Gordon sundland circumvented the National Security council and the normal white house process to pursue a shadow policy on ukraine. We already know that guiliani worked through american diplomats and others to pressure the government of ukraine to carry out investigations that would benefit the president politically and he continued to do so as the president froze u. S. Military aid to that country. When it comes to that military aid, we are also learning from the Washington Post that Gordon Sondlands testimony which is scheduled for thursday, quote, will raise the possibility that trump wasnt truthful in his denial of a quid pro quo. According to a person familiar with his testimony, quote, sondland intends to Tell Congress that the content of a text message he wrote denying a quid pro quo with ukraine was relayed to him directly by President Trump. At the same time sondland was reacting to ambassador bill taylors bombshell assertion that i think its crazy to withhold Security Assistance to help with a political campaign. But before responding to that text, sondland first spoke by phone to trump, who told him he, quote, didnt want a quid pro quo or anything from ukraine. Sondland then passed trumps assurances along to taylor in their Text Exchange saying the president has been Crystal Clear no quid pro quos of any kind, as the Washington Post now reports sondland plans to tell lawmakers he has no knowledge of whether the president was telling him the truth at that moment. Trump has been citing that text message from sondland as part of his defense. The text message that i saw from ambassador sondland, who is highly respected, was theres no quid pro quo. He said that. He said, by the way, its almost sounded loo ik in general he said, by the way, theres no quid pro quo and there isnt. Of course when it comes to hills testimony today and sondlands on thursday, we know what theyre expected to Tell Congress not whether they actually have told congress that. Again, that hearing is behind closed doors. It is still continuing as we go on the air tonight. Right now i am joined by democratic congressman from colorado, a member of the house judiciary committee, Ashley Parker a White House Reporter for the Washington Post, the former chief of staff to cia director michael hayden, and a former republican congressman from florida. Thanks to all of you for joining us. Let me just start with you. Again, we have all of this reporting preceding fiona hills appearance today, the appearance still under way right now. Do we have any sense of what has been transpiring behind those closed doors . I mean, so far we have reason to believe that she told the lawmakers what we expected her to tell them. Again, there may be some interesting specifics and she may not have said some stuff she planned to, but our understanding is that she went in there and she did convey what she said she was going to convey, which is that she was incredibly frustrated that Rudy Guiliani and Gordon Sondland were basically running a shadow secretary of state doing end runs around her, around the National Security council, and that this was a real problem. And, also, that she was incredibly outraged at the way the president handled recalling the ambassador to the ukraine, who was a career professional and basically who testified previously that her time there was cut short because Rudy Guiliani and two of his associates sort of attacked her personally in part because she believes that they didnt like her tough on corruption stance and they felt these associates that she was preventing them from some of their financial and business dealings in ukraine. Congressman, im curious, what is the significance when fiona hill apparently and according to the reporting in advance of this was going to testify about her view that there was a shadow ukraine policy that was put in place there circumventing sort of the normal, established route of setting policy. What is the significance of that to you . Well, good to be with you, steve. Obviously we dont know what miss hill testified to during todays deposition. Well know that soon i suspect. To the extent it is consistent with what the public reporting has already revealed i think it would again add to the substantial body of evidence that there really was a premeditated and comprehensive Shadow Campaign being perpetrated by mr. Guiliani at the behest of the president of the United States. And to me, that obviously is extremely damning and, again, adds to the clear evidence that shows an abuse of power by this president. So i think as more and more of these Civil Servants and witnesses testify and as we learn more about the president s conduct, i think the American People will conclude that this president did in fact abuse his power. You said something important there. I think you said hopefully well know soon what was testified behind closed doors today. This was also the situation on friday with yovanovitch. Critics are saying if this is an impeachment inquiry these hearings should be in public or transcripts should be made available very quickly thereafter so that every member of congress not just the few who are behind closed doors for these meetings and for the public to get a chance of what was said. Do you agree with that . I think its a ludicrous argument being made by the republicans in an effort to obfuscate and distract from the president s egregious conduct. At the end of the day obviously these transcripts i suspect will be released but it is important that witnesses not be given an opportunity to coordinate their testimony and i think chairman schiff has done a masterful job in terms of the cadence, the scheduling thus far of these depositions. I suspect and he has said that some of these witnesses may very well testify in public hearing as well. So i think the proceedings as they have gone through so far have been done as they should and, again, i think the American People will have the full panoply of facts before them as we ultimately reach some judgments ahead. I just, to be clear, because ive seen, i have not seen anything too specific on it but youre saying you expect the transcripts to be released. Is that part of a plan . Is that part of the democrats plan, your understanding, transcripts being released publicly . What i would say, steve, i cant speak as to both whether the transcripts would be released and if so on what timetable. What i am conveying is i am sure members of congress will have access to those transcripts and i think, i suspect that eventually the American Public will as well. But ultimately that will be a decision made by the chairman and chairwomen of the respective committees that are heading the impeachment inquiry. Okay. That was the testimony. Again, it is still playing out right now. Fiona hill today and meanwhile a person familiar with the ambassador sondlands testimony that is coming later this week told the Washington Post that sondland and others tried to convince trump to meet with the ukrainian president just after zelenskys inauguration in may. However, quote, the president ended the meeting saying, if you want to do something, you have to talk to rudy. Sondland is expected to testify that he, quote, worked at the direction of Rudolph Guiliani to secure the investigations trump was seeking from ukraine but he will reportedly say that he and others did not know that it was, quote, really an effort to impune the reputations of biden and his son hunter. Larry, im curious. This reporting from the Washington Post, what fiona hill is apparently up there testifying about today with this idea of a shadow Foreign Policy, are you familiar . Have you ever encountered a situation like that before where according to son had london the president says you work this ukrainian policy through rudy his personal attorney and not through the normal policy setting mechanisms . No, steve. Absolutely an unusual series of events there. Sure, have president s in the past relied on private citizens to help conduct Foreign Policy . Yes it has happened but in an above board, public manner. The individual is given a title and will work closely with the state department w. The National Security council. This was clearly an effort done in a hidden fashion, shadow is an appropriate term for it. I think fiona hill is somebody able to lay out for the committees how Foreign Policy is normally conducted, how policy is normally developed, how it was being developed in this administration, and the concerns she had when she and her colleagues started to see reflections of this other activity. Carlos carbella you know many of the republicans well, im curious, i think matt gates came out today and made a pretty dramatic objection to the procedure behind closed doors but in general you know them pretty well. How do you think they react to hearing from somebody like fiona hill about a shadow Foreign Policy being run through Rudy Guiliani . Well, the first thing ill say, steve, is im not surprised that fiona hill offered high praise for Marie Yovanovitch. I met with the ambassador in 2017 in ukraine. A consummate professional very much on top of her game and very knowledgeable when it came to the region and explaining to the delegation that was there what was happening and what our plan of action was. It makes sense someone like fiona hill would praise her in testimony today. I think republicans in some cases are making legitimate arguments about process, process does matter here. I think the democratic majority has to take into account two elements as they proceed, number one, transparency and i think chairman schiff could do a little better in that space being more transparent, more forthcoming. Secondly, sobriety. To the degree republicans are using these process arguments to deflect attention from some of the central issues which you just mentioned the way that Foreign Policy was being carried out, that is unacceptable. The president seems to think that conducting Foreign Policy is like trying to put together real estate deal in manhattan and thats just not how it works. You can understand how professionals like Marie Yovanovitch would be shocked and very disappointed in getting caught in the middle of that. I think again and ive said this before there is a pass fail test here for republicans regardless of what they think about impeachment specifically is the president s conduct acceptable or not . Is this request that a foreign leader somehow get involved in our political process acceptable or not . Of course it isnt. Republicans certainly have a right to criticize everything they want but should be forthcoming and truthful about the central questions being investigated here and of course the president s conduct is not acceptable. Its wrong. Related to something you said a moment ago the New York Times reporting that fiona hill, quote, viewed the recall of ambassador Marie Yovanovitch from kiev as an egregious abuse of the system by allies of mr. Trump seeking to remove a perceived obstacle, according to a person familiar with her account who says hill and others objected strenuously to the removal of the ambassador to ukraine only to be disregarded. Larry, there are several different pieces here that seemed to be emerging. You had yovanovitchs testimony, the Opening Statement last friday, now fiona hill amplifying that and the question later this week with sondland testifying about whether there was a sense that there was a quid pro quo in terms of the president s intent. Absolutely. We have a group of individuals who were working this issue, these ukrainian issues. They were frustrated. They were seeing stated policy being undermined. And i think they worked together probably with the whistleblower to create that whistleblower complaint that got the ball rolling. I think well continue to see people come out of the woodwork now to offer their evidence, to offer their testimony, and ultimately weave the tapestry that the story ultimately becomes. Ashley, just looking ahead to Gordon Sondland and his testimony, this is somebody, we played the clip there, this was somebody whose Text Exchange the president was citing just a couple days ago trying to say, hey. Just read his text. It clears me. Says no quid pro quo. Now according to your newspaper, the sondland is going to testify he didnt know when the president told him that whether it was true or not. He was just relaying it. Is there a sense in the white house that what they thought sondlands testimony was going to be is turning into Something Different . Well, it certainly is changing. Originally not just the president but you would talk to people in the white house when sondland was first told that he was unable to testify that first time who were disappointed because they thought he would basically be a character witness for the president. An exonerating witness. And now he is preparing to say that when he said there was no quid pro quo he was passing on what the president told him and basically hes going to say it is true that the president told me that there was no quid pro quo. But i dont know if the content of what the president told me was actually true. So when potentially your business witness is now raising the possibility that the president of the United States might have lied to him, it starts to look a lot less rosie. All right. Ashley parker, congressman joe neguse, larry pfeifer, Carlos Curbelo thank you all for being with us. Coming up the guiliani wild card. One report says some people close to the president want him to cut ties with his personal lawyer but trump at least for now is sticking by him. I know nothing about him being under investigation. As somebody said i heard a report today. I cant imagine it. He is a man that looks for corruption and whatever he does i really believe is a totally i know he is an honorable man. There is going to be a big stage tomorrow night and big stakes to go along with it. The first democratic debate since joe biden got dragged into the ukraine controversy. Also, Bernie Sanders first event since his heart attack. And on the eve of the new debate brand new polls. Weve got National Numbers, key early state numbers, and one question that got some very interesting answers from democratic voters. We have a lot more to get to. Stay with us. Do your asthma symptoms ever hold you back . About 50 of people with severe asthma have too many cells called eosinophils in their lungs. 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Guiliani was his lawyer but defended him saturday. He went on twitter and said so now they are after the lengdary crime buster and greatest mayor of nyc Rudy Guiliani. He may seem a little rough around the edges sometimes but he is also a great guy and wonderful lawyer. The New York Times reports a short while later guiliani had lunch with the president at his golf course in virginia and the president gave his strongest praise for guiliani in an interview with fox news on saturday night. There is some confusion as to whether or not you still consider him your attorney. Is he your attorney . Yes, and he is a great gentleman, a great mayor. But one of the greatest, maybe the greatest mayor in the history of new york. He was a fantastic prosecutor. I know nothing about him being under investigation. As somebody said i heard a report today. I cant imagine it. Hes a man that looks for corruption and whatever he does i really believe he is a totally i mean, i know he is an honorable man. The New York Times columnist explored guilianis efforts during a recent trip to ukraine writing thanks to guilianis escapades the domestic grudges of a crooked ukrainian prosecutor have blossomed into a scandal that is likely to lead to the impeachment of an american president. For more, my guests, thank you both for being here. You went to ukraine. You looked at this. What did you see over there . First of all you have to understand that guiliani was getting a lot of his information from this disgraced prosecutor named lutsenko who is basically feeding guiliani what he wants to hear. He since said as much. He had to leave ukraine because he is under criminal investigation and also named in that indictment of two guilianis colleagues and told reporters from the New York Times ive been in politics a long time. I knew what they wanted to hear. He thought what they wanted to hear was that ukraine intervened in the 2016 election by basically framing Paul Manafort. To believe all of this you have to believe Paul Manafort who is in prison in part because of failing to disclose and pay taxes on the money he took out of ukraine you have to believe that the anticorruption activists who publicized the fact that manafort had taken this money, you have to believe they settled it up in an effort to undermine trump and it was somehow false and Paul Manafort is wrongly accused. It is completely preposterous. The whole thing has this up is down quality that is sometimes i think a little hard to convey because you cant expect americans to keep all these different ukrainian characters and kind of internal politics of ukraine straight. When youre there, it is just so clear that what guiliani was doing was basically smearing some of the most devoted anticorruption figures in ukraine because of a very corrupt prosecutor who has a grudge against them. Im curious. How does this story look to folks in ukraine . What are you hearing from people . How is it playing over there . First of all, theyre quite frightened about being dragged into the middle of american domestic politics and really rely on american support. Several people told me they felt they were being, were afraid of being, quote, left alone with russia. Theyre currently locked in this proxy war with russia. And so to have the american president basically turn on them is extremely destablizing. There is also, this is a country that has dealt with such a history of corruption. You know, five years ago they had a revolution. Their very corrupt russian aligned oligarch fled the country to russia. Theyve tried to transcend a lot of that and then you have the american president and his lawyer basically demanding that they become more corrupt. And then finally i think for the people who have been smeared by guiliani its had real repercussions for them. Again, because america is so important in ukraine the relationship with america, to have the lawyer coming out and saying all these terrible things about you, it can kind of reverberate. Speaking of Rudy Guiliani, there is the new report tonight from the wall street journal that federal prosecutors have looked even at his financial records, his bank records, what potentially could Rudy Guiliani be facing here . Theres just a host of investigations going on. The New York Times has reported this foreign lobbying registration act violation that apparently they had been looking into for sometime about whether or not he was involved in actually lobbying for this corrupt prosecutor. That is one thing. Another is was he involved with this fricke and frac who were indicted last week . Was he part of that . What was his role . How much money did he get . What does that mean about conspiracy to commit Campaign Violations . Now we know theyre looking at all his bank or many of his bank records and his business dealings in ukraine which could bring up a whole host of other things. Theres really three areas of investigation going on with him right now. And were i he, i would be concerned that it looks like, a, theyre looking at his stuff. B, it looks like there was some kind of surveillance in the frik and frac indictment investigation. You can tell that by looking at it. And, c, either frik or frac might flip on him. This is a guy with a lot of problems. Let me give awe quick d he hasnt been interviewed yet. What we know about federal investigations and the way weve always done them, sort of like a swirling tornado. You go around and around and every way you can before you get to the center and actually interview the subject or the target of the investigation. That looks pretty much to be where Rudy Guiliani is today. He has not spoken to federal prosecutors yet but in terms of offering a defense the New York Times reports this, quote, mr. Guiliani said that federal prosecutors had no grounds to charge him with foreign lobbying disclosure violations because, he said, he was acting on behalf of mr. Trump. Cynthia, what do you make of that defense . I know you pointed to several possible areas but in terms of lobbying he says, look. The president authorized me, deputized me to do this. They are not mutually exclusive. He could have foreign lobbying violations and could be doing the investigation for the president. Whats interesting is the president ial his comment about the president ial investigation hurts the president. Its just one more piece of proof that they were nosing around improperly in the ukraine. He has essentially thrown the president under the bus in that. Dont think you cant do a and b and c. He could have done it all or none of it. Well just have to wait and see what there is. It is not a defense in other words. The arc of the Rudy Guiliani public story, everybody can think back to 2001, 2002, americas mayor. I dug up an nbc poll. His negative rating was 2 back in early 2002. Fast forward 17, 18 years and this is what were talking about tonight. You know, i think everyone with very, very few exceptions who gets involved with donald trump disgraces and ruins themselves. Michelle goldberg, thank you both for joining us. Up next escalating chaos in syria after the rapid withdrawal of u. S. Forces from Northern Areas of that country. How long before americas adversaries including russia, iran, and isis move in and exploit the vacuum that is being left behind . Youre watching hardball. L. If you live with diabetes, why fingerstick when you can scan . With the freestyle libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader, iphone or android and manage your diabetes. 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Ah, id love to, but people get really emotional when i sing. Help from a team that will exceed your expectations. Thand find inspiration who win new places. Ct. Leading them to discover were woven together by the moments we share. Everything you need, all in one place. Expedia. Welcome back to hardball. Its been a little over a week since President Trump approved a small turkish incursion into northeastern syria and since then the region has been plunged into violence and confusion. One Senior Trump Administration official told the Washington Post the situation on the ground is, quote, total chaos. Facing intense criticism from both parties President Trump today announced new sanctions against current and former officials of the government of turkey and any persons contributing to the destablizing actions in northeast syria. The president is apparently seeking to get ahead of similar bipartisan sanctions making their way through congress. Moments ago Vice President mike pence told reporters that trump called the turkish president today to ask for an end to the invasion and for an immediate cease fire. The news comes as Turkish Forces plowed deeper into syria. Under siege and on the run kurds have turned to their old adversaries, syrian president Bashir Al Assad and his russianbacked military for backup to push back against turkish fighters. On friday Turkish Forces launched multiple artillery rounds near u. S. Special operations out posts. Video and photographs have alleged atrocities by Turkish Backed fighters have been circulating on social media and the images verified by multiple u. S. Officials. The syrian observatory for human rights reported 800 members of the camp Holding Families of isis fighters had escaped. Nbc news has been unable to independently verify that claim. For more i am joined by the former Senior Adviser to president obama for the counter isis campaign. Thank you for joining us. So the president initiated this new policy a week ago. Now today says he is preparing sanctions and calling on turkey to stop this incursion. Is he going to get his way now . Who knows . This is incoherent and abnormal even by President Trumps standards because he is now sanctioning turkey for taking actions he basically endorsed as you say a week ago. He is calling on them to try to take action to preserve the isis detainees when they are in no position to do so. He is sending out mike pence to try to negotiate a deal between turkey and the kurds which is what had been, what was happening at the time president erdogan called and President Trump spoke and they agreed or seemed to have agreed on this incursion. It is incoherent. There may be still a chance to at least limit the turkish incursion but a lot of harm has already been done. There are these reports again, havent been verified but some reports about isis fighters. Your sense of, you know this issue as well as anyone. How much damage has been done on that front just in terms of the isis threat . Its hard to say. What is selfevident is that if the kurds had to, who are taking care of those camps and monitoring them, have to now turn their attention up north because they have turkish troops that are coming in, by definition, even under the best of circumstances, theres going to be something happening to the detainees. Some are going to flee. I dont have the numbers. I dont know that we could verify them in the fog of war. It certainly is a situation, former chaotic, and what is truly tragic is that all of this was predicted and predictable. And last december President Trump said he wanted to withdraw and the time, the last nine months should have been spent trying to organize a withdrawal rather than do nothing and now have this precipitous decision which is causing so much harm. A lot of the criticism certainly from both parties over the last week has focused on the kurds. Has focused on the Longtime Alliance between the United States and the kurds. The idea of americans having sort of an obligation there given what the kurds had done when it comes to fighting isis. Now there is news that in response to this policy the kurds have gone and forged an alliance with assad. Is that alliance now here to stay . Im not sure it is an alliance. It is a tactical alignment of objectives. You have the kurds who right now feel defenseless and the one party that is on the ground that has the same objective of trying to push back against turkey is the regime. There is no love lost between the two. Its lets see how far that goes. Russia may have to step in to try to reach an agreement between the regime, the kurds, and turkey. But, you know, again. It was clear for sometime that the United States was going to withdraw because President Trump said it. It was telegraphed. And they could have had ways of arranging, helping the kurds negotiate a better deal with the regime. Now theyre doing it in a state of utter weakness and that was not at all inevitable. American commandos working with Kurdish Forces have been uncharacteristically outspoken about the situation in syria, one army officer when discussing his former kurdish colleagues told the New York Times, quote, they trusted us and we broke that trust. The withdrawal is a stain on the american conscience. Higher ranking officials like the former defense secretary james mattis and retired four star general john allen had these more public warnings. Isis is not defeated. We have got to keep the pressure on isis so they dont recover. We may want a war over, may even declare it over. You can pull your troops out as president obama learned the hard way. Out of iraq. But the enemy gets a vote, we say in the military. In this case if we dont keep the pressure on, then isis will resurge. Its absolutely a given that they will come back. And so much of what we have done over the last four years has been undone in the last 96 hours. It is really frustrating to watch this happening. Im just curious. What do you think turkey makes of this . They had this goal, this strategic objective, this plan the president seemed to sign off on. What does turkey make of the United States right now . They must be as confused as everyone frankly. President erdogan who felt that the administration was hostile to him, he felt he had a line to the president and that lasted as long as one of President Trumps tweets lasts and now we are in a situation where again he has threatened to have sanctions imposed as a result of actions President Trump basically endorsed. The precipitous withdrawal, betraying a partner, giving isis a new lease on life, leaving the region confused, it is giving ending this war a bad name and that is one of the legacies of the president s decisions. Robert maley, thank you. Up next Elizabeth Warren coming on strong in new polling out of some early primary and caucus states. A National Poll today. Heading over to the big board to take a look at that and asked a very interesting question that affects three of these democratic candidates. Ill show you what the question is and what voters said about it. Stay with us. Youre watching hardball. All. A topbrand at a great price. Ready to upgrade. Moving in. Moving on up. Or making big moves. Deliveries ship free and come with a 100night free trial. No matter your budget. Or your sleep style. We have quality options for everyone. So search and shop. Save and snooze. And rest easy, knowing that weve got your back. Literally. Thats what you get, when youve got wayfair. So shop now. I felt i couldnt be at my best for my family. In only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. I faced reminders of my hep c every day. But in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured. 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And i dont wait when i return, thanks to drop go. At national, i can lose the wait. And keep it off. Looking good, patrick. I know. vo go national. Go like a pro. Welcome back to hardball. Guess what . About 24 hours from now another democratic president ial debate. Theres going to be 12 candidates on that stage tomorrow night, gigantic, and the stakes are pretty big, too. Those first primaries and caucuses getting closer and closer. How does the democratic race look heading into this next debate . Brand new numbers to show you on the eve of the next democratic debate out a few hours ago a new National Poll on the democratic side this one from quinnipiac. Look at that. Elizabeth warren. Weve seen this in a number of polls continuing now to lead. She has pulled a 30 nationally in this poll. Joe biden second at 27 . Third place were now used to seeing sanders in third place but no. He is 20 points almost behind Elizabeth Warren. 16 points behind joe biden. The heart attack the questions about his health and campaign is that having an impact on Bernie Sanders in the polling now . This poll showing him further behind than others. Nobody else in double digits. Buttigieg, Kamala Harris 8 and 4 , the National Picture heading into this debate. How about the early stakes cbs poll, three of them. Start in iowa. Look at that. Almost a three way tie. They got biden, warren, they got sanders. All within a point of each other. By the way, Pete Buttigieg there 14 . Not far off in fourth place there. They got four candidates really sort of in the mix. Harris back at 5 . Tom steyer at 3 . How about New Hampshire . You can see there. Next door neighbor Elizabeth Warren. Massachusetts. That media market goes into southern New Hampshire. There she is. Eight points ahead of biden. Sanders all the way back at 17. He won New Hampshire a couple years ago. Reminds you how big iowa is. Boy, if warren could ever win iowa, and then she went to New Hampshire already with a lead, that would put her in pretty good shape to pull off the onetwo punch that has proven to be a very good thing to do if youre trying to win the democratic nomination. They didnt win nevada. They looked at South Carolina. Biden continues powered by very strong support from black voters, continues to run very far ahead in South Carolina, Elizabeth Warren a very distant second place. The question for biden can he get through iowa . Can he get through New Hampshire . Can he get to South Carolina . Still looking like a strong candidate . If he does, this would be very big for him. By the way, one other interesting question. You look at biden, warren, sanders. Each one of these candidates if elected would be over 70 years old on election day if biden and sanders were elected they would hit 80 during their first term. Weve never had a president that old before. Voters in a cbs survey, not quite a National Poll but got a lot of democrats in and asked democratic voters do you think any of the candidates are too old . Check this out. Start with Elizabeth Warren. She would be 71 at her inauguration. 4 of democrats said they think Elizabeth Warren would be too old to be president. How about biden at 78 . 28 said joe biden would be too old. These are democrats. How about this . Bernie sanders 79. 43 . Remember, this coming after he had that heart attack a couple weeks ago. They polled this question before. The last time they did sanders the number was down in the 30s. It is now moved up to 43 . Again, to the extent that matters to democrats, not quite clear. But there is a big difference there. 71, 79, 43, 4 in terms of saying too old. Interesting finding. Up next a look at why tomorrows democratic debate could be a moment of truth for many candidates. Youre watching hardball. Woman 1 i had no symptoms of hepatitis c. Man 1 mine. Man 1 . 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Com through the at t network, edgetoedge intelligence gives you the power to see every corner of your growing business. From using feedback to innovate. To introducing products faster. To managing website inventory. And network bandwidth. Giving you a nice big edge over your competition. Thats the power of edgetoedge intelligence. Welcome back to hardball. The fourth democratic primary debate is tomorrow, a Record Number of candidates, 12 of them, are going to be on stage in westerville, ohio. It is the first debate since the impeachment inquiry began and since Bernie Sanders suffered a heart attack. As politico notes, quote, with so many candidates responding to circumstances beyond their control, and the threat of a destablizing moment running high on a stage that is expanding to 12 candidates from 10, it is raising a specter of a debate tuesday that finally breaks the Democratic Party log jam and also notes the debate comes as many lower polling candidates become increasingly desperate to make a mark on the campaign. Hawaii congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard who did not make the stage back in september was originally threatening to boycott this debate and accused the dnc and Corporate Media of rigging the election but said today she would participate in the debate. This will also be the first debate for Billionaire Tom Steyer who has been calling for impeachment for years now. I am joined by the nbc news Senior Editor and eddie glaude professor at princeton university. The idea this could break the log jam open, where are you looking, Bernie Sanders, his first one since the heart attack. Joe biden obviously connected to the whole controversy about ukraine. There were all the concerns about his performance in the last debate. Who are you looking at specifically on the stage tomorrow . It is a little hard to see whether this is going to produce that break in the log jam for a couple reasons. Number one, 12 people up on the stage it is going to be hard for anybody to get a lot of time to talk. Unless some of the folks on the outer edges are going to start throwing some brick bats it is hard to see how they make that kind of impact. Plus we have the impeachment inquiry going on where joe biden is at the heart of it. That is so much dominating the news cycle for everyone, for our network, for all news. It is really hard to see how the movement happens among those candidates. Weve really got that three person front running team with biden, Elizabeth Warren, and Bernie Sanders right there. It is very, very hard to see how any of that changes while impeachment is hanging over this particularly since president biden, excuse me, Vice President biden and his son are at the heart of the whole conversation around impeachment. Same question to you. You have 12 options to choose from. Who are you looking for tomorrow night . Anybody in particular you look at . Just the dynamics theyre up against here . Well, i generally agree with beth but i think two things. One, joe biden has to be strong. Hestrong. He has to show that he can actually fight donald trump. I think he has been hit in the chin. And, yeah, his response hasnt been great in terms of the way in which donald trump and his campaign has come after him. Biden also has to, in some ways, show, put forward a vision that suggests that hes not just simply a candidate from the past but someone who can put forward a vision for the future. Im looking at sanders and warren. It seems to me that Bernie Sanders has to differentiate himself from warren, who has now become, in some of the polls, the frontrunner. She is going to have to, in some ways, withstand, i think, a barrage. Im interested in how she responds to how the centrists will attack her. Im interested in how sanders will differentiate himself from her. Im curious about that, too, beth. Buttigieg has made a few comments in the last few days that he may go after warren. She has been rising slowly if not steadily. If not the frontrunner, shes the cofrontrunner with biden. Will she get more heat on this stage . Yes and Pete Buttigieg has been creeping up. Hes building up his organization there. He has been taking a little bit of veiled shots at senator warren saying this is a very dire time. Its not a good time for a purity test. Clearly shes taken up that moderate space or trying to and louisia Elizabeth Warren is goinging the other direction. Bernie sanders is starting to differentiate himself if her as eddie was mentioning. Joe biden saying we need a president not a planner. Elizabeth warren presents herself as a person with all these plans. Throughout these debates and her whole campaign shes very smooth. She doesnt trip up. Nobody has been able to trip her up yet. So far she hasnt. That new poll, National Number out there, quinnipiac National Poll. Warren is at 30 nationally among democrats. You start to look at the groups of voters shes doing best with, self identified liberal, College Educated white voters. Look at her polling with black voters in that poll. She is still almost 31 trailing joe biden. Is that a group she can ultimately break through or is she facing more of an obstacle there than folks appreciate . I think when we drill down into those numbers, steve, theres some generational stuff. She seems to be polling well, if my memory corrects if my memory is correct, among younger africanamerican voters. If shes successful in iowa, if she turns the corner in New Hampshire, im not convinced that the firewall of africanamerican voters will hold for joe biden. Joe biden, for many africanamerican voters, their loyalty to him, steve, is tied to president obama, of course. But its also bound up with the safe choice that we think that we need to get trump out of office and that biden may very well be the safest choice that they can make. But if biden doesnt do well in iowa, if he doesnt do well in New Hampshire, im not sure that logic will hold. Over the weekend, former Senate Majority leader harry reid gave a warning to 2020 democrats. He said dont underestimate trump. I used to think that donald trump was not too smart. I certainly dont believe that anymore. I dont think hes intellectually a powerhouse but hes basically a very, very smart man. No matter what the subject, any argument he involves himself in, its on his terms. Anyone that thinks trump is going to be beaten easily should have another thing coming. He is not going to be beaten easily. Its going to take a campaign of wisdom and patience, but he is beatable, for sure. This morning, trump tweeted about that. He said thank you, harry. I agree. Beth, im curious, what do you make of that . You look at polls right now. Donald trumps Approval Rating 42 , somewhere around there. We keep showing these headtoheads. Warren has been leading him, biden leads him. Is harry reid overreacting to a narrow victory for donald trump in 2016 . Harry reid is one of the canniest operators in politics. He knows a winner when he sees one. We also know what happens in 2016. Harry reid is totally right. Interestingly enough, if these numbers and scenario were played out for any other person besides donald trump, we would say that person was sunk, jim he carter, what have you. He has never been above 50 , these numbers always under water but hes donald trump. He has always managed to get himself out of every jam. A political houdini. Everybody has seen that. Thats what harry reid is saying there. Its smart for democrats to take that heed. What harry reid is channeling there, how much does that weigh on democratic voters . In terms desire to get trump out of office, i think it matters a whole lot. I think harry reid is implicitly saying that donald trump will appeal to resentments. He will plate cultural war card that he will be a formidable candidate. At the end of the day if were going to hear what harry reid is saying, democrats need to Pay Attention to the turnout game, that whats going to win this election is not worrying about donald trump. Its worrying about turning out their voters. And if they concentrate on that, then victory will not necessarily be guaranteed but definitely will be in eyes view. Eddie, beth, thanks to both of you. Be sure to tune in tomorrow night for postdebate analysis with brian williams, nicolle walla wallace. Make sure to flip over as soon as the debate is over. And were back after this. Over. And were back after this. Ive ur service, every time. Our 18 year old was in an accident. Usaa took care of her car rental, and getting her car towed. All i had to take care of was making sure that my daughter was ok. If i met another veteran, and they were with another insurance company, i would tell them, you need to join usaa because they have better rates, and better service. Were the gomez family. Were the rivera family. Were the kirby family, and we are usaa members for life. Get your Auto Insurance quote today. I am totally blind. 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Stop chantix and get help right away if you have changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, depressed mood, suicidal thoughts or actions, seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking, or lifethreatening allergic and skin reactions. Decrease alcohol use. Use caution driving or operating machinery. Tell your doctor if youve had Mental Health problems. The most common side effect is nausea. Talk to your doctor about chantix. Hi. Maria ramirez mom maria Maria Ramirez. Mcdonalds is committing 150 Million Dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs. Prof Maria Ramirez mom and dad Maria Ramirez to help more employees achieve their dreams. Before we go tonight, chris hasnt been here the last few nights and he wanted to let you know why. Chris is recovering from Prostate Cancer surgery last week. The procedure went well but is taking a few days to get back into fighting shape. I know hes looking forward to being back here very soon. Thats hardball for now. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in, the third witness of the impeachment era. Arrows continue to point in one direction. Tonight, what we learned from Donald Trumps former russia adviser with one of the democrats who was in the room. New reporting on a rudy investigation. Im bring a pretty good lawy another impeachment witness suddenly changing his tune. Plus senator chris murphy on why the new trump sanctions for turkey are nonsense. Now im sort of an island of one again. Polling suggests there may be a dark horse canned at a time in iowa not named warren, sanders or biden