Former associates to lie in front of congress or federal investigators when asked about them. The New York Times is reporting this afternoon that the president s lawyers say the president was asked about building a trump tower in moscow and that his responses are, quote, aligned with those of his longtime fixer Michael Cohen. Michael cohens Court Appearance today adds to our understanding of what the president knew and when he knew it when it came to those real estate efforts in moscow. Cohen admitting he spoke to the president more extensively and during the summer of the general Election Campaign about the moscow project. Cohen was charged in a manhattan courthouse today by muellers prosecutors. This is his first charge from the mueller team since cohens guilty plea in august. He has reportedly spent 70 hours with federal investigators. Presumably it was through those hours of interviews that cohen revealed inconsistencies in his own congressional testimony. Today he detailed those inconsistencies in court. From that transcript, cohen says, quote, i had asserted that all efforts concerning a project had ceased in january of 2016 when, in fact, they had continued through june of 2016. Quote, that i had very limited discussions with trump and others concerning this project, when, in fact, i had more extensive communications. Lastly, that i had never agreed to travel to russia in connection with the project and never asked trump to travel, when, in fact, i took steps to and had discussions with trump about travel to russia. Cohen then added this. Quote, i made these misstatements to be consistent with trumps political messaging and out of loyalty to trump. The president , though, responded with a harsh attack on cohen. What hes trying to do, because hes a weak person. And not a very smart person. What hes trying to do is end and its very simple. Hes got himself a big prison sentence. And hes trying to get a much lesser prison sentence by making up a story. Now heres the thing. Even if he was right, it doesnt matter because i was allowed to do whatever i wanted during the campaign. I was running my business. A lot of Different Things during the campaign. So very simply, Michael Cohen is lying. And hes trying to get a reduced sentence for things that have nothing to do with me. Get that . In a category of the world is watching all of this unfold, its important to let you know that the president abruptly canceled a scheduled meeting with Vladimir Putin almost immediately following Michael Cohens Court Appearance today. Here to take us through the days dramatic developments, from the New York Times, mike schmidt, former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence, Frank Figliuzzi, matt miller, former spokesman for the Justice Department and here at the table, donny deutsch, a friend of Michael Cohens is here, and emily jane fox, vanity fairs senior reporter, inside the courtroom today, and tim obrien for bloomberg. Take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting today about how someone who is cooperating extensively, someone who spent 70 hours helping and aiding the Mueller Probe end upped charged with a new crime today. Yeah, a new crime today about these statements that came to congress. More interesting to us is what we tried to focus on. How did this line up with what the president said just two weeks ago . The president s lawyers think that mueller is trying to lay a perjury trap for the president. They were very, very nervous about that. So what happens today is they see cohens plea and immediately they wonder and we were wondering, too, how does that match up with what the president said under oath . The president sending in written responses to mueller. This was one of the questions. This is one of the things he had to address. After some pressing, the president s lawyers acknowledged to us these two things do line up. That the president did acknowledge talking to cohen in his responses to muellers office. And then saying, look, this is fine. The interesting thing is the president then goes out and calls cohen a liar and, you know, saying that cohen had lied. If cohen was lying today, then hes actually in disagreement with the president. I guess a little trumpian kind of incident there where you get confused but at the end of the day, the president s lawyer saying, look, were fine. I say this with all respect to the New York Times. The last four paragraphs of your story reads like something out of the onion. Let me read it to you. So you guys report so hes lying very simply in order to get a reduced sentence, okay. That was the president. The clip we just showed. He was leaving the white house for the group of 20 meeting in buenos aires. Mr. Giuliani sought to explain why mr. Trump could attack mr. Cohen, sfrn they had the same understanding of the facts. He had so many different versions of the same story so by definition hes a liar. And we cant trust him, giuliani said of cohen. Hes lied. How can we believe him . He added cohen has just told us hes a liar. Given the fact hes a liar i cant tell you what heess lying about. Is their position the president is a lying liar just like cohen . What is their position . I think what they are trying to say is that even though the stories match up, Michael Cohen is someone who should not be trusted. They are very afraid about Michael Cohen. Youve talked about the extensive nature of his cooperation with mueller. They are fearful of what cohen has done. Cohen has taken the government rat on this. Hes gone in a different place than manafort. Manaforts only hope is apart from the president at this point. Bob mueller isnt going to go in to court. The president would understandably be concerned about that. This is someone who was directly in the president s orbit for the campaign, for many years in his business before that. Talking to the president after he became into office. So they are trying and as they did over the summer when cohen first pled guilty to undermine cohens credibility as much as possible. Call him a liar. The president has called him a rat before. Frank figliuzzi, donald trump has also asserted for many, many months, i have nothing to do with russia. I have nothing to do with russia. I dont have any jobs. No deals in russia. She always likes to tie me to russia. I dont have going to do with russia. How many times do i have to answer this question. Russia is a ruse. Today when i run for president that doesnt mean im not allowed to do business. I was doing lots of Different Things. Obviously after i won i dont do business. But from january 20th and the following year, i ran a business. I often joke about the fact i was the only person in the campaign that campaigned and ran a business. No longer denying ties to russia. Do you think that todays Development Effective lie obliterates his repeated assertions he had no ties to russia . Nicolle, this is just the tip of a very jagged iceberg called russia. And the iceberg is about to collide with a ship called the white house. Dw yes, i think nthat were learnig on a daily basis at the president has been lying to us about things big and small. Im confident that this is a huge iceberg that were about to see collide with the white house. The second thing im confident about, nicolle, is that theres much more to this information than meets the eye. The information that was filed today. Its part of a larger strategy. Its part of a strategy that mueller has to become whitakerproof. Lock in the facts. Lock in the charges before the president can lash out and make something happen against the mueller team. The other part of this strategy is to keep telling us the story through informations and indictments. So people keep waiting for this big report to come out. But you need to look at this more like a netflix season of episodes. Were watching episode by episode by episode. You can binge watch when the report comes out or you can just keep up with the season. This is another episode thats developing. And note that mueller took this charge himself. He signed the plea agreement himself. He did not give this to Southern District of new york and hes done it for a reason. Hes laying it down. The other thing, nicolle, it was a gray area in my mind whether mueller would go after lying to congress because you can argue that congress is the victim when theyre lied to and that they would need to be a complainant. But today mueller said, if you lie to congress, you are lying to the american people, and thats something i will handle. Matt miller, let me throw two more data points in there. A former federal prosecutor confirmed exactly what Frank Figliuzzi just laid out. This is a ladder prosecution. That probably means more to you than to me but explained as sort of securing that rung, in this case, Michael Cohen, squeezing every bit of information out of him before you move on to the next step. The second being a u. S. Government source telling me today this investigation is still squarely under the command and control of the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein and his staff and that acting attorney general Matt Whitaker has not involved himself in either the cooperation that Michael Cohen engaged in or the charge against him today. I think that second piece is a critical piece of news because until now weve wondered just what control, if any, Matt Whitaker has taken and weve wondered, has he gone to the ethics officials and cleared himself which hed need to do because of the apparent conflicts of interest. If Rod Rosenstein still is in charge, its a reassuring thing and hopefully something that lasts for some time. In terms of what the plea agreement means today, youre right to look at this as the special counsel moving his way up the ladder as hes been doing and i would look at this document. Not just the the signif scanse not that Michael Cohen plead guilty. Hes plead guilty to much more serious charges than the one today. The charge today will give him a sentence of 0 to 6 months in prison. Likely it gets fold inside with the other charges hes already plead guilty to in the Southern District of new york. The significance is what he laid out in the plea agreement. You look at today in the same way when he charged the first russian indictment, he laid out this legal architecture of conspiracy to defraud the united states. He laid out the legal architecture for which, you know, hed charge other individuals, both russians and americans in the future. Today was laying out the architecture for how he can bring charges or how he can show criminality by others. So you have to look at the people in the plea agreement. Individual one. Who is the person that flies around on air force one and marine one . Look at the trump family members named in this plea agreement. I think when you want to look at what comes next, thats the way to think about what happened today and thats whats in this document. Just about everything i know about Donald Trumps ties to russia, i know from our next guest. Joining us by phone, my friend and colleague rachel maddow. Ive been dying since i saw this, this morning, to know your thoughts. Well, i had different thoughts until you just said something that blew my mind. You just broke a significant piece of news, nicolle. Could you reiterate about Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein still overseeing mueller and not whitaker . I think people that cover this have known this to be the case. Its something that people check in on a daily basis is the special counsel investigation still under the direction and management of the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, as it has been since its ince inception. And im told today that that is still the case. The charges or the charge brought against Michael Cohen today, as i think matt or frank said, has special counsel muellers signature on it. That went through the same office that all charging documents have gone through since the special counsel has existed. Thats the Deputy AttorneyGenerals Office and his staffs office. Im told Matt Whitaker, as of this moment, has not involved himself yet in any of the machinations of the special counsel probe. That is remarkable. And thats brandnew reporting. And it may be the sort of thing that a lot of people have been wondering about, but i have not seen that reported anywhere before you just broke that news. And thats a really big deal. Part of my initial reaction to hearing this news today was, okay, is Robert Mueller somehow throttled compared to how he used to be able to conduct his investigation and pursue prosecutions related to this matter. Is he unable to bring new indictments because Matt Whitaker wont approve them . Is he unable to take other major steps . Is he acting the way that weve seen over the past few days with the sort of augmentation of this the situation that hes got with Paul Manafort . The friction now with manafort . The rescinding of his plea deal . Opening this new line within the Michael Cohen inquiry . We saw a draft indictment, not a real indictment, but a draft indictment from muellers office for jerome corsi. Are we seeing these developments from mueller because mueller is otherwise constrained . And without whitaker, hed be acting in some different manner and this is a new phase of the special counsels investigation . But if what youre saying is true and the Investigation Continues to be overseen by rosenstein, it just puts a very different cast on this. And i think it makes it it actually makes me feel like this must be a much more ominous moment for the white house. If mueller is proceeding without being throttled or stymied and proceeding at this kind of a pairx ro pace, rolling this out right now, everything is aiming right at the president personally and thats got to be very unsettling. Youve made me nervous. Let me pull mike schmidt into this. Is this consistent with what you and your colleagues are reporting about the management of the special counsel investigation . And its my understanding that a lot of these things have been in motion for months. Many, many months and weeks, even before Matt Whitaker assumed his new role. The way that it works is the Deputy Attorney general oversees, you know, all major investigations. Everything sort of goes through that office. The difference before under Jeff Sessions was that there was not someone above Rod Rosenstein because Jeff Sessions was recused. In this case, whit skaker is no recused, at least not yet but the same structure exists. Rosenstein is still the Deputy Attorney general and all investigations still pass through his office. The difference is that on major, major, major decisions theres another desk that a decision could go to and that would be to the acting attorney generals desk. I guess by this reporting it shows that that has not happened yet. But rosenstein, you know, regardless of anything, would still continue to run this investigation simply based on the normal structure of the Justice Department the way its supposed to work. Rachel, you hit on an important point. Once the president realizes how ominous sometimes he has a twoday delay. The way i sometimes sometimes a twoday delay to his reaction and i dont want to sort of project any false sense of security about the probe. I think its as much jeopardy and you see democrats and republicans on capitol hill trying to secure it. But can you just take us down the road of why its so ominous . Theres stuff in here about felix sader, about the ties to russia, stuff in here that weve long sort of hoped mueller would get his arms around. We now see has arms are wrapped tightly around a pretty sophisticated understanding of Trump Organizations, attempted business dealings in russia. The problem here for the president is the plot that was just revealed in the cohen documents. And what is revealed, if you step back from it, is that the president and his business were actively involved in negotiating probably the biggest business deal of trumps life in moscow, including direct negotiations with the kremlin during the president s campaign, and they were lying about it at the time and they have lied about it since and they have been engaged in an elaborate effort to cover it up. And the time they were secretly negotiating what would have probably been the biggest deal of his life with the kremlin, at that same time, the kremlin was intervening, illegally, in u. S. Politics to help trump win the election. There are some dates in the document, too, that im sure sort of rang out to you. We had to do a little bit of research to find them. But the filing in the court case lists dates around the time that negotiations over trump tower moscow ended and it may be worth noting which dates were included in the file today. From on or about june 9th to june 14th, 2016, individual two who we believe to be felix sader sent numerous messages to cohen about the travel, including forms for cohen to complete. However, on about june 14th, cohen met individual two in the lobby of the companys headquarters to inform him he wouldnt be traveling. Turns out june 9th and june 14th are dates all of your viewers know well. June 9th was the Infamous Trump tower meeting. And june 14th was the date we 50 learned the dnc was hacked by the russians. Do you think these are coincidences . No. Theres a reason those dates are in there because this, as matt was explaining a moment ago, these mueller and his team dont speak publicly but through their public facing documents. They are speaking through this document the way they have with Everything Else theyve filed in court. It also shows us that mueller has evidence, enough to bring a criminal charge related to it, that while russia was actively intervening in our election to hurt Hillary Clinton and help donald trump, trump was doing business with russia which meant specifically doing business with the kremlin and lying about it. And that is the story. I mean, that is we dont know what other business there might have been. We dont know what other business negotiations might have been involved in this. But heres one that mueller has apparently proved to the extent that hes been able to obtain a criminal conviction in conjunction with it. And so the whole no collusion, no collusion thing will have to be differently phrased from here on out. But this is about the president s behavior. And the president s links to russia. And the president s financial links to russia. And this is mueller showing thats what hes got. Rachel, if you just take june 9th when they were talking about a trip to russia, talking about working with Vladimir Putins name is in the document today, too. They are talking about working with the highest level of the russian government on the same day hat his son was in trump tower meeting with russians in a meeting pitched as our governments effort to help you. Sort of like cutting into a sevenlayer cake and seeing whats inside. Do we now have the conspiracy sort of lined up on the access of these specific dates . Yes, we do and also a sense of the literal criminal liability. Not just the bad associations or evidence of bad behavior but literal criminal liability of the president s immediate nuclear family, right . We have now seen for the first time somebody associated with this scandal charged for lying to congress. Weve had reporting from vanity fair and other reporting that donald trump jr. Is actively concerned about being prosecuted, specifically for having lied to congress about this incident. We know that this incident is now through the timing unveiled in todays documents materially related t sret business transaction the president was pursuing with the kremlin while publicly lying about it. And that was all at the same time that the kremlin was intervening actively to help him. So this is all of a piece. And if you dont believe the president has loyalty to anybody who works for him and hes willing to call anybody a rat no matter how much theyve helped him or worked with him in the past. I dont think anybody would say he believes that about his eldest son or his daughter ivanka or his son eric. I think that, to the extent that he and his immediate family members are now in danger of being nailed for felonies, i think that could be that should be understood as something that will unsettle the president , if not dramatically change the trajectory of how the white house reacts to this investigation. If they heard any of that, they may be sharpening their pardon pencils as we speak. Rachel, i am so grateful that you spent some time with us. Thank you for having me. Congratulations on your scoop. Thank you. Matt miller, can you jump in on all of the exposure that rachel just detailed for anyone and everyone that may have been in on these deals . And the way she sort of described it. We now have dates that line up to specific collaborations, if you will. Conspiracy may be the better word between the Trump Campaign, the trump family, the trump orbit and the russians. I go back and look at everything that we know that was happening in the summer of 2016. You first take the public events. The now president , the thencandidate donald trump running around the country praising donald trump. At the same time backing off our commitment to nato. Publicly asking the russians to hack his opponents emails. And now we know what was happening privately. We found out in the summer of 2016, his outside adviser roger stone, who he was talking to at the time, found out the date and content of the next wikileaks dumps. We found out just today the president was secretly negotiating a business deal with russia and not just with russia. Michael cohen was on the phone with a senior aide in the kremlin. He was directly talking discussing this deal with a russian government official. You put all this together and i think trump is not a complicated person in some way. Hes very simple. He was doing you saw him praising putin and sort of aligning the policy of the republican party, changing the plats platform in russias favor because he wanted two things. He wanted putin to help him win the election and he wanted to help with his business interest in case he didnt win the election. A financial windfall to fall back on. In terms of criminal charges the obvious conspiracy to defraud the united states. The big collusion charge we know thats still being looked at. And then potential lies to congress or potential lies to the special counsel for anyone whose story doesnt line up with what Michael Cohen said in court today. Frank figliuzzi, our viewers cant see your face but i can. Youre bursting. Jump in on any part of that. I want to follow up on something matt just said about the conversation cohen was having with a government official. I want your viewers to understand the gravity of this. If you look at the information filed today, youll see that hes talking to the assistant for the press secretary to Vladimir Putin, right . And hes doing this via email. And what does the assistant say . If you look at this through counterintelligence lens, its interesting. The assistant says lets not do this on email. Heres the number you need to call me on. What does that mean to us in counterintelligence . It means you knucklehead. Youre communicating via government email with me, and youve got to move to another line. Im giving you the number to call. And he calls that number. Thats significant in itself. Lets understand that theres a high probability that either the u. S. Intel services or our allied friends are still covering that number she gave him. She gave it to him probably on a line thats covered. So the u. S. Has that number. This goes toward what mueller has in his pocket in terms of classified signals intelligence that trump just doesnt know about yet. Mike schmidt, you have to leave us. Really quick. You report today on at least one of the questions the president answered in his written responses. Questions about what he knew about the trump tower moscow. There was some reporting yesterday that you and your colleagues did about and other news organizations about some other areas. Do we know everything the president answered in writing to mueller yet . No. We just know that its about russia, ties between the campaign. Thats it. We dont even know that it includes russia while he became president. It certainly doesnt include obstruction. So mueller is sitting there. He has some written responses. Apparently some that line up with what cohen has given him. And he doesnt have answers to the other major questions about the time that things have gone on since he became president. The major question here going forward, as it is with the president , is what will mueller do about that . Will mueller seek a subpoena . Will he go to the attorney general or the Deputy Attorney general to get that . And will he, you know, use it and then will the president fight him in court and how long would that take . Something like that would really delay things here. It would certainly delay them at least by months even if it went very quickly. That with the president is the next thing that were looking at. Mike schmidt, thank you for spending so much time with us on such a busy day. When we come back, todays charges from mueller represent the first criminal charges for lying to congress. Is anyone else in trouble for the very same thing . And have the committees already referred other cases to mueller . A member of one of the congressional committees, Michael Cohen, appeared before joins us next. Also the trump russia connection. Vladimir putin and donald trump both named in todays filing after years of trumps insistence he had no dealings with russia. chime [narrator] meet sharks newest robot vacuum. It powerfully cleans from floors to carpets, even pet hair, with ease, and now for cleaning surfaces above the floor, it comes with a built in shark handheld. One dock, two sharks. The shark ion robot cleaning system. From capital one. Nd i switched to the spark cash card i earn unlimited 2 cash back on everything i buy. And last year, i earned 36,000 in cash back. Which i used to offer Health Insurance to my employees. Whats in your wallet . I am a techie dad. N. I believe the best technology should feel effortless. Like magic. At comcast, its my job to develop, apps and tools that simplify your experience. My name is mike, im in Product Development at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Wed like to provide the transcripts of the witness interviews to the special counsel. There are several witnesses. We have concerns about potential perjury. Others have evidence that we think should be shared. That was soon to be chairman of the House Intel Committee on some of the evidence hed like to share with special counsel Robert Mueller. Is there testimony from other witnesses who have appeared before his committee that may not be entirely truth snful . Could these witnesses find themselves in the same spot at Michael Cohen . Senate investigators are doing just that. Looking through testimony for any misleading statements that might have been made with regard to the russia probe. Here to talk about this, Eric Swalwell who also sits on the House Intel Committee and judiciary, right . Thats right. Good afternoon. Did anybody lie to you . We believe buried in the basement of the capitol, the House Intelligence Committee are pages of lies from a number of witnesses, particularly in trump family, Trump Campaign and trump businesses that devin nunes has protected every time that adam schiff and my democratic colleagues have sought to turn them over to mueller. So has anyone other than don junior in the trump family testified before the House Committee . Yes. Dozens most folks involved with the campaign, the business and in the family have testified. Weve seen multiple contra dictions. And we tried to test their stories. Thats what you do in investigations. You want to corroborate or contradict by bringing in outside evidence. Cell phone records, bank records, travel logs. Any time we tried to do that to make sure were not just taking them at their word, we were blocked. We thought the best way to test their stories would be to send it to mueller and we were blocked from doing that as well. Now that you control the committee, have you referred criminal cases to mueller . Well, i believe mr. Schiff has stated i support one of the first things well do is make sure those transcripts get in the hands of bob mueller as soon as possible. Michael cohens plea today truly is just the first domino to fall in the dominos of witnesses who have lied to congress to protect the president. I heard differing analyses from former federal prosecutors today when i suggested that many of muellers documents are speaking documents. And that perhaps what he was trying to say with todays charging document against cohen was what you just said. Anyone who else lied to congress should lawyer up or pack up. Who do you think would be on the list of people today who might be nervous about that . Well, weve asked devin nunes to just make the transcripts public as they promised. He wont do that. I dont want to go name by name, but i agree with you. Its significant that bob mueller signed this plea as well. He doesnt sign all of them. But what were seeing, though, and for the last year and a half its been so maddening is the president has tried to use tampering, obstruction and lying as both a shield and a sword. As a shield because his witnesses are able to protect him from the Mueller Probe and congressional probes. And as a sword because lying, tampering and obstructing delays the mueller proceedings. The president uses those delays to suggest that the probe is unlawful and to try and undermine it. And those both that shield and sword, i think, are melting. Let me ask you, do you think that todays plea from cohen and what we see in muellers filing, do you think that strengthens the collusion case . Do you see this as mueller having more granular understanding of all the contacts between the highest levels of the russia government and the Trump Campaign or do you see this as another brick in the obstruction wall that perhaps people were lying because donald trump wanted them to . I believe they are obstructing the collusion. This is where donald trump will say theyre just trying to bring them up on lies. Well, only guilty people lie. And what they are trying to protect is that the president , his family, his businesses and his campaigns sought dirt on Hillary Clinton from the russians and sought to do a big deal in moscow at the time of the campaign. When they were confronted about it, they lied. Where i come from, thats collusion. Congressman, thank you so much for spending time with us. Grateful to have you on a day like today. Tim obrien, you have a great piece out. Today was a very bad day for the president. And it gets back to the stuff that mike was talking about where trump is calling Michael Cohen a liar trump is playing an interesting game of semantics. He said, yeah, we were discussing something in moscow but that ended by january of 16. Michael cohen said i lied to congress about that date. In fact, it continued to june of 16. Trump is specifically saying on the record now in front of reporters and cameras that Michael Cohen is lying about that latter period of time. I think trump is lying about that. And i think the reason he is, is that it demonstrates negotiations on this project were going on into the heart of the campaign. In fact, june 7th was the last day of the republican primaries in the 2016 campaign. Trump had it sewn up at that point. The russians were certainly aware of that. Thats june 7th. June 9th is when the meeting happens at trump tower. The dates are unbelievable. June 14th they pulled the plug on this. June 14th, the dnc hack. So the sequence would suggest the russians have gone from saying can we have a business relationship with donald trump to, it might be more profitable for us to have a political relationship with donald trump. The other thing that trump said today and has repeated time and again is, i dont have investments in russia. But that doesnt speak to whether or not russia has investments in him. The second thing is, theres an ample and easily documented Public Record of his interest in russia and doing deals in russia going back to at least 2005. The Trump Soho Hotel was financed with funds that came out of Eastern Europe in a partnership with felix sader. He was working with Michael Cohen to get the deal done. When we litigated we asked him about the fact that felix was bringing investors routinely into his office from russia in the mid2000s. Trump said of course we were meet with russian investors in the mid2000s. Who wouldnt have . Russia was very hot. Take me through and take our viewers through what Michael Cohen knows. How much damage can he do to donald trump . I remember sitting on this show when trump was really leaving him out to dry. You dont need even my insight to tell you when somebody is consulary, their righthand man for ten years, they know everything. For a president , its like the body guy. Or ceo, its your luntieuten. He was in the family. Its interesting to watch the arc of michael. Im going to use the analogy of netflix. Michael, you have many episodes also. Michael was the arch im going to take a bullet for you. So loyal. Then he was hung out to dry. He, obviously, was indicted. Michael now, and we will talk to this also because ive been speaking to michael today and the last few days. He feels like a difference man. He feels like he knows hes made mistakes but he feels this, in some ways, starts to really almost rebuild his own image. And history will look at him more as a john dean than the other guys. Very different from manafort, obviously. This is personal, beyond saving himself and saving his family. There is a big difference between all the other people that have turned or dont turn on trump. The personal connection here. Its when your husband or your wife or your best friend turns on you. You dedicated your life. Theres a catharticness. Is there a remorse for helping sell donald trump to the oh, i dont think thats dramatic enough. He feels he was he knows he wasnt working for an angel. But he genuinely ive spoken hours. Good guy, good guy. He was so immersed. His own persona was so immersed in who donald trump was and his own identity that it was just to watch this meta morph sis. His tone, his attitude. Hes still going to jail. Proeb probably, obviously. And he lied to congress. They gave him six months concurrent. So they gave him nothing. Thats how important what they gave him. And also to franks point. This is the tip of the iceberg. Ive said this all along. Donald trump could not get money once he was bankrupt in the mid90s other than deutsche bank. Once hes out of office, this is not going to stop. Every ambitious attorney is not going to stop until they take this empire apart. This is not just the beginning of the end of his presidency. But youll see his entire organization, his entire life, his entire fortune picked apart because nobody is bigger than the house. He tried to play the house. Tried to say our judicial system doesnt matter. Our Intelligence System doesnt matter. The media doesnt matter. The military doesnt matter. Nobody is thats one of the lessons of everything that happened globally today. No one knows more about Michael Cohens legal journey than you. No one has done the body of reporting that you have. Take us through today. You were in the courthouse. Its interesting. What donnie is saying is true about his demeanor. Ive been in the courtroom every time hes been in the courtroom. The first couple of times. Especially the last time he pleaded guilty to charges in august. He was very emotional. Almost in tears at points when he was admitting to what he did wrong. In august. In august. Today it felt like there was a little bit of i dont know if glee is the right word. Revenge . No. Liberation . Hes cleansed himself . Hes purging. Hes doing the right thing, period. Is there a revenge aspect to it . Sure. Is there an aspect to it where he knows this could possibly make his sentencing, which happens in less than two weeks from today, just across the street in a different courthouse, yes, that is part of it, too. But this is someone who i do think feels like he is rewriting the story that has been written about him for the last yearplus, two years. And i think theres just one point that i want to make. We hear today in the New York Times great reporting from Rudy Giuliani saying that the answers line up. I love that piece that i read to mike schmidt. Its like they have the same answers but hes a lying lying. So are they both lying or both telling the truth . Who knows. But this summer when Michael Cohen, it came to light Michael Cohen recorded the president in a conversation about paying karen mcdougal, a woman who had an alleged affair with the president. Giuliani came out ahead of that and said this is whats on the recording. When we heard the recording, when it was released, it was the exact opposite. So i dont want us to all start to buy into the story that Rudy Giuliani is saying today. I dont know what he said in those answers. Im sure well some day know. But Rudy Giuliani has done this once before where hes tried to say this is what we said or what happened and actually what happened was the opposite. Let me quickly get to you on that, Frank Figliuzzi. I heard the answers align and do they align because someone was told to align . I mean was there a script . And it seems like what cohen said in court today was that he had told these, at least these three lies he describes out of loyalty to trump and because it was part of the president s political goal. Do you hear something when you hear Rudy Giuliani talking about answers aligning . Thats part of that iceberg that we dont see yet. So does he mean he felt selfcompelled to do this or someone is orchestrating this and making sure the answers align . And we dont know that yet. But cohen, im sure, has told mueller whether or not this was all coming from him or whether this was an orchestrated effort. Weve got to stay tuned on that. We dont know. Whats your gut on that . I am thinking ive seen too many movies. Who called the code red. Its your sense when everybody involved with donald trump told lies about one thing russia. So heres what my gut is telling me based on what we know about cohen, his personality and relationship with trump, i do believe theyve had conversations about what to say, how to answer questions and i do believe that there was probably conspiracy and collusion between the two of them. Thats my gut. The other thing i want to point out here and thats a big deal. Former Deputy Director of the fbi. I trust your gut. Yeah, i do think that. I dont think hes gone off and done this by himself out of mere loyalty. Thats just my gut. And back to what donnie and others were saying about just cohen trying to do the right thing. Cleanse himself in this plea today. What do we know about trump and his opinion of someone who tries to do the right thing . Hes weak. Hes weak. Hes not like the others that you watch, mafrnafort, stone, corsi who arent breaking, arent doing the right thing. Thats what our president thinks. Our president is essentially a mob boss. My gut tells me, he was told to do it also. When we come back, jeremy bash joins us on the ties that bind donald trump and russia. Thats next. We have no dealings in russia. We have no projects in russia. We have nothing do with russia. Theyll say anything to be able to win this. This is time and time again, lie after lie. You know, he wont say, well, i say this. We hear experts. Heres whats happening with the russians. Its disgusting. Its so phony. Are there any ties between mr. Trump, you or your campaign and putin and his regime . There are not. Its absurd. And theres no basis to it. They are going to wish they had more house cats. Michael cohens admissions in court casting doubt on all of those bold denials from trump world. For the president , the problem is not just that his family may have lied but that Vladimir Putin would have known they lied and could have tried to use that against them. Its what the russians call compromat. Joining us is an expert on all things russia, jeremy bash. You and rachel both sort of get credit for everything that i think i understand about how the russians could have played the Trump Campaign. Take me through what you think todays admission from Michael Cohen means about the complicated intermingling. All the lies that are told. The lies were always about russia. They were very intertwined on some very key dates. Well, nicolle, its a tale two of trump towers. The project in moscow and the trump tower meeting in new york. And todays plea deal, todays statement of offense by Michael Cohen really ties the two trump towers together. What do i mean by that . June 2016, the Trump Organization was negotiating a 3 billion deal to build the tower in moscow. The person who brokered that deal between putin and trump was aris agalarov, the russian billionaire who paid trump 20 million to host the Miss Universe pageant in moscow. It was agalarav and his son who sent word in june 2016, hey, the russian government delegation wants to come to trump tower and discuss the terms of this deal. The terms of the deal was the russians were going to interfere in the election and in return magnitsky sanctions would be relieved if donald trump was elected. In order to believe that donald trump did not know about the new york trump tower discussions, youd have to believe that his entire apparatus was involved in this multifaceted complex deal with the putin government and that they did not tell their boss about it. I dont think anybody, certainly not bob mueller believes that for a second. Jeremy bash, you know Robert Mueller. What does his document say to you today . Hes always saying more than what he puts in black and white on paper. Do you think that mueller has gone farther in sort of tying the trump orbit to the conspiracy he already charged in july of the 13 russians than maybe we know that he has . Well, look. I think he clearly wants to send a shot across the bow to people who are minimizing the ties between trump and moscow. And, obviously, hes won convictions against mike flynn who minimized those ties. Hes now going after, again, Paul Manafort, who has minimized those ties. And now he has a plea deal from Michael Cohen for minimizing and lying about those from Michael Cohen for those ties. His point is we know the ties are much deeper, much more significant than people within the trump orbit were willing to say, and he is making clear that not only does he know about the lies but knows about the underlying substance of the ties and ultimately what the president himself knows. He is has been wrapped in ties to russia, yet he sort of goes out there with the audacity of his two sons and former campaign chairman, now convicted felon has told the lies so many years. I always wonder why. Because he has gotten away with it so long. But whats the motive. He is a performance artist. Why not perform for the venezuelans, why is it always russia . He performs for the north koreans, at times for xi. He performs for whoever is in front of him and he thrives on it. He loves to be the center of attention. He can be greedy, he has big appetites across the board. First and foremost, he loves attention. Thats why he feels comfortable lying. It is almost a pathology. The difference is he is mired in the kind of scrutiny few people end up in front of from the media and Law Enforcement. I dont think it is a coincidence. And the intelligence community. Foreign adversaries. I dont think it is a coincidence that deutsch offices were raided, on the day the president is going to argentina, and Michael Cohen pleads out. This is i think the Law EnforcementCommunity Coming to trumps front door, saying he undermined the rule of Law Enforcement long enough. Matt miller, we sort of ticked through the things he likes to refer to as deep state, but it is sort of the long arm of the law, fact based practices, intelligence gathering. Part of the iceberg underwater in the Mueller Probe. Do you think thats perhaps catching up with the president . I hope so. Someone thats hostile to basic trup, tries to delegitimize anyone with truth. Can he succeed in doing that or will that at some point catch up with him. I think we have seen it catches up at times. The final answer is far from known. Especially with any other individual, you would say yes, the rule of law will apply. If you committed a crime, youll be indicted and convicted. Thats different for the president of the united states. I think the question of what he calls a deep state, what the rest of us would call instruments of rule of law can prevail over this individual who has spent his entire career just completely departing the truth, now captured one political party, has them to serve his interests. Whether he can institutions, i dont think we know. It is like a guy in the amount of condominiums born in trump tower with russian cash under llcs, they have been funding him. And it is a simple business story. He got involved with the wrong people and they owe him. It is nothing more complicated than that. The same time, thats the story. This is why someone like Michael Cohen could be someone who potentially helps bring part of this down. This is not a man that would traditionally someone who would be bringing justice. This is a guy pleaded three months ago to 8 counts of federal crimes. Now he is in a courtroom potentially bringing down a part of the mueller investigation. Jeremy bash, take me inside what muellers team would have spent 70 hours asking Michael Cohen about. I think theyre following the money. Theyre following every bit of evidence that shows financial ties and renleverage that they e over donald trump. It goes to Financial Leverage and political leverage. Michael cohen knows every single detail, now so does bob mueller and the special counsel office. Once told me covering the dossier, ignore the sex, follow the money. Is that where we ended up . I think some of this was in the dossier, the ties and efforts to open up moscow as another place for real estate development. Was some of the raw intelligence first shared with the public in the dossier. It always comes down to money, nicole, and when you talk money and russia, you talk organized crime. Lets not forget when you say russian intelligence service, russian government, youre also saying in the same breath russian organized crime. Were going to see more of it coming out in the days ahead. The other question in my mind is how long can trump stand to take this beating without doing something ugly involving Matthew Whitaker or someone else. He is the guy no one wants to sit next to at the party. You saw this in france. I am serious. This is a blow to his ego. He does regrettable things when his ego is at stake. Were all in danger. One thing we havent talked about at length, but will be something we talk about in the future, Donald Trumps children. Talk about it, we have time. I dont know from my reporting yet what exactly Michael Cohen spoke about with whom. I do know from my reporting, i wrote a book on this, Michael Cohen was a great help for the book. He gave me framing about the kids. He understood them so well, he was able to give me framing for a book about the children. I know that he was in conversation with the children daily about anything related to the trump business. It was a small office. People think it is a big business. This is not a fortune 500 company. This is a mom and pop shop. They live in this building. They work there, they live in this building. Theres no sense in my mind, my understanding of Michael Cohen and of the children that he was not talking to one or more of them about everything. Every day. Jeremy bash. Thank you for joining us. Were going to sneak in a last break. Dont go anywhere. Up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. The powerful backing of american express. Dont do business without it. The meeting of the executive finance committee is now in session. And. Adjourned. Business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. The powerful backing of american express. Dont do business without it. My mom washes the dishes. Before she puts them in the dishwasher. So what does the dishwasher do . Cascade platinum does the work for you, prewashing and removing stuckon foods, the first time. Wow, thats clean cascade platinum. Youre smart,eat you already knew that. But its also great for finding the perfect used car. Youll see what a fair price is and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. Now youre even smarter. This is truecar. On a normal day, cant do this without our guests. On a day like today, we die for our guests. Thank you. That does it for my hour. Mtp daily starts now. Hi, chuck. Well keep it going. Quite the baton hand off we are dealing with. If it is thursday, whose lie is it anyway . Good evening. I am chuck todd in washington. Welcome to mtp daily. The president s long time lawyer and self proclaimed fixer, Michael Cohen, lied to congress about mr. Trumps ties to russia and todays developments make you wonde