Transcripts For MSNBCW Hardball With Chris Matthews 20190129

Criminal counts, including obstruction of an official proceeding, witness tampering, and five counts of making false statements. Today, White House Press secretary Sarah Sanders, who held her first press briefing in 41 days, was asked if the president was considering a pardon for stone. Heres what she said. Is the president ruled out a pardon for roger stone . Im not aware of that. I havent had any conversations regarding that matter. Will you discuss it with him and let us know . Im not going to get into that at this point, but if need be, well let you know. Just to follow up, can you guarantee the president wont pardon roger stone . Again, im not going to talk about hypotheticals that are ridiculous. Today, mueller has accused six of trumps advisers or associates of lying multiple times to federal officials. Raising the question of why they keep lying. The whitaker comment today comes moments before the House Intelligence Committee announced Michael Cohen, president s personal lawyerer and fixer, would appear before the committee next week. Last week, he canceled a public appearance, citing threats against his family. In what seemed like a telling move, he announced a shakeup of his defense team, adding a former federal prosecutor and a criminal defense lawyer. Im joined tonight by natasha bertrand, staff writer for the atlantic, and danny cevallos, msnbc legal analyst. With your reporting, natasha, is this thing coming to abend or is it i think its coming to an end . How did you read Matt Whitaker, the acting attorney general . The context in which Matt Whitaker said this didnt seem like he was making an announcement. It soundled like he was kind of speaking off the cuff, responding to a question that was asked by a reporter. And for all we know, he may have been alluded to press reports that have said that the investigation may wrap up as soon as february. That being said, i have spoken to people who used to work at the fbi who say that in this context, in a press conference like this, they would have prepared for this question and they would have prepped whitaker for how to answer it. So i dont think we can write off his statement completely. But i do think its very difficult to believe that the Mueller Investigation is going to wrap up by february or even by march given everything that happened last week with roger stone. The fbi agents carted out documents, computers, things that will require all of these agents to go through forensic analysis of his Electronic Devices and it doesnt seem like thats going to be able to be done by march. Theres also the question of whether or not roger stone is going to reach some deal with the special counsels team. If thats the case, those negotiations are going to be going on throughout february. So i really dont think that were going to see any kind of final report, certainly, issued by next month. On top of that, we still have rick gates, who needs to be sentenced, who is still cooperating. We still have the mystery grand jury subpoena that was brought before the Supreme Court and theyre currently fighting that out. So there are just a lot of loose ends that still need to be tied up. Matt whitaker apparently has been telling people behind the scenes for quite some time now, its my understanding, that its going to wrap up soon, but with no end date in mind. Danny, all this has to do with russia and whether there was collusion. We know theres a russian conspiracy. What role did trump and his people play. How do you see it coming together . Because this thing seems to be very strange. This arrest, how did you, rather dramatic arrest this past week of roger stone. A guy who clearly had some connection with wikileaks and therefore with russia. How do you tie that into the end of this investigation . Is this kind of an arrest you would have near the end or in the course of it . This is an arrest that signals other than whitakers statements today, that theres likely more to come in the Mueller Investigation. Going back to whitaker, the chief concern when whitaker was installed as the interim attorney general was that he might compromise the Mueller Investigation. And now, critics have proof of that, at least even in a tinea way, because whitaker today revealed information that is a first. No one has revealed any information about the Mueller Investigation from the mueller team. So whitakers critics now have something to seize upon that he even answered a question about the progress of the investigation. What makes it even stranger is that it doesnt appear to be an accurate guess by whitaker. Because the mueller team now has just arrested roger stone. With roger stone, they have a new treasure trove of evidence they may have seized or if roger stone cooperates, he might give them new tendrils of investigation in this gigantic whitecollar investigation. So from everything we have seen, the redactions in the indictments, the sealed documents, those are all indicators that there is more investigation to be done. So whitakers statements today were both incongruous and potentially to the trump investigation. The dirty trickster spent this weekend blasting muellers indictment of him, by the way, speaking to anyone who was willing to listen, stone made the television rounds to savage the special counsel investigation. Today, stone indicated he would not cooperate with prosecutor mueller. Are you willing to cut a deal with mueller to avoid going to trial . I dont answer hypothetical questions. I have no intention of doing so, however. Natasha, this is the kind of tease we have been watching from this guy for decades. This is what roger stone does. He taps right up to the tiptoes right up to the edge of the cliff and dances on it for a while. Hes been doing it all weekend. Whats he up to, besides narcissism . What do you make of it . I think hes trying to get more donations to his Legal Defense fund. His supporters dont want to see him cooperate with mueller, and he needs money in order to keep this fight going. He also knows the more he keeps this fight going, the more famous hell be. I do think, its interesting the president now has to kind of dance this very, very fragile dance with roger stone, because if roger is intimating he might be willing to cooperate with Robert Mueller and he might be willing to talk about, you know, the associates on the campaign that maybe he has information about, then the president really has to be careful about what he says about roger stone. So whereas he has trashed Michael Cohen in the past, for example, for cooperating with mueller or for other witnesses who are indicating they might become rats, quote unquote, he cant really do that with roger because roger seems to be a very fickle person. If he gets any sense that the president might be turning on him, then i would not be surprised at all if roger would turn on the president. That mention by our press people, two of our kraunlts, asking Sarah Sanders whether its going to be a pardon or not, seems to be probably what roger wants to hear, right . Natasha, he wants to hear the pardon is still in the air and still possible. Yeah, of course. And roger is also saying he would not address a hypothetical, but hes also, of course, not ruled it out. I cannot imagine that roger would turn down a pardon, especially because he thinks hes been the target of a witch hunt throughout the last two years. It just doesnt seem like it would be in his character to say no to the president , who of course, he has been loyal to up until this point. And that he sees kind of as his ally in this fight. Thank you so much, natasha and danny. Im joined by California Democratic congresswoman jackie speiers. How do you read this little, well, this huge tease from Matt Whitaker today that this thing is coming to an end . I dont know if its coming to an end at all. I dont know that Matt Whitaker is the source of all knowledge on the Mueller Investigation. He certainly is being briefed, but i think that Robert Mueller has more indictments up his sleeve, not that i have any information, certainly, but that would be my suspicion. Go further with your suspicions because im curious about what are on this committee have to think. Why does everybody lie . Why did roger stone get accused of lying, why did roger flynn lie . I dont know if theres a conspiracy, a lot of people think so, but the fact theyre lying about it is obvious. What possible motive is there except theres something really dirty there they dont want anyone to know about . Thats precisely it. Theres no question that trump was trying to do a deal with the moscow hotel. He wanted that to be kept under wraps. He didnt want to be in a position saying he was negotiating with russia and putin during the campaign, because it would have affected his chances of winning. I am absolutely astonished at how readily all of these individuals are willing to lie to congress. And to think that theyre going to get away with it. The emails that are in that indictment, i encourage all of your viewers to read, because there is no question that roger stone was there attempting to silence another witness, trying to prevent him from coming forward. And who was up to his eyeballs in lies and, i think, corrupting behavior as it related to the russia involvement in the Trump Campaign. What would you like to hear from Michael Cohen . Hes got a couple new lawyers. Hes lawyering up. Hes going to show up before your committee, wouldnt do it oversight, now hes going to talk to your committee. What are you hearing about his news openness to speak . His new openness to speak is his effort to try and turn over a new leaf, and im sure it has something to do with his desire to want to reduce his sentence because he really values his family. I think what i would like to hear from him is more about the ten years in which he served donald trump and what conduct would he assess was illegal that he was asked to do under the trump organization. There are three properties that were part of this whole effort that have a lot of russian money in them, both the toronto hotel, the soho hotel, and the panama hotel. Theres corruption there in my view. Theres russian money. There is an effort to, i think, launder money. And i would like to hear more about that from him. In his new memoir, former governor Chris Christie shares an interesting anecdote in which trump and kushner genuinely believe the russian thing, as they called it, would be over once they fired michael flynn. Heres christie recounting that exchange on nbc. Having lunch with the president , and Jared Kushner after hes fired michael flynn, they thought that would end the russia investigation . Yeah, he said, listen, flynns the only guy who spoke to the russians, apparently, so i think this is going to end it. I just laughed. I said mr. Trump, its unfortunate i have teal you this, but having done this myself for a living, were going to be talking about this on valentines day, february 18. They laughed out loud. Jared told me i was crazy. Congresswoman, how could the president be stuck on fly paper, because he is. He cant get off of it, and hes the fly, from not knowing from day one he was involved. How can a guy believe hes so incent i innocent or that all he had to do was fire flynn and he would be free . Because thats how hes dealt with business problems in his career. You either sue someone, get rid of someone, and that sort of takes care of it. He runs the presidency like hes part of an organized syndicate. And i think that he thought that would do it. You know, its really palpable when the fbi director comey before our intel committee, one of the few open hearings we had, when he said the investigation was being opened on the Trump Campaign and its involvement with russia. It wasnt just the russian intervention in our election. And i think everyone up to that point had thought that it was over, but certainly, it was not. We thought watergate was going to be over some time in the summer of 72. It certainly was naupt, and nixon thought it was over. Thank you so much, u. S. Congresswoman jackie speiers. For mow, im joined by june kim, a partner in the law firm of cleary gottlieb. Thank you for joining us. Lets talk about the law here. Matt whitaker lets out accidentally or freudian slip, this thing is about to end. Apparently, the experts we had on in the last 20 minutes think no. Where are you . I was surprised to see that he would say that. Normally, as he said in the press conference, you dont comment on ongoing investigations or the timing of when they would be completed. Its hard to imagine that it was a mistake, as you do prepare for those press conferences, and you would have expected a question about the Mueller Investigation. I dont know what to make of it. Its hard to think that it is going to be completed very soon because there was just this arrest and search warrants related to roger stone. So at a minimum, you would want to at least go through those materials and figure out if there are any additional charges that might, you know, that could be made now with the additional evidence. So its hard to know what to make of it. I think most people in this country, and that includes, they dont want to hear it, but curious, did trump play ball with the russians to get himself elected, to screw Hillary Clintons chances, to win the election, and in so, basically hurt our whole electoral system. Will we get that answer for sure from mueller . Will the Justice Department under barr or whitaker get us that information so we can all see the facts . You know, just the way criminal investigations work, you know, youre going to investigate what you can. Youre going to bring charges if theres the evidence meets the standard beyond a reasonable doubt. And normally, thats it. Your prosecutors speak through their charges and dont speak otherwise. Here, with the special counsel, there is this regulation provides for a report that the special counsel provides confidentially to the attorney general and then the attorney general decides whether to make it public. So there is that additional possibility which doesnt normally exist in federal prosecutions of a report. You dont need to you may never get to the answer. Cutting to the chase, if you cant indict a president , can the special counsel tell us what the president did . The bad he did, even if they cant indict him . Will they tell us how awful this gets . My guess is hes going to include some of this information in the report. The information, he needs to explain why he brought certain charges and why he didnt bring other charges. So to the extent the answer to those questions will get into the other evidence and other information that may not be an indictment or the subject of trials or charges, i would think that the report would include that. Again, how much of that will be public and how much will be redacted or withheld, thats a question. Were not going to stop searching. Thank you so much for coming with your expertise. Up next, President Trump had one of his worst weeks as president . Dont you agree . Allies knocked him for caving on the wall, and republicans said he had nothing to show for his shutdown fight. And that includes all the republicans. Plus, theres a new challenger to trump, and shes drawing huge crowds. Senator Kamala Harris of california kicked off her campaign this weekend surrounded by, look at that crowd, trump must be envious as hell. 20,000 real people. Not some count his characters came up with. 20,000 actual look at them, you can see them in oakland for Kamala Harris, and shes running against trump. Meanwhile, a popular republican may be inching toward challenging trump in the primary. A very popular governor who looks like hes inching quickly to run against trump. Back after this. 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Equinox is jumping out at me. That red is saying, like, im a fun car. If i wanted to be a cool dad, the traverse. I like the blue one. The red one. And i would take that traverse. Well, luckily you dont have to agree, because no matter what you want in an suv, chevy has the perfect one for you. Man 2 i think you got it covered. Woman i love them all. laughing at panera, we treat soup differently. With vine ripened tomatoes, signature cheddar, simmered to perfection. With big flavors, not artificial ones. Enjoy 100 clean soup today. Panera. Food as it should be. Welcome back to hardball. As he begins this week, President Trump is reeling. After last week ended with a remarkable cave on his demand for a border wall, today, nancy pelosi extended an invitation to the president for his state of the union speech, announcing the new date as february 5th. Capitulation on the wall may have ended the fiveweek Government Shutdown, but it leaves the president weakened and bracing for more challenges ahead. A Bipartisan Group of lawmakers will begin meeting on wednesday to try to hash out an agreement on border security, including the wall, but the president has already thrown cold water on those negotiations. The president was asked about the deal in the next three weeks. He said, quote, i personally think its less than 50 50. The president also wouldnt rule out another shutdown, calling it certainly an option. When a pair of interviews yesterday, acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney backed up the president s threat. Is the president really prepared to shut down the government again in three weeks . Yeah, i think he actually is. Keep in mind, hes willing to do whatever it takes to secure the border. At the end of the day, the president s commitment is to defend the nation, and hell do it either with or without congress. Im joined by Yamiche Alcindor, steve israel of new york, and former chairman of the Republican National committee, michael steele. Is this president weaker this week than he was starting last week . I think if you ask the president s opponents and if you ask independents, i think they see the president as weaker because he really ended the shutdown on Nancy Pelosis terms. However, the white house is sticking to this idea that the president hasnt given up ground here, that hes only said that after 35 days of holding up the government, that hell have this Committee Work on wall funding and that he will in some way get the money for his wall, but its really very clear that the president is obviously frustrated with the situation that hes in. Hes even lashing out fox news for the coverage they had on him ending the shutdown on Nancy Pelosis terms. Hes blaming everybody, like groucho marx. Hes after ann coulter, saying shes being hostile. Come on, this is hostile. This is the president of the united states. When youre going to war with ann coulter, youre not having a good time in politics. He thinks that this is a winning argument. That the wall is a winning argument. Fundamentally, he believes its a win. Its loss. Hires the empirical evidence. We just had a midterm election. He tried to litigate the wall in those midterm districts. He lost republican members of congress. He litigated the wall, made a referendum. They flipped to democrats. This is not a winning argument for donald trump. He just hasnt figured it out yet. Michael, read this guy because i think he looks weaker. I compared him to sonny liston, once, the guy who couldnt be beaten until he couldnt win. Went from cant lose to cant win. I think thats exactly right. Hes in this space, hes buffeted by guys like mulvaney inhouse telling him, all right, lets do this, stick to it. They go out and continue to beat that drum. What i take away from this is, again, the idea that were going to have another shutdown in three weeks, this president is prepared to take ownership of that. Hes prepared to say yes, i own this shutdown too. Because to steves point, this fight over the wall is the one corner he cannot figure out how to get out of. Short of an emergency. And so i think that either hes going to shut down the government or do the emergency piece, the next reaction in this debate. As i mentioned, the president has taken heat from his base over the wall capitulation. Hard right commentator ann coulter and fox business host lou dobbs both blasted the move. Crazy that i expect a president to keep the promise he made every day for 18 months. Right. No, its the base. Thats what happened. The base is what has rebelled here. They can take me as a standin for the base, but thats all i am, a member of the base. You have to call it as it is. This president said it was going to be conditional border security, building that wall, and he reversed himself. Thats a victory for nancy pelosi. It will be perceived as such on every Television Monitor and screen in the country. And thats reality, every Television Screen in the country, lou. Any, colter was following up on her tweet that trump was, quote, the biggest wimp ever to serve as president of the united states. In his interview with the wall street journal, trump said of coulter, i hear shes become very hostile. Maybe i didnt return her phone call or something. This is so snippy. It reminds me of foust. He made his deal with the devil, and this is the devil. Exactly right. This is the fundamental problem. This is guy, he sits in his recliner, he watches these people, listens to these people. He believes they reflect the sentiments of the electorate. If you look at an nbc poll that came out last weekend, the wall, unpopular with the American People. Donald trump, underwater now, way more underwater than he ever was. So he takes a look at this little slice of extremism and believe it represents a broader psychology of the electorate. Hes misreading the electorate. Why doesnt he just take the 25 billion the democrats offer him now and then. And say we got our first down payment. Well get the rest of it in the second term . I mean, sometimes you have to finesse these things. It was on the table, but now hes at a point where the opposition is not going to put it back on the table. Theyre not going to give him 5. 7 billion. How about nancy pelosi saying well have it next tuesday . Shell dictating terms. Which goes to my Central Point about the relationship between these two individuals. Donald trump has yet to figure out what to do with nancy. He husband a nancy problem, and he doesnt know how to deal with it. And she knows it, and every day, she turns the screw just a little bit tighter on him. And todays letter was a good example of that. And we would have had a different outcome to this shutdown had nancy pelosi not won the speakership. Can you imagine what would have happened had she not prevailed . Nancy pelosi knows how to deal with friends and enemies. Ask Kathleen Rice of your state. Even before negotiations begin on border security, some republicans are looking to the past shutdown to caution against another Government Shutdown. Just like the because the base is with trump doesnt mean the leadership on the hill is with him. Lets watch. What did this shutdown accomplish . Well, hopefully, it teaches everyone that shutdowns are not good leverage in any negotiation. I think its important to separate tactics from the policy aims here. What was actually accomplished . Well, i would say absolutely nothing. Shutdowns are never good policy ever. They are never to be used as a means to achieve any kind of goal, no matter how important that goal may seem to be. Yamiche, why does the president think he wins on the wall and senators who represent states, some of them red states, some of them not, think they lose on it . Whats the difference in the Job Description that gives you a different perspective . I think im not even sure he really believes he wins on the wall and wins on the shutdown. I think whats even more confusing is when you talk to trump voters, and i have talked to so many of them, they forgive this president if almost anything. Before he was elected, the access hollywood tape, while hes in office, his colleagues are being convicted and going to prison, and they stick with the president through porn stars, through all sorts of scandals and i think they would forgive him if he said i tried really hard and i couldnt get the wall. You know the one thing they wont forgive him for doing . Taking away their paychecks. Good theres another shutdown in three weeks and more people are going another month without work, without getting paid, trump voters will turn on this president , and the polls that pbs news hour did show his base, his actual base, working class white men, men without college degrees, evangelical women, that they started shifting, and he was losing support with that critical base of his because of the shutdown and the fact there are people who couldnt get paid. Thats a different thing than saying i tried really hard for this, but i cant actually get it. Lets ask the question that yamiche just posed. Will this president do it again . Will he say i dont like the deal they cut between the house and senate. Im shutting it all down again . Will he do it . I believe he will do it again. Hes like the guy on the titanic saying we hit the iceberg. Lets try that again. That worked out well. He believes its a win. Its not a win. But he needs to deliver that to his base. As much as he believes its a win, it is a win, i dont think he will do it again because of the things that yamiche just said and he will instead invoke an emergency action. Agreed. Is he going to go where the emergency . I think theres a lot of posturing. Hes trying to set the stage to invoke an emergency on the border. But hes going to take it to the 12th hour. Jared is warning against it. The emergency, i think hes going to go for it. I think he shoots for the moon because i have watched the guy, all this stuff starting in the 90s. This guy, every hand he gets, he shoots the moon. And that would be a national emergency. Thank you, Yamiche Alcindor with your expertise, steve israel, and michael steele. Up next, were coming to the end of one of the strangest months in trumps presidency. Tracking trumps first taste of a divided government after this break. Lobsterfest is on at red lobster. With the most lobster dishes of the year, whatll you choose . How bout lobster lovers dream . 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And more precise treatments than before. Working as hard as we can doing all that we can for everyone who walks through our doors. This is Cancer Treatment centers of america comprehensive cancer care network. And these are the specialists were proud to call our own. Treating cancer is more than our mission. Its our passion. Expert medicine works here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com. Cancer Treatment Centers of america. Appointments available now. Welcome back to hardball. President trumps capping off the start of this third year in the white house with battles on all fronts. For the man who claimed he would be doing so much winning, that has yet to be seen. The president caved on his border wall last week, ending the longest Government Shutdown in our countrys history. A shutdown he started. And during the shutdown, more Senate Republicans voted with the democrats on their plan to reopen the government than their own or his own, rather. Instead, delivering his state of the Union Address tomorrow night, trump capitulated to House Speaker Nancy Pelosis demand to postpone it to the following week, and trump watched as roger stone got hauled away in handcuffs this week. Stone is the sixth member of trumps inner circle who has been arrested by Robert Mueller. Any one of those headlines would normally be enough to stymie any president. For trump, he has to face them all at the same time. Im joined by historian jon meacham, author of the soul of america. I think now that youre down in nashville again, jon, i want you to think about the Willie Nelson song, its not supposed to be this way. And it seems to me everything is wrong. His buddies are getting arrested, put in handcuffs. The government has shut down. His number one fixer with all the dirty work under his fingernails is going to talk and squawk before two committees next week. This is awful. And whatever you think of trump, how does he deal with this life that he has chosen to screw up . Go ahead, your thoughts. So Willie Nelson meads the godfather, that was a classic cultural tour. He did choose this life. And we always ultimately pay for the you mentioned foust a minute ago. We do ultimately pay for what we do on the way up. Willy stark taught us that in all the kings men that theres always something and ultimatesly, theres always a canceled check, always a footprint outside the window. And theres a lot of canceled checks and a lot of footprints in this case. The only analogy, and you know this as well as i do, if not better, is nixon in 74 when the economy was in pretty serious shape. And watergates really closing in. Nixon could only find a couple of audiences that would really be acceptable or welcoming by the time the spring of 74 came along. He came down to the grand ole opry not far from here in march of 74, tried to do the yoyo with roy, and was here basically because he would get a warm reception, which was not the case anywhere else. My sense of where the president is is hes paying the price for having invented this as hes gone along. And to say that he goes day to day, i think is an insult to people who go day to day. I think its a minute to minute thing, and it seems to me theres no clear path to getting the presidency that is at about 35 or so approval rating, which is a danger zone, as you know, when you get in the 20s, youre really done. When youre in the mid 30s, its lethargic, and i think i have a feeling its going to begin to go down farther. Heres a tough one. Back when nixon went down, he went down not just the breakin or the coverup of the breakin, which is keep kind of hard to plain to people today, thats all he did, but the economy was so terrible in the 70s at that time, stagflation, it was awful. It wasnt getting better. We were stuck in bad times. With bill clinton, i know with a lesser offense involved with Monica Lewinsky and that thing, it seemed to me better Economic Times are working for the guy in trouble. That people dont feel miserable, therefore, they dont want to throw a guy out of office. What do you think the economy does if it stays strong, does to protect trump against removal from office . I think thats hugely important. I think thats his safety net. I have used this phrase, there are a lot hof people in the country, i know a lot of them, you do, too, who are basically 401 k trump supporters. Those numbers are going up. If you have done well in the system, you have done well under trump. The people who have not done as well are still stuck. Tats going to be an interesting dynamic to watch, but i think if the economy gets softer, i dont think this is predictions are not worth much, but its very hard to see him being able to move forward with a bad economy plus all this other stuff. The real question is, you know, theres about 30 of the country that is more or less permanently disaffected and open to being persuaded by someone like this. What happened in 2016 and 2017 and a good part of 18 is that number was up near 48 or so. Is that 12 , 13 , 14 of folks who believe in institutions and dont particularly believe in elites, who didnt want to see secretary clinton be president , and who were willing to say basically to washington, i think, if youre going to act like pro wrestlers, were going to snd you one. Are those people going to come back to a more centrist view, not idealogically, but in terms of institutional frame. As you know, president ial politics are not refereneda. Theyre choices. So everything, not everything, but almost everything depends on who the democrats put up as a choice. Im so with you. Theres a difference between free will and free choice. I once heard at a georgetown lecture. We dont get to think what the press have. We get to look at the people we have and choose among them. Thats how we get stuck with some of those characters. Up next, the field of potential 2020 candidates keeps growing. Kamala harris had 20,000 people out yesterday for the official launch of her campaign in oakland, california, and theres a loud and Immediate Response to a dark horse independent. You know what independents do. Thing about jill stein, gary johnson, ralph nader. They cause trouble. Were back after this. burke parking splat. And we covered it. Talk to farmers. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum woman this is your wakeup call. 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Ed gets copays as lowlily go to as zero dollars on Medicare Part d prescriptions. Ed gets labels clear as day. And, lily. Lily gets anything she wants. Ed knows he could just have us deliver his prescriptions. But whats the fun in that . Switch to cvs pharmacy. These are not ordinary times. And this will not be an ordinary election. But this is our america. Its up to us. Each and every one of us. So lets remember, in this fight, we have the power of the people. So lets do this. That was Kamala Harris officially launching her president ial campaign yesterday in front of a crowd that her advisers estimate, look, make your own judgment, 20,000 people. Thats according to the New York Times reporting. It was a contrast in energy to former starbucks executive chairman Howard Schultz who announced last night hes seriously considering running for president as an independent in 2020. Here he is. I am seriously thinking of running for president. I will run as a centrist independent outside of the twoparty system. Both parties are consistently not doing whats necessary on behalf of the American People and are engaged every single day in revenge politics. As the Washington Post points out, quote, almost immediately, reactions began pouring in at a furious clip, noting some on the left fumed that a schultz run would split the antitrump vote, essentially handing the incombt the election. It reenited a perennial debate, how much do third parties actually influence elections. Its a complicated question because theres no way to definitively know how a third party voter would have voted if they could only choose between a democrat and republican. However, in a key 2016 swing states of michigan, wivlg whisk, and pennsylvania, Green Party Candidate jill stein won a larger number of votes than clinton lost to trump by. So if all those stein votes or even some of them had gone to clinton, she would have won the president ial election. And catch this. In the year 2000, al gore lost florida to george w. Bush by 537 votes, by some counts, but Green Party Candidate ralph nader got more than 90,000 votes in florida, which would have swung the election to gore if at least just 538 of those thirdparty voters had voted for gore. Whats shaping up to be a crowded field for 2020, but democrats may not be the only ones facing a contested primary season. Theres buzz about a republican who may challenge trump. A republican in the primaries. Well be back with that one after this break. The military y and it really shows. With all that usaa offers why go with anybody else . We know their rates are good, we know that theyre always going to take care of us. It was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. It was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say oh we cant beat usaa were the webber family. Were the tenneys were the hayles, and were usaa members for life. 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If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission within reach. Welcome back to hardball. Its shaping up to be a busy primary season, and now it looks like donald trump could face a potential primary challenger from within the Republican Party. Marylands popular governor larry hogan has been consulting with aides and National Critics of trump on whether to per sue a white house bid. Im joined by zerlina maxwell, the director of progressive programming for sirius. And peggy noonan is a columnist with the wall street journal. I love your column. I love it. I used to tweet you after i read it or email you. What do you think about kamala. You have a good sense of horse flesh, how does it look . Kamala harris . I thought she made a good impression in her speech. The headline to me, did you see that crowd . 20,000 was the number i read in the papers, as we used to say. What a huge crowd. It was a good, strong, liberal left speech. She also, ill tell you what i see when i look at her. She enjoys this. She likes it. If you dont like it, why are you there . Also, they wear on us if they dont like it. Its good when they like it. Yeah. You know, im not going to mention the name, but snl last night referred to one to one of the other candidates, Kate Mckinnon was playing her saying voting for her would be like having a prostate exam. Its good for you, but who wants to do it . Enough said. What do you think about this, does happy matter . Yes, it matters, especially when the contrast is donald trump and american carnage which is what he talked about on the inauguration, when you contrast that with the progressive vision and a clear message about how youre going to take the country into the progressive future, talking about health care being a fundamental human right, for all the talk about how the party is moving to the left, and i think thats true, i think the country is also moving to the left on many of these important issues. I agree. Including health care. I agree. Its economically moving to the left. I suspect in terms of the social issues its moving less left. I think it will probably be moving more moderate, but economically, left. Watch pennsylvania on that score. Watch pennsylvania . On cultural issues. Let me ask you, peggy, about the Republican Party and larry hogan. He got reelected overwhelmingly in a state thats pretty blue. Yeah. In maryland. Very popular. Popular guy. He had a scare a while ago which may have helped people sympathize with him. But hes been able to put it together politically and he doesnt like trump. Wheres his future . New hampshire . You hear very lately a lot of chatter about him. I have no idea what his plans are, what his heart is. I know there are people around him urging him to go forward. I am as long as trump stays viable, i think the Republican Party stays with him. Im a little skeptical of those who would make a challenge from his right or from his left, well see. But at this point i mean when you just look at the numbers, republicans are still pretty solid behind him. In terms of the country, hes got this solid third. It seems to me immovable. He never you know, he could he could get out there and do something, the strangest, weird thing in the world and keep his third. Shoot somebody on fifth avenue, he was right about that. Let me ask you about the Republican Party. Youre progressive but they seem to be different but behave in a regimental manner. Democrats dont stick together like that, they just dont, unless nancy pelosi is calling the shots. Generally they do what they feel like doing. I would hope that democrats would stick together the way that they just did during the shutdown. I would also say that republicans tend to fall in line. They dont necessarily think about the specific policies of the republican running, but if theres an r next to that persons name, they vote for that person. Thats true for president ial campaigns thats the description of my beloved dad. They dont care who it is. He voted for everybody. He was so consistent. In fact he had kennedy running as a catholic. Dad, arent you voting for kennedy . Hes a catholic. President trump tweeted Howard Schultz doesnt have the guts to run for president , hes not the smartest person. I only hope starbucks is still paying me their rent in trump tower. Tonight schultz got heckled at a book event by a protester who said he would help elect trump if he runs. Lets watch this. Its already starting. Dont help elect trump. You egotistical billionaire. Well, you heard the heart of it. Dont help elect trump, you egotistical i dont know whats worse, egotistical or billionaire. Maybe the insulter didnt know either. This is so interesting to me. Howard schultz has a fabulous story in terms of business and what he made and its a great product, et cetera. I dont know how to read this president ial possibility that hes got look, i dont see his constituency. I dont see his whats the word for wow, everybody looks at him. Charisma, the it factor . I guess i dont see the it factor. So everybody whos smarter than i am says its money, he can spend anything. I think really . Lets talk about the cost factor. Weve seen this happen with nader, al gore wasnt president. Weve seen it with jill stein and pennsylvania. These margins are obvious. Right. And i would like to not repeat that. So in terms of Howard Schultz, run for mayor. Run a city and do a good job at that and then maybe we can talk in a few years. Right now there is way too much at stake for a vanity project like running for president. Vanity. You egotistical billionaire. When we return, one of the midwest movies of the year tells a story that needs to be told and retold. Im a bunch of wind. And just like your stomach after that strip mall sushi, well, im a bit unpredictable. Lets redecorate. Whatsyamatter tanya, i thought you loved being spontaneous . I do. And if youve got the wrong Home Insurance coverage, i might break the bank too. So get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. And if you feel, like i feel baby then come on, oh come on lets get it on applebees. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. But prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Tailored recommendations, taxefficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. Fidelity wealth management. To help you grow and protect your wealth. If old sphow will theyense helps know i worked hard . , ive gotta make stuff harder. There, thats hard. Welcome back to hardball. One of the best movies of the year is also one of the most educational. Im talking about green book about the manual sold to africanamericans back in the days before the 1964 civil rights bill which band discrimination on the basis of race in places of public accommodation, hotels, restaurants, gas stations, rest rooms, you name it. Its impossible for any white person understand what its like tell you after seeing you that your reservation has been unfortunately lost. It was to avoid the punishment of such moments that the green book was published and became well known to so Many Americans in the 1950s and 1960s. Without it you were truly on your own in an unfriendly land. Recently in seeing the film based on the green book experience, i recalled something told to me by Bobby Kennedys hardnosed operative, paul corbin. One night he told me how he had been listening to bobby speak about civil rights and called him out on how detached he sounded. What would you feel like, he challenged bobby, if you were riding around in the south and your wife needed to use the restroom. What would you feel like if you were told that the gas station restroom was for whites only . How do you feel . Thats why there was a green book. I like the movie based on this history because it tells a story that needs to be told and retold, especially the people not brought up under the burden of racial repression. White supremacy is what we americans must never forget for the simple reason its where we came from. And because of at a certain level as William Faulkner wrote, the past isnt dead. It isnt even the past. How can we be good americans if we dont remember what we did wrong. Thats hardball for now. Tonight be sure to tune in at 10 00 p. M. Senator Elizabeth Warren joins lawrence odonnell. Tonight on all in ive been fully briefed on the investigation. Rare comments on the Mueller Probe from the attorney general. The investigation is, i think, close to being completed and i hope that we can get the report from director mueller as soon as possible. Tonight, why Matt Whitaker is commenting on an active investigation. What it means for the special counsel with congresswoman maxine waters. Then, Michael Cohen agrees to appear privately before congress, as roger stone heads to court. Are you willing to cut a deal with mueller to avoid