraordinary man and a Great American leader who contributed a lot to our public life and were sad hes gone. And probably there is much to be said that the contributing factors to his death was the head wound he suffered. So i cant say that theres anything unrelated to that. I cant change the notion that its a homicide. But the idea of retrying John Hinckley after a 3 1 2 week trial where he was found not guilty by reason of insanity on the question of the assault of brady is not going to happen. It shouldnt happen. Well leave it there. Speaker gingrich, greg craig, thank you both very much. I appreciate it. I want to return before we go to where we started, the big question for the week well be talking about as the week wears on, the isis threat in iraq. Is president obama doing enough . You can find our big question and weigh in on the debate on our facebook page. That is all for today. Well be back next week. If its sunday, its meet the press. We only get one opportunity to take a look at these scenes. They are only the scene one time, and there were a lot of folks down there. Emotions were running very high. I know that we certainly understand that. I know that chief jackson and the Ferguson Police department appreciates that. An emotional 24 hours in a st. Louis suburb where an officer shot an unarmed black teenager. Police today are laying out their version of events. We have all the new details. Also, tony stewart, one of the biggest stars in racing, not racing today. Hes pulled out of an event after hitting and killing a