Thats the money in the family. I guess he didnt want 0 tato t about his fatherinlaw. Hes trying to get his sentenced reduced. Its pretty sad, weak. Very sad to watch a thing like that. I couldnt care less. What is this fatherinlaws name . I dont know but you will find out and you will look into it because nobody knows whats going on over there. Why does the president fear cohens testimony so much that hes targeting cohens family . Maybe because cohen implicated the president in a hush money scheme involving porn stars and has pleaded guilty to lying about trumps business ties to russia. It has always been the case that the cases around cohen that trumps allies fear most are for the president legally and unlike the near daily efforts by Rudy Giuliani to confuse the fact about the mueller problem, the hush money case, Campaign Finance allegations about the president , theyre clear, theyre public and theyre easy to understand. Despite all of that evidence, President Trump this afternoon denied threatening cohen at all. I would say hes been threatened by the truth. Hes only been threatened by the truth. And he doesnt want to do that probably for me or other of his clients. He has other clients also, i assume, and he doesnt want to tell the truth for me or other of his clients. Said the president , whos now lied more than 8,000 times. The chairman of the house intel and oversight committees stressing their sympathy for cohen and his family in a statement out this afternoon we understand mr. Cohens wife and other family members fear for their safety after these attacks and we have repeatedly offered our assistance to work with Law Enforcement to enhance kmurt measures for mr. Cohen and his family. Nevertheless, not appearing before congress was never an option. We expect mr. Cohen to appear before both committees and we remain engaged with his counsel about his upcoming appearances. The drama over cohens testimony colliding with the new development in Paul Manaforts case, his lawyers insisting in a new court filing that he didnt knowingly lie to investigators. Were reading through that heavily redacted document. We will bring you anything we learn in the coming minutes. Here to discuss the latest dramatic developments, some of our favorite reporters and friends, jonathan lamere, White House Reporter for the ap, former u. S. Attorney joyce vance is at the table, were happy about that, corinne jeanpierre with move on. Org and matt miller, justice security analyst for msnbc, former speaksmokesma the justice department, joins us from washington. Is cohen legitimately afraid for his safety and that of his family . Ill give it to you in realtime because i had a front row seat. I hand to speak to michael after the interview. He said im not doing it. Im not testifying. My wife is sitting here crying. Theyre calling out my poor fatherinlaw, 80something, a man whos never done anything. He watches his wife cry every day. He said im not doing it. I said michael, hes insulated now because he kbrobrought it o he said hes the president of the United States. He can do whatever he wants. So thats where it started. There are other threats happening, that happen every day that magnified a thousandfold. The things he gets written to about his daughter that are sohainous as soon as he starts to talk about testifying in congress. He volunteered in the first place. I wasnt quite sure what he was doing. He volunteered to do this. He was not asked and he was anxious to do it because he does have a story to tell. What the American Public can take solace in, they may not get their perry mason moment but hes given 70 hours to mueller. Hes spoken already to the senate. Theres nothing new hes going to say that he can say. And the other thing he pulled out in that announcement, hes still cooperating. Theyre ongoing things. So as a cooperating, ongoing person, i dont think its even an intelligent legal move, i think his lawyers finally got to that point. For all of that above, and thats why you saw the statement schiff and cummings put out, they got canceled on. They got it. And we have to step back and take politics out of it. The president just did a freddy pan tangela godfather, when they bring your brother and hes sitting right there, of all of the heinous things hes done, this is a new level and i saw it on a personal level. Let me press you on some of what you dingelled out there for us. Is the tweeting all or has the president or his associates, have they done the sorts of things Michael Cohen used to do to reporters and other people, have they harassed him privately . Im not aware of that. Im telling you what i know hes talked to me about and despondent to his family. I think most people who were in this kind of trouble, and most people at their core who are deeptd, the decent, their family kills them. Were so numbed and anesthetized the president got on the air and tweeted publicly, watch out, fatherinlaw. I dont know if thats obstruction of justice. I certainly know its obstructing what hes planning to do. Did he try to tamper with a witness . Was there contact from the president or his associates before cohen cooperated . Im not aware of that. Do you foe what this ongoing cooperation looks like . I do not know, but i know its ongoing and i think his counsel said to him, you know, i think any mueller had already said, look, you can do it but you cant touch anything in the investigation because i think mueller was very sensitive to standing in front of congress and saying no. So i think as far as where else hes cooperating, i think theyre ongoing things. And these things are continuing to evolve. So i dont think it made sense to him. I know hes anxious to do it. His instinct why he wanted to do it, if you watched Michael Cohen, hes one of those guys that gets himself in trouble and he almost wants to puke it out of him. He wants to come puke it out on our table, well host any day. He doesnt really want to puke it out, he wants to tell the story. Honestly for all of the dirty things he did after now he acknowledged was stupid, Blind Loyalty to donald trump, i could imagine he feels he wants to puke it out. Just at a serious level, if this is witness tampering, which the danger of nonlawyers covering stories, we googled witness tamper and it sure sound like what we found. Are there additional legal recourses for him . Im not legal, you would have to ask the counselor over here. But its very interesting when i was telling my story in the greenroom to glen kershner, he said i would call you as a witness. I said no, thanks. Look, lets be serious here, you have sort of been through this with him as his friend. I would be surprised if they didnt want to. People dont always remember im sure this has been traumatic. I suppose. Youre talking about how he feels about the president threatening him. He is i imagine an important witness in the Mueller Probe and fdny case. And when its not your own family, i remember going come on, michael, youre overreacting. He goes what if its your fatherinlaw . Or his wife and child. The president targeted his wife. Im not saying the president is responsible for this but the president has set a tone in this country of the most disgusting, vile things that come at his children, particularly his daughter, that is almost unconscionable. Joyce . So witness tamper is serious. Prosecutors take these situations with an incredible amount of seriousness because what it does when someone tries to intimidate a witness to keeps him from testifying is it keeps prosecutors from testifying to the matter. Theres a crime here. Your googling works well. Its 18 u. S. Code it took the fruits of my google search. Here it is. Tampering with a witness, whoever knowingly uses intimidation, threatness, corrupt or persuades another person or attempts to do so with an attempt to influence, delay or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding or cause or induce any person to hold testimony shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years or both. Thats exactly it. Using intimidation or even attempting to use intimidation, not just to keep somebody from testifying but even to delay them could constitute the crime of witness tampering. Of course, we know that the president cant be prosecuted for this crime. And so he may feel like he has a safe harbor there. Ultimately mig ultimately how it might play on the hill is a different question. But to take a step back who can and cannot be prosecuted, this is the president of the United States who would be a targets of this investigation but for his status as president. This is that target trying to keep a witness from testifying by threatening his family. Matt miller, this also has some echoes, i mean ultimately in the articles of impeachment for bill clinton, a lot of the conduct fell under obstruction of justice. There were, i believe, allegations of telling witnesses what to do or not do in front of the grand jury. This seems like something if it came to that juncture could very well appear in an article of impeachment. I agree with that. I think joyce hit the nail on the head. The president has been to some extent acting with impunity throughout this investigation into trying to tamper witnesses, praising witnesses who dont cooperate and criticizing witnesses who dont cooperate. Kind of acting like a mob boss throughout. Attacking the fbi for flipping people. Basically always taking the sides of lawbreakers over Law Enforcement agents. And i think the reason he acts like this is he knows very well the justice departments opinion he cant be indicted. So he thinks he can act with no consequences. But there ought to be some sanctions for this action. Whether i think the account of cohen thinking was very compelling. I think also he decided ultimately there wasnt much to gain in this hearing because he couldnt talk about the two investigations in which hes cooperating. He would just sit there and get beaten up by republicans. So this was a good reason to pull out. But the president shouldnt be able to escape this without a sanction. So if theres no criminal sanction, if there cant be any criminal sanction, that means it has to be a political sanction. If there is ever some kind of reckoning where the political environment changes sufficiently not that democrats feel they can move impeachment articles against him and feel confident of a conviction in the senate, this absolutely would have to be in the bill of particulars. Let me put up some of what matt miller just talked about. These are this is an illustration you just said of praising people he thought were not cooperating and tacking those who are. The president tweeted this i feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. Justice took a 12yearold tax case, among other things, applied other pressure on him, and unlike Michael Cohen he refused to break, make up stories to get a deal. Such respect for a great man. Paul manafort tried to flip on the president but he was such a pathological liar, he couldnt commit to mueller. He had his deal taken away from him. I think we offer such a keen insight the president views people around him, its a oneway street. He demands loyalty and gives very little back. I think its former fbi director comey that compared him to a mob boss. I have that. Hang on, lets watch. We will come right back to you. You said this was happening as a flashback to your early days as a prosecutor. I had a flash back investigating my days of the mafia. I felt this effort to make us all maybe this wasnt their intention but i felt it was to me, to make us all an mika nostra. Were all part of the messaging. Were all part of the effort. The boss is at the head of the table and were going to figure out together how to do this. How strange is it for to you sit here and compare the president to a mob boss . Very strange, and i dont do it lightly. And im not trying to, by that, by the way suggest President Trump is out breaking legs and shaking down shop keepers. Instead what im talking about is that Leadership Culture constantly comes back to me when i think about my experience with the Trump Administration. Thats exactly right. Thats how he ran the trump organization. At that point Michael Cohen was very much part of that mob mentality. Leg breaker. Hes running the situation the same way. We know his anger at Jeff Sessions is he felt sessions didnt have his back, sessions betrayed him by recusing himself in the russia probe. Following the law. Yes, choosing the law over loyalty of the president. I think cohen will be compelled to testify. Made clear, testifying before congress is not an option. Maybe it will be delayed but he will have to do it at some point. With he know mueller suggested there will be walls over the russia stuff n that regard there maybe there wouldnt be that much new in the investigation. But Michael Cohen have credibility issues . No doubt. But there will be a human face there whos going to tell in vivid detail conversations he with the president , and theres Something Different about reading it on a paper, hearing it in a court document, discussing it on a show like this and having someone there in front of Congress Talk about the president of the United States, instructing him to break the law. You know, matt miller, im reminded of Rudy Giuliani on sunday saying ive seen the tapes or on monday. It was either the cleanup or it was the the new yorker. The cleanup of the cleanup of the walkback i think. A quote in the new york. He said are you seeing tapes . He said i shouldnt have said that. The idea Michael Cohen doesnt represent an ongoing and political threat threat is too weak of a word, terror to this president would be false. The president responding to the raid on cohens apartment and offices by calling it an attack on the nation, in the middle of the shutdown talking about how cohen is afraid of the truth. All cohen has now is the truth. Only way to spend less time in jail, only way to protect his family is to tell the truth. A lot of people didnt know what Rudy Giuliani was talking about when he referred to tapes but i think the illusion youre making is right. I suspect was he was referring to was the evidence seized from cohens office bid the fbi and turned over to trumps legal team as part of their to sift out what is privilege and what is not. I expect Rudy Giuliani went and listened to the tapes Michael Cohen made of the president. There are probably other tapes, because he didnt go into a privilege fight, he has no idea whats on them. Michael cohen, having been with the president for 12 years through all of thinks real estate deals here, abroad, all over the place, being his fixer, is sitting on evidence about the president. By the way, some of the evidence almost certainly rempts to criminal behavior by the president. Weve seen him testify to that in court in the Southern District of new york. But hes probably got evidence about other things that may not rise to the standard of criminality, but would be grossly inappropriate behavior for someone holding the highest office in the land. For him to come testify to that publicly i think represents a grave threat to the president. Thats why youve seen him and his attorney act the way they have over the past few weeks. Corinne, we dont know what crimes mueller has unearthed around occlusion but we do know what crimes were implicated in new york. Michael cohen on or about august 16 at the coordination with and direction of trump, i arranged to make a payment to a second individual with information that would be harmful to the candidate and to the campaign to keep the individual from disclosing information. That is a crime. Hes been accused of it. The government sponsored that allegation in their sentencing document for cohen. Before he heads to jail, which is what, march you . March 5th, i think. We think he will talk in some form before then. He wants to. Im not sure what Congress Plans on doing. As you said, Congress Plans to compel to. Just detailing how individual one committed a crime, the crime of Campaign Finance the crime of Campaign Finance violation, not just paying somebody inappropriately or illegally but in a way that could have affected the outcome of the election, seems like a pretty big deal. It is a huge deal. But it reminds me when youre reading that, reminds me back in april, right, when the fbi raided cohens office, cohens home and the reaction we got from the president of the United States, which was what the fbi did was an attack on this nation. And now months later we know exactly why he feels this way. We talk about donald trump and president of the United States being a mobster, threatening people, witnesses as weve seen with cohen. But thats you know, its everything that donald trump does, everything that he does has this flavor of authoritarian tint on it. It is with him holding 800,000 hostages, the federal workers for his wall and knowing that mexico would pay for it. And now its this attack on Michael Cohens family. He does it just blatantly, out there for all of us to see. This is the president of the United States. And he needs to be held accountable. I believe democrats will do that. On a personal note, politics is pretty nasty. With all go with trumps but families are offbase. You leave families out of it. He does it all the time. Ted cruzs family he went after. His wife. And forget even the legal stuff, how about when he is asked the question, have you ever heard the president say anything racially defamatory . Its been written about but to hear him say it, every en masse, ten years by his side, last i looked other than staying away from the mueller investigation, any of those congressmen can go anywhere they want. I know those stories need to be told and will be told. I know he wants to and im sure theyll reschedule and go from there. If you had to make a prediction, do you think we will see his face and hear the store yeas youre talking about before he reports to jail . I know he wants to. I know he wants to. Everyone stays put. When we come back, Jared Kushner under investigation by the House Oversight committees. Lawmakers want to know how he got a clearance inside speeches of security. And nancy pelosi fights back. The speakerp essentially shutting down the state of the Union Address over the shutdown. The question this hour, where will President Trump go now to deliver his big speech . The obstruction of the deep state was the stated policy go of the president s former adviser steve bannon. Is that whats going on as we enter day three of the Government Shutdown . Stay with us. Shutdown . Stay with us [friend] ive never seen that before. I have. When cravings hit, hit back. I have. Choose glucerna, with slow release carbs to help manage blood sugar, and start making everyday progress. Glucerna. I never thought id say this but i found bladder leak underwear thats actually pretty. Always discreet boutique. Hidden inside is a super absorbent core that quickly turns liquid to gel. So i feel protected and pretty. Always discreet boutique. Means they wont hike your rates over one mistake. See, Liberty Mutual doesnt hold grudges. For drivers with accident forgiveness, Liberty Mutual wont raise their rates because of their first accident. Switch and you could save 782 on home and auto insurance. Call for a free quote today. Liberty mutual insurance. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. And the army taught me a lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Fighting grave breaches of National Security at the highest levels of the Trump Administration, the House Oversight committee today launched an investigation into the White House Security clearance process. Jared kushner likely to be thrust into the limelight in that probe as the Committee Seeks clarity on just how he gained access to classified materials after lying about his conduct to foreign leaders on his background form. Kushner also at the center of both the collusion questions under investigation by special counsel robert mueller, that includes that trump tower meeting with russians promising dirt on Hillary Clinton and the obstruction of justice inquiry, including the firing of fbi director jim comey, which kushner backed. The panel and matt miller are still here. Matt miller, this seems like something that can prove fertile ground. I had heard from one white house source trey gatti was suspicious enough about the professionalism or sanctity of the process to ask questions himself. Now that democrats are in control, this has to be a probe the white house saw coming. Yes, i think what you see here is elijah cummings, chairman of the House Oversight committee, probing the soft underbelly of the white house. What hes been able to get away with was not answering questions about this issue. Trey gatti, youre right, did ask questions but when the white house blew him off and didnt answer, he wasnt willing to send a subpoena or do a meaningful followup. The question about kushner is a serious one. The time line of how he got his security clearance continued to be shrouded in darkness. We know in february of last year, the Deputy Attorney general took i would say very unusual step of calling the white House Counsel to say that the security clearance was being delayed again. We then saw a few months later not the white house but kushners personal criminal defense attorney make the announcement he had been granted a security clearance, only to find out after the fact he wasnt given a full security clearance, he was given top secret but not given access to the level above that, secured compartmentalized information. So the questions that been outstanding are, was the fbis initial reluctance to gran the h grant the security clearance change or overruled . Did they abuse the security clearance process the same way they did to rob porter, who was able to receive clearance long after they received derogatory information about him. There was nocation, jonathan lamere, that there was some sort of exoneration t wou. It would appear they simply reached an impasse with the intelligence committee. He continues to have conversations with foreign leaders that its my understanding from former intel officials that are not logged or recorded in any sort of tradition. I dont know if its illegal but its not the traditional way phone calls and texts and what exchanges are recorded in terms of collecting all of that information for the purposes of protecting american interests in terms of communicating with foreign adversaries. Sure. Jared kushner always existed outside of the normal white house process, the great frustration of the former white house chief of staff john kelly, who tried to rein it in. Its the porter incident that triggered major questions of the background clearance when it was revealed he was accused not once but twice of spousal abuse and still had a backround check. That left a review white house wide how this process was done and led to kushner being downgraded but it was restored. But michael flynn, remember, was allowed to maintain his top security clearance even after if was learned the fbi was investigating he lied about talking to a russian ambassador. This is something thats an issue for the white house to route. This was an issue they knew was coming. This is on that white board, if you will, of investigations theyre preparing for they knew would start coming once the democrats took control of the house. We see today the first volley. Loalong those lines, democra have to walk a fine line in terms of whether theyre governing or just doing investigations. Im not suggesting whether Jared Kushner had the right security clearance isnt important but they have to pick and choose carefully where they point their guns. At some point you dont want to give the republicans, nobody is worrying about health care or opioids, so investigate, investigate, investigate. The first thing to come out, i was a little surprised. Let me push back, my dear friend. Jared kushner is sort of the pile of ethical and legal questions that no one can touch, john kelly couldnt have he didnt have any authority over him. He wasnt allowed. Hes repelled that there are candidates to work in this white house, hes really someone whos run amok of every process thats supposed to protect not just a white house but a president. I stand corrected, as i usually am wrong. Ill take it. Other than the democrats, theres nobody out there who trey gatti tried. Theres no one out there that can ask questions about how jared was able to touch classified information. Here are the flash points, in charge of middle east peace talks, opioid crisis, liaison to mexico and china. All of the people who have been caught up in this clearance, Jared Kushner, mike flynn, katey mcfarland, john bolt anticipate, rob porter. The list of people who have had access to classified information as well as the same time question about whether Foreign Government know more than the american government, seems to me a real flashing red light. Its a terrible problem. The reason for security clearances, you know, you dont go through that process just not for nothing. Its to prevent people who are actively working with a foreign power access to information, but also to keep people who are blackmailable from handling information. I have been investigated twice for both of my i was in the government, i left to do the campaign. I was investigated a second time. I had a higher security clearance. What do you in person is you wear theres nothing in your past that can be used against not you they dont care about you. Its not about you, jared, its about the u. S. Government. It seems like this is a crowd of people donald trump ripping up notes of his meetings that dont ever have the concerns of the government in mind. They dont. That is why i think with all due deference to donny i said i was wrong dont pile on. The name of my book is often wrong and never in doubt. Fair enough. But its a good bipartisan strty. This is not an overtly political action. The law the Trump Administration had to follow had to hand over information to congress to show they were complying with procedures with bipartisan enactment in 2018. They missed the deadline on it. This is a whole list of people who violated these procedures or violated what would be the procedure in any other white house. People who were under criminal investigation. People who were convicted. And he still had access to this sort of investigation. Matt miller, this as little inside insight but Michael Miller was in charge of his background process. She had done it for highprofile people entering government and making the transition from the private to be public sector. At some point she left that role and abby role took over, a different kind of lawyer. Can you break down why you need someone like jamie ga rilic and why you might need somebody like abby lowell . Jamie represents a lot of fame ois people and companies and does highlevel work. Abby lowell is a criminal defense lawyer who either gets out of being i dieted or off a trial if you are indicts. Thats the difference. When Jared Kushner became a sunt of the mueller investigation, he decided he needed a different kind of lawyer. And i think what remains to be seen is when he did get that topsecret clearance, that was interpreted. There was a reason his lawyer announced he got the security clearance, that was interpreted he was home free and wasnt going to be charged in the investigation. I think the questions that emerged afterwards about the except of his clearance and how it was granted sort of leave that question an open one. Whether abby lowell becomes a Trial Attorney for Jared Kushner down the road still is an open question. A lot of open questions thighs days. Matt miller, thank you for spending time with us. When we come back, nancy pelosi and donald trump locked in a game usf chiof chicken over nexs state of the Union Address. Thes at fidelity, we make sure you have a clear plan to cover the essentials in retirement, as well as all the things you want to do. Because when youre ready for what comes next, the only direction is forward. Smile dad. I take medication for high Blood Pressure and cholesterol. But they might not be enough to protect my heart. Adding bayer aspirin can further reduce the risk of another heart attack. Because my Second Chance matters. Be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. Lookin better than a body has a right to and shakin me up so applebees all you can eat is back. Now with shrimp. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. We know that when youre spending time with the grandkids every minute counts. And you dont have time for a cracked windshield. Thats why we show you exactly when well be there. Saving you time, so you can keep saving the world. Kids safelite repair, safelite replace what should i do . Maybe you can just go back. Yeah, pretend like it never hand. You mean, just walk into the staff meeting on monday morning like it never hand . Sure, youre an emotional person. People dont take you seriously. Just go back. Pretend the whole thing never hand. Never hand. That was George Constanza playing the part of donald trump, illustrating what were sure right here at the 4 00 must have been going on inside the oval office the last few days. Never mind nancy pelosi isnt inviting me to the state of the union, lets show up anyway. That was the gist behind his letter to the speaker earlier today, where he wrote, quote, i look forward to seeing you on the evening of the 29th in the chamber for the house of representatives. It would be so very sad for our country if the state of the union were not delivered on time, on schedule and very importantly on location. It didnt take long for his pen pal to and spod. Pelosis answer, not going to happen. Im writing to inform you that the house of representatives will not consider a concurrent resolution authorizing the president s state of the Union Address in the House Chamber until government has opened. Trump responded on camera this afternoon im not surprised. Its really a shame whats happening with the democrats. They have become radicalized. They dont want to see crime stopped. So we just found out shes cancelled it, and i think thats a great blotch on the incredible country that we all love. Its a great, great, horrible mark. We just found out she canceled it. That means someone explained what a concurrent resolution was to the president. Joining our conversation, charlie sykes, editor and chief of the bulwark and msnbc contributor. Charlie . I mean, wow. I mean, we were reminded once again the president snot that good a negotiator but he is on a streak now of picking fights that he doesnt seem to have an end game for, that he cannot win and he doesnt seem to realize he cant win. This is, of course, part of the problem where hes freelancing and he lives in the moment. But if he thought he was going to be able to bully and bulldoze nancy pelosi, he got a reality check this afternoon. Charlie, are you concerned i mean, what i hear when i hear the president talk is not somebody thats really that seems to be aware of the facts. Hes talking about delivering a speech on time and on location like hes still a reality tv actor of some sort. The federal government is shutdown. Fbi agents put out a report yesterday saying they cant take evidence to grand juries. Theyre being fed by food banks. Theyre calling friends and neighbors to pay for chemo. The very thing he says this is about, which is border security, hes threatening by really hampering and grinding to a halt the wheels of justice. By the way, thats a really important point because when you think about border security, the coast guard is not being paid, Border Agents are not being paid, the fbi is not being paid. These are the people, tsa agents are not being paid. What youre seeing is actually the president , who is shutting down the part of the government that is doing what he claims to care about the most, but he has other more important things to look at having his social media folks doctor his pictures and make his fingers look a little bit longer. Its hard to know where the president s head is at but i think hes realizing or perhaps should realize hes painted himself into a corner. I dont know hes got a way out. I think the only way he will get out of this is for the democrats to give him a fake wall and for him to pretend it is a real wall and he is, of course, capable of that. Hes a serial fashionlist and perhaps they can somehow maneuver him into standing in front of a nonwall and saying look at my big, beautiful wall. Im donald trump. I built this for you. Maybe they can make that lack of reality work for them. To charlies point he can create his own reality. Democrats say we will give you the 5. 6 billion and spend it the right way. Were not going to say you built a wall. They will make them soft of security. What trump will do is say thats what i meant, whats my wall of security. So what charlies saying, he will create that reality. This will be fascinating to watch, at Donald Trumps core, this is the fight he lives for. You cant come in the house. Yes, i can. If he was able to bring the military, he would. Look for trump to take over the rose bowl and say hes having a crime summit and rally, is he going to speak somewhere. These are the fights on a personal, human level, school yard level, can he not walk away from. This will be fascinating to watch. I think donald trump should be thanking nancy pelosi. The state of the union is partially shutdown. Why would you want to be giving a speech when 800,000 people are furloughed, many not getting paid . Its hurting thousands on top of that, their families. Shes doing him a favor. He gave a speech in the oval office, it didnt move his numbers. He gave a speech this weekend at the diplomatic reception room. It didnt move his numbers. If anything, people if anything, hes being blamed more for the shutdown and people still dont want this wall. So she did him a favor and one more thing too, when youre talking about the state of the union, past president s have leading up to the state of the union have put together an agenda, have talked about their policies that theyre going to have for the year. What are we getting from this president , a jingle, build a wall, crime will fall . This is what hes doing. Its a sham. And he is a horrible negotiator. Jonathan . Yes. Theres certainly a frustration in the white house. Really . Yes at him or her . No, at the situation, that theyve lost this. I think if youre Speaker Pelosi, you want to make the president feel the impact of the shutdown for a president , we know his lack of empathy, you dont display sob stories of federal workers getting paychecks, you take away his national stage. That what hes done here and had a visceral reaction to this more than the 800,000 workers out of their paychecks. He will give a speech that night. I have an idea. I used to dabble in politics. Why doesnt nancy pelosi say you can come. Im going to be at the food bank that the fbi has set up because youre not paying them, so they cant feed their families. And heres what were going to do with all of our seats, as democrats, were giving all of our seats to furlough federal workers and you look them in the eye, you coward, and you tell them why they dont have two paychecks . Why doesnt she call his bluff . You may have a future in this. At the very least the democratic response after the state of the union if he gives a speech shouldnt be schumer and pelosi, it should be these workers and people telling their stories. Somewhere it should be fbi agents whose informants have gone to work to the other side because they cant pay their phone cards. That report was chilling, joyce vance. You used the word sham, hes a sham president. The idea hes for law and order is bs. There are people in charge of law and order who report to him through the justice department, who cannot pay their informants, who cannot fund the phone cards they talk to, kourncounterintelt agents can never continue Counter Terror cases, intel cases, real stuff. All of the work comes to a halt because you cant under law spend Money Congress hasnt sent to your agency. So we hear these stories, ideas we could all readily understand. If you cant pay your informants, your informants are going to work for you. That means cases cannot go to grand jury. Things as mundane as certified copies of convictions prosecutors need to use to get their cases to go forward. Payment for grand juries so they can consider indictments are oob sent. The entire process of justice grinds to a halt as this goes forward and the courts have already said around the end of the month, their budget begins to look bleak. We dont have prosecutors. We dont have a court estimate. Theres your law and order president for you. Its a shame. After the break, if youre wondering why donald trump and his west wing seem unfazed by the human calamity of the Government Shutdown, we have a possible explanation for you. The destruction of the state may have been the goal all along. Have been the goal all along your brain is an amazing thing. But as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. Thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. The secret is an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. And i dont add trup the years. S. But what i do count on. Is boost® delicious boost® high protein nutritional drink has 20 grams of protein, along with 26 essential vitamins and minerals. Boost® high protein. Be up for life. Whoooo. Did you know the exact same hotel room. Can have many different prices . Thats why tripadvisor searches over 200 booking sites to find the lowest price on the hotel you want. Your Perfect Hotel room for the perfect price as the shutdown drags into its second month, new polling shows seven out of ten americans believe the border wall is not worth shutting the government down over, and as peter baker writes in the new york times, democrats accuse mr. Trump of hostage taking tactics. But among the hostages has been his own presidency. The standoff has already forced mr. Trump to cancel a trip to europe to meet with Global Business leaders and davos, at a time the World Economy faces a possible slowdown. The president has made no evident progress in filling a series of vacancies nor has he fulfilled the taxcutting plan he promised last year. Hes done nothing in weeks to publicly promote priorities Like Fighting opioid abuse or bolstering the economy. Could the chaos of a shutdown be the ultimate goal . Remember steve bannon . This is what he told the daily beast back in 2016. Im a leninist. Shocked, the reporter asked him what he meant. Lenin, he answered, wanted to destroy the state and thats my goal too. I want to bring everything crashing down and destroy all of todays establishment. Charlie and the table are still here. Charlie, former senior Law Enforcement official pointed out this is really the only work sort of like his reflective protectionist impulse, this is the only other pure policy reflex weve seen in the president , the distrust of the Intelligence Community going back to his election through the transition and ongoing through the presidency, constant war against Law Enforcement, the constant war against the truth, journalism. What do you think of this shutdown in his mind . Do you agree this to him was some progress towards that end . I dont know because that implies some sort of Strategic Vision or ideological principle on the part of the president. Fair enough. But i think he used the right word, reflex. And i think hes inch different to the chaos it causes. I think he embraces the chaos. He believes his base does not care about the government workers. Hes clearly unmoved by them. But if your goal is shut down, bring it all down, do you start by defunding the border security, the coast guard, fbi, would that be what you would want to do . They may be rationalizing after the fact but, again, this was not something that is designed, that is planned, ha has any point. Can i make one other point about the state of the union and going back to jonathan lameres point, think about all of this from Donald Trumps point of view. The one thing that i think hes obsessed about is his legitimacy as president. One of the reasons he will not admit what the Intelligence Community said about the russian interference and what nancy pelosi has done has been to strip one of the things donald trump cares about the most deeply, which is all of the pomp and ceremony and circumstance of the presidency, and it does undermine i think his selfimage and i think it chips away at his sense of legitimacy as president. I dont think he will regard this as a gift. I dont think this is a fight he ever thought he would have. I think hes going to be immensely frustrated the more he realizes what hes lost and being denied as president. To understand the mindset of the shutdown, beyond having no empathy, sociopathic, not understanding how this affects 800,000 lives, and i have seen it before, they need to break it it so they can fix it. Theyre not feeling vital or alive unless they create a chaos and come to save it. Theres a certain type of ceo what has he ever saved . He doesnt. By the way, when he was in his own little universe, i promise you every presentation for a building he would say this sucks and move a sucks and he moved k over here, i saved it. We know he has been fuelled by insecurity. That is why we had a shaim proed that does drive him where the trappings is one of the grandest stage thats a president can get. I think Speaker Pelosi realized that would be very effective to take that away from him. The president has been reduced, but here, there is no other attempts at infrastructure. There was no progress on things like op like opioids. I asked him today about the wall, and he pivoted two seconds later. And he never vifts off of this at all and for the first time i dont want to talk about the wall. It means he practiced his speech to maybe a wall. But the last two years trump spent his presidency not being told no, right . Everything that he has done that has been awful and evil, Congress Allowed it to happen. Finally you have nancy pelosi, a powerful woman telling donald trump no, i dont think he was ever expecting that. I think he knew about the oversight hearings. There has been reports that nancy pelosi is strategic and smart, but the first time he gave a state of the union people said he was president ial finally. He was elevated into the presidency which he loved and ate that up. I think that is part of it too. Donald trump finally lost his patie patience with rudy. Patie patience with rudy les on airline purchases well, you earn double miles on this and on everything with the venture card. Thanks hey, by the way, howd you get in here . Same way you did. Crosschecking. Nice. Whats in your wallet. Oh, cmon you have 4. 3 minutes this time,to yourself. Rn. This calls for a taste of cheesecake. Philadelphia cheesecake cups. Rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. Find them with the refrigerated desserts. Burning of diabetic nerve pain these feet raised a bouncing boy and climbed the ladder in the hardware business. But i couldnt bear my diabetic nerve pain any longer. So i talked to my doctor and he prescribed lyrica. Lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions, suicidal thoughts or actions. Tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worse depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. Common side effects dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain, swelling of hands, legs, and feet. Dont drink alcohol while taking lyrica. Dont drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. Those whove had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. Now i have less diabetic nerve pain. Ask your doctor about lyrica. We all know that trump likes nothing more than people going on tv to defend him. Our friend Jonathan Lamire says that the president was frustrated with giuliani. One source close to the president told me regarding giulianis recent behavior that being that inside the trump would can be disoriented. The president has appreciated that juligiuliani is out there, is a human smoke screen. Also, there are not many other people that would do that job for trump. He is appreciative of that. Sntt he the only one that defended him when the access hollywood tapes came out. Yeah, they put out a statement discussing that buzzfeed story. They were meant to be a victory lap but he stepped on it. People close to the president say he was very frustrated. The president will not fire him, he may stop doing interviews, and they want him to be on a shorter list going forward. Cry me a river is my reaction to this. I dont think he is a fool on television. I think he knows just enough to do serious harm to the president on television, and the two things he said, he was talking about the president s answers to mueller when he said conversations about trump tower moscow went on until election day. That is an answer they gave, and rudy nose just enough about what is in those written answers to try to carve out space for those answers to hold up to the point when they have to be made public or ongoing conversations with the special councils office. And that tape, seems too, not to be an utterance, but to be a window into what rudy knows. As many times as he has stumbled into these and not been fired, you have to believe the president likes what he is seeing. There must be a method to the madness. If the jury is going to hear bad facts, you front them out. That is what i think julianny does and he creates a chaos and no one can focus on the issues. The hope is at the end of the day that will stay with the american people. I think he revealed and sw developed a new program. So who cares if he colluded, we love russia, she socializing all of the president s crimes and trespasses so he doesnt get convicted in the senate. Thats right, the end game is make all of the facts so out there that people are numb by the time they hear them from mueller. They brought up that the president did reimburse Michael Cohen. There is a method to some of what he does. Charlie, you want the last word . Yay, i know that people think there is a method to his madness, im leaning more toward the madness. Sometimes things are exactly what they look like and Rudy Giuliani as i told you a few weeks ago looks like grand pa simpson most of the time. I cant top that. Thank you all for being here. That does it for our hour, im nicole wallace, mtp daily t t starts now. Hi, nicole. Im told it is wednesday. Whatever day it is, someone said flat circle day. Thats a good one. Have a good show. The state of our union is a shut show. Dirty minds all of you, su