Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline White House 20181206

Is the president s lawyer Rudy Giuliani who let some truth seep out in an interview with the atlantic. Bemoaning the president s slow pace of responding to questions and answers and suggesting that trump is less in control than his other clients. He told reporter, answering those questions was a nightmare. It took him about three weeks to do what would normally takegeni thought. From that same report, giuliani initially pushed back on the prediction that trump would take center stage after the report drops. I dont think following his lead is the right thing. Hes the client, he said. The more controlled a person is, the more intelligent they are. The more they can make the decision. But hes just like every other client. Hes not more, you know, controlled than any other client. In fact, hes a little less. Those comments from giuliani appear in an article in the atlantic titled the white house has no plan for confronting the mueller report. That report continues, while most organizations, political or otherwise, might take the time to prepare for this kind of slowmoving train, the Trump White House is all but winging it. According to a half dozen current and former white house officials. The administration has no plans in place for how to respond to the special counsels findings. Save for expecting a twitter spree. There have also been few frank conversations within the white house about the potential costs of muellers findings which could include impeachment of the president or incrimination of his inner circle. This also suggests that tomorrow when mueller files key reports on manaforts lies and cohens cooperation, the best anyone looking for white house response should hope for is an unhirchlgunhirchlg unhinged president ial tweet. Jeremy bash is here. From the Washington Post, National Political reporter and moderator of washington week, robert costa. Daniel goldman, former assistant u. S. Attorney for the Southern District of new york, now a fellow with the Brennan Center for justice, Nick Confessore with the New York Times and elise jordan, former aid in the george w. Bush white house and cohost of the podcast, words matter. All of them msnbc analysts. Let me start with you, jeremy bash. This idea that mueller who has been at work for a year and a half, its been reported widely that hes coming up with some sort of report or that there will be findings, why wouldnt a white house prepare for Something Like that . I think they are incompetent and i dont know the substance of the defense. The president has dragged this out by not meeting with the special counsel, by not sitting down with him and answering their questions. Of course, hes not able to do that because he would basically be putting himself into a situation which he would not tell the truth. Not be able to tell the truth and hed have criminal liability on much to his political liability. So i think the white house is flailing around trying to develop a strategy. I dont think theyll have one any time soon. Is there a legal is there additional legal exposure to not being prepared, or is it all in the political side that if mueller has findings that could present grounds for impeach for a democratic controlled house they need to be armed with a political strategy. It is ultimately political but you can imagine what would be an effective political strategy which is not to sit down with mueller about obstruction of justice. Not allow mueller to take his statements. Weave them into his report on muellers terms. But instead to say, you know what . Im going to put out an alternative narrative using my own statements, socalled counterreport, and that you get to control, as the president , you get to control that narrative. Your own narrative. And by all accounts, Rudy Giuliani said this summer they were doing that. Now for this to come out and just sort of throw your hands up and say, well, we dont know whether hes going to tell the truth. Hes going to go off on twitter anyway, its kind of a nutty scenario theyd sit here waiting for it with nothing to rebut it. Robert costa, also one of the explanations may be that theyre shortstaffed in one of the places where these responsibilities would fall, the White House Counsels Office. Don mcgahns replacement just getting into place now. His vetting taking longer than expected. What does your reporting unveil about how buttoned down things are in the counsels office. Finally, the president s pick to be white house counsel, is about to start at the white house. Settling in to that position after going through the background check and all of that. Hes working alongside emmitt flood who is there to protect president ial power once democrats take over and have subpoena power come january. You have this interesting dynamic where most of the staffers on the political side are trying to delegate to the White House Counsels Office not wanting to get too involved in the russia probe for obvious reasons. Not really wanting to wade into legal waters if they dont have to. And theres a belief inside the president s circle that people in the conservative media, president s allies from the 2016 campaign have to be the ones to carry the water next year when mr. Mueller issues his findings. Jeremy bash, one thing theyll have to deal with are the reports expected tomorrow from muellers investigators. Thats the details on Michael Cohens cooperation. I imagine that will trigger this president. Hes called people who cooperate with the federal government atop which he sits flippers. He said they should outlaw cooperation but well learn more about Michael Cohens cooperation and Paul Manaforts lies. Paul manafort is someone the president in the past dangled a pardon in front of. It seems like both of those sides, a potential obstruction brick in the wall for the president. What do you expect to learn tomorrow from the mueller team. Im very interested in that cohen memo. I think it will detail for the first time some of the specifics about what cohen talked with individual one about. Of course, individual one is the president of the United States. And i think were going to learn a lot more about the sense to which donald trump knew about the moscow trump tower project deep into the president ial campaign during 2016. That basically means that trump was overseeing the financial ties between the Trump Organization and the kremlin during 2016. The same time the russian delegation was coming to trump tower to talk about interfering in the election and the sanctions relief theyd get in return. Weigh in on the manafort piece. I think in some ways, thats going to be more about current issues, less about the campaign but it will show a conspiracy of sorts by manafort and his team to try to win this pardon from trump. And its really more fodder for the obstruction argument that weve been seeing building all along. Nick if it turns out the bardons are part of the obstruction case that mueller could ultimately put into a report, it feels like tomorrow could be a monumental day in terms of public facing evidence. Muellers got what hes got and well never know the whole thing until its over, if ever. But tomorrow there could be more public facing pieces of the story, and that has always been what has triggered trump, his most outrageous and venomous attacks on the special counsel and his most irrational actions. It could be an end to the shadow boxing between the white house and the trump team. That could be a very big deal. In this white house, hope is a plan. Its always been the plan. It was his plan in the primary which he won, his plan for the transition. I havent got reporting on this but its a big question in my hand. We often talk about how much mueller knows how we dont know about his state of knowledge. The question is who in the white house knows what he knows . Who has the president shared his worst misgivings and worst things with on his own team . How prepared are they . Its very possible in this white house other than don mcgahn who is now departed, who would know . I dont know. And the question is, is it possible for a white house to repair for a bunch of revelations they havent been told about and cant even imagine because the president wont tell them . Elise, let me put up a list of what cohen witnesses. Cohen witnessed business dealings with russia about the trump tower moscow. We learned about that last week. He witnessed hush money payments to women and negotiations around the trump tower meeting. He claims that included Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner, donald trump jr. And the russians. And he witnessed trump org and Trump Foundation Business Practices which are under scrutiny not just by the federal government and fbi but by the new York State Attorney general. You can go through there and plenty of possibility for hot spots of legal trouble. Just with number one. Potential violation of the foreign corrupt practices act when they were promising putin a 50 million apartment in moscow if the trump tower went through. This happening throughout the 2016 president ial campaign. You have the finance violations, the knowledge of the Business Practices of the Trump Organization which i think could be even even worse potentially than anything else. When you look at some of the reporting done by reporters such as Adam Davidson at the new yorker about the trump project and you look at how money was being funneled through the Iran Revolutionary guards and a lot of the financial journalists in new york city who have followed the Trump Organization for a long time say its all there in the open and i wonder if that isnt going to be true. Donald trump doesnt have much of a poker face and if theres one phase of all this that triggered him the most it was that raid of Michael Cohens offices. He described them as an attack on the nation. What is your reporting . You and your colleagues have been extraordinary reporting on the sdny tentacles and how deep they reach into trumps businesses and his family and associates. What do you expect tomorrow . We expect the president to erupt about whatever mr. Cohen has done inside of the white house. Our sources say that he is telling people he feels betrayed by Michael Cohen. He took a chance to Michael Cohen years ago and that he expects more. And so this idea theres not even a belief inside the white house that he is somehow going to hold back with Michael Cohen. That hes just going to go, this is the beginning of the political war. The tension really is not about cohen, nicolle, but about Paul Manafort. A lot of republicans are worried about a possible pardon of Paul Manafort. Would that be truly, for republicans who have taken a lot of pain, a step too far. Daniel, let me turn to Matthew Whitaker, the acting attorney general. I believe this week 400 former doj officials came out in opposition to his appointment. The Washington Post ed board sums up the stillunanswered questions around the whitaker appointment. Did he examine the flynn sentencing memo . Has he seen the material that mueller redacted from that document . Has he sought the advice of Justice Department ethics experts on how much he should be involved in the russia investigation and, if so, what do those experts say . I guess if you have any insights into the answers of any of those questions is my first question to you. And the second part is, what kind of exposure does Matthew Whitaker have if he takes a wrong step. He seems young enough, ambitious enough and in buddying up to donald trump, craven enough to know better than to reach into the Mueller Probe and mess it up too badly. I think thats right, and i think Matthew Whitaker now, assuming this really significant powerful role, may look at things a little differently. From a technical standpoint, if he has not recused himself, he can have access. He is overseeing the investigation, and he can see any documents, materials that they have. And once when youre inside the bubble, nothing is redacted. You only redact things right as youre about to file it for the public. So hed absolutely see it. The big question about Matthew Whitaker is, has he consulted with the ethics folks at the department of justice, which is a really significant thing. But its also whether hes back channeling anything to the president. And on that topic, i actually think the most significant thing that will come out tomorrow in the manafort stuff that we are going to be able to see is perhaps whether or not manaforts attorneys were coordinating or relaying information back to trump and whether that dont we know already they were . The New York Times reported they were sharing information with trumps attorneys. Giuliani says they were. And one of the things and manaforts attorney downey said they were. We know they were talking. So the question is the question is what they were saying. Whats the legal implication of that kind of coordination. If i thought someones lawyer was leaking stuff to the lawyers for a subject of the investigation, i would shut it down right there. Maybe thats why they ripped up manaforts cooperation. Thats whats interesting. Well learn what it is. But all of this back channeling to the president , either potentially from whitaker, even the fact that were asking that question is troubling. And thats an appearance of conflict and also with manafort. Those are two really significant questions. Jeremy, why would the president of the United States need his Defense Attorneys to back channel with Defense Attorneys for convicted felon Paul Manafort . Yeah, because he wants to avert at all costs anybody turning states evidence and testifying against him. The most powerful weapon bob mueller has is the ability to reduce the sentences from those for whom hes won convictions. Hes done that with mike flynn and Michael Cohen, and the potent dwrool ial to do it with gates. And donald trump is fearful that any one of those people can hand bob mueller significant information about the president s knowledge and culpability on all of these matters. Robert costa, i want to ask you about a couple of names floating around for ag. Chris christie. He said on television, which is usually a way of making sure donald trump hears it is his understanding of the search for ag is whitaker is there to land the plane, land the mueller investigation. Whether thats ftrue or not, tie will bear out. One of the leading names out there is william barr. Your colleague aaron blake tweeted this. He said more clinton probes are needed. Uranium one is more worthy of investigation than collusion. He said the comey firing was aokay. That muellers teams doanations are too left leaning and its okay for president s to request specific investigations. Those are outside the mainstream, i think, of even republican legal thought. Chris christie at least is against a few of those. Shep smith at fox thinks uranium one is hokeypokey. I guess thats what makes william barr such a strong candidate for attorney general in trumps mind. He doesnt have a personal relationship with President Trump. But it raises questions about governor christies relationship with the Trump White House. A lot of my top sources have always said christie, even though he was the frontrunner for ag, he was really a long shot for ag because of his tensions with Jared Kushner and ivanka trump. As we remember, prosecuted kushners father. Thats always been a cloud over the relationship. Everyone has happy talk and says thats been papered over and thats in the past. The past is never past, as William Faulkner once said. Nick, what do you see in this collision of whitaker and all the problems. Whitaker also under investigation by the fbi for his role in a company thats now known to have committed fraud to its customers. Really outside the mainstream of republican legal thought. It feels like the foxification of justice or the breitbartification. Its not hard to find a lawyer who didnt serve on the bridgegate scandal, who hasnt called for the investigation of the clintons. They do exist. Its weird they dont get somebody who is totally respectable. Jeff sessions is a conservative. People didnt like his views he is a right wing nut. But he was qualified for that job. And he was not out of the mainstream as far as his views on prosecution or justice. He testified before the Judiciary Committee that a Second Special counsel was not needed in Hillary Clinton and that was probably the death nell. The fact theyre choosing not to find these people is significant to me. Speaks volumes. Thank you so much for spend something time with us. After the break conflict of interest. Could donald trump be compromised by another Foreign Government . Well find out. And she shines his golf trophies and now speaking out about his language against immigrants because she is one. How the celebration of a life of Public Service has left the current president out in the cold. Looks great, honey. Right . Sometimes you need an expert. I got it. And sometimes those experts need experts. On it. [ crash ] and sometimes the expert the expert needed Needs Insurance expertise. Its all good. Steve, youre covered for general liability. And, paul, we got your back with workers comp. Wow, its like a party in here. Where are the hors doeuvres, right . [ clanking ] tartlets . We cover commercial vehicles, too. I think theres something wrong with your sink. We cover commercial vehicles, too. Unstopand its strengthenedting place, the by xfi pods,gateway. Which plug in to extend the wifi even farther, past anything that stands in its way. Well almost anything. Leave no room behind with xfi pods. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Click or visit a retail store today. Another week, another round of questions about potential conflicts of interest surrounding donald trump. This time its not the russians. Instead its another country hes been accused of treating with otherwise inexplicable leniency in the face of the brutal murder of a u. S. Resident, saudi arabia. The Washington Post offers another possible clue as to why hes so chummy with the saudis. Washington post reporting just a month after the election, lobbyists representing the saudi government started reserving blocks of rooms at trumps luxury hotel in washington. About 500 nights in total across just three months. Those rooms were part of a free trip to washington for some u. S. Military veterans. But this wasnt exactly charity. They were given open bars, a free dinner and sent to capitol hill to lobby on behalf of the saudis legislative goals. From that post report, at first lobbyists for the saudis put the veterans up in northern virginia. In december 2016, they switched most of their business to the Trump International hotel in downtown washington. In all, the lobbyists spent more than 270,000 to house six groups of visiting veterans at the trump hotel which trump still owns. Joining us from the Washington Post, one of the reporters bylined on the story. And joining us at the table, eddie and bret stevens. All msnbc analysts. Nick and elise are still here. David, take us through what you are reporting and its significance. Well, one of the things weve really focused on and wanted to know since trump got elected was, how are Foreign Governments using trumps businesses, which he still owns, how are they using those businesses to try to influence trump . So first you want to understand which Foreign Governments are paying money to trumps businesses. This is a really big one. We looked at all these difference trips and figured out the saudis put six different groups of veterans up at trumps hotel. 500 rooms. At least 270,000 going into that hotel. David, it seems like this is icky on a couple levels. Where does icky cross into illegal. The saudis sending American Veterans to lobby for their legislative goals. I want to talk about that icky thing next but ask you without using the emoluments word where the president is in legal trouble with potential pay to play. I know were way past normal with the trump family and their businesses. You mentioned emoluments. This is the first anticorruption statute was put into the constitution. They arent allowed to take emoluments from Foreign Governments. And the reason we dont talk about that that much is because for many years, for centuries, president s wanted to stay way away from that line and didnt even come close to taking money from Foreign Governments. Trump has thrown that caution to the wind. Hes continued to do business with his foreign customers. So theres a couple of lawsuits going. The most advanced one from the d. C. And maryland attorneys general saying trump takes money and hes violating the constitution. Its at an interesting juncture. The attorneys general have put in requests for discovery. Theyve gotten that far on the case where they say, trump org, tell us all your foreign customers what they paid for and what they got. Thats a First Comprehensive accounting that anybody outside trumps business has gotten of who trumps foreign customers even are. And it seems there are no coincidences in trump world and saudis it seems like something youll stay on. I want to ask about the saudi tactic of using veterans to lobby for their legislative goals. Tell us more about that. This is really unusual. Its not its very common for american domestic lobbying groups to do these flyins. They bring people to lobby their congressman. You see a flyin of the iowa corn counsel or beef producers of texas. Its really unusual that a Foreign Government would organize Something Like this. Especially that theyd organize something and not tell the veterans who were doing it that theyre really working for the saudis. It would be dishonest but also ineffective. The point of these trips was to change minds on capitol hill about a law that the saudis didnt like. But the veterans got nowhere and one of the reasons was, as soon as people figured out the saudis were funding this, every office they came into, the members would say, arent you getting paid by the saudi ss you dont even know that . And that makes you an ineffective lobbyist. Hes done reporting on the corruption side, the corrupt Business Practices side of trump and his family. And this seems like something that should be flashing red lights for all of us. The most distressing thing is how cheaply you can buy the president. I mean, 270,000 is not a great deal of money in the grand scheme of things. But, look, obviously the saudis understand that trump is suggestible. They understand that he is thinks in purely mercantile and mercenary terms. And they believe that they can get a value for their dollar, in part because trump is so vain and has talked up that very hotel for so long. And in fact, thats precisely what it is theyre getting. Theres a perfectly reasonable, hardheaded case why when all issed is and done we need some kind of relationship with the kingdom of saudi arabia. The kingdom of saudi arabia, not mohammad bin salman, the psycho young ruler who thinks its okay to go and murder journalists with bone saws in the capitals of adversarial countries, neighboring countries. To suggest what they got, that extraordinary statement from President Trump outlining with his multiple exclamation points why its so important to maintain this friendship with saudi arabia was astonishing. It read like an eighth grade teenage crush letter more than it did a statement of critique by the patron in a patron client relationship with saudi arabia. So the saudis arent so stupid. At least they know their mark. I can remember that rather dramatic moment when he had all of the papers showing that he had divested. Stacks of papers. What we see is that all were missing were the steaks and the water bottles. What we see is that donald trump is an expert level grifter. That was a dungeons and dragons reference. An expert level grifter and the mercantile mercenary approach. That donald trump is always operating in the interest of donald trump. And the question we have to ask ourselves is, when that interest actually conflicts with the interest of the nation. And what we see is that that is clearly happening now. What id like to point out that plenty of the u. S. Military veterans who were used by the saudis, they realized it and became quite angry. Donald trump still doesnt realize that he is being duped and used. So we all should be angry on behalf of our veterans that the saudis are trying to enlist troops, who some of them were wounded fighting and defending our country on foreign soil. Trying to use them for their own propaganda purposes. To fight against 9 11 families, by the way. It feels like a scandal wrapped in a scandal. Those important client base of the trump hotel are protrump tourists, lobbyists, people who work from trump and travelers from places where its normal to grease the families that rule the place with some money in their establishments. When you go there, its the orths dox Church Clerics sche sn for a conference. I believe she moved her Christmas Party to the trump hotel. They all see this as a way of currying favor. If i was the president , id be a little embarrassed these people think im such a cheap date. We know hes not capable of embarrassment or shame. Where do you think this story goes next, david . Theres a couple of places. Theres that lawsuit pushing forward, trying to learn more details. A complaint filed by the 9 11 families with the Justice Department, alleging the saudis were breaking the law by the way this operation was carried out. Im interested to see. The last of these flyins, the last of these trips the saudis paid for was february 2017. Did the saudis stop putting money into the trump hotel or change format . Change into some format where the money came in in a form its harder to trace . We know youll get to the bottom of it. Come back. After the break, the incredible sclichrinking west w workforce. That story is next. That geico has been offering savings for over 75 years. Thats longer than the buffalo wings been around. Dozen wings. And did you know that geico. lips smacking offers mo. coughing motorcycle insurance . Hoho. My lips are burning. laughs ah. No, my lips are actually burning. Geico. Over 75 years of savings and service. See how much you could save at geico. Com. Its too hot. 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Before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. Common side effects include low red blood cell and low platelet counts, infections, tiredness, nausea, sore mouth, abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, hair thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. Carla calls it her new normal because a lot has changed, but a lot hasnt. Ask your doctor about ibrance. The 1 prescribed fdaapproved oral Combination Treatment for hr her2 mbc. Administrations make changes usually after midterms. And probably well be right in that category, too. I think its very custom. No timeline. No timeline. For the most part, i love my cabinet. We have some really talented people. Look at the deals were making on trade. Look at the job weve done in so many Different Things, including foreign affairs. For u. N. Ambassador . Very good. Ill announce before end of the week. That was a month ago. We still dont know who nikki haleys replacement will be. The president has staffing issues across his entire cabinet. Politico sums it up. President trump is still looking for a u. N. Ambassador. He has no Deputy National security adviser. His attorney general and eepa administrator are serving in acting capacity and his constant bad mouthing of his chief of staff and secretary of Homeland Security have undermined their authority. Trump has offered almost nothing in the way of a legislative vision for 2019 beyond approval of a new trade deal and vague references to infrastructure. His only clear priority is enforcing border security. Behind his dysfunction are many factors. Eli stokol of the l. A. Times points out few Top Republicans want to join administration staffers facing iffy job prospects and are reluctant to lead. Potus doesnt actually like firing people. Multiple cabinet meetings are daunting. This seems like one of the hallmarks of incompetence that jeremy bash referenced at the top of the show. They cant even, with competence, fill the jobs. And that was one of the centerpieces of trumps brand. That hed bring in the best people. Its not just that. I think it is all the factors eli highlights. Its a complex of things that make it hard to fill these jobs. Its also important to understand the fall out from it. It actually hurts the president s own policies. If you get into the weeds in rule making around the administration, when you stop filling the senateconfirmable jobs for assistant and deputy on down the line, you actually cant do certain things in terms of policy making. It shuts down the machinery. And he cant even do his dereg stuff. Its important to have personnel in place. Maybe thats a silver lining. He cant carry out his whackadoo agenda without these people in place. The other piece is i alone can fix it. He said in an interview that he didnt see the need to have ambassadors posted all around the world because he could handle it himself. Because all the foreign leaders like him. Other than putin, who likes him . He didnt see the need to have a properly staffed embassy. Donald trump thinks he can literally do everything and incompetence ensues. Who wants to work for this guy . Right. Theres a very good chance youll be in office for less than two years. Senate confirmation is a brutal process, even under the best of circumstances. Your reputation is going to be tarnished among future employers and youll have a boss likely to bad mouth you. And attack you on twitter. So youll walk out the crippled, morally as well as perhaps emotionally, for the rest of your life, all for the pleasure of working for a dysfunctional and sinister administration. There are these conflicting currents. Obviously theres ignorance, combined with incompetence and then ideology. Remember, steve bannon and his three buckets. One of the buckets was deconstruct the Administrative State. One of the ways you do it is to, what . Starve it. Leave it to dysfunction. And so theres an ideological undercurrent to this alongside the ignorance and incompetence. That strengthens the Administrative State because if there is no deputy secretary, if theres no political oversight, then the bureaucracies tend to their own interests. So among other problems with it is it achieves the opposite result of the one he intends and its perfect trump. Nick . Look, im going to come back to the fact, sometimes if you want to repeal a rule from obama you have to pass a new rule. And its just as much work as the first rule. If you dont have people in place to do it, you cant get it done. So it takes basically two administrations. Two fouryear terms to have a major impact on the shape on policy. Of the government. I thought of this yesterday and well get to the final leg of president h. W. Bushs sendoff. But i want to ask you about this and well get into this, but every article about the funeral, the service yesterday celebrating george h. W. Bush made the point that just reciting his resume as a lifelong public servant, as someone who revered the cia which he led, revered the u. N. Where he served as ambassador, who was gratified by being an ambassador of this country to china. Served as vice president. Just by reciting a life of service in the federal government, that in and of itself was a rebuke of trump and trumpism. Thats exactly right. Because bush understood, as ambitious as he was, anyone who becomes president is ambitious, that there have to be moral limits to that ambition for ones own sanity as well as for the good of the country. And he also understood, and this is an important conservative point. The belief of conservatives is not the destruction of government. Its the belief that government serves certain purposes and in order for it to achieve those purposes, it has to be efficient. It has to be limited. It has to care about the things that matter most. What you have here is a kind of principle of imbessilic anarchism which is blow things up in no particular order, matched with a kind of narcissism as you put it so well, that he alone can fix it. I heard from more democrats in my life than republicans yesterday during this who said, and im guessing you didnt agree with george h. W. Bush on policy matters but there was a reverence for the federal government, for the institutions he served. That even if you debated at a partisan level how best to and Michelle Obama makes this point in her book tour when asked about her friendship with george w. Bush. We had debates about how to solve our problems but it felt like thats what was lost yesterday. We experienced the same kind of sense of loss with the loss of john mccain. That these deaths served as a proxy of something that everyone felt. That the institutions themselves werent working. And that the folks who had stepped up to be public servants, many of them were just selfserving, that theyre really not interested in anything beyond themselves in some ways. And so the idea of people dedicating their lives to the pursuit of a notion of the good for the country seems to be at a loss, particularly when you have someone, a narcissist like donald trump, who seems at least to me, i keep using seem here, but seems to me to be the outcome of a society that has turned on itself. That only seems preoccupied with achieving its own individual dreams as opposed to the dreams of the club. Also the 41st president s long journey home. It was here. I couldnt catch my breath. It was the last song of the night. It felt like my heart was skipping beats. They said i had afib. Whats afib . I knew that meant i was at a greater risk of stroke. I needed answers. My doctor and i chose xarelto® to help keep me protected from a stroke. Oncedaily xarelto®, a latestgeneration blood thinner significantly lowers the risk of stroke in people with afib not caused by a heart valve problem. Warfarin interferes with at least 6 of your bodys natural bloodclotting factors. Xarelto® is selective, targeting just one critical factor. For afib patients well managed on warfarin, there is limited information on how xarelto® compares in reducing the risk of stroke. Dont stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. While taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. Xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. It may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. Get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. Do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. 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There will be an arrival ceremony and the former president will be taken to his president ial library nearby and laid to rest next to his wife barbara and their daughter robin who died of leukemia when she was just 3 years old. Joining us is nancy gibes, author of the president s club. We spent the day together yesterday. This is the final, final leg of the journey for the 41st president. What do you make a day after all the pomp and circumstance yesterday of that nostalgia that was palpable yesterday for a time when people could disagree but not be disagreeable . Its really true. There were so many emotions stacked on each other. One certainly was just honor and respect for the man, but there was also a nostalgia for a different way of doing business. And with 3,000 people in that cathedral representing so many crucial american and global institutions that president bush 41 revered and strengthened and served that the notion that our institutions are failing us, that public trust in institutions has been declining steadily is something that would be heartbreaking to someone like that president and those who shared his faith that Public Service and the institutions through which they serve are essential to our collective success. Nancy, i want to read something phil rucker reported today. Bush funeral, trump sits with fellow president s but still stands alone. It was President Trump who seemed most out of place. For about two hours he sat in silence. The rare event at which the president was not the center of attention but merely an observer. Since learning of bushs death late friday, trump has striven to be magnanimous to act president ial. Trump opened the doors of blair house to host the bushes. Dispatched air force one to carry the late president s body and members of the bush family to and from houston. All the while refrained from publicly reacting to the nearly weeklong celebration of bushs life and its contrast with trumps. Its still a story of a stark contrast. And even with this man, my old boss, the 43rd president , who was viewed as an incredibly partisan and divisive figure at the time of his presidency, but trumps presidency to be frank has lifted him up and his father. Its true. I mean, when you looked at those president s all in a row together, all of them are used to being the center of attention. 99. 9 of the time anywhere that the obam as go, that the clintons go, they are the center of attention. Michelle obama is filling stadiums all around the country right now. So each of them knows what it is to be, you know, a magnet for all eyes. And, yet, they also understood that in that moment, they are not the center of attention. And that seemed a more uncomfortable and unusual position for the current president. And the current president is always, you know, that much more of a magnet. But this one in particular, the discomfort was so transparent in the body language. In one sentence, one of the extraordinary things of his transparency of whether what hes thinking that we can constantly see in what hes tweeting or what hes feeling which you can see in the slouch or the arms or the grimace, there is no attempt at feigning interest or congeniality. Maybe thats something people respond to. But in the setting yesterday, i think a lot of people were struck by not participating in the service as the others did. It was a remarkable contrast. And Nick Confessore, there was a moment to me that sort of showed what nancy is describing. When george w. Bush walked down the center of that cathedral, he shook the current president s hand, shook melanias hand but his face george w. Bush doesnt have an emotion hes capable of hiding, and his face sort of exploded into a big warm smile. He reached with his left hand and took out a candy and handed it to Michelle Obama. And that wasnt for the cameras. That was just a jefgesture, an inside joke between two families who really, they couldnt have represented more Different Things from a political or an ideological standpoint, but there is a real and genuine friendship. That seems to be the legacy of the 41st president. Theres a quality of grace here that you see that i think is a bit absent from this white house. This president struggles to summon even in these moments. I think that is true. And im looking at this footage right now and i am thinking a little differently, though, about how this is in some ways a requiem for an age in american politics when the public had a lot more faith in institutions and leaders to serve them. And in some ways, its fitting that ceremony where President Trump in some sense, the result of that loss of faith. He is, in some sense, the result of our leaders and our elites failure to deliver for most of the american people. Or just the perception that thats the case. You look at the candidacies of mitt romney and paul ryan, where the republican brand was in the hands of those two men, and they couldnt sell free and fair trade. They couldnt sell capitalism. It was during that president ial campaign was obama was reele reelected for a second term that the voters chose obamacare, which republicans railed against. The voters, republicans thought, that the actions taken after the financial collapse might swerve back to republicans, they didnt. They won it with the democrats. Youre still talking about policy differences or ideological differences, but the american system is unique in many respects. But one of the ways in which its unique, we dont have a queen. We dont have a head of state. The president is both the head of government and the head of state. And traditionally, all the president s you saw on that pew, with the exception of donald trump, understood that one of the roles of the presidency, and perhaps the most important one, was to fill in as head of state. Think of george bush on the wreckage of the world trade center. Think of president obama the night that Osama Bin Laden was killed or, frankly, the night that he was elected. President clinton at Oklahoma City and so on. At each of those moments, they understood that they had to and were capable of being the head of serving that role as head of state and thats why we respond to them. Trump has never been able to rise to the occasion where hes more than simply the president of the people who voted for him and the implaquable enemy of anyone who different. Its a perfect analysis, eddie, and it explains some of the sadness that i think, democrats and republicans felt yesterday. The other thing that, to me, was so abundantly clear yesterday is that weve never had a president before so publicly at war with the institutions he leads. We were talking earlier in the hour about the vicious smears against bob mueller. Who is bob mueller . He worked for the president in the middle of that shot. But president obama, i think, advanced legislation so that bob mueller could stay on as head of the fbi. George w. Bushs pick to lead the fbi was extended by president obama. We now have a president at war with that man. Yeah, theres something about this moment, something is gone. Something is dead and something is dying. The question is, what is going to be born in this aftermath . And i think donald trump represents he could be the avatar of all of our sins, but something is dying. About and it the story weve told ourselves, about who we are as americans, will have to come to terms with something in the coffin. It may be h. W. Bush here, 41, but something about who we are is dying. And donald trump represents this ugliness that has bubbled up from the dark, dank secellars o this country. And the question for us will be, who we will be in the aftermath of this moment, in the after times . And what dark beast has around come round at last to be born . I cant top that. I took it a different way yesterday. I was so sad and mourned the passing of a truly great statesman, but and i mourn the fundamental decency that died with him somewhat, but i also was very hopeful, hearing about his legacy, and hearing about the way he treated people, his decency. And all the people who showed up at his funeral to celebrate that life and celebrate those achievements, it made me think that our country is better than what were doing right now and is going to come out of this. Nick, your colleague peter baker wrote a great piece about how even in the eulogies, there were subtle rebukes, that it wasnt the mccain funeral for its sort of frontal rebuke of the man, donald trump, but in the celebration of bushs legacy of, with nato, and sort of the stories told by another world leader about the copious notes he took while other foreign leaders spoke and at the end of their, you know, meetings, he made a joke that the smaller the country, the longer the speech. Its a subtlety and nuance about interactions that this president sort of most high profile moment on the world stage was to side with Vladimir Putin over his own intelligence community. Its such a departure from, you know, as youve all been saying, the way america views its leaders and their roles on the world stage. Yeah, well, look, the president sat there and listened. And im curious what he heard. And i dont know the answer to that. But he was there, and i wonder if he heard a rebuke or if he thought perhaps i can change, perhaps i can live up to this. In the past, we have probably had 50 conversations around this table about, will he change, will he come to some Greater Light or grow into this role . Hope springs eternal. America is full of reinvention. Im going to put on my optimist hat here for a second. This country has always reinv t reinvented itself and improved itself over time. Nancy, do you think thats why he was included yesterday . Do you think there was some hope among the 41st president , his family, that he might soak up some of the statesmanship that was on display, some of the bush family and frankly, i dont want to leave the obamas and the carters and the clintons all of it. They all sat together and represented the same thing. A patriotism that meant in their own and different ways strengthening american institutions. Right, its not like they all agree with one another, but they agree on the importance of the institution. And, you know, weve never, ever, ever in our history elected someone with so little experience in political life, in public life, or understanding of the presidency as we just did. I dont think thats an accident. And in a sense, there was a sense that this youre going to school on the institution of the presidency and the values that have to inform it. Doesnt matter, doesnt mean agreeing with each other on the policies or the way those values should be interpreted in what you do, but it does mean that you honor the office and one thing all of those men in that row v hhave had in common, even the arguments they had with each other, they helped each other to strengthen that office and to make it work for the american people, so, i share i share nicks optimism, as well. This is a crucible, and yes, a lot of things are being crushed. I do think that these institutions have to adjust to the times that were in, and the voters, the voters said a version of that in 2016 and they amended that in the most recent election, and thats a process were going to keep watching unfold. What were watching unfold on our screens right now is the 41st president , george h. W. Bushs casket being taken to its final resting spot, which is at his president ial lie brarl in College Station. Its where his wife, barbara, is buried, and their young daughter, robin, who was 3 years old when she lost her battle against leukemia. Robin, one of 41s favorite stories to tell was that robin used to say, i love you more than tongue can tell. And it seems like this moment yesterday was something that the country loved more than tongue could tell, this image of the carters next to the clintons, next to the obamas, there to honor the bushes. All of those men and women represent us. Donald trump is barren soil. Theres no reason to have faith in him. The evidence is in. But we can have faith in ourselves. So, if were going to reimagine america, if were going to reinvent ourselves, its going to be up to us, not him. You agree . You know, i do, and i also agree with nick. This country has remarkable a remarkable capacity for renewal. And we have gone through periods of social turmoil, loss of faith in institutions, civil war, periods in which civil rights were far more brutally suppre suppressed than they are now. You know, you just cant help but hope and you have to hope that were better than this. And i think if bush has one final legacy, and an important one, its to remind us of that fact. Elise, i said this yesterday, it felt like a torch was passed from the father to the son, and whether he wanted to or not, the 43rd president , with his, you know, sort of new Public Relationship there with Michelle Obama, with the embrace of bill clinton, even in the eulogy for his father, and all the men for whom 41 served as father figures, it seemed that 43 took on the mantle of the patriarch of this family that stands for more than just the 43rd president s presidency and its highlights and its very well documented low points. But this spirit, this idea of preservation of the office of the american presidency. Yesterday, president bush, the son, was leading the ceremony in the sense that the decency that came out of it was reflected by how it was simply a celebration of america. It was simply a celebration of the best among us. Which george h. W. Bush was. And by not going partisan, george w. Bush helped remind us just how starved we are for decency in American Public life. And im going to leave you with that picture, get ready to put to rest one of our points of light, one of my points of light, the 41st president. Thanks to nancy, brett, nick, elise. Thats it for this hour. Im any coko nicolle wallace. Mtp daily is next with chuck todd. Good evening, im chuck todd here in new york. And welcome to mtp daily. Moments ago, president george h. W. Bushs remains arrived by train in College Station. Next is a burial ceremony at the george bush president ial library. We will be keeping an eye on these proceedings as the