National security advisor over that russian matter. So now a fullblown investigation, inquiry looms over the political and governmental horizon with witnesses called, subpoenas issued, documents gathered from the fbi and presumably from the Trump White House itself. The person overseeing this giant investigation to come will be the newly selected special counsel, former fbi director Robert Mueller. And yesterday as i said, the New York Times was first to report former fbi director james comey revealed in memos that the president himself tried to stop the fbis investigation into his National Security adviser and, as part of that, into him. That may have been the tipping point. Donald trump may seek to portray this as yet another expect of how hes been pillar ied by the establishment, but now that the justice has named a special counsel to investigate his russian connections, the argument that its the establishment picking on him might be a very hard argument to sell. Senator richard blumenthal. Senator, whats impressive about this announcement is it comes from the Justice Department, and were told they did it on their own, that Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney general, made this decision to call a special counsel and then notified the White House Counsels Office what was going on. Is that how you see it . There are certainly reliable reports that the white house was given very little, if any, notice, which is welcome because this decision should be made by the department of justice and by the Deputy Attorney general as i have been urging for months, in fact since february, for him to do. I voted against his nomination because he refused to commit that he would appoint a special prosecutor. This choice is profoundly significant and serious. Bob mueller has the experience and expertise, the guts and backbone to assure the independence of this investigation and to stand up to political pressure if necessary. Now he has to be assured of the resources as well as the mandate, which should be unlimited in scope. What i understand the mandate to be, and check me on this, senator, is that the mandate includes going after the russians role as well as the americans role such as it was, in other words to go beyond these grand juries apparently meeting in virginia, going beyond what we know about michael flynn, the National Security adviser under trump having met with the Russian Ambassador, going into what role russia played in the whole campaign of 2016, then going into any americans around trump did the same. This is really an overwhelming task, isnt it . It is a very, very wideranging and significant challenge for any investigator, which is why he needs the resources. But bob mueller is someone who has headed the fbi. Hes also been a prosecutor. He knows what the challenge is, and he should insist on the resources. But also congress should be insistent also that he be given the resources, and thats why the mandate has to be unconditional and unlimited to pursue russian interference in our election, possible trump ties to that interference, and also obstruction of justice if it occurred. And i think that the role of the press here should not be minimized. I think one of the tipping points was the disclosure about the comey memo that indicated donald trump tried to end this investigation and bring a premature close to it in a way that may constitute obstruction of justice. I agree with you completely. Thank you for your discernment. Im joined now by the New York Times reporter who broke that story, michael schmidt. He broke yesterdays story that comey had a memo for himself in his file that said the president of the United States tried to get him to quash the investigation into michael flynn. What do you think . Michael, is your reporting going to be this is what tipped the scale here . Ive got Gene Robinson and adam entus. Was it your story that cracked this open for the special prosecutor to be named by Rod Rosenstein, the Deputy Attorney general . Well, look, this is something that the Justice Department has resisted for a long time, and it does come a day after our story. But i think whats more interesting here is that if donald trump was really trying to move russia off and trying to kill the investigation in the span of a week, he now has a special prosecutor and the firing of comey. Its obviously a very Troubling Development for the white house because it will now hang over everything that they do. The fbi investigation has, but this is even more significant. And bob mueller is a man thats respected by both parties, that isnt afraid, you know, to really go after things, and it really sets up a showdown that i dont think this white house can at all be excited about. Do you know whether comey has possession of those memos, of the one important memo where trump asked him to drop the investigation of flynn . Does he have them in his physical possession, those memos . I dont know whether comey has access to what is in the fbi systems. I know that the memos were logged in the fbi system in the classified and unclassified system, and they were distributed amongst his closest advisers. You know, those are people that comey trusted very closely at the bureau. They actually decided they would keep the news i mean the actual thing that trump had tried to influence the investigation quiet because they didnt want it to influence the investigators. So i have very little doubt that those documents are still at the fbi. And theres no way that trump can grab them . Well, i mean, you know, who knows . But these people that work for comey are very loyal to him. Theyre obviously very disappointed with what happened to him, how he was fired and the fashion that he was fired. My guess is that they would protect that. You know, my guess is that, you know, comey has at the very least a very good recollection of what was in these memos. Gene, this is an amazing time because the stock market is tumbling, and its because the republicans are worried and wealthy people are worried that their tax cut isnt coming because this is screwing up everything in congress. Maybe this will clean the table for them. What were seeing is a very business friendly trump agenda now seems quite distant. Health care didnt get through. The fax cuts, which atax cuts a that. Its hard to understand how this city gets from here to there. We give it to the independent counsel. The special counsel takes all the crap off the table, lets congress do what they want to do, cut taxes for rich people and move on. That would be what they want. Another way of looking at it is that all of washington is going to be preoccupied and that the administration, at least the white house is going to have this dominate their every another story breaking tonight. Its quite a juicy one if you like politics. Adam, you reported today in the Washington Post that during a conversation among Republican Leaders back in june of 2016, before the election, House Majority leader Kevin Mccarthy made what appears to be or could be a joke about Donald Trumps ties to russia. He said, quote, theres two people i think putin pays. Putin pays. Rohrabacher, thats the congressman from california, and trump. Congressman rohrabacher has been a vocal defender of putin. Quote, this entire yearold exchange was clearly an attempt at humor. And we just got a commend from mccarthy himself. Heres the reaction. If you listened to, everybody laughed, so you know its a joke. Thats all there is to it. No one believes it to be true. Do you still have confidence in the president . 100 . Adam, is it a joke . Does it sound like a joke when you listen to the recording . Did people react to it like b. S, kibi kibitzing, throwing this stuff around . Would a person listening to this tape, hear a person actually accuse of being on the payroll of moscow . If you heard the tape, what you would hear is a very serious conversation taking place in which basically everybody is denouncing russias role in meddling in politics in europe. And then mccarthy brings the conversation home and points out that the day before, there was news that the dnc was hacked by the russians. And, you know, he then theres a brief laughter that he puts out there when he describes how they stole the oppo research, the Opposition Research on trump. And then ryan asks him to give it to whom . And thats when he delivers that line. Now, i listened to it very carefully, and he says it very seriously. Theres a brief laugh from some in the room, and then basically he you know, and then you basically have him say swear to god after that statement. Okay. Gene, your thoughts about this. Adam, what was the reaction when you asked about this tape from speaker ryan, from Kevin Mccarthy during your reporting . Yeah, well we first went to them. We said we wanted to seek your comment about this these statements that were made. We didnt tell them that we had listened to a tape. They said that it was 100 untrue. There was no conversation like this. Then we told them that we were going to be that there was a transcript, and they told us that the transcript was made up. And then we told them that we actually we were going to be citing an audio of this, and thats when they basically said that it was intended as a joke. So they basically changed the story over the course of the last 48 hours before we published the story. Adam, what do you excuse me. Im sorry. I was just going to comment that they obviously had a flash of memory and realized, oh, yeah, that conversation. So whats your read on it, adam . That this was a serious accusation. See, the way you set up the transaction, the russians are if nothing else transactional. Why would they pay trump to help trump . That doesnt make any sense. The guy youre helping is the beneficiary. Why would you pay him, of any kind of muck etty muck going on behind the scene, any kind of hacking or fake news operation, r. T. Operation . Why would you pay trump . I think what hes trying to say, whether he means it literally or not, is hes basically saying that basically trump is beholden to putin. Thats what hes trying to get across. And when ryan hears that statement and the swear to god, thats when ryan shuts it down, and he basically tells everybody no leaks. Then theres a series of statements that culminates with whats said in the family stays in the family. And, you know, the nature of the conversation was very serious until that moment when mccarthy takes it in this direction. Thanks, adam. Were going to follow up on this. Everybody is, i think. Im sure that Kevin Mccarthy is going to say it was a joke, and everything is a joke if its not important. Lets get the reaction from the white house. We dont have the white house. Lets go back to michael schmidt. Michael, this story gets back to an independent counsel is going to do what youre doing. A special counsel to try to get to the truth. Where is this story going . I mean, look, this is you know, mueller is going to get a certain amount of resources here. Hes going to be able to ask for a certain number of bodies, agents, prosecutors that can do this. And theyre going to go out, and theyre really going to follow the evidence. And i think probably the biggest thing for the public or for congress is theyll have confidence in what mueller is dog. There wont be a question of whether Rod Rosenstein is, you know, looking at the investigation or if the white house is meddling in it. I think what really changed here is that trump came into the equation more yesterday. The idea that trump tried to influence the investigation sort of changed things. Up until this point, its largely been about mr. Trumps associates. Did carter page do this . Did Paul Manafort do that . And that kind of stuff. But what changed here is the president sort of became part of the story and perhaps part of the investigation. Yeah, i think those two points, first of all, gene, attempting to quash the investigation by calling the guy aside in a way that would allow a oneonone conversation which he thought was going to be intimately confidential and turns out to be noted by a professional policeman basically, comey, and then to fire the guy when he didnt play ball. It doesnt take perry mason to figure this baby out. And to fess up to lester holt. Fess up and say thats why i did it. One observation. Youve got these two big stories breaking. The huge story about Robert Mueller and adams great reporting on the tape. But these are very different sides of the same questions about the relationship between President Trump, perhaps his businesses, perhaps russian money. Yeah. Connected with putin. Its all very complicated, very tangled, very, you know, Companies Within Companies on top of companies. The fbi is one of the few organizations that is capable of unraveling all of this, and under tough, determined leadership as Robert Mueller is likely to provide, they can get to the bottom of it. Maybe theres nothing there, but if theres something there, they can get to it. It will be interesting to see what happens to their budget. Anyway, thank you. Lets get reaction from the white house now to the big story that a special counsel has been named in the investigation into trump and russia. Nbcs Peter Alexander is at the white house for us today. Peter, this is a tough one for them. They can blame the liberal press, the progressives, the bad guys. They can blame the establishment. But how do you blame your own Justice Department person who you just said was a great man, Rod Rosenstein, for picking another great, well respected person, Robert Mueller, the former head of the fbi . This thing has the crackle of a good Civil Service coming at the president , which ive been talking about. Chris, youre exactly right. You know, it was barely a week ago that this white house was putting out all sorts of talking points about what a good guy Rod Rosenstein was. Now just a couple weeks into this job approved by the senate by a margin of 946, and now after the firing of james comey, they said this was because the president was clearly follows the recommendations of Rod Rosenstein, and basically he had perfect credentials to be doing this, so now its going to be tough to attack him. We have not heard anything from this white house yet in response to this naming of a special counsel. Just 48 hours, we had heard from the White House PressSecretary Sean Spicer say, frankly, theres no need for a special prosecutor, and its been no secret to anybody paying close attention to the president s comments about this russia investigation on twitter within the last week or so, basically calling it a taxpayerfunded charade and saying the whole thing was a hoax. Our teams have been staked out sean spicers office. Inside there have been multiple individuals from this white house, kellyanne conway, the Vice President , as i understand it, the Homeland Security advisers, all of who have come and gone with no comment so far. As soon as we get that, were going to pass it on to you. Peter, this is not a very good bon voyage president for the president. Hes going to saudi arabia, israel, the vatican and italy. Every one of those newspapers in those countries are going to be preceding him with the news that hes got a special counsel on his tail now, that hes been assigned a criminal tail, someone to catch him in the act of a crime. Thats what you name a special counsel for, to look for criminali criminality, and he has to explain to his hosts. Last week after all the news about the firing of james comey, the conversation with lester holt where he made it clear that the russia investigation played a role in his decisionmaking process, there was great hope from this white house that when this week began, they would be able to ultimately turn the page and finally focus on what would be taking place beginning friday when the president heads overseas. But then literally in each of the last three nights at roughly the same time, a bombshell has broken. First the details being reported by the Washington Post about the highly classified information being shared by President Trump in that meeting with the two top russian officials. The next day the details about the memos, in particular, one that spoke about what james comey said or was told by donald trump in that Oval Office Meeting that twot had in february. Then tonight the announcing of a special counsel. This is already a deflated, fatigued, exhausted white house that now heads off on whats going to be one of its most high stakes trips so far. You add to that the story that just came from the Republican Leadership of the Congress Last year where you have Kevin Mccarthy, the number two republican up there on the hill talking about the president being on the take from russia. And now hes saying it was a joke, but it was recorded as a statement, which was then hushed up by paul ryan, the speaker. This is look, there he is. This is not hes going to have to do a lot of flaking to get that one out of the air. Thats on tape. The white house yet to respond to that one also. It was the Speaker Paul Ryan as well as the majority leader, Kevin Mccarthy, their aides dismissed this story until they were told there was a recording and then they changed their response to it. Kevin mccarthys name had been floated privately as a potential who could come tiny this white house if there were to be a shakeup at some point. But with this new headline that surrounds him, that looks like that would be out of the question, at least anytime soon. Not exactly a safe harbor over there, is it . Thank you so much, Peter Alexander. Anyway, to hear the president tell it, hes the victim of mistreatment at a historic level by the press and other critics. In his commencement address to the Coast Guard Academy in connecticut, the president offered this advice to graduates based on his personal recent experience. Lets watch. Over the course of your life, you will find that things are not always fair. You will find that things happen to you that you do not deserve and that are not always warranted. But you have to put your head down and fight, fight, fight. Look at the way ive been treated lately, especially by the media. No politician in history and i say this with great surety has been treated worse or more unfairly. You cant let them get you down. You cant let the critics and the naysayers get in the way of your dreams. I guess thats why i thank you. I guess thats why we won. Thats President Trump at the Coast Guard Academy looking for comfort. Anyway, we continue to cover this breaking story of the hour. The Justice Department has just appointed a special counsel in the trump russia connection. Former fbi director Robert Mueller will be taking over that role as special counsel himself. Lets get reaction now from three members of the United States house of representatives. Congressman charlie dent is a republican from pennsylvania. Congresswoman Jackie Speier is a democrat from california. And congressman Joaquin Castro is a democrat from texas. I got to start with the republican, charlie. Youre sort of one of those last dying breed moderate republicans from the northeast, and this to me gives a lot of cover to a lot of people. How can you oppose the naming of a special counsel after the New York Times breaks a story which is incontrovertible, undeniable that he told comey, you know, what he did tell comey. I mean this is you know, he told comey to quash the investigation to use the legal term of his National Security adviser. Thats on the record now. It looks like the Justice Department had to act at this point, and they did. Well, look, first, chris are you for it by waltthe wa . I accept it. Robert mueller will do a good job. I actually wanted to see an independent investigation, probably an independent Commission Similar to the 9 11 commission. But now that we have a special counsel, im i accept that, and i accept that Robert Mueller will do a good job. But a commission would have no Legal Authority to prosecute. Im sorry . A commission would be like, you know, something out of brookings, something out of the truth and justice commission. It wouldnt indict anybody. It wouldnt carry any criminal penalty. Why would you be for something that wouldnt catch the bad guys . Well, chris, up to this point i thought we were talking about a counterintelligence investigation, not a criminal investigation. But now that a special prosecutor has been appointed, it appears maybe theyre moving in a different direction. Well, an fbi investigation is a criminal investigation for spies. Youre looking for spies and you put them away for life. What do you mean its not a criminal investigation . Its catching the spies. Well, i would just beg to differ that a counterintelligence investigation could turn into a criminal investigation, but not necessarily a criminal investigation. Okay. Well, lets go to Jackie Speier on this from california. Congresswoman, your thoughts on this. I think a lot of democrats have been asking for it. Now youve got it. Ive been harping on this for weeks, and i must say to you, chris, that i have been in this downward despair spiral about this democracy, and today im uplifted. You know, we can all say that our democracy survives and thrives and give credit for Rod Rosenstein for doing a courageous act. I mean another profile in courage coming out of the a. G. s house because between he and sally yates, theyre keeping our country safe and secure and honest. Good for our Public Servants. We just got a paper statement. Its on paper from President Trump. Quote, as i have stated many times, a thorough investigation will confirm what we already know. There was no collusion between my campaign and any foreign entity. He doesnt even say russia. I look forward to the matter concluding quickly. In the meantime, i will never stop fighting for the people and the issues that matter most to the future of our country. Congressman castro, thank you for joining us. What do you make of this . Special . Counsel . I think its a strong and positive development. The American People have been demanding that the congress and the Justice Department take action, and today the Deputy Attorney general took action. Is this enough . Well, i agree with congressman dent. I also think theres room for an independent commission outside of the politicians in congress to do the investigatory work and also to do the factfinding and make policy recommendations about how we prevent this from happening again in 2018, 2020, and so forth. If the special counsel determines, congresswoman, that the president engaged in obstruction of justice by trying to get the fbi director to drop a case surrounding him and it does surround him should he be impeached . I think well let the facts take us to where we need to go. Im not at this point prepared to suggest that we move to impeachment. I do think no. I asked conditionally if obstruction of justice was practiced by the president by trying to quash an investigation of his own operation and then fired the fbi director for not doing what he asked him to do, for not quashing the investigation, does that strike you as obstruction of justice and impeachable . I do think those elements of obstruction of justice would be met, particularly if you can show that there was corrupt intention, and were going to have to see where this all takes us. What would be uncorrupt about a president trying to drop an investigation into him, himself . You just got to prove that there was the intention, that the intention was corrupt in nate. Okay. I think we just have to wait and see. So its possible, you think, that the president simply felt sympathy for mr. Flynn and cared about his well being and just wanted to get the heat off him for a sympathetic reason . You think thats possible . Thats an argument that could be made. Whether it could be sustained, i dont know. Thank you. Stay there. Congressman dent, your thoughts about this . What do you think of what weve learned so far thanks to the New York Times . A lot of people in your district read the times. The times reported right on the front page that the president tried to quash the investigation. Well, look, ill tell you what. I read it. I certainly took it very seriously. I was alarmed. And i said at that moment that we have to get to the bottom of this. We have to find out what the truth is and what the facts are and let the facts take us wherever they go. And then that would determine whatever course of action we take at that point. But, look, i was alarmed by it when i read it. Not only the way the firing occurred of james comey, the release of the classified material or declassification of the material to the russians, and now this issue of the comey memo and, you know, taking it easy on michael flynn. So this is all very serious. Its alarming, and thats why we have to get to the bottom of this now that there is a special counsel involved. I suspect well find out soon enough just what happened and who said what to woman. Mr. Castro, congressman, do you think the president s taking this seriously when he puts out the word on a tweet, which i think is an unusual means of communication for the president of the United States, to say that he has taping equipment in the white house . Now, that opens up a whole new avenue of inquiry. I dont think he does, but i think it was a bluff. But if he does, that was his way, i think, of intimidating through some other means the former fbi director. First of all he tries to get the guy to quash the investigation of the trump team. Then he fires him for not doing what he tells him to do. Then he threatens him with a taping system. I mean what do you have to do to prove the guys pushing the guy around . Well, first its very hard for me to offer any kind of rationale for his behavior. His behavior has been very erratic and has created a lot of instability even within the white house and a really tense and anxious time for the country. As jackie said earlier, this is a deliberative, careful body. But i do believe that we should get a hold of those tapes if they exist, conversations between james comey and the president , and also any other evidence that we need to get. James comeys notes for example that he took in his meetings with the president. If the evidence shows that the president tried to obstruct justice, then i do believe that the congress will go down the road of impeachment. I think the rule of this is go to the nearest mens room, ladys room, write down every single word that the president said because youre going to need it sometime soon. Thank you very much. Two republican members of the Senate Intelligence committee reacted to the decision to appoint a special counsel on the russian investigation. Lets listen to them. To bring in someone like Robert Mueller that has already worked within the fbi, that it looks like hes going to work within the fbi process, youve got a prime Decision Maker there. This is, i think, a positive thing for the American People, that youve got a former director of the fbi and a highly respected lawyer who can work for the acting attorney general, and there wont be any reason to think that theres a conflict of interest from the hill, from the white house, or from within the Justice Department. Tonight the Justice Department has named a special counsel to take over the entire trump russia investigation. Former fbi director Robert Mueller will lead the probe. The news comes down one day after the revelation of a memo in which former fbi director james comey said trump asked him to end the probe of National Security adviser michael flynn. This also comes as nbc news reports that flynn and former Campaign ChairmanPaul Manafort are the primary targets of the fbi in connection with the investigation. Im joined right now by nbcs justice correspondent pete williams. A lot to pack together here. Do you want to start with the special counsel and find our way to the grand juries . Reporter okay. Well, rosenstein says in his announcement tonight that he appointed the special counsel because he thought it would be in the Public Interest. He says the public has to have confidence in whatever the outcome of this is, and he decided that this would be in the Public Interest to take this step. And thats exactly what the special counsel law says. It says the attorney general or, when hes recused, the deputy should appoint a special counsel if there would be a conflict with Justice Department investigators to handle the case or it would be in the Public Interest or i guess it says and it would be in the Public Interest to have an independent person. So under the rules here, this is not, remember, chris, the independent counsel law. That expired in 99. So this is not truly independent. Its a special counsel. The rules say they have to be from outside the government, which bob mueller is now. Hes in private law practice. By the way, he says tonight hes resigning from that private firm so that there wont be any suggestion of any conflict of interest with any cases that firm might be handling. So the special counsel has the full powers of a u. S. Attorney, can investigate, can even file charges if it comes to that, and can investigate the specific order that rosenstein signed here basically says hell investigate the russia matter, anything else that comes before the special counsel that he thinks he should be looking into. If he wants to expand it, he has to go back to Rod Rosenstein and get permission. Thats one way the special counsel is different from the socalled independent counsel weve had in the past. The effect of this is, in the short term, to delay this russian matter because of the fact that mueller will have to take some time to get up to speed on it. He can bring in outside staff if he wants to. He can use existing Justice Department people. None of what the fbi is doing is going to change. Mueller, remember, would be in the position of overseeing the investigation, basically standing in the shoes of the deputy who is now taking himself out of it, the Deputy Attorney general. So thats the way it works. Now, you said grand jury. They can use a grand jury to issue subpoenas if they want. We know theyve already done that, the Justice Department has in the case of michael flynn. But who knows whether this is going to lead to criminal prosecution . The fbi has been saying since the beginning that this is a counterintelligence investigation, so we dont know how its going to end. But as i say, i think the immediate effect of this is to delay it a little. But of all the people they could have brought, the guy who knows the fbi the best is mueller, who has served there as director 12 years, and that is only bested by one other person, and thats j. Edgar hoover. Well done. Thank you so much, pete williams. Im joined by richard ben very niece ta, former watergate richard, the question here is the president s vulnerability. Thats why were covering this case. Most people dont care about Paul Manafort or michael flynn. They want to know what the president did with these people. How does Robert Mueller get to the bottom of that . Well, he starts investigating the way investigators go forward. Pete had a very good exposition of what a special counsel. He, unlike a commission, has the right to subpoena witnesses and if warranted, he can bring charges, ask a grand jury to return indictments. And not only does he, by this order, investigate directly the russia connection to any americans who may have assisted the russians, but he can investigate anything that arises in the course of that investigation. So thats quite a broad mandate. Includes going after the russians as well according to what im hearing tonight. He wants to find out what the russians did. Well, certainly that, and we certainly need more clarity with that. But if there are any americans, quiz lings, those who have betrayed their country by explain the norwegian reference. Quiz ling was the guy that went in with the nazis at the beginning of the war. Just to go through the shopping list, can they pick up the memos from comey . Yes. They can subpoena them and demand them, right . Yes. What about any taperecordings the president may have made . Yes. Just from square one, they dont have to prove any criminality . Just right now they can subpoena that stuff . They have the right to obtain evidence that relates to this investigation, and so all of the fbi files, everything the fbi has done, now bob mueller stands in the shoes of the attorney general of the United States. Michael flynn, we know he didnt fill out some of these forms accurately. Thats why theyre going to get him. He didnt admit income he had gotten from the russians, the 34k he got for going over to that Russian Television event, that dinner he sat through. He didnt acknowledge apparently the relationship he had with the russians. He had an interview with the fbi in which presumably he gave the same story he gave the Vice President. Which was a lie. And lying to the fbi is a separate crime. And they have that as part of their arsenal now to go after him . Yes. And this will all be under mueller. So mueller has all this information to use to try to get the truth heading all the way to the president . Yes, he does. Lets talk about obstruction of justice. The case you were involved in, the watergate case, the case involving bill clinton, whatever you think of the case, they got an impeachment out of it, not a conviction. They probably would have got rn both out of nixon if he hadnt resigned. Talk about the possibilities of impeachment down the road. What do they need for that . I think were ahead no. What do you need for that . You need evidence of a crime. And if you find evidence of a crime, then it becomes political in that we have a constitutional process for removing a president for high crimes and misdemeanors. Define. Can you define high crimes and misdemeanors . Its in the eye of the beholder as we have seen previously. However, if it is a felony thats provable, you are a long way toward an impeachable offense. So were not there yet by any means. We dont even know if these memos exist. We havent seen them. Weve heard about them. And so im not in the conclusionjumping business. Im not either. But when you look at the fact he tried to get the fbi director who was on his case to give up the case. He then fired the guy for not giving up the case. I mean what if all of those things prove to be so, i think we need to hear from jim comey. We need to see the corroborating information, contemporaneous memoranda that comey supposedly wrote. We need to see those things before you heard on the show we made some problem in that direction because apparently he didnt just scribble down these notes in the mens room. He apparently put them into the system, had them replicated for a number of his colleagues in the fbi in a very formal, bureaucratic manner. One of the things that was interesting to me was the statement about the president demanding loyalty. Thats another piece of this. This is very troublesome. If that is true, thats a misunderstanding of what people who work for the government do. This is not a private company, and thats where things diverge. Loyalty to a private company or to don corleone, its different than working for the government. We pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands. We dont pledge allegiance to an individual, and that is so contrary to what George Washington started with this country. I remember janet reno, when bill clinton would call her up, she would say, lit me get my notebook. She wanted it all on the record. Lets bring in clint watts, former fbi special agent who worked under Robert Mueller. Clinton, thanks for joining us. Youre an expert character witness tonight. Tell us about Robert Mueller who has got maybe the biggest job short of the president s right now. I think everybody should remember he was asked to stay on by the Obama Administration because he had done such a great job through the turmoil of the counterterrorism years. Hes very well respected in the bureau. Everyone should realize that mccabe and the deputies that are there currently all worked for mueller for many years. So they know each other, and theres a tight relationship there. The other thing that people should remember is mueller was the fbi director when comey was also over at the doj. They know each other. These are lifelong servants, and they are lawyers. They understand the legal process. And so its going to be an interesting dynamic. You couldnt have picked a better person to take on this investigation and try and see it through. Werent they in the same fox hole together when they fought against the use of wiretapping against the big shots in the bush yes. The w. Bush administration . Yes. These two fbi directors, they know each other well. And its going to be interesting how it gets boxed in here with President Trump. He could very much be boxed in with the outside with the comey sort of letters and this testifying to congress. And at the same point, the russia investigation is going to move forward. Theres a lot of things that the white house should be concerned about. But i do have to say rosenstein today really made an excellent choice and did the right thing for our country. You know, i think down in a coal mine theres two different jobs. Theres one picking away at the wall to get the coal in the ground. The other guy shovels it and takes it up top. Im more worried about the picking away from the wall. I think once we knocked it off the wall, well go with it and something will happen. I wonder how aggressive you think the special counsel will be in getting that basic information you have to dig for. I think the investigators in the fbi have got a solid base. It sounds like theyve been working on this for quite some time. At the same point, mueller is going to get up to speed on this very quick. I know people are talking about how slow this will be. Mueller, you remember, he was one week on the job when 9 11 happened. I mean he was fresh out of this, and he is used to hitting the hardest investigations and the toughest challenges. Hes the one that took on the counterterrorism fight. Hes also the individual that led the charge for reforming intelligence inside the bureau. That was a major upheaval and a change around that 20072009 period. So hes taken on these tough challenges inside the government. He stayed on when the Obama Administration needed him. He served longer than everybody but hoover. I think this is a great choice. Its also interesting that in these tumultuous times, we tend to fall back on those that have been doing the counterterrorism fight and leading our country. Weve got mcmaster in the white house and now mueller coming back. Lets talk about the right thing to do. Youre an fbi director, and the president asks you for an oath of allegiance. What do you do . You do exactly what comey did. You know, he basically pledged allegiance back to the country and to the constitution. If the accounts of that evening meal are correct and i believe they are i think comey made the right choice, and thats exactly what youre going to see from mueller as well. I think the two of them understood their role, which is to protect the constitution and the American People, not to protect politicians. And here just for everybody on the show right now, Robert Mueller just issued a statement. It says, i accept this responsibility. Thats to be special counsel, to investigate the russian affair and will discharge it to the best of my ability. Second question to you, clint. What happens when a guy asks you to quash an investigation . You got all your agents on it and its making progress. What do you do when the president says stop investigating my guy, which means stop investigating me . Do you quit . No. I disagree with this. Do you rat him out . No. Ive heard this before, you know, the last couple days, why didnt comey quit . Heres the deal. You know, comeys job is to protect the American People. And when he starts to feel that pressure and influence, we dont just roll over and quit every time. Hes got a job to do, and the best thing that he could do was be fired, was to continue the case, was trying to continue and be independent. You know, comey steps out of that position, quits, man, theyre just going to replace him with an fbi director who is going to quash the investigation, one thats potentially picked by the trump administration. So i think comey did the best he could to handle the situation. Right. The other thing that people should remember is the letters are not evidence. I keep hearing about the comey letters as evidence. Theyre not. Comeys conversations and his testimony is the evidence. What is important about the letter is that it shows that it corroborates what he is going to say. And it also corroborates contemporaneously because he did it at that time. Exactly. He was preparing for this sort of influence. Thank you so much, clint watts. Let me ask you, richard, the same two questions. Youre fbi director and your president comes to you and says i want an oath of office. I want an oath to be personally. Number two, quash the investigation of my people. What do you do . You dont do it. But what do you do about it. You dont do it, and you dont roll over. You dont run away. You hang in there. Thats what we did in watergate after the saturday night massacre and archie cox got fired. There was a discussion. Should we all resign in protest . Hell no. Stick around. You think comey may have seen what was coming next . First the oath of office rejected. Then he rejected his proposal that i think he got blindsided. You think he thought he was secure . I dont think he thought this was coming as quickly as it did. I know bob mueller from working with him as a commissioner on the 9 11 commission where the fbi provided tremendous assistance to us on the 9 11 commission. Hes a guy who is deliberate. Hes honest as the day is long. How long ago was watergate . 1973. Do the math. 27 and 17 is 44. H 44 years ago. I was only 16 at the time. You are the eternal youth machine. Thank you. Lets bring in more reaction to the big news tonight. Robert mueller named as special counsel to investigate trump and russia and the connections. Mike viqueira is up on the hill. It must be amazing to watch everybody jump into line. Oh, were all for a special counsel now. Reporter youre right, chris. You can almost hear an audible sigh of relief, coming especially from the Republican Leadership suites just behind me. I mean this thing is just dominating the news cycle up here. Dozens of cameras following members of congress, particularly republican members of congress, every step of the way in the halls of congress as well. So what we see are relatively tepid statements, formal statements from the leadership. Mitch mcconnell, paul ryan saying their investigations within the senate committee, the house committee, theyre going to go forward, but they more or less welcome this development. But, look, this is something that will help take this off the table of congress, will perhaps give them some breathing room, an infusion of oxygen into these halls. Richard burr, who is running the Senate Intelligence committee, whereas a couple of days ago he said, look, i dont want a special counsel. Ive got my own Committee Investigating this. Tonight even he is welcoming it. Remember, Rod Rosenstein is due up on the hill tomorrow, chris, and why . Because Chuck Schumer had taken the senate floor in the wake of the firing. Remember the very solemn occasion where all senators were gathered, and he said, we want a full briefing from Rod Rosenstein on just how all of this went down. Mitch mcconnell put in a little bit of a box. He wernt along with it. So were going to get that tomorrow. So perhaps not a coincidence that this announcement came today. Rod rosenstein due on the hill at about 2 30 tomorrow afternoon. Also consider this. The democrats position from across the capitol, from senate side over here to the house side is that they were not going to agree to any fbi nominee. They were going to do everything they could to block it, obviously more on the senate side since they have that power. Now the air has come out of that balloon as well. So i think in the short term at least for members of congress, a welcome development. Obviously democrats rejoicing. Republican reaction a little bit more tepid but still, i think, relieved. Thats got nothing to do with the reaction down at the white house tonight where obviously it spells trouble. Chris. Great reporting. Thank you, mike, from capitol hill. Lets bring in now some people on our roundtable tonight. Ari melber, ruth marcus, jason johnson, and alex eisen stat. Ashley parker is with the washington times. I want to go with ashley parker. You got some news at the Washington Post. You got some news. Yeah, well, a couple things. One thing that was interesting right before this actual news broke, which was obviously a bombshell, i was talking to white house aides and people close to them, and they had basically been saying that the white house the president was not worried about the blowback from firing comey last week. He was not even worried about the news that he had basically disclosed highly classified information to the russians. But the comey memos were something that really concerned them because they realized that it could open them up to legal jeopardy. So what youre seeing tonight is sort of the realization of their worst fears and their nightmares. Let me go to jason. Youve got some news too. I want to get it all on the table tonight. I talked to some of my sources at the fbi. They talked about muellers relationship with comey. Theyre not just in the fox hole together. Theyre friends. Theyre golfing and dinner buddies. And mueller actually recommended comey for the job. So this is not a good look for President Trump. It may be good for american democracy, but this is someone who is both personally and ideal logically and constitutionally invested in the investigation, and hes not going to be influenced by anything so its optimistic, rulth, that were going to get some memos to put in the newspaper soon. Im pretty optimistic about that. Were going to see them in print. Theres potential im getting a little blowback here. Theres a little bit of a potential wrinkle here because theres some suggestion not from the white house but from legal experts that theres a question of executive privilege and whether which executive privilege lasts even after youve left. So will the president assert executive privilege . In regard to the memos kept by the fbi . To block the memos from being released and to block comey from testifying. If its in comeys mind, what happened in his conversation with the president , how can you deny him his right to free speech . You can say that that is covered by the privilege of his you know who is going to enforce that . Well you think the Supreme Court would actually back up the president on keeping a secret like that . I think it becomes an assertion of privilege and then lets try ari. Weve got a legal expert here. Ari, do you think there will be any executive privilege credibility in such a case . That argument unlikely to attach to investigative materials or contemporaneous corroborating evidence that is offered by the fbi, at least in a proper forum, if there is testimony being provided from in this case a former official although we know president s in both parties like to test executive privilege to the max. Chris, the other big point here is i think the headline tonight, the biggest headline is the system is working. We were talking over the last week about the system being tested, and its working. Rod rosenstein is a political appointee of President Donald Trump and a career prosecutor. Jeff sessions was a politician before he became the attorney general. But lets give some credit. I think its merited where deserved even if it came under pressure. The attorney general for all the criticism of him did recuse. Now he undid some of that at times but its this recusal that left this ball in rosensteins court, and he now has done the right thing in putting forward this special counsel who is itself a good pick. Robert mueller as everyone has described is a real nonpartisan longstanding official. We have no reason as a country, as journalists, as patriots at this juncture to think this is anything other than what it looks like, which is now an independent chance to get to the bottom of the facts. If you believe in donald trump and you like donald trump and you think, you hope that theres nothing wrong underneath the hood of that car, then great. Thats good news. And if you like america and you want this system to now go forward, thats good news. And for people who are hoping to get something political out of this, i would argue that its bad news because i dont think Robert Mueller is going to look to damage anyone. I would strenuously disagree with what my colleague jason was saying about a friendship. I dont think anything about Robert Muellers background suggests that he goes in and looks at facts based on his friends or his enemies. I think he looks for facts. I think the system is working tonight because we now have a person in charge who can go look at where the facts are regardless of who likes them. Alex, your thoughts about this because ive been saying this on this show for months now. Im very proud of knowing a lot of print reporters who right for the a sections of their newspapers, not columnists with opinions, left, right, or center, but factual News Reporters are trumps worst enemy, and he made that clear. And Public Servants because i remember from the watergate days what really brought down nixon was the conservative democrat sam ervin, a moderate republican named howard baker, a judge, a hanging judge named by republicans, john sa rick ca, and a very cautiously democrat, a bunch of lefties didnt bring down richard nixon. Its been remarkable to watch because every evening of every day there is a major revelation. Theres a major story, if not multiple stories that are coming out about this white house, and youre really seeing this white house really veering at this point. They are just enveloped in chaos at the worst possible moment. The president is about to leave on a trip overseas. And, yes, print reporters are making the difference as it rela relates to this case and as it relates to this white house. Lets have some fun here, rulth, and then jason. Hes going over to the warm, embracing arms of a former friend, bibi netanyahu, who now has to prove the pride of his country by saying youve been giving away our intel. Besides intel, i think most countries in the middle east, including israel, are proud of their intelligence services, certainly jordan is. And to give away our jewels oh, and by the way, that western wall actually channeling bibi netanyahu, it is in israel. This was not a good week for the netanyahu trump relationship. Give me the geography because i know East Jerusalem is in dispute, but the western wall part is not. Well, this is the territory that is the most disputed because it is the most holy territory for, you know, two or three religions. So every inch of it matters. But the notion that an administration would suggest that the western wall is not part of israel is a very explosive suggestion, blown up in fact by u. N. Ambassador nikki haley. You have splitlevel living over there which makes it very complicated. Ive been over there. I love jerusalem. Jason, this is a lot going on here. One of the things going on is the stock market plummeting. I would think, loving the marxist analysis of everything, i think giving a special prosecutor this tasks gets it off the books of the senate. It lets them go back to what republicans like to do, cut taxes for well off people. If they can get back to that business and the things they like to do, its going to get the market back up again. Yes. Well see tomorrow. Thats the political wise decision thats happened here. You hand it over to mueller, who has got an investment in making sure he does a long, thorough case. Hes going to be starting from the beginning and republicans can get back to this agenda. Which is you canning taxes for rich people. And should mueller come out with something in a year, they ari, can we have split decision make something can we really compartmentlize . I think the republicans hope they can because if they dont pursue their agenda and pay back those people that voted for them and the rich people that may not have voted for them, theyre going to lose this countrys economy. This economy is everything for trump, i believe. As long as its going up, hes staying. The minute it starts to go down, im not sure hes going to have the popularity with the working guys out there, working women. I think the politics of that makes sense. Chris, you covered the clinton era when everyone talked about the, quote, politicization of politicians. Lately weve had the investigative nature of Law Enforcement hanging over both nominees, and all of this stuff, and then weve had a very unusual approach by the president here. Lets not forget the politics are that donald trump probably made Donald Trumps life harder over the past two weeks than any other force. I dont know whether hell see it that way. I dont know whether his aides will weigh in on him. Im wondering what you think of this unusual short statement that came out from the president , not in tweet form, saying he expects to be vindicated and hell leave it at that. But donald trump is the person who changed the game here. We know that Rod Rosenstein two weeks ago was not in favor of a special counsel and a russia probe and where all that goes. So to your point about the politics in the senate and the house where republicans have the majority and want to get back to governing, sure, i think they want to get back to governing. Theyd like to make this investigation be at least on a quiet separate track and theyre hoping that the president perhaps will finally join them in that because the last two weeks have shown what does trump pushback look like and who is it good for . Not donald trump. You know what i think . I think theres a wonderful clash of personalities here. We can never figure out each other let alone ourselves. But trump knows who trump is. Let me go to ashley. Hes all over the place. Every second is a brandnew place of life and a brandnew experience, a brandnew existence. A guy like Rod Rosenstein is a good guy, knows his job, and he does it. They do their job step by step. Same with comey. Keeps notes after meetings. He probably goes home, as a regular life, plays golf and does all the normal things. Trump cant understand a guy like comey any more than comey can trump. But trump is now confronted with bureaucrats in washington who are not dazzling billionaires but they get up every day and see a service performing at a moderate income for their company and they tend to do it. And trump doesnt know how to deal with guys like that because hes never met anybody like that. Just a thought. I mean thats exactly right. One of the things that his aides and people close to him are expressing is the reason he is so angry and frustrated and raging in recent weeks is that he basically feels out of control. There are all these things he cant control. As you said, hes used to sort of trying to get through the day, you know, get through the minute, get through the hour. Hes not thinking about a longterm strategy of, you know, lets say you put a Health Care Bill for instance in the house. Can it actually then pass the senate, or what does it actually mean if i urge my fbi director to drop a charge against or drop an investigation general flynn. Thats not the way he thinks, and he is running up against this bureaucracy of washington. As you know, everyone comes to d. C. Saying theyre going to change it. And while he certainly upended things, you know, these same rules do apply, and thats what hes bumping up against. Alex, quickly, there is a gull ivers travels aspect to this. He comes to washington with a lot of people who arent billionaires, they can bring him down. Were really going to get a sense of what this president is made of if hes going to be able to survive this because, look, this white house is in pure crisis, damage control mode. Were going to see what happens with this mueller investigation. Its going to be interesting to see if hes going to be if the president will be able to push his very ambitious agenda while all this is playing out. I think a lot of republicans around town have their doubts right now about that. Ruth, you know the culture of this city, and you know the bureaucrats. Its a negative word. People like George Wallace ran against the pointy headed bureaucrats with their Peanut Butter sandwiches. Remember . Its easy to make fun of people that work every day, but theyre going to do their jobs. They are going to do their jobs. But i do think its probably wrong to think now we have the special counsel named, so this can die down and we dont have to Pay Attention to it for a year while this is going on. What do you mean . Fred hyatt is writing the editorial right now . It was written before i left the office. But congress has a role here thats separate from the role of prosecutors, which is to get to the bottom of what happened not as a criminal matter but as an intelligence matter and a National Security matter. They cant give up their role either. Its hard to consume all this as quickly as we did, but we do chug alug this news these nights. They all break at 5 30 at night. Its like thunder clapping here. Thank you, everyone. Let me finish tonight with trump watch for wednesday, may 17th, 2017. Tonight the president of the United States has a tail on him. The u. S. Justice department has assigned a special counsel to investigate trumps role in dealing with the russians during the 2016 campaign. What did he know, and when did he know it . Those are the watergate watch words and they will be thrown into battle with ump there. We know the russians conducted a major effort to influence the election in trumps direction. We know that his National Security adviser spoke with the Russian Ambassador about economic sanctions being relieved. Were there other trump connections and communications with moscow regarding what his presidency would mean in the two countries relations . We now have Robert Mueller, the former fbi director in charge. It will be his duty to the country tody certain between the charges thrown by trumps critics and the reality of what trump did, what he had or allowed others to do on his behalf. The problem the president faces is the general knowledge now in this country that the russians wanted him to win. Whats needed to know now is how he responded to the russian effort, if he did, or how his people responded, if they did on his behalf. The work of this special counsel is already cut out for them. This shouldnt take forever. The credibility of the Trump Presidency rests on whats discovered. We should all, all americans, root for the special counsel to do the job effectively and comprehensively. The country needs the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thats hardball for now. Thanks for being with us. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Tonight on all in. With all due respect, i want to see it done properly. Another day, another bombshell. There will be a special counsel in the russia investigation. To be clear, mr. Muellers purview will be the entire russia issue. Former fbi director bob mueller takes over. Tonight, reaction from a stunned white house. Barney frank and Maxine Waters with reaction from democrats, and what this means for the investigation going forward. This russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story. When all in starts right now. Go