Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240705

Making some history, perhaps major leaguing donald trump the first former president to be indicted with a federal crime. Nbc news is reporting the Federal Grand Jury that has been hearing in evidence the Justice Departments investigation of former President Trumps handling of classified documents is expected to meet again this coming week in washington. Thats according to multiple people familiar with the investigation. Prosecutors working for special counsel jack smith have been presenting the grand jury with evidence and Witness Testimony for months, but activity appeared to have slowed in recent weeks. That was based on observations at the courthouse and through sources. Another major sign that investigation could be close to wrapping up, trumps legal team was spotted at the Justice Department today. You can see them leaving shortly before noon. This was weeks after they requested a meeting with Merrick Garland to discuss this case. It is unclear who nay met with at doj, but the Wall Street Journal reports they were there, quote, to argue against any indictment of the former president over his handling of classified documents at his maralago resort. As the meeting was under way, our friend, cbs robert costa, reported this trumps lawyers are expected to raise concerns about how prosecutors have handled Attorney Client questions during the grand jury. But there is no sign the special counsel is going toive waver from how he and his team have handled the question. Questions of Attorney Client privilege are central to this case. Earlier this year, jack smith went to a judge and invoked what is known as the crime fraud exception, claiming that there was probable cause to believe that donald trump had used his lawyer to help commit a crime. Now, a judge bought it, sided with smith, and compelled trump attorney Evan Corcoran to testify and provide evidence without a shield of Attorney Client privilege preventing him from doing so. And thus providing details about his interactions with the expresident. Theres brandnew reporting today on what some of that evidence is that corcoran handed over the jack smith, notes that he took of his conversations with his client, The One And Only donald trump, from the New York Times turning on his Iphone One Day last year, the lawyer, Evan Corcoran, recorded his reflections about highprofile new job representing former president donald trump. In an investigation into his handling of classified documents. In complete sentences and a narrative tone that sound like it had been ripped from a novel, corcoran recounted in detail the documents investigation. The New York Times reporting a glimpse into what is in those audio notes explain why they could completely cripple trumps defense and any prosecution, quote, in an early scene in his account, corcoran describes Meeting Trump at maralago last spring to help him handle a subpoena that had just been issued by a Federal Grand Jury in washington. Seeking the return of all classified material in the possession of of his president ial office. After pleasantries, according to a description of the recorded notes, trump asked corcoran if he had to comply with the subpoena. Corcoran told him that he did. And this is all on tape. New developments in the final stages perhaps of the investigation into Donald Trumps handling of classified documents is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends, Politico National correspondent and nbc contributor Betsy Woodruff swan is back. Legal analyst Andrew Weissmann is back. Also joining us, former fbi counterintelligence agent pete struck. Anded a the table for the hour, democratic strategist and director of the Public Policy at hunters college. You issued a tantalizing and nudes worthy tweet in your own right with your credentials, with your relationships and your expertise. Im going to read it to our viewers. A Zillion Stories about trump case, but bottom line is that hes getting charged and it will be in d. C. And this week. Open issues are whether others may be charged and whether they will be in d. C. Or florida. Please explain. Sure. First, it is really typical to see what we are seeing in terms of Donald Trumps counsel going to the Department Of Justice. We saw the same thing looking at the manhattan d. A. s office that prosecutors in case like this, where theres no need to nab the defendant because theyre in the middle of committing a crime or a Violent Crime or theyre fleeing, they give Defense Counsel an opportunity to be heard and to make any and all legal, factual, discretionary arguments as to why there should not be charges. Here, especially if the reporting is about the Attorney Client privilege, thats just never going to stop anyone from finding charges are appropriate, because here a judge has approved what it is that happened here. I should point out the current Solicitor General of the United States work tond Mueller Investigation where the exact same thing was done in front of the exact same judge. I think thats going to be a loser and something theyre arguing in order to make a political point here. So we really are seeing what i always view as the harbinger of, you know, cases being brought, so the exact same thing happened in manhattan. You see Defense Lawyers making an argument and you see charges. The open issue is where the charges will be brought and who, if anyone, may be charged alongside donald trump, maybe conspirators. Those charges may be ones that can only be brought in a different jurisdiction because theres constitutional rules about where charges can be brought. I should say in spite of my tweet, it is conceivable that donald trump would be charged in florida and not d. C. I dont think that will be the case. But i do think the one thing im pretty confident of is that we are going to see charges with respect to the classified documents case and it seems by all accounts its going to be this week because i think that doj will feel that internal pressure to move this along. I have 378 followup questions, but ill start with one. What i think youre articulating is that the auspices of the meeting, to battle the peering of Attorney Client privilege, may be a trumpdriven errand because the matter has been adjudicated. Not something we saw, in secret, evidence has been provided that was Strong Enough that a judge said oh, yeah, oops, yes, crimes, yes, crimes, and thats why we get to see everything. Is that how i understand what youre articulaing . Yes. And its really important to remember, there is a model with this having been done with respect to Paul Manafort and rick gates in the special counsel investigation. Before he ruled in that case, manafort and gates and their counsel all had an opportunity to be heard. In other words, this is not ex parte. They all get an opportunity to argue why the government has been wrong. So this has been fully litigated. Theres no question that donald trump, as the person who holds the privilege, would have the opportunity to be heard, so this has all been vetted by a federal judge, a respected federal judge, and im confident it follows the which it should have, the exact same plan that was done and the reasoning that was done by the judge in the manafort case. This is not one where the doj is going to secondguess what jack smith did or what the judge did because its all been vetted. So that just seems like a real loser. You know, i think they may have made an argument based on venue. I know that sounds like a really weak tea in terms of, like, i get were going to get charged but can we please do it in florida and not in d. C. And i think florida would be a better venue for trump than d. C. He may have already made that argument as well. What does it mean that a grand jury in florida has heard evidence . Does that you know, us nonlawyers spitballing, which is always dicey, and wondered if perhaps some of the early reporting about how every Single Person at maralago, including, you know, maintenance staff and including people that work on the grounds has been interviewed that may be a convenience, but maybe thats a crazy stupid way of thinking about it. Could that grand jury there have been convened for Something Else . So, just so you know, you shouldnt feel too bad because a lot of lawyers do a lot of spitballing also and we can get it wrong as well. So, you know, its not unique to nonlawyers to be doing this sort of educated guessing. I think there are two possibilities with respect to what were hearing about also getting a Florida Grand Jury. One possibility is all of the charges against donald trump will be brought in florida. It seems by all accounts there would be venue for all of the charges. Just to be a little bit of a nerd, the constitution requires that a crime be charged where it occurred, but a lot of times crimes happen in many, many jurisdictions. For instance, if you have a conspiracy charge, that could happen in many, many different locations, and any one of those would satisfy the constitution for being brought in a location where the crime occurred. But theres no question i think that from everything weve heard that florida would be a place where all of the charges could be brought. In d. C. , its not clear in washington, d. C. , all of the charges could be brought but i think some could be brought there. The other possibility is that the reason were hearing about a Florida Grand Jury is that its not so much with respect to donald trump, but it may be with respect to, for instance, if an underling like mr. Noda, somebody who allegedly moved boxes for donald trump at maralago, if he made false statements to the government in florida, that is something that may be you leekly be charged in florida so that if the government is thinking im going to charge donald trump in d. C. , they may at the same time decide that they want to charge him to put more pressure on him and also because he should be held to account if he lied to the government, and that charge may be brought in florida. That might be a second reason for why were hearing that there may be Grand Jury Activity in that state. One more for you. It felt like jim comeys, you know, payout from the political grave, the tapes, as Michael Cohen before him, and done mcgahn with his copious notes and his note taker, who became the narrator of the mueller report, trump has another lawyer who didnt just take notes but who narrated a novellike version of his monthlong Legal Service for trump. Is that normal . No. So, you know, when i think about the lawyers and the caliber of lawyers who have represents president s of the United States, whether democrats or republicans, i dont think that is normal. And thats just thats not either the caliber of the lawyers that weve seen. Usually, these are the people who are the most revered and at the very top of their profession, think David Kendall or bower or people who are just at the very top of their legal game. And theres no reason, whether youre representing george bush or barack obama or joe biden to be taking copious notes because youre concerned that your client or that the president of the United States or the former president of the United States is going to be lying about what happened. But we know from starting as you mentioned with done mcgahn, that if you are representing donald trump, it is a Good Practice to take notes so that you have a memorialization of what you did do and what you didnt do to protect yourself from these kinds of claims. So, it is really abnormal, and these are lawyers who realize what they need to do in order to protect their bar license with respect to a very difficult client. Nbc news is reporting that trumps attorneys spotted at the Justice Department today. Ill read you what we have. James trusty, john hall ran and Lindsey Halligan met with officials that did not include Merrick Garland or the Deputy Attorney general. The team was first spotted by cbs news and was seen emerging from the building just before noon. What do we know about what happened there . We know that about a week ago one of the lawyers participated in this meeting, jim trusty, telegraphed something of an agenda for what he was hoping to talk about with Merrick Garland himself. Obviously, that conversation didnt happen, but he said in a tv interview that he hoped to sort of Level Accusations of prosecutorial misconduct, that he wants to claim prosecutors work for jack smiths team have engaged in problematic behavior that should shape dojs Charging Decision in this case. Of course certainly it seems like garland, lisa monaco and the other top brass at the Justice Department did not decide to engage with that overture that trusty made publicly. My sense in general is when Defense Attorneys are Making Overtures like this publicly, its because private outreach has not proven fruitful the way they would hope it to be. That said, of course this meeting also comes at the investigation by all available public evidence appears to be zooming towards its conclusion. We know therefore one of the things that hes said he wanted to talk about but of course theres no question that trumps lawyers would be trying to glean as much as information as possible from their doj interlock or t utors about a caj could be building against their client. Lets have that public bluster. Let me show that to everybody. The angle theyre pushing on the obstruction is to try to create some sort of daylight between joe bidens possession of documents and President Trumps. And its not going to work. I mean, they have literally put in everybody in the grand jury you can imagine. They dont respect any privilege that President Trump holds. And its desperately trying to find an Obstruction Angle that just isnt there. President trump from my understanding, declassified everything. The fbis withholding other information and lack of transparency is crazy. Its honestly it may be the first step to tyranny. They are very selective in terms of what they want out there, and we definitely want to know what theyre claiming they have as evidence. So their withholding of information is essentially controlling the flow of information, and that is the first step to tyranny. Theyve got their Talking Points down. I guess the problem with lindsey and jims arguments is that their client has already contradicted them in public. The angle on the Obstruction Case is being argued by donald trump, who said, quote, theyre mine, and end quote, we have the president ial act. Lind v sees argument seems to be the declassification by trump, saying i cant show you this, its classified. How do they contend with their own rear ends being out there contradicted by their own client in highprofile appearances . Theres been something of spaghetti noodles against the wall approach from trump compared to his lawyers when it comes to the explanation that he and his team have been trying to give as it pertains to these documents. At least on trumps part, any possible explanation is one hes willing to bring forward and a basket of contradictory explanations hes been making is something doj officials will decide is persuasive or a jury will decide is persuasive. The other thing of course here thats important is that, while trumps lawyers are arguing that there was a violation of an Attorney Client privilege as Andrew Weissmann pointed out, as you pointed out, the Attorney Client privilege matter was adjudicated. This was not something that doj did unilaterally or could do unilaterally. Trumps lawyer, and trump already got their day in court. It was under seal, but they had that day in court and a judge sided with doj, at least to a limited extent, as it came to this privilege question. The fact that trumps lawyers are speaking out publicly to raise their concerns about what doj did is not going to have any bearing on the legality at least as far as judge beryl howell ruled when it came to these matters covered by Attorney Client privilege, allegedly. Pete, let me read you more of the New York Times reporting. The issue of who moved the boxes into and out of the storage room and why has become one of the central parts of mr. Smiths investigation. Prosecutors have focused much of their attention on walt nauta, an aide to mr. Trump, and a Maintenance Worker who helped. Mr. Corcorans notes provide some details about mr. Nautas involvement in the search. They say he unlocked the storm room door for mr. Corcoran. They say he also brought mr. Corcoran some tape so that he could seal in a fold ter classified documents he found in preparation for giving them to prosecutors. What do you make of just the sort of tip of the iceberg that were learning about . Not just written notes but narrated by mr. Corcoran. Its important for a couple reasons. It points to a set of activities that are beyond one person, that it was not potentially just donald trump who engaged in this potentially illegal activity but he worked with others in the conduct of this illegal activity. Thats important because obstruction is a standalone criminal count, but its also important in the context of when the Department Of Justice is charged mishandling cases in the past. For 20 years i investigated dozens upon dozens of mishandling investigations, worked with prosecutors on taking several of those to trial and obtaining convictions. But every time doj has take an mishandling case to trial, its usually in the context of there are large amounts of Classified Information, some indication of disloyalty to the United States, some evidence of obstruction. In this case where you see those actions of nauta, and i agree with andrew im curious to see if there is within certainly this Florida Grand Jury potential conspiracy charges that are coming out of florida, Incorporating Nauta and whether or not he was working with donald trump to obstruct justice, but again, its important, one, because it informs whether or not doj should charge 793 or mishandling of Classified Information as they have in the past. I think the facts clearly support doing so given what doj has done for the past 60, 70plus years. Separately its important to that question of is someone, are others beyond donald trump facing criminal charges coming down the pike here in the next week or two. I trust andrews sources. I dont know if it will be this week or in the next two or three weeks ahead, but i do anticipate well see charges. Pete, when you you and andrew talk about conspiracy. Do you see outward facing signs that theyre looking at conspiracy in the obstruction prong, if we can talk about this as a twopronged probe like the Mueller Probe . Because i remember at the time a lot of reporting from betsy and outlets like the New York Times and the Washington Post about some of the decisions forced upon white house officials as trump sought to fire mueller and as trump people that there was always a little bit of a concern about being part of the conspiracy to obstruct that investigation. Or do you see the outlines of a potential conspiracy prosecution on the mishandling as well . Well, i think theyre tied together. Again, were all guessing a little bit based on what were seeing reported in the press, and were not inside jack smiths investigation, seeing the information that he has. But it seems clear from a lot of the reporting about what went on on the day surrounding the issuance of the subpoena by the Department Of Justice that there are things done to get in the way and hinder the inventory first that Evan Corcoran was doing and secondly to hide things from being potentially turned over to the Department Of Justice. The question is who said what to whom. Presumably, what we know about Evan Corcorans notes, it was not something he was encouraging the president. You played that snip where trump said do i have to follow the law, essentially, and corcoran said, yeah, boss, you do. The question becomes some indication he was waved off from searching other than the Base Room Storage room. Who waved him out . I dont think nauta would do it. But did he play a Functionary Role in bringing up the boxes and returning them. Did he see trump taking material out . Did Hef Conversation with Evan Corcoran where he told him dont worry about it, its only the basement stuff. Some question about that third person who helped, nauta moving boxes. Some question about whether he was trying to help out, had no idea what he was doing other than move these five boxes here to there. I think again, there are two separate things. Theres potentially a standalone Obstruction Charge and certainly obstruction, that obstructive actions, those play a role in trying to determine whether or not to bring a mishandling charge. So theyre intertwined in my opinion and i would not be surprised to see separate counts, to see a standalone likely in my opinion 793 count and then a separate conspiracy obstruction count. Theres so much more to ask all of you. Well sneak in a quick break first. Theres a Model Prosecution Memo for Trump Classified documents that needs translation from the experts. Thats next. Also, later in the broadcast, well get to gop hopeful nikki haley, who last night attempted to outmaga is growing field of competition in the republican president ial primary, trying to blame trans youth in sports as the reason teen girls are contemplating suicide. That really happened. Another lie from the right. And later, the twin investigations into the expresident s efforts to overturn the 2020 election. How both of those probes are today drilling down on just how many people knew that he really, really, really had lost the presidency and told him so. My a1c was up here; now, its down with rybelsus®. His a1c . Its down with rybelsus®. My doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. I got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. Rybelsus® isnt for people with type 1 diabetes. 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Chainsaw Revs tree crashes chainsaw continues daughter screams lets pretend for a second that you didnt let down your entire family. What would that reality look like . Well i guess i wouldve gotten us xfinity. And wed have a better view. Do you need mulch . What, we have a ton of mulch. vo this is sadie. Shes on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants a literal ton. And only pays for what she needs. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. Were back with betsy, pete, andrew and basel. Basel, as you can imagine, trump was active today on his social media platform. Yeah. Ill read you part of it. It was in all caps which i think at this point signals the degree of agitation. How can doj possibly charge me, who did nothing wrong . I dont know what he means there. When no other president s, oddly placed punctuation, were charged. Ill spare our viewers the rest of the rant. But he clearly got some readout of this meeting at doj that he didnt likeylike. And youve heard and youre talking about the bluster of his team, what is his team trying to do, push blame on to joe biden . Joe biden did the same thing a couple weeks ago on your set. I said be prepared to hear his name more often because i could see the Team Shifting blame there as well. I always go back to the reporting from last week, got to go to the glasses again, from that white house article that said the details suggested greater breadth and specificity to the instances of possible obstruction. What that shows me that is that literally, the breath of this incident, it makes it more and more unlikely that you can easily dismiss it from the Point Of View of the voter, for example. It makes it less likely that he can do the same, although hell try, it makes it less likely he can do the same because there are too many people involved, too much activity that went too far too long. And, you know, as we think about this, as i think about this, i wonder are we going to see a comeylike moment, a moment where the potential indictment being brought out in handcuffs like what we may have seen before, not in the new york case, but is there going to be a point where all of this really does impact how the voter sees donald trump, that is already sort of bought into him. Will this sully their view of him as we are approaching a debate in august and the primaries starting in february of next year. I dont think thats a static answer. I think most republicans and some pundits will say theres nothing he can do. We dont know that, because this has never happened before. Never happened. And there are still a lot of selffashioned National Security whatever they call themselves in the Republican Party who, if trump is charged with violating the espionage act, may think tim scott or nikki haley or ron desantis are just as authoritarian without the violation of the espionage act. Exactly. And the challenge, can i stay in long enough and raise enough to be able to we want it to go fast too. Can i add him on the debate stage in enough time to make a difference. Im fixated on your tweet. Tell me if there is something at a Process Level that is like the whistle only a dog hears, like is there something youve seen or this meeting with the meeting at doj that makes you confident. You choose your words pretty carefully on this show. So, for the bragg case, i had said to everyone, Pay Attention for and listen for any information that Defense Lawyers were being called in to have their opportunity to be heard, because a sign of the very last thing that will happen. If you are not opposing charges, there is no reason for Defense Counsel to come in and make a presentation. Youve internally decided not to go forward. It is conceivable that Defense Counsel says something, something new, something you havent understood, some fact that is going to change your view. I just think in this case, that is so unlikely for somebody as experienced as jack smith where also the maralago case, as you noted, and the facts are so overwhelming, that this is something that Defense Lawyers have an obligation to make these arguments, but its very unlikely to change anything. So, again, there would be no reason to have the meeting if there werent going to be potential charges. Its extremely unlikely that Defense Counsel is going to Say Something that is new or novel that will cause somebody to essentially overrule jack smith. Remember, the standard for the Department Of Justice to overrule jack smith is that essentially its so beyond the pale. And here i actually think when you look at what the facts are, it would actually be a violation of the rule of law for donald trump not to be charged. I mean, just last week, an air force officer was sentenced to three years in prison for doing far less than what donald trump appears to have done. So thats the reason why i think that if you believe in the rule of law and youre the Department Of Justice there are going to be charges here. Pete, there is something i think even more granular if you talk to National Security folks, especially on the intelligence side, that if you would like to preserve the prerogative to stay on offense and prosecuting classified documents cases and to protect State Secrets and some of those prosecutions are very, very difficult. You know better than me. You cant create a second standard. No. Thats absolutely right. I can tell you several instances where were investigating and prosecuting people and attorneys would come in and plead to doj, i want the petraeus deal. They looked at what the department did in other cases. You created a precedence. I want that deal for my client. Andrew is 100 right. The fact wegs know, and there may be a dozen plus things we have no idea about, but just simply the things that have been reported out clearly place this into the category of what doj has prosecuted in the past. No question about it. Its not close. So, you know, all this crap that trumps attorneys are throwing against the wall, the things that hes tweeting about, fly in the face of the precedent, and the responsible course of action is to bring charges. Regardless of when it comes, i would expect much like willis has announced the end of july, beginning of august, local Law Enforcement to be aware, i suspect if an indictment is coming at some point doj or the fbi will reach out to the secret service, will reach out to local Law Enforcement because simply the announcement of charges might bring, you know, try lent protests or any protesters and youd want to give Law Enforcement a heads up about that. I dont suspect doj will do that prior to a grand jury returning a true bill, but i think there is some chance that the very first things with e may here from, if and when there are charges, sort of leaks out from the sort of administrative Security Coordination that is going to go on in the context of an indictment. Theres such a remarkable body of evidence in public view now. Theres the months and months and months of correspondence between naura and trump. Then the extraordinary release of the application for courtapproved search of maralago. Then all that was released during whatever we call it, special master process of last fall. I know that feels like 11 years ago, but it was just last fall. Then theres the tapes. I mean, so much of what were learning has been put before the grand jury is what just persuaded another jury in a different case in a civil instance to say, oh, yeah, liable. And thats trump in his own voice, you know, ruffling papers, a chickfila menu or classified documents, i think none of us know the status. But he expressed clear knowledge of a Declassification Process and he articulated the document he was ruffling hadnt been declassified. He was signaling things he took that were classified and thing he is took that were not declassified. Hes also on tape over and over and over again, even when given the opportunity by his closest media allies, sean hannity, you would never take things out of secured storm, yeah i did, yeah i would, yeah. Theres been no denial of the criminal conduct under scrutiny. What i always think about as reporter, sort of the job of report sers to think about what we dont know. Theres this enormous body of reporting documents, known, unassailable facts about what happened in the months after trump left the white house as it involves these highly sensitive, highly important documents. And then the next question is what about all the information we dont yet know . We havent seen a transcript yet of the recording of that conversation that trump had where he refers to u. S. Military plans related to iran. We havent seen the language that he used specifically to talk about what he knew regarding the way the Declassification Process was supposed to work. And just as importantly, why that process mattered, why it wasnt just sort of a tickytacky box checking process, but how it related to keeping people in this country safe. Those are all pieces of information, all details that jack smith and his investigators have that we in the public dont have yet despite tons and tons of excellent reporting on what jack smith himself has gotten as well as what report verse learned independently of jack smith and his grand jury just hoovering up information. Thats the next big question how much of this known unknowns are we going to learn about in the coming weeks and months . And of course how much of that information in context could change the way we think about the criminal exposure trump as well as any of his allies could have. And whats beyond questioning is that were getting closer to having a lot more daylight in terms of that whole known, unknown space. I had this flashback to the Republican Convention in 16 and the chant led by indicted, admitted, Hardened Felon mike flynn, lock her up. Remember what that was about . Absolutely. Crazy. Thats where we are. The comey moment, you know, think about that letter and the impact it had on the election, is an indictment of donald trump going to have the same impact on not just the Republican Party but on the election. There are a lot of differences. But the question is digging into Andrews Point a little bit, its not politics if you charge him. Its Playing Politics if you dont. Correct. And if the voter feels that were at a point where all of this is in front of us and you still cannot hold this man accountable, im sure it will gin up his base, but my fear is that it will dampen any other voter that wants to you know, engage their civil right to participate in the process. Then he will have won. Again. Again. And whether he wins the election or not, he would still be winning. Thats my fear in all of this. Thank you all so much for starting us off on all of these threads. Were so grateful. Up next, republican around the country are racing to enact laws and spread misinformation targeting the lgbtq community, creating fear among millions of families. What can be done about it . E wans and only pays for what she needs. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. I was stuck. Unresolved Depression Symptoms were in my way. I needed more from my antidepressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall Depression Symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. 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So Caramel Swirl is always there for the taking. This is not just delivery. This is knowing even superheroes. Can use a sidekick. Walgreens. vo if youve had Thyroid Eye Disease for years and you cant get any shut eye because you cant shut your eyes, its not too late for another treatment option. To learn more visit treatted. Com. Thats treatted. Com. At a town hall last night when she was given an opportunity to talk to voters about issues front and center, republican president ial candidate nikki haley opted to attack transgender women in sports. She was asked to define the term woke. She falsely and rather bizarrely blames transgender women in sports for the increased rates of Suicidal Thoughts Among teen girls. The idea that we have biological plays playing in girls sports, it is the womens issue of our time. My daughter ran track in high school. I dont even know how i would have that conversation with her. How are we supposed to get our girls used to the fact that biological boys are in their locker rooms, and we wonder why a third of our Teenage Girls seriously contemplated suicide last year . We should be growing strong girls, confident girls. Fact check here. Transwomen playing sports is not the cdc or any Pediatric Association that covers Teenage Girls and studies their suicidal thoughts has ascribed that rise. The cdc has found no evidence of that. Two things dont have anything to do with one another, at least as far as the science and the data shows. And for people that nikki haley is blaming for societys problem, the actual number shes talking about is minuscule. This is reporting from newsweek. Privacy laws make it tough to identify the exact number of Transgender Athletes competing in Public School sports, but researcher and medical physicist Joanna Harper estimates the number cannot exceed 100 nationwide. 100 people. 100 transgenders. And while the threat of transgender people is a real thing on the right, it is a real thing, they are really making it something that matters to all republicans. Its a narrative that is being ginned up and turbocharged by republicans. In florida, a new law signed by republican governor and president ial candidate ron desantis that ban gender for minors is cutting off access to that care for adults as well. Joining our conversation and coverage is kelly robinson, president of the human rights campaign. Basel is still with us. Share anything that i missed. Look, if we want to talk about womens sports, lets talk about the real issues, right, like pay equity. If we want to talk about the Mental Health crisis, then lets talk about the real issues like 40 of trans teens considering suicide, 1 in 5 attempting it. What that does is uses troeb to attack the community. Shes leading an attack for political purposes only. This is not what the majority of Americans Care about or what they want. They are creating a false crisis when there are real crises to address. Kelly, do you think that when people react or clap, i imagine for all republicans heading down this path, they have to think it works or see evidence of that, do you think any of them know were talking about maybe 100 studentathletes . Were only talking about a small group of folks, and at the end of the day, were talking about kids, children, and what were seeing play out is this playbook of using political attacks to target children. I also want to really draw the connections here because the attack that nikki haley said out loud in that town hall is directly connected to the hundreds of antilgbtqplus bills enacted across the country, corporations like target, the place wes shop and live, and is directly connected to the increase of physical threats and violence against a community. Right now 1 in 5 of every hate crime is perpetrated on the basis of antilgbtqplus bias. They are sowing fear and hate against our people when we need aspirations and hope to address whats at hand. Basel, it is a Kitchen Table issue and i think its specific to teen girls. Theres a lot of research of what they see on their phones, specifically algorithms that put them in a Constant Loop of Eating Disorder Contact or what not. 0 minute has reporting on this. If youre going to be on a platform, talk about not just teen suicide, which is a horrific thing we should talk about and come to the table, to lie about what is the greatest correlation is a real disservice. We should be talking about online content. Absolutely right. I work with a lot of students who are very, very concerned about that. Theyre the generation that you would expect to engage more on social media, but theyre starting to pull back because of those same concerns. I want to focus on another point that was made about danger. Because one of the things that i sense from a lot of young people in the Lgbt Community is isolation. That isolation has manifested in so many ways that there are students ive worked with that came out to their parents and their parents dont attend their college graduation. Then step in and essentially be their Support System in addition to what they should be getting from Family Members or friends. So and the attacks dont make it easier on the family either. Thats exactly right. Those attacks dont make it easier, that isolation becomes deeper, and we should be in the business of supporting these young people and not pushing them into harms way. And just very quickly, 1992 here in new york city after some attacks against african americans, in a time when the highest the death rate among men from 25 to 44 was mainly caused by aids, and at that point we were talking about more inclusive curriculum. Rainbow curriculum, if you will. And look whats happened since then. Weve gotten to the pharmaceutical community, health care community, theres been so much protest to try to make change. So anyone now looking to thwart all of that progress is only looking to sow anger, isolation and fear and danger. It just feels like weve come back to this, were moving in the wrong direction. We have to sneak in a quick break. No ones going anywhere. We will all be right back. Anyw. We will all be right back. Eds. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. When moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis keeps flaring, put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. When uc got unpredictable, i got rapid Symptom Relief with rinvoq. And left bathroom urgency behind. Check. When uc got in my way, i got lasting, steroidfree remission with rinvoq. Check. And when my gastro saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. Check. Rapid Symptom Relief. 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So i wonder what you think can be done on the fact piece of this. That theyre obsessing, that theyre endangering, that theyre pumping up and Turbo Charging with vitriol a political fight with the facts getting so far left behind from the political rhetoric. How do we sort of shrink that gap . I mean, its sad really. We have to name it for what it is. Mf these laws, these trans sports bans when theyve gone into place, are impacting less than a handful of students, of young people, of children in that state. Is that really where our politicians should be focusing their energies when there are real crises at hand like gun violence impacting kids every day, like real Mental Health crises are impacting our kids . We have to name this for what it is. We also have to be clear that the emergent generation, generation z, they get it. They get it more than we do. One in five of gen z identifies as a member of the lgbtq plus community. This is a trend that is not going to stop. We have to create welcoming schools and welcoming environments for these kids to thrive. Thats all of our responsibilities. Right. And that is i think people will look at us when the history is written and say what did you do . What did you do to protect the trans kid . And not just the kid but to basils point to support the family trying to support their kids. A really important conversation. Kelley and basil, thank you so much. We have been juggling some Breaking News in the break, and there is some of it, of the jack smith variety, straight ahead. Dont go anywhere. We will all be right back. T go. We will all be right back. Xactls and only pays for what she needs. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. The chase Ink Business Premier Card is made for people like sam who make. . Everyday products. Designed smarter. 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Kenny its about working with the parents. David the educators, the parents, the students. Rafael we all come together to better meet the needs of our kids and our families. Jackie its been really powerful. Terry im excited to go to work every day. Narrator californias Community Schools reimagining public education. Hi again, everyone. Its now 5 00 in new york. We come on the air with some Breaking News. That meeting we told you about last hour between Donald Trumps Defense Attorneys and doj officials, well, guess who was in there. Special counsel jack smith was among those in the meeting. This comes as nbc news is reporting that the grand jury investigating the former president s handling of classified documents is expected to meet again this week. That tweet in conversation with our friend Andrew Weissman in a whole new light. Reminder, he told us, bottom line, trump is getting charged and it will be in d. C. And this week. Its where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former lead investigator for the January 6th Select Committee tim hagy is back at the table. Also joining us former acting Solicitor General and msnbc legal analyst neal katyal is making his way to a camera. I think he will be here in a second. The editor of the bulwark and msnbc contributor Charlie Sykes is here. And Washington Post Congressional Investigations Correspondent Jackie Alemany joins us. I hate to come on with the big bluster of Breaking News and say jack smith was Breaking News what does that mean to a prosecutor because im sure your answer is of course he was there. Exactly. Hes leading the investigation. He naturally would be there for a meeting with lawyers for the principal target of that investigation. I dont see his personal presence as significant. The fact, though, that hes meeting with counsel to the former president suggests theyre right at the very end, as andrews tweet suggests. That there may have been a prosecutive decision. But theyre just giving the Trump Lawyers one opportunity to try to raise issues that might change that decision. And one of the issues that the Trump Legal Team has raised in Television Interviews is this complaint about attorneyclient privilege, that as Betsy Woodruff swann and others have explained that has been adjudicated. It didnt happen in public but evidence has already been presented secretly to a judge who said oh yeah, that is adequate evidence that a crime was committed. Exactly right. I mean, the judge chief judge for the d. C. District court found that there was a crime fraud exception, which allowed the grand jury to hear evidence from Evan Corcoran, a lawyer for the former president , that trumps, so to speak, the attorneyclient privilege. And thats very important evidence because again, as we talked about this before, the whole ball game for jack smiths is the president s intent. Did he know that this information was classified . Did he possess it nonetheless . That getting inside his head requires information from people with whom he spoke including his lawyers. I mean, you guys got as close as anyone has to trumps attorneys in the white house. And even without saying much of anything he said it all, right . Pat cipollone in that interview i think with congresswoman liz cheney very demonstrative, yes. How impactful is it for a prosecutor to be completely behind that privilege . Its really unusual. It almost never happens. Because its really unusual that lawyers facilitate criminal conduct by their clients. I think Pat Cipollone was trying to prevent criminal conduct. Pat cipollone is also an institutionalist who respects the office and was trying his best to protect the integrity of the White House Counsels Office and not provide confidential communications. The grand jury and the special counsel have means that we did not have to push through that, to overcome that, to adjudicate those objections to privilege claims quickly, which jack smith and his team have done successfully. Thats why theyre getting stuff that we didnt get. When you see what is Public Facing and it now includes this New York Times describes it as a narrative that sounds like it was a draft of a novel. This is Evan Corcoran describing his month a month of representing donald trump in the documents investigation. And if im right about when he came in, it was not when they were haggling with nara. It was once the fbi was involved and there was a subpoena. Yeah. What do you think they have in that trove of audio notes . It sounds to me like they have pretty strong evidence of intent. Right . They have evidence from President Trumps lawyer and now evidently from a recording where the president is acknowledging that he possesses information, documents that were not turned over to nara that are classified. And even intends to show them to people. Might intend to actually use them. Motive is not an element of a crime that a prosecutor has to prove but it certainly helps juries understand motivation and intent. Its always been curious here, like why would the former president want to hold on to this stuff . Whats the motive . Hes trying to monetize it . Is he trying to show off . Is it just hubris . Conversations that he had with his lawyer and particularly this recording may provide some window into the president s motivation for holding onto this stuff. Youre about as close as we can get to someone who thinks like jack smith. Im just asking for your Expert Analysis and for what you see that we dont see. But when you see that jack smith has that tape youre talking about where hes rustling papers and then says on the tape to an autobiographer of mark meadows, cant show you, its classified, it seems that no more can trump say oh, everything i took was declassified because i thought it and i took it. Thats gone, right . Yes. Exactly right, nicolle. Prosecutors often are not just trying to affirmatively satisfy the elements of their case but theyre trying to simultaneously rebut possible defenses. So some defense that i declassified all this stuff seems pretty directly rebutted by something on tape where he says himself i cant show you that, its classified. Right . Again, hes consciously playing offense and defense. Wants to move the ball down the field by showing evidence that establishes the offense but he also wants to try to anticipate defenses, advice of counsel, i can declassify anything, by providing evidence that would anticipatorily rebut that defense. You also watched him as you investigated him and his contact on january 6th move the goalposts. Right . I mean, it was, you know, when the insurrection was bad all around i didnt do it. I told them to go home. As it became his calling card politically, as his position is now to pardon the insurrectionists, his story changed. Right . And he owns parts of it. It seems that the documents case and frankly the russia investigation was the same thing. In the beginning it was i dont know vladimir putin. By the end it was it wasnt illegal. How do you see his shifting public pronouncements bolstering jack smiths case . I think that is probably partly why they gave him an opportunity through counsel to come in and provide finally to the extent it exists a coherent articulated possible defense. He has made contrary public statements. I can declassify anything. I didnt have anything. Hard to tell from his social media posts or his public statements or his speeches what the facts are from him. So theyre giving an opportunity to jim trusty and whomever else is representing the former president to articulate once and for all what is your version of what occurred . We want to hear you before a final prosecutorial decision is made. Thats pretty common that you give a defendant an opportunity in a whitecollar case, an opportunity to make that presentation before an Indictment Decision is made. I am told that neal katyal has made his way to a camera. Neal, we want your take on everything that has transpired today. News of this audio memo, a month of Audio Diaries from Donald Trumps criminal defense attorney, as well as the news that just broke in the last ten minutes that jack smith was in the meeting today with trumps Defense Counsel. Yeah. So im sorry, i had some connections difficulty. So i havent heard what youre always worth the wait. You can start at the beginning. We want to hear your fresh take on all of it. Im holding my iphone and trying to talk to you, nicolle. I think in the pandemic i did seth myers that way. Just to hear you and see you is all we need. Well, youre a hundred seth meyers. Look, i think that what this meeting indicates to me is we are at the end of the maralago piece of the jack smith investigation. This is the kind of thing Defense Attorneys will try and do as a lastditch effort, to try and meet with the prosecutor, try and talk them out of it, try and say oh, you abused my clients rights and so on. But i think, you know, those kinds of claims, weve heard them before, are pretty much going to fall on deaf ears. The idea that the attorneyclient privilege was violated here is exactly what was litigated before the District Judge and then going up to our nationtion second highest court, the d. C. Circuit, which rebuked that kind of idea. So it pierced attorneyclient privilege. For those really highly respected judges to have done that in the maralago investigation tells me that they believed a serious crime had been committed and that the attorney was part of that situation. And so they needed to get that information to the prosecutors of what that attorney knew and what that attorney did and what that attorney saw. That is a rare, rare thing. You almost never see it in the law. But it occurs only in really grave circumstances. Here all of those judges said this meets that criteria. So what i think we are looking at is really truly, nicolle, a situation where all signs are indicating donald trump will be indicted by jack smith for the mishandling of Classified Information at maralago as well as the obstruction of evidence the obstruction of the investigation afterwards, hiding the boxes, dress rehearsals, all that kind of stuff. You know, thats such a declarative statement, especially coming from you, and it syncs up with what tim and andrew have said today. And again, short of jack smith sitting down at this table, you are the most trusted and expert people. So im just going to push a little more and try to understand again whats obvious to you that may not be obvious to me or some of our viewers. When you see that the Wall Street Journal is reporting that some evidence has been before a grand jury convened in florida, what does that indicate to you . Well, i think that theres that makes sense, that you have parts of the investigation that are florida centered around maralago. The retention of the documents, the you know, the initial arrival of the documents. What trump did with those documents when he heard the federal authorities were looking for them. Thats all a floridacentric thing. But you also have a d. C. Grand jury looking into this as well. And that of course i think is underscored by Donald Trumps own admission at the cnn town hall last week which was that he made the decision to declassify these documents in washington, d. C. And why is that relevant, nicolle . Its relevant because prosecutors care a lot about venue. Where are you going to indict . If youre going to indict. And here there are two possible places. Florida or d. C. With trump saying that he made the decision in d. C. , that makes the case for d. C. Look stronger. Of course those d. C. Judges have already had aspects of this case including the attorneyclient privilege aspects of this case already. So theyre familiar with it. You know, look, i dont think its impossible to say donald trump isnt going to be indicted. But i think all the signs are indicating that he will be. And that squares with i think the experience that those of us who served in the Justice Department in National Security positions have had, which is you cant take this Classified Information and this National Defense information, mishandle it, lie about it, and then expect not to be indicted. Its one thing if youve made an innocent mistake about a document or Something Like that. Its an entirely different thing when as it looks theres been an orchestrated campaign to keep those materials away from federal investigators and the National Archives. Thats what makes it so grave. Yeah. I dont consume a ton of rightwing Media Content for my own Mental Health but i consume enough to know that the most dangerous place to be is between bill barr and a camera when hes asked about trumps criminal exposure on the maralago probe. It almost isnt even a purely partisan analysis, that his grave legal exposure is squarely on the two prongs of the maralago case, both the mishandling of classified documents and the new publicfacing evidence about his knowledge that things he had werent declassified, his sort of intent to share it by rustling the papers around, as well as the obstructive acts have all been quite public. We have heard him say in interview after interview theyre mine. Theres been investigative reporting about him wanting to swap this for that, all of it classified. I mean, what do you how do you assess as we sit here today the strength of both prongs, the sort of underlying crime, if you will, of the mishandling of the classified documents, perhaps violations of the espionage act, as well as the incredibly brazen obstruction of that investigation . Yeah. So even before donald trump opened his mouth really about this investigation, even before we knew about the dress rehearsals of moving the boxes of evidence and even before we knew about the iran tape that came out last week about the Classified Information and the ways in which it maintained classification after trump brought it out of the oval office, even before all of that bill barr was saying, as you point out, nicolle, this is a crime, this is a really serious threat to donald trump. And every piece of additional evidence i think makes that case stronger and stronger, which is why again, National Security professionals, i dont care if youre republican or democrat or some other party. People whove handled this, they know this is not the way that this would be an indictment if it were anyone else but donald trump. And thats why i think jack smith, whos such a by the boong book prosecutor, is going to see it that way. I think the mishandling of the information in the first place, maybe trumps going to have a defense like i wasnt involved, i was out of the loop, someone else packed the stuff up and so on. But its not the finding of the documents itself that to me is the most significant thing. Its that trumps lying about it and obstruction of the investigation both before, during, and after it. Thats where i think the prosecutors are going to have such a difficulty. It would be one thing if you made an innocent mistake, you owned up to the mistake, you got the materials returned and so on. You know, for heavens sakes this is some of our most serious National Security information. People, you know, very well may have died or put their lives on the line to get this, both americans and our allies around the world. Who generate this as part of five eyes and other intelligence programs. And we cant just kind of just excuse that. Particularly in some ways because its so visible. It would be one thing if nobody knew about it. But what kind of signal are we sending to our allies, to our spies around the world if we dont prosecute this . Thats how i think jack smith will look at it. Yeah, to neals point, it always struck me as completely implausible that for the number of classified documents that they found that he had with him and the excuse being i declassified them all when i took them, that there was clearly that was never true. And no one ever thought it was true because there would have been an outcry from americas allies, from the Intelligence Agencies themselves. Just based on the volume of stuff he had. Look, theres a process thats in place to declassify information. Right. Even with the power you still have to go through a process. Exactly right. And people weigh in as to how damaging it might be to National Security. Theres the substance of the information. Theres also the sources and methods by which the information was obtained that puts people in danger if something goes forth and a foreign adversary says oh, that must have come from mr. X who now they think might be an asset or a spy. Its really fraught to do this. The former president has said that he can declassify things just by thinking about it. Again, theres just no authority for that assertion. He cant think about something and declassify it. It goes through and it has to go through as neal points out a process to evaluate the danger of declassification. None of that happened here. Jackie ail many, i am told you have broken some new news under the Headline Lawyers ask doj not to charge donald trump. Tell us what youre reporting. Yeah, nicolle. I just want to say quickly, though, on the heels of what tim just said another bit of new reporting that we had this morning was actually its not just that tape that makes up the body of evidence that jack smith has collected in terms of the Classification Practices but the Department Of Justice in really what is the latest sign that theyre nearing the end of wrapping up their investigation has also subpoenaed the National Archives for any and all documents over the course of the four years of the Trump White House related to classification, anything classificationrelated. So that involves how to safeguard documents, any training logs that show that these are the people that attended these seminars on how to declassify information, or anything pertaining to the policies or lack thereof in the white house that can show these people including former President Trump knew the difference between classified things and declassified things and that not everything in the white house was declassified by the power of trumps mind. That being said that is so interesting. Let me just follow up with you. I mean, that seems to get at the same thing that tim and the select committee sought to get at. Just because trump asserted that he thought he won, you had his campaign manager, you had his Campaign Data guy, you had his campaign pollster, all his campaign allies saying he lost and we told him he lost, we went and investigated his lies and we found his lies were just that, lies. It seems that there is a pattern emerging that he says i declassified it by thinking it and one of the things jack smith is doing is trying to put some reporting or some evidence behind this idea that youre articulating, that he was briefed on this date, this person was in the room, mark meadows who walked up to the residence had been briefed 11 times including on these six days, that they all knew there was a process for declassification. Is that right . Yeah. And there is like there has been with so many things, there is a paper trail there. You know, the National Archives has so far according to our sources produced thousands of documents and continued to produce those documents on a rolling basis to the Justice Department although theyve been told to hurry things up and wrap it up because, you know, what at least we have deduced that signifies is it is again the latest sign that jack smith is trying to wrap up all of the evidence and make a decision. But as of today as everyone has laid out, the Trump Lawyers went into the Justice Department and we have also confirmed that they did meet with jack smith and a handful of other top officials at the Justice Department and essentially laid out the case for why their client, trump, shouldnt be indicted. But i do want to caution i know it seems like all signs that, you know, are pointing to the fact that an indictment is imminent. Im not necessarily sure that the grand jury being paneled this week means that its happening this week. There are a number of things that the grand jury could be doing. The lawyers can speak to this better. But we could be hearing from a new witness. We could be hearing from a witness who has now been immunized and compelled to testify. We could the grand jury could be potentially seeing a new body of evidence, new material that smith and his investigators have found. So there are really a number of things that could happen today. You know, not just you know, happen this week and the it not just the grand jurys going to vote on charges against the former president. Jackie, do we know anything about how the lawyers felt when they left the meeting with jack smith . And again, my only evidence was that they may not have felt great was that we are all students of trumps responses and reactions and his all caps, you know, grammatically incoherent tweet suggests it wasnt a great readout. That is right, nicolle. We did a little bit of reporting on that as well, that advisers to the former president do think that their client is ultimately going to be charged. It is just a matter of when, and that there wasnt any success necessarily that was had during this meeting. Charlie sykes, let me bring you in on this. A million different ways to say it, but you know, the bleep just got real, right . Donald trump knows it. We all know it. It seems to be a matter of when at this point, not if there is sufficient evidence should jack smith and Merrick Garland decide to indict donald trump for mishandling of classified documents potentially and obstruction of that investigation. Well, and i think thats been made very clear by what andrew said, what tim said, and what neal said, that it is in fact imminent. There are a lot of things that we dont know about this investigation. There are a lot of things that are, you know, still shrouded. But there are four things that we do know. We do know the federal judge has pierced the attorneyclient privilege which is extremely rare because she believed that evidence had suggested that there was a crime. That is a very, very big deal. That is a huge tell. We know that jack smith sat in on this meeting today. That is obviously as significant as the fact that number three, the grand jury is meeting and number four, as you just pointed out, what we also know is that donald trump is losing his mind on social media. I mean, all of these are scraps of evidence. We dont know what the prosecutors are going to do. We dont know what the charges will be, what the headline will be, but we do know that its gotten very, very real and all you need to do is track whats going on with those allcaps screeds from maralago because thats probably as good an indication of whether or not the meeting went well or not. And i think we know what the answer is there. You know, again, i think everyone is being careful to nod to what we dont know. I think after covering mueller for 23 months it was incredibly opaque. Your investigation was opaque until you decided to show us your work. What are you looking for when this becomes more Public Facing . What are your questions . I mean, look, i think we have a lot of speculation about what was in the president s mind. We spend a lot of our time on the select committee trying to uncover evidence of whether the president was specifically aware of the lack of evidence of Election Fraud. Specific awareness in an indictment that alleges specific knowledge that the stuff was declassified. And again, intent maybe to do something with it. Thats hard for a prosecutor to prove. Evidence of state of mind. A prosecutor could issue a oneparagraph indictment with the elements of the statute. Or he could issue a Speaking Indictment, which lays out in some detail some of the evidence or some of the facts that give rise to those charges. I think it would be very interesting to see what the special counsel if they do proceed with an indictment, do they do a Speaking Indictment that gives america a little bit more sort of meat on the bones of sorts or do they issue a very cursory elements of the Statute Indictment which just says he violated this statute and these are the elements of that statute . Do you have a sense of which is more likely . I mean, i think you could argue that theres a Public Interest to getting more information i mean, mueller did the second. Exactly right. Prosecutors are mindful of the magnitude of cases, that certain cases are more significant. Theres a greater degree of Public Interest. That sort of suggests maybe a peaking indictment, a little bit more meat on the bones than youd normally see in an indictment might make sense in a case like this. Neal, you get the last word. What are you looking to be revealed if this goes to the next level, to a potential indictment of donald trump . Yeah, i think the indictment will come in two parts and i think it will be it will have more detail rather than less. I dont think theyll do what bragg did in new york and kind of leave a lot for later, in part because of the Public Interest. And the two parts are number one the mishandling side, which i think is very straightforward, just about how the documents were picked up, discovered and so on. But its number two, the Obstruction Side, that i think im really going to be looking at because its the Obstruction Side in which this case appears not to be an ordinary mishandling of Classified Information case but this is about thumbing your nose at the law, thumbing your nose at the National Security apparatus, numbing your nose at our intelligence professionals around the world, thumbing your nose at our allies. And when someone behaves in that way, if you know, these reports about what trump did are accurate, thats what to me will be the strength of the indictment and thats where the ball game will be and where trump will face the most serious consequences. Thats so interesting. I think, neal, we talk so much about how trump running for president makes this investigation more challenging. What you just articulated, the fact that trump is running to be not just president but the nations commander in chief, makes this investigation the most important and central question to ask and answer ahead of that run. Neal, thank you for overcoming technical issues and otherwise. We cant have these conversations without you. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Tim, jackie and charlie are sticking around. When we come back, were going to turn to the story we were going to start the hour with before that Breaking News. The other Investigation Being Led by special counsel jack smith. This one even more opaque. The one concerning january 6th and the plot by the disgraced expresident and his allies to plan a coup to overturn the results of his 2020 election defeat. Well get to that new reporting after a quick break. Also ahead, theyve done it to block voting rights. Now theyre doing it to block reproductive rights. How republicans are subverting the democratic process all over the country in an extreme and i should add unpopular bid to stop the right to access Abortion Health care and keep voters from having their say about it. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Ere. Its not too late to show summers whos boss. And wayfairs got just what you need. They have all the top grills and gear. With smoking fast shipping. And wayfair deals so epic. Youll feel like a big deal. Yes so get outdoorsy for way less at wayfair. Wayfair, youve got just what i need vo this is sadie. 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After taking release, that stopped. With release, i didnt feel that hunger that comes with dieting. Which made the golo plan really easy to stick to. Since starting golo and release, i have dropped seven pant sizes and ive kept it off. Golo is real, our customers are real, and our Success Stories are real. Why not give it a try . There is some other really significant new news in the second criminal investigation being conducted by special counsel jack smith. According to brand new reporting in the Washington Post, in november and December Of 2020 the Trump Campaign spent over a Million Dollars paying two firms, Berkeley Research group and Simpatico Software systems, to study whether fraud had occurred in the president ial election. Those two firms hired by the Trump Campaign couldnt find any, could not verify donald trump and the campaigns claims. And when they couldnt find any evidence, they shared that conclusion with the Trump Campaign. Today the Washington Post is reporting that according to people familiar with the matter those two studies performed by those companies have become, quote, an increasing focus of federal and state investigators in recent weeks. Washington post stating this, quote, On The Federal Level Justice Department special counsel jack smith is questioning witnesses about the companys work and has obtained hundreds of pages of emails and research. What prosecutors have sought to show according to people whove been questioned is that trump and his aides willfully ignored evidence in their push to raise money and overturn the election and that a panoply of advisers had access to the data. The evidence is compelling to prosecutors because it is not neutral or thirdparty groups saying that trump lost but instead analysts whose work trumps own team commissioned and funded. Wow. Were back with tim heaphy, Charlie Sykes and Jackie Alemany. Did you have access to these two reports . We did not. We only knew about one of the two. The simpatico report came up with an interview we did with alex cannon, who was a campaign lawyer. And when he was asked about it he asserted attorneyclient privilege, said i cant share with you the results of that because it was a commissioned report by counsel. Its an example of a lot of things where we would come up against assertions of privilege with people that knew that we did not have what jack smith has, is the ability to quickly adjudicate that assertion and potentially overcome that claim of privilege. So we were aware of one of the two, not the Berkeley Research group one. But we never got access to either report. Tell me why they matter. They matter because they go directly to the president s state of mind. We developed a lot of evidence, very similar to the conclusions that are being reported in those reports, that people looked hard inside the Justice Department, inside the Trump Campaign at allegations of Election Fraud and found that they were meritless. And that was conveyed directly to the president. We also, really importantly, we interviewed i think Jared Kushner actually produced a document that said the campaign, the same campaign that commissioned these independent reports, didnt just rebut the claims of fraud but actually explained to the president why he lost. There was actually a state by State Accounting in this document that kushner produced to us which posited that it was turnout in exurban areas, or outer suburbs. The president really underperformed in 2020 in those areas compared to how he had done in 2016. So they didnt just say you lost because theres no evidence of fraud. They said you lost because you didnt perform in those exurban areas visavis your opponent like you did in 2016. So the affirmative explanation for the loss to me is just as compelling as the lack of evidence that would suggest voter fraud. All of that very developed. But we did not have, to be clear, those two independently commissioned research reports. And did you know about them from your interviews with Jared Kushner and bill stepien and other Campaign Officials . No. We knew alex cannon, the campaign lawyer, told us, confirmed that there had been a simpatico report. Jared kushner was asked about efforts to look into allegations of Election Fraud and he claimed not to be aware. Jason miller, directly involved in this all the way from the beginning, claimed not to be aware. Now, was that, you know, completely truthful or were they aware of these reports and did not provide that to the select committee . Arguably yes. I cant prove that. But there are a lot of witnesses, nicolle, that didnt recall things that were hard for us to imagine they actually didnt recall. Let me show you some of what i mean, its an incredible dual realities, right . Before your Committee People like bill barr and others were quick to say that they were standing over here on earth one, they knew trump lost and they told him. But facing questioning, it sounds like at least individuals you mentioned were not particularly forthcoming. Yeah. There were people that were directly involved in the campaign all the way through january 6th who didnt share with us the existence of this work. You have to be clear, though, that the initial campaign leadership, bill stepien and others, were essentially jettisoned. It was pretty early right, it became a different campaign. They were trying to win in early november. And then when he was claiming fraud i think the campaign does the first report. Yes. I think jackie had that reporting. The campaign does the first report to see if giulianis claims are true. And the Campaign Comes back with the coms department, i believe. Exactly right. Yes. And they say no, this is not true. No. And bill stepien says that. Hes present at that meeting where the state by State Accounting, hey, you didnt perform in the exurban areas, is presented to the president. Hes jettisoned. And he describes this as team normal vs. Team crazy. Its team crazy that rushes in and is telling the president oh, theres evidence of fraud and we have to look into this. And its at that point that it looks like these reports were commissioned, lets get the Berkeley Research group or lets get simpatico systems in to look at it. According to the posts reporting they did that and just like bill barr, just like bill stepien, just like everyone who to this day in 2023 has looked at these claims, found that they are meritless. That was conveyed to the president. Thats why its important to jack smith. Is it possible that jack smith is as far along or farther along than we know from the outside in revealing trumps intent in the coup plot . As he is in the maralago. Its hard to say. In a case like this you want to leave no stone untender. You want to go to every possible source of information regardless of whether it might be favorable or unfavorable. You want to scour the universe to get everything. Hes pretty far along. I mean, when mike pence was in the grand jury. Thats not a witness that you call early in an investigation. Thats arguably the last person that you call before you invite the lawyers to the Justice Department to say why should we not indict you. So i think absolutely, on the jan 6 case as well as the maralago case hes pretty far along. We gave him a pretty good head start, candidly, by disclosing all of the transcripts and all of the documents that we and we articulated a multipart plan to overturn the election which shows a lot of evidence of trumps intent to obstruct that official proceeding. So he wasnt starting from 0. He was starting from the 50 yard line or even further. But my guess is hes made substantial progress and hes also closing in on the end of the fact gathering phase of that investigation. Mark milley figures into what has become public in the documents case because it is a grudge match between mark milley, which is some of the i guess context for why hes waving around a plan for an attack on iran. Mark milley plays into the intent piece squarely on the coup as well. Theres a transcript you guys released that zero minus two hours at the very end. And chairman milley is talking about a conversation with trump. I believe its about iran but i could have that wrong. Its clear trump knows he lost and hes leaving. Yeah. How central is someone like that who was simply kind of walking the line for u. S. National security in those final days . Yeah. Very important. Every time theres evidence of the president directly uttering something, its important. And what youre referring to is that general milley says he was in the white house after the election had been called for President Biden talking about a substantial Foreign Policy issue. I think it was iran. And trump turns to him and says this is not up to me, this is up to the next guy. Sort of an acknowledgment that he will not be the Decision Maker for very much because he lost. Longer because he lost. So again, evidence of the president s awareness being conveyed again and again by bill barr, by bill stepien and others and statements like he made to mark milley suggests that everything he says thereafter is a lie and an intent to mislead, is an intent to obstruct the official proceeding. Again, thats why the special counsels so interested in that. Jackie, it seems that what you and your colleagues are reporting is moving questions that we have, again, as a public on the outside about the january 6th investigation and its seriousness and the amount of evidence amassed and the places where it builds on or pierces, places where the congressional investigation wasnt able to get. But its at that point, right . Where its pushing through some of those doors that were slammed shut by trumps insiders including these two reports that the Congressional Committee didnt have access to. What are you guys reporting in terms of both the significance and the maturity of the january 6th probe on jack smiths part . I have to be a little cheeky and note that we obtained these reports without a subpoena or touche. But i mean jack smith has a lot of evidence. Its point blank. Something i found really interesting, some of these nuggets that my colleague josh dawsey brought up in his reporting about both of these reports that have been of interest not just to special counsel jack smith but also to fani willis in fulton county, georgia is that some of the asks around these reports, that they were clearly circulated amongst top trump officials. They were emailed about. One extremely telling and illuminating anecdote to me is that federal prosecutors had obtained evidence from some of the employees who were working for the berkeley study that mark meadows berated employees at the firm after they said there wasnt enough evidence to overturn the Election Results and encouraged them to find fraud. So those are the kinds of details, these ones that josh scrounged up, that smith is getting to bring all of this to life and to tell a story in order to potentially land charges. But where we are in that january 6th process is still as tim noted a pretty opaque but they certainly at least publicly have been able to penetrate some more walls in part due to the length of time, the amount of staff, the manpower in addition to their subpoena power and some of their legal powers that the Congressional Committee did not have. You know, charlie, the power of all of the evidence that the Congressional Committee presented, and i wont do it today because i feel my control room reach for the tums every time i quote bill barr calling it b. S. But it was b. S. , bill barr, over and over. Alex cannon, a campaign lawyer, yes, we knew we lost. Bill stepien, the campaign manager, yes, we lost. Some of them kind of look like they were admitting that under duress. But in these interviews, in these taped depositions they all knew they lost. Now you have the data that shows how they all knew that they lost. They didnt trust us. They didnt trust fox news. They it trusted these two private firms that commissioned reports that showed them that they lost. It feels like a question that maybe jack smith is going to help us understand and answer, is the role that the violence played when they all knew that there wasnt a state where you could go use your fake electors and overturn it because he hadnt lost by just one state. And there wasnt a court case because there were 61 and he lost all 60. All he had was the mob. That was it. And i wonder as the evidence piles up on the intent and the knowledge of his defeat and its really weeks and weeks and weeks now that they all knew they lost. What was the intent of the December 19th tweet and what did he really want to do by going to the capitol on january 6th . Well, that goes to the heart of the whole case, doesnt it . That hed exhausted all of his other alternatives. He tried to get the legislatures to overturn. They wouldnt do it. He went to the courts. The courts recognized that he had no case. And he wasnt persuading even members of his own party and his own Vice President to go along. So he was left with the mob. But to your point, the amount of evidence that is being compiled here is truly extraordinary. I mean, this is a cascade of evidence. There are tapes. There are videotapes, theres the reports. Theres testimony. And as tip pointed out we dont know what the status of the january 6th investigation is but its certainly relevant that the special committee did give the grand jury a huge head start and that they did bring the former Vice President in to testify, which is something you wouldnt do until the end. So im certainly hoping that its advanced. Im certainly hoping that theyre able to tell the narrative. Nicolle, you are a novelist. It strikes me as this is a story that is going to require perhaps many skilled novelists to tell this story because it is so extraordinary when you tie together all of the different threads, when you link together and connect the dots of mark milley and the role that he played in all of this, sitting with the former president and discussing what these war plans are. This is an extraordinary story. And im hoping that when all this comes out that jack smith or whos ever working with jack smith will tell this story. Because you asked the question before about the kinds of indictments. This cries out for the talking indictment. Tell the story to the american people. Why this is taking place, what happens r happened. The january 6th committee did an outstanding job and now its in jack smiths hands. You get the last word. Totally agree. We found a compelling story. Hes going beyond what we found and is only seemingly adding chapters to the story that are really compelling. Look, just on the record that we developed we recommended criminal charges. Obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy to defraud the United States, false statements. From what im reading, and i dont know anything more than you do, that showing, that evidentiary predicate is only getting stronger. And therefore, as charlie said, i think that this criminal process can flush out the story even more and ultimately might result in accountability. And thats hugely important for the preservation of democracy. Especially ahead of another election in which hes running. Right. Its amazing. Its great to have you here today of all days. Thank you so much. Jackie alemany, thank you for spending so much of this hour with us and for sharing your reporting on both of our big lead stories. Charlie sykes, cant do any of these conversations without you. Thank you, my friend, for spending 45 minutes with us. Its too much to ask but were grateful. When we come back, we will turn to republicans because they keep losing when voters go to the polls to have their say on the issue of access to Reproductive Health care abortion rights. So now theyre doing Something Else. Whatever they can to stop those elections from taking place. Well explain after a short break. Dont go anywhere. K. Dont go anywhere. Needs. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. Shelves. Shelves that know what taste buds want. Shelves smart enough to see, sense, react, restock. So Caramel Swirl is always there for the taking. The chase Ink Business Premier Card is made for people like sam who make. . Everyday products. Designed smarter. Like a smart Coffee Grinder that orders fresh beans for you. Oh, genius for more breakthroughs like that. I need a breakthrough card. Like ours with 2. 5 cash back on purchases of 5,000 or more. Plus unlimited 2 cash back on all other purchases and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas. A brilliant reality the Ink Business Premier Card from chase for business. Make more of whats yours. Trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. Enough was enough. I talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. Now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids thats my nunormal with nucala. Nucala is a oncemonthly addon injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. Nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. Allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Infections that can cause shingles have occurred. Dont stop steroids unless told by your doctor. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. May cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. Talk to your asthma specialist to see if oncemonthly nucala may be right for you. And learn about savings at nucala. Com theres more to your life than asthma. Find your nunormal with nucala. One prilosec otc each morning blocks heartburn all day and all night. Prilosec otc reduces excess acid for 24 hours, blocking heartburn before it starts. One pill a day. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. In election after election after election since the Supreme Court stripped away the constitutional right to an abortion nearly one year ago now voters have made it abundantly clear that they dont like this, they dont want the government infringing on their right to access Reproductive Healthcare. Well, so what do republicans do . What do you think . Gop state legislatures are now working overtime to prevent voters from having that say. In the latest attempt, Andrew Bailey is being accused of overstepping his authority when he demanded changes to the cost estimate of an abortion rights petition from the 51,000 a year to 51 billion. Im not good at math, but that happens to be one million times higher. It matters because it comes that republicans are making it clear that theyre willing to lie and subvert democracy to keep women from accessing basic health care and to keep from losing elections in south dakota. Abortion rights advocates are in a court battle after being prevented from collecting signatures for county buildings from the state initiative. In Ohio Republicans are trying to change from simple majority to 60 after an abortion Rights Initiative was proposed. In a closeddoor meeting supporters pushed the measure saying out loud again reportedly describing their campaign this way, you dont say abortion. You dont say 60 and you dont bring up social issues that divide republicans. The focus will be on protecting the constitution from special interests. Joining us on conversation is mini timarajio. Minnie, we get to a lot of parts of the story because there isnt a lot of publicfacing evidence that one, they know what theyre doing is deeply unpopular even with Republican Voters and two, they are rigging the rules in a way that is unconstitutional, immoral, and i think, i guess courts will have the final say, illegal. Courts having the final say is a challenge for us, as well because weve seen they are completely willing courts are completely unwilling to rig that as well as were seeing in highprofile cases. At the end of the day, you nailed it. This is a clear example of how when they cannot win they rig or change the game and the Republican Party is masters at projection. They have been rigging the system for so long theyre doing it with total disregard as they said to their own base and their own party. Weve seen poll after poll including their own research saying that the majority of trumpsupporting republicans are with the bans and the best we can do is continue to mobilize and continue with the elections and were feeling pretty good with that. These numbers just blow my mind. The bands that eliminate exceptions by the life of the mother oppose by 93 of benefits and theyre imposed by 83 by all americans and theres not a ton of polling on the bands that make it harder to pursue ivf or infertility and that is the real Life Experience and of course, theyre the faces of overturning roe now. The country has gotten to know amanda sewrowski. The longer the bans are in place the more stories like a hand well see penetrate public consciousness thanks to great reporting like yours and many other outlets we see an egregious case breaking through the news on a week by week basis and that will only continue and make this issue more salient in upcoming elections. The other thing i want to point out on the polling on bans and whats important to understand is a ban is a ban. Weve talked about that on the show. A ban is a ban. These exceptions dont work for a host of reasons because theyre subject to so much interpretation and theres not enough jurisdiction or standards for how they can be enforced and doctors for providers and for patients to make decisions unfettered by these biases created by these bans and the Chilling Effect it has on Proper Health care. The other piece of it is in the states where were seeing hospital closures were seeing providers. So even if youre not moved by the abortion argument which most americans are, you can get access to care in the state because of the way the bans have impacted Health Care Delivery in your state and in your region because of these bans. Right. I think the notion that doctors and physicians are making plans for the occasion that theyre arrested, people to take care of their kids that women, you know, there now is a politician as dr. Oz threatened in the hospital room or in the Doctors Office with a woman and her doctor is something that is deeply, deeply unpopular. Mini, im sorry this conversation got cut short byic Breaking News, but i am so glad we talked. Well take a short break. Well be right back. Well take a short break well be right back. We talked. Well take a short break. Well be right back. Hort break well be right back. vo this is sadie. Shes on verizon, and she has the new myplan where she gets exactly what she wants and only pays for what she needs. She picks only the perks she wants and saves on every one all with an incredible new iphone. Get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. Its your verizon. Finally today, President Biden welcomed the super bowl champs the caps as city chiefs to the white house today. The chiefs beat the Philadelphia Eagles in super bowl lvii earlier in the year and thats the reason the president joked, jill biden, a philadelphia native was not in attendance for the ceremony. Our thanks to you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful. The beat with ari melber starts after a short break. Switch. Its your verizon. I want my daughter riley to know about her ancestors and how important it is to know who you are and to know where you came from. Were discovering together. Its been an amazing gift. My husband and i have never been more active. Wer shingles doesnt care. I go to spin classes with my coworkers. Good for you, shingles doesnt care. Because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. But shingrix protects. Proven over 90 effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. 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To receive 1000 off your kohler® walkin bath. And take advantage of our low Monthly Payment financing. Happy monday. Welcome to the beat. Im ari melber. We have quite a story leading off