Time. You fight until we can continue to achieve what is right and just for everyone of all backgrounds, all religions and all genders, and ways of life. Thats what the great people like Nelson Mandela stood for. We cant just choose to be good. We must aspire to try and be great. That does it for me. Thanks for watching. Ill see you back here tomorrow at 5 00 p. M. Eastern. Up next, the beat with my friend ari melber. Bob mueller revealing Michael Cohens crimes, as well as new details on his ties to russia with federal prosecutors in new york dropping the hammer and calling for substantial prison time. Lets get right to it, two major Court Filings out tonight, one from bob mueller who says that Michael Cohen has been helpful in his russia investigation and, from these prosecutors up in new
york who say cohen still deserves years in jail for a criminal mindset that allowed him to basically commit a host of crimes. All of this is a week before a judge will sentence cohen for all the above. Lets look at the latest in the mueller which i was just discussing with our own chuck todd, because bob mueller said hes not taking any position on how much time Michael Cohen should serve, but he does note that cohen first came into his office, to bob muellers investigators and lied to him, and lied specifically about money that we know cohen, trump and felix sater were trying to make in russia. Mueller said in the new filing that cohen has now taken steps to mitigate those lies and other crimes. He gave crucial information about the Trump Campaign in russia, this was after he started lying he started telling the truth, mueller said, and he told the truth about russian attempts to reach the Trump Campaign dating back to 2015,
also russiarelated matters core to his investigation. He knew about these things because of, quote, his contact with company executives, a reference to unnamed people in the Trump Organization, could be employees, could be family members. While mueller said cohen was helpful, the federal prosecutors in new york not impressed at all. It was a they sharashing. They say Michael Cohen only gave up at the end when he had few other choices. They hammer him. They note he was not actually a cooperating witness, he didnt do what he could have done. And he committed four distinct federal crimes. They say in their version of the case he was motivated by personal greed, he used his own power and influence for personal deception. And it was deception that permeated his entire professional life. They note where the law comes in, the Federal Guide Line would
call for someone to serve about 63 months in prison. While they say he should get a little bit of credit for what he did in cooperating, he shouldnt get much. They call for four years what they call a substantial term of imprisonment. All that and bob mueller filing another big document, this is for Paul Manafort, the former Campaign Chair and the, quote, crimes and lies that mueller said justified his plea deal. That document i can tell you has been filed under seal so at this hour we dont know whats inside it. What we do know its already a big day for bob mueller. I want to get to it with maya wiley, a civil prosecutor in the same Southern District of new york. John flannery, a former federal prosecutor, and nancy gerdner, a
former federal judge. Maya, what do you think is most important in what mueller is choosing to say and why your former colleagues in the Southern District are coming down so hard on Michael Cohen . I think you just said it, ari. Whats really relevant here is you have a one you have a document that makes very clear that there have been significant contact between those in trumps sphere and russia. We actually already knew that. What we see now is the reverse side of it. Meaning we have a long history between George Papadopoulos beginning with George Papadopoulos in march of 2016, who understood his job as connections to the russians. And in april and may communicating up the chain with the Trump Campaign about meeting with russia. But we also find out that trump
moscow tower deal was happening at the same time and back in november 2015, the russians were also directly reaching out to the trump world. So we already knew that there was lots of contact with russia, even before this document. What were seeing is that theres a lot more that we did not know about. That we also know that theres going to be a continued investigation into it. Thats quite clear, both from the Michael Flynn filing as well as from the fact there was a lot redacted in that and the fact that the manafort filing has been redacted. In terms of the Southern District its all quite clear. What theyre saying, quite frankly, is look, this guy didnt Do The Right Thing. And by the way, he was a lawyer. His obligation to Do The Right Thing was heightened. And he came in, he was not really he didnt formulate a cooperation agreement. He didnt agree to talk to us about things that may be crimes
that he was not already pleading guilty to, and that should bring us right back around to the Trump Organization investigation that theyre still conducting. Nancy, im thrilled we have the benefit of your expertise tonight because this is now going right into judge lane. How does a judge take these two very different recommendations . Mueller saying basically he lied but he helped, you figure it out. And the sdny saying this is a bad dude. He is a criminal, hes a liar, he thinks hes, quote, Above The Law and should get about four years. What does the judge do . The judge will have two alternatives. On the one hand, this is going to be driven by this is a train driven by the prosecution. Because its the mueller part that is the big question mark. Right, if it were just the sdny part, then, you know,
essentially cohen would get time and the question is how much. The mueller part is whats driving it. The fallacy of all that were talking about is that even if cohen were sentenced tomorrow to, you know, four years, three years, or whatever variation that is, hell continue to cooperate with the government. The government has the ability to file, as you know, whats called a rule 35 motion after the fact seeking a reduction in the sentence. So while this didnt happen in a very orderly fashion with him being a cooperating witness, the rule 35 will continue to hang over him and will lead to an adjustment. Do you think a judge would give him years . You know, i mean, ive been speculating all day. I think a judge will give him years in the face of the in the face of the sdny recommendation. I dont think a judge would give him four years. Hes before a very tough judge, actually. Judge pauly is not someone whos been lenient on white collar
offenses and if you looked only at the four corners of the sdny stuff you would say because of the amount of money involved this guy would get some years, but i say thats speculating because what will happen is the court can impose a sentence and basically stay is sentence, he continues to cooperate with mueller and there can be a subsequent adjustment. Sure. But this is real stuff. This is not George Papadopoulos time. This is the contemplation of real time, real felonies absolutely. Were going to cover this in a couple ways throughout our show tonight, john. But it is not normal, an everyday event to have federal prosecutors go into court and say, we proved this Campaign Crime right. This person admitted to it, and it was done at the direction of the sitting president of the united states. Your view of that piece of this tonight . Thats significant. I mean, theres almost nothing comparable since watergate with
this. And to have a lawyer coming forward, also follows that parall parallel. The thing thats interesting here, is you have a good guy, Bad Guy Presentation by the Special Counsel versus the Southern District. And the Southern District gave tough language, like sometimes happens in a labor decision, but then the result of five years, looking at his exposure and what he did, and it could be much more substantial than that. And i agree they could come back and revisit it. They dont want to reward somebody who cab ined off what he was prepared to do there. On the other hand we have the statement by the Special Counsel basically praising the cooperation despite his lies, despite who he is. How do we justify that as a Justice System . They group together. This is the lawyer sounds like you dont know. I thought you had an answer, john, then you said birds of a feather. How do we . I think of birds of a feather. Not eagles perhaps, but birds of a feather. Thats my answer in this case. If you look at his history of lawyers, mr. Trump, we go from roy cohn, to mr. Cohen and we dont have as good a lawyer as roy to do as good of the evil things he did in the past i would revise your remarks. I think what you have is someone as clearly criminal and deceptive as roy cohn. Yes. But less effective in getting away with it. Yes. Fascinating narrative here that goes beyond what we knew two hours ago, im reading from the documents. I hope people bear with me its interesting. Bob muellers investigators explain the first time they spoke to him was august 7th at, quote, cohens request. And he did provide relevant
information to other parts of the probe. Then because they knew what they were doing when they asked him questions in the moscow project, quote, he later provided false answers in an effort to not contradict his congressional testimony, which we know was perjury. What does that tell you about the way they gathered and squeezed Michael Cohen and why are they revealing it now . I think theyre revealing it so we know what were dealing with, and they have the advantage to press him to tell the truth by taking his Tape Recordings and all of his letters and emails and the other witnesses they had to talk about him and to confirm what he had to say. Also in there they say that we have, by other means, confirmed what hes tilling us, and they were helped and he made some corrections even as he was talking to them about matters, which gave him credibility as a cooperating witness ain the Special Counsel investigation. I think thats substantial. I think the real question here, is whats going to happen when we move from whitaker to barr, we have a similar problem. Barr is the same person who when they had the iran. Contra investigation he said to pardon people youre talking about news on any other night we would have mentioned but we havent yet, for those coming home from work on a friday, President Trump announcing a new pick for an Attorney General, william barr, who served as an watergaattorne general in a republican administration, and who is considered a main stream voice. You might say Matt Whitaker is as low a bar as can you get when it comes to credentials. Hes certainly no Matt Whitaker. But what interests donald trump about this nominee is that he went along with a group of political pardons in the bush
administration. Were going to get to that later in the show. But maya i want you to weigh in on the same question as john, why are we learning about the way cohen was brought in to the Special Counsel probe tonight in your view . Were getting a strong, public signal that there is Corroborating Evidence. Thats the way i read it. I read, we dont have to just rely on Michael Cohen. He walked in there, the mistake he made, which is not one that a very, very accomplished lawyer would make, by the way. Is he walked in assuming he knew what the prosecutors knew. And thats the thing you never want to do. He walked in, he was surprised, he wasnt expecting to be asked those questions about the trump tower moscow. He then lied, which was dumb. After that lie, and in the remaining six sessions that he
had, he came clean. Thats the kind of complexity of the story. Heres a guy whos a career liar cheat, he was willing to do it again, but like any solid prosecutorial team, they had solid information, they knew they had facts he didnt enjoy they had, that also means they can prove it without him. Even if his credibility is somewhat impugned, they have additional evidence. When you put it like that and we just got all of this so were just making sense of it. So youre saying its an elegant implicit rebuttal to the donald trump claim that well, Michael Cohen is saying anything to get out of trouble. So he brought this seemingly bad stuff to mueller and now theyre all chewing on it. What youre saying is this footnote shows no, heres the time line of we had the bad stuff, thats how we knew he was lying. Now hes an extra witness but not a primary one on moscow
trump tower. Cooperate with us and youre going to be in a better position than if you dont because were going to get you. I want everyone to stay with me, john. Stay with me everyone. Theres a whole different filing from Paul Manafort tonight. Nbcs ken delaney has been leading the filing on that. Heres what we learned, it is significantly redacted. We did learn that the Special Counsel is saying Paul Manafort lied about his interactions with a man named konstantin kilimnik, thats important because the Special Counsel said kilimnik had ongoing ties to russian intelligence. Theres a reference to a meeting between kilimnik and an individual whose name is blacked out in the filing. Paul manafort lied about that. The Special Counsel also alleged that Paul Manafort lied about another separate Department Of Justice investigation that manafort offered information about. And lastly the Special Counsel counsel said manafort lied when he said he wasnt in contact with anyone from the Trump Administration. Turns out he was until may of this year. And because of all of that, the Special Counsel has cancelled manaforts Plea Agreement and hes now facing up to 15 years in prison. When you look at that line, does that relate in your view or is it possible to say, to obstruction or potentially collusion related things since capitol hill ne kilimnik is one of the, potentially, russianlinked handlers . To ken. Im sorry i thought you were talking to someone else. Im sorry, im the anchor im supposed to use names, thats on me. To ken dilanian. I think kilimnik has always been a Mystery Figure in terms of collusion. We dont know exactly his role. It goes to the question of Paul Manaforts role in any contact with russians during the campaign. Because of the redactions we just dont see the full picture here ari. Copy. I appreciate your precision on that. Bringing back nancy, our resident judge, i want to go to sum up more of what mueller has said basically through the cohen filing because hes getting into the trump tower deal more than we have before. He said the moscow project was, quote, a lucrative Business Opportunity required the assistance of the russian government and the company could have been received hundreds of millions of dollars from russian sources. Nancy, do you view this as an indication that finances may be at the heart of bob muellers probe of what a Collusion Conspiracy looks like . Money and not just where it
started, which we knew publically was about email hacking . I think thats how they followed manafort. In the litigation over whether or not the Special Prosecutor had a right to go after manafort, one of the things they said was what they were doing was following the money. Following the money that the ukraine sources to manafort. And i think following the money is what they are doing throughout. Getting back to the sentencing issue, i am reminded that john dean, for example, when he testified before congress, i believe he did some time for his role in nixons obstruction of justice. So the notion that cohen would get some time, i think that this is right, would make some sense. That was the other question. But the other thing, with respect to the russian issue, we have to step back. Theres almost like it was we thought this case was about flynn, Michael Flynn lying about his contacts with the russians. Which when, if you recall, sally
yates said that was an issue concern about the russians might be willing to extort from donald trump, or it was a way of influencing them because people were lying about russian contacts. So even a failed Trump Tower Project opens the door to the russians, basically, exercising influence on all of the trump players, because they were lying about it. And the more significant the contacts are, the more significant and the more substantial the financial dealings were, the more the russians had on him. And therefore, that raises a whole host of other questions about russian sanctions, et cetera. So its a weve now opened the door much broader to russian influence, not just by lying but by the financial transactions. John, you almost get the feeling that theyre good at
this and people with more ethics or more Government Experience may have better resistance, and this crew clearly didnt. I think thats true. And, you know, nothing can overcome the greed motive. Until the recent disclosures, i didnt appreciate how much the trump hoped to profit from lifting the sanctions, as well as the russians, as well as putin. But because of his investment in this moscow project and because that he was being blocked by the same sanctions that were compromising the auto cats in russi russia, he had that. Not just the white house he wanted to achieve but the sanctions lifted benefitted putin and himself. Thats really significant. Its interesting to read the manafort document thats been produced. I only had a second to look at it, i apologize for looking down. Basically where they say he lied, that tells us what they have thats true and can be proven. And so thats interesting. They also say on a couple of occasions that he said something, and then when he was confronted with the fact he changed it. We cant ignore he is at the same time sending information back to the trump team as to what hes being questioned about in this investigation. So you have him lying, and you have obstruction and cooperation with the west wings team representing trump. Thats significant. Thats such a significant point you raise because theres been a lot of this thats boiled down to Black And White where people wrongfully think, well, do you go after a sitting present for obstruction or not if thats the only thing and where does that go . But, in fact, as You Eludegh Bo into the record and into court, the two keep people, the Campaign Chair and the longtime personal lawyer, both actively came in and lied to him. One of them got blown up over
it, Paul Manafort, the other tried to dial it back, Michael Cohen. Then the question becomes, who knew about it at the white house, who knew about that . Did other lawyers know about that . Fraud is going to come into play if you had lawyers or others at the white house committing new criminal conspiracies. Thats implicated in here. To say nothing of the Campaign Finance crime. I want to thank nancy very much. I may come back to each of you in our rolling coverage. I want to bring in neil. A striking deal that federal prosecutors in the Southern District do bring up dump in these filings tonight. They say Michael Cohen not only made illegal payments, we heard about that, but they say in court he made them, quote, in coordination and at the direction of Individual One. That is donald trump. Im thrilled that as part of our special coverage neil joins us
and he argues as a legal matter prosecutors have concluded that donald trump is on the hook for that felony. Our viewers may recognize you. Of course you served in many high profile legal positions at the Justice Department, including as acting solicitor general. So i know when you speak of what constitutes a at the lfelony yo do it lightly. To me the big news tonight is not about Michael Cohen, its not about Paul Manafort. Its about one person, donald trump and the filing you just started to highlight that was made today in the Michael Cohen case really does, for the first time you have federal prosecutors essentially saying that donald trump committed a felony. And heres the way that works. First of all, this is not a document by mueller. This is filed by trumps own Justice Department, by the Southern District prosecutors in new york. Theres three pieces to the
claim, the first piece is page 11 of the filing that says Michael Cohen made these Campaign Finance payments at the direction of trump. Were talking about payments made to two women for their silence for having alleged affairs with trump and they were going to go public. What happened was cohen paid those folks and did so at a time youre only supposed to give 2,700 for a campaign and thats for an important reason. Congress said we dont want rich people buying elections. We want transparency in our election process. At page 11 the Southern District prosecutors say that was done at the direction of trump. The next key, page 12, at page 12 the prosecutors say, quote, the agreements principle purpose was to suppress this womans story so as to prevent the story from influencing the election. So theyre taking away the trump defense, which was there in the edwards case, i was doing it to protect my private life or Something Like that, these payments. Theyre saying, no, this was
done with the purpose of influencing the election, thats what the Campaign Finance laws are all about. Lastly, page 23, a long description by the prosecutors of just how serious this violation of the Campaign Finance laws are, how it strikes a blow to our democracy, theres Soaring Lang Uage in there. Put all three of those together the Southern District prosecutors are alleging the president committed a felony. Theyre not indicted him. But thats the document they filed. Thats a document i have not seen in my lifetime. You say you havent seen that in your lifetime. What youre speaking to is that language of direction. Youre saying legally makes donald trump in the eyes of these prosecutors culpable for the criminal Campaign Finance violation that cohen has admitted to . Correct. Is that the end of it or anyone watching is going to think, okay, counselor, that
sounds like a big deal, you said youve never seen anything like that in your life, do they do more with that . This is separate from the mueller probe, do they do more with that . The idea that trump if this were any other person, prosecutors would be entitled to bring a case, they have reasonable grounds to bring this they said, they have some Corroborating Evidence besides Michael Cohens statements, to suggest this happen, and they could under those circumstances indict an ordinary person. The Justice Department has said, in two opinions, you may not be able to indict and try a sitting president. Maybe indictment, bringing the charges is different. So theres one question about what can mueller do . What can the Southern District do in terms of can they indict the president . Then theres that separate realm of what happens in terms of impeachment, the standard is
high crimes and misdemeanors in our constitution right. And before we even get there, i want to pause on that piece of your analysis because some of it gets into, as you say, uncharted territory. Are you basically telling us tonight that if donald trump had lost the election, this is the kind of thing that as a citizen he would be indicted for along with Michael Cohen and its because he won the election which this new files argues was part of what Michael Cohen thought would help him, that there was a reward then . A bonus . Exactly. Those three statements that i isolated from the prosecutors memo established a felony. And we have a principle in america that no person is Above The Law. Right now, the thing protecting the president from indictment appears not that hes a lawabiding person. Theres a lot here to suggest that there is a crime that has been committed and the only get out of jail free card he seems
to be holding right now is the one that says im a president , you cant indict me, go home. Youre saying that its a huge deal, it jumped out to me earlier in the filing, i pointed it out and im happy to have you here. I want to make sure we explore the other side of this in fairness. This is an explosive thing on a friday night, were talking about a filing that talks about the president being an unindicted coconspirator of not just a felony in concept but a felony Michael Cohen has literally confessed to, which makes it worse for the president. On the flip side, aside from the constitutional arguments on indicting, isnt there a defense to the president that someone was overzealous and did it the wrong way . He didnt direct quote unquote, the criminal intent, meaning hide it, mislead the fec to that kind of stuff that its not a
crime. Any defense for him there . Sure. The president is going to try to say Something Like i didnt intend it for Campaign Finance violations, i intended it to protect my family and personal life, this and that. What im saying is what the allegations are in the filing at page 12 when they say the principle purpose of the agreement was for Campaign Finance violations, if its true, it knocks out that defense. Now again it has to be proven up in a court, just like any indictment has to be proven in a court. But what were look at today is something that seriously implicates the president directly in federal felonies. I would ask you how the president might understand this, but ill go ahead and share and spoiler alert. Its not much but hes posting tonight. Totally clears the president. Thank you. Kne neil . Im not sure hes read the filing. I think if you read just those three pages of the filing, add them up, its a pretty damning document and i can assure you no one i know would want to be cleared in this way. I got to tell control room, someone is holding down the button, im not hearing neil. The audience is getting more of you than i am, neil. Say Something Else or give some analysis while we fix my audio. Great. Look now i hear you. So i think what the president is, like many people, willfully reading things that hes seeing and saying, oh, you know, this isnt a big deal, im totally cleared. But the words are the words. And the words are really darn damning right now and if im the president tonight im beside myself and frightened. I know the president has a capacity for selfdelusion, but this one is a hard one. Those words are Black And White on the paper. While i have you, the other big news is william barr appointed to be the new Attorney General taking over from whitaker. You are in a position to know him and a lot of the people around him and know how doj works. What is your view of that appointment . First of all its a relief. We have a fake Attorney General right now someone who i dont believe is empowered to do the job. So anyone that the president nominates and gets through Senate Confirmation is a step up from what we have right now. Number two, barr is an enormously divisioned qualified person who served as a great Attorney General two decades ago. The question to me is not what did he do a long time ago as Attorney General, but what are his views now . Hes taken some views that i think some have found troubling, about the uranium investigation, calling for the president s targets to be investigated and the like. We have to see if whether or not
hes changed. Donald trump himself used to be a democrat. So people change in two decades. So i think its his Current Record now that weve got to evaluate. And, you know, i think on the Special Counsel stuff i can tell you back in 1999, when we were drafting the regulations. I think he saw eyetoeye with the way we saw it. Which was the Independence Council act, the old statue after watergate was too strong a medicine and had dangerous constitutional ramifications. And the Special Counsel ramifications struck the right balance because they allowed an independent prosecutor. And he went to the hill and celebrated the idea of an independent prosecutor. So if his old views are still his view today, thats a heartening step, its not like what Matthew Whitaker has said about the Special Counsel. So my judgment is kind of reserved at this point because i want to see what he said today,
but certainly his old views were good. Thats interesting coming from you, particularly at a time where there is a rush, i think with some reason, to criticize a lot of what this president does no matter what. Youre clearly looking into the depth of this individual. His record on these issues, and, of course, hes going to go through a confirmation process. Which as we all know we learn new things. I want you to stay with our rolling coverage as well. But i want to show the audience russia parts of this. There are key parts of the filing that go not only into how the Trump Tower Project in moscow was being developed and being sold, but also why it was such import to donald trump and his company. Robert mueller writing, it was a lucrative Business Opportunity that sought and likely required the assistance of the russian government saying cohen was approached to set up a meeting between Individual One and vladimir putin. According to the filing cohen was told this meeting would have a phenomenal impact not only in political but Business Dimensions as well. And there was no bigger warranty in any project, and the consent of, yes, that would be putin. Heres cohen in September 2015 talking about a trump putin meeting. Theres a better than likely chance trump may even meet with putin when he comes here for the united nations. People want to meet donald trump. Yes, they do. Bringing in former u. S. Ambassador to russia, michael mcfall, who we asked to call in so we can have the benefit of his knowledge. Ambassador mcfaul, this is a legal document but its also in many ways a peek into the National Security and counterintelligence premises of the Special Counsel probe, something we dont often see. In your view do they check out
and whats your reaction to what were learning . I think were learning that Michael Cohen wanted to get rich after the elections. And he had been focussed on that. He had been being guidance from various people about how to do that, thats why he had the theory he needed to secure the meeting with putin. If youre trying to do a Big Business Deal in russia, its always good to have President Putin as your partner. I think its really important to remember they didnt think they were going to win this election when all these contacts and conversations were happening. And Michael Cohen probably never thought he was going to go to the white house. He was always looking to cash in on his personal relationship with the president to do this big deal in russia. Its such a great point. I wonder if you would build on that ambassador, because youve served in government you have a sense how normal Government Officials and diplomats run and Michael Cohen is anything but. This was a man who, according to
the evidence we had, didnt think donald trump was likely to win the campaign, although he took all sorts of acts on trumps behalf and didnt think he was going to end in jail either based on the reckless conduct and both of those things are on the table, donald trump having won and prosecutors recommending four years. How does that contrast to say the way its supposed to be done when people who might be in your position are advising president s and campaigns get into this world of becoming targets or becoming of interest to foreign officials . Well, you know i worked on Barack Obamas 2008 campaign. Lets just be clear, you said normal, right . To the best of my knowledge, nobody was trying to do Business Deals with foreign governments during that campaign. Thats just crazy. Its absurd, nobody would ever do that. Number two, lets be clear also, we need to learn more, but it sounds like the candidate himself was also involved in
this. And is that would be very consistent with other kinds of negotiations and conversations hes had that he would be involved. And number three, i just kind of want to keep reminding people, ari, you talked about it before, the same interlock or thes that they had, in talking about doing what theyre calling in these documents, the moscow project are the same people arranging the meeting in june 2016 to help trump win allegedly, lets keep adding that adverb providing something on secretary clinton to help him win. Its the same group of russians were dealing with. Ken dilanian, your view . The reason that special Counsel Robert Mueller has said theyre satisfied with Michael Cohens cooperation, whereas the
Southern District is not satisfied is because cohen cooperated extensively about the russia collusion, i dont think we should lose sight of that. In fact, my colleague just flagged one part that said he cooperated about contacts within and around the Trump White House in 2017 and this year. Thats the first mention of really the Mueller Investigation reaching into the modern Trump White House as opposed to the campaign. It also this document makes clear that donald trump lied. I dont use that term lightly. When he said at his first News Conference as president that he had no contacts with russian during the campaign, no dealings with russia. We had a hint of it. But this document says in december of 2015, trump conferred with Michael Cohen about reaching out to the russian government and it seems to be related to the Trump Tower Project because it seems to be the same individual who offered the Campaign Political synergy and synergy on a government
evangelical. Obviously we dont know from this document what was said, but it looks like Michael Cohen was a target of recruitment here by the russians who were trying to infiltrate the Trump Campaign. The last thing thats important is cohen talked about the circumstances why he lied to congress. How and who he told and the circumstances of how he gave false testimony to congress. The implication is it wasnt just Michael Cohens decision to tell the lies to congress. I think theres more to come on that, ari. Thats right. Thats where the filings both have clues about the notion that other people may have been involved in these things, other people involved in obstruction, conspiracies. Neil im curious about what you think of this odd use of the word synergy, those in regular life think of that as a meaningless world, thrown around in corporation meetings. Im not aware of it as a huge
legal signifier. Its like bob mueller went out of his way in that filing to refer to an alliance a synergy between trump and russian officials without using the word collusion, do you read it that way . I think thats fair. I think theres something important going on here, and i guess id say its three things i would look to. Number one be the trump tower meeting in june of 2016, which there have been so many shifting stories about and today it was reported that at least former mayor Rudy Giuliani is saying that they believe that mueller believes that manafort lied about trumps knowledge, and that trump actually had knowledge of that meeting before it took place. You know, the chronology there was june 3rd, trumps son was contacted by the russians and said if this information is what you say it is, i love it, and so on. And the claim by some has been that trump has said i never knew
anything about this and so on. We dont know exactly what he told mueller in his Statement Last week but thats one thing to think about. The second thing to think about, this report that evidently there was going to be a 50 million penthouse for putin that was going to be paid for my trump which would be a violation of the foreign corrupt practices act. And number three, why is everyone lying about this . Theres so many different lies. Lies from cohen, from manafort, lies from people all over. And then they say its no big deal. Its just russian business and so on. This is people who were you know, these Campaign Officials and trumps personal lawyer dealing with the russians and then lying about it. Not just ordinary russians but the russian government, the kremlin itself. Thats a very, very the American Public should have known that before the election, and this was hidden from them. Right. And that again goes to some of the Connective Tissue here which is the Southern District
prosecutors say there were things hidden from the American Public by Michael Cohens acts. Certainly some of the incriminating information about Donald Trumps lifestyle was out there. Then in the manafort filing which we are just die jegting, some of it ill hold up because itll remind viewers what weve been doing all week, some of the hottest stuff is redacted. Whats not redacted for your analysis, i know youre doing it live with us, is the idea theres an obstruction conspiracy muellers term, between kplilimnik and manafort. Manafort provided different information about a different investigation. So mueller is saying heres a trump witness going to maybe help us with Something Else and then mueller changed his story with that and finally whats
the legal significance of this, do you think that manafort saying he didnt have any type of communication with anyone in the Trump Administration and he never asked anyone to try to communicate a message with anyone in the Trump Administration on any matter. That, of course, is contradicted by Rudy Giuliani and others publically boasting about their communications and then this, im reading from the new filing, a Text Exchange from may 26, 2018 of this year, manafort authorized a person to speak with an Administration Official on manaforts behalf. How do you view that, neil . Why is it in the filing . Why is it unredacted . I think i dont want to speculate on that yet. I want to think about it more and study the filing. I dont want to punt on that one. So maybe ken and others have views. This is what we do around here. No, im kidding. I appreciate your precision. Ken and john flannery, if hes in the chair, ill put the
question out, bob mueller, to put it in Plane English is saying, john . Paul manafort lied to us and he wasnt touched with trump people. Go ahead. The plot continues. You said it for me. I would say ditto. The thing about the obstruction here is so strong, all the lies and everything were talking about, what are they . Theyre consciousness of guilt, we did something we covered it up, covered it up till the cooperate, we lie and then run away. The fox is going to ground. And mueller is as close as he could be to ramming speed. I just i dont know that were going to have a seasonal present but he looks ready to me. And i think a lot of people are going to be very unhappy. And the question is, is it going to be a family plan . Do we start with the trump family and the moneys they have . Are we going to look at the old gang . Are we going to have manafort again with his former partner
roger stone . The possibilities all seem reasonable and the question is will they all be together . I thought this would be the third act in a threepart act, heres the equipment we put in place, this is how we dispense it, and three these are the americans who betrayed their country and compromise us in Foreign Policy so they could fulfill their greedy inclinations. Thats what i think this is about. A lot of it goes to what ambassador mcfaul and others mentioned. Manafort claiming he had no contact with anybody anything about, thats a claim to make. You can have a friend in government and talk about baseball or policy if thats your passion and it wont go anywhere near what your lawyers are telling you not to talk about. So he makes this denial and mueller busts him, you were doing it in writing the
arrogance a text message in may to the administration. Im sure there are going to be nervous people in the white house tonight. Manafort also said hed been in communication with a, quote, senior Administration Official through february of 2018, and review of documents demonstrates additional contacts with, quote, Administration Officials. Who are they . Did they ever lie . John . This is the trojan horse approach. Everything else, he was in a corner. Hes facing a big prosecution in d. C. And so he makes a false agreement and a plea figuring at the end of this trail, if he does it right, hell get a pardon from a questionable source, mr. One, mr. Trump. So what he does is he cooperates, he lies when he can, and he conveys the information back to the trump people so they can prepare a defense and an attack on the investigation. Pure obstruction. Now i dont i cant remember seeing a trojan horse strategy
like this, certainly at a president ial level, certainly in such a visible place. But the reason were able to get at these guys is because theyre not that good at it. Theyre terrible liars. They talk publically all the time. They have strategies kids in the streets wouldnt have. And because of it, the republican may be saved. Some republican senator may find the backbone you only have to get through the first few episodes of season one of the wire to know not to send the text messages. Stay with me, john. Were not taking any breaks were in breaking coverage here. When you look at the filing from the Southern District of new york. It hammers Michael Cohen not only for laws but doing the opposite of what you may have heard about on tv that he was quote cooperating. But prosecutors basically say he wasnt cooperating enough thus
they represent he should get substantial prison time. They detail that, the willful tax evasion, statements to banks, Illegal Campaign contributions, and false statements to congress. The prosecutors also rebuke cohen for what they call a criminal mindset. At his own option he is Above The Laws of the united states. Weve got all our experts back for this. And i want to go to maya, who has basically worked in that office. This looks to a lot of people like a stronger rebuke than you might have expected from the federal prosecutors there and they also go out of their way to say it wasnt full cooperation. Maya . I think its an understandable rebuke, quite frankly. Because as i said earlier, number one, this is an attorney. This is someone who took an oath when he passed his bar exam that said he was going to uphold the laws and that he was going to hold the highest level of ethics
as someone who was charged with the law. Now, that what he also did was walked in, as weve said and, you know, he didnt walk in and cooperate. He pled guilty and then started to try to cut a deal for himself that would help him out. There was some indication in some news reports that suggested that he was, in fact, holding out for a pardon and then kind of felt like he was getting thrown under the bus. So maybe it was in his best interest to paint a different picture of himself. So i think what youre hearing from prosecutors is look, we dont like people who violate the law, particularly when they do it over a course of years, and then come in and try to play us. I guess the dmx argument on sentencing didnt fly so well with them. They actually make a reference essentially to that argument that somehow he hasnt done anything as bad as some others. And then finally, finally i think theyre making quite clear, while he has cooperated,
it really does seem like hes done it in a way that was really about his best interests. Let me say one other thing about why it was in his best interests, because the District Attorney of manhattan, as the s Attorney General, are also investigating what were calling Campaign Finance law violations. Theyre looking at Estate Tax Felonies and possibly misdemeanor crime in falsifying Business Records at the city level. So, what that is really saying is youre not going to get a pardon if they find reasons to indict you in this at the level of the city or at the level of the state. Sure. And look, maya, we discussed the dmx defense earlier on the broadcast. It says where my dogs at. No. It doesnt say that, but what it does say is, neil, that other Celebrity Types and prominent
types have been delinquent on their taxes and avoided jail time. Maybe Michael Cohen should get that light a sentence, that slap on the wrist. And as maya alludes to, that was wholly rejected in this filing today, starting with the fact that they lay out that this was not a choice of full cooperation, he was dragged to it by his decreasingly optimistic outlook of what he could get away with. I totally agree with maya, who is a great Southern District prosecutor and has done this before, but i think id add one more thing to what she said and what youre asking about, which is prosecutors went out of their way to say this Campaign Finance visi violation is really severe. They didnt have to use all the language about the threat to democracy and things like that. So, its pretty powerful language. And to me, it suggests that they are really stealing themselves
and laying down a foundation to say these Campaign Finance violations of which there were two people involved two to tango Michael Cohen and donald trump are very, very serious. And so, i think theres a second piece, a second move on the chess board thats going on when you look at that filing today. And again, its not a filing by mueller. Its a filing by federal prosecutors in the Southern District of new york thats extraordinarily significant. And i want to bring in Jennifer Reuben and also go to a broader point, jennifer. Jennifer is a Washington Post columnist, a conservative and a critic of trump. I dont want to be too poetic, but i wonder if we can begin by noting, jennifer, that this is a president thats taken extraordinary measures, identified by his own lawyers, some of them as potentially impeachable, to try to shut down and undermine the doj and prosecutors and rule of law. So i wonder if having gone through all the details, its
fitting to turn to you and look at what is working. Career prosecutors doing their job, Career Prosecutors identifying Individual One for directing this, because thats what the facts show. Apparently, theyre not afraid of what that means or that donald trump will get in there. They dont have the same buffers that the Mueller Prosecution Team does. And that, i should note, is the Southern District of new york, where donald trump famously invited then u. S. Attorney Preet Bharara to trump tower for the rare and unusual step of having a meeting with a person who is the prosecutor for his jurisdiction, trying to cultivate him when that Didnt Work Out firing him. Preet bharara has gone on to detail all that. Gosh, it looks pretty different now that we know that was the office that was going to go forward and give a fouryear recommended Jail Sentence to trumps then lawyer cohen and recommend that trump directed it, jennifer. Right. I think there are about four or five key reassuring things that we can draw from the events over
the last few hours. The first is that facts matter. And the facts in this case do not turn on the credibility of a single individual, whether its cohen, whether its manafort. Obviously, the Special Prosecutor has a wealth of information. The Southern District has a wealth of information documentary, other witnesses, emails, texts. And so, facts do matter. Weve gotten used to saying facts dont matter because trump makes stuff up it. That doesnt work in court. The facts are presented to a court, the judge will rule on sentencing. This is the real show, so facts do matter. Second secondly, you have a slight difference of opinion here, which shows how independent that Southern District of new york is. Remember, the Southern District of new york is only involved with cohen on the issue of the Campaign Finance issues. Mueller with everything else. He has perhaps been more helpful with mueller, which is why mueller is willing to be more lenient, but he really hasnt given enough, or in the opinion
of the Southern District, enough to justify a significant reduction in penalty. And so, you see these two branches of the Justice Department, which are all under the executive branch, taking slightly different positions. Thats not bad. Thats reassuring. Thats saying people are exercising their independent judgment based upon the specific case before them, which is different, and based upon the facts before them, which is different. So, that should be reassuring, that all this bullying of the Justice Department has really amounted to nothing, because people are doing their job and proceeding. I think the third point that we should have is that it is going to be impossible, i think, at this point to either withhold a final report, if we ever have a final report, and or fire mueller, because what he is doing and what the Southern District is doing are now creating a parallel report, if you will, in the public domain, through the courts, through these filings. So, we are getting to know in realtime the extent of that information. You cant put the genie back in the bottle. You cant put the Toothpaste Back in the tube once thats out there. So, in some ways, theyve created some protection for themselves. And i think the final thing we should keep in mind is these people who have been enabling trump, whether its Rudy Giuliani, whether its people in the white house who think its fine to lie for this guy, its fine to lie to the public, you can do whatever you want because your only client, your only responsibility is to trump those people are in a heck of a lot of trouble, because those people may now be involved in actions which constitute obstruction of justice. The Fraud Exception will be making it possible for lawyers to hide behind the Attorney Client privilege. Right. And this should be a warning to people who work in government and to lawyers that you must conduct yourself within the confines of the law. Right, that you have ethical and legal obligations. Obligations, exactly. I want to do a Lightning Round with my large mueller
friday brady bunch panel here. Yes or no Lightning Round yes or no, do the events and filings of today increase the legal exposure of Individual One, donald trump, yes or no . John . Absolutely, yes. Nancy . Absolutely, yes. Maya . Oh, yeah. Neal . 100 . Jennifer . Oh, yes. Ken delainan . The answer is yes because this has been the most consequential day yet of the Mueller Investigation. That is quite a statement, given how many days there have been. I want to give a special thanks to our entire panel and the legal analysis here. And if you are joining us right now, youve been watching The Beat With Ari Melber on a day when bob mueller spoke through speaking indictments and the Southern District of new york spoke. And what we heard were two different stories that intersect with criminal activity,
confessed as well as alleged. In the case of cohen, confessed, and alleged with manafort. And obstruction of people tied to the united states. Individual one, donald trump, identified for the first time for directing a campaignrelated felony. A big day, indeed. Thank you for watching our coverage. That does it for me. You can check out the beat 6 00 p. M. Eastern on msnbc