President joe biden just touched down making remarks at a September 11th Remembrance at the Military Base in anchorage. Well bring the remarks to you as soon as they get under way. The Memorials Today A Reminder of the moment of National Unity that took place in the aftermath of the brutes September 11th attacks. As the attacks revealed humanitys capacity for pure evil. The ability to inflict almost unspeakable horrors on other humans. What happens after 9 11 reveals best of humanity. Never forget the images, allhands on deck effort and the National Effort to support First Responders and victims and all their families and the pledge to never forget. The attacks also fundamentally changed washington, d. C. For a moment. Officials of both parties along with former officials of both parties were in Public Office at the time of the attacks attended events today to mark that. It is an echo of how americans were, for a while, able to set aside all differences, political and otherwise. And just a question we ask today 2, 2 years later. Are we still that country . Can we still do that . Are we capable of that kind of National Unity . 22 years later, the republic faces something he didnt have to deal with back then. A grave let that comes from within. According to Government Officials of both political parties, the gravest threat to our homeland right now today does not come from abroad anymore. It is instead, domestic violent extremism and these officials tell us it is on the rise. Fbi director Christopher Wray appointed by donald trump last year called Political Violence a 365day phenomenon. New reporting today on alarming gaps in the way we handle has is becoming a major focus on the domestic violent extremists themselves. Attacks on our power grids. So how do americans contend with this threat . Today . In this country . How do we grapple with the fact that the threats we face, the threats to our homeland could come from somebody living right next door, from our fellow americans . Making the situation more complicated for all of us the fact that our politics are now intertwined with the threat. The freeflow of violent and dangerous rhetoric on one side of the political spectrum means the possibility that that rhetoric could proceed or lead to a sudden burst of violence, that looms over us at every moment. A moment of reflexes on the state of the country 22 years after the September 11th attacks. Where we start today. Mary mccourty National Security decision here. Andrew weissmann, back. Former Justice Department and fbi at the table for the hour, former u. S. Senator Claire Mccaskill and my schmitt. Mary, start with you. Regardless where the threat emanated from, your body of work for your career. What are your thoughts today . Well, you know, what i reflect on, on 9 11, is that attacking Critical Infrastructure, you know, that was what 9 11 was. Mass transportation is part of our Critical Infrastructure, and weve seen attacks not only in the u. S. , of course, with 9 11, buttalswhere, trying to inflict mass casualties and create really psychological trauma by foreign terrorist organizations. Thats what al qaeda was doing on 9 11 and what other Foreign Terrorists groups, particularly islamist extremist groups have done elsewhere in the world. Attacks here in recent years, theres a significant uptick documented, tend to be not so much on our Mass Transportation or intended to inflict mass casualties when theyre committed by domestic extremists, but this rise in attacks on our electrical grids, also part of our Critical Infrastructure and also characterized as a federal crime of terrorism, done often times to create chaos, to deepen societal divides by trying to suggest to americans that their government cant protect things, basics like their power grid and used by skellerists to accelerate towards societal collapse so in their minds, means whats could emerge from that a White Supremacist state. A white nationalist, christian nationalist country. And so, you know, attacks on Critical Infrastructure arent new. Used by terrorists for decades, but the motivation is different, and it is pretty, its really sobering to reflect on where weve come over these 22 years. From mostly looking outward at the signs of danger, and concern, and banding together as you indicated, to trying to protect against that foreign terroristic threat. Sometimes you know, very, in a way like, that you prayed, americans coming together, sometimes in a way unfortunately targeted our muslim neighbors. And i dont mean neighbors outside this country, although i mean them as well, but neighbors right here inside this country in our own communities. You know, now weve come at a very, in a very different direction. As you indicate, the perpetrator of an attack on our power grid sometimes it doesnt cause a lot of injury. Sometimes it leaves thousands of people without power for days, and it has been attributed to some deaths. This threat could come just right, you know, from anyone. Domestically, who has bought into disinformation, who is, you know, becoming more of an adherent to this idea of White Christian national im, because they feel, perhaps, they have something theyre losing as we become a multicultural country and dont want to lose something and the way, one way preventing that, in their minds, engage in these kind of attacks. So ive never imagined on 9 11 that we would be 22 years later talking about this threat at home. Yeah. I mean, i think andrew weissmann, its sort of trauma on top of tragedy on top of trauma on top of tragedy. Right . Trauma of 9 11. I still, when i see the local footage of the memorials, i cry through all of them. But theres the tragedy on top of the trauma which is this question we have to ask. Right . I want to play, again, this is not a program posing this question. These are what Government Officials throughout the last i think three aministrations articulated represents the greatest threat to the homeland. Let me play some of them. Secretary majorca, last year you se domestic vile rcht extremism poses the most lethal and persistent terrorismrelated threat to our country today. Is that still true . Mr. Chairman, that continues to be our assessment in the department of Homeland Security. That domestic violent extremism, particularly through lone actors, or small groups, loosely affiliated, are spurred to violence by ideologists of hate, ant government sentiments, personal grievances and other narratives, propagated on online platforms. Since the spring of 2020, so the past 16, 18 months or so, we have more than doubled our domestic terrorism caseload from about 1,000 to around 2,700 investigations. And weve surged personnel to match more than doubles the am of week working that threat from the year before. We have a growing fear of domestic violent extremism and domestic terrorism, and both of those keep me up at night, every morning virtually every morning, i get a briefing from the fbi and one or the other or both areas. Andrew, by design our country, people, protecting our country like those three individuals, have fewer tools to combat domestic violent terrorism, but i wonder if you think that we are structurally in a place that that should get more attention . Well, first, nicolle, on personal level, started out, i still to this day remember driving my father to work and hearing the first plane overhead, and we thought it was going to the airport. Not to attack the world trade center, and then i saw the second plane and then from my office, the u. S. Trade office watched people as they jumped from the tower which is its still to this day, unimaginable. When you think about the trajectory that you and mary talked about, that, you know, i think in many ways is embodied by rudy giuliani, that was the day which was his finest moment, and he was a statesman and held the country together, not just the city, and when you see sort of, what has happened to him it is very much an embodiment of in many ways insanity that has gripped our country, and, you know, one way in which i think people are combating this is not just the Department Of Justice where you see many people held to account for engaging in domestic terrorism, as they should be, but i also think when you see an image of joe biden visiting a memorial for john mccain, from a different party, and being able to be an american and human and decent first, that models the behavior that you want to see from a president , regardless of politics, and i think, unfortunately, i think that the tools we have are not ones where you look just to the criminal Justice System. I think the Intelligence Community and the criminal Justice System are capable of dealing with this. It does pose unique challenges, because of the domestic context, as you noted, and because of the roles, but i think that, because its a deeper problem that it really has to be addressed in terms of Modeling Behavior and values that we need to instill in people, because we really are very, very lost from where we were 22 years ago. Yeah. And claire, i think, andrews right, and joe bidens bet is that the most he can do is to fight in ways that are not at least detectable for the institutions and the norms that he reveres, and so far, hes been right. Right . He won in 2020. I feel that sometimes those fights are asymmetrical in ways that make them, like, marching up a hill with 1,000 pound bolder strapped to your back, one hand tied beyond your back and in high heels, its so difficult. But he believes the best antidote to everything he sees in the system, cleave off the extremes, make peace with the rest. I mean, he was, i think, the first Public Official to give Mitch Mcconnell a clear back after Mitch Mcconnells doctor, but my question for you is, is that is that a symmetry going to catch up with him . Do you think that the fight is still fair, in the political arena . Well i dont know thats fair, but its winnable. Hmm. You know, andrew mentioned rudy giuliani. 22 years ago, his Approval Rating was about 72 in america. A poll take an few days, his Approval Rating was 16 . And who are they . Tell you who they are. Calcified epicenter of trumpism. And i want to, in this somber reflection of what our country went through and how we united after that moment, i want to lay blame clearly and simply at fact for the first time in america we had a leader that had no desire to unite the country. I mean, george bush wanted to unite the country. Sometimes he wanted to do it in ways i disagreed with. Bill clinton wanted to unite the country. George bushs father wanted to unite the country, john mccain wanted to unite the country. Joe biden wants to unite theres only one outlier here. Donald trump wanted to drive a wedge of grievance between americas most vaulted institutions and the American People. And that grievance is his political coin in the realm. And it is making people angry and cynical, not all americans. I think most americans are weighing in on rudy giuliani, exactly right. They want us to get back to a time where its not all aboutpo. That we can come together and i think thats joe biden strongest case for reelection, stronger than any policy. Its the ideals of this countries and the extremism were not prevail. We have a lot of challenges around that, but it cannot prevail, and donald trump has people that totally bought in, but not majority of this great country. And something reptilian about what trump set out to do for a second and third. Fundamentally alter the way people viewed institutions in which mary and andrew worked. Fundamentally change the way people held the nonpolitical nature of the Justice Department and the fbi. You sort of touched on this in the intro, but how would you country react today if 9 11 happened . How would the country really came together. Do you really think if Something Like that happened, that there would be that unity . I think thats hard to imagine. And i cant help but think as i ask that question about september 11, 2012. Height of obamas election. That terrible attack in benghazi, and his opponent, mitt romney, but out a statement that day trying to appeal to the far right of the party, and accuses obama of being on the side of the attackers, saying that the u. S. Response had been empathetic, kicking up this stuff about benghazi that goes on for years and years. Its a slide. We make a mistake if we think it started i forgot that. Its not over. Hold him up as good guy. The storys not over. Benghazi becomes a huge issue on fox news, and on the far right and go on and on and on and on and turns into pressure to investigate the Benghazi Attacks because getting so much, you know, presure frafromthat part of the party. That Committee Sends subpoenas to the State Department asking for a lot of documents, and in those documents are the emails that showed Hillary Clinton used her personal email account. Look how are things connected, not connected . Its just an example of how romney in trying to to appeal to that part of the party. Yeah. Created this notion that went on and on for several years, until it achieved significant damage that the republicans hoped it would. Kevin mccarthy said that on the record. It is amazing, and it is important and it shouldnt take our slowing ourselves down on a day like today, mary to get to it, but the slide towards political extremism certainly predates trump. I guess the distinction is that boehner was leader and as mikes describes, he bends to the pressure. What happens now is that trump directs the pressure at the Department Of Justice and the fbi. I think thats right, and, you know, beyond even whats happening with government, and, you know, this, now, of course, we have congressmember jordan way whole series of hearings on the weaponization of the Department Of Justice. Almost like theres, not almost like. Reality is, there is a, a very vocal, very active portion of our elected officials in congress who are, you know, actively at war with institutions like the Department Of Justice. And constantly politicizing everything. Certainly politicizing the investigations of donald trump as being political persecution, even when, you know, the evidence is there and the evidence we all can see for ourselves. But the infection isnt just sort of within the politics at that level. The infection, you know harks gotten out there into the american psyche all over the country because i think youre right. Its not new there would be political divides. Its not new there would be White Supremacist, supremacism, those analogies have never gone way in america and sprang up really with the genesis of america. Hundreds of years of historical roots in this country, but they had been tamped down. They had been kind of put under a rock, and what has happened in the current moment, and i think mikes reflection back on 2012 is apt. I was criminal chief in the u. S. Attorney Generals Office when the Benghazi Attack happened and eventually prosecuted people for that attack. Seeing that, that evolution since, in the last 10, 11 years is pretty remarkable. But what going on that has started maybe then but really amped up with donald trump is people being willing to just come out and be very public about their white supremacy. Superior publicable their Christian Nationalism and make it seem like it is actually politically mainstreamed and an acceptable ideology in the country and perfectly fine to engage in intimidation, threats, even acts of violence based on your ideology. I mean, look. I think, andrew, brings us back to this big question. Right . So still take your shoes off at the airport. Unless you have your tsa precard and a lane is open. Other than, you know, a passenger annoyed, you dont see anyone refusing to do that, when after 9 11, they put up the metal detectors, republicans refused to go through them and or give up their guns. You know how an inability to concede any personal prerogative for the security of the whole, and i guess thats where the questions about who are we, if we get attacked again, emanate from. You know, listening to mike, thinking another example of that sense of division and victimization came with covid, where it was a national and global problem that you would think any other normal administration, republican or democrat, you would have a unifying effect of the country and of the globe. Over how to deal with this, and it was used, instead, in this divisionive way, and so you, as a friend of mine said, who was sort of a bush republican, said he does not have a party anymore. Uhhuh. Because youve got such you know, youve got attack that is completely about division and playing all sorts of cards, race, national origin, sex, class, homophobia and antisemitism. You name it. All of that is part and parcel of a way of maintaining power of sort of the maga far right, and so, you know, that is a part of who we have become, as mary said. Its now much more out in the open and mainstreamed, in a way that it did exist, but not with this much power and not with a sense that it used to be, like it could exist and that people knew it was wrong. Now people just embrace it as its right, and sort of sarah, people view this as a mistake on mccains part now is the way forward for a part of the group. Andrew, listen to the president , interrupting you. Just taken the microphone. Remarks in anchorage, alaska, remembrance of 9 11. Lets listen in. The major general, i i really appreciate all you do. And as is general sacks and tribal stewards of these sacred lands and all Family Members and distinguished guests here i join you on this solemn day to renew our sacred vow. Never forget. Never forget. We never forget. Each of us, each of those precious lives stolen too soon when evil attacked, crowds that are in new york and i remember standing there the next day and looking at the building. I felt like i was looking through the Gates Of Hell. It looked so devastated, because of the way, from where you could stand. Shanksville, pennsylvania. The pentagon in virginia. I spent in those Hall Ode Grounds to bear witness and remember those we lost. Every day but especially the last few days their memorys been with me. Im just returning from the g20 summit in india where we strengthened americas leadership on the global stage. Followed by a historic trip to vietnam, transforming our partnership in one of the most critical reasons in the world. These trips are a sense of how were going to ensure that the United States is flanked by the broadest array of allies and partner whose will stand with us and deter any threat to our security. To build a world safer for all of our children. Something that today of all days were reminded of is not a given. Because at this Military Base is located on ground zero, we know the distance did not dole or diminish the pain we felt all across the nation of September 11th. Because we know on this day 22 years ago from this base, scrambled on high alert to escort planes through the airspace. Alaskan communities opened their doors for stranded passengers. American flags sold out of every store and out in front of americans homes. Every big city, small town, suburb, rural town, tribal community, american hands went up. Ready to help where they could. Ready to serve like so many of you here. Ready, like chief Master Sergeant shady taylor here with us today, recently started college when flight 93 went down a few miles from shanksville and said, i quote i immediately knew i wanted to sign up and suit up to serve my country. Ready like general excuse me. General eisler who said on that day, when our nation calls we must be ready. They called and we went without hesitation. My fellow americans, September 11th, 2001 tested our strength, our resolve and our courage. The Billowing Smoke and ash that darkened a Clear Blue Sky that september day, the shredded steel and concrete slabs that rained down from the world trade center. The plume of fire that shot up in the sky at pentagon i remember seeing as i got off the amtrak train on my way to work in the United States senate. The pit and into the earth shanksville. Merkel reserve. We endured. We endured. Every year we mark this hallowed day its never easy. To anyone here or anyone across the country whos grieving a lost child, parents, spouse, sibling, coworker, all of those who still bear wounds from the this september morning, i know how hard it is on a day like this. How can we reopen that boom . Its like opening a black hole in your chest. Sucking you into it again. Bringing you back to that moment when you saw the news. The moment you got that phone call. The moment you realized youd never say again, see ya later, mom. Or talk to you soon, son. Think of everything your loved one might have done if they had a little more time. What would they have done . Though that can leave you so hollow, it also makes you full at the same time. On this day, im thinking about a friend of mine named davis who grew up with me in delaware. 22 years ago he and his family just passed the first year without their youngest son, of three sons, who died in a Boating Accident at age 15. His oldest son davis jr. With just six days on a new job of the south tower of the world trade center. Davis went straight to ground zero to search for his son. Searched deep into the last as he referred hope as he put it. Few days later talk about a fur that knows about losing a piece are your soul. On may way to speak with students of the University Of Delaware to try to make sense of what happened. And guess what . Having lost two sons within a year davis told me, just tell them, joe, dont be afraid. Dont be afraid. The terrorist stole 297, 2,977 souls that day. 2,977 souls. Fresher in the future so many families, story of our nation. But those terrorists could not touch what no forest, no enemy, no day ever could. That is the soul of america. Whats the soul of america . Its the breath, the life, the essence of who we are. The souls that makes us, us. The soul of america is based on a sacred proposition were all created equal and life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Havent always looked up to it but never walked away from it either. The soul of america, fortitude found in the fear of that terrible september day. The purpose found in our pain, the light we found in our darkest hour. An hour when terrorists believed they could bring us to our knees, bend our will, break our resolve. But they were wrong. They were dead wrong the crucible of 9 11 on the days andfollowed we saw the Stuff America is made of. Firefighters, Police Office running into jet fuel, debris at ground zero. Breathing in toxins and ash damaging their own health but refused to stop nor months. Rushing into the fire and breach again and again and again to res crew their colleagues in the pentagon. Patriot passengers of flight 93. Think of this. Who did not know the horror that awaited them. But they confronted the unimaginable. Fear air terror with absolute courage. Astonishing. The poem maya angelou wrote, history, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived. But if we face it with courage we need not live it again. My mother had it in a different way. My mother, 52, lady with a backbone like a ramrod. She used to say, i mean this sincerely. Courage lies in every heart, and the expectation is that one day it will be summoned. On September 11th it was summoned at 9 57 a. M. It was summoned and 40 incredible men and within in shanksville answereded call. Civilians that gave their lives in in doing so served their country. Saw it on the ground of the pentagon and so it in so many other ways. These are heroes, like the Faith Community leaders across the country who pushed back against the fear and hate they saw directed at muslimamericans and Middle Eastern Americans of south asian descent. Heroes like all of you. The brave women and men of the armed forces, who never faltered, you never failed, to defend our nation and our people and our values in times of trial. Heroes like 9 11 generation, hundreds of thousands of brave americans deployed to afghanistan making sure the United States would not be attacked again. Who served in iraq, like many of you probably did, in war zones. Around the world, risking their own safety and safety for safety of their fellow citizens who serve add sacrificed again and again to save other democracy and deied terrorists. Followed osamu bin laden and sent him to the Gates Of Hell years ago. And i made a zawahiri. And today recently assessed and declassified a memo that al qaeda threat from afghanistan and packstein reached historic lee. All this changed over the last 22 years. Resolve of the American People has proved, we never bow. Ne we never bend. We never yield. Our longest war is over but our commitment to preventing another attack on the United States and our people and allies will never, never rest. Never. Terrorism including political and ideological violence is the opposite of what we stand for as a nation. It settles our differences peacefully under rule of law. Were going to continue to track Terrorist Threats and in all forms wherever it may be. Continue to disrupt Terrorist Activity wherever we may find it. And i will never hesitate to do what is necessary to defend the American People. Just as i will never forget our sacred duty to those of you who serve. Never before in our history, never before in the history has america asked so much for so many over such a sustained period for all volunteer forces. You make up 1 of the population and the strength, ven youre, youre the backbone and sinew of mishg. As a nation we have many obligations saying 30 years one truly sacred obligation. To prepare those we send into harms way and care for them and their families when they return home and when they do not return home. Its an obligation. Not based on party or politics. But on a promise that United States all americans, and together over the last two and a half years i worked to make good on that promise signing more than 25 bipartisan laws to support our Service Members and veterans and their families and caregivers and survivors. We will not stop. We owe you. We owe you big and it matters. Across the country Many Americans heard our nations call in the days right after 9 11. There are those who were just children. Not even born yet when this happened. But when the their time came to choose to serve, not because they saw something, but because they felt something, like many of you did. The same feeling that brought americans together on this painful day 22 years ago. Unity. Now, it shouldnt take a National Tragedy to remind us of the power of National Unity. But thats a truly honored how we truly honor those we lost on 9 11. Remembering what we can do together, to remember what destroyed what we repaired. What was threatened that we fortified. Attacked and and an American Spirit prevailed. Ordinary americans responding in extraordinary and unexpected ways. Thats who we are. You are the soul of the nation. Thats not hyperbole. To me thats a central lesson of September 11th. Not that well never again falter or face setbacks. For all our flaws and disagreement, theres nothing we cannot accomplish when we defend with our hearts, which make us unique in the world. Our democracy. Our democracy. Every generation has to fight to preserve it. Thats why the terrorist targeted us in the first place. Our freedom. Our openness. Our institutions. They have failed but we must remain vigilant. Today we can look across the country and Around The World and see anger and fear in places many of you have been stationed before. A rising tide of hatred and extreme and Political Violence. Its more than other we come together around the principle of American Democracy regardless of our political backgrounds and must not succumb to poisoning politics of division. Must jev never ourselves to be divided but stand united. We have a duty a responsibility to defend, to preserve, to protect our democracy. And always remember, American Democracy depends not on some of us but on all of us. American democracy depends on the habits of the heart. The we the people. The habits of heart. Let me close with this earlier today in hanoi i visited a marker to honor my friend, War Hero Senator and statesman john mccain. John and i disagree like hell like two brothers, argue like hell on the senate floor and then go to lunch together. I went out to see john just before he passed away at his home. As i was walking by, he pulled me down, said i love you. Will you do my eulogy. Jaund i were friends. Ted stevens and i were friends. Disagreed but were friends. One thing i admired about john, how he put duty to country first. Not hyperbole. He did. Above party, above politics. Above his own person. Disday reminds us we must never lose that sense of National Unity. So let that be the common cause of our time. Let us honor September 11th by renewing our faith in one another. Let us remember who we are as a nation. We never forget. Were never afraid. We endure. We overcome we are the United States of america and there is not literally historically, nothing beyond our capacity when we set our mind to it together. God bless you all. May god protect our troops. Thank you. [ applause ] an Arousing Speech from the commander in chief. President joe biden there. Went about 16 minutes. Hitting all four corners of all that is sacred to this president when it comes to Public Service, the military, sacrifice. Those who serve something bigger than themselves. Loss. Talked about those who didnt see their loved ones after that day and after they enlisted and the most animated, section about National Unity. He said our democracy was why terrorists targeted us on that day, talking about 9 11. And then he made a nod to his audience that they may look out at their own country and see a rising tide of Political Violence and political extremism. He said, we must not allow ourselves to be pulled apart. That democracy depends on the habits of the heart and ended it, claire, with that mccain moment weve talked absence absence absence being on the air. He heard us, longing for the days, where there could be unification among the two parties. It seems like an oldfashioned notion at this point. But the fact that he brought up his friendship with john mccain and brought up his friendship with ted stevens, and, you know, this is hes not this is totally authentic and who he is. After 10. 5 hours on a plane youre going to be exactly who you are. Exactly. It is what he will run on. Decency, humanity, unifying the country. The high ideals we all agree on. This is his strongest case and stronger than any of the, yes, he did bipartisans bills and yes, got things through the congress. I agree with you completely. Totally this is what he needs to run on and thats whats going to get the swing voters. Especially binary choice. Between division and calling people names and celebrating our differences versus our better angels. Let me say this in terms of a political message. I agree with you and i wasnt eastern thinking about that, but this was where he appeared to go off script. Clear some of the and teleprompter begins on an airplane 11 hours and people in the crowd to pay tribute to. The section about democracy. I dont think politics were on his mind today but he really is speaking to those who like him, drawn to Public Service saying i see what you see. And im on it. I thought it might be in some ways the most comfortable way to go at the most uncomfortable piece of the republican side, and that is, theyre lurch towards extremism and the party itself representing a threat to the homeland. Yep. Speaking to those republicans who dont think they have a party anymore. That andrew referenced top of the show. Hes speaking to people who cannot get onboard with the direction the Republican Party is going. And theres at least 25 of people who identifies republicans that are there. Hes saying to them come on over to the side of rightness, and the side that really Still Believes we can unite at times of crisis. Mike, he said this about mccain. You know, we were friends. He believed he had a deputiy to his countries. That duty to his country above politics. Theres a epilogue, the rest of the story telling involves john mccain rebuking romneys attacks on 9 11 in 2012. So mccain saw what romney did and the statement that romney put out and he called one of romney the aides said, what the heck are you guys doing . It was not heck. He says, you know, mccain really wanted obama to be defeated and he thought what romney did was unpresident ial. You cant put a statement out that about the commander in chief in the middle of the attack. You dont have all the facts why are you doing that . An example of mccain being that sort of putting, you know, the idea of fair political play and sort of the wellbeing of the country above the hyper partisan politics of that moment. So you were less than two months out from that president ial election, and he thought that despite that, what romney had done was very wrong. I want to come to you, mary, the president s section on domestic extremism. Not the first time he talked about it but wrapped in a rousing commemoration of those that were inspired to enlist and serve after 9 11. And he seemed to really became to the men and women of the military. I see what you see when you look out across our country. The words he used, see a rising tide of Political Violence and political extremism. Yes. You know, can you imagine if you are in our military now, you signed up, maybe you were motivated byinlaw ml. Maybe by things since then, because, of course, so many of our younger enlisted men have just toddlers at the time of 9 11 if alive at all. But imagine right now being somebody who is sworn to defend our country because of the values it stands for and seeing what is happening to our country . These are people who deploy abroad into the most dangerous combat situations in the world. Many lose their lives. Not most, but not an insignificant number to lose their lives protecting our democracy. And to imagine that your own brothers and sisters in this country would be the ones tearing down the democracy that you fight for. That you work for. That sometimes you, you know, shed blood for. Even lose your life for. Thats pretty its Pretty Amazing to think that we could be in this position. Now, i will say, there is no secret that there is some extremism in our military. And thats something that president bidens Secretary Of Defense tried to address. Something that needs addressed, but i think thats probably still a very small fraction of the men and women who do dedicate their lives to perfecting the very things that are under attack right now. Andrew, his first words about looking at the buildings and seeing them at the Gates Of Hell reminded me of your first remarks being in the car with your dad on that day. It is still a singular day in our countrys history. The other thing i think about, and, when i think about that, the president s remarks about his call to unity, with commemoration of john mccain, is, a friend of mine was supposed to be on the flight that landed, that crashed in pennsylvania, and just, on the later flight just by luck and his reaction was not, thank god, because he was a federal agent and had a gun. He was regretful that he was not on that plane thinking he could have made a difference. And there are different types of people in this country. But that was his reaction, was that he could have served. I mean, thats what we celebrate. Every year. Because they are different kind of people. The people that ran in to the towers. And we should always hear separated in that way. I want to share Recording Mary alluded to at the very beginning. New data, new information on a specific piece of what the department of Homeland Security and the fbi is dealing with right now today. When it comes to combat be terrorism, protecting all americans. Particularly alarming aspect of this domestic violent extremist threat that faces all of us. You might web back in february we kov ed it here. Two suspects with neonazi ties charged with planning to take down baltimores power grid. Federal prosecutors insist when the attackers were driven by this. Racially motivated hatred. And failed scheme would have cut power to hundreds of thousands of people in baltimore. City with majority black population. Thankfully those two suspects were not ultimately successful, but the story doesnt end here. Exhausted new analysis of federal data by politico revealed this. Utilities reported 60 incidents that characterized physical threats on major Grid Infrastructure in addition to three Cyber Attacks this year. More than double during the same period last year. Making matters yesterday, politico reports Communication Gaps between Law Enforcement and statened federal regulators left many officials largely in the dark that are figuratively about the extent of this threat. Claire, you were on homeland, right . I was. There was an effort to stay current. Right . When the threats shifted from planes and into bombs . The you know, to infrastructure to bridges, to foreign locations. The committees were briefed and the policy adjusted. This politico report includes arn anecdote about the executives, utilities learning about this on tv. Like Airline Executives learning about hijacked planes on tv. We seem to be nowhere connecting the dots to the domestic threat. The same article lays out there were times there was serious disruptions of power by violent acts, and the federal acts and the federal authorities never knew about it. It wasnt reported to them. So really what has to happen here, this is even a little more complicated than the efforts after 9 11 to get communication going between state and local and federal Law Enforcement about the threat of criminal activity around terrorism. This now is more complicated because youre dealing with all kinds of different utility companies. Small little coops, large grid power people. They need to Jennifer Granholm and the secretary of Homeland Security, they need to have a summit and they need to simplify the reporting. They need to make sure theres only one place that you have to make sure or at most two places that you have to report these kinds of events. Clearly grid is being targeted. And thats not going to end anytime soon. And if were going to stay ahead of it, its going to depend on communication. And right now the communications not there. So Robert Mueller has the distinction of being i think he was on the job two or three days before 9 11 happened. Appointed by president george w. Bush. He has the mission of changing the fbi not changing it, adapting it to the current threat. And the Mission Statement becomes connecting the dots. Theres the memo about the pilots. That becomes his mission. Director comey comes in and has to adapt. But the mission stays basically the same. Christopher wray is leading the fbi at a time when the threat environment is as dramatically different from those post9 11 years as at any other point. What is your sense of how he has transformed the bureau to deal with the threat . The question is how much of the Counterterrorism Work that the fbi is doing is focused on the domestic issue. Because counterterrorism, at least the last time that i checked, was the fbis top priority. It was the thing they were supposed to put the most time and attention to. With counterintelligence and espionage being the second. So for many, many years that part of the fbi, and andrew would know this better than i would, was focused mainly on sort of lone wolves and, you know, Foreign Terrorists who were trying to wreak havoc on the United States and attack things like planes. What does that look like now . How is that made up . How much of that is focused on foreigners who may attack the United States and how much of it is domestic . I think marys talked about this, that the domestic Counterterrorism Investigations are more complicated because of the Constitutional Rights that people have. Andrew, you were there for some of this period that i was describing. You want to weigh in on how the bureau has adapted and what limitations it faces . Sure. Well, Robert Mueller tells this famous story of going in to then president bush and saying this is what were doing to track who did this and bring them to justice. And the president said to him, thats not what i want to know. I want to know how youre going to prevent the next attack. That was really the Marching Order of really transforming the fbi. But to mikes point it was very focused on the foreign threat. Even when there were people in this country who could be inspired by that foreign threat it was very much looking outward. I do think there is much more attention now to domestic terrorism, but it also means thats where you have to put your best agents. For a while the best people and the most people were on the foreign side. Also you have to be rethinking who youre looking at. Many people say that one of the reasons that the fbi and other agencies really dropped the ball on january 6th and were very slow to react, because they werent thinking and correctly evaluating the problem of the proud boys and the oath keepers, the internal Text Messages and communications. And the Secret Service are an example of that. These were white groups where they have not been traditionally viewed as posing the same kind of threat. And i think that was obviously wrong. I think there was a tinge of racism in that. And certainly comparing it to how they responded to antifa. And i think the fbi needs to and thats evolved. I would say chris wray still has a lot more work to do. You know, he still has not actually given a very public candid account of what exactly happened on the on january 6th and the intelligence failures and the inaction with respect to the intelligence they did have. And so its very hard to move forward without that kind of very public accounting, which i think would have happened under certainly under Robert Mueller. He sort of beat that into us, of being super candid about failures and how were going to deal with them going forward. Mary, the dots between waco and Oklahoma City are undeniable. Timothy mcveigh is inspired and agitated and a grievance is waco. Merrick garland happens to be one of the people who prosecuted Oklahoma City. Are those things talked about . Are there lessons from those domestic terror attacks that are sort of in the bloodstream and around the water cooler . Or is that viewed as ancient history . So i think that the current moment has really brought a lot more attention and interest to tracing the roots of the current problem. And its not brand new, as weve said before. These ideologies have existed throughout history. But weve also seen them really, you know, burst to the fore and be the reason for attacks like the attack in Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City bombing killing 165 people including so many children. Right . That until 9 11 was the most significant Terrorist Attack in the United States and still is the most significant domestic Terrorist Attack. And i use those quotes because of course, you know, 9 11 happened in the United States domestically but was done by Foreign Terrorists. So i think that theres been a lot of attention now focused on where did this sort of White Power Movement start. And again, it starts even earlier than that. And i think i probably mentioned kathleen ballous book in the past tracing from postvietnam up through Oklahoma City. And now we can trace it up through now. I think people are starting to talk about it but not enough. Well, well keep talking about it here with all of your expertise and years of insight and experience. Mary mccord and andrew weissmann, thank you so much. Claire mccaskill and mike schmidt, thank you for spending the whole hour with us. Mary and andrew have another installment, a new episode of their fantastic podcast out. The latest episode of Prosecuting Donald Trump takes them to georgetown law on the big week we just had in georgia. Up next, turning to the trump investigations. Remember the postelection long shot lawsuit out of texas . That one that the expresident was rallying support for and promised would be, quote, the big one at the Supreme Court . Well look at why that scheme never really got much of a look from federal prosecutors. All those stories and more when deadline white house returns after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Ouse returns after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Oh, oh, oh. Ill be the judge of that. Oh, thats nice. Oh searchable, verified reviews. Thats better than the ham, and ive never said that. Booking. Com booking. Yeah are you guys watching . 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It makes you go through your days with energy, and youre not tired anymore, and your anxiety, everything is gone. Its definitely worth trying. It is an amazing product. It. These last two years have illustrated. The indictments by special counsel jack smith and Fulton County District Attorney fani willis exposed how the effort to overturn the 2020 president ial election was not at all some Spur Of The Moment idea. It was a premeditated criminal conspiracy. It involved many, many people and many, many steps. Willis, who charged 18 others along with the expresident , described the efforts in georgia as a, quote, criminal enterprise. Even though both indictments were stuffed to the gills with stories of what the expresident and his allies did to our democracy, according to our friend and Voting Rights attorney mark elias, one more aspect of the attempted coup has gone missing. He writes this. Even after reading these two indictments, i realized something was still missing. Trumps audacious effort to enlist the United States Supreme Court in throwing out the Election Results in four key battleground states. At the time trump called the case, quote, the big one. If successful this one lawsuit would have disenfranchised more than 20 million voters across georgia, michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin and changed the results of the election. Now, if this part is fuzzy in your memory, it was originally filed by the Attorney General Of Texas and it soon garnered the support of 17 other states and more than 100 sitting republican members of congress. However, the Supreme Court, even with its conservative majority, tossed out the case, saying the state of texas had no standing to bring it. Elias continues, other than the events that took place on January 6th The Texas Case was the most profoundly antidemocratic act in the postelection period. The use of State Resources and official imprimatur to traffic in false information and overturn an election was a precursor to the fake elector schemes and Jeffrey Clarks attempt to use Government Resources to overturn georgias Election Results. Elias concludes that maybe the indictments did not include this texas lawsuit because they already had enough to tell the narrative without it. But his point is one that we should not brush aside, especially with the 2024 Campaign Season inching closer every day. Its crucial not to forget the full scope of what they had in mind for the coup. The full scope of the antidemocratic forces that trump sought to bring to bear to undo the will of the American People. Its where we start the hour. Voting rights attorney mark elias the founder of the site Democracy Docket and auth ort of the piece we just read from is here with us. Also joining Us Princeton University professor and distinguished political scholar eddie glaude is back. And former assistant u. S. Attorney and president of the Leadership Conference on civil and human rights, maya wileys back with us. Mark, its a fabulous piece, perfectly argued, but also sort of a note to all of us who talk about the coup, even when we think were talking about it in its entirety this is one of the foundational pieces of it. Absolutely. You know, i realized that as we read the indictments we get one picture of what happened. When we talk about the fact that there were 64 or 65 lawsuits that donald trump and his allies lost, we get sort of a different picture, but whats really at the centerpiece of this scheme was an effort to throw out the Election Results of four states. And that scheme used State Resources. Thats what made it different than the other the other lawsuits. This was a case using taxpayer resources, using the official seal, using official resources, official personnel to try to throw out the Election Results of four other states. And nicolle, this is really critical. This lawsuit was the first organizing effort for donald trump for what happened in the capitol on january 6th. Why do i say that . Because when this before this lawsuit was filed, you know, donald trump and his, you know, ragtag band of Misfit Lawyers were out there losing lawsuits. When this lawsuit was filed, all of a sudden republican officials needed to put their cards on the table. And 126 republican members of congress joined this lawsuit. Which meant if youre donald trump sitting in the white house planning out what is to come on january 6th you know youre starting with 126 members of the house. You know youre starting with 127 or 18 attorneys general and some governors. And that really is what coalesced the official Republican Party support for what eventually became the most tragic day in American Democracy. Marc, theres a piece of it that i cant get over, and i mention it here all the time, that maybe your crystallization can shed light on this. The republicans who signed on the lawsuit is bogus and its b. S. , but its predicated on something trump starts saying in the summer about the election being rigged because mailin voting was going to be permitted in the heat of a pandemic. All of the republican every single republican Member Of Congress who signed on to it thought the votes and the ballots were legitimate enough to believe in the sanctity of their elections. How come they were never confronted with exactly how they thought the ballots had been corrupted just on the president ial line . Again, i think this is really, really critical because i think it goes to why this case was so important. Because it is the first time that you have republican members of congress from these states even, from the four states that theyre trying to throw out the election from, wisconsin, pennsylvania, georgia. You have republican members of congress signing on to a brief basically saying the ballots that elected them were fraudulent. And that is a very, very important milestone to understand what happens to the Republican Party when you get into january 6th. And just, you know, all my viewers vote. But its the same ballot. Right . You go into the booth and the same piece of paper is the same ballot. I want to deal with one other thing with you, marc, and thats premeditation. I thought one of the most dramatic exhibits that the January 6th Select Committee had was an email from tom fitton, sort of rightwing legal agitator, that just bumped the timeline back to july of 2020 talking about in writing in emails to the white house about when they would contest the sanctity of the vote. Its not even when the polls showed that hell likely lose. Its back in july. And then heres trump in september talking about the urgency of filling the Supreme Court vacancy. I think this will end up in the Supreme Court, and i think its very important that we have nine justices. I think its better if you go before the election because i think this scam that the democrats are pulling, its a scam, the scam will be before the United States Supreme Court. And i think having a 44 situation is not a good situation if you get that. I dont know that youd get that. I think it should be 80 or 90. But just in case it would be more political than it should be. I think its very important to have a ninth justice. So in September Donald trump is planning on taking his defeat to the Supreme Court. And that is the sort of predication for confirming the ninth justice. People forget but in december of 2016, this is after donald trump won the election, he was saying that there was voter fraud. He said that the entire state of california results were the result of like a million illegal ballots. He appointed a Voter Fraud Commission in 2017 to look into it. At the time everyone just dismissed this as kind of like a weird thing that donald trump was somehow looking into voter fraud in an election that had put him in office. But this has been a persistent theme of his pathology, which is that he always wants to question the outcome of elections because hes never sure when hes going to need it. And he knew that having lost the popular vote in 2016, he was very sensitive about that, which is why he makes these ridiculous claims in 2016, 2017, when you get to 2020 he is questioning the balloting and questioning the voting and questioning everything about the election because he knows he is likely to lose the popular vote again and hes likely to lose overall, and he always wanted to keep optionality. What he needed after the election was a way to crystallize that into institutional support. Not the support of Sidney Powell but institutional support. And thats what this texas case was. Marc, i have to were going to have some great new reporting on ginni thomas later in the hour, but i have to ask you about ginni thomas in the way that she was functioning as a director of State Legislator Conduct and Donald Trumps constant talking in public and private about his election ending up in the Supreme Court. We have many Unanswered Questions about the extent of her role in helping to carry out and fan the flames of the coup. But i think the, you know, sort of 64 million one will be the conversations between her and the person she calls her best friend, sitting Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomas. Yeah, look, there was no way for donald trump to cheat without the cooperation of the courts. Thats one of the things we know from the texas lawsuit, from the georgia lawsuit, all lawsuits. Inevitably he was going to need to get through the hurdle of democracy. And eventually as he gave away in that clip you showed, that meant getting through the Supreme Court. And why a Supreme Court justices wife is mixed up with these groups that are targeting Voter Suppression and targeting antiprogressive policies is beyond me. But it shows why trump and his supporters were focused on State Legislatures taking power and the courts blessing State Legislatures taking power. Maya, i want to come back to this premeditation on the plot to overturn the election. It seems that the more we learn about the investigations into the coup, the Congressional One was the most public, the federal investigations, the criminal investigations are by design opaque to protect the defendants rights. But the new information all points to a longer period of time in which the coup was premeditated. None of the new information is exculpatory. It is as tim heaphy said, who investigated the attack on january 6th without access to some of the people jack smith has access to, that he didnt believe any of the new information or additional witnesses would help trump. What is your sense of what Jack Smith May have amassed in his indictment of donald trump as he prepares to go to trial in march for that . Well, we have to assume that theres a lot more evidence than we know because by definition thats what happens in a criminal investigation. Even while the committee, the january 6th committee did yeomans work in pulling together a vast amount and vast array of evidence, of witnesses, of testimony and we know that thats certainly part of what the Special Prosecutor was able to draw from to bring charges so quickly after taking up his role. I think this is the Central Point here. And mark made it as well. Is you know, donald trump has long hedged his bets to use lies to advance his own political career. And in hedging the bet of i dont know whether im going to win or lose, so im going to start putting it out here and planning for making sure im in the best possible position to say i didnt, thats not new behavior, to marcs point. But we also know that he has sufficient has amassed sufficient support from voters, not a majority of voters as we know, but enough that he was able to solidify a lot of people participating in this with him. Thats what the evidence is so clearly showing and pointing us to. And i think theres a reason that jack smith has focused like a laser on donald trump himself, is because it enables to create the right story about just how much this all centers not just around donald trump being in office but it centers around donald trump as the primary conspirator. I think that is precisely right, eddie. And, and his enablers were all out in public. His enablers, who were every Single Member of congress who signed on to the lawsuit was signing on to a lawsuit alleging fraud on the very pieces of paper that made them members of congress. I mean, there are some things that the republicans do that are dangerous and scary. There are some that are so bleeping stupid i cant find the right words to bring them to the viewers. This is one of them. Theyre saying there was fraud only in the president ial i mean, it is the mindboggling piece of that bond between the trump base and the trump enablers. Right. And you know, what was so important about marcs piece, at least to me, nicolle, everything you guys have just said, is that he expands the narrative arc. Of course this has legal implications. What does it mean to tell the story in the indictment that goes back to the Supreme Court case . But it also expands the narrative arc of the trouble we face as a democracy, that oftentimes we focus on the central conspirators. Maya rightly described trump. Right . And oftentimes we do that without bringing into focus not only his allies but those who are similarly committed to undermining democracy. 126 congresspersons doing something that you rightly describe as not too bright, but they are also committed to undermining democracy, bringing the court into view. So the ways in which the institutions have been corrupted by this process, marc brings it into view so when we think about this not just in terms of the court cases but in terms of the very threat that we face as a democracy, its not just simply the executive branch. Right . Its all of these other elements that we have to that has to come into view. If were going to really get at the heart of the rot. You know, marc, i want to ask you to pull the thread forward and ask you what you think it means he will do next time when it comes to the Supreme Court because trump doesnt come up with new plays but he does sort of innovate the old plays and they become more and more audacious. So im really worried. Im really worried. I mean, look what donald trump and his allies were willing to do to keep him in power. Now project forward to 2024, when he believes that his only chance to maintain freedom, to not be a convicted felon, to not potentially face prison is to regain the white house and pardon himself or whatever. And look at who those 126 members are. You know, it was 126 in december. By the time you got to by the time you got to the evening of january 6th, he got more than 140 votes in the house. Look at the House Of Representatives today. He would get probably 200 members of the republican conference today. Nicolle, im worried because its getting worse. Hes gotten more desperate. The Republican Party has become more antidemocracy. Our systems of elections have become weakened from the battering that they have taken from republican Election Deniers and election subverters. And so as we move towards elections in 2024, were all going to have to do more to lift up and strengthen the people who run our elections, our election laws, our Election Systems because i fear that donald trump has more in store. I think it turns on what you just articulated too. The things he was willing to do to stay powerful. Right . Thats what we are mining for clues. But thats not apples and apples. These are the things what hes going to do to our country next are the things that he has to do to stay free. And freedom is much more important to him than running the country. I think you always have your eye on the things we should be looking at, marc elias. Thank you for being here and keeping our eyes on it as well. Eddie and maya stick around with us for the hour. Ahead, the inside story of how ginni thomas, as weve been discussing, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomas, used a trove of dark money from billionaire conservative donors to found a movement that has radically reshaped American Politics and our system of justice. We will have that brand new reporting coming up in the broadcast. Plus new details on the maralago i. T. Worker who could very well testify against his still current boss in the classified documents case. New york times on just how much pressure he was under as the feds were getting closer. Also under pressure former white house Chief Of Staff mark meadows. Why his legal team is scrambling today. Well tell you about it. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Tech cracked windshield on your new car . Bring it to safelite. My customer was enjoying her new car, when her windshield cracked. 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A bombshell new report from an old friend of ours whos joining us in a minute details how ginni thomas took advantage of and ultimately benefited from a landmark 2010 Supreme Court ruling in which her husband, Justice Clarence thomas, helped upend nearly a century of Campaign Spending restrictions. Politicos Heidi Przybilla reports that in the months before the 2010 Citizens United ruling that would soon permit a flow of anonymous donor money to nonprofit groups ginni thomas, along with Conservative Activist Leonard Leo and a half a milliondollar harlan crow donation, laid the groundwork for such a nonprofit. And just seven days before the Supreme Court ruling their application submitted by wouldbe 2020 coup attorney Kalita Mitchell was approved. All of it setting up a billiondollar force that has helped remaker the judiciary and overturn longstanding Legal Precedents on abortion, Affirmative Action and many other issues. Lets bring in politico Investigative Correspondent our good friend Heidi Przybilla on her incredible reporting. Eddie and maya are with us. Heidi, this is so important and so smart to broaden the lens and slide back the timeline as we were just talking about in the context of the 2020 election. Take us through your reporting and what you discovered. Sure. Nicolle, we have long known that leonard leo is the man behind the conservative dark money movement. Whats lesser known is that there was also a plan back just before Citizens United for him to be the conduit for ginni thomas to become a movement leader. Now, that blew up pretty quickly due to a call she made to anita hill, which is a whole other story. But when it did blow up, nicolle, there was a plan b. And thats what people dont know and havent known until our reporting, is that they quickly pivoted. That plan was to use one of leos outside dark money groups, a different one that he reactivated almost just coinciding with ginni thomass failed experiment with him and that that group was used to pay ginni thomas. We know that from the posts previous reporting. What i uncovered is that began almost exactly when their own experiment blew up. And whats very important to understand here, nicolle, and what they refuse to answer to me in my reporting was whether those payments ever stopped. How much she was paid and what she was paid to do because theres all kinds of issues here, right . Which is positioning herself to benefit potentially from one of her husbands forthcoming rulings. Then theres questions about the payments, what she was doing. And this nonprofit that was paying her is a charitable group. Now, its different from the group that she was trying to start herself. So theres very strict irs rules here around political activity. You can do some limited lobbying, but youre supposed to be primarily charitable in nature, nicolle. Heidi, does your reporting recast thomass concurrence in dobbs where he puts Marriage Equality back on the table . We did go through a number of the briefs, nicolle, to kind of line up what this group that was filing numerous Amicus Briefs before her husbands court were adopted, that language was picked up in a number of the briefs. In fact, to reprise some of the actors from 2020 as well, heres another one for you, john eastman, also a former Thomas Law Clerk, who filed one of the initial briefs on obamacare trying to roll back the individual mandate. Some of that language was adopted. Now, that failed before the court. But interestingly, its just one of a number of examples where thomas did and others adapt the language that j. E. P. , this group was advocating for. Another one was the Hobby Lobby Decision where thomas helped write the majority opinion. Now, not to say that there werent other groups making similar arguments, but here we have no visibility into what ginni thomass role was in this group that was the primary vehicle for leonard leos dark Money Network to advocate before the court and its sister organization, the judicial crisis network, which is run also by a former Thomas Law Clerk who also was a director on this judicial Education Project Group that was paying ginni thomas. So in this case, nicolle, were not just talking about a Billionaire Benefactor giving lavish trips to the justices, but were talking about the biggest conservative legal lobbying operation before the Supreme Court thats filing briefs before Justice Thomas and the rest of the court and payments to a wife whose husband sits on that court. Notably, i tried over several weeks to give them the opportunity to tell me what the payments were for, when they started, when they stopped, and i was never given an answer on that. I was given a firm no comment. Its unbelievable. I want to put up the timeline, heidi, and i want you to take us through what you report and some of the milestones. You start with sort of oral arguments concluding in Citizens United. We have actually, i dont have it on the screen but let me just go through it. Cleta mitchell filing the application for ginni thomass liberty central. The same year the end of the year she signs paperwork to incorporate in virginia. Then in january, so 21 days later the Supreme Court hands down Citizens United. 21 days after ginni thomas incorporates. In November Thomas steps away from her role there. This is when things seem to get even more opaque. Take us through whats happening from that moment to the present in terms of the money, what we understand on the money piece, how much moneys flowing through these organizations, the dark money funds. Tens of millions now. Look, it started with a small debit to the judicial Education Project in 2010. The amounts that we lined up were very similar between what she had earned at her nonprofit, liberty central, which is about 120 grand a year. Those amounts were eventually debited into the judicial Education Project account. We know she was also paid a similar amount from Kellyanne Conway because of those leaked documents that the Washington Post had gotten her hands on, their hands on. So what this tells you is basically when they experienced all of this blowback from ginni thomas being the wife of a Supreme Court justice and trying to start her own political advocacy, that that didnt go away. It just moved under wraps. I talked with folks who were there at the inception of this. They said this was always the plan, for leonard to be the conduit of her advocacy, and that she continued to be a very popular figure within these circles. It wasnt clear exactly what her role was other than that she had this consulting company, and weve also tried for years to find out exactly who all of those clients were. But in this Case Congress may look into this as part of their inquiry, nicolle, into all of the money that was flowing to the thomases, not just from gifts but in this case here from income. Because if you look at the Disclosure Filings that weve had over the years from Justice Thomas, its really pretty opaque. It just lists liberty consulting. And we know shes been in this position pretty much since that original ill call it plan a blew apart. Again, this is all new revelations that there was even a plan b here for leonard to continue to send money to her. And again, the only actual reits we have, the only actual evidence we have are those documents that were uncovered from Kellyanne Conway being told to, you know, pay ginni with no mention of ginni. Of course, so this is raising all kinds of questions about how much shes been given. And secondly about nonprofit tax laws being potentially abused here, nicolle, because my prior reports have been about leonard leo using nonprofit tax laws for potential selfenrichment of 43 million flowing to his forprofit company in the two years since he joined that company. We know now that the d. C. Attorney general is investigating that issue as a result, and theres this whole other thicket here of irs rules, whats permissible, whats not, perhaps not coincidentally, nicolle, yes, you mentioned cleta mitchell. And this also syncs up with cleta mitchells Previous Campaign to try to really gut the irs because at the time she was saying that they were unfairly targeting groups like ginni thomass, like the Tea Party Groups at the time that all sprung up after Citizens United to try and disassemble president obamas agenda. Its unbelievable. Ive got all the cliches running through my brain about Power Corrupts, absolute Power Corrupts absolutely. But this is so next level i dont have one for this. Heidi, its really important reporting. Were so grateful to get to talk to you about it. And were grateful that youre on this beat. We look forward to your next scoop. Thank you, my friend. When we come back, new reporting on the maralago i. T. Worker swept up in the classified documents investigation. Plus a desperate move by the disgraced expresident today in the other federal case against him. Those stories next. Him. Those stories next shake some hands. Do not forget to laugh. [laughing] book a getawayfromwork trip. Use onekeycash. Order some sides. Do not disturb. Join one key to earn and use rewards across expedia, hotels. Com, and vrbo. When my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. Breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flareups. 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Mr. Tavares, who ran maralagos Technology Department from a cramped work space in the basement of the sprawling florida property, confided in an office mate that another colleague had just asked him at trumps request to delete the footage the investigators were seeking. When he was summoned before a grand jury this spring mr. Taveras did not fully recount the incident. Only after prosecutors subsequently threatened to charge him for failing to tell all that he knew did mr. Taveras shift course to become a potentially important witness in the case. This account of mr. Taverass turnabout reveals new details of the critical if at first reluctant role he played in helping investigators develop evidence that mr. Trump and two aides allegedly plotted to destroy Security Footage showing boxes of classified materials being shuttled in and out of a storage room at maralago. Were back with eddie and maya. And back with us at the table, New York Times mike schmidt. The times reporting makes clear how important taveras is, mike. Walt nauta is the one that becomes fascinating to me. Its clear they knew from the footage exactly what had happened. And once taveras tells them about trump wanting to delete all of that footage he seems to instantly implicate his coconspirators. But it seems that as far as we know the government doesnt have any breakthroughs with nauta or the others even after they gained his cooperation. I think the most interesting part of this story or one of it is actually buried toward the end, where they talk about, and this has been reported but its still not answered. Was the pool drained to destroy the servers. Because the servers why moved by one of the trump org folks after the flood to ensure that they wouldnt be destroyed. And the story says, as my colleagues report, that its still unclear why the pool was drained and had it been drained to destroy these things. And im not sure how legally that changes it, but its just an extraordinary fact or question. That these individuals who were trying to protect this stuff went to such Great Lengths that they drained a pool to destroy computers . Well, im thinking of something that Chuck Rosenberg said many years ago when he talked about just criminals in general, that theyre not all smart, right . Some criminals are very, very smart ike in The Thomas Crown Affair but the majority of them not so much so. And something your colleague glenn thrush has pointed out is theyre down an alleyway making these plans and having these conversations and its all captured on footage. And the footage makes its first appearance in the original request that goes before the judge. They have these Guys On Camera at a pretty early stage. Yeah, and look, a lot of what we know about trump and january 6th is based on things he did or said publicly. There was never trump never seemed particularly concerned about trying to hide his behavior when he was in office certainly and in the maralago case after he left. I cant tell you how many times in the first few years of the Trump Administration when we were trying to understand how he was trying to get control of the Justice Department and to use it and weaponize it and try to block it from investigating him that we went out and we would do this reporting to find out what he said Behind Closed Doors but oh, wow, thats really interesting, only to then quickly see that he had said it publicly. Tweeted it. Maya, it is an interesting thing about trumps brazenness. But i think what this reporting points out is that some of these individuals stared into the eyes of the fbi investigator asking them the questions and after first lying changed their mind and told the truth. And that might be that might be sort of the crack in the facade that helps doj bring such a strong case in the maralago instance. Well, and i would say that just based on the indictment there is a very strong case here including the fact that donald trump was required by law to turn the records back over in the first place. I mean, the obstruction of course is a very serious charge. And i think what we know is by the way, as a matter of law you dont have to have completed the act. I mean, the mere attempt to obstruct is enough. And i think were seeing in this a pattern that i think weve seen in a lot of instances in which donald trump gets into legal trouble, which is that he has a lot of influence, it appears, over those who work for him including his offer or finding ways to make sure their legal fees are paid or that theyre represented by attorneys who are frankly very committed to success for donald trump. And what were seeing here is getting caught dead to rights with some evidence against you of lying under oath to Law Enforcement is its own separate crime. And so when youre faced with doing the crime and doing the time, in this instance we see Law Enforcement working in the way its intended, which is to say we can come after you on this unless you cooperate on something else. We know that theres a lot of loyalty to donald trump. We saw it with his cfo in his organization who sat in Rikers Island rather than cooperate in that case. So theres a pattern here for sure. But i will just say this. Donald trumps in legal trouble whether or not we understand why they emptied that pool or not. Eddie, the sort of chain of events is similar to Cassidy Hutchinson. Right . She goes into the January 6th Select Committee with a trumpappoint, trumpfunded lawyer and tells part of what she saw. She changes lawyers and blows their case wide open. Mr. Taveras goes into the fbi and i think lies. Thats what the times is reporting. He changes lawyers and cracks that case open. It is it just brings me back to something Chris Christie said about trump, that he lays awake at night fearing that moment that people like Cassidy Hutchinson had, people like mr. Taveras had, happening over and over again in the four cases he now faces. Yeah. And that connects it back to something marc elias said in the first segment, right . That his fear of loss of freedom will make him desperate to do anything. I think youre right. And you know, to connect the Cassidy Hutchins shift hutchinson shift with taveras is really important. The lawyers are acting in Donald Trumps interest. Cant we infer that from these two . And if we can then we need to understand that something is really, really it doesnt really pass the smell test here when it comes to trumps lawyers representing all of these folk and us getting at the truth of what he did. Right. And its another consistent theme of the trump story since the very beginning. All right. I want all of you to stick around a little bit longer. After the break ill tell you about a desperate move by the disgraced expresident in another one of these cases. Well bring that to you next. Att josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. Switch now and theyll give you Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv, on them. hero fan this plan is amazing josh allen another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. fan 1 that was josh allen. fan 2 mmhm. vo Football Season is here. Get Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free 5g phone. Only on verizon. I have moderate to severe Crohns Disease. Now, theres skyrizi. Things are looking up ive got symptom relief control of my crohns means everything to me. 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Lawyers for former President Trump on monday asked the federal judge overseeing his looming trial on charges of trying to overturn the 2020 election to recuse herself, claiming that she has shown a bias against trump in public statements made from the bench in other cases. This is and there may be a legal piece that im missing. But since everyone assures me that trump is simply feuding in the Public Relations space, in the Public Relations space hes throwing all in with the violent insurrectionists it would appear. Yeah. I mean, look, whats so obvious about this from what little i have read and based on the statements i think this judge did make, which said nothing about donald trump, by the way, or whether or not he should be imprisoned or convicted of anything prison or convicted of anything is simply a continuation of a delay, deny, distract sort of tactics. Not unlawful. He has every right, if the legal team thinks that a judges bias for anybody before the judge to say, this is not going to be fair. This judge, based on the statements i have seen, did not say anything biased against donald trump. You know . And, frankly, i think going back to something that eddie said earlier in terms of the importance of our institutions, our democratic institutions, that includes the bench and our federal judges, that they are obligated to recuse themselves if theyre biased, but in this case, theres no bias, and it just becomes another way of undermining any notion that our system is independent and can behave independently and without partisan politics in mind. The person doing the harm here is an donald trump well, and, the federal judges have had to deal with the defendants from the january 6th case, really, long before the congressional investigation existed. I want to read some of what some of the federal judges have had to say, in june, before censoring sentencing a california men, rodriguez, using a taser against the dc police, judge amy jackson declared that mr. Rodriguez had been radicalized by what she called mr. Trumps, quote, irresponsible and knowingly false claims that the election was stolen. Also reporting in November Of 2020 when, judge mehta told judge lolos , quote, he had been fed falsehoods about the election about people who had never been held accountable. A lot of judges have had to come facetoface with the evidence of cases brought by the Justice Department, the insurrectionist have had to do with the facts as they are, including judge judkins. I think that the move in this area that we were expecting was not necessarily trump moving against the job of the judge, although, that is expected in terms of what he can throw against the wall, but was the government was jack smiths office going to try to do that to judge gannon in florida, so judge gannon in florida, who has the documents case, and widely criticized for how she ruled on the original search warrant of maralago in 2022, and was the government going to take off is what i think the legal experts would say is a fairly risky move of trying to force her to recuse herself . Shes someone who does not have a lot of experience it on the federal bench. Thats not a reason for her to be recused, but someone who drew a lot of criticism, including from conservative judges, in terms of how she handled the search warrant, and how favorable she was to trump. So, when i saw a move to recuse the judge, i thought, oh, wow, but its just donald trump. I think what mike just articulated is the audacity gap. Right . The side that has just cause to call for the recusal of a judge hasnt, and likely wont, for all the reasons mike articulated. I think mike has talked about this before. You dont want to anger someone who can have control over your fate, but the side that has none of the facts on his side is attacking a judge who has all of the facts on hers. You need to copyright that phrase. Yeah. Thats perfect. That is perfect. You know, and just thinking about heidis reporting in politico, is is what they do. The irs tries to hold them accountable, then you say, the irs is signaling them out. Mike meadows is shaking in his boots. This is a hail mary pass, but this is not a hail mary catch of franco harris. Im just dating myself. He is scared, shaking in his boots, and this is a desperate play. Meyer, what is the process, just for nonlawyers here what will come of this request to get judge judkins to recuse herself . I would guess very little, but whats really clear here is and thats one of the reasons that jack smith and his team didnt seek recusal its really hard to get, and what happens is, you know, we do have to demonstrate theres a financial conflict, back to the point about ginni thomas, or bias. Being on on a case, as we saw from judge cannon, is in the same thing as bias, although, i would say, this evidence of bias in that wrong opinion, but it is dangerous, and in this case, its not really much they can do about it unless it plays itself out and they get an appeal, but i think the point is i think it is a hail mary, except there aint a lot of religion in it or make you know, mike, its interesting. Trumps survival instinct people have called the reptilian does sort of line up with the facts, in that this is the case that likely reasons the latest of his greatest threat to him, that can has. Probably the most likelihood of happening before the election. And the one that really cuts at the heart of the whole trump story not to diminish the documents investigation that certainly raises questions about how he would handle National Security secrets as president but the whole trump story is really the january 6th story, the way that january 6th is sort of this culminating event that takes everything of the previous four years, basically sort of builds on itself, it all plays out in a way that, you know, was obviously devastating in a lot of different ways. Tells us every thing we need to know about him. Correct. So, and i think, you know, it is really hard to predict the future. You have all of these different cases, but just from sort of looking from the sidelines, it does seem like this is the most likely one to happen. All right. Eddie glove, mike reilly, mike schmidt, thank you so much for spending the hour for us. A quick break and well be right back. So caramel swirl is always there for the taking. Wake up, gotta go cmon, cmon. Gracie, cmon. Lets go guys, cmon mom, cmon mia [ engine revving ] my favorite color is. Because, its like a family thing [ engine revving ] made it mom leave running behind, behind. The new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. Does life beautifully. Why didnt we do this last year . Before you were preventing migraine with qulipta® . Remember the pain . Cancelled plans . The worry . That was then. And look at me now. Youll never truly forget migraine. But qulipta® reduces attacks, making zeromigraine days possible. Its the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. To help give you that forgetyouget migraine feeling. Dont take if allergic to qulipta®. Most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Qulipta®. The forgetyouget migraine medicine™. Thank you so much. During these two lectionary times, the beat with ari melber starts right now high, ari. Hi, nicole. Hello, im ari melber. Welcome, and, to the new week. A lot of the elements in Clarence Thomas end billionaire scandal. The Vice President harris, making use over this weekend. We have this story by the end of the hour when we will actually be joint by the artist, comment, who is with harris on saturday. Out top stories the loss for a key trump Legal Defense strategy in georgia, where Donald Trumps former Chief Of Staff led an effort to remove his case out of the georgia courts, and the lost. A federal judge, denying the bid to take that trial to federal court. He thought his odds were better. The loss for mr. Mike meadows, now defendant, means he will face trial in georgia. Its also bad news