responsibility for its actions. in a poll out today showing voters are not supporting this republican tea party approach. plus, pay attention to the man behind the curtain. really pay attention. the gop the refusal to raise any taxes under any circumstances is matching the clear purposes the man pushing republican tax policy right now. one man. grover norquist, the most powerful man most americans have never heard of plays "hardball" here tonight. plus, another day, another resignation in the murdoch scandal. this time the number two man in scotland yard. onone man went belly up. and easy to follow flow chart tonight of the tangled relationships between and among murdoch's people and the police and will ask, is it happening here in america as well? if you've never heard that michele bachmann referred to homosexuality at bondage, despair and enslavement, gay rights groups have and are making sure will you. tonight, anything you say, or certainly anything michele bachmann says, will be used against you in the court of public opinion. let me finish tonight with a great moment for america. even if defeat at the world cup. we start with the republicans as a protest party. david korn and an msnbc political analyst and pat buchanan, a political analyst as well for msnbc. i was watching you on "morning joe." working both ends ever the block. 12 hours after you began your day. never seen a republican democrat party, we have is a position, take it or leave it. we're not dealing at all with you. what do you think of the party platform now. the republican party, the tea part platform in effect coming out of the house? >> i think the teat party has proek taken a p.r. beating you've or others have described, chris. in public opinion as an intransigent group. the truth is they're going to win this battle. i'll tell you why. at the end of the day, we are going to get an increase in the debt ceiling. we are going to get budget cuts, maybe of $2 trillion, $1.5 trillion or $1 trillion. we're going to get no- new revenue no new taxes nap is exactly the position of the republican party and the tea party movement. no new tax, let's cut the budget and have gotten it, quite frankly, chris, by digging their feet in, being tough, being -- resistant and standing by their principles. >> what day will this occur? it this deal's success? the success of the intransigent naert says my way or the highway? when will they win the battle? this month or next month? >> may be august 2nd. if not the week after. >> won't be damage to the country? won't have inflicted damage to the country to get their way? >> my guess, republicans, boehner and others after they get their cup, cap and balance vote behind them will move to do it by the 2nd of august. i think boehner and the democrats will agree a one week, say, increase in the debt ceiling so they can put it all together so it's perils of pauline and the tea party wins. >> okay, okay. the tea party wins. david korn, i don't agree. do you agree? >> no. i think the gop is all tail and no dog now. the tail is the tea party. look at the recent polling. we may get to that later. >> let's look at the new polling. you've raised a good question. ap new cbs poll, you giving orders now, david. shows the president up happy in debt negotiation but far less approving of president obama. knop great winners. president, 43% approve, 48% days glee. better than democrats. 31%, 58% disapprove. and look at republicans. 21% approve and 71% disagroove. pat, you say though republicans don't like the approach, amend the constitution, cap and do this stuff, 18% of the gdp and all this, social engineering here, fiscal engineering and risk default by our government, perhaps a spike in the interest rate and all think this at no cost. your new tea party confederates will succeed? >> to this extent, we'll get the debt ceiling increase and barack obama will have to go to his democratic party and say to them, look, we got $1 trillion in cuts or $2 trillion in budget cuts, spending program, the programs we love. no revenues or new taxes. you're going to have a war inside your own party, because you're going to have lost this battle. >> let me ask you, david, i don't agree with that. that whole proposition is troublemaking. i think you're suggesting a deal that won't be cut. david, do you think the president of the united states and democrat, would ever cut a deal all spending cuts on the domestic side and no increases in revenue? could we ever make a deal like that? >> chris, i was on a call, on the record conference call, with the white house this afternoon, with dan pfeiffer and jason fuhrman, and i asked him that question. can there be any package without revenues? the president's position, he talked about last week, no, there will not be. seems right now john boehner doesn't have 218 votes for almost anything. no matter the deals. whether $10 trillion or $100 million. you're going to need democratic votes. the democrats i don't think will go along way package if there are just cuts, particularly if there are benefit cuts to medicare and social security and no revenue. there's still a lot of negotiations to be played out and in the meantime, day by day, the republicans are working in transigent and the willing to play with fire, because you fwlee? at least half of the members of the house republicans do want to blow up government. it's like blowing up -- the village to save the village. >> you're laughing. are you happy with your party being the party of mrs. o'leary's cow? basically starting the fire that was just mentioned. we've started it but helped put it out. this is where i think you have a problem. sure, do your show trial with the stuff about how we'll cut the budget down, use the constitution. you won't get the two-thirds vote, not even to 290. probably. all this effort to put on a show's dance back from your dance wit devil and somehow if you've started the fire sneak back to a position of 218 for a cover, keep it going, kick the can. why do you think republicans having been galvanized to this far right position will go so easily into the good night and accept a deal that keeps the debt ceiling going up? why do you think they'll be roused by the tea party types? >> cut the deal, i believe, chris, because they will have gotten their vote on cut, cap and balance. that will go through. >> so what? >> you keep talking obama's not going to sign anything and doesn't have tax increases. he indicated no tax revenue. ho will you get taxes from the president's desk if you can't get them through the house? >> don't you think they'll end up separating the two issues of debt ceiling and deaf it? >> what should happen. if you want fights over revenue and spending cuts do it separately up to the next election. at this point in time i this the public is spooked enough. i think -- moody's is spooked enough, obama has leverage. >> i think you're wrong. you're usually right about this. your party so hopped up and so red hot and so tea partied out here and then come back from this week and be sort of team players. here's congressman jim jordan, chairman of the republican study committee on voting on getting 218 votes for mitch mcconnell's plan, sort of the stop gap plan here. let's listen to what he says. >> the mcconnell plan doesn't have 218 republican votes. knop way. i'm telling you house conservative members, members of the republican senate, they won't support mcconnell plan. i'm not going to support the mcconnell plan. >> come back from the red hot position this week putting on their show with the constitutional amendment that stuff, and be dealmakers. you stick to that? >> sure. boehner will work out a deal. the mcconnell plan -- chris should -- it has no taxes nonchs spending cuts. >> no revenue. it's going to be $2 trillion. it's $1.5 trillion in spending cuts. what are you talking about? that's going to be the deal. >> and david, i believe i got to go with big spending cuts in revenues. makes no sense. >> i think the president, i said earlier, has leverage at this point because republicans depicted themselves as hostage-takers ready to blow things up and the public doesn't like this. they stood their ground. pat's right about that. the tea party people would be happy to see $100 billion cut out of the next budget which is in the bill that's up this week, even if that leads tos 700,000 lost jobs. happy top do safety inspections, environmental protection. kniss is what they want to do and stand by -- >> let's get back to reality. back to reality -- >> no. this is the reality, pat. >> david, what about -- >> david, hold on. let pat make his case. >> let me ask you this, chris. the republicans, say the mcconnell plan has a trillion or a trillion and a half in budget cuts in it. >> i don't think it does. >> in the house it passes. they send it to the president. he's going to veto it, shut down the government and puts if default? come on. >> the whole idea, mcconnell's, separate cuts from spending -- separate the ideological war fair fr faire to keep the country from debate. dress up lie indians and put on a show. they're running around burning down houses. it's a different type of tea paenchts they threw the tea in the harbor. >> pretty good. not exactly the dangerous stiff they're doing now. this is mrs. o'leery's cow politics. >> the markets understand what's going on here. that's why the republican dollar -- why u.s. bonds are at 3%. >> pat, we know your brand of politics is not 218 votes in the house of representatives. probably you're right. steny hoyer will come up with 100 democrats. >> right. >> this fella boehner, 118. pull 218 together. on a package basically separating debt ceiling increasing from deficit reduction. don't you agree? david? that's what they have to do? >> this will not be a -- >> okay. >> this will not be a package the tea party can claim credit for and it's nothing they can take to the bank. >> you're not sounding like a winner, david. >> back to brinkmanship. do you think this is healthy one party becomes a protest party instead of waving placards and spitting on congressmen when they walk by, this party moved into the halls of congress and is now controlling the process. is that good for american politic, to have 200 and some members of congress with an an tude, if the other side doesn't agree we bring the house down. is that good for america? >> america is divided culturally, economically, every other way. no area of agreement. the only way to decide these things is fight it out in the center of the field. negotiations be absurd. obama used them to beat up the republicans. republicans ought to vote what they believe. send it over and let the democrats and the president take it or leave it. >> what's the point of passing measures like congressional amend mountains that don't get the two-thirds vote even in the republican controlled house? what's the purpose of show events like that? pat? >> the purpose, go home to your people and say, we tried to do this. an awful lot of democratic house memberless vote for that balanced -- >> the clock is literally ticking, and they'd rather have these show votes than actually get together. you know, pat, back in december the president showed, as did mitch mcconnell, give him credit, you can compromise pap compromise of both people on the left and right were not only always happy but the tax cut deal, got together, did the hard work and they showed that -- >> in december the president of the united states -- >> and worked things out. when you have the tea party saying we're not even going to talk to you about anything you want, we're going to cut out the air supply -- >> december the president of the united states -- >> let me finish, pat. >> this is -- >> not responsible governance. >> let me ask you this. for a second here, let me report what's going on. my hero and your nemesis winston church hymn i refuse to be non-partisan between the fire brigade and the fire. the fire brig grade, grown-up, mcconnell, john mccain, lindsay graham and john boehner and the democrats. trying to put out the fire. i'm not saying pelosi, and prying to win their side. grown-ups say stop fighting over this, protect our nation's economy from default and you don't want to join that. you want to join the crazy proest testers. >> terrible thing to say. the motivation of the tea party, whatever you say about these people, it's unpopular what they're doing, getting beat up. standing by their principles. >> they are seeing the economy suffer. >> people are telling -- michele bachmann and steve king saying you don't have to worry about default, because there won't really be any. that's the problem. disillusioned. >> playing fire with other people's lives. party pate tris. >> prices will be paid for this, but not by them. >> okay, pat. otherwise known at mrs. o'leery's cow. just kidding, of course. you are a patriot in our onstrange way, pat buchanan. >> america first. >> oftentimes it has been. the most powerful man americans probably never heard of, grover norquist with the naent tax pledge and republicans hog-tied supporting his pes on the debt fight. let's talk to one of the most powerful men in america. when we come back, grover norquist, when we come back in a moment. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. you name it. i've tried it. but nothing's helped me beat my back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale using the same rigorous clinical testing that's required for prescription pain medications. proven. powerful. safe. salonpas. the president passed over a harvard professor liz whether warren, the driving force behind the bureau's kreegs and supported passionate by many on the progressive left. warren's strong opposition and talk she could run for the senate. heard it myself up in massachusetts against the new senator, scott brown. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] at nissan, we test the altima's durability on a track that simulates the world's toughest roads. ♪ [ tires screeching ] ♪ if it can survive this drive... ♪ it can survive yours. the nissan altima. innovation that lasts. innovation for all. ♪ welcomes back to "hardball." we're quickly approaching the deadline. the unofficial enforceful of no new taxes holding up the deal. grover norquist. thanks for coming on. just to get the people informed about your pledge, we'll read it. we have it now. i pledge to the tax players whatever direct or state to the american people i will, one, oppose any or all efforts to increase the margin 7 income tax rates for business and/or businesses and oppose debt reduction or eliminations or credits unless matched dollar for dollar by further reductions in tax rates. how successful have you been in nailing down republicans in this pledge? >> sure. offering this pledge to candidates for the house and senate and president for the last 24 years. today 235 members of the house have signed the pledge that are sitting in the house of representatives. 41 senators. so a majority of house members and 41 senators. 1,200 state legislators, 13 governors. >> this is the first time it's had sort of the drama as you know. you're probably happy about this. a lot of people aren't happy. explain why you are willing to hold people to this tax pledge even if it means at least between now and early august no deal and, therefore, a possible default? why are you pushing so hard at this point on keeping people to their pledge? >> well, because the pledge, again, it's been around for 24 years and 1990 george herbert walker bush signed the pledge, why he won the republican primary. >> why are you holding them to it now? at this point, facing this critical situation, where many people believe we face a default sometime early in august, or sooner, perhaps, because there's been no deal in raising the debt ceiling. wipe are you holding members of congress to pledged to your organization to rick a default? why are you doing it? >> chris, as you know, because you just read the pledge, the pledge is not to my organization. you just read the fact. >> sure. >> the pledge is to the american people. >> but you wrote it. >> yes. and we offer it to all. it allows them to run for office to make a credible commitment to the american people that he or she won't raise taxes. >> right. >> without the pledge, which is the same wording in all 50 states over the last quarter century. >> sure. >> a promise not to raise taxes is like any other political promise and means nothing. so the strength of the pledge is not that i or others enforce it it's that the voters enforce it because they know what it means. they've seen it. they voted for somebody, as he or she promised to vote for it. the power of the pledge is the power of the american people, not me personally or americans for tax reform, but, rather, that the pledge is not something you can walk away with and say you were misquoted. >> right. you're defining this in a way. dramatized it. i'm getting back to, you've asked people to make an ironclad pledge i don't your organization. written it, gotten people to sign it. who haven't, encouraged to sign in various ways. push pressure in various ways. my question to you, you hold these people in this organization to this pledge. right? your organization holds them to the pledge. not just the american people generally. you, grover norquist, and your organization, right? hold them to the pledge? you personally hold them to the pledge? >> we urge them to keep the pledge. >> right. that's what i'm saying f. people who break the pledge, as george herbert walker bush did. >> i know. let me ask you about the situation we're in now. you are telling people to keep their pledge. right? be honest. you're telling them. >> yes, of course. >> telling them -- >> these people ran for office. >> in the face of a financial default, you're willing to take the heat and say, i urge these people to stick to a pledge which i know will prevent a deal, which allows the debt creeling to go up. just a definition. you agree with what i just said? >> no. i don't think the president of the united states is such a left wing ideologue he would close down the government because he's having a hissy fit he can't get a tax increase. >> a hissy fit? is that how we talk now? a hissy fit? what's that? what's a hissy fit? >> when he says he wants to raise taxes, he'd rather -- you jest said the president would rather close down the government than -- >> no. i'm saying to get a deal between democrats and republicans everyone watching the show knows you need a deal. 4-1, whatever, cutting spending, raising revenue. you're saying no deal, is what you're saying? >> no. a deal which reduces spending and doesn't raise taxes. >> that's the only deal you accept? in other words, nothing that would be agreeable to any of the democrats? >> you're suggesting that the democrats would rather close down the government if they don't get a tax increase i think -- >> no. democrats will agree to a compromise even if it's 4-1 because the president is putting pressure on them. you're saying 4-1 deal isn't good enough for you? >> they agreed not raise taxes and they're not going to raise taxes. >> i've asked five minutes, grover, you're a smart guy and politically aware. will you answer the question, are you happy with this situation that's developed now that because of this pledge that you've arranged people to sign, encouraged them to sign, and they're watchdogging, this pledge will keep a deal from happening between the republicans and democrats, which will allow the debt creeling to go up and avoid default? you're happy with this crisis? >> i disagree with your assumption and assertion. >> tell me how i'm wrong. >> okay. i am glad the taxes will not be raised. >> under any circumstances. >> under any circumstances? >> any circumstances? it's better not to raise taxes, better to have a default than to raise taxes? you said any circumstances? >> it's better to bring spending down than to either have the default or -- >> they're going to bring spending down. both sides agreed. the president is full forced at least a $3 trillion cut as part of a $4 trillion package. you said i don't want the package. i'd rather have default. >> i want the american people to move forward without a tax increase -- >> and have a gault. >> without a default. >> how do you avoid default? if you refuse to raise taxes and the democrats, and rubbens can't make a deke, you've been talking quite well. the democrats and republicans don't reach a deal you're happy with that resolution because it proves your point, people will fight taxes more than they'll fight a default? >> i want an agreement that brings down spending. that's what we're fighting for. >> and no tax increases? >> the -- he would rather close down the government, the president says. >> no. he's put out a proposal. let's get to the facts. the president says he wants a $4 trillion package, perhaps $3 trillion in spending cuts pup say, no deal. right? >> it would be more impressive if he'd write down the spending cuts. he still hasn't put together a budget he can show us. >> because you people are refusing to deal on principle pup said five or six times now, no tax increase under any circumstance. that was your phrase. isn't that what you just said? under any circumstance? >> of course, his taxes are not going to be raced. the problem we have, is too much spending. raises taxes does not solve the problem of too much spending. why would you cut, raise taxes when -- >> let me give you numbers. what percentage of gdp comes in? 16. what's going out 24? reconcile the two. 16 is not, 24 too much in spending if you're only raising 16. your on balanced budget is 18. minimum, you got to raise 2% of revenues and you guy, gdp, you don't want to give him anything. eve ton get back up from 16 to 18, where you say want to end up with your balanced budget amendment. can you meet the terms of your own balanced budget amendment swrp is that unreasonable? >> you know the reason why tax revenues are closer to 16% than the norm 18% is because so many people are out of work. the reason so many people are out of work is that this administration has spent an awful lot of money and wafrted it on stimulus spending. >> you've got all the arguments except the logic. anybody listening knows the arithmetic. revenues are too low for the amount of money committed on spending. >> because of unemployment. >> of course. under your balanced budget amendment, make no allowance for unemployment. it sets a hard core -- >> chris -- >> a ceiling. >> a ceiling of 18%. not a floor. >> of course not. but the fact is you're not providing here for bringing up revenues in any instance. your position, grover to clear this out in. when it gets to july 30th what's your position on revenues? >> on july 30th that we should -- >> no revenue increase? >> i'm in favor of more federal revenues through more federal employment. >> not by an act of congress? >> not by act of congress, of course not. >> august 15th, your position on revenues? >> the economy and cut spending. >> your position as we go deeper and deeper into what everyone in the world recognizes will be perhaps bankruptcy, basically spikes in the interest rate, reduction in bond ratings and everything else, perhaps the bond vigilantes come in and all that happens through august and you're standing fast to say even in the face of that terror you're saying i'm holding my people. i have 41 sflarts. i have 235 house members and they better not budge because i, 2k3wr0e grover norquist said so? >> actually, chris, the american people said so, no me. >> on your document. you wrote it. >> the american people -- >> the american people didn't write it. in every poll, republicans are running 21% in approval because of this stand-fast position you've asserted and prescribe ford them, by the way. be honest. you digs noticed the problem, high taxes and gave your prescription. no new taxes and got 41 guys to go along with it. by the way, what do you do with the ones that don't go along with it? let them go, give them a kiss? no. you go after them and go after them. >> we highlight -- >> this is bad policy. lugar and grassley, real conservatives who don't believe in your approach. what do you do to them? >> they've staked out an opposition to any tax increase. >> not with you. >> not taken the pledge. she haven't signed the pledge. lugar says he hasn't because he wants to go to a retail sales tax and i hope some day we'll be able to explain you can move to a retail sales tax. it doesn't violate the pledge. >> we're in a really, a, looks to me, like a real conflict between you and me on this, because i think we need to deal with this debt ceiling issue. you say deal with the revenue issue, period, under any circumstance? >> deal with the spending issue. the government is spending too much money and needs to spend less. >> the president will reduce spending $3 trillion in exchange for $1 trillion revenue. 2 3-1, your party earned by winning an election. you don't deal, nothing gets done. that's the way politics works. >> raising taxes doesn't help. >> what it does, lower, the deficit and begins to show that american government can work without people like you basically dictating to politician what's they have to sign it avoid your heat. you've been very successful. >> it's the american people that have said that. not americans 20r tax reform. >> we'll see. grover norquist, thanks for coming up. we've cleared up the way people stand right now. i hope i've stopped. >> cut spending, overspending. the only issue, by this administration. >> thanks four coming on's you know i mean it. you know i do. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ♪ that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh ♪ [ male announcer ] introducing mio. a revolutionary water enhancer. add a little...add a lot. for a drink that's just the way you like it. make it yours. make it mio. our girl's an architect. our boy's a genius. we are awesome parents! biddly-boop. [ male announcer ] if you find a lower rate on a room you've booked, we won't just match it. we'll give you $50 towards your next trip. [ gnome ] it's go time. up next, michele bachmann once referred to bondage, despair and enslavement. they're using we are words against her. that's coming up next on "hardball." you're watching it only on msnbc. so me and the boys earned a trip to dc twice as fast! oh hi! we get double miles every time we use our card. and since double miles add up fast... one more chariot please. ...we can bring the whole gang! i cannot tell a lie. he did it. right... it's hard to beat double miles! read my lips -- no new axes! [ male announcer ] get the venture card from capital one, and earn double miles on every purchase, every day. go to capitalone.com. what's in your wallet? so, you're a democrat right? [ mrs. davis ] i want to find a way to break through. to make science as exciting as a video game. i need to reach peter, who's falling behind. and push janet who's 6 chapters ahead. ♪ [ male announcer ] with interactive learning solutions from dell, mrs. davis can make education a little more personal. so every student feels like her only student. dell. the power to do more. as much as i can about a company before i invest in it. that's why i like fidelity. they give me tools and research i can't get anywhere else. their stock screener lets me search for stocks with more than 140 criteria. i can see what their experts are thinking and even call them to bounce an idea off of one of their investment professionals. a good strategy relies on good insight. if you wanted to learn more about a company, i think you'd actually have to be there. i'm hampton pearson with your cnbc market wrap. stocks ending lower but off session los. the dow jones industrial falling 94 points. it had been down about 170 points around noon. the s&p 500 sliding 10. the nasdaq giving up 24. one investor telling cnbc today that it wasn't like uncertainty hi gone away over the weekend. ongoing european debt concerns and a lack of progress in the debt ceiling talks here at home all weighing on stocks today. financials under pressure after barclay the cut its price targets on citigroup and started digging in stress tests on european banks that came out last week. kniss corp. continues to slide with the phone hacking scandal expanding over the weekend, and ibm posting quarterly earnings after the closing bell. share, climbing in after-hour trading on better than expected results and an improved forecast. the tech giant reported double digit increases for hardware, software and services. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." michele bachmann's political star rose in minnesota when she decided to take on same-sex marriage and pushed an amendment to the state to ban it. now she'd like everyone to ignore all that, but gay rights groups say they intend to put bachmann's views on gays and her husband's views front and center in the 2012 presidential race. a friend of mine, president of equality matters and r. clark cooper executive director of log cab cabin -- richard, do you expect to raise this issue again and again, the position of michele bachmann? >> well, we do. i mean, the bottom line is, her views are way oits outside of mainstream of american political thought and american scientific thought. she has a long history of opposing the most basic rights for gay americans. all we want is have the same rights as everybody else but she has a history of scapegoating and using anti-sga rhetoric in a very potentially dangerous way. so we will call attention to it whenever we think it's appropriate. >> i want to get to clark with a quote she gave. here it is. a minnesota state senator how many years ago, michele bachmann said if you're involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, her term, it's bondage. it is personal bondage, personal enslavement. i mean, she make a big distinction between orientation and lifestyle. i'm not sure what that means exactly, clark. are you comfortable with the way she even talks about gay issues politically? >> for starters, let's this orientation, not lifestyle. the point was made in many areas about electability. so doesn't matter where you stand on the political speck traum. a political position regarding the gay community puts herr at fringe with the republican party. i'm not the only -- >> why is she so anti-gay? >> that's a good question. a good question. why is anybody anti-gay? obviously -- >> it's an obsession in terms of her politics. seems to be more than winning votes. i don't know how many she can win, in the movie conservative areas. her husband also seems to be focused intently often this question of reparative therapy. talking about homosexuality on a radio show last year. let's listen in. >> what do you say when your teenager says she's gay? >> there's that curiosity, but, again, it is as if we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that ro road. we have a responsibility as parents and as authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings. >> i mean, chris you know, just listen to that language. that language is like -- from outer space. >> if you even hear about homosexuality you got to run towards it. seems to me people that are gay are gay. though know from from a fairly early age, accept it, try to make the most of it. live a fairly good life, if they can. you know about this. this idea if you hear about it you'll be enticed by it. if a teacher is gay you'll want to join him or her in this orientation. seems it's scare toy people like her and her husband. so scary they've formed this institute to talk people, pray them out of the gay orientation. what do you make of this? i thought this was going away. i thought the american people -- >> it is going away. you know, i do think -- i think it is going away and i think that this, some of this language is a throwback to the old days when, you know, anti-gay rhetoric could be used to excite conservative base voters, and to excite people about particular candidates, but i think that you know, this -- these scare tactics don't work anymore. nissa very mainstream issue. in new york where we got, you know, same-sex marriage through just last month, i mean, it was the republicans. republican caucus in the -- >> yeah. let's not overstate the overwhelming republican push for same-sex marriage, richard. >> there are a lot of main stream republicans for this. >> one example -- >> ted olsen. >> you're right. rir richard, you're across the aisle. here's rudy giuliani questioning the republican party against getting involved in this gay marriage issue. less listen to the former mayor. >> i think that marriage is between a money and woman but i think that republican party would be well advised to get the heck out of people's bedrooms and let these things get decided by states. i don't know what the heck the republican party wants to do getting involved in the people's sexual lives and personal lives. stay out of it. we'd be a much more successful political party. >> my dad used to go to bed worrying about the debt, i do oh tagsly worry about debts bigger than our gdp. on on grover with the idea of spending. i wish hi picked the fight in that. it's his intransgents on the other stuff. straight people going to bed at night worried about gay people? >> no. >> then why think focus here? >> chris, most republicans are worries about overspending in the government. most americans -- >> i do, too. >> most republicans want to address debt, address the size of government. so because most americans and most republicans who are elected to office want to address those broader issues that affect all americans. everybody needs a job. everybody's affected by the economy, and most people want to see resolution to government, you know, lower government spending and address tax reform. that said, when an issue like one's orientation starts to eclipse the dialogue, that any solid fiscal conservative messaging that's out there is lost. it gets lost in the cacophony of any anti-gay rhetoric. there are many -- >> i tell you, i wish it were true republicans had dropped this. i tell you, barack obama, who, you know, has got, you know, not a perfect record, but, boy, i tell you, compared to any of these republicans running today, he looks pretty good. >> one point. i'm gawk oing to watch the republican platform. if it's in, there i'm going to jump on it. if you get rid of it, we'll getty rid of it. i still think they'll jam in this sacredness of marriage and they don't like gays. >> by the way, it is being addressed with the party. so -- barack obama's failed economy. >> here it is -- his position -- got to go. you got your shot and i appreciate it. up next, scotland yard, a sefg nation as the rupert murdoch phone scandal explodes again and again. where were the top police with the murdoch empire? is the same thing happening here? this is "hardball" only on msnbc. texas governor rick perry will decide in the next two weeks whether he'll run for president. he's said he's been called to run. he's getting more and more comfortable that this is what i've been called to do. this is what america needs. those are his quotes. perry talked on session once is holding a prayer event in houston three weeks from now. we'll be right back. 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it's been a mind db-bending story and that's because this is widespread. we are seeing that. this has been an unbelievable 37 hours where you have the top two men in charge of scotland yard resigning. rebekah brooks one of the murdoch's most trusted executives getting arrested and this news journalist has showed up dead. what you are seeing right now is the affect of this web on various facets of society here in this country, including the police force and parliament and the government. david cameron coming under increasingly intense rebuke for his relationships with news corp as well. chris? >> michael wolfe, bring it on home, when you look at this story as you cover it and develop it, what do you make of this thing? andy coalson, the whole thing. he apparently add role here. tell us what you know about this and how it relates it up-to-date here in america? >> it is just extraordinary. when everyone who is involved with this talks about it, they just shake their heads. it is not just 36 hours, it is literally two weeks of the most incredible developments. every one of these, each one of these developments would be -- would be in a normal time headline making for months on end. but there is new developments everyday. >> okay, let's get to the question of the prime minister. was it at the advice of rebekah brooks? did he do it to keep cool and make friends with rupert? >> i will tell you exactly why they did this. they talked about this openly. i have spent time with all of these people, including the prime minister. rupert murdoch did not like david cameron. i have spent lots of time with murdoch mumbling about cameron, what a slickster he is. he liked gordon brown. rebekah brooks, however, likes david cameron and she set out to convince rupert that he ought to go with cameron. and one of the things here, one of the trades was she went to cameron and said, you hire our guy, andy coalson. if do you that, i can help bring rupert around. and she succeeded. >> the prime minister, hired coalson. then the respect or what -- how would you describe how rupert responded to that deal? >> well, actually, rupert responded grudgingly. he still doesn't like david cameron. he actually liked gordon brown. but he felt that if rebekah and his son, james, wanted this, this was their show, he was trying to be hands-off. and plus, he got a man in number ten downing street and that was a victory. >> tomorrow, stephanie, this case is going before a parliamentary committee. you will have his son, james. you have stephanie -- what's her name -- rebekah brooks. they will all be there under oath. will the name jude law come up. who else will come up in this case? jude law has apparently been involved in this. >> first, let me back up a little bit. it is unclear whether they will be under oath in the same way that people are under oath in testimony in congress. but you are going to hear some very pressing questions and difficult questions and what they have all three of them have said is they are going to avoid any question that jeopardizeses the ongoing investigation in scotland yard. so they may be silent on a number of these issues. >> thank you very much. this case is wide open and it just gets bigger. stephanie gosk in london. on top of this. even in defeat some great news about america and women and sports and what men root for these days. it's amazing to watch. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. er you want. one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you. let me finish tonight with grand american sighting. it is what everyone saw yesterday when they went past a restaurant, a bar, any other place there were people and a television. the huge bunch of men mainly cheering the american women soccer team in the world cup. the woops went up every time they scored. the hows every time japan scored a goal. the groups were overwhelmingly men, and not young men by biany means. anyone in this country, especially knows who have kids, know how much girls love the game. in civil rights, girl and women have had an equal shot at sports in school. that's why there is nine times the participation in school by people before the title was past in 1972. here is a more recent statistic. there is more tweeting per second during sunday's match than at any time in human history. people didn't just want to watch