0 to put out, that there will have to be a default. do you believe the secretary of the treasury is lying? and do you have someone else who says we will not go into default? what will we pay in terms of cops against? suppose you're wrong? >> the white house is using political gainsmanship and wordsmanship. it depends on what the word default means. to most people it means you're not paying your debt obligations. and there is no way in the world that we would not have sufficient revenue to pay our creditors. now the president in his discretion in a government shut down or in a no-raise the debt ceiling situation may decide he doesn't want to pay our creditors, but we still have over $2 trillion of revenue coming in, and our obligations are in the hundreds of billions. what the white house is using is they're saying the entire things we want to spend money on, if we don't spend them it's a default. >> this is kamikaze. the other question, if there is a raise in the debt ceiling, why are we arguing about this? it doesn't make sense what you're saying. it's ill logical. is there a debt ceiling? >> there is a debt ceiling. and that limits the amount of money the united states can borrow. if we're going to continue on this spree of trillion deficits. it's going to be a good year, of course that sarcasm is bad. >> you know as well as i do that these bills have been passed. the costs haven about run up already. the bills have been signed by the president. what you're talking about is will you pay your debts or not. >> wait a second, chris. it's the same thing that governors have to do in the 50 states. if you have a legislature and they're wrong and the spending exceeds the revenue then you have pro ray shun. >> there's no danger here of the unit going into default. >> i'm not saying there's no danger. there is a risk to our economy. and i hope that the president will understand that there is a bigger picture here and that bigger picture is whether or not the united states of america is going to continue on this path to insolvency and bankruptcy. that is a much bigger threat. >> what does he have to do to avoid dough fault, the president? >> what the president has to do. okay. which default are you using? the jack lew's? >> i want to get the congressman's views before we bring you in david. you're saying that the president has to do what? >> the president needs to be financially responsible. i will vote to raise the debt ceiling if the president will start addressing the underlying cause of the problem, which is our deficit. >> that's not what you guys are saying. >> the deficits are going down. >> excuse me, david. just a minute here. i want to get his view. i thought you guys were saying if the president doesn't dough lay or kill obamacare. the affordable care act. isn't that what you're demanding as a price for raising the debt ceiling? >> i'm not. i've never said that. >> you're not demanding that. >> i've never said that, now i will support a continuing resolution, and i will support a bill at the same time that kills obamacare because i think obamacare is that dangerous to our financial situation. >> what did i just hear you say? >> there in are other circumstances i would vote for a continuing resolution. it's not limited to obamacare. although that's one of the things that would cause me to do it. >> is one of the conditions getting rid of obamacare? >> when you use the word condition, no. but that's one of the carrot. >> we're, that's a way of saying that you guys on the right are basically saying there's a hostage situation here. we will not bring the government into default if you get rid of obamacare. >> wait a second. i don't want a government shut down. that's something that the democrats and the senate and the white house want because they think they can use it to their political advantage in the 2014 elections. >> that's a conjecture. i don't know whether that's true or not. >> chris. >> there's a problem very easily, by just addressing the appropriation bills that the house has already passed. >> before you start, david i want to point out a couple facts. two years we went through this and we didn't reach the default and we lost points in the stock market. the dow just dived. this hurt everyone's 401(k). the wall street journal in its lead editorial the other day said this is kamikaze politics. your thoughts, david? >> it's not just kamikaze. it reminds me of those stories of japanese soldiers left on the island after world war ii. we went through the debt ceiling fight. we've been through several budget showdowns again and again. and you see the same thing. you see congressman brooks and his pals and they are taking hostages. and they're even trying to defy john boehner and eric cantor who would like to come to some sort of compromise. they refuse to recognize that we have divided government. and they refuse to recognize that the congress passed obamacare. the supreme court said it was constitutional. and they want to keep having this same fight over and over again. in groundhog day, bill murray -- >> i want to ask you about the polling data. i know there's a political consideration. what do you think. >> chris. >> according to a recent cnn poll, a majority of americans will blame republicans if congress, if the government is shut down. only 33% will blame obama. now when it comes to debt default. >> i'm going to have to interject. i appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, but we have a natural resources vote taking place right now and i have 30 seconds to cast that vote. >> make your vote. david, i want you to pick up, but a couple things are important. it's not just ideology. it has to do with governance. if the government goes into default or threatens it, i was at jack lew's breakfast the other day, filled with business people. i listened to the wall street journal editorial. this is not a left/right argument. it may seem like one, but if our government goes into default our credit rating will go down immediately. the stock market will drop. this recession could return, all kinds of bad things. this is not a left/right argument. >> interest rates could go up. there could be a financial crisis that extends beyond the shores of the united states. now the congressman can get up there and make an assertion that everything will be fine and the president can finning ale his way out by paying a certain set of bills rather than other payments which we argued and debated two years ago, but the bottom line is that most economists of the right, left, and middle disagree with this. so is he willing to take a gamble? is he willing to throw the dice here because he's so mad about government spending, which is actually going down? or is he so upset by obamacare? >> let's take a look at what the president said. president obama took to the offensive. this is the president earlier today addressing business leaders in washington. >> you have never seen in the history of the united states, debt ceiling or the threat of not raising the debt ceiling being used to extort a president or a governing party and trying to force issues that have nothing to do with the budget and have nothing to do with the debt. >> you know, ronald reagan had it go up several times. the responsibility is to keep those savings bonds real, and to make the money you borrow in t-bills and everything else around the world mean something. it's not a joke. and it's not a political argument. >> some republicans want to take hostages to get policy concessions out of the president. i think some republicans want to take hostages just to blow up the bank. they want chaos. >> i think you're right, actually. >> and i think that's what's dangerous here. >> i think they're willing to dance on this thing, thinking maybe it will blow up. if it does, that's the grownups problem to deal with. that's not for little members of congress who only have to represent 600,000 people. all i have to do is be ideologically in synch with them and i'm covered. >> boehner's empowering these people. he won't face them down. so they feel like they have a lot of muscle. they can even defy the wall street journal page. >> i think if boehner does the same thing he'll be there for five more minutes. a big dog, he love does do all the things obama hates doing, and right now the president could use some help. and two groups are working against the voter photo id law. and the ceo of starbucks coming here. he says he loves your business, but please keep the guns at home. and why would any normal person want to detonate the american economy? this is "hardball," place for politics. you make a great team. it's been that way since the day you met. but your erectile dysfunction - here's a big reason republicans should be worried heading into next year's elections. according to our poll, women are leaning more toward the democrats than they were even in 2010 or 2012. women prefer democrats by a margin of 51% than 36%. that's a spread of 15 points. and white women who went republican in the last elections now lean democrat. so if they fail to win next election it could be due to their poor showing among women.