Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline White House 20201125

Year that it could all get much, much wore, potentially worse than ever, if americans dont hield the guidance of the experts and stay home, stay socially distanced and wear a mask. Heres dr. Anthony fauci this morning with one final plea ahead of the holiday. Sacrifice now could save lives and illness and to make the future much brighter as we get through this, because george, were going to get through this. Vaccines are right on the horizon. If we can just hang in there a bit longer and continue to do the simple mitigation things that were talking about. The one thing we do not want is if we get a surge now, george, over thanksgiving, well have that slope up plateau and then slope up again that well see in three weeks. That is the clear message from the medical community today, a message that, if it were up to joe biden, wouldnt be concerned controversial at all. Might even be considered patriotic, if only politics and Donald Trumps boundless obsession with clinging to power hadnt gotten in the way of s s science. But in hopeful remarks today ahead of the Holiday Weekend, joe biden reasures the nation it is not too late to put each other first. I know the countrys grown weary of the fight. We need to remember, were at war with the virus, not with one another, not with eachor. This is the moment where we need to steel our spines, redouble our efforts and recommit ourselves to the fight. So, hang on. Dont let yourself surrender to the fatigue, which i understand, it is real fatigue. I know we can and we will beat this virus. Americas not going to lose this war. Well get our lives back. Life is going to return to normal, i promise you, this will happen. This will not last forever. So, yes, its been a really hard year, particularly hard for over 250,000 people and their families. But i still believe we have much to be thank. For theres so much to hopeful. Much to build on. Much to dream of. A plea for national unity, even as donald trump remains fixated on sewing divisions. And though the 2020 election is completely over, has been for weeks now, you wouldnt know that from the look of trumps twitter feed. A full threequarters of trumps tweets have been aimed at undermining the election results. And today, as a chorus of local officials and scientists across the country came out in force to call for pandemic safety ahead of thanksgiving, donald trump today dialed into a hearing on the election in gettysburg, pennsylvania. Thats his attorney, jenna ellis, holding an iphone up to a microphone. Trump spoke on the iphone projected into the microphone about the election as if under the delusion that it was somehow still ongoing somewhere. The president spreading disinformation about voter fraud in a race hes already lost. Joe biden picking up the mantle as an otherwise leaderless nation plunges deeper into crisis. That is where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. Jonathan lemire is here. Also joining us, nbc and msnbc dr. Irwin red letter is with us. And robert gibbs is back, former White House Press secretary. Robert, i heard president elect biden Say Something that i know is so important for girding the public, any public, for a long battle, for a long war and it goes back to is things american president s said during world war ii, after 9 11, he said, we will win this war. And it was so striking to me that instead of saying, we are not at war or this doesnt actually suck, he said, i see what you see, but were going to beat it. It is such a stark difference in how the next president , the new president , the president elect, will communicate with the American Public. Yeah, nicolle, i was struck listening to it. It really does remind you of this idea that you dont pick the moment, the moment picks you as a leader. And i think for this moment exactly. In our time, i think joe biden is that perfect leader, to remind us first in that speech, the empathy, the understanding of what its like to sit at that thanksgiving table with the open chair and to be one with all of those families that have lost somebody this year. But then, to give us hope on the back end that we know theres light at the end of the tunnel and hope is on the way, because i know we understand that between that point and now is going to be a long winter. And our case load, were seeing 170,000 cases a day on average over the last seven days, 2,000 died yesterday, 88,000 hospital itzed, theres a long slog left to go even as were tired. And i think its important, probably now more than ever, to have that consistent public communication around this virus and around our health and security, now really more than ever. You know, doctor, i want to spend some time talking about where we are and the concerns where we could be if people dont do the right things this weekend and in the coming weeks, but i want to get your perspective from a medical perspective and a science perspective, because when you Start Playing president elect biden and tony fauci, youre no longer making the point, look at these two discore dance messages going out to the public, no wonder they are confused. You are now hearing a president and tony fauci, the worlds preeminent Infectious Disease expert, saying the same thing, encouraging the people to do the same thing and i wonder what you think the impact of that will be. Yeah, so, its actually an amazing thing to hear, nicolle. And i think its really a preview of what were going to be experiencing as a country, after january 20th, which is a unified message thats informed by science, delivered by incredibly articulate people and this is something we are completely, you know, not used to. Were used to lack of transparent si, dishonesty, outward, open public fighting between the Public Health experts and the president. Its been a crazy eight months now, nicolle, and i think everyone is aware of that. And i think were going to be in for a very positive surprise come january 20th, although i will say this doesnt mean that were going to have an automatic panacea thats going to end this thing. But what we do have is ta real lead theirats going to tell use truth and get the country unified behind what we need to do now to save lives. Were in a crisis. This is like world war ii. We lost 407,000 soldiers and military officials in world war ii, 58,000 in vietnam, 4 1 2 times less than, fewer than what weve lost already in the pandemic. Were going to reach world war ii levels of fatalities before the end of this crisis, this war, as its been expressed. And i think thats the banner around which were going to unify. Impossible under trump, possible and very likely under joe biden and his Incredible Team that hes assembling, nicolle. And jonathan, ive given up asking why none of this moves donald trump, i mean, i you know, as you all know, we eulogize someone who has lost their life every single day and i have no idea what political party, any single one of them, belongs to, they were all alive nine months ago before this pandemic came to this country and swept with people not wearing masks, people not social distancing, and people doing things, some all the right things, but many feeling confused by these messages. And i wonder if theres anyone does mike pence think this doesnt have any liability of his political future, that he was awol . Well, the Vice President , you know, does express some moments of somberness when it comes to this pandemic. More than the president , but that is, of course, a low bar to clear. President trump certainly has never done that. He has always struggled to show any sort of empathy. That was true of disasters that took place prior to the pandemic, whether it was a hurricane or a mass shooting and it certainly hasnt changed any now, where hes spared very few words for those who have died, thosesuffered, those who have lost family members. That hasnt been where his mantra has been at all. He deemed himself at one point a wartime president when it came to this pandemic and that lasted about a day. And then he moved on again. And hes been a relentless cheerleader to the point where hes been dishonest with the American People about how bad things were. And night after night on the campaign trail claiming that the nation was rounding the corner. We certainly that is not the case and it was a very different tone from joe biden today. But right now, as the virus is at its worst yet, as more americans are dying to it now than ever before, the president s concern is not that. He is, indeed, only concerned about his own election, saying today, we have to turn this election around, which is not only completely incorrect and impossible, the election is over, but still a dangerous statement, one for his followers who perhaps would question the legitimacy of joe biden and who knows what steps they may take here in the weeks ahead. You know, robert gibbs, i appreciate jonathan will mere playing it straight, but of course donald trump knows he lost. Donald trump is such a hideous loser that hes trying to thwart any potential for joe biden to be a successful president , so, he is poisoning the mind, poisoning the landscape, among his millions of supporters, and i you know, i know a lot of our viewers are desperate for us to ignore trump and we largely do, but there is not a president who has come into the white house with someone like donald trump working actively and using his still large platform to undermine his legitimacy. I want to show you something joe biden said about our democracy and i think its an effective way to respond without engaging. I want to hear what you think. Lets watch first. What should we give thanks for this season . Well, first, lets be thankful for democracy itself. And listen, in this last election, the one that just took place, weve seen record numbers of americans exercise their most s sacred right, that of the vote, to register their will at the ballot box. Think about that. In the middle of a pandemic, more people voted this year than have ever voted in the history of the United States of america. Over 150 Million People cast a ballot. Simply extraordinary. Our democracy was tested this year. And what we learned is this the people of this nation are up to the task. In america, we have full and fair and free elections. And then we honor the results. The people of this nation and the laws of the land, wont stand for anything else. So, we may have chosen democracy, but for the next 60 days, were going to have to live with whatever trump serves up and while we were listening to president elect biden, news broke that donald trump has pardoned mike flynn. Mike flynn, of course, was Donald Trumps First National security adviser. Mike flynn has been pardoned, granted a full pardon, after pleading guilty twice to lying to the fbi. Of all the sordid tales of trumps presidency, this one might take the cake. Mike flynn, the countrys National Security adviser, had conversations with Russian Ambassador kislyak. They were conversations that when confronted by two fbi agents inside the west wing of the white house during the first week or ten days of trumps presidency, he lied about. He was later charged and convicted of lying. Bill Barrs Justice Department intervened in the sentencing phase, sought to have the case dismissed. Judge sullivan held his ground. This whole case was under review before the Legal Process could wind its way through and justice be served, donald trump, moments ago, announcing that he has granted Michael Flynn, who was convicted of lying to the fbi, a full pardon. Jonathan will mere, we night this might be coming, we know donald trump likes the power to pardon, theres some reporting hes looking at a pardon for lots of other people. I wonder what your sense is about what else donald trump has up his sleeve. Yeah, youre right, nicolle, this is, in some ways, both stunning and yet not surprising at all. This has been rumored for awhile, particularly talk as we have reported in the last couple of days, the president said this is something he wanted to do, he wanted to reward flynns loyalty. Flynn was, of course, not just his National Security adviser, though for less than a month, as you just detailed so effectively, but he was an attack dog for the president. It was Michael Flynn who started the lock her up chants for Hillary Clinton during the 2016 national convention. Hes become a cult hero to those on the right, particular the extreme on the right, including those in the qanon conspiracy group. And there are people around the president looking for this to happen for quite some time. And you are right. The power of the president ial pardon is one that this president has really fallen in love kw. Hes had a flurry, used them in flurries before and as we have reported, has been telling people around him that he plans to use it quite a bit more in the days and weeks ahead, you know, for the cast of characters that have surrounded him in the white house, who have, in the campaign, who have got in trouble, but other allies. And it just raises questions, nicolle, and we simply dont know the answers just yet as to how far he will go. Let me add to our conversation on this breaking news that donald trump has, moments ago, announced, i think via tweet, do we have the tweet, control room . Yes, tweet. Donald trump has announced via tweet that hes pardoned mike flynn. Im going to bring in frank figliuzzi, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. Let me read this to you. This is how we learned that donald trump tweeted this, quote, it is my great honor, capitalized mysteriously, to announce that general michael t. Flynn has been granted a full pardon. Also capitalized. Congratulations to general flynn and his wonder. Family. I know you will now have a truly fantastic thanksgiving. Frank fig lieu si, donald trump pardoning Michael Flynn, who was convicted of lying to the fbi about, what else, conversations with the russians. It was never suszed out, even as he pleaded guilty twice in front of judge sullivan, who told him to lie or why he lied, one of the enduring mysteries of the trump era. So, couple of thoughts, nicolle. While this doesnt surprise anybody, heres the deal. Within the trump orbit, pardons go and will continue to go to the guilty and the silent. And Michael Flynn has been both. Pleading guilty to lying to the fbi and silent about what he knows, particularly about russia engagement with the campaign and with trump. It also serves the trump narrative to keep doing this and to pardon flynn because trump has been saying all along that the system is rigged against him. The Justice System has it in for him. So, the more he can do to subvert the Justice System, show that he thinks theres fallacies to be and flaws to be exposed, the more hell do it. And were going to see that more in the next few weeks as trump has just waning days to kind of right the system in his mind and take care of himself by taking care of others by saying the systems rigged, im the only one that can do it right, heres how this works. You know, and frank, if you pair the pardon of mike flynn with the come ewation of roger stones sentence, and we understand that a full pardon for roger stone is also a possibility for trumps final days in office, what you have, it seems to me and i wonder what your thoughts are, are two of the key figures who did the dirty work, if you will, in terms of coordinating with and being in contact with russia. What does that look like if we werent talking about that you are sort of beating the dead horse that is donald trump and his never disclosed explanation for his affinity for Vladimir Putin . Yeah, i think it furthers the gut feeling we all have, based on the evidence thats been exposed in the in the special counsel inquiry and elsewhere, that the president has something to hide. He has something to obstruct and essentially, these pardons are yet another form of obstruction of justice. Rewarding people for their silence and saying, i expect you to remain silent, because of these pardons. Youre going to see people not pardoned for the very same reason, which is that theyve spoken out. So, i had a lengthy conversation just a couple of days ago, with the former trump attorney Michael Cohen. And this topic of pardons came up, nicolle, and theres bitterness there with Michael Cohen, no surprise, because he doesnt expect to get pardoned because he did the right thing and the wrong thing in trumps eyes. You know, robert gibbs, are you still with us . Yes. I want to bring you in on this idea of donald trump wanting to do right by mike flynn. I mean, the entire relationship with jim comey went south and became so toxic and ultimately unsustainable and donald trump kept himself on a war footing with his fired fbi director for years and still, for the single reason that jim comey would not do as donald trump asked him to do and see to it to let mike flynn go. The quote was, hes a good guy, id like you to see to it to let him go. So, the pardoning, or the attempt to excuse from scrutiny and punishment, began, i think, 25, 30 days into his presidency. What, in your view, did mike flynn and the mike flynn conviction, the mike flynn lies about the conversation with kislyak, what did it always signal to you . Well, i mean, as you stated earlier, its it spoke to some sort of coverup. I mean, Michael Flynn lied, not just to fbi agents, but remember, mike pence, he lied to the Vice President. That was one of the last straws before they walked him out of the white house, so, you know, youre struck by the fact that this is somebody who is being pardoned who plead guilty who admitted to the Vice President that he lied to him and it just sort of speaks to, you know, i think its kind of a perfect fouryear arc, if you will, of the embodiment of what the Trump Presidency has come to be and i cant help but think of the jud juxtaposition of today. Somebody today addressed the nation with flags at their side, with what looked like the seal behind them and you had somebody speaking over the speakerphone of an iphone held up by one of his lawyers as he pardoned somebody who plead guilty almost four years age. Its remarkable, were in that period of transition, but we have one person who is president and we have the other person who is acting like president. Well, jonathan, its such a great point. Donald trump, who, in his own mind, is great at television production, is producing himself to look like a twobit criminal. I mean, as robert gibbs just said, hes calling in on a phone in this horrifically produced stunt and all of his lawyers, public events, have been total losers, theyve been panned by tucker carlsson, for petes sake, and he doesnt seven hes really proud of what hes doing, if he really thinks mike flynn is a good guy, have him over to the rose garden, put up the flags yourself, light yourself so you know, so you look your best, if you will, and do it in the light of day. Instead, he sends out a skeevy tweet at 4 00 on the wednesday before thanksgiving. Certainly feels like a news dump in terms of the timing of this pardon. And you are certainly right to highlight the really terrible split screen, lets be honest here, for President Trump. Joe biden today stood at the podium with the American Flags and the backdrop of the flekt and delivered a somber, very president ial message, warning americans to take the virus seriously here during the thanksgiving holiday, and saying yes, there is light at the end of the tunnel, that the nation needed to stay strong until we got there. And then we have President Trump, who has remained behind closed doors. We saw him briefly at the white house yesterday, he spoke for exactly 64 seconds, i believe it was, and then later proceeded over some other pardons. This time, of turkeys, of corn and cob, a little less controversial than todays, but refused to take any sort of questions from the media. And we sue Rudy Giuliani, whose news conferences have gone from bad to worse, from total landscaping in philadelphia to the one at the rnc with the hair dye streaking down his cheek to today in the ballroom of a Wyndham Hotel just outside gettysburg, as the president calls in on a speakerphone, making nonsensical arguments about this election. We are seeing a president here who his advisers say hes so concerned about what the next step is going to be, yes, they recognize the election is lost. This is about setting himself up beyond this, for whatever the next step might be, if its into the media, an effort to try to make some money and yes, to keep his political future alive. And maybe he actually announces for 2024 or whether he just kind of stokes that fire for awhile, keep the rumors going, the ever his aides say that decision hasnt been made. But hes setting himself as a stronger and it seems like nub of that is working. And what hes done, this pardon of flynn, is going to make it extremely uncomfortable for more and more republicans, this is now the topic of conversation instead of the runoff in georgia, which is what Mitch Mcconnell wants to be talking about. You know, frank, im just thinking, im looking at these pictures of mike flynn, he had the shortest tenure at white house National Security adviser in history and some of the names that are in circulation, have been reported as being in contention to be President Bidens new attorney general were involved in this episode. And i sally yates was the acting attorney general and she was the one that went over and told don mcgann, who was the new white House Counsel at the time, that they had evidence, through i believe an intercept, we listen sometimes to the russians, thats where we picked up kislyak talking to mike flynn. Mike flynn proceeded to lie about those conversations, as robert gibbs said, to the Vice President and to the fbi. He was charged, he was convicted, he pleaded guilty twice in a court of law. He was awaiting sentencing. Donald trump sought to have that investigation stopped, curtailed by jim comey who refused. It went on. But today, hes pardoned him. And i wonder if you think that arc, as robert gibbs called it, a book end, what does that portend, if sally yeates is a figure tapped for the leadership position at the Justice Department for President Biden . Well, theres some karmalike irony that could be involved here, where the person at doj who tried to warn the white house, who tried to get justice on the table with regard to the threat that mike flynn posed with his relationship to russia, his potential for compromised by russia, because he was lying and russia knew he was lying, to the Vice President , to the fbi, that same person could end up back at doj overseeing the Justice System and the department of justice. So, the irony would be sweet. I can already hear republicans in trumps orbit claiming that cant happen, shes too close to this, she could recuse herself, you can hear the whole recusal drum beat starting right now, because she was involved in this, but i know this. The president who claims hes a law and order president , has just said in this pardon that its okay to lie to Law Enforcement, even if you admit that youve done it. So, we need an attorney general who actually is about law and order. I dont really care who biden picks, because any of the names in circulation would be far better and far more rep essentialive of america than the current attorney general who occupies that seat. We need and attorney general who understands that america is his or her client and who therefore relates to america and understands what weve been through as a country in the last four years. Understand that you have up to a 6 more chance if youre black of getting shot by the police in this country. So, we need an attorney general who looks at civil rights and releases doj and allows them to go at patterns and practices investigations of police departments. We need an attorney general who understands the disparity in the Justice System right now. So, bidens headed in that direction. Whoever it is will be low and order, not like the president claims he is. And robert gibbs, to come back to you and sort of your idea of a book end, this is a chapter that started with mike flynn leading the lock her up chants. It really started to get the attention of the National News media at the convention in minneapolis when he laeld thoed chants in an entire convention hall. Seems like another time, when we gathered at political conventions. He then rose to this job, over the objections of Chris Christie, who was the transition director until he was fired by jared and others, there were warnings also from thenpresident obama, who knew that while his service in the military was honorable, that mike flynn had some questionable judgment, he had traveled to moscow and attended an event and given some paid speeches there and he came in with warnings from from former president obama, from Chris Christie who tran the transition, donald trump put him there anyway, he only lasted 14 days he is almost like an avatar from everything that was wrong with how donald trump viewed National Security, that he made this man his National Security adviser. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it i mean, look, i think every appointee for donald trump was there to serve donald trump and not to serve the nation. And i think that was the contrast that you heard even talked about yesterday as president elect biden was rolling out some of his nominees for these jobs. So, i think, look, i think the disconcerting thing for america is, its only the latter part of november. Weve still got a decent amount of time before the transition is over and i think as it relates to pardons, its likely to be buckle up more than anything else, for what might be coming down the pike. Yeah. Jonathan, on that point, well put you on the spot. Where do you put the olds that donald trump trying to pardon himself and or members of his family . I think that is i dont know that id want to hazard exactly or place odds but i wouldnt rule it out, nicolle. We know that the president has been talking about pardons among a number of people close to him and dolling them out one by one to sort of, rather than one fail swoop. And certainly, we can say this, there have been conversations the president has had about thinking about his family and himself as he looks towards heading out of office and potentially into some legal trouble on the state level in new york in particular. You know, what would that look like, frank, for a president to pardon himself . I think all of the disgrace that weve experienced globally and being look gd at as becoming almost a thirdworld country in terms of the rule of law, the three different branches of government, i think that gets even more amplified if we have a president who can just say, i pardoned myself of crimes. So, i i actually think that legal scholars who maybe get the president s ear will attempt to talk him out of it because i dont think it will hold up. Its untested, but i dont think it will hold up. I think heres another theory, though. If he wants to avoid the embarrassment of conceding to biden, he can claim that, you know what, for legal reasons, i have to step down and allow Vice President pence to take over so he can legally pardon me. Its an out that the president could be thinking about by saying, im not going to concede, but im going to make pence president for a day or two to pardon me, i need to do that for legal purposes and maybe he saves face doing that, so weve got to stay tuned and see what happens there. If that day ever comes, im going to summon all three of you back to talk me through it. What a spectacle for this now fragile democracy. Frank, robert, jonathan and my thanks to dr. Redlener who we lost when this news broke. Thank you so much for getting us through this extraordinary breaking news in the first half of our show. When we come back, well have more on this breaking pardon news. Steve schmidt will join us. Im sure he has something to talk about this. And well turn back to mrek joe biden who has laid out an ambitious agenda for his first 100 day cans. Republicans, who havent all acknowledged his victory are already signaling theyll stand in his way. Thats all coming up after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Our adversaries arent waiting. The coronavirus isnt waiting. The economy isnt waiting. America shouldnt have to wait, either. The American People have spoken. The result is clear. Its time to move forward. And get to work. Well, i feel badly for general flynn, i feel very badly. Hes led a very strong life. Michael flynn, general flynn, is a wonderful man. I think hes been treated very, very unfairly by the media. Are you going to pardon Michael Flynn . Well, hes got a case going on right now, i think i dont know this for a fact, but i think hes doing very well with respect to his case. I hope that hes going to be able to win it and i dont have a decision to make until i find out whats going to happen. Were back with the breaking news that donald trump has just moments ago tweeted that he has issued a full pardon of general Michael Flynn. Mike flynn pleaded guilty twice in a court of law to lying to the fbi, he was awaiting sentencing, where bill Barrs Justice Department in a move that alienated career prosecutors who quit the case, was seeking to have that case dismissed. And before it could be reviewed and adjudicated, donald trump today issuing a full pardon to mike flynn. Joining our conversation now is sam stein, politics editor at the daily beast. Mare a mara gay and my longtime friend steve schmidt, former republican strategist and cofounder of the lincoln project. Steve, i start with you on the breaking news. Well, its not surprising that weve entered the corrupt pardons phase of the trump coup against the American Election at all. Look, not a surprise. Doesnt matter, though, for general flynn, whether hes pardoned or not, he disgraced himself. This was a Lieutenant General in the United States army and his colleagues, the people he spent his life serving with, all know the magnitude of his disgrace, the denialment of his oath, of his duty and no president ial pardon takes that away. You know, sam, whats striking, we came on the air today with this remarkable call for patience from the American People to do the right things in terms of protecting ourselves and our loved ones from the coronavirus this Holiday Weekend and this winter. We playeds alongside a tony fauci interview this morning, where he basically says the same thing. And for a president , a lame duck president in donald trump, who is trying to claim that the election was won by him, hes the one acting like he has no interest in actually leading this country and joe biden ahead of his actual inauguration has already, i think, moved into the leadership role for this country in terms of speaking about the country and not himself, in terms of acting and looking and sounding president ial instead of calling in on an iphone to a microphone at a shady hearing in a state thats already certified its results for joe biden. The split screen is that the president elect is the president and donald trump is acting like a twobit criminal. Yeah, i think the contrast, the split screen, as you said, was really profound today, i mean, having the president of the United States, a man who can go anywhere and turn anything into a stage, who has the bully pulpit of the office, you know, reduced to having to call into a cell phone put on speaker, held up to a microphone in a Conference Room in a Wyndham Hotel in gettysburg, pennsylvania, in front of a bunch of state lawmaker s and maskless conspiracy theorists why joe biden is giving this address and it does suggest these two men are on different trajectories. One holding on against all logic and odds and reality and the other ready to presume the office of the presidency. The pardon news does show, though, that there are several weeks left for trump to act within his powers and to do what hes done throughout his presidency, which is to utilize the levers and powers of the office often for either personal gain or for personal political gain. This is not going to be the only pardon, nor will it be the only pardon of an associate close to trump who has become a hero, public figure on the right. And the thing ill add about the phone thing is, this is an embodiment of how trump has turned the government on his head. Mike flynn was fired because he was not truthful to Vice President mike pence. That type of deception would normally not endear you to the president. But trump has made every issue into sort of a referendum on himself and by the end of this saga, whether or not you supported a pardon for Michael Flynn became a litmus test as to whether or not you supported donald trump personally. So, of course he was pardoned, because trump felt like it was a personal referendum. Yeah, and i mean, mara gay, to sams point, i know that we arent surprised, because donald trump has conditioned us to expect nothing but sort of the gutter, to be blunt, about what he does, but we should all be shocked that a man who assumed the role of this countrys National Security adviser, he didnt work for donald trump, he worked for us, he was in charge of National Security, its a job held by people who have gone on to be the secretary of state and defense secretary, who have made important decisions and given advice to president s at vital moments of our country, this nail security adviser, as sam just said, lied not just to the fbi, but to the Vice President and today he got a full pardon from donald trump. I want to read you what adam schiff had to say about it. Let me put it up that we have that. Congressman schiff said, quote, its no surprise that trump would go out just as he came in, crooked to the end. Yeah, you know, we should be shocked, but we should also be prepared, because i think, unfortunately, this is the tip of the iceberg. I do expect that we will see a full bevy of pardons, if not for himself personally, which is, i think another major concern, then certainly for those around him. We found that the vast majority of pardons this president has made so far have been to those who he with whom he isnected some benefit from. Certainly not on the behalf of justice or the American People, god forbid. I think its important to know there are limits to president ial pardon power and those should really be strictly enforced. One of those limits, of course, is that the president cannot pardon people for state crimes and that includes himself, of course. And then, you know, the other is that, and attorney general william barr actually testified to this, right, which is that if a president does pardon someone and its later found that that is actually tampering with a judicial proceeding, that can be an obstruction of justice, a criminal offense, so, thats a concern. And i think more broadly speaking, to your point, nicolle, we may not be surprised, we should remain shocked, because its a moral outrage, but it really reminds me of something that Martin Luther king said in one of his sermons years ago, he said, never forget that everything that was done in nazi germany was legal. And really, i think that is true of so much of this presidency, but this is the most explicit example before us today. Well, look. Once mara gay gets profound and quotes mlk, i cant tgo back to something stupid trump has tweeted. This isnt just an assault on the truth, isnt just what president obama calls truth decay, it is now this, while legal, i mean, maras right, the president ial power to pardon is absolute, it does represent a smear, an assault, on the rule of law and on justice. And on this flynn case, we should remind our viewers that bill barr bill barr should be mad at donald trump, i guess thats towo tarrant ulas in a bowl if they were to go at it. Bill barr was attacked by 100 former doj officials for his n conduct in trying to get flynns case dismissed. He went in, judge sally van had to hire an outside judge to represent his sbrechss as a judge for continuing the sentencing phase because mike flynn had pleaded guilty in his court, i think prominent lawyers represent i mean, this became a mess, because bill barr sought to step in and interfere with the rule of law and the sort of gears of justice early on. Why do you think all these men went to such lengths for mike flynn . I dont note the answer to that, but my suspicion is because of the immensity of the corrupt acts that took place and the corruption of the Trump Presidency. Nicolle, i think one of the things that history requires is per perspective. The perspective of time, where were able to sort out events and look at them comparatively so we can assess their relative importance to guiding us to the place that we ultimately get to. And i think this month, without that perspective yet, which will come through time, i think its a very historic month. Weve seen two big things in the month of november. We saw the election of joseph biden of delaware to be the 46th president of the United States, but weve also watched play out over these last couple weeks the poisoning of american democracy by almost the totality of the elected Republican Leaders of the country. Breaking faith with democracy, breaking faith with the american republic. It may appear to be a farce, but what trump is attempting is a coup. Period. And at the end of the day, the whole story of the country has been a fight about who gets to participate in the american idea and ideal. Martin luther king marched under the American Flag to the Lincoln Memorial to take to cash in a promissory note, right . Weve never had an argument about the idea and the ideals of the country. We had an argument about who can be involved it, who could participate in it. If the American People arent sovereign, if we dont pick the leaders of the country, who gets to decide who is in charge . Exactly how does that process work out . And so, what you saw this month over these weeks, it took three weeks, what 244 years of american history, no enemy could accomplish. We have we have north of 80 of republicans in this country, 40 of the country, believes that the result of an American Election is illegitimate, becaused on the assertion of lies, conspiracy theories and what we need to understand is that democracy is able to exist only fuelled by the faith and belief of the people and the legitimacy of that system. And thats been strangled to death this month by trump, by the republicans in congress, by his media enablers and it will define our politics, i suspect, for the rest of our lives. I could not agree with you more. And i think that when, you know, even when this network has made the right decision not to carry what donald trump says and does, in the interest of understanding how people become radicalized and have these wild and dangerous ideas about thenpresident obama, which Michelle Obama writes about, the birtherism and all the racism that was directed at the president and his entire family and when people look at the Trump Supporters not wearing ma masks, goes to rallies indoors and you have to assume everybody wants to protect their grandparents, their children, their families whishgs arent they . It is for the exact reason you just articulated. They have been fed disinformation from an entire ecosystem. They hear the president say it, they hear fox news applaud it, they read it on facebook with the stories that are kur rated for them by that platform. So we will stay on it, but ill agree with you and i appreciate your assessment. Everyone is staying put. When we come back, what thewant accomplish on day one t. And will he get cooperation from both sides on capitol hill . That story is next. N capitol hil that story is next so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. Thats how you do it right. Usaa insurance is made just the way martins family needs it with hasslefree claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. Because doing right by our members, thats whats right. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Usaa hello is friendly. Hello is open. Its welcoming. Everything we want to be when helping people find a medicare plan. So, if youre looking for yours, say hello to hellomedicare. A onestop shop for medicare plans, including a range of allinone Medicare Advantage plans from the names you know. Learn, compare, even enrollall in one place. No matter where you are in your searchwhether youre just starting out, or already have a good idea of what you want give us a call. 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So whether youre looking to save money, or find better coverage. Lets do this. Lets go find your medicare plan. Call us today and speak with one of our helpful, licensed hellomedicare agents. Hellomedicare. Say hello to an easier way to do medicare. President elect joe biden has laid out what is set to be a very busy first 100 days in office. Tackling everything from Immigration Reform with a bill providing a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants to action on climate as well as covid relief. Its an ambitious agenda by any measure, something even joe biden admits, but it may depend on getting some cooperation from Mitch Mcconnell and republicans. Were back with sam stein, mara and sam schmidt. Steve stein, where do you put the calculation here . Obviously, its easy to say they wont do anything. They began the Obama Presidency saying they would make sure he was unsuccessful but its different when 260,000 americans have died and the economy is in shatters because of the pandemic. What do you think . Is it different . I mean, i think so. But that doesnt should be. That doesnt necessarily it should be. But that doesnt necessarily translate into congressional action. What were seeing right now already is that Steve Mnuchin is trying to restrict some of the financial authorities that the fed and treasury have to help with a economic collapse related to covid. Thats trying to tie the hands of the incoming Biden Administration. Theres no indication that i get from our reporting that republicans are particularly eager to up their total on covid relief, so you know, bidens going to have his work cut out for him. I think in an ideal world, hed like to see some sort of deal put together prior to him entering office, some sort of Financial Relief bill that Chuck Schumer and nancy pelosi could agree to, but thats not particularly clear that that could happen. There are some things that he can obviously do very quickly upon entering office. Theres a lot of executive actions that are waiting for him, including on climate, covid relief. You can use some of the defense production authorities and then on immigration, its tricky. Obviously, theres some legal things over what kind of protections he can provide for undocumented immigrants. The idea that he would pass a comprehensive bill within 100 days goes in the face of any reading of recent legislative history, completely, and already there are grumblings on the right that theyre going to block it so i dont want to get progressives too down here, but the realities of the situation are that unless they flip the senate with these two seats runoffs in georgia, there is very little legislatively that you can envision joe biden doing upon entering office. You know, i guess, mara, i just see it as a broken Republican Party from the top to the bottom if theyre starting by i mean, how hypocritical. On the one hand, they wouldnt acknowledge biden won but on the other, theyre saying already they wont work with him. How do you start with a new president who hasnt even been acknowledged and who half of them havent even acknowledged won . Its an extremely difficult situation that not just joe biden but the democrats in general find themselves in. The way that you do that is you essentially bypass the Obstructionist Party and take your case directly to the American People. There may be an enduring Trump Coalition that refuses to listen to reason of any kind, weve seen its certainly not a majority and there are states and communities all across this country who vote very differently than one another who are in dire need of help for jobs, for healthcare, for covid relief, and i think if you really focus and narrow in on how to help those communities, you can really do a lot of good, and that is not just about covid, although thats the primary concern for the next year for sure with the vaccine. But its also extends to things like Rural Infrastructure and urban infrastructure, which i think theres broad agreement on. And so then, once youre able to make that case, you can essentially say to the republicans, or you can say to the American People, rather, you know, these are the this is the party that is preventing us from delivering for you, and you really kind of are able to cut through that partisan gridlock. Thats the best strategy, i think. I dont know that its going to work, but i think its the best thing they can do. Sam stein, mara gay, steve schmidt, all three of you, thank you very much for being with us today. The next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. Deadline white house starts after a quick break. Ht up here. It happens to all of us. We buy a new home, and we turn into our parents. What i do is help new homeowners overcome this. What is that, an adjustable spanner . Good choice, steve. Okay, dont forget youre not assisting him. You hired him. If you have nowhere to sit, you have too many. Who else reads books about submarines . My dad. Yeah. Oh, those are progressive cant protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto when you bundle with us. Look at that. Our own hopes and dreams. Well pass many milestones. Moments that define you. And drive you. To achieve even more. So, celebrate every one. Because success isnt just about where you want to get to. Its also about how you get there the all new 2021 cadillac escalade. Never stop arriving. America holds fast to the conviction that out of pain comes possibility. Out of frustration comes progress. And out of division, unity. Yall know in our finest hours, thats who weve always been. And thats who we shall be again. For i believe that this grim season of division, demonization, is going to give way to a year of light and of unity. You want us to hear one another again, see one another again, respect one another again. You want democrats and republicans and independents to come together and work together. And that, my friends, is what im determined to do. Hi again, everyone. Its 5 00 in the east. A moving call there for unity from the president elect. President elect biden proposing a new era where both sides work together. So far, what weve seen for the majority of elected republicans is loyalty to Donald Trumps false claims about the election or utter silence, which leaves the lame duck president free to leave office the way he held it, assaulting our institutions, our principles, traditions of government, the truth itself, and using the levers at his disposal to benefit himself and his friends. And the latest thing the republicans will have to answer for is the news that broke during our last hour, donald trump issuing a full pardon for Michael Flynn in a tweet. Flynn pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi nearly three years ago about conversations he had with the Russian Ambassador. This reporting from axios that suggests more pardons could be on the way from donald trump. That on top of trumps ongoing assault on our democracy, which continued today when he spewed false claims on a speakerphone to a room filled with Pennsylvania Republicans for a hearing of sorts led by Rudy Giuliani. Heres what the Washington Post reported about trumps spread of disinformation. Quote, by lodging baseless claims of voter fraud and embracing or declining to reject outlandi outlandish conspiracy theories about the electoral process, trump and his allies have normalized the kind of postelection assault on institutions typically seen in less developed democracies. Thats according to historians, former administration officials, and lawmakers and diplomats from across the political spectrum. That corrosion of americas leadership and values would in a normal world have been met with an uproar from republicans, but now, nothing. Silence. Even Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell has still not acknowledged joe bidens victory. Let that sink in. Which means the heroes of this story were not anyone in washington but local republican officials who put their positions over their country over their party over the president as tim alberta deftly describes in politico. In the end, it wasnt a senator or a judge or a general who stood up to the leader of the free world. There was no dramatic made for hollywood collision of egos. Rather the death knell was sounded by a babyfaced lawyer looking over his glasses on a grainy zoom feed on a gloomy monday afternoon, reading from a statement that reflected a courage and moral clarity that has gone awol from his party, pleading with the tens of thousands of people watching online to understand that some lines can never be uncrossed. A president ready to burn it all down on his way out the door, and Republican Party leaders unwilling to even try to stop him is where we start this hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. My colleague, Joe Scarborough, host of msnbcs morning joe and the author of the new book saving freedom truman, the cold war and the fight for western civilization and john brennan, msnbc senior National Security and intelligence analyst. Joe, i listen to you every morning. I know you feel a lot of the same things i feel and its hard to articulate the unbridled rage that someone who worked for republicans, who is a republican, who was a republican, feels watching these republicans, but how does joe biden govern and where does he find the inspiration to continue to want to unite with a party that hasnt even acknowledged his win . Well, im not so concerned about joe biden, only because these are the dying days of this dreadful administration. Yes, donald trump has pardoned Michael Flynn. He will likely issue more pardons that will be shocking. Hell probably try to pardon himself in the end, something that could eventually get to the supreme court. If charges are ever attempted to be brought against him. But i like what joe bidens doing. I like the fact that he continues to talk about bipartisanship, because you and i both know that when youre sitting inside the white house, you dont think youre ever going to leave. Ive seen this time and time again from one administration after another. Theyre in there and they think theyre going to be in there forever, and mika always told me a great story about her father, the most powerful voice in Foreign Policy, and at 12 00 noon on january 20th, 1977, the secret service that had been with him for four years straight walked in, ripped the phones out of the wall, got in their suvs, drove down the driveway, and left. And nicole, youve seen it up close as well. So, joe bidens going to he knows how to work with the republicans. Hes going to figure out how to get that done. What im concerned about is what we saw today, what were going to see over the next few months, and most disturbingly is what you were talking about. Friends of yours and mine that i would see inside of the bush white house, i wont even say their names because theyre not worthy of having their names repeated. I dont want to give them, you know, the even the joy of thinking that theyre getting to us. But so many friends that i worked with, guys that i was locked inside of a room with when we were launching a coup against Newt Gingrich because, get this, he wasnt conservative enough. These are the same people now who are turning a blind eye to donald trump not recognizing the incoming president of the United States, trying to overturn 80 million votes, turning a blind eye to the last two weeks of the campaign when donald trump was pressuring his attorney general to arrest his political opponent. Thats whats the most distressing to me, nicole, that our friends and our former Party Continues to behave this way toward this autocrat. You know, director brennan, everything that joe described and more is how i felt watching all this, and i cant help but think watching the republicans if we just arent the country that we thought we were. I mean, ive seen republicans get on the phone with Eastern European leaders and others and talk about having their backs as they reach for democracy, as guaranteeing that well be there to monitor their elections, to make sure that fraud doesnt occur or if it does, well be there. Well be there to call out the fraud. We now have a president manufacturing he is the fraud. The fraud is now the president , and all of the elected republicans, save for a tragic, tragic few, are going along with it. How do we travel the world and call ourselves champions of democracy after this . Well, its going to be difficult because what has happened over the last four years has really been to undermine the United States reputation and standing in the world. What we have stood for for so many years, speaking out against oppressive authoritarian regimes, speaking out in defense of human rights, doing those things that we have been known for, for certainly the last 75 years since world war ii. And so like joe, i am just aghast at what i have seen happen here in washington. And what donald trump has done is really not surprising or shocking to any of us. What i am shocked at are those that have been brought into his universe and continue to enable and apologize for what he is doing. And their silence, i think, really speaks volumes to the fact that the gop the gop that i knew is no longer in existence. Theres always been partisanship in washington. Partisanship is healthy. You want to have that back and forth and that give and take. However, what has happened now, because of that toxic influence of donald trump, really has, i think, undermined the healthy aspects of our democratic system, which is a twoparty system that really is trying to do what is best for the country as opposed to the individual in the oval office. So im just hoping that joe biden and joe biden is somebody whos going to really try to unite us, but its going to be challenging. Its going to be challenging on the home front. Its going to be challenging for him on the International Front because the word of the United States really is no longer carries the sense of durability that it had in the past. As the United States has walked away from international agreements, the fact that donald trump speaks the way he does about america first. So, unfortunately, i think what we saw roll out yesterday is, if youre playing fantasy football, its the dream team of National Security, and so i do have confidence that if were going to have any hope of repairing the damage thats been done, these are the people that are going to help us get there. You know, joe, we sort of glossed over the mike flynn part and you described it as sort of the last gasp of the trump years but it does have that feeling. I think its the beginning of oceans 11 starts where theyre letting all the criminals out of jail so they can come together and do one last heist. I mean, it is not to be glossed over that he pardoned someone who lied to the fbi twice, lied to Vice President mike pence, and you know, we struggle with whether to lead with it again this hour after talking about it at 4 00. I mean, how much do you worry that so much disregard for the rule of law and that the bar was lowered to basically underground in terms of barely expecting fealty even to the country in terms of how National Security was carried out. How does marco rubio get off tweeting at anybody. Its hard to say. Im shocked its over 70 Million People voted for donald trump. Im shocked that people that sucked up to donald trump over the past four years were rewarded at the battle box. Im shocked that my home state of florida went as strongly for donald trump as it did. You know, but the thing is, again, its so fascinating, nicole, and i know you hear the same think as well, people come up and say, oh, i liked it when you were a conservative, joe. No, im a conservative. I believe in the same things that i believe. I mean, i could name i look forward to the days, for instance, when john brennan and i can have debates about what happened after september 11th. He and i disagreed strongly on what the cia was doing and the cias program and the intense enhanced interrogation techniqu techniques or torture. Those were important debates, the debates on what we do with our budget, how we save sba entitlement programs. I have Great Respect for director brennan and his views. I know he has respect for the process where we could debate these things and we did debate these things aggressively. All of us did. But nicole, were at a point now where i just i look at director brennan and i look at other people who i may have disagreed with on policies throughout my life, and i thank god there are enough people who believe in the things that we all grew up believing in, about constitutional norms, about political norms, about what this country stands for. That were able to come together and talk about this and find common ground. And what i dont understand, nicole, is why the hell the people you and i grew up with, you and i worked with, you and i campaigned with, dont know how they lost their way, how they turned their backs on constitutional norms and embraced an autocrat, an autocrat wannabe. This former reality tv host who really has caused great damage to this republic, not only domestically but internationally as well. You know, joe and i think that theres such a hunger to see what normal looks like again, and youre right, im just thinking back to all the highminded Foreign Policy discussions with richard, still have highminded policy discussions but its almost like the fire alarms been pulled and its been ringing so loudly for four years that we havent been able to debate the subtleties of how best to deal with iran. We had years of debates about that. Now its just trying to get everyone to agree on who our adversaries are and who our friends are. Donald trump saw our allies as enemies, saw our adversaries like putin as his best friends. What i worry about is we mock the stupidity of what donald trump does, hes holed up in the white house probably in, you know, elastic waistband pants, but a lot of people in his base will listen to whatever he uttered through the iphone held to the speaker in that lame event and believe him. So, how do you deal with what president obama described as truth decay . I mean, all we can do is keep our head down and hope that joe biden comes together, hope that there are enough senators that come together and work in a bipartisan way. Because the American People, whether ideologues on both sides like it or not, they voted for divided government. Whether you like Susan Collins or not, the people of maine elected her by 9 percentage points. They voted for joe biden by 9 percentage points. They gave republicans, i dont know how they gave Kevin Mccarthys house more seats, but they did. They wanted to check democrats and they wanted joe biden in the white house to check republicans. So, i have confidence that, you know, there are still some people in the middle who will work with joe biden, whether its Susan Collins or whether its Lisa Murkowski or whether its mitt romney on the republican side, whether its joe manchin, mark kelly, governor hickenlooper on the democratic side. I believe there are six, seven, eight people of goodwill that will work with joe biden and will actually forge a consensus so we can finally get things done in a washington. Its been a very long time since weve had regular order and have been able to pass bills domestically that actually could move this country forward into the 21st century. We are stuck in this partisanship, and we have to move forward and do it. And i think joe biden may be the perfect man for the perfect time to work with the republicans and democrats alike. Well, hes certainly seen it all, and i want to bring you in on the breaking news weve been talking about, the pardon of mike flynn, shocking while not surprising is the judgment of most people that i have spoken to today, but i guess my question for you is, theres been some reporting that this is the first in a string of pardons. Do you know whos next and does the list include donald trump and his family . Look, theres any number of people who you could think of who the president might pardon. The names that you hear are paul anyone from Paul Manafort to really as one source put it to me a little bit ago, ni anyone who the president might see out there as a potential threat to him, somebody he wants to keep inside the tent. We know there are active investigations, federal ones none of this matters in terms of state investigations, obviously, but there are a number of federal investigations into some of the president s allies, steve bannon, for instance, is already under indictment. Rudy giuliani. Theres investigations into him. Theres also the president himself has telegraphed some people that he might consider pardoni pardoning. In september, he said he might consider pardoning Edward Snowden and we know that the president has privately mused about whether or not he could pardon himself and what that would look like. But flynn has long been at the top of his list and its part of this broader effort for him to erase the Mueller Report and he has this has been something flynns saga has been on and off in the courts for sometime, going back three years. You know, its three years ago now at thanksgiving when the New York Timess Michael Schmidt first reported that flynn had broke ties with President Trumps legal team, which was a sign that he was cooperating with the special counsel and then he pled guilty a year later. The judge declined to sentence him, and thats how we got to where we are now, where the flynn then tried to withdraw his guilty plea. The Justice Department got involved. And all of that is moot. We were waiting for the judge to rule on the Justice Departments motion to dismiss this case, and the president is just gearing up. Thats what my reporting shows. He is this is a power that he likes and this is just the beginning. Director brennan, i saw you tweet i saw you basically exhale all of the worry for the countrys National Security that we have been talking about for the last four years, really, on twitter when you said you will stop tweeting about donald trump, but to carols point, hes just getting started. These are your tweets, which i read and i admired very much. I put them on the screen. For four years, i spoke out vigorously against Donald Trumps craven dishonesty, corrupt pursuit of personal interest and trampling of our democratic principles. After serving over three decades in National Security, i felt compelled to condemn trumps depravity and incompetence. My outspokenness has brought criticism, retaliation by the trump administration, and threats by those blinded by trumps demagoguery. Yet, it is unusual for a former cia director to speak out, but when an autocrat descended upon the white house, silence was not an option for me and i know other people who were Senior Intelligence officials in the community appreciated what you did, director brennan, and youre right. You were constantly targeted for attack and frankly investigation by this president and his administration. But to your point about staying qui quiet, what are your sort of closing concerns for the final 60 days of the Trump Presidency . Well, im not going to mention donald trump on twitter again. I think were all very tired of donald trump and just want to get him into the rear view mirror as quickly as we can. That doesnt mean i wont speak out on your show and others about the damage that he can yet do, because we do have several more weeks until inauguration that he may decide to, you know, issue i could see him issuing a class action pardon for everybody whos worked for him in the white house administration. He may also issue himself a pardon. So, its i think really quite concerning. The pardons, yes, theyre reprehensible, but as far as things that he could do to really damage this countrys standing further, politicization of the u. S. Military on the home front, doing something abroad in terms of military action, i think these are things that we have to be worried about and im wondering whether or not joes former republican colleagues are really going to stand up and yell out if donald trump decides to do Something Like that in the future. Joe, you want to jump in . Well, if the past is prologue, the answer to that, unfortunately, is no. Again, i have to ask. When i called my friends and my family members, two, three weeks before the election, and i said, are you really going to vote for donald trump, this guy is actually saying every day that hes bringing pressure on his attorney general to arrest his political opponent who hes behind in the polls to. Can you really vote for that person . And they just disregarded it. They just ignored it. I mean, this is something that happens in russia. This is something that happens in belarus. This is something that happens in other countries across the world that, like you said, nicole, we have lectured in the past, over the past 75 years, and yet they were unmoved by that. And you look at marco rubios tweets yesterday. You look at what other republicans havent said yet. Mitch mcconnell. Why why hasnt the majority leader spoken out when its evident the next president of the United States is going to be joe biden . Its just beyond me, but unfortunately, none of us can really be surprised, again, because some of our Close Friends through the years have proven that theyre more loyal to a failed reality tv host and now a failed president than they are to the constitution of the United States. To constitutional norms. To political norms. Its ive got to say, its one of the most shocking things that i have seen in my life. Director brennan, ive got one last question for you on this topic. Do you think America Needs a democracy project here . I had a lot of friends who spent a lot of their years after working in the white house or on the hill working for democracy groups all over the world. Is it time for such an effort here, making those kinds of issues that joes talking about matter to people here . Yeah, we should probably start in the congress, first of all, so that we remind them about what their obligations are to the constitution and what a democracy really is. But i think there needs to be greater education and understanding in terms of civic responsibility, civic duties, and what it means to be an american. Because i think, unfortunately, donald trump has really allowed a lot of americans to forget, in fact, what that means. Yeah. Director brennan, im glad you only stopped tweeting about him and youre still going to talk to us about him and everything that happens. Thank you for spending time with us. Carol lee, thank you for your great reporting. Joe is sticking around a little longer. When we come back, what president elect joe biden can learn from harry truman, another president who took office at a time of worldwide crisis. Joe scarborough will be back to talk to us about his new book. Plus much more on Donald Trumps pardon today, by tweet, of his former National Security advisor mike flynn. And its one of the biggest questions facing the biden Justice Department. Should donald trump be prosecuted . Well take a closer look at whether trump should be held accountable for his subversion of the rule of law before and after becoming president and whether he should be held accountable once he leaves office. All that and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. House contins after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. K for fractur, now might not be the best time to ask yourself, are my bones strong . life is full of make or break moments. Thats why its so important to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. Only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. Do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it, or take xgeva®. Serious allergic reactions like low blood pressure, trouble breathing, throat tightness, face, lip or tongue swelling, rash, itching or hives have happened. Tell your doctor about dental problems, as severe jaw bone problems may happen. Or new or unusual pain in your hip, groin, or thigh, as unusual thigh bone fractures have occurred. Speak to your doctor before stopping, skipping or delaying prolia®, as spine and other bone fractures have occurred. Prolia® can cause serious side effects, like low blood calcium, serious infections, which could need hospitalization, skin problems, and severe bone, joint, or muscle pain. Dont wait for a break, call your doctor today, and ask about prolia®. Joe biden will soon be office of the presidency eight weeks from today and if hes looking for any day one guidance, our colleague, Joe Scarborough, has an idea, the 46th president has some things to read up about and learn from the 33rd, harry truman. In a review of joes new book, saving freedom, the New York Times writes this, quote, in an earnest, engaging new book, saving freedom, Joe Scarborough shows readers why the most important how, truman set a precedent for all his successors and cable news chatter more than seven decades later by crediting wily politicians for americas cold war policy instead of the wise men in the governments bureaucracy, scarborough reminds readers that long telegrams like george kennens and policy memorandums from the state department dont make successful doctrines. Politicians do. Scarborough shows how the often underestimat underestimated truman pulled it off. Joes back. Joe, so, i grew up, my moms best friend, aunt joann, loved harry truman so i grew up reading about harry truman and knowing my moms best friend thought he was amazing and i was so excited when you wrote about him and one of my favorite things you wrote was in the Washington Post about how he was underestimated and you draw some parallels to joe biden. Talk about that. Constantly underestimated. Joe biden, for years, has been the butt of many jokes, especially after his failed 1988 campaign. People you know, we theres a clip in the new reagan documentary where Jeff Greenfield suggests that one day joe biden might be president of the United States, and Walter Cronkite responds by laughing and says, well, okay, enough there. Well, you look at harry truman. This is a guy that was when he came to washington, d. C. , was dismissed as a strange little man by historian and the top political columnist. When he was selected by fdr to be Vice President , it was mocked as a second missouri compromise. Time magazine called him a mousey little man from missouri. The New York Times called him a rube and the insults continued even after he was president. To err is truman is something that democrats and republicans alike said. And its so funny. You talk about your aunt who loved harry truman. I write in the book about my family who were southern democrats. They got through the Great Depression in rural georgia, in dalton, georgia, because of fdr and the new deal. They worshipped fdr. And i remember asking my mom what she thought of harry truman when i started after i visited the Truman Library and she laughed, and she said, oh, you know, we just we kind of looked down on him, thought he was a country bumpkin. This was the clarks of dalton, georgia, who were democrats and baptists and only survived the Great Depression because of the new deal. And it just showed, he was constantly underestimated. When he left, he had a 22 Approval Rating and yet Winston Churchill rightly said that no man more than harry truman saved western civilization, and it may have taken historians 30, 40 years to figure it out, but he was a great president , and the most influential on the world stage in the 75 years in the postwar world. How did you come to write a book about harry truman . Well, id always loved truman. When i was traveling across the country, graduated from the university of alabama, got in my car with some friends and we drove across the country to the promised land, california, and, well, you know, independence, missouri, was in between tuscaloosa, alabama, and the west coast, so i stopped there and read up on truman, absolutely loved him. I got his president ial portrait as a poster. I framed it as a young lawyer. Then i went up to congress. I had two president s portraits in my room. One was harry truman and one was ronald reagan, and people would come in and wonder why harry truman. I said, you know, he started the cold war, and reagan and bush helped end it but actually starting the cold war was a harder accomplishment than even finishing it, because truman had to do what weve been talking about with biden. He had to deal with a tough Republican Congress who had been in the minority for 14 years under fdr, and they did not want to follow another democratic president s policy prescriptions, but they did. Well, you sounded optimistic at the top of the hour, before i brought everyone down to trumps latest tactics, about joe bidens ability to find some openings in congress. What makes you optimistic . And im glad you are. You know, nicole, its always irritated me, even though when i ran, people considered me to be sort of a conservative populist, and i ran against washington like most people run against washington. But once i got there, i figured out, and this is what the times review says. The people who know how to make things happen in washington are people who have been in washington, who, you know, and so we always talk about outsiders and we dont want an outsider for a dentist. We want somebody whos actually been a dentist for a long time. I dont want an outsider whos never flown a plane to fly my plane. I dont want a brain surgeon who doesnt really know brain surgery to operate if a loved one of mine needs brain surgery. So, why do we keep thinking that we can get these people from outside of washington who have contempt for washington . Bidens been there. He knows how it works. You go back and you look. Who were three of the most successful president s in the postwar era . Harry truman, lbj, who passed more landmark Domestic Legislation than anybody else, and you know, those two, of course you could put bill clinton in there, who also knew how to make things work. And then, of course, ronald reagan. But they understood how to deal with the other party. And those first two, lbj and truman, understood the senate just like joe biden understands the senate. And at the end of the day, i dont want to oversimplify this, nicole, but you know it all comes down to personal relationships, and having the perseverance to stay in there, talk to people, and make the deals. And thats what biden knows how to do. Joe scarborough, its always great to get to talk to you on tv again. Thank you so much for spending some time with us here today and congratulations not just on the new book but on the great reviews its getting. Thank you so much for having me here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, joe. The book is up there. Truman the cold war and the fight for western civilization. Thank you. When we come back, joe biden has vowed to heal the nation but what about the critical question of Donald Trumps subversion of the rule of law . Should trump be prosecuted . Two of our very good friends from the legal world will be back with us after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Ck with us afk break. Dont go anywhere. See yourself. Welcome back to the mirror. And know youre not alone because this is not just a mirror. Its an unstoppable community. Come on jessie one more. Its a race across time zones. Come on you two, lets go. A gift for the whole family. So join in now and see your best self in the mirror. You can go your own way its time you make the rules. So join the 2 Million People who have switched to xfinity mobile. You can choose from the latest phones or bring your own device and choose the amount of data thats right for you to save even more. And youll get 5g at no extra cost. All on the most reliable network. So choose a data option thats right for you. Get 5g included and save up to 400 dollars a year on the network rated 1 in customer satisfaction. Its your wireless. Your rules. Only with xfinity mobile. Some democrats want investigations to go forward against President Trump after he leaves office. Do you support that . I will not do what this president does and use the Justice Department as my vehicle to insist that something happened. There are a number of investigations that i have read about that are at a state level. Theres nothing at all i can or cannot do about that. President elect joe biden with our own lester holt last night suggesting he will not be involved in any criminal prosecution or investigation of donald trump, who on january 20th, will be a private citizen again and have any and all protection from pending and potential legal cases stripped away. But senior mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissman says bidens attorney general should investigate trump and if warranted, prosecute him for his obstruction of justice in their investigation and potential crimes before and after taking the oath of office. Weissman writes, in a new oped for the New York Times, quote, because of some of the activities in question predated his presidency, it would be untenable to permit mr. Trumps winning a federal election to immunize him from consequences for earlier crimes. We would not countenance that result if a former president was found to have committed serious violent crime. Sweeping under the rug mr. Trumps federal obstruction would be worse still. Being president should mean you are more accountable, not less, not rule of law. Joining our conversation, Andrew Weissman, former fbi general counsel and former Senior Member of the Mueller Probe and former acting solicitor general. They are both nbc news and msnbc legal analysts. Andrew, i want to start with your piece. Does this mean that a new Justice Departments Criminal Division would reopen the twovolume Mueller Report and look at the evidence around those, i think, six acts of obstruction of justice and consider whether or not to prosecute those . I think that is going to be a decision for the new attorney general as to whether to do that. And the way i look at this, theres sort of a big picture, nicole, is and this piggy backs on your last segment the rule of law is a crown jewel of our democracy, and you know, the president s actions today in abusing the pardon power is just, you know, another nail in the coffin of that rule of law. But to be a country that believes in the rule of law, it means are you going to apply that to the most senior levels of the government, meaning a former president of the United States . You know, we have seen around the globe that that applies. Yesterday, the french opened a criminal trial of a former president. In israel, there is an indictment of the current head of the israeli government. So, its unheard of to do that. It would be unheard of here, but when the facts warrant it, it means that the president and the former president should be subject to the law, and if they broke it, they should be held to account just like any other of us would be held to account. Neil, i mean, to pick up on Andrews Point, today, donald trump im trying to think a classy word for what i want to say. Further demeaned the rule of law by pardoning mike flynn, who pleaded guilty in front of judge sullivan twice, to lying to the fbi. He also happened to lie to the Vice President about a conversation with the Russian Ambassador, no less. It seems that the conversation about what will happen in Biden Administration misses the point that joe biden was trying to make last night. Whether donald trump is prosecuted or not, in a healthy democracy, in a normal American Executive Branch of government, would not be joe bidens determination. It would be up to the Justice Department. So can you sort of separate out those two ideas and tell me what you hear when you hear joe biden say what he said to lester holt . Yeah, absolutely. So, my take on this is a little bit different than andrews. I loved his piece, but for me, i do think we have to leave these decisions up to the new attorney general, and i think joe biden will pick a great attorney general and let her or him decide this, because the fundamental thing, and this gets to your question is i dont think we want a world in which the president says to the attorney general, go prosecute the last guy or ultimately last woman. You know, we want to signal the independence of Law Enforcement from the political process which is precisely what trump has tried to destroy. At the same time, i think andrews absolutely right, we dont want a world in which president s can break the law, spit on it with impunity, and for that reason, i think investigation and ultimately prosecution of the president is going to be appropriate. We need to send a signal both inside to the folks in our government and outside to the American People and indeed the world that this is a country thats the rule of law. I mean, i can just tell you, i remember walking into government buildings, like the supreme court, it says, equal justice under law, and you think of it and you look at all the pictures of people at the Justice Department who have served there, who did it impartially, all those career folks who, like, go in on saturdays and print their emails because they want to maintain records or report every chance meeting with every foreign official that they happened to come across and fill out these onerous Financial Disclosure forms and the like, and then youve got this guy, who literally spits on all of that, who literally rips up his meeting notes with putin, who lies about his finances, including what looks like to the irs and others, you know, i dont think that the system can tolerate that. So i think biden is right to say what he said to holt yesterday, which is, im going to let the attorney general decide. But boy, i mean, there are some pretty concerns here. Andrew, you want to respond to that . Well, we may actually be what they say is, you know, radically agreeing, which is i agree that it should not be the president thats making this. I think it should be the attorney general, and i think that joe biden is spending exactly the right message, which is that we dont want to be turn into an autocratic state where the president uses the Justice Department as a political tool. And nicole, i wanted to point out why i think theres a particularly strong federal interest here that the attorney general, the new attorney general, should take into account. For obstructing the appointment of a special counsel, and here the special counsel was investigating, among other things, a russian attack on our democracy in 2016. Doesnt matter which party russia was helping or hurting. Its equally destructive of democracy. If there is no deterrent to a president who obstructs the special counsel, then lets not bother ever having a special counsel, because this is really an issue of, is there going to be a check on the presidency . And we have substantial evidence can i ask you a question about that, andrew . Yep, absolutely. Would it be better would it have been better, though, if the and i know you worked on the manafort prosecution and that was covered in the collusion part of the chapter so im not asking you about something you were directly involved in, but would it have been more logical or simpler or easier to explain to the American Public if the obstruction of the report had come out and said, donald trump committed six crimes of obstruction of justice, if it wasnt so, i think the word you used was mealy mouthed. Yes. Of course it would be easier if we didnt have a double negative, and that report now could actually be written in a different way. In other words, once donald trump is no longer president , the concern about, you know, naming and shaming him when he wouldnt be able to have his day in court is no longer going to be an issue. But thats why the attorney general can make that can actually now make that call and say, i think theres sufficient evidence. I think that its an important vindication of the check on the a president , not doesnt really matter that its this president. That if you obstruct a special counsel investigation in a serious way where there was a serious issue that was being investigated, there has to be a consequence or what are we saying Going Forward . Because remember, the d. O. J. , the department of justice, has a policy thats not changing that you can not indict a sitting president. And so, if you dont indict a sitting president while he or she is in office and then later you say, well, lets just look forward because its too divisive, then you really are placing the president above the law, even if theyre going obstruct an investigation into their own conduct. Neal, can i ask you just a simple nonlawyer question. I mean, you look at all of that conduct as described in the Mueller Report. You look at the sentencing memo to Michael Cohen which names donald trump as individual number one, all the reporting in the New York Times about his Financial Difficulties and an ongoing audit and a trump ally said to me that donald trump is facing years of investigations and a lot of money spent in legal bills. How much trouble is he in . If you were a defense attorney who sat down with donald trump the day after he left the government, what would your straight and direct conversation and assessment of his exposure be . I mean, honestly, if i were his lawyer, i think i could retire off of donald trump alone and just be paid my legal bills for the rest of time. I dont think he pays his bills. He doesnt pay his bills so it would be a problem. Yeah. But you know, if he were an ordinary client. I think Andrews Point is really important here. Theres two bundles of stuff. One is the stuff trump did before he was president , and those are the tax fraud, the expensing stormy daniels, 130,000 payments, the financial contributions he was getting in breach of the Campaign Finance laws and like those are both federal and state crimes, and right now, a lot of the discussion is, lets prosecute that. Thats the easiest stuff to prosecute. But i think andrews really important point is, no, its actually the stuff he did while president , the stuff that andrews talking about, about the Mueller Report, the inaugural committee, his dealings with russia, what he did with the hatch act and all kinds of stuff like that and his subordinates and you know, like, i joked recently that you could take Rudy Giuliani and trumps lawyers conduct over the last three weeks and teach a whole course called bad lawyering just based on what they did on the last three weeks. But with trump, i mean, i think when you add up all the stuff, nicole, that hes done in and out of office, you could literally teach the entire criminal law course. I mean, ive taught that course 20 times at georgetown and at this point, trumps like prego. Its all in there. Everything. So, yes, massive exposure. And hes only been protected at this point because hes been a sitting president , as andrew said, but that is expiring in, you know, 55 days or so. So, neal, i also want to get you on what else the new attorney general will contend with. The Washington Post reports this. Among bidens transition team, early talks have focused on reinstituting a more robust Civil Rights Department and pushing more vigorously on criminal justice reform. According to people familiar, at the same time, biden has pledged to restore independence at the department, which weve been talking about. I want to ask you about some of the names that are in the news. Sally yates, obviously, is always talked about as strong candidate. Lisa monaco is talked about, former Homeland Security and white house advisor in the obama years, candidates and could you just assess some of their strengths, particular strengths, each one of them . Any of them would be amazing, nicole. Anything is a step up. My shoe is a step up from what we have now. These three that you mentioned would be extraordinary, extraordinary. Ive worked with each of them. They stand for independence. They stand for justice. They have so much work to do because trump is basically obliterated the independence that accept rapseparates the Ju Department from the white house. Once you break the norms, its hard to put back. There will be a lot of pressure on the folks at the Justice Department to do some of the same stuff back. Im sure they wont. Its not easy. When you think about for example the destruction of the civil rights division, how they dont bring any Police Misconduct cases or have destroyed descent decrees, that is important. I think, honestly, i was in the obama and clinton Justice Departments, we didnt do enough on criminal justice reform. We were way too lazy thinking about the issues and there is a Bipartisan Group over the last several years that said what are we doing with these crazy sentences . There is a lot of work to be done. Any of those three will do it marvelously. So we have a lot to look forward to. Andrew, your thoughts on all that awaits the next attorney general . So there are a lot of challenges but i also think if you look in the building, this is going to be one just incredible moral booster because you wont have somebody coming in whether its any of the people you mentioned who is going to denigrate the career people and call them montsory children. It will be career people who are really listened to and have a lot of attention paid to their recommendations. I think its going to be very hard for political people to over rule them without really good and transparent reasons because i think administration, the next one is going to be making it really clear they want to be taking a political decision based on the facts and the law, but i think as neal said, there is just things to do but i think the easy things are going to be repealing many of the initiatives and policies that the attorney general put into place, where its on election law, whether its interpretation of diversity training, a ohost of things the attorney general can do. The attorney general descr e described career doj officials as preschoolers. I think the moral boost is probably cant be over stated. Andrew weissman, neal, thank you both. Wonderful to see you. When we come back, remembering lives well lived. Remembering lives well lived [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know theres a 30minute limit, right . Tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, theres progressive. Did you try it yet . Comparing plans . Oh yeah. They sure can change year to year. I found lower premiums and lower prescription costs. And those new insulin savings hundreds of plans, 35 a month. Thatll save you money. So uh, mark . On medicare. Gov now. Open enrollment ends dec 7th. Comparing plans. Really pays. Paid for by the u. S. Department of health human services. She had plans, lots of them to spend more time with her grandchildren and write a book with her daughter and ride in a convertible with the top down. Iris was ready to enjoy her brandnew retirement, and it was so welldeserved. Iris spent 35 years as a registered nurse when she was growing up in harlem, she actually dropped out of high school, but according to the Dallas Morning News she got her ged and earned a degree in nursing. She worked at hospitals throughout new york before moving to texas to help set up an hiv clinic there. As we said, she had quite a career deserving of praise and rest and relaxation. Iris retired in january at the young age of 70, but when the pandemic hit, iris made a decision, retirement could wait. She had to help, so she took a job Teaching College students. Her daughter says it was her way of giving back. Teaching future front line workers all that she knew, so we are very, very sorry to report that iris died two weeks ago. So this year were thankful for iris. Were thankful for nurses, and were thinking about 261,000 empty chairs at thanksgiving tables across this country. We will be right back. Oss this y we will be right back. Our adversaries arent waiting. The coronavirus isnt waiting. The economy isnt waiting. America shouldnt have to wait, either. The American People have spoken. The result is clear. Its time to move forward. And get to work. This thanksgiving i want to say an extra big thank you to all of you for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. Have a safe and happy thanksgiving. Eat an extra piece of pie, youve earned it this year. The ari melbur starts now. Ill take two pieces of pie. Have a great thanksgiving. You, too. Welcome to the beat. Im ari melbur. One of the highest ranking Trump Officials to plead guilty in the russia probe. You may recall flynn admitted to lying to the feds. He also initially cooperated with the mueller investigatio