Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline White House 20180513

Special assistant to the president. Im old enough to remember when that used to mean something. Being a commissioned officer means that your name is preceded by the words, the honorable. Now, this is important. Sadlers official title as a commissioned officer in the white house is the honorable kelly sadler. But the dishonor she has brought to the white house, to the president and the country with these comments is staggering. Sadler reportedly said of senator john mccain, who is waging a valiant battle against cancer, quote, it doesnt matter. Hes dying anyway. The context of those remarks, john mccains refusal to support trumps cia nominee gina haspel over her support for the enhanced interrogation program. Mccain, who was held as a prisoner of war and survived torture himself, was opposed to the program when it was revealed during the george w. Bush presidency. But his moral compass and principle is unrecognizable to the men and women who work for the current occupant of the white house. The disgraceful comments could have emanated from the tone set by the guy who sits atop the chain of command. Mccain is a frequent target of Donald Trumps. Here is then candidate donald trump. Hes a war hero because he was captured. I like people that werent captured, okay . John mccains daughter meghan speaking out today on her show the view. Kelly, heres a little news flash. And this may be intense for 11 00 on a friday morning but were all dying. Im dying. Youre dying, were all dying. And i want to say that since my dad has been diagnosed, almost a year, july 19th, i really feel like i understand the meaning of life and it is not how you die, it is how you live. Right. [ cheers and applause ] and whatever you want to say in this kind of environment, the thing that surprises me most is i was talking about this with you, joy, that i dont understand what kind of environment youre working in when that would be acceptable and then you can come to work the next day and still have a job. Thats all i have to say about it. Neither do we. Meghan there displaying a tremendous amount of grace, especially considering the attacks on her father are coming from multiple fronts. Heres a guest who appeared on Fox Business Network yesterday talking about torture. The fact is john mccain, it worked on john. Thats why they call him song bird john. To help us take stock of this extraordinary moment, lets go to Nbcs Kristen Welker at the white house, Steve Schmidt who is back with us today and with me at the table, john heilman, msnbc and nbc National News affairs analyst. Also the host and executive producer of showtimes the circus. Steve, let me start with you. Meghan mccain said something very wise and very important. Its not how you die, its how you live. And lets talk about john mccains life. He put the uniform of the country on when he was 17 years old and except for the 6 months when he was a congressional candidate, he has spent every hour of his adult life in service to this country. And he served his country through horrible torture and unbearable pain, and he kept faith with the country. John mccain is an imperfect man. He has many flaws. Hell be the first to tell you. But he has always loved america perfectly, and he has served america honorably. I was asked a couple days ago at something i was speaking at about who will take john mccains place. Of course, the answer to that question is nobody. 500 years from now, should america endure, there wont be another john mccain. Well never see anybody like this in High Public Office in American Life ever again. We should not fall out of our chairs that a vile person like kelly sadler works in this corrupt and vile administration. We see it every day. But when we look at why donald trump isnt going to be invited to john mccains funeral, its because of how they have lived their lives. John mccains life was honorable. It was about service to others. It was about reconciliation. We dont talk enough about this, but i was in vietnam a couple weeks ago. And if you go to vietnam, the vietnamese revere three american warriors. They revere john kerry. They revere john mccain, and they revere pete peterson, a fellow p. O. W. Of john mccains who was the first ambassador when diplomatic relations were restored. Those three men, veterans of that war, but john mccain, the only john mccain tortured repeatedly. He was an instrumental leader in the reconciliation of our countries so that this generation could be friends. His life has been about decency and honor compared to a president who is unworthy to say his name out loud, a man who is small and vile and mean and cruel and narcissistic, a man who is a coward, a man who dodged the draft, a man profoundly unworthy, unworthy enough that he cant even understand at a conceptual level the meaning of john mccains life. The virtues and the values that john mccain stands for in his long life of service to this country are unextinguishable. They light the sky like a star to guide us to the antidote for this vile, debased, corrupt administration. And so Meghan Mccain had it exactly right. Its about how you live your life. And kelly sadler and all the people in that white house that are tearing down our institutions, pitting american against american, theyre exactly the opposite of john mccain. Hes a guy that ive known well and i was honored to have a small role in the giant chapter that he wrote in American Life. There were times where he infuriated me, he enraged me, he inspired me. He made my made me laugh. He kicked me in the ass when i deserved it, and he put an arm around me when i needed it. I love him very much. And despite all his flaws, ill just say he is the greatest man ive ever known. And he is the type of man that i would aspire and i think any parent in this country would aspire for their son to be like. And i dont think theres a lot of parents out in this country today who are saying, i want my kid to grow up like donald trump. And one thing i know for sure, there will never be a person on television, not now and not for a thousand ian eons that says what i said about donald trump, that hes a great man, hes a small and vile man and thats the difference between the two men. Let me show our viewers how the white house dodged questions about john mccain today. Lets watch. Does she still have a job . Im not going to comment on an internal staff meeting. Does the white house not think that you need to condemn these remarks or comments again, im not going to validate a leak one way or the other out of an internal staff meeting. Why not just apologize to senator mccain . Again, im not going to get into a back and forth because, you know, people want to create issues of leaked staff does kelly sadler still work in this white house . Yes. Does he bear responsibility for the tone in this white house . The president as i mentioned just a moment ago supports all americans. If you look at what hes doing every single day, hes showing up to work. Hes working hard to make this country better. Whether its through building our economy, creating jobs, defeating isis, fixing our judiciary system, helping with the illegal immigration problems we have, the president is addressing a number of issues. That is what our focus is. That is what we are doing here every day and that is what the president has i think laid out very clearly what his interests are. Kristen welker, how do you resist the temptation to run up and wring her neck . Why cant she just say, if a staffer said that, were going to get to the bottom of it and shell be fired . I think a lot of people were surprised, nicolle, because there was an anticipation that she would have something to say. There have now been so many reports, including ours confirming the account, reporters including myself who have spoken to people who heard kelly sadler make these remarks, and so i think there was an anticipation that the white house would at least have comments similar to at least the statement that they put out overnight when they praised john mccain. Instead Sarah Sanders took a step back from that and said she wasnt going to comment on this situation at all, and so you saw the attempts there to sort of try to get at it from a much broader perspective. And then to try to nail down the facts of what actually happened, i asked her repeatedly if our sources are lying to us. She ignored that question outright. So, it is a very striking tactic that the white house is taking. They clearly are hoping this will help to turn the page, will help it to go away. But, nicolle, as youve been discussing, it does shine a light on the tone and the culture within this white house, within washington right now and within our politics more broadly, i think, nicolle. An account yesterday from two sources close to donald trump who talked to him after that clip we showed when he called john mccain a bad p. O. W. And he said he really shouldnt have said that. I didnt say that. Its on film. I didnt mean that. And these two sources close to donald trump described him, i said, is he a sociopath . They said its not that advanced. Its pathological. Its a pathological detachment to the things that come out of his mouth. But thats obviously filtered down to his staff. My sense of trump in that event is that he looks back on it with pride and not because of the actual substance of what he said, but because when there was the first time he said something that was way out over the line and a lot of the chorus of people in our business said he will pay a severe political price for this, it just shows you this man will never be the republican nominee, and he rose in the polls and so he looks back on that. He doesnt think about did he hurt john mccains feelings, did he transgress, did he Say Something that was inappropriate. He looks back and says it shows how strong i was, and it proved they were wrong. They all said that i cant say stuff like that. I, donald trump, can say whatever i want and the pundits and conventional wisdom peddlers are wrong. I rose when they said i would fall. Thats how he remembers the incident, not for the transgression because he is fundamentally without a moral core and so he doesnt think about it in that sense. He just thinks did my polls go up or down . Were the pundits right or wrong . Thats the way he thinks about it. It puts the white house in a terrible position because in a normal way they put themselves in a terrible position. Im saying the president put his white house in a terrible position. In this respect miss sadler put herself in this position. She did. Im not trying to let her off the hook. Im getting to a particular point. She did a grotesque, disgusting thing. The white house is in a position where the normal white house would ask her to leave, would fire her, right. Yesterday. Yesterday. But if you this is like mike flynns 17 days. What the hell is she still doing there . If youre in Donald Trumps white house and you fire that woman and she walks out and says, i dont understand why i got fired. Im basically doing what the boss did a year and a half ago. I dont understand how donald trump has the grounds to fire me when i was just following his example or something to that effect. Again, i still think she should be fired. And i still think what she said is disgusting just like i think what he said about john mccain in the first instance was disgusting. But this is the way his depradations against the Office Filter down for months and months into the future because it creates these situations where when someone else does something that is in the mold of donald trump, how can you ever punish that person when the person at the top has set the tone, not just set the tone, but set a precedent that you will be called on, if they fired her, people would be saying, wait a minute, why did you fire her . Didnt the president do something just as bad . Kristen welker, we covered the first ladys, i dont know, go good, be good, whatever her thing was. Be best. I mean, how does this comport with that . Its a great point, nicolle. In fact, we went back, we looked up some of the quotes from that day. The first lady calling for a high moral, ethical standard. What a joke. What are we all doing . I mean by the way, those were some of the questions that we did also want to ask Sarah Sanders today. You know, how does this comport with the first ladys message . And i do think it complicates her message. It makes it tougher for her to go out and make that argument when you do have these types of stories that are festering. What is the motivation for anyone in kristens role, i dont want to put kristen on the spot, but to sit in that room and take this i mean i dont know the difference any more between baghdad bob and Sarah Sanders. Nor do i. I dont know the difference. I think the motivation i dont want to try to i would never want to in any way disparage our colleagues who have to live through that horror show every day well, kristen had the most questions today. I mean, kristen made the toughest run at sarah on these questions. They do valiant work every day trying to get some semblance of truth or to at least expose the hypocrisy and lies, the baghdad bobness of it from the podium. But if youre asking me how they tolerate it, how they live with it they have more fortitude than i have. I could not go down there and do what Kristen Welker did today. I could not. I would slit my throat after two of those briefings if i had to sit in that room every day. Steve, let me let you back in. I heard you try to Say Something. Well, ill tell you the difference between Sarah Sanders and baghdad bob is that if baghdad bob didnt say what Saddam Hussein wanted him to say baghdad bob would have been shot. Sarah sanders stands up there a willful participant. Lying of her own volition. Baghdad bob was a hostage. Sarah sanders is an accomplice. As is the entirety of the political operation of the white house. Theyre all in it together. They serve in a debased administration thats dividing the country, hurting america, pitting americans against each other because obviously thats what they believe is the right thing to do for them to maintain the prerequisites and perks of their powerful positions. Thats what the difference is. Kristen welker, we applaud, i watched the whole briefing. We applaud your valiant efforts. We appreciate you spending time with us. Steve schmidt, thank you, the one and only Steve Schmidt. Thank you for spending time with us. When we come back, whats wrong with these people . Thats the question being asked by the trump white house. Well try to answer it. Also ahead, behind the curtain on the Michael Cohen expose. We go inside the new details about Michael Cohens pay to play scheme that has ensnared some of the Biggest Companies of america and caught the attention of muellers investigators. Donald trump embarrassed . Thats how his chief of staff describes it. His feelings about the Mueller Investigation into russian meddling in the 2016 election. Stay with us. Liberty mutual stood with me when this guy got a flat tire in the middle of the night. Hold on dad. Liberty did what . Yeah, Liberty Mutual 24hour roadside assistance helped him to fix his flat so he could get home safely. My dad says our insurance doesnt have that. Dont worry i know what a lug wrench is, dad. Is this a lug wrench . Maybe . You can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. Liberty stands with you™. Liberty mutual insurance. Vo theyre getting by starting with miraclegro potting mix and plant food. Together, guaranteed to produce three times the harvest. More to enjoy. To share. Three times the harvest. One powerful guarantee. Miraclegro. You wouldnt accept from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. Hes a war hero because he was captured. I like people that werent captured, okay . Were building a wall. Hes a mexican. The poor guy. You got to see this guy. I dont know what i said. I dont remember. Theyre bringing drugs. Theyre bringing crime. Theyre rapists. When youre a star, they let you do it. You can do whatever you want. Whatever you want. [ bleep ]. Do anything. That was the president of the United States. Its his example that civility has apparently slid so far that a white house special assistant feels comfortable saying openly in a meeting in front of her colleagues of senator john mccain, quote, it doesnt matter, hes dying anyway. Former Vice President joe biden responded. Quote, people wondered when decency would hit rock bottom with this administration. It happened yesterday. John mccain is a genuine hero, a man of valor. Whose sacrifices for his country are immeasurable. As he fights for his life, he deserves better, so much better. Given this white houses trail of disreexpect toward john and others, this staffer is not the exception to the rule. Shes the epitome of it. Our children learn from our example. The lingering question is whose example will it be . Im certain it will be johns. Joining john heilman and me at the table, Emma Mcmullan who recently ran for president as an independent. Rick stengel, former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, former managing editor, reverend al sharpton, Action Network and host of politics nation here on msnbc. I want to add one more element to the Dumpster Fire today, rick, and ask you to respond. Jennifer ruben writes in the Washington Post, what is wrong with these people . This is the political culture blessed and cheered on for evangelical leaders for nothing trump or his cronies do paying hush monday to a porn star or endorsing an alleged child molester is over the line. Theyre not enablers are bad people, but bad people sure do flourish. Im a great believer that any organization takes its cues from the head that of organization. I actually was thinking about this today. I worked for awhile for jack boble, the founder of vanguard. He hated cursing. He was revolted by cursing. I used to curse a lot. I stopped i never you take, you take your cues from the person who is the head of the organization. It is certainly true what she said was no worse than anything that trump has said. In fact, its less worse because he is at the head of the administration and people see that. So, he really is the cause of it all. Do you agree . I definitely agree. I think that when you look at the fact that donald trump himself said he likes people that dont get caught in terms of becoming a hostage referring to john mccain, so what would be the basis of their firing her . She could put in a complaint and subpoena the president on his own statements. Right. And john mccain, and im a democrat, a progressive and all, is not only a hero. He was a decent man. He and i disagree. Is. Is. He is still in the fight. He is a decent man. He is definitely a decent man that all of us regard and respect. But i certainly think that she would have the grounds of a lawsuit if she if they fired her and it came from this president who mocked him himself. And i also think that rick is right about it comes from the top. Ironically with all the ministers ive worked for, the only one that stopped on the cursing around was james brown who was the godfather of soul. You couldnt curse around him. He would not let you curse. I hope you guys warn me. He have the same effect on you that james brown was a little more stern. He had a way of disciplining you more than bogle did, but we got the point. Were going to have to get deep on that some day. Ill spend the rest of the show nicolle, this is not the circus. We have to get into the circus. Well get there, well get there. I want you to Say Something about john mccain. But i also want you to make a turn for us. I will show you this sound from the president s chief of staff john kelly. The vast majority of the people that move illegally into the United States are not bad people. Theyre not criminals, theyre not ms13, but theyre also not people that would easily assimilate into the United States. They are overwhelmingly rural people and the countries they come from, fourth, fifth, sixth grade education is the norm. Theyre coming here for a reason and i sympathize with the reason, but the laws are the laws. One, it is simply untrue. I think most immigrants that come here achieve College Graduation rates ahead of many natural born people that are born in this country. And, two, its not quite right, murderers, they dont send us their best. It is certainly again were talking about what emanates from the front. Those are not mainstream views about people who come to this country because they think its a shining city on the hill or to realize the american dream. I was shocked by those comments and if one of the president s aides hadnt called said john mccain was dying anyway, i think that would get be getting more attention. I think so. And i want to Say Something about mccain but before i do that let me respond to this. Baked into the comments about john kelly, which, look, we can debate immigration, thats fine. We can debate that policy. But baked into these comments are people being undereducated or not being sort of high class enough to warrant immigration to the United States i think is a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of human beings. The value of a human being does not come from how what their educational level is currently now. It comes from, in my view, it comes from the fact that they are created equally by their god. They are held equally under our law. Thats what we believe. But the Human Potential is tremendous, and we dont take people just based on their educational level. And, in fact, some people who come to america and are lowly in stature and education and wealth go on to do tremendous things and make tremendous contributions i believe they serve in the military at higher rates than people born here. Its just empirically ridiculous. They serve at higher rates in the military, they have higher graduation rates. Commit fewer crimes. Lower crime rates. They have lower rates of being involved in terrorist activity. On every metric they perform above average relative to native born white people in the country and native born of all stripes. John kelly constantly makes these kinds of comments. This is not the first time he said it. There is a deep strain. He is with trump on immigration. They are two peas in the pod. This is like the fifth or sixth time filled with bias. He popped out with these antiimmigrant comments on multiple occasions. This is consistent with him. And hes done other things including to an africanamerican congresswoman earlier that suggests he may also be with donald trump on race not just on immigration. Sorry, rick. By the way, kelly was much, much more sympathetic about immigrants than donald trump has ever been. He said theyre not bad people. Donald trump makes the presumption that theyre bad people. He says that they may not fit in in certain ways. He said im sympathetic to the reasons that theyre coming. That is far more than donald trump has ever done. Weve got to stop you. Youre going from the bottom so low its underground. I mean only donald trump could make john kellys views on immigration sound reasonable. Thats ridiculous. They do sound reasonable. Thats what im saying. My read on john kellys comments in that regard its window dressing. When i hear us talk about the metrics of immigrants, they go on ive used them, too. They found companies. Their children found companies. They contribute significantly. I think 42 of all fortune 500 companies in the u. S. Are formed by immigrants or their children. When i hear these metrics, i think, okay, good, this proves the point. But i also think it can obscure the deeper point, which is that the value of the human being is tremendous in its potential. And those metrics do reflect that. But i think it can sort of suggest that, look, if you dont come here and become a billionaire, then youre not quite worthy of being an american. Thats not the case. Let me clarify youre not suggesting that. No john kelly is saying they dont have the skills to succeed. Demonstratively thats false. Its false, right. Its false on the facts. But quickly when you look at the president s bias and john kelly now distorting facts, we expecting to get immigration policy out of this white house thats fair . I mean, thats whats frightening. We are being set in a nation that these people are going to guide us toward a fair immigration process is absurd. Even his hardline secretary of dhs is in hot water and threatened to resign. When we come back, the circus and the swamp. John heilmans exclusive behindthescenes access to a critical stage in the Michael Cohen saga, a saga thats looking swampier by the minute. Stay with us. But if thats not enough, we offer innovative investing tools to prepare you for the future. Looks like you hooked it. And if thats not enough, well help your kid prepare for the future. Dont hook it kid. 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I text in full sentences. I refer to every child as chief. This hat was free. What am i supposed to do, not wear it . Next thing you know, im telling strangers defense wins championships. Well, it does. Right . Why is the door open . Are we trying to air condition the whole neighborhood . At least i bundled home and auto on an internet website, progressive. Com. Progressive cant save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. I mean, why would i replace this . Its not broken. This is the first week. After a significant investigation we have discovered that mr. Trumps attorney mr. Cohen received approximately 500,000 from a Company Controlled by a Russian Oligarch with close ties to mr. Putin. These monies may have reimbursed the 130,000 payment. Thats a big deal. Okay, whats going to be the second tweet . The summary access to the link below. Mr. Trump and mr. Cohen have a lot of explaining to do. It was just sent. It was just sent. There it is. The summary, michael dean cohen. How many pages is this thing . Seven pages. What does it say . It says theyre in a lot of [ muted ] is what it says. Potentially Game Changing moment in the Michael Cohen saga. Michael avenatti revealing to the world that when he learned cohen got half a Million Dollars from a Russian Oligarch deposited in an account also used to pay off stormy daniels. Avenatti apparently has more. Heres what he tweeted a couple hours ago, quote, let this serve as formal notice there is significantly more evidence and facts to come relating to mr. Cohens dealings and mr. Trumps knowledge and involvement. You can come clean now or wait to be outed. Your choice. Weve only just begun. Heilman . Yeah, well, so we were with him i was with him on monday night as he was getting ready to launch this news bomb. All day tuesday we sat there, he sent that tweet out. We had all these screens up. Fascinating to watch how a tweet like that takes over social media and then migrates onto cable tv from the 5 00 to 6 00 hour it was on twitter. Then the top of 6 00 led every newscast across the board. So its kind of a great social media experiment to see. I think, you know, one of the things about avenatti, there have been a lot of serious questions that have been raised that are legitimate about on what basis he posted those the claims that he posted, what were his evidentiary claims. How do they relate to the stormy case . How do they relate to the stormy case . People are asking hard questions, which he has answers for. Whether you like them or not, but hes prepared for them. Hes a pugilist. But the reality is the thing he posted today, which i think is important to understand there are a lot of criticisms about the way he practices law and criticisms he doesnt color within the four corners or stay within the way that traditional lawyering is supposed to have had been done. All this television exposure, its too much, et cetera, et cetera. He now is in a position to crowd source a lot of the investigative work that hes doing. People all over the country who used to only be focused on bob mueller as the savior are now looking at Michael Avenatti. He gets stopped on the street. Ive seen him, go, go, go. Half the country hates him. The other half, people who are in position to leak documents, what cohen may have done, donald trump has done, they are pouring things across the transit to him. This publicity strategy is paying dividends that can come back to be damaging to various people. This is such an important point. And people that cover the investigations, the various fronts will say it is the cohen raid and muellers investigation into cohen which are two separate things, mueller has a body of information that hes interested in when it comes to cohen and his financial dealings and then there are the matters that have been referred to the southern district. These both scare the bejeezus out of the president much more than the collusion investigation being run by bob mueller. They do. You saw today, there is this thing unrelated in the schneiderman case, you have these people stepping forward and saying, oh, hey, coming out and saying, our clients or weve sent email to Michael Cohen. Some months ago we want to let you know we did that. Its scaring the bejeezus out of a lot of people and scared people tend to make mistakes. Again, this is what Michael Avenatti is counting on. Scared people make mistakes. And other people, its inspiring and those people give up documents, leads, tips. Its not an a unuseful tactic. Right. All right, so despite everything weve heard over the past weeks and months, it sounds like trump thinks his fight to drain the swamp is going great. This is from last night. [ chanting ] under my administration we are fighting against the lobbyists, the special interests and the corrupt washington politics. Nothing about the corrupt new york politics. But if he believes that, someone on his staff should give him a copy of the Washington Post today. Heres the latest. Three days after President Trump was sworn into office, the Telecom Giant at t turned to trumps personal attorney Michael Cohen for help on a wide portfolio of issues pending before the federal government including the companys proposed merger with time warner according to documents obtained by the Washington Post. The documents detail the full scope of cohens 600,000 deal with at t and how his contract specified that he would provide advice on the 85 billion merger which required the approval of the federal antitrust regulators. Rick, youre nodding. Well, im nodding because what donald trump has done is turned washington from a normal sort of corrupt, first world country to a third world kind of corrupt country where you employ your family. You enrich your family. You have your henchmen get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by corporations, not for access, but for insight into you. I mean thats what happens in third world countries. Thats not what happens in first world countries. So its not like hes hes turning the swamp into a cesspool. I guess youre not surprised. Youve been warning us for years. I want to ask you about something we talked about at the beginning. This pattern of trump projecting. Hes doing the opposite of draining the swamp. Hes doing what rick just described. Where does that come from . Two sources close to him described to me yesterday almost a pathology, projecting onto others what he knows at some level hes doing himself. I think that that is exactly right. I think he has an innate ability to project his kind of way that he sees the world that is always selfserving and he makes his own rules. And he convinces himself that everybody else is wrong and this is the correct way. Those laws dont apply. Those traditions dont apply. He in his own mind believes the presidency must form to him or adjust to him. And i think when youre dealing with that type of person and the danger of having people around you that dont challenge that but fall in line with that leads us to the kinds of nations that rick is talking about where it is ruled by dictators and tyrants. And thats where he really admires. And i think that weve got to resist at all levels including republicans, that we not allow him to continue to act and behave that way. 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People of the United States cannot escape world responsibility. That is former president george w. Bush, my old boss invoking the words of former Prime Minister Winston Churchill two World Leaders who governed during Tumultuous Times and often divisive times but conducted themselves in the normal conduct of of those in power. In an interview with npr chief of staff john kelly spoke about the russia investigations impact on the president. The president keeps calling the Russian Investigation a witchhunt. Do you think its a witchhunt against the president . From what i read in the newspaper, something that has gone on this long without any real meat on the bone suggests to me that there is nothing there relative to our president. Is there a cloud because of it hanging over this white house . Well, yeah. You know, there may not be a cloud, but certainly the president is somewhat embarrassed, frankly, when World Leaders come in, Bibi Netanyahu was here, hes under investigation himself, you walk in, the first couple minutes of every conversation might revolve around that kind of thing. Kelly later told reporters the word he was attempting to say was distracted, not embarrassed. But either way if youre innocent, why are you embarrassed or distracted by bob muellers investigation into russian meddling in our democracy. Joining us now is president ial historian jon meachem. His new appropriately timed book is out this week, the soul of america the battle for our better angels. I want to get you on all of this, jon meacham. Where are better angels when commissioned officers of the white house say of john mccain, hes dying anyway . Thomas jefferson the job of the president was to gain the confidence of the whole people. Woodrow wilson said a president can be as big a man as he can. Franklin roosevelt said the job is preeminently a place of moral leadership. Thats at our best. And the great thing about the american experiment is we have a number of forces on the field. We have the presidency, we have the congress, we have the courts, we have the press and we have all of us. We have the people. And we need to make sure that two or three of those forces are pointing in the right direction. Is that all weve got, meacham . I mean, are you giving up on congress . I just heard you say two. Which two . We got the press and the people, and were screwed with the other two . The courts arent doing a bad job, i dont think, honestly. Wait, wait, wait. Andrew johnson opposed the 14th and 15th amendments. We should not put when we have a president who is not commensurate with the responsibilities, as president bush said last night, quoting churchhill at harvard, the price of greatness is responsibility, right now we have a president who is not up to that job. But what are we supposed to do, foal our tents . No. What we do is talk about it, we protest, we resist. We try to insist on a better path forward. Let me bring you in, evan, on the sound we started off with before i put meacham on the spot about what we have left. John kelly saying the president is embarrassed by the investigation. Why would he be embarrassed or distracted by it . Why wouldnt he be enthusiastic about an investigation that is going to get to the bottom of what the russians did to impact our democracy . Well, because the president obviously to your point is clearly at legal and Political Risk due to his own actions which have inspired the investigation and caused the necessity of the investigation. I think kelly kellys comments sort of struck me as an effort to make the president appear as somehow a sympathetic victim to the press, which is and to mueller doing the investigation, the press covering it, and i think its ridiculous. The president took certain actions before the campaign during the campaign and post campaign that put him at risk. Its not only him, its not only about the president , its about his entire team, its about what a foreign adversary did to our country. There is a lot that needs to be unravelled here. It is about our national security. The stuff is really fundamental and it doesnt much matter whether it embarrasses the president. And, yes, its embarrassing, its embarrassing for the country. Is it a distraction . Yes, its a distraction for the country as well. I think over time were going through this necessary process, but were going to see just in time how costly this National Distraction has been. Heilman, let me put up a cover of der spiegel. I think it gets to what george w. Bush was speaking to. What do you think . I have my noncursors over here. I saved them for you. Thats literally the favorite my favorite symbol in all the world. Thats why i saved that for you. The one thing 47 minutes ive been waiting to show that to you you. The onefinger salute. I enjoy it. Its great, fabulous, nice piece of art on the cover. I want to go back to the john kelly thing for one second. One of the things that is interesting this week, if youve got to the end of last week and you saw what was going on in the president s team and legal world, it seemed that he was getting prepared to really go to war, even more than he has been before, ty cobb stepping out and rudy being elevated. Some of that stuff has continued this week but, interestingly, the president has not been on the war path against mueller. Since monday, and monday he called it the big o, obstruction. He had an event in indiana. He didnt talk about it surprisingly to a lot of people. This interview with john kelly, mike pence yesterday, there is now they are behaving more in this one week like a normal white house thats tried to do something nefarious which is to say rather than having an unhinged president ranting about it, youre starting to see the top people in the white house in normal Media Channels saying its time to start to wrap this up. Its now the time is the moment. They are starting, if you look at whats happening in the house, as they still continue to lay groundwork to impeach rod rosenstein, you look at the Vice President and the chief of staff both in quick succession this is not an accident. This is a coordinated effort, a coordinated messaging operation to start to make the move they are going to be making i think relatively soon to try to put pressure on a variety of fronts to try to close this thing. I talked to Rudy Giuliani 20 minutes yesterday. I said, how can you be at war with bob mueller, the man you worked hand in hand with after 9 11 . My problem isnt with bob, its with rod rosenstein. We have to sneak in a break. Dont go anywhere. Well be right back. No matter when you retire, ensure you still have income every month of your retirement, guaranteed. See how lincoln can help. You totanobodys hurt, new car. But there will still be pain. It comes when your Insurance Company says theyll only pay threequarters of what it takes to replace it. What are you supposed to do . Drive threequarters of a car . Now if you had Liberty Mutual new car replacement™, youd get your whole car back. I guess they dont want you driving around on three wheels. Smart. With Liberty Mutual new car replacement™, well replace the full value of your car. Liberty stands with you™. Liberty mutual insurance. The panel and jon meacham are still here. Meacham, after leaving me two of five players on the field, i want to give you a chance of restoring my faith. So in the wake of go ahead. No, wait, wait. No, no. What else do you have any other nominees . Who else in our public who . Let me nominate a few. So after the white house aide attacked john mccain, a beautiful statement out today from joe biden. A beautiful statement out the people. Hes one of the people. I guess theyre just people now. Theyre not politicians. But i want to ask you to talk nicolle, nicolle, theyre not just people. Theyre citizens. This is a stress test for citizenship. You know that. So i want you to take me through the reluctant citizens like george w. Bush last night, and you and i both know better than anybody how reluctantly he raises his head and criticizes any person who had the job he had. But he was out with a very clear message last night about the dangers of the isolationism that this president not just craves but is desperate to move our country toward. You had joe biden and kerry out with sharp rebukes, sharper than any republican tragically of the comments of a current and, as we know of this hour, still a staffer in Good Standing at this white house. And weve got members of the intelligence committee, who have never been tv stars now, you know, cable news stars now in john brennan and michael hayden. Talk about the reluctance of Public Servants to sort of poke their head up in the time of trump and try to be the good citizens you describe. But i think they are responding. It may be slow, but they also understand that a little goes a long way in a tsunami world. In a world where were living trump has created i think of it now as the joe mccarthization, the roy cohenization of our national politics. Basically the midtown manhattan New York Post just throw a punch instead of opening your hand culture has taken over the white house. So thats just what happened. So we can whine about itbiden, with president obama with the iran deal, who put out a thoughtful statement, as with george w. Bush, who has given two speeches that i think are quite good on this subject, they are making their statement. And we have to keep doing this. The story of American History is not the story of sudden leaps forward. Its not a story that is without difficulty and tragedy and missed steps. Thats in many ways our history. What were missing right now and the mccain disaster today when the white house aide said that about one of the greatest americans of our time or any time is that what weve become accustomed to as the symbol of the dignified part of government is simply not going to be there for a while. And i was reminds, as you probably were, of what Harry Hopkins said when fdr died. His great aide. He called in robert sherwood, a speechwriter, and said, damn it, weve got to get on without him now. We got too used to him. We depended on him. Now its all up to us. All of this is now up to us. Whether youre a former president , a former Vice President , or an ordinary voter, this is whats going on right now in the white house is not commensurate with the best of american standards. We have become the greatest nation on earth because weve listened to our better angels. Right now the white house is not helping, so we have to push on and do what we can without that as the beacon. I would argue more than not helping, theyre hurting. I appreciate you for spending some time with us. We have to sneak in our last break. Well be right back. And the safey for most parallel parallel parking job goes to. [ drum roll ]. Emily lapier from ames, iowa. This is emilys third nomination and first win. Um. So, just. Wow um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. And of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts no, i have to say it for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. Safe driving for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. To keep our community safe. Before you do any project big or small, pg e will come out and mark your gas and electric lines so you dont hit them when you dig. Call 811 before you dig, and make sure that you and your neighbors are safe. Were back. Apparently according to business insider, Rudy Giuliani, when asked about debating avenatti, features prominently in your program this weekend, he said, no, i wont. I dont get involved with pimps, which is interesting considering hes repping trump. I would say if you were to watch the special hourlong circus, you would find a lot of Michael Avenatti, some Rudy Giuliani, some comments in the vein of these comments and you will learn on the basis of the kinds of responses to Michael Avenatti has to Rudy Giuliani, theyre suggestive of how hes to respond to these rather my only comment is he dont know what kind of sordid details youre going to get when you go through the cohen files. Man, theres going to be some stuff. And there could be pimps. Thats my only point. Im not saying anything about the president of the United States. My thanks to our panel. That does it for our hour. Im nicolle wallace. Ill see you back here monday for deadline white house at 4 00 p. M. Its getting ugly. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. As the special counsels investigation reaches into new russian territory, trumps allies are making a new effort to destroy it. Were watching Rudy Giuliani and Vice President mike pence join the president now in calling for an end to the probe as we mark the first year of the investigation. And now white house chief of staff john kelly, general kelly, is also speaking out, suggesting in an interview with npr that a year is long enough to conclude theres nothing there. The president keeps calling the Russian Investigation a witch hunt. Do you think its a witch hunt against the president . From what i read in the newspaper, something that has gone on this long without any real meat on the bone, it suggests to me that there is nothing there relative to our president. Is there a cloud because of it hanging over this