Referred by mueller to the u. S. Attorney in manhattan always represented the gravest legal threat to donald trump. This source suggesting that those prosecutors could send their investigative findings to the hill at any time. The threat becoming reality in a court filing that implicates donald trump personally for directing an illegal scheme to defraud voters in the 2016 election. The debate that has ensued isnt about whether or not the president is guilty of Campaign Finance violations, but whether and when you can indict a sitting president. The former director of the fbi, jim comey, weighed in last night. Is the president of the United States right now an unindicted coconspirator . I dont know. Not in the formal sense that hes been named in an indictment where you can actually say that this defendant and named others or others by pseudonym conspired together. And thats how you formally name someone as an unindicted coconspirator. If hes not there, youre certainly close given the language in the filing that the crimes are committed at his direction. If trump wasnt the president and someone went to court in the Southern District of new york, sponsored information that they directed a crime, what would happen to that person . Well, that person would be in serious jeopardy of being charged because the government wouldnt make that sponsoring allegation if they werent seriously contemplating Going Forward with criminal charges. And that serious contemplation of criminal charges may explain this reporting from the New York Times. Quote, the prosecutors in new york have examined the statute of limitation on the Campaign Finance violations. And believe charges could be brought against mr. Trump if he is not reelected. According to a person briefed on the matter. Here to take us through these dramatic developments, some of our favorite reporters and friends. Frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, former u. S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant attorney general, harry litman, eli stokols for the l. A. Times, kim atkins for the boston herald. Frank figliuzzi, i havent had a chance to talk to you since the weight of what was put in writing on friday settled in on official washington and the trump legal team. Your thoughts . With regard to the Southern District of new york filing, lets understand something. If donald trump was not currently the president of the United States, hed be looking at an indictment in a matter of weeks, not months. In fact, he might already have been indicted if he were not president. Its the the new york charges are the simplest set of facts to get your hands around legally. He was directing this activity, allegedly, and the activity is far more than simply trying to keep women quiet that youve had an affair with. Were talking about directing things like bank fraud, money laundering, wire fraud, federal Campaign Election violations. And then perhaps using your own company, your own organization as a slush fund for your campaign. All of this is deeply problematic. Southern district of new york is known historically as the sovereign district of new york. What does that mean . It means they are the 500pound gorilla among u. S. Attorneys. Theyll acknowledge the existence of doj headquarters and look at memos and acknowledge about indicting or not a sitting president and then go forward and do what they need to do. And remember who is the head of the u. S. Attorneys office in the Southern District . A trump appointee. A trump appointee, a close friend and associate, close associate of don mcgahn. Pretty hard to wage a sphere campaign against him the way they have against Robert Mueller. And i wonder, frank figliuzzi, if the fact the president has focused all of his attention, all of his energy maligning Robert Mueller and his prosecutors and absolutely none of his energy softening the ground for his very pliable base about the Southern District. If the Southern District isnt going to be the office that goes, as you just said, Sovereign Office goes around main doj and sends their investigation to congress. That possibility was floated to me by a republican ally of this president over the weekend. Well, you are reporting just now that there has been some information that they are looking at statute of limitations on these violations. Thats a clue that they are weighing, when does this run out . Do we need to indict under seal and hit him after he leaves . Can we bring this before the house . When do we do that . How does that impact a potential criminal prosecution . Can they go on simultaneously . All of that is probably being discussed right now in manhattan. And it should give trump great concern. And weve seen indication of that because weve already seen him say things like, hey, this whole payment thing was a private matter. My attorney, you know, made that happen. So were beginning to see the concern manifested in tweets, and i predict well see much more of that. Harry litman, i want you to weigh in on the language. Former fbi director jim comey, very careful in selecting his language in that clip we just played. I got to talk him last night and i was surprised he used the language sponsored. He said the Southern District of new york is sponsoring the information that we first heard Michael Cohen attest to in his guilty plea over the summer. The first guilty pleas to those seven charges. Comey then described them as being sort of made more official or having more weight when the Southern District of new york, those prosecutors sponsored that claim. Does that mean there was more evidence or it was corroborated or now believe that cohens assertion about trump directing that hush money scheme is true . What it means is theyve put their reputation behind it. And frank is dead on. Its not simply the seriousness of the crimes. Theres a whole couple pages in the memo explaining their gravity as far as the election goes and the deprivation of transparency that it worked. They anticipated this argument of trump that its a simple private transaction and they were ready to say, no, it isnt. And, yes, they are geared up and, you know, at this point in the movie, it would be their sword is at his neck and his sword has been disarmed. And they are ready to plunge. I mean it is really right there. And, remember, in every in past impeachments with clinton and nixon, the issue was, was there a crime . And it was considered that that would be tantamount to an impeachable offense. Now we have a debate ensuing. Its a proper debate, but its different. There seems to be a general acknowledgme acknowledgment, yes, theres criminal activity. The Southern District and mueller is are within an inch of proving it. And theres the separate question of, does that make it impeachable . Very different kind of dynamic, and the Republican Senate has to come to grips with it and fast. Eli, i want to stay on this because it seems really important to me. The federal government, the justice department, the Southern District of new york has said that they are now in possession of enough evidence to do what harry just said. To stake their reputation on this evidence. I want to read you what Chris Christie said about it because he was a u. S. Attorney in new jersey. He seems to understand and have internalized this in a way that Rudy Giuliani and the president have not yet. Lets listen to Chris Christie yesterday. The only thing that would concern me if i were the president s team this morning about this memo is the language. The language sounds very definite. What id be concerned about is what corroboration do they have . In my experience, the problem is, when prosecutors are that definitive, theyve got more usually than just one witness. Now the flip side for the prosecutors is, they better have more than one witness on this because if you are shooting at the president of the United States and the only bullet in your gun is Michael Cohen, well, then i think thats a problem. Eli, no one from the president s legal team came out and said that, but that seems to be the prevailing opinion among democratic and republican legal experts. Well, and youve seen the president attacking Michael Cohen and basically asking the public to dismiss what hes saying by saying, look, this guy is just trying to get a better deal for himself. Dont believe him. But as Chris Christie pointed out, the Mueller Investigation, Southern District of new york, they probably have a lot more evidence than just the word of Michael Cohen. And that has to worry the president. Yes, he and Rudy Giuliani on some level believe they can continue to attack the investigators, to try and convince the public that theres something nefarious and something politically motivated about this. But when all the facts are laid out and people can see the investigators work, its going to be very problematic for this president and there is some understanding, i think, inside the white house of just how dark it may be getting, especially in terms of conversations, private conversations that people there are having with republicans on the hill who are starting to be concerned. This if it goes forward are starting to tell me privately some of them that, you know, if theres obvious evidence, the bottom is going to fall out. Theyre not going to be able to stand by this white house. And thats a looming problem for the president. Eli, let me ask you about what i heard from a republican ally of this president that the Southern District of new york could, in short order, without all of the hoopla and politicking and the attacks from the president , they could transmit their findings to congress if they want to. They could. And its much harder to stop whats happening in that office as opposed to with the special counsels investigation. This train has left the station. Theres really nothing that this white house can do about it. I think thats a source of frustration to the president. Also, its difficult to politicize. Its difficult to go out and demonize that office because, as you pointed out already, thats a trump appointee running that office. Harry, let me read you something jerry nadler said. Someone that, if he hasnt already been on the receiving end trumps barbs, he may have that to look forward to. Hell have a lot to do with whether and or how there are impeachme menmen menment procee this president. Talking about all the threats legally to the president. One of the threats was collusion with the russians. One was obstruction of justice and third, that the president was at the center of a massive fraud against the American People. The president seemingly obsessed, obsessed with the idea that hes big enough, Strong Enough to win all by himself like a big boy. He didnt need vlad. It looks like his own conspiracy proved he was not clean enough to win all by himself. He had Michael Cohen and all the indignities that entails, cover up his sexual relationships with women. Yeah, it does seem like he had a whole the times is also reporting about 14 different kinds of contacts and, remember, all the discussion about pardons, et cetera, cant apply to his close circle and family. Jared kushner and donald trump jr. Who have a particular kind of peril here as well. But i think this notion of synergy amplifies what youre saying because its, yes, its also he couldnt be a big boy on the political side, but he was also trying to be his own big boy the really ugly aspect of this is the sense that he was trying to run for president for his own profit and to feather his commercial nest and russia and he saw that as a joint project kind of hidden from the American People. Thats just going to be a theme Going Forward that hell be hard pressed to disavow. Heather, harry made this turn for us nicely. The other revelation friday was that this synergy, that was the word used by prosecutors, with russia, was offered to the trump orbit years before we previously knew, before that filing on friday. If you look at all the cheating, the cheating is unbelievable. The smallness. The corruption, the cheating. It would appear he cheated by illegally spending money to cover up sexual relationships. It would appear he tried to cheat by helping russia help him win the presidency. And it would appear that hes cheating again by trying to obstruct the investigation into all of this. This is somebody who right before he took office settled a 25 million fraud case for Trump University that he had defrauded people who had staked their hopes and dreams on becoming a businessman like him. This is someone who has been bankrupt multiple times and who, for those of us who live around atlantic city, you know, you cant hear the trump name in that town without folks spitting to the ground. This is not a surprise. This is someone who has tried in every single way to evade taxes from the very beginning. That first that bombshell New York Times story that got lost in the news of the day. We spent days on it. It didnt get lost here. But this is a part of his character. And the question is, is there going to be somebody, whether its congress or the Southern District of new york or the department of justice that will finally hold this person accountable . Because the hypocrisy is so, so glaring. When you have a zero tolerance policy from this white house for a refugee seeking haven in the United States, whereas he and his associates are supposed to be able to get off scotfree because its all out in the open because, for example, on june 27th or july 27th, he said to a press conference, russia, go look into her emails, then that night they did, that is still something that should be beyond the pale for someone who has sworn an oath to uphold the constitution. Theres this parlor game in washington. Where is he more guilty . Is it obstructing the investigation where its laid bare in his warning twitter feed . Is it collusion . We see all these drips and drabs about roger stone and corsi and jared and Paul Manafort and his son being in that meeting. Now it seems to me the parlor game could have you believe its the charges in the cases out of the Southern District, and a friend and ally of the president said it was always going to be the women. The women. Its sort of the oldest story in politics. Could it be true . I think its different. I think its all of the above. These things that are happening. For a long period of time people thought it was going to be obstruction and not collusion. Oh, look, now theres this evidence that could be collusion. Oh, look now the payments made to these women are coming back. I think its a collection of all of them that pose both legal and political peril to this president. If you compare this to the last impeachment of bill clinton, the linchpin of that was the fact he lied under oath about a sexual relationship that he had. And that went all the way to impeachment. If you compare what is actually happening, it seems very difficult to imagine how this would not be a direct threat to the presidency. At the same time, you hear in congress this trepidation about bringing articles of impeachment. Well, the senate is not going to impeach him anyway. Theyre not going to convict him anyway. If we bring forward impeachment, the next president is going to get impeached by something and its going to be its just how far we have come as a nation from the norms that we had in the past when even perjury, period, is enough. You are president. You cant do that. Were going to hold you responsible. Now theres a question as to whether its even going to reach that level. Thats remarkable. Frank figliuzzi, can you jump back in and also sort of fill in for us what the significance is of the maria butina case which was not part of the Mueller Investigation. It was handled out of the National Security division at the justice department. And just give me your analysis if you think the fact that mueller sent some cases to the Southern District of new york. He may or may not have sent other cases other places. We dont know that yet. This is a case involving a russian trying to influence the election in Donald Trumps favor using some of our political levers. I think through the nra. And it was investigated and charged to the National Security division. Any significance to that . Oh, you bet there is. And it will become extremely significant if we see a Cooperation Agreement entered into. If this guilty plea, and most are in these circumstances, is tied to a Cooperation Agreement, then look out because we have a woman that was being directed out of russia. She was getting and penetrating into the nra. She had thanksgiving dinner with congressmen. She was at the Prayer Breakfast or arranging russian Intelligence Officers to get to the national Prayer Breakfast. This opens a can of worms that could shed a whole lot of light on russian money flowing to more than just a campaign or the president ial candidate but rather perhaps others in congress, house, senate members, the whole connection to the nra. If shes cooperating on a high level, theres a whole other aspect to this. And is it part of muellers strategy to have farmed this one out to see where it goes or to insulate himself and protect himself . Yes, indeed. Thank you for that. You are sticking around. Harry litman and eli, thank you for starting us off. After the break, donald trump is a possible target of blackmail . Its what mike flynn was fired for. Why is donald trump Still Standing . And are Donald Trump Tweets witness tampering . The former director of the fbi weighed in on both of those topics. Well show you his answers. Also siege warfare. Thats whats ahead according to new reporting in the Washington Post. Stay with us. 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You look at this white house now and its hard to imagine two fbi agents ending up in the same room. How did that happen . I sent them. Something we i probably wouldnt have done or maybe gotten away with in a more organized investigation. More organized administration. The fbi wanted to send agents into the white house itself to interview a senior official. You would work through the white House Counsel and there would be discussions and approvals and it would be there, and i thought its early enough, lets just send a couple guys over. That was jim comey talking about mike flynn who was Donald Trumps first National Security adviser. Mike flynn please e pleaded gui lying. But the problem was flynn wasnt just that he lied about his contacts with russians and got caught doing it, it was that he was a potential target for blackmail by the rush yasians because they could leverage those lies over him. I asked jim comey if donald trump didnt pose the same threat . Sally yates testified before congress that she had to come over and tell the white house that mike flynn was a potential target for blackmail because the russians knew the truth. Why wouldnt donald trump be a similar target for blackmail, until two weeks ago, the russians knew more than we did about Donald Trumps interests in doing business in moscow. I want to be a little careful here with you because i dont want to talk about things i know from the investigation from the election to when i was fired. Its, obviously, a concern about any public official if theres significant information that would expose them to embarrassment or to liability that a foreign adversary knows. Those are leverage points. Its the reason we told him about the prostitute business. We didnt know whether it was true or not and frankly didnt really care except we wanted to do a defensive briefing. So in case theres something to it, we undermine the adversarys ability to use it as leverage by telling the person it might be blackmail. The fbi knows all about this. Joining us at the table, columnist and author mike lupika and michael steele. Heather, kim and frank are still with us. Michael steele, wow. I interviewed him for over an hour. That was the only time he said those words, i have to be careful because of what i know about the investigation from the Time Starting at his election and going through my firing. The only answer, the only thing he wouldnt answer was whether or not donald trump wasnt a potential target for blackmail. I think thats the crux of what sort of feeds this story line for mueller is connecting all those dots. Everyone who is a player, the 14 that have been identified and many others potentially out there who are still going to be named, indicted or charged in some way. It just tells you how deep this really is and how much donald trump really should be afraid of what this means for not just his administration but for him personally. He seems to think, mike and i were talking about this earlier. He seems to think all this ends when mueller sends out his report. Youve got state charges, probably additional federal charges that could come from this. And it all hinges on how he did business. For him, everything was a transaction. And he saw it as innocent. As we now know, and as comey indicated in that just that little snippet, this ran a lot deeper and involved a lot more than certainly trump wants to admit. Mike, this was clear to me. He kept we got into the difference between the investigation into Trumps Campaign and the Hillary Clinton email investigation. And he kept coming back to the idea this was a counterintelligence investigation. This involved really bad potential american adversaries. And the reason that wasnt made public was to protect their leads. To protect the evidence. They had four people under investigation. Four trump associates. I tried guessing. He wasnt too much help. What do you make of the fact that donald trump was briefed about a pee tape from moscow because they didnt want him to be blackmailed over that, but after he became the nominee of the republican paerkrty, he was still trying to build trump tower moscow. The trump tower in moscow, its, like in the old Alfred Hitchcock movies there was always a mcguffin. It might turn out to be that deal because mike and i were talking about this. This is death by a thousand cuts with donald trump right now. Its just arthur ashe once described mcenroes game, a nick here, a nick there and pretty soon youre bleeding to death. I just wonder if this guy is aware enough to understand how deep these wounds are. And i think he has underestimated mueller from the start. Yeah. This is an incredibly careful man. This man is not going to put a Great American life like hes pushing chips to the middle of the table without knowing he has got every t crossed and every i dotted. Go ahead. I was just going to say that theres a sense, and i was on meet the press and there with a Republican Former governor who was trying to defend this when the news first came and when the kremlin just confirmed they had been in talks with this moscow deal. Can we how bizarre that is. We got confirmation from the kremlin so its a go. That our president had in fact lied to the American People. He sat there and was unable what is the defense to that . He was unable to acknowledge the facts. And this is what ryan paul did as well on the Campaign Finance. He said if you misclassify some things or fill out some forms wrong, thats a big problem. Its like, wait a second. This is hush money. Its that same issue where we know that, in fact, donald trump knew that this was a problem because he lied to the American People about it. Now he is saying its no big deal. The republican spin, its no big deal. Its a a little commercial deal. But he had to say multiple times, i have no business dealings in russia. Nobody i know has had contacts or deals with any russians. He said that over and over again. He knew it was a problem. And we are to stay clear about that piece. And it could be an even bigger problem because he lied to the American People but we dont know what he said to federal investigators. We dont know what everyone in his administration has said to members of congress. If he lied to them, those are additional felonies. In all of this. And the president , to the messaging part, it seems the focus at least until now has been trying to discredit Robert Mueller personally, as if thats going to end this in some way. And there has been little, if any, defense on the facts of whats happening. Now were seeing, oh, this is just a private transaction. Thats one of the first times that were actually seeing acknowledging it. Let me bring frank in. What did you hear when you heard the former director of the fbi describe how careful he had to be in answering, you know, the cable host asking if the president wasnt just like mike flynn in that the russians knew something we dont know and he would have had an interest in keeping that secret. I think it was almost a slip, nicole. For the first time weve heard comey imply accidentally that he does have more knowledge than we have on the topic of compromise. And im not necessarily saying that has to do with the infamous allegations involving the ritzcarlton moscow, but i think it has to do with something. And he knows more investigatively from his days as director. And i think it was a slip and i think its significant. I also want to bring up a related issue on this compromise thing. And that is that im not seeing fully explored. And thats the issue of conflict of interest. Now what i mean by that is, lets assume as the days unfold, we have decisions that have to be made on a geopolitical scale involving russia. Whether its a submarine off our coast. Whether its naval aggression against ukraine. Whether its crimea or chechnya, i no longer have any confidence i didnt have any to degin with but now with the filings on friday, that this president can act in a National Interest and not in his own selfinterest. Whether hed overcompensate and be overly aggressive in a decision or whether he needs to back off and go leanient. I see a huge issue involving conflict here that i dont hear anyone addressing. Frank, let me press you. You make a really good point. Would you go so far so far all the publicfacing policies are in the latter category. Hes gone too leanient. So far as to believe Vladimir Putin over the u. S. Intelligence community. Would you go so far as to suggest that he continues to be compromised . Do you think hes acting in the interest of the russians . I dont think hes i dont think hes capable anymore of making unilateral decisions that are truly, solely in the National Interest when it comes to russia. Wow. He chose not to meet with Vladimir Putin in argentina, right . That was window dressing. Thats just a small example of where he didnt have to call off a meeting with putin but felt he needed to for the need of optics. How far do we take that and are we going to see naval aggression or something that shouldnt result in that . I wonder if he needs to have other people in the room, mattis and others to witness and weigh in so that no unilateral decision is made that can be secondguessed. You gave us a reassurance it doesnt happen with donald trump. He met alone in a room with kim jongun and with Vladimir Putin. Even a casual pull aside took place with Vladimir Putin and Vladimir Putins translator. We dont even have that safeguard, frank. Yeah, the guardrails arent there. And we had what any semblance of adult supervision that was left with regard to general kelly and his departure, boy, his supervision wasnt successful. We have no one wanting to step up and be chief of staff. This is a real concern when someone is dealing with our leading adversary. And i think is compromised in a way that prevents him from making the most logical judgments. Mind blown, check. Thanks to frank figliuzzi. When we come back, could they be moving the chairs around on the deck of the titanic . It seems potential candidates have that impression. The Trump White House goes hunting for another new, new chief of staff. That story is next. Were about to move. Karate helps. Relieve some of the housebuying. Stress. At least you dont have to worry about homeowners insurance. Call geico. Geico. Helps with. 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Just wait, the Washington Post reporting, facing the dawn of his third year in office and bid for reelection, trump is stepping into a political hailstorm. Some allies fret the president s coalition could crack apart under the growing pressure. Steve bannon, the former chief strategist who helped him navigate the most arduous part of his 2016 campaign predicted 2019 would be a year of siege warfare and cast the president s inner circle as naively optimistic and unsophisticated. Its this administration under siege that cant staff its top post. First reported by the wall street journal, trumps first pick for chief of staff nick ayers says thanks but no thanks. He didnt want to commit to the president s twoyear time table which did not go over well at this white house. One former Senior Administration official called it a humiliation for mr. Trump and his Adult Children and an emotion the president tries to avoid at all costs. Joining the conversation, Washington PostNational Political reporter, who has a byline on that story, robert costa. The panel is still here. I read this story. Its mind blowing that someone like steve bannon is trying to speak truth to the president s inner circle through the Washington Post. It is quite a moment to have bannon on the outside giving that kind of advice. What a turn of events. You see this white house bracing for 2019, working with the great phil rucker on this story. We call all around the white house. The president s inner circle. Trying to get a sense of whats happening. You really had this white house that is leaving the john kelly era and trying to figure out whats next but Rudy Giuliani on the outside helping the president navigate mueller. Emmitt flood and the white House Counsels on the inside. But politically they dont have a lodestar. They are trying to figure out how to get this white house and the whole Republican Party pulling together as things only get worse as the subpoenas fly. You guys write that rather than building a war room to manage the intersecting crises as past administrations have done, the Trump White House is understaffed, stuck in a bunker mentality and largely resigned to a plan to wing it. Political and Communications Operatives are mostly caking their cues from the president and legislate him drive the message with his spontaneous broad sides. It seems the president is unable to contemplate what was very dle clear to him on election night. He didnt write a victory speech because he didnt think it was vast enough to have won. He seems to have forgotten what even he was aware of two years ago. Theres a paralysis within this white house thats pervase biff how to handle the Mueller Investigation and everything you justice listed because they feel if they start to meddle rhetorically even in the Mueller Investigation, a white house staffer could have to have a personal lawyer, maybe vulnerability when it comes to obstruction of justice. Everyone is treading carefully, letting the president be out there tweeting, doing whatever he does. But theres also this sense that because they were disorganized during the campaign, they never really had when bannon and priebus were there or john kelly, a political shop that was humming. Now to have the republicans losing the house majority, theyre counting on mark meadows, the possible next chief of staff and jim jordan to be their surrogates. Beyond that, this is not a white house centered operation. Its so amazing that even the white house chief of staff as a job is debased under trump. Yeah. I have wondered for some time who he actually listens to within the walls of the white house. We know he listens to hannity and jeannine pirro. Giuliani was helping him negotiate mueller i thought giuliani is about to steps away from during a commercial that says, hi, have you been injured in the workplace . But who is he listening to . Who is speaking common sense to this man when it looks like the roof is about to come off the white house . And i dont know who the answer who is the adult in the room right now . Robert, you want to jump back in on that . Im sure you know. Giuliani at this point is in the president s ear. He is talking to mark meadows all the time but you cannot forget the president as someone who came out of a family business, relies on Jared Kushner and ivanka trump. And its Jared Kushner who is an informal shadow chief of staff based on conversations with trump msofficials that is alway now around the president especially with john kelly heading for the exit. The president isolated often, reacting to the media and the family. Not really tethered to the Republican Party. Its jared and ivanka who installed Heather Nauert in that position. Jared and ivanka picked ayers who has represented some of the seedier characters in republican politics. A big defeat. Some egg on their face today. How do you think this is going to go . Exactly the way its going right now. The way its going. Swimmingly. This is going the way trump wants it to go because to your point, trump doesnt listen to anybody because he knows all. When you are the wizard of oz, you know all because you are all. And he doesnt need all these other pieces. We sit back and we kind of look at this and were surprised and were taken aback. But trump told us straight up where he was coming from. I know all i know more than my generals. I know more than the smartest people in this town. Im going to hire the best people. How did that work out . But even that was kind of a sleight of hand move by him. His description of best is how much they listen to him, not that they are the best people for the job. Look at the incoming person to head up the state department, the u. N. I would not put a spokesperson in as the u. N. Ambassador. But trump put someone in who will listen to him and parrot back what he wants. This whole deal of who is listening to trump and who he is listening to doesnt matter. Its trumps world. And he makes it every single day. And all we get to do is talk about it and write about it. You agree . The best thing ive ever heard. Because i am here in reality. The u. N. Intergovernmental panel told us we have about a decade to stop a catastrophe. A global catastrophe. We have out here in the real world a global humanitarian crisis. Multiple wars going on that we could be playing a much more positive role in. Out here in the real world a student debt crisis, homeownership levels at a record low and the racial wealth gap expanding. We have real problems in this country while the circus is going on inside the white house. And thats the saddest thing. Its such a good point. No matter what you thought of the last three president s, two democratic president s, one republican president , and they came at all those issues very differently but thats what they did all day, not call reporters and say what your hearing about whether Chris Christie is in the running. Jared will never let that happen. What are you hearing about who is i mean, that is what they do all day. And not on twitter and not worried, trying to discredit an investigation because, you know, they werent investigated, among other things. They werent doing those things. Its an entirely different presidency. In a way, whomever is the chief of staff, when you look at john kelly, even if President Trump was able to convince the most qualified person available to be his next chief of staff, what difference would it make because he is his own chief of staff. Hes his own communications director. Real people who could help this president and white house have no interest, nor should they. Robert costa, thanks for the piece. Were fine with people calling reporters all day. Lets not were okay with that. Its a great way to spend your day. I love it. You love it. We all love it. Im saying in the old days they used to call, like at 6 00, after all those meetings stacked up. Now theyre available. They watch tv. But dont stop calling robert costa. Thank you. They call each other. Nothing can come between them, not even the brutal murder of a resident at the direction of moham ed. The reporting on the bond between kushner and the crown prince of saudi arabia. Thats next. The new Capital One Savor card. Earn 4 cash back on dining and 4 on entertainment. Now when you go out, you cash in. Whats in your wallet . The zip code youre born into can determine your future. Your school. Your job. Your dreams. Your problems. indistinct shouting but at the y, we create opportunities for everyone, no matter who you are or where youre from. For a better us, donate to your local y today. For a better us, uh uh i deliverberty the news around here. Sources say Liberty Mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Over to you, logo. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. We have known that Jared Kushner is close with Saudi Crown Prince mohammad bin salman, but new reporting in the New York Times shows us just how close. Quote, the two men were on a first name basis calling each other jared and mohammed. The piece goes othe exchanges continued an even after the october 2nd killing of jamal khashoggi, the saudi journalist. It goes even further. Kushner has offered the crown prince advice about how to weather the storm urging him to resolve his conflicts around the region and avoid further embarrassments. Embarrassments . Chopping up into little pieces a u. S. Resident . Its only embarrassing if you get caught. This is embarrassing. Thats the sad part. Its a fabulous, long, excruciating article in the New York Times talking about a power point presentation that was given in saudi arabia about exactly how to get into the inner circle of the white house. And surprise, surprise, its this naive, completely uneducated in Foreign Affairs young, you know, Family Member who ends up being the route to what has been an absolute Foreign Policy embarrassment is our relationship with saudi arabia. So you see the parallels between the way that they got into Jared Kushner and the way russia got into donald trump. You see the naivety. The fact that we still have President Trump using his personal cell phone and the chinese and russians listening in all the time. It just goes on and on. These people are not fit to lead. Kim, theres a question a former intelligence official raised with me today, and its piece which is exceptional and incredibly detailed and corroborated. But with so many obvious different sources and different streams of information, but mbs is known to use whatsapp. Ive never seen it reported or communicated anywhere he uses a different type of service. They thought it necessary to be preserved for the laws of all communications. The people use whatsapp is for that end to end encryption you cant see. I think that is extraordinary, the fact there is this direct line with a senior white house official and somebody who multiple nations have decided by their intelligence is a cold including our own intelligence officials is a coldblooded murderer. I dont like playing the imagine if game because its not helpful. But imagine if i dont know Valerie Jarrett was found to be texting a coldblooded murderer and the fall out that would have ensued. That is what we are talking about here, and its not just the connection there. Ites the inroads that saudi arabia has made within this white house. They are political, they are financial. Its really extraordinary. Valerie jarrett wouldnt have been in the crown prince club that apparently oh, my microphone, im sorry. You can pick up for him. Its a good question. When you come from a purely transactional background, when youre trying to pump Financial Life back into your building on fifth avenue, when youre trying to block and tackle people within government who are actually trying to help the president , you know, go back to the transition and things like that where a lot of people came with goodwi will and intent but they were blocked and kept away it tells you the insular nature of this family run interpriesz is designed to remain just that. This is just an extension. But all they ask themselves is how can we get over . What lie do we have to tell to get past this . I love the word embarrassment pabeing used in murder of this guy in broad daylight. And nobody is hearing any moral alarms here because guess what, none are being sounded in this white house ever. What do you make of the prospect of these communications, which could be central to understanding u. S. Saudi relations for a generation, potentially being lost to all white house records . Well, youre assuming that those communications have anything to do with the governance and Foreign Affairs of the nation when it comes to saudi arabia. Im sure they do. We know that they do because the hes been advising him how to get around our own governments position of him having killed khashoggi. Right, but thats a particular criminal act that has serious ramifications. But more broadly speaking we talk about the relationship between the u. S. And saudi arabia, the ongoing transactional nature of that relationship, which by the way doesnt just start with this administration. It goes back in time, and thats something that the saudis have leveraged to their advantage. Again, but all of thats missed if youre doing it encrypted. I think youre making a bigger point. Whos to say they arent also doing personal business. Up next, Donald Trumps lies have gotten so bad the Washington Post had to create a new category for him. Well show you. George woke up in pain. But he has plans today. Hey dad. So he took aleve. If hed taken tylenol, hed be stopping for more pills right now. Only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. Aleve. All day strong. And just like you, the further into winter we go, the heavier i get. And while your pants struggle to support the heavier you, your roof struggles to support the heavier me. Crash and your cutrate insurance might not pay for this. So get allstate, you could save money and be better protected from mayhem like me. Mayhem is everywhere. So get an allstate agent. Are you in good hands . phone ringing a phones offers big button,ecialized phones. And volumeenhanced phones. , get details on this state program. Call or visit and accessoriesphones for your mobile phone. Like this device to increase volume on your cell phone. phone ringing get details on this state program call or visit President Trumps lying has gotten so bad and so commonplace that the Washington Post has decided to add another tier of terrible to their fact checker column. Meet the bottomless pinocchio. How do you cover this white house . Its difficult. You have to remember the reality. I sort of think of it in terms of dorothy in oz, that you know there is a real place and whats happening in washington is not normal. And as long as you remember that and keep your eye on that, you just forge forward. The most passionate jim comey got last night was around this almost urgent plea we dont become lie. Thats the core of this, it is the dumbing down of our senses to whats right, whats wrong, whats truth, whats a lie. This repeated assault on the press, repeated assault on the institutions that every american has grown up to respect, even though we may have our issues steams with fbi or whatever, and, you know, cia gets a little rogue, okay, lets reign them back in. This approach that folks at this table somehow do is a threat somehow to a u. S. Citizen, its a very dangerous space for us to be in. And we really have to ask ourselves what kind of country do we want to boo and what kind of leader do we want to govern. I would submit to you this isnt the leader we want. Part of the problem is were nearing because of social media and the frankly the relationship between social media, the right wing blogs and right wing news media, this sort of information apocalypse, where trump may leave the white house before his time is up. I hope that happens for the sake of our country, for the sake of the world. But the lies, the infrastructure that supports the lies and the alternative reality is still going to be there unless we start to actually stand up and say we need a new kind of media reform in this country. Theres no more important war that weve ever fought in this country than the fight to maintain and preserve the truth in this country right now. You think we can do it . I mean you laid out all the structural impediments to winning. Theres a guy named mueller whos the president of that. And i still believe in those three words, we the people. My thanks to Kimberley Atkins and michael. That does it for our hour. It is good to be back and it is good to see you. Good to see you, my friend. Im going to race back to my office and watch you. Please do. Its going to be exciting. If its monday where theres smock, there may be fire. Good evening im katie tur in new york in for chuck tod and welcome to mtp daily. We begin with the growing legal peril for individual one after ra