So we begin our show with the raging debate right now about what it means to be american at a time when the line between your politics and your patriotism has begun to blur. Particularly under this american president. Perhaps the biggest ways those lines are blurring are how the president teams e seems to attempt patriotism to mean a certain level of loyalty and love to him. According to mar. Trump, if you dont stand in a fog for him like his state of the union you are not being patriotic. They were like death, and unamerican, unamerican. Somebody says treasonous. Yeah, just, why not . You know. Can we call that treason . Why not i mean they certainly didnt seem to love our country very much. Nothing like yucking it up over treason. According to white house, few dont support his pick for secretary of state, you might not be a patriot. Look, at some point democrats have to decide whether they love this country more than they hate this president they have to put aside the safety and security and diplomacy of our country ahead of their own political gain. Weve also seen this president weaponize patriotism in other ways. Like when he stumped for a political candidate and referred up the base for players that chose to neil because they were protesting Police Brutal it. He fanned those flames and argued those players shouldnt even be in america. You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem or you shouldnt be playing, you shouldnt be there. Maybe you shouldnt be in the country. You have to stand proudly for the National Anthem. And you might remember, he then withdrew his white house invitation a Philadelphia Eagles, falsely accusing oem them of kneeling. They never had a neiler and he had a patriotism event using things like the marine band as a backdrop and humidity along to god police america. By and large the Republican Base has given mr. Trump the loyalty he seeks. And hes turned the party from dictator hater, rule of law abiders to a party that seems to shrug when the president tells them that kim jongun can be trusted. The Justice Department is a criminal deep state and our free press is the enemy of the people. Can you decide whether or not the president has changed what it means to be american or if he has his own definition. Can you not debate what it changes to be a republican. In fact, in some of the most conservative members of the party cant believe it or they dont want to believe it. Its not a good place for any party to ends up with a cultlike situation as it relates to a president that happens to be of purportedly of the same party. What were about as a nation is not being for or against one personally. Again, we are a nation of the laws and as our men of the Founding Fathers said. Our presidency has been debased by a figure who seemingly has a bottomless appetite for destruction and division and only a passing familiarity with how the constitution works. Joined by our fourth of july panel, mooibl michael steel, msnbc chair and kimberly atkins, a msnbc chair and john meacham journalist, author of a great new book. Welcome all. Happy fourth of july. Steel, this is this is a fight going on inside your party there defining patriotism. Look, this is not the first president that wrapped himself in a flag and own it but he does it in such a heavyhanded way. He does it in a heavyhanded way, but i think the way you set the argument at the beginning is how its all about. Its about him. He sets it in terms of his own presence. You are loyal to him. You are loyal to what his efforts, his words are. And that has begun to take its toll inside the party. I think you finds now a number of republicans who are really asking themselves, is this what republicanism is or going to be in the 21st century . Has it changed so much that the very things we once stood for, law and order, not with a stick, but respecting the constitution and the principles that come with that. Are we really profamily, as weve seen over the last few weeks . The struggle on that issue for a lot of republicans. So this president has really pushed the test for republicanism and conservetism for what we thought it was. There are a lot of people that its about time someone put a flag and its about time you know that there was some definition here of what it means to be an american. And thats true. I think what weve seen is the president and some of his supporters weaponize patriotism. Patriotism is something that they say if you dont agree with our views, then you are antiamerican. You are unpatriotic. Its this idea rather than sends us your tired, your poor, and we, the people. Its about me, im the most american of all the groups. So, therefore, these policies should help me and it should not help that other person. Or if i am protesting something that seems as an injustice, label it unpatriotic as with the nba the nfl protests. Despite the fact that Colin Kaepernick chose to neil rather than sit because thats what the soldiers did at other graves of soldiers. He wants it to not be disrespectful. Fallen americans. Its that parallel. So we are seeing the idea of americanism who is american enough . I cant remember in the past where ive gotten so many tweets telling me to go back from where i come from. I go im from detroit. I go back there all the time. Its a nice place. I want to play a piece from the inauguration, paint some historic contexts here, take a listen at the bedrock of our politics will be a total allegiance to the United States of america and through our loyalty to our country, we will rediscover our loyalty to each other. When you open your heart to patriotism, there is no room for prejudice. What did you make of that line . What do you make of it when you hear it . Do you think it rings . Is there dog whistles in there . You know, he doesnt use dog whistles. He uses bullhorns. We can retire that analogy. I think it was an attempt to make a nationalist assertion and then i think they may have heard how it sounded, so they attempted to use kind of a trojan horse for a point. They want a kind of, i think its an elks lodge 1956 kind of patriotism. Its a very sort of right after the red scare patriotism. Right after under god goes into the pledge of allegiance, were under our desks, we are afraid. We used to be afraid of the russians. Its elemental, like so much of trump, there is not a lot of nuance here. I think a lot of us spends a lot of time trying to detect nuance where there isnt any. When he said make America Great again. He meant make it like it was in 1956 again. Which if you look like me and are you a white southern boringly heterosexual man, that was a pretty good time to be alive. If you look like almost anybody else, it was not so great. Whats interesting, the two greatest influences politically were his father and roy cohen, both products. They got success in that 1950s america that you just described. No, i think thats exactly right. When you i love the way you put that, it is so 195657 approach of the world to me, its a reflection of the batty issues hes got this guy is continuously trying to prove loyalty to him as he had to prove loyalty to his father and hes always pushing back on those who told him he couldnt, just as his father told him, he couldnt build manhattan, you couldnt do this. So were caught up in this warped view of patriotism, this warped view of what america is. Which is not a reflection of whats really happening on the ground, how this country is browning. How it is becoming less white. And thats not a negative thing. Thats just a process thing. Look, the politics is tricky. I remember barack obama, he wanted to stand strong. He wasnt going to get a flag pinl. He thought why is it if you dont wear a flag pin. It means you are patriotic, sometimes it werent. He decided im not going to fight that fight and wore a flag pin for basically the rest of his presidency. Thats true. He picked that battle then in order to not be create an issue that it would be dwiefs, that would become a wedge. President trump on the other hand lives to create wedges, to be divisive. You talked about this 50s era idea of patriotism. Its that on steroids because the division that it is fueling is so strong. The 1950s, you saw things like labor unions doing things that helps people of color. That helps people collectively get ahead more. You are not seeing that now. You are saying i want mine, therefore, for me to get mine, you cant have yours. I cant wonder how much is driven with trump and this patriotism thing is just a sole reactionary aspect. I want to play Michelle Obamas famous quote of hers. At the time it was probably the first and last time she spoke her mind politically. Take a listen. For the first time in my adult lifetime, im really proud of my country and not just because barack has done well, but because i think people are hungry for change. And i have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction. John meacham when she said this, there was this human uproar, it became this thing, how could you not do that . That was from white america. Anybody who wasnt white understood exactly what she meant by that. It was not disrespectful to america, in her mind, she was giving america another compliment. Absolutely. The other thing thats going on here is there is a confusion i think between nationalism and patriotism. When contended confusion maybe. There is not a lot of nuance there maybe bonnannon understan that. This is not a conversation wed have at maralago to say the least. Patriotism is a love of vernacular. Patriotism is a love of country. It can be a sentimental attachment. Its quite ream. Nationalism is the aassociation of your nation your own tribes interest above all in the border global struggle. And thats what trump is. Hes a nationalist who speaks in patriotic terms. Hes not the first. He wont be the last. Remember the flag pins came into popular use under nixon. Nixon was the first one to wear them. Because it was a way of saying to the age ofaayre kwus aquarius, im archie bunker. Ill take mine off. People forgot in the pledge of allegiance, it was the late 50s. It was in some ways reactionary to those times. It was. And thats a very good jumpoff point from that moment where we add under god to reagans compromise in the 1980s campaign where heped the majority to become a part of the political process, because there was one way he could fight back against the establishment at that time that did not like him. We saw that play out in the 76 campaign. We have america sort of moving into this space i think where populism, nationalism, patriotism, and faith sort of align themselves and became part of the body politic in a way that was expressed by elected officials on the campaign trail via nixon and as we see by this president today in the oval office. You know one of the other things i think blurs this, probably made the president comfortable doing the nfl attack is how much sort of our public life where we sort of were, particularly in the sporting world, where they usually throw certain patriotic things at the entire audience. Everybody has to participate in this. Is it numbing people to it . I always wondered, is it not helping the cause of patriotism in some ways, in the ways that we shove it into things like sporting events and recreation and ways that feel, that cause problem problems . Its a theological point that has an expression in the soes logical issue you are raising, which is if you have to compel something, its not a part of the culture. The reason we have free will in theological terms is because the creator, if he just created us and said, you have to follow me, there is no other choice that takes the fun out of it. I this toy some extent, i love going to Football Games and baseball games. I love the Football Games and 7th inning stretch. Its all great. Whenever you can have kate smith involved in anything, its just good. But if its compulsory, then you are removing the action of a scent and the prime factor. Its a decision, you have to stands up when the allegiance is played or the anthem is played. That is that compulsion. That says you have to do eight certain way. I think you have to add the extra layer here, that who is the president compelling to do something . It is these players, these players that are largely people of color and it leads to the same, he, himself, says that that aspect plays to the same base as his zero tolerance policy at the border crossing. Its the president , himself, that put those things together. It shows the president s view of america is not one that includes fully or respects people of color and you they lot of people of color july 4th which is already a fraught holiday for us it is a reminder. I will pause the conversation here. Up ahead on this independence day, the battle over taking a stands the nfl is now cracking down on players who neil for protests. Could that just ends up encouraging more protests. In honp nor of july 4th throughout the show today, we will bring you holiday greetings from some u. S. Service members serving abroad. Hi, im specialist Alexander Campbell wishing you a happy fourth of july. Hi, im first class Christopher Lamotte in average id like to send out a special shout out to my wife christina and our kids. Id like to wish everyone a happy fourth of july. Go dodgers raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens brown paper packages tied up with strings these are a few of my favorite things these are a few of my favorite things ive been making blades here at gillette for 20 years. Theres a lot of innovation that goes into making americas 1 shave. Precision machinery and highquality materials from around the world. Nobody else even comes close. Now starting at 7. 99. Gillette. The best a man can get. Mitzi Psoriatic Arthritis tries to get in my way . Watch me. mike ive tried lots of things for my joint pain. Now . 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Thats why Xfinity Mobile lets you pay for data one gig at a time. And with millions of wifi hotspots included, youll pay less for data. Its a new kind of network designed to save you money. Click, call or visit a store today. Certainly the president has been very clear his position is in regards to the National Anthem. Weve never wavered on that. The president thinks that people should stand for the National Anthem, particularly when it comes to the nfl. Its not about a particular team. Its about having pride in our country and about being respectful to the men and women who have fought and died to preserve our country. Welcome back. As we have been talking about sports and particularly the nfl having increasingly become a battlegrounds and the politicalization of patriotism, because of the protests that began two seasons ago when Colin Kaepernick began protests minorities in the United States. Other teams soon followed his lead. Last month, President Trump used the anthem protest as a part of his justification for can selling a celebration for the super bowl champion with the Philadelphia Eagles when they were supposed to visit the white house. And President Trump guaranteed theyd stop for the anthem the nfl decided that all players who were on the field must stand or their team will be subject to a fine. Players will have the option of staying in the locker room. Recently i spoke to a Senior Writer at espn. Com and nbc Sports Correspondent and author of the heritage black athletes and the politics of patriotism. I started asking him about the new rules and this quote unquote compromise that seems to be a recipe for more protests. This is a recipe for disaster. It appears the nfl has simply decided to engage in the culture wars that the president started back in september when he called the players s. O. B. S and Colin Kaepernick, in particular. When that happened last year, the owners and the players came together because they recognize their business was in a little bit of trouble. Remember, you had jerry jones taking a knee last year with other owners in solidarity with the players. Then on top of that you have the players making a deal with ownership last december that they were going to collaborate and partner on social justice and so they ratified that deal a couple days ago and then the owners come back with this . I talk to players. I talk to people in the Players Association who told me that this is fuel. Instead of this being over, its just beginning. Is this with a lack of leadership by Roger Goodell . Are there a handful of owners that just are handcuffing him . To me, a good leader, somebody who has control of their organization would have said the following, mr. President , we appreciate your point of view on this, we here also love the flag and love this country. You worry about the country. Well worry about the league. We appreciate your input. And then end of story. Why cant Roger Goodell, why doesnt he have that kind of sway within the nfl. There is a couple reasons, lets not forget the nfl owners who gave mo into the campaign. Lets not forget how afraid the nfl owners seem to be of the president when he went after the players last year. I believe they are definitely pandering. I think this is that culture war conversation that we have been having for the last couple of years on this which is positioning the player as unpatriotic. Runs counter to the nfl Business Model. I believe they can profit off this. I think they sort of recognize that they have a leverage in terms of labor in pushing the players in this unpatriot irk corner, making the public believe that theyre not citizens. Mike pence within hours of this announcement, he simply retweeted a story about it. Winning. I would assume even the nfl owners who wanted to make this decision would have begged the Vice President , what are you doing . Stop it. Now youve just made the policy even harder to sell. That goes back to one of the things this whole book is about, chuck, you and i talked about this over the last couple of years, who gets to be american . Are we using sports in Roger Goodell said earlier about not wanting the flag to be disrespected. He wants it to be respected. However, how can you say the flag is being respected in the nfl when teams are charging the department of defense to have these patriotic displays in the first place they politicizing the sport. Yet, all we do is talk about black players. On the one hand this is more pandering. Weve seen this playbook before. Its like the packers suite. First welfare queens, then willie horton, now were talking about ball players. Its the same old playbook organizing the base at the expense of black players its interesting its being supposedly couched as a business decision. A democratic pollster i frequently have on the show, he was on yes, he was on meet the press recently, he did a survey in africanamericans in battleground states, 35 said they watched less football because Colin Kaepernick remained unsigned. That was back in march he did this. This idea of the nfl owners, do they think their fans are only white and only conservative . Well, thats one of the things, when i heard about this yesterday, two things came to mind the first was this is a shot at labor to see if the nfl players are unified and to find out how much they are willing to fight for these things they say they believe in. Its also a shot at the black consumer and the message being sent is, watch our game. Spend on our game and keep your mouths shut. So were going to find out just how much, how offended the black consumer is and what theyre willing to do as well. The other thing i think there is a fear of that people are sort of social justice warriors watching here is this concern that if you have this sort of choice of standing for the flag and suddenly there is a color dissparity, the white players are out the black players in the locker room, look, white players have to probably be a buffer here i guess between owner and africanamerican players. Whats your sense of that . How are they going can player unity overcome racial dissparity . This is the area, chuck, where the nfl Players Association has amazing opportunity. Theyve got an opportunity to get those players together and say, look, we dont care about your politics here, we already have concurrent collusion lawsuits that the nfl owners are telling you, we will deny your employment. We are going to humiliate you. If you guys dont come towing. We dont care about your politics. When it comes to messing with us, we stick together. Well see what they do about that. It seems like the chris longs of the world, he spoke up forcefully, aaron rogers in the past has. In some ways the Players Union needs them to be the spokesperson, no . They do. This is a labor issue. When you look at this story in my book, when you look at the heritage in general over the last 50 or 60 years, there are very few white players who stood up and said, look, i stands with my teammates the big challenge will take place right now. Up ahead, are you tired . Are you depressed . Do you feel like you cant deal with a nonstop news cycle . Well, you may be suffering from news fatigue. I think i have something that can help. First, another page from our troops serving abroad on this fourth of july. Hello, everyone, my name is samantha jefferson, im in the United States air force currently diemployed in south korea at osan airbase. 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It is the Fastest Growing nonparty if you will. A new poll identifies them. And what is more american than declaring your independent independence . Right. Even with all those people claiming to be nrnths a collective 94 of voters chose clinton or trump. Third Party Candidates only got about 6 collectively. So the two major parties remain dominant, despite vote, claiming that i dont identify with either of them. Some managed to win federal elections. Recently i spoke with senator angus king, one of two members of congress. I began asking him why he and Bernie Sanders are the only ones who successfully bucked the official party system and why there arent more elected independents who chose to caucus with one side or the other. Where he told us. I think its the mechanics of our election system, chuck. Its very hard to get on the ballot in many places. Its the whole system is established under the auspices of the two parties. The other piece, though, is, i think it goes to my history the hardest thing for an independent is to convince the voters that you are for real and that its a viable choice and theyre not wasting their vote. And in my case, we had an independent governor elected in maine in 1974. 20 years before i ravenl it made it thinkable few see what i mean. If i had been running out of the blue as an independent in pennsylvania or arizona or some place, i dont think it would work. Although, i think were getting to the place where if people are willing to make that just, i think theyll find a fertile ground. Its interesting, Jessie Ventura in 19 nation, at the time he used a new fangled device email to sort of circumvent the problem that he had of getting Expensive Television ads, all of those things the barrier to entry for candidates now, thanks to the internet and to direct communications is so much lower. It still hasnt gotten contagious. Let me ask it this way. I think ive asked you this question before, one of the ways i think to increase your power and the power of independents, center right, center left folks. If there were six or eight of you in the United States senate that always said, you know what, well decide which party is responsible enough to be in the majority. We want to be the majority maker. What would that power look like to you . Well, you know, ive heard that discussed. Particularly with the senate as carefully balanced as it is now, you could have three or four people that could play that role. The real question would be, how would the parties react if three or four or six of us got together and said, okay, we will work this, nothing happens unless we are on board, one way or the other. The question then is, what did Chuck Schumer and Mitch Mcconnell do . Does Mitch Mcconnell say you want to play that game . You are no longer a chair of a committee. There is all kind of internal institutional rules. I think thats the problem. I think those of us that are in the middle. I certainly consider myself one. We can still play an Important Role without the kind of raw power you are talking about. That is working back and forth. Now, quite often, people come to me from both sides and say, you know, help us get to the other side on this and make a bridge and lets get something done. Whats the problem with our current Political Polarization system . One thing we argue we dont have ideological diversity between the two major parties. It sounds like you are arguing, thats just left. Thats why some on the right may leave soon because of whats happening there that you are not allowed to be, to have diverse opinions within that tent. Thats right. Is that the is the bigger rob in politics is there is not enough room for more independents or the two parties astra size those that may have o ostracize those that may have an independent streak . I think its the latter. The problem is the republicans are becoming more conservative the democrats are becoming more liberal and if you are in a postate that had a variance with one of the ten napts from either side tenants from either side, are you drummed out of the core. I think thats the problem with our politics. If you look at the charts back to the 70s and with 80s of overlap. There used to be a huge amount of overlap in the senate and the house. In the senate, it was probably 20 votes, more conservative democrats, now there is literally no overlap. Visually, i describe it as two nag net magnets pushing itself away now. You, manchin, collins, your lines dont cross anymore. It used to cross. You are right. Chuck, you are a student of this heres the most Dangerous Development in american politics we are living through right now. It used to be you could win or lose on issues on abortion immigration, education, whatever. That was what the voters decided on and, of course, who you were. Now you can lose an election, particularly a primary because you are viewed as someone who is willing to compromise and try to solve problems. And if you think about that, man, thats really dangerous. If you will be penalized for being reasonable. That itself a bad spot. I got to ask you, Choice Voting. State of maine, the arguments that my pal over at the fair voting, who is a big activist, a guy rod richie. He always says, you preach about wanting to have more parties have more access to more candidates. He thinks rarpg Choice Voting in maine, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, fourst actually a way to empower more Political Parties and more independent candidates. Do you buy snit. I think it may be. I dont know about more Political Parties or independent candidates. It leaves voters with more options. They dont have to make an agonizing choice between is this person going to make it . Am i wasting my vote . Its an instant runoff if the three candidates you vote one, two, three. The bottom candidate, their second place vote gets applied until somebody gets a pa majority. I think, you know, its an experiment. Its rung all over the country in cities. Were the first state to adopt it. Yes, you are. I think its will be an important reform that will allow a more, a sort of broader participation the other thing, chuck, thats really interesting about it. If you want your opponents 2nd place votes, it tends to make you more civil. You dont want to dump on your opponent with negative ads because you want their voters to give you the 2nd place. Thats a kind of hidden benefit that we will watch play out over the next ten years. One more hidden benefit. If we do extrapolate this out to our president ial campaigns all over the country, it will make exit polls useless for calling election, which is a good thing. Instead, exit polls will be actually used for what they should be done for, which is, why did people vote the way they voted . Anyway, senator angus king. Thank you. Chuck, from somebody ha know, happy independence day. Fair enough. Up ahead, can independents break the midterms . Well discuss that next. Hi, im currently deployed to kandahar afghanistan. I want to give you a special shout out to my family. Happy fourth of july and i love you and ill see you when i get home. Crest gum detoxify works below the gum line to neutralize harmful plaque bacteria and help reverse early gum damage. And, now theres new crest gum enamel repair. It gives you clinically proven healthier gums and helps repair and strengthen weakened enamel. Gum detoxify and gum enamel repair, from crest. Gums are good, so is my checkup crest. Healthy, beautiful smiles for life. This endangered species is getting help from some unexpected friends. These zebra and antelope. Theyre wearing iot sensors, connected to the ibm cloud. When poachers enter the area, the animals run for it. 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Other side effects are sudden kidney problems, genital yeast infections, increased bad cholesterol, and urinary tract infections, which may be serious. Taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you have any medical conditions. Man ask your doctor about jardiance and get to the heart of what matters. Its time now for the lid the panel is back. So im always obsessed spending on the fourth of july trying to decide why more voters identify as independent. Its not there. Obviously, angus king brought up the system is designed, it punishes almost anybody not in it. It seems as if the public is demanding Something Different than these parties are offering. They are, i think of it as a universal life issue. More and more couples go online and gets ordained in about 30 seconds. Its a part of a generational shift, too, about religious affiliations. The rise of the nuns. Nes. It will be fascinating to see. I think it is a 20year question. I do think its much more of a state and a congressional thing. The Electoral College makes a third party almost impossiblen. Look, we did have two nearly successful independent candidates. They just ran in the two major parties. They did. They ran inside the party but use of it. So they were able to so that i think to fed that beast for a lot of voters out there, this independence streak. But i still think the landscape is an opportunity for independents to catch hold. I think what needs to happen is at the grass roots council, may legislature, because thats your future governor, senator, congressman, eventually president. Youve got to train voters to vote a certain way. In other words, they got used to voting for independent candidates before they chuactua organized that. There are road tests in tennessee, for instance, where i live, in county in nashville, nonpartisan elections. Everybody knows theyre democrat or republican but run in a nonpartisan way. And theres also money. Its very, very difficult to have the finances to run any sort of independent campaign and really compete with the twoparty system. I think whatever changes have to take place have to take that into consideration. Where will this independent money come from . Actually, my assumption has been, though, it goes to the first answer angus gave. As both parties get pulled to their bases, right . There is going to be this vacuum. Yeah. Thats it. Its going to get filled by something. My theory, three or four senators leave their respective parties and then sort of that thats how this gets off the ground. Right . Lets say you had susan collins, joe manchin, you know, throw in a joe donnelly and say a lisa murkowski. Those four plus your angus an interesting piece. They convert once there. Thats right. Interesting question. Because they are center, left center, right and afraid of their party. In ways dont they want to get out from under being punished for not being purist they might convert while there all palsy when together but still have to go back to their state to win. Win only 40 . The beauty. Lisa murkowski figured it out. Thats a oneoff deal. I understand. The point, answering kimberlys point. How do you do it . Take somebody already elected in ways. Still have to bring the voters around. 40 doesnt get you across the finish line. I always say, its hard to be moderate and radical. Yeah. And yet were going to hit a point, kimberly, where people are going to go, wait a minute. I dont agree with everything on the left and i dont agree, but i want a piece of that and a piece of that. Whos going to give me that . People are already there but afraid of throwing away their vote. Afraid the system isnt going to work. Sometimes they just stay home. It has to be a radical system change to make room for the moderates once again to figure out a way to make that happen. One of the biggest things i think thats happened and a good fourth of july point because of truman. Harry truman in an interview talked one of the things he worried most about, the moment when liberals and conservatives totally separated into the separate parties. Thats what happened. Exactly. Uhhuh. I say. I miss the days when the conservative democrats and the new england republicans worked with each other. Right. And republicans are now democrats. Conservative democrats now republicans and you know, now republicans work you have your western republicans state r republican and midwest think about it. Dukakisbenson ticket. Liberal conservatives, liberal conservatives, both cases. And reagan could not win respective primaries today. Thats the new reality. And john mccain said one of his great regrets is funny hes walking a line when it comes to sarah palin. Not that he regrets picking sarah palin but not trying to pick Joe Lieberman and that would have blown up the republican party. You look back and go, wow. What if . A very powerful what if moment. It tells you, someone like john mccain and others around him, there was a space to think about doing that but not enough space to do it. What youre talking about, how do we create that space so the next senators, group of senators, get together and actually do it . Youre right. You have to push the envelope. Push people into it but have something there for them to land on once do you that. Michael bloomberg, interestingly enough, was probably the one person, had the money. A lot of people thought hed be a person, run independent. Hes basically thrown in the towel that you can run as an independent. Now helps democrats trying to win control of congress. Frankly, from people ive talked to close to him, if he runs for president hell do so as a major party because he doesnt think he can do so any other way. A pollster, and done this as a businessman. Can i do it . Whats the key to his Business Model . Data. Kevin spent a lot of time with these numbers. Yeah. The mayor, former mayor, would say what he doesnt want is, the line in his obituary to be he enabled someone else to become president. I think he thinks he can get a plurality. Get 40 but not to 270. I just get the sense, k kimberly, johns first point. An independent streak out there, not wanting to identify with any group, the way millennials feel, its inevitable well have more choices. The question what does it look like . Exactly. You have to wait to see. We are all reacting to the last election. The exact opposite. Right . Focusing on a very specific part of the electorate as opposed to considering the future and what the electorate would want and how its going to change. Thats something both parties have to reckon with as they consider to have their own afraid of that. The parties are very afraid of it. All right, guys. Didnt solve it but declared a little independence. Well be right back. 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With an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brainhealth supplement in drug stores nationwide. Prevagen. The name to remember. Well, thats all for tonight. A big thanks to michael, kimberly and john for being here. Big happy fourth of july from all of us at mtp daily. Enjoy this eindependence day an see you right back here tomorrow. Good morning, and welcome to a special Holiday Edition of morning joe. Oh, ho, ho. Merry christmas. How was christmas . My christmas was great. Im full from a Big Christmas dinner. Oh, the turkey. Whew. Remember when did that and everyone didnt know we were joking . Happy hanukkah, everybody. Happy fourth of july. Were on tape this morning. And remember, lets make sure that today we remember what labor day is actually about. Oh, my lord. Okay. So were on tape this morning, but are enjoying our special edition of morning joe. With us, New York Times reporter jeremy peters. And did you notice they only give