Doing . Ill tell you what, rudy is a great guy but he just started a day ago. But he really has his heart into it. Hes working hard. Hes learning the subject matter. And hes going to be issuing a statement, too. But he is a great guy. He started yesterday. Hell get his facts straight. Hes a great guy. At joint base andrews the president was asked to clarify that. Why did you change your story on Stormy Daniels . Were not changing any sfoerpz this country is right now running so smooth and to be bringing up that kind of crap and to be bringing up witch hunts all the time, thats all you want to talk about. I will tell you this. When rudy made the statements, rudys great but rudy had just starred and he wasnt totally familiar where you know, with everything. We love rudy. Hes a special guy. What he really understands is that this is a witch hunt. Rudy guiliani who was hired on april 19th issued a statement a few hours later. He wrote, there is no campaign violation. The payment was made to resolve a personal and false allegation in order to protect the president s family. It would have been done in any event whether he was a candidate or not. My references to time were not describing my understanding of the president s knowledge but instead my understanding of these matters. Clear, huh . The mayor was trying to clean up this movement where he all but admitted that the hush money payment to daniels was made to avoid an election eve scandal. Here he goes then. Imagine if that came out on october 15th, 2016 in the middle of the last debate with hillary clinton. So to make it go away, they made this payment. Cohen didnt ask even ask. He made it go away. He did his job. The correction today caps off a twoday Television Debut of the former mayor on behalf of the president , something according to west both trump and rudy agreed to do. For more, im joined by phil rucker with the Washington Post, political analyst, annie lynn ski, with the boston globe and carol anne polizzi, a federal and white collar criminal defense attorney. Thank you all for this. Stuff still happening. I love it when things are still happening as we go to press here at night. Phil rucker, what happened was rudy blew everybodys socks off by saying after weeks of denying it that the money came from trump. He said trump directed. He said something came out of this retention fee that Michael Cohen had access to and he could pay it off month to month without having to tell the president he had gotten the money. He got in trouble by saying this was to avoid an election eve daft disaster for the candidate. He said it on fox friends yesterday morning. Today he says it had nothing to do with an election. Trump still didnt direct the money but he paid it. And also it wasnt to do with the election, but with the trump brand and his relationship with his family. Which is difficult to square because everything we know about donald trump is that hes a penny pinchers and controls all his money. Hes a micromanager of the bills for his building. When he pays the bills. So its surprising that 130,000 would just somehow leave his bank account and him not note about it or question where the money was going. Thats the argument the lawyers are making tonight. Then the other issue with the political motivation, thats to try to clean up what giuliani had said about Michael Cohen making that payment to try to help trump in the election. Hes now trying to claim it wasnt that. Caroline, when you retain an attorney, you retain somebody to handle your Legal Business so he or she is available. They have an expense like staples, paper, email, not email. Maybe envelopes, they expense that to the client. Now, were to believe that having the expense 130,000, he didnt expense. He paid it out of his own money. He swallowed it. This is not how lawyers operate. Yeah, i pick up all expenses including payoff relationships. I would never charge you. Of course, he charged trump the money. Of course, trump had to agree to pay it. This is ridiculous. Thats right, chris. I think you have to look at giulianis written Statement Today when he said my references to timing are in no way indicative of the president s knowledge. Hes trying to maintain a level of plausible deniability and excull pay the cohen for saying he was in fact repaid for that loan but also on President Trumps part, hes trying to have it both ways. Hes saying he simultaneously repaid the payment while not knowing the specs and how he did it as you mentioned was through this sort of slush fund, this 35,000 a month retainer fee that Michael Cohen could use to just indiscriminately pay anybody apparently who will be negative or damaging information on mr. Trump prior to the election. So again it, goes to the federal election law violation. Hes trying to sort of in an effort to get himself out of issues, hes sort of muddying the waters and making more issues for him. In a weird way, annie, its so weird. If trumps telling the truth which no one here believes that he pays this fixer to fix all problems and gives them a sum of money, in other words, what happens if you get in more trouble than 130,000 . Suppose theres four or five women at a time. Is this guy supposed to cover that or it comes out of the 35,000 a month. This is part of his argument. The giuliani argument is hey, look, this happens all the time this had has nothing to doing with an election. Were constantly paying people off. Theres always a women in question pounding them for money. This is ridiculous hes saying hes a sleeza. Thats the defense. I normally have to pay for his messes. Its hugely problematic. In order to prove thats true, that would mean were going to see a series of women or other situations trotted out to establish the pattern. Its not really a pattern that you want to be arguing. Lets get to the point here what a lot of people think is the second story here. Why did trump change his story this wednesday night, why did rudy get trotted out to say the president paid the money taking the heat off of mr. Cohen because at National Inquirer ran the negative piece. Theyre trying to soften up this guy. Tell meep about this. Was this an attempt to take it the heat off cohen so that cohen will not turn states evidence against the president. Potentially. I think its an attempt by giuliani to get this Campaign Finance issue off the table to establish this wasnt a Campaign Finance issue and giuliani was not successful in articulating that message very clearly. Hes all over the map. It caused a lot of agitation at the white house. Fearful of what Michael Cohen who has to save his kuester against multiple charges of bank and mail traud, campaign violations. Hes a young guy. He doesnt want to go 30 to 40 years somewhere where you maybe get to lift weights if youre lucky and doing that for donald trump rather than simply telling donald trump, you abused me, im going to have to get even. Yes, certainly by all accounts i had to believe after giuliani came out on fox friends and previously on hannity, i had to believe this was part of a larger strategy. We now no this was just a strategy between trump and giuliani unbeknownst to the rest of his legal team and Communications Team in the white house. But i had to believe it was an effort to get in front of the bad facts they knew were coming out in the wake of this raid on mike cohens home, office and hotel room. They know that there are going to be some bad things that come out there and they wanted to perhaps get ahead of it from a pr standpoint. It didnt work out. Yes, absolutely, they may be sort of giving an olive branch to Michael Cohen to expull pay the hip at least from the Campaign Finance aspect of it. Who knows what other trouble he may be in in the Southern District of new york in terms of other issues but at least on that issue, maybe its something that they could do to sort of take the heat off of him. In the hopes he wont flip. Did you see the movie city hall with al pacino . Hes a guy who dealt with the somewhat shady warks from brooklyn. I know the guys name. But the fact is they beak said he was a singer in the movie. That guy looks like a singer. In the end, theyre going to press you, you look at 30 or 40 years in jail and youre going to talk. I believe it was this network that reported today that he has been cohen has been talking to people and saying no, this isnt what happened at all. I have a different side of the story to tell. If this was intended as an olive branch to cohen and im not sure it was, i think theres an easier way to do that by having the president Say Something like cohen, a great guy, but if in this was an olive branch, its unclear it worked. Well know bigg time. Today we learned cohens thoughts on what giuliani said. Heres what he told donny deutsch. I spoke with Michael Cohen yesterday. He said giuliani doesnt know what hes talking about. He said look, there are two people that know exactly what happened. Myself and the president. Youll be hearing my side of the story. He was very frustrated what had come out yesterday. Phil, lets take this back to why it matters. We heard weeks ago the president faces more terror from this Stormy Daniels case potentially than he faces from the main line investigation by Robert Mueller. The argument being i think isnt that he had this relationship that hes embarrassed by, potentially at person would be embarrassed by it but the fact this guy has so much on him. So much has been collected by the fbi when they went into the offices of Michael Cohen that all this could be used to squeeze cohen and the president would be the one who has to pay for it. Cohens the vault for donald trump. The keeper of all these secrets, all these financial deals going back a decade. His personal attorney and fixer. He would get him out of trouble. Trump is worried what he might tell federal investigators. The other reason its so concerning for trump and the white house they dont know the full truth. With the mueller investigation, they have a good sense of what happened on the campaign and what didnt and what trump did as president to possibly obstruct justice or not. They have no idea what Michael Cohen has on trump. Thats why theyre so concerned. Annie, it could be russia which is always the vein here you want to get to. You want to get to the russia collusion issue. If you can show the president colluded with the russians to get elected president , a bunch of republicans might join a quiksz of getting the president out of office. That is a terrifying aspect. To phils point, it is unclear that sarah made it clear yesterday that nobody really did know any of the details about the Stormy Daniels situation. So the fact that there could be multiple concepts like this flowing from cohen you know, is very, very scary because they dont know what theyre dealing with. Its an unknown unknown. Caroline, can you tell us what the possibility is of squeezing Michael Cohen with all this stuff he knows and all the collateral information . Everything hes got in that bundle of stuff thats now in control of the federal investigators from the Southern District of new york . Ing what how would they squeeze somebody like that . As you said, we know this was a referral from Robert Muellers office, the special counsel. He didnt think that was in his ambit to prosecute. He referred it to the Southern District of new york. Theyre moving forward with that criminal investigation. That doesnt mean that the prosecutors and investigators in the Southern District cant share whatever information they may find in that investigation with the special counsels office and the special counsel could then use that information really as leverage. I mean, i hate to use the word threat but you know, the threat of a criminal indictment in other arenas, you know, having to do with banking fraud, wire fraud, what have you, maybe nothing to do with russia could potentially incite Michael Cohen to open his eyes and say do i want to go to jail for potentially a long period of time or do i want to provide substantial assistance. Thats what the prosecutors are looking for, substantial assistance in the bigger russia probe. I think its a very strong likelihood he would do so. Is Robert Mueller basically already walked into a candy store and he looks at all the different candies. Hes got m ms and hershey barns looking at every one and saying any one of them, Paul Manafort, papadopoulos, i dont know, roger stone who, knows, this guy Michael Cohen, all these people have stuff to tell me about the guy im trying to go after here to figure out whether he did anything wrong. Isnt it like that for him . Does he have the opportunity to pick one of these he wants to go into and say great, this looks really tasty. Ill bring him down with this one. It looks like that is muellers situation. Thats what hes looking at, the candy store. Potentially. Prosecutors got raked over the coals today in the manafort case. Basically the judge came down very hard on them saying the only reason they were prosecuting manafort for the other crimes was exactly as you stated, chris. But that says in the mandate anything that arises in this case they can prosecute. I agree with you. But the fact issing. Any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. That judge that 78yearold judge who was a reagan appointment ought to read the mandate before he rules. I think hes out to lunch. I agree with you. I think hes going to learn more. Im tough on the guy i dont know. When he didnt read the mandate language, its pretty wide. Once its unredacted, well see. By the way, i want hear from all the Candy Companies for my product placement. Thank you, phil, annie, and carolyn. Trump says he wants to sit down with Robert Mueller but the truth is, he knows an interview with mueller would open himself to imnew larl peril beyond belief. He wants to make it look like hes willing to talk but never sit anywhere near. Let me at him and everybody grabs him. Let me at him. Plus, the man who would oversee the impeachment in the house, jerry nadler of new york joins us tonight. I want to know what his definition of impeachable crime is. What would it take for congress to begin did the impeachment process against this president. The trump and rudy show. Chief of staff john kellys relegated to the back seat. With the story changing almost daily, who knows where this car is heading. Let me finish tonight with trump watch. He wont like there. He hasnt lately. This is hardball where the action is. Manner. I dont know how to say this. Its ok doc. Give it to me straight. No you dont understand. I dont know how to say this. Im just a tv doctor. They also know you should get your annual checkup. It could save your life. And now you can page a tv doctor to set up a checkup reminder. Call 1833pagedoc. Cigna. Together, all the way. Im the only bed that actually senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. Does your bed do that . Im the new sleep number 360 smart bed. Lets meet at a sleep number store. Searching for answers may feel overwhelming. So start your search with our teams of specialists at Cancer Treatment centers of america. The evolution of cancer care is here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com experts amid all the other headlines today, President Trump made news on north korea. Heres trump earlier today. Were having very substantive talks with north korea. And a lot of things have already happened with respect to the hostages and i think youre going to see very good things. As i said yesterday, stay tuned. I think youre going to be seeing very, very good things. And also, the trip is being scheduled. We now have a date. And we have a location. Well be announcing it soon. We have a date and a location. In addition to teasing a date and location, President Trump also said the summit would be happening very soon. President trump announced late today he will welcome the south korean president to the white house later this month prior to his meeting with kim jongun. Apparently its after this month. Well be right back. At some point, we are going to be able to beat als. Because life is amazing. So i am hoping for a cure. I want this, to uh, to be a reality. Um, yeah. With tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. New fixodent ultramax hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. So now you can eat tough food without worry. Fixodent and forget it. Alright, i brought in high protein to help get us moving. And help you feel more strength and energy in just two weeks ill take that. Yeeeeeah ensure high protein. With 16 grams of protein and 4 grams of sugar. Ensure. Always be you. We have all these investigators. Theyre democrats. In all fairness, bob mueller worked for obama for eight years. I would love to speak. I would love to. Nobody wants to speak more than me. In fact, against my lawyers because most lawyers they never speak on anything. Were going to be treated fairly because everybody sees it now. It is a pure witch hunt. If i thought it was fair, i would override my lawyer. I love the jess tours override my lawyers. That was donald trump today suggesting Robert Muellers team wouldnt treat him fairly and he claimed all investigators are democrats neglected to mention that mueller was a registered republican and appointed by george w. Bush, part of an aggressive new strategy to discredit mueller. According to politico, trump and his team see the challenges more political than legal. Theyre banking that the lead russian investigator will follow Longstanding Justice Department practice that a sitting president cant be indicted and the only real threat to trumps survival as president is impeachment. Trumps plan is to challenge mueller in the arena he knows best, not the courtroom but the media where the Public Campaign aimed at the special counsels credibility especially among Republican Voters and gop members of congress. That sounds very smart. Im joined by contributor jennifer ruben. Former assistant attorney kim whaley. Thank you both for joining us. You should just surmise that trump is not going to sit around and outlawyer anybody. Hes going to say which side are you on, my side or these geeks trying to bring me down. Thats what hes up to. Listen, impeachment is a political process. So theres some sense to that. The problem is twofold. First of all, eventually he has to sit down and talk to mueller. He can do it the easy way and sit down for a voluntary interview or the hard way. Or else what . Gets a subpoena. Suppose he says im going to ignore the subpoena. At that point, the political dynamic shifts. If at the refuses to respond to a subpoena. He can litigate. If a court orders him to sef. You think the Supreme Court 54 with Anthony Kennedy joining the. I think it will be bigger than that. I do not think john roberts lost let him get away with that. This is not going to be a party vote as it were. Is that because of the precedent where bill clinton had to testify. Yes. Nismon they do this. With the documents. Exactly. Theyre going to assert the entire strength of the court. And listen, the judiciary is under attack by this president. They have an institutional responsibility and an institutional ethic to defend that. Gorsuch is not going to vote, is he . Who knows. They have at least six votes. You agree. I think gorsuch would vote. You think in the end he has to testify. I think in the end there is going to be a subpoena. The question is whether he can negotiate testifying wlout being oath. Then he would avoid perjury. I dont think mule worry go for that. Were talking subpoena and maybe were not going to comply, then we have a court order to compel. We have a contempt of decision by a court if he refuses. Then this president who believes article 2 authority is somehow superior to the other branch of government saying its a fake court. Im not going to comply with that. This is fascinating. This is a real constitutional crisis. The court doesnt have the an army. Trump has an army. He says im staying here and some judge is going to come over and grab him . How is this enforced . Susan mcdougal, the Marshall Service goes and takes the person and puts them in custody. President trumps in charge of the service. Then we have people. Youre with me on this. If hes willing to push this all the way and say my people will back me. If he does believe theyll try to i dont know. I dont think theyre going conviction is a long way off. It takes 67 u. S. Senators. I think if were down to him defying a court order and ordering the marls off the white house lawn, at that point were in impeachment territory. Youre so establishment. I know. President trump tried to discredit investigators today call them angry democrats. This is what hes up to. Lets watch. I want to talk to the people in charge, if they can problem that its a fair situation. The problem we have is that you have 13 people, theyre all democrats. And theyre real democrats. Theyre angry democrats. And thats not a fair situation. There we saw what was set up in this piece. This segment. Hes not talking to jurors. Hes talking to the American People and hes got 40 some who stick with him through access hollywood and every stumble thats come along. He says hes prolife. Hes with us on a couple issues and antiestablishment, therefore, no matter what this guy does, were with him. How many people do you think are with him . I think about 30, 35 . The problem is that were going to get a new congress. Were going to get a new senate i think. Eventually he cant run out the clock anymore. How Many Republican senators will join the roughly 50 dras. Lets say 50. That takes another 17. Depends what he does. Can you get 17 republicans to vote to throw this guy out of office in any circumstance. If he is refusing to respond to a subpoena that the Supreme Court. Have you watched the toadies in the senate . Have you watched these people . Simon says, they do everything he wants. Theyre now for. Protectionism, they were the party of free trade before trump. Theyre now for big deficits. They ran against deficits for 100 years. Whatever trump says they do. Im a constitutional law professor. Weve got two of the three branches broken right now. A legislative branch not doing their job to oversee is the executive branch. With the exception of the justice department. They do do anything except what he tells them to do. Its checks and balances. This is whats getting distorted here and this is something trump is misleading the american public, not just the 30 , anyone else. If he believes hes turned mueller into a skunk before the American People like hes trying to do comey, hes got rudy. Turned them into skunks into awful people that smell and are awful, we dont like these beings. If he keeps doing that, he may believe he can get away it. Thats the key thing that he believes it. He can challenge the authority of the Supreme Court. Thats why if it does get to the court, it is so important for the conservative justices to put their foot down. Its at that point, if you have a Supreme Court. Youre being normative using the word should here. They should. Do i think that they get some of those conservative justices . Yes. Theyll get gorsuch. I think theyll get alito, maybe not thomas or not everybody. I think theyll get a very strong majority. At that point, i do not think it is sustainable. We do have elections. This will get resolved one way or another. 2020 comes along. If hes in the posture hes keeping sheriffs. Did you think hillary would win the election. I did. Everybody did. Thats how smart you are. Absolutely. Absolutely. We all think here and i should she would win, too. We all think in the deep state may not be political reality that trumps looking at. He may have to do it. The big difference between him andnismon, you can hate him all the stuff. But i got to tell you something, did he have a sense of shame. This guy has none. Jennifer thank you, kim wehle. Thank you. Up next, hes the man who would oversee impeachment proceedings in the house. Congressman jerry nadler of new york. Whats his idea of an impeachable as soon as and whats his standard for holding it hearings which will decide the issue . Well ask him next live. This is hardball where the action is. I want some more of it. I try so hard, i cant rise above it dont know what it is bout that little gals lovin. But i like it, i love it, i want some more of it we know you love it, so get more of it, with applebees new bigger bolder grill combos. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. I was wondering if an electric toothbrush really cleans better than a manual. And my hygienist says it does but theyre not all the same. Who knew . I had no idea. So she said, look for one thats shaped like a dental tool with a round brush head. Go pro with oralb. Oralbs rounded brush head surrounds each tooth to gently remove more plaque, and oralb is the First Electric toothbrush brand accepted by the American Dental Association for its effectiveness and safety. My mouth feels so clean. Ill only use an oralb. Oralb. 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If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. Entyvio. Relief and remission within reach. You might or joints. Hing for your heart. But do you take something for your brain. With an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brainhealth supplement in drug stores nationwide. Prevagen. The name to remember. The people said, but he hasnt done anything wrong. Oh, that doesnt matter. We will impeach the president. So i dont think were going to have a lot of happy people if that happens. I think its going to be a little bit tough. We got to win the house. And you know what . Were going to win anyway. Welcome back to hardball. That was President Trump last week telling his supporters that if democrats take over the house theyll try to impeach him. Its part of a larger strategy as i mentioned earlier to make the debate over the russia probe political. Not legal. As steve bannon told ho lit co, this is political. At some point in time, the American People are going to weigh in on this. The Legal Process is going to attune itself to the political process. They are inextricably linked. What would need to happen for politicians to consider impeachment . Im joined by jerry nadler of new york who represents the 10th district of new york including the westside of manhattan and parts of brooklyn. Hes the top democrat in the panel that would potentially initiate impeachment proceedings against donald trump. Thank you for coming on. I was thinking about which situation youre facing of the great peter rodino in 1974 who handled it masterfully. People never had a higher opinion in our lives of the congress than they were in the way the house handled the question of Richard Nixons impeachment. Tell me your general thoughts whats going on now, the way President Trump is talking about how the democrats are out to impeach him. I think first of all, the president is making that up out of whole cloth as he makes up so many other things out of cholecloth. Whats going on now is that the congress is failing in its duty. We have a system of separation of powers and the congress is supposed to keep the executive in check and vice versa. And the congress is not keeping the executive in economic. We are not exercising our checks and balances power. Were not holding the administration accountable. We are not Holding Hearings going into all the things theyre doing. That we ought to be doing. We ought to be holding those hearings and holding the administration accountable. And if im the chairman of the judiciary committee, which is to say if the democrats should win the house in january, thats what we will do, well start Holding Hearings on the behavior of the administration, on what theyre doing, on their adherence to law. On what if any legal changes we should make to promote the rule of law. Well see where it goes from there. Do you think that the House Republicans have been doing anything liking that . Ive looked at the case of nunes, chairman of intelligence. They look to be rubber stamps for anything the president wants to say or do on the issue of this whole russian probe. No, the republicans in the house have been extreme, by and large have been supremely irresponsible. Nunes has been a complete lackey for the white house. And more to the point, theyve refused to hold any hearings. Instead they have participated in trashing the special counsel and trying to distract attention from whats going on. And trying to come up with a phony nonsense. One interesting thing about the special counsel has been the president and republicans some of them can say whatever they want, its terrible. Hes doing a terrible job. First of all, hes a republican. His superior is republican. More to the point, we dont really know what theyre doing. There have been no leaks. All we know is that certain number of people have indicted, certain pleaded guilty and we know court filings. Well find out how good or bad a job theyre doing when they bring prosecutions, when he issues a report presumably later this year or next year. What is the relationship between a report that comes out, on obstruction of justice done piece mee by mueller. Lets say by the summer. He comes out with a report that talks about the president s obstruction of justice in this case. What would what does that say to the house . Is there a natural order order of things where the house takes up that report, holds hearings on it or what . The statute under which ken starr operated mandated that the special prosecutor issue a report to congress. The statute under which mueller operates mandates he issue a report to the Deputy Attorney general rod rosenstein. Its possible he wont release that report to congress or the American People. I think it should be released and we would make sure, we would have the tools to make sure it would be. Then wed have to see what was in it and presumably we would hold hearings and call witnesses to see how reliable that report was. How strong it was. And what else we should know before we decided what actions if any to take. Youre a constitutional lawyer as well as an elected official. What do you make of this fight that may be coming more immediately where the president may decide he will not accept a Court Decision that he has to testify to mueller . What would happen . He can appeal any such Court Decision. If ultimately at the end of the appeals he is instructed to testify, he must do so. He cannot simply defy the court. Thats what Richard Nixon at the end of the day, Richard Nixon decided will he to obey the court order. The president must obey the court order. Or else. Or else. What happens . Weve never been in that situation. Nixon was an institutionist. We were in that situation. Nixon did what he was told to do. We were in that situation i believe with Andrew Jackson who said John Marshall had made his decision. Let hip enforce it. Its a long time ago. In todays world, if a president refused to obey a court order, then we would have to consider impeachment. Youve got a challenge facing you. I would hope and trust it would never come to that even with this president. It may come to it. Thank you so much jerry nadler from the westside of new york and part after brooklyn, Ranking Member of the house judiciary committee. Up next, a hardball roundtable is here to talk about the trump and rudy show. Theyre taking turns at the wheel and everyone else including the white house staff is just along for ride. Look at these two guys. Theyre in cahoots. Youre watching hardball. driver so, we took your shortcut, which was a bad idea. [cougar growling] passenger what are you doing . driver i cant believe that worked. I dropped the keys. burke and we covered it. Talk to farmers, we know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum. Nausea, heartburn, when indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea heres pepto bismol ah. Nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea. I needthats whenvice foi remembered that my exex exboyfriend actually went to law school, so i called him. He didnt call me back if your exex exboyfriend isnt a lawyer, call legalzoom and well connect you with an attorney. Legalzoom. Where life meets legal. Welcome back to hardball. President trump and Rudy Guiliani have hatched a plan to reveal that trump reimbursed his personal fixer Michael Cohen for that hush money payment. But they certainly left the white house staff out of the loop. The daily beast reports giulianis interview with sean han sit wednesday night sent white house staff scrambling. Was he supposed to do that one blind sided white house official said. And adds one aide bluntly assessed rudy pulls a trump denoting an extremely public undercutting of official strategy and messaging. This disconnect was evident yesterday as Sarah Huckabee sanders struggled to field reporter questions. When did you specifically know that the president repaid mr. Cohen for the 130,000 . You personally . The first awareness i had was during the interview last night. How are the American People to trust or believe what is said here or what is said by the president . We give the very best information that we have at the time. Why cant you just answer yes or no whether you were in the dark. I think its a fairly simple. Its a fairly simple answer ive given you several times now. I give you the best information i have and im going to continue to do that every single day. According to the Washington Post rile rudy had a strategy, the white House Counsel had no idea, neither the chief of staff nor the white house lawyer overseeing the handling of the russia investigation. The post adds they watched agog as giuliani freestyled about the president s legal troubles and unveiled an explosive new fact. Giulianis correction today underscores how the ever changing narrative could create even bigger problems for the prez, the president. Thats next with the hardball roundtable. [ drum roll ]. Emily lapier from ames, iowa. This is emilys third nomination and first win. Um. So, just. Wow um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. And of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts no, i have to say it for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. Safe driving come fly with me, lets fly, lets fly away. Y deserve. Back to hardball. President trump said Rudy Guiliani didnt have the facts straight when the he revealed trump repaid his personal attorney for that payment to Stormy Daniels. Giuliani now says it was it was to resolve a personal allegation not to avoid an election eve scandal. The New York Times peter baker writes this is the latest example of a president losing control of his narrative write the past few days have offered a series of revelations that conflicted with the version of events mr. Trump and his associates had previously provided. He adds the shifting statements illustrated why some of the president s lawyers have urned him not to submit to the an interview by robert muler. Lets bring in the roundtable. Arab ca warner from the Washington Post, adolpho franco, rnc surrogate. And Jason Johnson is a politics editoren is the editor at the root. Com and political contributor. Adolph foe for the defense what do you make of this rudy thing. Start with me. Youre fun. Youre in the barrel again tonight. What is this about. Are they roughing their way to the truth here . I think the president is still denying two key factors. He didnt order the payment of the hush money for the woman he was involved with, and two it had nothing to do with an election. He claims both right now. A couple things. First of all, it had nothing to do with the election. No, it doesnt matter. Why did he say it. Ill tell you why. I think Rudy Guiliani got this part of it right. This is a person who has been looking out for the president. I dont know when mrs. Dans most people know her as Stormy Daniels was pressing the president for payment supposedly on this agreement. It could have been. Ten days before the election. He wasnt formally part of the campaign. On top of this all of this, very quickly, the wall street journal when you read a piece by bradley smith, the former chairman of the federal elections commission, he says even if this payment is made, theres not an fec violation on there. Why did they throw edwards before the court on that issue. It was a completely different situation that was not it was not those were funds implicated during the campaign. Why . Hush up an affair. There is nothing. Its exactly the same thing. It was not the same thing in any shape way or form. This is a person who are had something to doing with 10, 12 years ago who has zero credibility. Really . You think she made it up. She signed something she said that she never had an affair. Do you think she made it up. I dont know whether she made it up or not. You get rid of these people as nuisances. I like the former friend of trump that said everybody in america believes he had the relationship, everybody in the world believes he made the payment and ordered the payment because nobody thats a lawyer is allowed to write checks for 130,000 without somebody saying you better do it. Whatever giuliani was attempting to do wednesday night which was interpreted giving him too much credit as perhaps he was trying to get ahead of some facts that would come out anyway how from Michael Cohen. Would you go on naigs National Television after dinner . I worked in the house where these guys all got in trouble. You know what im saying. Wine is served in the house dining room. They go on and have to go back and take the words down. Dont go to dinner first if youre going on National Television. Theres no way, theres no way that anyone doesnt believe that this had to do with campaigns. Rudy now that. Thats why he said it. When youre running for office is, i dont care if its local school board, your husband, wife, kids, neighbors, everybody is involved in the campaign. You cant say the that cohen had nothing to do with the campaign. Back to what im curious about. Why they do this as a twosome . How come they didnt share this with kelly, the new lawyer emmetted into. Trump prizes personal loyalty and we know that he john kelly is not on his good side lately. We dont know what kind of relationship he has with these other lawyers. Giuliani, i guess they arent very close, seems to be someone he feels he can trust although the process of throwing him under the bus seemed to somewhat begin today when he said hes been on the job a day. Hes still learning. Rudy is loving the spotlight. Why would you bring in, im a lawyer. I wouldnt bring in the nonlawyers into the legal strategy and discussions. Hes a lawyer. John kellys role, im talking about john kellys role. We were talking about stovepiping earlier. The information and the discussion and the strategy. Im going to get adolpho to agree with me. I think he wanted a street fight. Rudy is good at a street fight. Two guys from the boroughs, queens or whatever, they went in with a certain attitude towards it the establishment and the New York Times. Lets have a fight. Rudy is pugnacious and reflects the attitude trump wants to have. Giuliani can set a land speed for how quickly they backtrack whenever they say thing trump doesnt like. Whether or not threw talked about it, whether he had his facts wrong, he knows giuliani is going to remain loyal to him and that jew will do whatever it is trump wants him to do even if he changes his mind unlike john kelly. This is nice washington talk on a friday night. I thought this was about the russian interference in the election. This is why this panel, this is why donald trump will win reelection. This is why donald trump will be fine after the midterms. Im dead serious. Judge ellis got it right with all due respect. Unfettered unfettered authority. You used to do this to me all time. Jesse jackson, i know what youre pulling rights now. Youre knocking down the fourth wall. Were talking particulars here. Talk about the general issue. They say lets talk to particulars. Youre trying to change the topic. I know what youre up to. I pull you down. Its torture down there. Up next, these three will tell me something i dont know. Youre watching hardball. Even when i travel. For leisure. So i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle without starting any conversations or paying any upcharges. What can i say . Control suits me. Go national. Go like a pro. Ayep, and my teeth are yellow. . Time for whitestrips. Crest glamorous White Whitestrips are the only adaaccepted whitening strips proven to be safe and effective. And they whiten 25x better than a leading whitening toothpaste. Crest. Healthy, beautiful smiles for life. With dell small businessout your Technology Advisors you get the oneonone partnership you need to grow your business. The dell vostro 15 laptop. Contact a dell advisor today. Of back with the hardball roundtable. Erica, tell me something i dont know. And chris, remember the 1. 3 trillion omnibus spending bill that the president almost vetoed before he signed it in march, then he was going to ask congress to cut 30 billion to 40 billion from it . Theyll skew money from different programs and Congress Still might not go for that. Thats because the economy is booming. I knew tilled do this. Whats the Unemployment Rate. The Unemployment Rate is the lowest in 47 years. What is it. 4. 1 . 3. 9. No it, maybe its even better news. Let me tell you quickly. What was that . Let me tell you what the biggest, the best news weve gotten. Let me hear it. This is news. Nancy pelosi announcing that she is going to run for leadership. No, wait. We just. The next speaker. Shes the next speaker. We remember wendy davis became famous for doing a long filibuster and ended up losing. Margie bright matthews africanamerican senator from South Carolina led a long filibuster in suit carolina killing an abortion bill in a red, red state that got sent back to the committee. Huge victory for democrats. Erica, jason, adolpho trank co, well be right back. You wouldnt accept an incomplete job from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. Trump watch thursday, may 4th, 201. We end this week with this cacophony from the white house, voices correcting voices who directed that 130,000 hush money payment to Stormy Daniels. Was it trumps filmer Michael Cohen who fixed the problem . Or did he get the okay from trump . Did they pay the money to keep her quiet so he could win the election or because trump was quite understandably concerned about his marriage and protecting his brand . Trump wants to us believe his fixer, Michael Cohen, made the decision on his own to pay off Stormy Daniels to fix the problem on his own that cohen didnt pay the money to keep her from storming the tv networks and newspapers with her story the week before the election and cohen made that payment to protect it the trump marriage and trump brand. In any case, the purpose of all there is to protect trump from having to admit he ordered the hush money. This is what trump wants to us believe had his fixer fixed the problem as a business expense. He never okayed it himself. It had nothing to do with his Campaign Even though this all happened within days of the election. Got it . Thats hardball for now. Thanks for being with us. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in. He started yesterday. Hell get his facts straight. The trump and rudy show continues. Were not changing any stories. Tonight as the president and his new attorney attempt to get on the same page. Excuse me, you take a look what i said. How Rudy Guiliani keeps making things worse. We love rudy. Hes a special guy. Then why the president was praising Paul Manafort on stage today. There for a short while but hes a good person. What happened when the man who said he would get tough on the nra spoke at their conventiont