environment that prosecutors handling cases involving the ex-president are facing right now. in the federal indictment of a man who allegedly made let's to fulton county district attorney fani wli and fulton county sheriff patrick la bat. arthur ray hanson ii was charged on monday for making threats to willis and la bat back in august, days before willis charged trump and 18 others in a sweeping rico case alleging a, quote, criminal enterprise that sought to overturn the r "new york times" reports this, quote, in a voicemail message for sheriff labatt mr. hanson threatened the sheriff to not take a mugshot of,quote, my president, donald trump, that's according to the indictment. i'm warning you right now adding that t sheriff to,quote, get hurt real ba he also left aoicemail message for ms. willis in which he threatened her and referred to the georgia case. ing to your car at night, when you're going into your house. tch everywhere that you're going mr. hanson said according to court records. quote, when you charge trump on that fourth indictment, anytime you are alone be looking over your shoulder. willis and labat were undeterred, trump was charged, fingerprinted, booked and he had his mugshot taken but the threats have not receded. take a listen to what willis told the fulton county board of commissioners earlier this month. >> and i want to talk about threats, okay? so you all don't get to hear all of them, unfortunately i have now damaged probably some of your customer service personnel who does get to hear a fraction of them because people are threatening me in that way, but i have in the last probably two months over 150 threats that have come into the office. they come in through the customer service line, they come in through my phone line, they come into the magistrate court, they come in through written letter, they come in through text messages. the demands that i am putting on my staff right now to try to track down and investigate the threats but also keep me alive, which has become a real concern for me, i have got to have people that are loyal to me and that my life means something to. >> it's happening all day, every day in this country. just one prosecutor there talking about 150 threats in about eight weeks during which the fulton county case along with jack smith's two federal cases against donald trump have been proceeding. all the while the ex-president has reacted to every twist and turn in all those cases with a steady, undiminished stream of violent rhetoric directed at the prosecutors, at the witnesses, at the judges, at the court staff. you name it. everyone involved. and that conduct keeps happening despite a gag order put back in place by judge chutkan. trump today slamming jack smith and fani willis as, quote, radical left thugs. incessant violent rhetoric of one donald trump and his supporters posing a stress test for our very system of justice is where we begin today with some of our favorite experts and friends. former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi frank is here plus tim hafey is back and the former chairman of the rnc michael steele is here. michael steele, i'm going to start with you today. this ushering in of a permission structure for political violence is something that every elected republican in washington just about has been complicit in by not condemning the very first invocations of violence and enthusiasm for violence that trump uttered as a candidate in 2015 and 2016. i know that's ancient history but you know from the violence that has occurred that the permission structure and the activating to go to washington on january 6, it happens in realtime. the threats against judge chutkan for which there was an arrest earlier this fall and in this case for da fani willis and sheriff labat they're ongoing, they're on trump's social media feed and trump's podiums at his events in realtime. the environment could improve at any moment should republicans choose to improve it and they don't. why? >> because they like it. they're okay with it. it fuels the energy around the base that, you know, allows them to, you know, put $100 every month on their credit card, that will be there when it's time to turn out the vote. this is not about the rule of law and the structures of institutions like the department of justice or even our local prosecutors and police departments. this is about how we politicize everything in order to get what we want. how we dehumanize individuals and threaten them to get what we want because i'm aggrieved, input upon, i'm disappointed, i'm made, i'm angry. and when the political leadership stokes those flames, this is what you get, the random calls, the 150 calls into the prosecutor's office saying you don't look over your shoulder because there is no one to say don't do that. there are consequences for that behavior. there are political and legal consequences for that behavior. so even when the legal system in the case of ms. willis responds and brings charges, there's political silence. there's -- you would think that would give these so-called leaders cover to then stand up and go, oh, yeah, no, we don't want to do that. we shouldn't be threatening our prosecutors. because the flip side of this coin is it comes for you, too, at some point. >> right. >> and you somehow think that because you're standing so close to the disease that you're not going to catch it. well, you will. you know, it's going to come for you, too. and so it's not surprising to see where we are right now, nicolle, with this, that our prosecutors, our election officials, our law enforcement officials are on their own when it comes to their -- to their protection and to their ability to do their jobs because at least in one party that party has put a target on their backs. >> you know, frank, i know that you've sort of helped educate and illuminate how you protect people targeted by someone with a size megaphone that trump has and it's about, i guess, staying left of boom, right, you try to stay ahead of the threat before they're actualized, but in a domestic context that hasn't worked. i mean, january 6 happens just by chatter and threats and very public incitement of an insurrection, of exactly what happens. we live in a post-january 6 world and it feels like we haven't made any adjustments or calibrations. >> yeah, this is worth noting because, look, despite the message and the message is clear that if you are behind these threats 150 at least just for fani willis, you're going to jail. the federal government is going to put its force behind that investigation, as they did with the woman in texas who left threatening voice mails for judge chutkan, as they did when the fbi attempted to arrest the man in provo, utah, who threatened prosecutors and president joe biden and was forced to use deadly force when he reportedly swung a weapon toward the arresting agents. now as has been done with the man in alabama. this man in alabama and 150 other people apparently have said, yeah, that's okay. i get the fbi is taking me away in handcuffs, but i'm going to do it anyway. so we have to ask ourselves why. i say this is a deep, deep level of radicalization. this is the kind of radicalization that you get when people have a devout religious fervor that they're willing to martyr themselves for, now this has turned on its side and it's turned onto our justice system and the rule of law. there's nothing about valid legal, illegal threats, i should say, unlawful threats, interstate communication of a threat that is free speech. so i don't want to hear it from anyone who is saying, you know, they're arresting people for free speech. they're arresting people because a prosecutor has looked at the case and says this matches the statutory elements of interstate communication of a threat. now, we will figure that out in court, but this isn't looking good based on just what we know from this case. so when you have people willing to die, the guy in utah, the guy who went into the fbi cincinnati field office, you have people willing to go to federal prison, destroy their lives, their careers and their families for essentially one man and the diluted believe that somehow society is falling apart and we have to take back democracy, this is where we are. i wish i had the solution, i wish i had the button to press to say, oh, this is how we're going to get out of this, but right now it's looking -- it's looking like this is going to continue, despite the threat of jail, federal prison and ruinination people are doing this. >> frank used the word extremism and one of the theories of counter extremism is to counter the extremist threat within the movement. it seems like that may have been one of the strategies behind the compelling testimony of trump supporter and insurrectionist steven ayers. >> i was hanging on every word. everything he was putting out i was following. if i was doing it hundreds of millions of other people are doing it or maybe even still doing it. it's like he just said about that, you know, you have people still following doing that, who knows what the next election could come out, you know, it could end up being down the same path we are right now, i mean, you just don't know. >> he goes on to -- you and the committee members press him about whether he believed the lies at the time and he did. whether he believes them now and he says not really. counterextremism is really, really, really hard. >> yeah. >> and it's like that, right, it's one person at a time and even that one person, he's pretty sure he doesn't believe the lies anymore but in his own words there, who knows what the next election could come out, you know, could end up being down the same path we are on right now, i mean, we just don't know. >> yeah, stephen ayres brings together so many of the themes that we developed, that's why we called him as a hearing witness. he is a carpenter in erie, pennsylvania, he works hard, has a young daughter. he was surprised when president trump lost the election so he started reading on facebook and on social media platforms about the election. pretty soon because of his engagement with the platform, liking or following certain articles, more and more provocative sort of anti-election fraud content, and he is invited to join these affinity groups in which other people share these theories. then he hears the president say come to washington on january 6 it will be wild so he goes. before he knows it he doesn't have any idea what's going on at the capitol, he thinks he's going for a speech. he follows the president's invitation to go to the capitol and he is inside the capitol. now, he is not a victim, right? people are responsible for sifting the information that they get, the misinformation that they get, but it knows, nicolle, just how as you said pervasive and how difficult it is to combat this. there are a lot of people in this country that don't trust you, that don't trust me or anybody on this network, that don't trust "the new york times." they don't trust the messenger. so the facts that are so clearly established, they don't trust government, right? that is where the disconnect is. they still have this misguided belief that the election was stolen and as frank said, that converts into this almost sort of religious-like fervor to fight back against tyranny. i think the way you combat it is by calling it out, by holding people accountable, but there is a lag. the criminal justice system takes time to respond, right? this charge is based on some threats that occurred a little while ago, there is now a pending trial but the case will take time to resolve. the criminal justice system isn't proactive, it's reactive, it isn't dwrg to prophylactically fix this. hopefully in time holding people accountable has a deterrent effect but it takes time. >> michael steele, i have covered the filings by jack smith to put in place a gag order in the chutkan case and i have read all the paper and covered the civil trial and i've watched the president as closely as i did at any point in his presidency and i wonder if it's not crazy to wonder if he's trying to recreate the events of january 6 or based on all of the evidence and testimony developed by tim hafey and the members and all the investigators, he was deeply sated, deeply rewarded by what he saw on january 6. that he wanted stephen ayres there, he wanted them in the building. he was not upset that kevin mccarthy was scared. he was not upset that mike pence had to run for his life. he was not upset that they wanted to hang mike pence. he was deeply stimulated and excited by the violence. i wonder what you think his calculation is on whether violating these gag orders lands him in jail is a good thing or bad thing for him. >> you put your finger on two very important words there that describe everything about trump, stimulated and excited. it is a stimulant, it is a narcotic for him that people show him undying, unfettered, totally looked in fealty. it is afrodesiac. when someone doesn't give him that what is his reaction? it's personal. he takes it personally and he leans into it. you saw it in his going after bill barr and cohen and others who decided that, you know, protecting me is better for me than protecting you. so that's what he got all the lead up to january 6. it is what he continues to get as he's looking at polling showing that his numbers don't shrink on each indictment, it increases. that fealty and loyalty locks in and it is the juice that propels him. so when you are talking about, you know, yeah, we saw the scenes of him sitting in the courtroom last week, you know, angered and he storms out. well, do you know what, part of that is, yeah, he's pissed off because he can't control it, but the other side of his brain kicks in and goes, good reality tv, baby. they're going to see me come out and i'm still going to be the strong angry former president. i'm the guy that they're coming after and i'm showing that i'm determined to fight this. and that further stimulates that base, it further engenders their loyalty and fealty to him. he does not give a damn about you. you're being punked. you're being used every day for his particular pleasure, to save his behind. your butt is going to jail, right? now, he's using you to avoid that, to drag the system out, to push back on the work that timothy and the january 6th committee had done, to go after the colleagues of frank figliuzzi who are still in law enforcement trying to serve justice. so he's using all of those instruments to promote himself and push no matter how bad it seems to the rest of us who normally would just collapse under the weight of 91 indictments, donald trump gets a you know what from it. he's charged from it. the thing that probably bothers him more than all these other cases, nicolle, is the money deal, right? where they could come in and take $250 million plus from him, but even there there's the fealty that's going to come from that when that moment comes, that verdict comes down and he's handed a judgment, his numbers won't go down, they will just get stronger. >> you know, frank, i agree with all of michael steele's analysis and i want to turn it back to us, right? that is who he is and i think it's taken a while to really get that, but that is exactly who he is. what do we do in response? here is something that happened in a courtroom today, this is the 14th amendment case in colo >> how would extremists have understood trump's repeated calls to fight in that speech? >> a call violence. >> why? >> it's within far-right extremist culture, fighting is meant to be taken literally. >> now, i show that because the courts and the legal system is still trying to adjudicate his conduct from three years ago and he's barreling toward the republican nomination for the next presidential election. how do we respond as a country? >> our court system has never faced anything of this complexity and magnitude dealing with a president, now former president, and a significant portion of our population acting in a cult-like fashion. i keep, unfortunately, having to raise the cult factor here because you mentioned, you know, he needs on the violence. people who study cults use a phrase called forcing the end. you saw it with jim jones in guyana and passing out the poisoned kool-aid when he felt like the end was near, the outcome he wanted wasn't going to happen. you saw it with david karesh where they literally burned the place now. figuratively trump is trying to burn the place down meaning our structure and form of government. you also said in the context of him feeding on all of this he has already planted the seed saying i'm prepared to go to jail. that's a recent development for him. he disgrace flee compared himself to nelson mandella claiming he is going to be a political prisoner. this will further fuel the cult to act out violently when things don't happen that they think and promise themselves is going to happen like a legitimate win in an election. if we view it as a cult we have to treat it that way and we have to get into this counter radicalization and number one, yes, there needs to be consequences. consequences don't seem to be working very well. secondly, people inside the cult have to want out and you will remember there were people in waco who were allowed to leave. yeah, i want out. the kids went out, some women went out. we've got to work that opportunity. but yet we don't hear anyone on the right, any leadership in the house or senate on the right saying, yeah, let's all get out of here. i condemn this. it's not happening. and until that happens we're going to be in this mess. >> i want to -- there's about -- liz cheney, adam kinzinger, maybe mitt romney, all but one are out of government. i want to press all three of you of what we do and how we talk about him and ask you all to stick around through a break. when we come back we will have much more on all of this, including trump's latest attempt to try to stay on the ballot not just in colorado but in michigan. we will tell you about the legal back and forth there. plus, the new speaker of the house making his first big legislative move by trying to dismantle the rare, largely bipartisan good will of providing aid for israel in the wake of a terrorist attack. how he's trying to do that by picking a fight with president joe biden and the white house and protecting the ultra rich in the process. the maga right's latest tone deaf move on capitol hill. later in the broadcast the fbi director was out today with a brand-new very public chilling and blunt warning for all of us that the israel gaza war could inspire extremists at home to carry out attacks on americans going out about their daily lives. more on that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere 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(we did it) start today at godaddy.com ♪♪ we have great benefits from principal. so i know i'm taken care of. and not just me. but the ones who matter most to me. ♪♪ c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. but the ones who matter most to me. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. that sound we played before the break there is a legal effort and in that legal effort to keep trump off the ballot there was a second day of arguments in that critical case in colorado that aims to decide if the ex-president is disqualified from even appearing on the ballot because of his role in fomenting the capitol insurrection. a big focus today was trump's links to the far right with an extremism expert testifying about the role trump's rhetoric played in sparking the violence of the capitol on the 6th. efforts to stop trump for running for office based on the 14th amendment of the constitution have been gaining some legal steam in recent months and now donald trump himself is getting worried. attorneys for the ex-president just filed a lawsuit in the state of michigan arguing that secretary of state jocelyn benson has zero authority to stop trump from appearing on the ballot in that state. the group free speech for people filed a lawsuit in michigan last month to stop trump from running for office citing the 14th amendment. we're back with frank, tim and michael steele. tim, this was something that the committee looked at, right, in its referrals and it dealt with insurrection. just talk to me about the law and the letter of the law around insurrection. >> yeah, so nicolle, i think we have to be somewhat careful that we don't look to the courts to solve these broader pervasive social problems. courts resolve cases and controversies, things that are brought before them, in a criminal case determining adjudicating guilt or innocence of a particular allegation, in a civil case the claims that are made by the parties. they have an obviously crucial role here to play in adjudicating cases and controversies, but it's up to others to interpret those results and convert them into belief and faith in the system going back to what i said before. i think people do have more faith in courts than they do the political process or the media or other parts of our sort of institutions, but, again, the courts aren't going to fix this. the courts are going to adjudicate and resolve what's in front of them. now, there's a provision in the 14th amendment which precludes people who support insurrection from standing again for political office and that's what's at issue in some of these state cases. is there proof that the former president supported insurrection on or around january 6th and if so is he, therefore, precluded from seeking office, from being on the ballot in that state. no real precedent for that. the clause iii of the 13th amendment not like there is a long body of case law that determines what that means. what is support or aid and comfort to insurrection means so those cases will play out and establish a precedent, but, again, just like they didn't resolve the issues of the election when 62 cases were filed and 61 of them were resolved with complete dismissal, rejection of election fraud claims, one minor procedural vic of victory, it takes people converting them into policy and translating them so people have confidence in them if we're really going to change. >> michael steele, i take both points that tim hafey is making but as a non-lawyer aid and comfort might be interpreted as, quote, i love you, i will pardon you and i will record my version of a jail break song to raise money for you. again, i'm not a lawyer. >> right. >> i'm struck, though, by how much pressure is placed on every other institution because of the collapse of one of the two political parties in the country. >> right. >> right? so no one thought through what would happen if a republican party didn't disgorge a corrupt enthusiastic political figure. if instead of rejecting him or sort of pushing him aside for someone more traditionally strong politically and as a leader it elevated him and clung to him and was, as frank said, sort of addicted to him the way a cult is addicted to their leader even though he makes them drink poison. where does -- when does the fever break that the collapse of a political party is recognized as a threat to our democracy? >> oh, i think that -- i think that's already happened. i think folks have recognized it. i think what we're struggling with both inside and outside of the republican party for those of you who are still republicans and certainly for the country as a whole and looking at the totality of everything from january 6 forward is what do we do about it? what do these institutions do about it? it's very interesting point that tim raises because in listening to what he said what struck me was, yeah, our system is a system built on checks and balances and those checks and balances aren't just within the judicial, legislative and executive branches, amongst them, rather, it is also within the institutions themselves, including our political institutions. so the expectations as the wheels were starting to come off the cart here for republicans is that there would be some types of checks and balances within the institution that would prevent it from happening as we saw at previous points in the party's history. i give you the john burch society and their rearing of their heads in the late '50s and '60s. the institution checked that by saying, no, we're not doing white nationalism. that's not what conservatism is about, and restored balance, right? but that's not what's happened here. what you have happening is the institution going, oh, this sounds like a good party. we can do this. we can do this all day long, because there are benefits derived from it. there was no -- there have been no benefits in the past because there were repercussions for bad behavior politically. donald trump took away that. he gave the license out to behave badly, civically, personally, politically. and everyone seems to be enjoying that. so to tim's point and the question about what will the courts do here in terms of the 14th amendment, we haven't been here before so my expectation is they're going to punt because it reeks too much of politics and the court doesn't want to meyer itself in the politics and will look to, guess what, other institutions to check and restore balance and that realize and falls back on us, which, again, we're going to stand up, the citizens, to a point that frank was making earlier and take control here by unelecting the bad actors and not electing the one we know to be the worst actor of all. >> frank, i guess what i would just keep pressing on today and in the future is that we are already there. there were 61 >> we're already there with law enforcement saying when. he clearly will not accept the results of a legitimate election, i guarantee you that. we're never going to see that. there's already think tanks planning on what a trump government looks like with strong executive powers and the dissolution of civil service protections and privileges. so you're going to see cabinet members that will curl everyone's hair at the fbi and the dod and dhs and doj for sure. employees selected on their political beliefs and loyalty to trump, imagine that at places like fbi and doj. so, look, a couple good points from both tim and michael steele. we're not going to get what we need in a hurry from institutions and from the court system. in my own opinion on the 14th amendment provision we are talking about is that it is vague. it would have been better, quite frankly, if trump were charged with seditious conspiracy, which i don't think we can rule out right now because then we would have something to point to that might apply better to the 14th amendment. and i do find some irony here. the people, the very same people, the extremists on the violent right who tried to convince secretaries of state that they had the authority to overturn the election, pick alternate slates of electors, are now if i understand this right in michigan at least saying, no, the secretary of state has no authority. never mind. the secretary has no authority to remove me from the ballot. which is it? of course, we've seen the twisting of law and authority as it suits their benefit and we're seeing it now and americans need to see it for what it is. it's a perversion of justice and rule of law. it's not an adherence to it. >> the three of you are so wise and so clear and such a privilege to talk to all three of you about that. thank you for starting us off. michael steele sticks around a little longer for us. up next we turn to house republican politics led by their new speaker, he unveiled their multibillion dollar aid package for israel but there is a catch at a time of war. we will tell you about it. is a at a time of war we will tell you about it. -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. , that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. life, diabetes. each day is a unique blend of going, doing, and living. glucerna protein smart with 30 grams of protein to help keep you moving. uniquely designed with carbsteady to help manage blood sugar response. glucerna, bring on the day. as one of his very first official acts as speaker of the house of representatives republican maga mike johnson has decided to use emergency relief for israel to pic a fight with thte hse and president joe biden. the proposed aid package would include $14.3 billion in emergency funding for israel, in exchange it would take out exact same amount of money from the irs's budget that is included in president biden's signature legislative achievement of inflation reduction act. it's a more that has angered democrats who say this is a sign that johnson will take a right wing partisan approach to governing. in response that the white house sued a statement reading in part, ote, politicizing our national security interests is a nonstarter. demanding offsets for meeting core national security needs of the united states, like supporting israel and defending ukraine fro atrocities and russian imperialism would be a break with theormal bipartisan process and could have devastating implications for our safe alliances in the years ahead. emocrats have indicated that the irs provisions are dead arrival in the senate, but democratic senate finance chair ron widen calling them horrifying and a nonstarter. the house rules committee is expected to consider the new bill tomorrow. joining our conversation the brilliant cornell voucher is here. lucky for us michael steele is still here. michael steele, it falls in that trumpian category of shocking and galling but not surprising. give me your take on the new speaker. >> you know, it's maga. >> yeah. >> you know, trump got what he paid for. this is what it is right now. we can't dress it up any differently than what it is. you know, telejen nick, you know, kwaufed hair, nice suit and tie, still dangerous and this proves the point. the fact that you are going to align an irs agent's salary with aid to israel to me gives -- tells me what your priorities are. it tells me what you think about our relationship with israel. it tells me how you want to politically capitalize on the moment. to what end? you know not even republicans in the senate are going to vote for that. so it's not -- it's a means to no end because there is nothing that's going to benefit from it other than stoking, again, the maga base and sort of burnishing his cred, his street cred, with donald trump. that's why he's there. he's a hand-picked guy. you know, i don't know why they went through all the drama in the first place when they were going to end up with the one that trump wanted in the first place. the administration is going to have to figure out how to cut a deal and i don't know what that looks like because what is he going to offer up that's going to be palatable and pass the senate? i don't know. >> so, cornell, i didn't hear much of anything michael steele said after he called the new speaker telejen nick. i put on my classes and squibted and i fell if you run against jim jordan you are alltelgenic. to the idea that per calibrated, there is no crisis, no ally in trouble, there is no backstop of the senate republican leader mitch mcconnell saying -- let me tell you what mcconnell said. he said i see this the way schumer does. let me show you this. >> well, let me just say that conceptually -- conceptually senator schumer and i are in the same place in the sense that we view all of these problems as connected, ukraine, is part of this, obviously israel enjoys overwhelming support but i think it's also important that we have a part related to asia and that's taiwan. >> i think what he's saying is that they all go together. these are three places where u.s. national security interests are clear, and quote, senator schumer and i are in the same place. what does the white house do when they are now sort of standing with schumer, mcconnell, all house democrats and you've got this sort of naughty child in the house republicans? >> well, first, nicolle, someone should check the temperature in hell because schumer is supporting -- schumer and mitch mcconnell are in lockstep on something, so check the temperature, it's getting chilly there. >> they're wearing sweaters down there. >> thank you. they are. your language that you used is important, childish. it shows there are no longer any adults in the room in the house republican caucus. this is not the first time we've seen them do this that now they have such an unpopular legislative agenda. and let's be clear, they are not really there to legislate, right? jim jordan and the new speaker, these aren't men who are into legislating, they're men who are into politics and this what they're doing right now is, in fact, playing politics with our national security. once upon a time there were adults in the room and whether you were republican or democrat you stopped with the politics when it came to our foreign policy and our national security, but now you've seen them time and time again exploit crisis to try to move forward and play politics with an agenda that they know they can't pass on its own merits. look, i think the white house needs to take this to the american people because i do think when you look at -- the american people can fix this because i do think when you look at that middle of the road moderate mom in the suburbs of pennsylvania and in michigan and wisconsin and georgia, when you take the case of them that this is about sort of our national security, this is about projecting america's power and strength across the world, this is about protecting and looking out for our allies and making sure that the wars this they are fighting over there don't spread here and we get involved in it and what are house republicans doing, they're playing politics. they're connecting this to sort of political issues that have nothing to do with national security. i think to a certain extent you're going to see some of this in the upcoming house elections where democrats are using some of this extremism and is playing politics to really turn moderate middle of the road voters, particularly these suburban moms who have been really sort of key swing group over the last decade in determining which way the suburbs go, whether they go red or blue and they've been breaking more blue than they have been in the past, i think this helps democrats in the campaign. >> i want to pull out of both of you because you are two of the most political minds in the country what that looks like because i totally agree. i think if you couple roe with the republicans losing grip on the edge of the cliff having anything responsible or stable to say about national security. on the other side of aid for taiwan, israel and ukraine is china, russia and hamas terrorists. so i want to press both of you on what that conversation with the country looks like. i have to sneak in a quick break first. don't go anywhere. sneak in a quk first. don't go anywhere. feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte™. ask your doctor about caplyta find savings and support at caplyta.com. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can dramatically relieve ra and psa symptoms, including fatigue for some. it can stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. learn how abbvie could help you save. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolven mg the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. michael steele, if the shoe were on the other foot i always wonder what it would look like for the party that came out against aid for taiwan, israel and ukraine. >> yeah, imagine that. look, i think in this -- this environment what you are looking at is a narrative that has to be told very, very carefully, but also with a higher degree of emotion and urgency. i think everyone really appreciated president biden's moment in which with clarity he set the course for the effort ahead with israel, but i also think there is that -- the other story which is the part that keeps getting away that people don't fully appreciate and is being misjudged and misidentified in the political context and that is around the palestinian people. two things can be true at once. you can support israel and condemn what happened, but at the same time recognize what is also concerning to the palestinian people. that's what the two-state solution was trying to get at. and so there's a space here that i think the biden administration and democrats along with republicans who are in agreement can begin to clarify for the american people so they don't fall back on the tried and true and very well worn i don't want my tax dollars going to somebody who don't live here and fighting foreign wars, we need to pay our bills at home. well, the last administration just spent $8 trillion i didn't hear you complaining about that spending so why are you upset about the hundreds of billions that's going to be involved here to save people's lives. so i think it's a very important narrative to set in stone with the american people because when the politics grabs ahold, nicolle, and you know this from your stint in this space in communication, it is hard to disentangle a wrong narrative. >> yeah, and i think, cornell, it's more complicated, right? i mean, i think that the administration has been, to use michael steele's word, clear, moral and principled. brit hume coming on after the address to the nation and praising him, before anyone got to him he spoke to truth and that approval was across the ideological spectrum and war is hell and in a social media area the hell will be on our phones all day every day and the pain and agony and despair of every innocent civilian caught in the crosshairs, it's the 1,400 innocent israelis and now thousands of innocent palestinians, that pain will seep into everyone in charge everywhere, and in this country that is president joe biden. how is that navigated? >> well, it's tough, right, but that comes with the job of being president. look, in the end when you look at the american people they are not going to know all the ins and outs of foreign policy. they are not going to know the history of ukraine and russia, and they are not going to know the history of the ottoman empire and jewish migration to parts of what we now know as middle east. they are not going to know the histories of the palestinian and israeli conflict. in the end they are going to want to understand are american troops going to be involved in this? are we going to be safer or less safe because of this? i hate to boil it down to such simplicity but in the end you do have to boil it -- for politics you do have to boil it down to its more simplest form for american people, in the end that american voter is thinking about, you know, am i safer? are my children safer? are we safer as americans because of this? so in the end we have to -- you know, what the leader has to do is make the connection between what we're doing overseas, we're doing in order to make america safer. that is in our national interest to do so. and if we don't, in fact, make these investments overseas with our allies, it makes for a more dangerous world for us right now and particularly for our -- for our children. now, that's what americans understand. and i think if you can -- the president can make that case on a more -- on a real simple basis. i know we and some of your viewers, we have a smart viewership here. >> we do. >> we don't want to get into all the intricacies of the policy, but in the end that average voter who is that mom in the swing suburbs of our battleground states she doesn't have time for all those intricacies, she has kids to worry about and feeding that sorry man, et cetera, she just wants to know is she safe, are her kids going to be safe, are we going to be embroiled in something bigger. the president has to say that these investments make america safer in the long term. you know this well, nicolle, in 2004-2005 when michael steele and i both sort of worked for parties when there was a national party that it meant something to work for a national party, going and looking at the research, you know, bush and republicans had one huge strength and that was protecting americans and that was making america secure. almost -- and almost nothing else mattered when you pushed that. i think republicans are losing that grip on what has been a central brand of the republican party and that is strength and security on the national stage. >> and i think that this white house doesn't get enough credit for owning all of the emotional pieces of that. i mean, president biden has not looked and put his finger in the air looking for which way the political winds are blowing, he has looked to do the right thing to protect this country and to protect american allies and democracy. >> it's more than cross pressure with this base. unfortunately his base is in up roar about this but he has to show leadership. >> to be continued. there's many things more important. thank you both so much. cornell belcher and michael steele, thank you for spending time with us. up next a warning at home that the hamas terrorists could serve as inspiration for foreign and domestic extremists to attack americans right here. that frightening concern coming from our fbi and public testimony today, we will show it to you next. imony today, we wi t to you next. your best defense at erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. 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(♪♪) the reality is that the terrorism threat has been elevated throughout 2023, but the ongoing war in the middle east has raised the threat of an attack against americans in the united states to a whole another level. since the horrific terrorist attacks committed by hamas against innocent people in israel a few weeks ago, we've been working around the clock to support our partners there and to protect americans here at home. we assess that the actions of hamas and its allies will serve as an inspiration the likes of which we haven't seen since isis launched its so-called caliphate several years ago. hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. that was fbi director christopher wray today raising an urgent alarm that the terror attack on october 7th in israel against israelis by hamas will inspire more attacks right here on u.s. soil. christopher wray testified before the senate homeland security committee earlier and stressed that this moment is, quote, the time to be concerned. he outlined the numerous potential sources of future attacks. >> here in the united states our most immediate concern is the violent extremists, individuals or small groups, will draw inspiration from the events in the middle east to carry out attacks against americans going about their daily lives. that includes not just homegrown violent extremists inspired by a foreign terrorist organization, but also domestic violent extremists targeting jewish or muslim communities. on top of the homegrown violent extremists and domestic violent extremist threat we also cannot and do not discount the possibility that hamas or another foreign terrorist organization may exploit the current conflict to conduct attacks here on our own soil. we have kept our sights on hamas and have multiple ongoing investigations into individuals affiliated with that foreign terrorist organization. >> the warning from the head of the fbi comes as the adl has recorded a dramatic increase in anti-semitic incidents in the united states since october 7th, just a little over three weeks ago. a 388% increase over the last year. wray provided specific examples wk that his department has already done in tackling threats. he said the fbi arrested a man in hston last week who was studying how to build bombs and posted online about his support for killing jews. he als highlighted the brutal killing of a 6-year-old muslim boy in illinois earlier this month that his agency is now investigating as a hate crime. yesterday doj announced that last week it charged a las vegas man with threatening to kill senator jacky rosen who is jewish with a series of threatening voice mails including one that referred to finishing, quote, what hitler started. rosen was asked by reporters today how she's doing. >> well, you know, i'm feeling the same as jews are feeling all around the world, under attack and under threat. now, i have full confidence in our department of justice and law enforcement to work on this case, but frankly students across the country, k through 12, our college campuses, look at the protests around the world. jews are feeling under attack. >> that increased threat environment right here in the united states follows a terror attack that killed the most jewish humans since the holocaust. it's where we begin the hour with former top official in the justice department's national security division mary mccord and former cia director now msnbc senior national security analyst john brennan. mary, there's something about living through these events and then there's something different about watching the country's fbi director, a man who speaks seemingly only when he has to and publicly only when forced to lay out the threat environment as he did today. your reaction? >> well, what we heard from director wray today is what i was expecting we would hear, right, because this -- this successful in many ways attack by hamas, right, as you indicated, killing the most jewish people since the holocaust and, you know, really in an environment, in a country where the intelligence services really are known for their capacity and their capability to carry out something as successful as that was from their perspective, of course, as devastating and terrorizing as it was, gives sort of emboldens other actors, whether it is foreign terrorist groups, like christopher wray said, or whether it's individuals herein spider by foreign terrorist groups or domestic extremists. we already have had as we talked about on many different episodes, nicolle, we've already had such heightened political violence, anti-semitic attacks and violence were up before the october 7th hamas attack and now we are up another 388%. this is also, you kno, noter for anti-muslim attacks as well. anytime you see something like the hamas attack that is emboldening to others and they maybe see the u.s. as sort of stretched, right, we're operating in ukraine, we're sending surging forces to support israel and they might see vulnerabilities here, foreign terrorist organizations. of course, john brennan is better equipped than i am to speak to that, but i would also emphasize, you know, our domestic extremists are every bit as much of a threat to every day americans going about their lives as most foreign terrorist organizations. not necessarily in terms of the big dramatic attack like the hamas attack or like 9/11, but things like we see here on an unfortunately all too regular basis, mass shootings, violent killings like the slaughter of a 6-year-old palestinian boy, these are the things that are often inspired by this general atmosphere of violence and in some ways an acceptability of violence. >> let me play a little bit more of christopher wray on the targeting of the jewish community here in this country for you, director brennan. >> i will say that this is a threat that is reaching in some ways sort of historic levels, in part because, as you know all too well, the jewish community is targeted by terrorists really across the spectrum. homegrown violent extremists, foreign terrorist organizations both sunni and shia, domestic violent extremists and in fact our statistics would indicate that for a group that represents only about 2.4% of the american public, they account for something like 60% of all religious-based hate crimes. >> i'm not usually blown away by numbers and statistics, but if that doesn't blow you away, i don't know that i knew we lived in a country where a group that makes up 2.4% of the population is the victim of 60% of all religious hate crimes. >> well, nicolle, i think it's a sad commentary and times that there's still a lot of sometimes latent anti-semitism that rising to the surface when you have incidents like we have had recently in israel and gaza. unfortunately there are too many individuals who are driven by emotion and passion that decide to take out their views in a violent manner. because we're now three and a half weeks or so into this clash in gaza and israel and this war, and we have many weeks ahead of us, i believe, of death and destruction, i think as director wray said, the bureau has to believe that this is going to lead to greater incitement and inspiration for individuals to take action, whether it be anti-semitism, attacks against jewish or israeli targets or against muslim targets or palestinian targets, as well as against u.s. targets, given that the u.s. is now playing a very high-profile role in the conflict and because our support for israel has generated a lot of criticism and condemnation on the part of some others. so, therefore, i do think that the fbi as well as local law enforcement really need to do all they can to remain as vigilant as possible, follow up on leads and try to prevent these individuals interest carrying out both acts of violence here on our soil. >> mary, i want to share a few more pieces of data and some things we've gathered with you. adl recorded a total of 312 anti-semitic incidents between october 7th, which is the way of thttack in israel on the 23rd, 190 of them wereirectly linked to the war insrl and gaza. during the same period a year ago the adl received preliminary reports of 64 incidents. this is a tweet today from fred guttenberg, friend of the show, we call on him often, we tweets, quote, i used to like you, that's the message that i am receiving from a lot of people who i have stood with for years now against violence and hate in all communities across america. now that i am asking for people to stand against violence and hate directed at jews, they won't. sad. what's going on here? >> well, i think one of the things that is going on is people are -- are conflating things that need to be kept separate. you can be opposed to what israel is doing now in gaza and not be anti-jewish. so we can have palestinian protests, opposed to the, you know, humanitarian crisis going on right now in gaza that does not necessarily mean they are anti-jewish. you can also be opposed to hamas and should be, i think, all americans and all people in the world should be opposed to a foreign terrorist organization like hamas and be very, very vehemently opposed to their attack on israel, but doesn't mean you are opposed to all palestinians. i think what we're starting to see unfortunately at places like college campuses and schools and in other communities is i think people are -- some people, not everyone, are failing to appreciate that distinction and they're lumping, you know, those who are pro-palestinian with pro-hamas, those who are pro, you know, israel -- yes, those who are anti-israel with anti-jewish. i think it's important to keep those things separate because all we are really going to do is weaken our own national security and weaken our own democracy here in the united states if we feed into and give, you know, support or aid to those types of viewpoints. so i think it's really important for our leaders, our leadership, to continue to make that point and for those who are out protesting and those who are trying to protect their jewish communities, to also keep these things separate. >> i think that what is so alarming to so many people, director brennan, is that's not what's happening. that's not what's happening in college campuses. there are public demonstrations of support for hamas which the united states government, the biden administration, the state department, the fbi designates as a terrorist group, and here is what christopher wray said today on the threat of coordinated foreign terror attacks. >> what has now increased is the greater possibility of one of these foreign terrorist organizations directing an attack in the united states. we haven't seen evidence that it's actually happening yet, but what we have seen is -- and i listed them off in my opening remarks -- one terrorist organization after another calling for attacks. >> we should wake up. >> it is a time to be concerned. we are in a dangerous period. >> so in a post-9/11 world i think the american public is cognizant of the term an increase or an uptick in the chatter and i wonder -- it seems that the period when that was all classified and secret may be over. i mean, christopher wray testified today that -- maybe this is all public now, maybe the terrorists, too, don't operate in such secret. quote, one terrorist organization after another calling for attacks and we should wake up. it's time to be concerned. we are in a dangerous period. what is the true level of alarm among people that have the jobs you once had in government? >> i think the alarm is quite high because mary was noting there are extremists on both sides of this issue that are fueling anger, fear, anxiety and are trying to inspire individuals to take violent action. so whether or not you are a foreign terrorist organization or even a domestic extremist organization, you can, in fact, use what's going on right now as a way to incite -- as a way to encourage violent acts, which is why the fbi, homeland security, local law enforcement as well as our intelligence community need to be extra vigilant to see what might be happening, to be able to find out through their sources, technical and human source networks whether or not there are active plans under way to try to operationalize some of these sentiments, which is why this is such a challenging time and especially since the conflict right now in gaza and israel has the potential to expand, which is why they are very concerned about what's happening in the north of israel in hezbollah and hezbollah not only has just a very large arsenal in southern lebanon, but also it has a global terrorist network that it can, in fact, tap to be able to carry out attacks. which is why, again, i think christopher wray was very prudent to be able to highlight this danger to u.s. interests, not just here in the united states but also locally. >> mary, it was a fanning out, if you will, of the administration today. u.s. secretary of homeland security, secretary mayorkas has out as well. let me show you his sound on dhs's efforts specifically to protect faith communities on college campuses. >> i think that your performance is despicable and i think that the fact that you are not willing to provide answers to this committee is absolutely atrocious. >> mr. chairman, may i? >> if you'd like to have a minute to respond. >> i would and i'm not sure i will listen it to 60 seconds. >> that's fine. >> number one, what i found despicable is the implication that this language, tremendously odious, actually could be emblematic of the sentiments of the 260,000 men and women of the department of homeland security. number one. number two, senator hawley takes an adversarial approach to me in this question and perhaps he doesn't know my own background. perhaps he does not know that i am the child of a holocaust survivor. perhaps he does not know that my mother lost almost all her family at the hands of the nazis. and so i find his adversarial tone to be entirely misplaced. i find it to be disrespectful of me and my heritage. and i do not expect an apology, but i did want to say what i just articulated. thank you. >> we have deployed our protective security advisers in each state to work with communities of faith. we have shared information and intelligence with our state, local, tribal, territorial and campus law enforcement partners in partnership with the fbi. i have spoken with a number of leaders of colleges and universities with respect to their need to take leadership and to ensure the safety and security of the students on their campuses. we are doing a whole series of actions to address this moment. >> so, mary, this full-court press of an administration's national security leaders usually comes after some steps have been taken behind the scenes. what would you guess is being done to sort of realize the things that the secretary is talking about and we will come back to his fiery response to josh hawley in a second. >> yeah, i think that, you know, one of the things that he indicated this, and so did director wray, is, you know, they've got to be sharing information, they've got to be sharing, you know, credible threats that they're receiving through department of homeland security, fbi and other sources including private researchers. i've said so many times since leaving government i rely much more now on private researchers who have access to a real wealth of information coming out of the extremist online spaces and even the extremist, you know, real world spaces. you know, credible threats need to be shared so that they can -- so that people can take preparatory action. the other thing, and i don't know how much this will be coming from the administration, but, you know, college officials are really in, you know, a really precarious position because they want to respect constitutional rights like the right to free speech and to demonstrate, but they also need to keep their communities safe. it is not impossible to protect public safety and also preserve constitutional rights. there are things you can do, content neutral, viewpoint neutral, sort of time, place and manner restrictions on demonstrations to ensure safety. you can separate protesters and counterprotesters. and there's also just subtle things that like local law enforcement can do if they are separating, you know, keeping the buffer zone between protesters and counterprotesters, they are face every other direction as opposed to facing one way a cheering peering to protect one group of people against other group of people. at college campuses the people there are all here in america studying, some are americans, some are foreign born and hopefully we all want the same things. as you noted earlier, there are some bad actors for sure who really is, you know, being pro-hamas as opposed to pro-palestinian, but i think we need to try to preserve the ability for people to engage in free speech but while protecting public safety. you cannot -- you cannot underestimate what violent rhetoric and violent incitement will produce. you just can't be, you know, too cautious about that. you've got to take these things seriously. >> and, i mean, on that point i would just sort of end this conversation by saying a u.s. senator using the words "despicable" and "atrocious" to describe the country's secretary of homeland security is pretty -- well, to quote josh hawley despicable and atrocious at a moment like this. really shocking. mary mccord and john brennan, thank you both so much for starting us off. when we come back israeli defense forces say a top hamas commander and the architect -- one of the architects of the october 7th terrorist attack is dead after a devastating strike in gaza. it comes as u.s. secretary of state antony blinken says hundreds of americans and their family members are being blocked by hamas from leaving. we will have a live report from the israel-gaza border after a short break. amid a rash of transgressions by supreme court just sis clarence thomas and samuel alito a big, big move by the senate judiciary committee voting to subpoena the justices' wealthy right wing ben factors. 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(soft music) we have about 400 american citizens and their family members, so it's roughly 1,000 people who are stuck in gaza and want to get out. i'm focused on this intensely. the impediment is simple, it's hamas. we have not yet found a way to get them out by whatever -- through whatever place and by whatever means that hamas is not blocking. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken today on the americans and their families still trapped in gaza. roughly 1,000 total. blinken says the state department has been in close communication, quote, as best we can, he said. that is in addition blinken says to another 5,000 people from other countries who are also stuck and trying to leave gaza. the world health organization warns that a, quote, public health catastrophe is imminent due to overcrowding, mass displacement and dehydration. devastating images today appear to show what the palestinian health ministry says was a massive blast at a refugee camp. the indonesian hospital says dozens of dead and hundreds are wounded. israel's military confirms i was one of their strikes and says it was targeting and killed a top hamas commander who was one of the architects of the october 7th terror attack on israel. after talks stalled over the weekend to free the hostages taken by hamas now 240 according to israel are still bng held in gaza. the head of israel's national security council said today that he does not, quote, see a hostage deal in sight. joining us now my colleague nbc news correspondent ellison barber at the israel-gaza border. so much news to get through today. tell us what you are seeing. >> reporter: yeah, we have been listening and watching as the gaza skyline just lights up, a glowy orange behind us. last night and tonight, nicolle, we've seen a heavy concentration of rockets as well as what appear to be flare bombs from this sort of northwest pocket of gaza. if you watch the skyline for a minute you might see some more. we just heard and saw another explosion before we started talking to you, but this has been a constant -- see something falling right over there? things will start to fall. that pocket has been a heavy concentration from this standpoint and this section of northern gaza, really since friday night when israel announced they had ground forces inside of northern gaza that first night, friday, shortly after the announcement. what we were hearing a lot of was heavy caliber artillery, we are still hearing that but in the last two days we have seen in the overnight hours a lot of rockets, a lot of missiles flying into the direction of gaza, occasionally we will see some coming out of gaza, but most of those that we've seen come out of dpaez have been intercepted and it's been far less than what we have seen going inside of gaza. a lot of focus tonight has been on what you explained, the refugee camp, explosions there were reported five to six hours ago. we understand that there are still search and rescue efforts ongoing right now. the director of the indonesian hospital which is in northern gaza, he said that right now their initial estimate they believe there are about 400 people dead and injured because of the attacks in jabalia. israel have acknowledged that they did carry out strikes in this area, but they say they were targeting hamas militants. they say they killed at least 50 hamas militants as well as a top hamas commander. i want to read you some of their statement because they also in a very lengthy statement a spokesperson for israel's defense forces seems to be acknowledging that there is absolutely a civilian toll to this strike but they are blaming hamas for that. in this long statement he said in part that the israeli strikes on hamas militants collapsed underground tunnels where hamas was hiding and when the tunnels collapsed it brought down several nearby buildings with it. the idf wept on to blame the current leader of hamas,yahya sinwar says he purposefully built the terrorist infrastructure of hamas under the homes of civilians. again, we are still gathering information on exactly the toll of what has happened inside of jabalia. it's been five to six hours but numbers can change a lot between now and the coming hours. according to medical officials on the ground there are still people missing that are being searched for right now. doctors without borders just released a statement from one of their nurses working at a hospital in gaza and she said this about the aftermath of the jabalia attack, she said, quote, young children arrived at the hospital with deep wounds and severe burns. they came without their families. many were screaming, asking for their parents. gaza has one of the youngest populations in the world, about half of gaza's population is under the age of 18. unicef, the director of unicef was speaking to the u.n. national security council on monday and she said this latest escalation and war the true cost will be measured in children's lives. those who have dealt with violence, who have experienced it and those who are forever changed by it. when we're talking about this war and what we have seen there are so many children that have been impacted by this and i think we're starting to see that. another example of that in jabalia right now. i mean, there are children going to believe every night waking up to the sound of their windows rattling from rockets, that is true in israel but it is especially true in gaza right now. children don't get a say in war, they don't get to vote, no one asks them if the fight is worth t but they are massively, massively impacted by it. according to israeli officials, 33 children are believed to be still held hostage inside of gaza by hamas militants. israeli officials say at least 29 children died in the terror attacks on october 7th. palestinian officials say at least 3,500 children have been killed in gaza since this war began. they say primarily by israeli air strikes. the thing to remember when we watch all of what is happening and there's so much news to process from this war, every single day, but one thing we all have to remember is that there are rules for wars and one of the rules for all warring parties, they are required to protect the lives of people who are not involved in the fighting. they are required to protect civilians. whether people are looking at what happened in jabalia and saying that's on hamas or they're looking at it and saying that's on israel, the simple fact this have war and we have seen it through the last three weeks, we remember it every time we hear an explosion back there, nicolle, is that civilians are not being protected here regardless of who you want to blame, the basic rule of war is that civilians must be protected and we are constantly seeing civilian casualties, nicolle. >> ellison barber, your extraordinary ability to bring a complicated crisis, a flash point to something that we can all agree on and that is that no child should suffer in any of these circumstances, it's really deeply appreciated by me and i'm sure all of our viewers. nbc's ellison barber, thank you very much. please stay safe. shifting gears for us, the senate judiciary committee is moving ahead today in its ethics investigation into the united states supreme court. the committee's latest move to vote to subpoena the billionaire benefactors of justices thomas and alito. the committee's chairman will be our next guest. don't go anywhere. s chairman wie our next guest don't go anywhere. (♪♪) (♪♪) (♪♪) (♪♪) i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. the senate judiciary committee has announced that it will be voting on subpoenas in an effort to get to the bottom of the ethical rot that has embroiled the nation's highest court after repeated scandals involves the jest suss accepting lavish gifts from wealthy activists some of whom had business before the unite states supreme court. the "washington post" is in this, quote, senate judiciary committee leaders said they would vote as soon as november 9th to authorize subpoenas for information from texas billionaire harlan crow, a close friend and benefactor of justice clarence thomas and from leonard leo the conservative judicial activist. the committee said it would also vote to issue aubpoena to conservative donor robin arcually ii judiciary committee chairman dick durbin and sheldon white house said in a stement by accepting these lavish undisclosed gifts theess suss have enabled their wealthy benefactors and other invials with business before the court to gain private access to the justishile preventing public scrutiny of this conduct. it is imperative that we understand the full eent of how people with interests before the court are able to use undisclosed gifts to gain private access to the justices. senate judiciary committee chairman dick durbin joins us now. thank you for being with us on this. it feels like your approach was to give the court a minute to clean their own house and that maybe these subpoenas and the timing are in response to one additional revelations and, two, evidence that they have no interest in getting out a broom and a dust pan. is that fair? >> you're exactly right. we started off by inviting the chief justices of the supreme court to testify before the committee. it was a respectful invitation for him to explain what he thought was the appropriate code of conduct for the supreme court and how his justices were living up to those standards. he declined the invitation. within a cascade of disclosures of all of the lavish gifts given by this gaggle of billionaires, who find great comfort in entertaining the justices on trips, lavish trips involving private jet planes, yachts, the purchase of rvs, the list goes on and on and virtually all of this undisclosed. it took good journalism to find out what happened, this subpoena effort hopes to expand that. >> listen, i will draw on my time in the republican party to make this analogy. sometimes institutions that would most benefit from the, you know, the medicine of transparency are the most hunkered down. i wonder if with all of your expertise you have a diagnosis. do you view the conservative wing as united in hunkering down and doing nothing to improve their public standing which has plunged farther, faster than any institution in american civic life? >> it used to be the judicial ethics was bipartisan, just as short a time as a year ago, but unfortunately now this appears to be a partisan issue on capitol hill. they say, well, you're just mad at the recent decisions by the supreme court. we remind them all the time that it was 11 years ago that i first approached chief justice roberts and said what are you going to do with a code of conduct and ethics on the court? the disclosures were just trickling out then, now they're gushing out. they involve clarence thomas for sure, they also involve justice alito and other justices. i mean, the bottom line is this, this is not a partisan issue. it wasn't when i wrote the request 11 years ago and it isn't now. the issue is this, why would the nine supreme court justices in the highest court of the land have the lowest standard of ethics? why wouldn't they at least have the same standards as federal courts under their jurisdiction. if they lived by those standards it would be a dramatic improvement over the current situation. >> would you invite the liberal justices to testify about their views about an ethics tack of package for the supreme court? >> i would certainly invite them. i wouldn't hesitate to do it. it's interesting at least four to five of them have already stated publicly that they think it's overdue, it's time to get down to business. that's why i don't understand why chief justice roberts hasn't solved this problem that he's facing. he knows that the image and stature of the court has plummeted because of these gift disclosures and knows that he can in a short order, a matter of doing it tomorrow, for example, announce a code of ethics that applies to the court. he has the majority of support of the just he is that have already declared publicly they are in favor of it. why won't he step forward and do this? it will make several justices unhappy, but if the court is going to have a reputation that is going to be respected they have to do this immediately. >> i wonder if part of the reason is that if it were ever -- if lights were to ever shine on the passage of money to a couple of them, and i'm thinking of the revelations that propublica has afforded all of us as a reading public about clarence thomas, that it would be untenable. i mean, what do you think is there? what do you think is still being hidden about i clarence thomas? >> so last week the senate finance committee asked the basic request he if one businessman who is not being subpoenaed because he's been cooperative, if one businessman loaned clarence thomas about a quarter of a million dollars to buy one of the swankiest rvs available and then he made one interest payment in return and stopped paying on it, then the person said, well, i will just forgive you that debt, that became a gift or at least income or something of that nature which should have been disclosed on income tax returns. once you get into this it gets a little more complicated. the headline is bad enough but the follow-up to be devastating. >> the other half against less ink because it's harder to connect the dots but it's pretty obvious that those people have pretty serious and consequential interests before the court. will the committee seek to tie the financial gifts to outcomes and understand if anything untoward has taken place? >> well, you're talking about looking back in history and i don't know if we can or will do that, but looking forward we have passed an ethics bill, senator whitehouse's bill and it really addresses the whole issue of recusal in the future, which as you know means that a justice says i have a conflict of interest or appearance of impropriety i won't be involved in this decision. that currently is not the case in most instances. it should be a standard in the supreme court as it is in other federal courts and that would govern whether or not they could sit on a court where there's someone -- one of these billionaires, for example, who has a vested interest in the case. >> it's just amazing. i know your work is the work of good government, but it's amazing that with the politics and the public's view of the court plunging that they don't have -- see the self-interest in complying with any transparency. we will stay on this story. senator durbin, thank you for spending some time with us on it. >> good to be with you, nicolle. we're going to fit in a quick break, but we have much more on this story and the efforts to reign in the ethics lapses of the supreme court on the other side. don't go anywhere. preme court on the other side don't go anywhere. it's time for a change. axonics therapy gave me my life back. it's not another pad or pill. it's amazing that a tiny device can provide 15 years of relief - and you can try it out first. get started at findrealrelief.com ask a bladder specialist if axonics therapy is right for you and to discuss potential risks. results and experiences may vary. let's get your life back! announcer: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? 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ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its own! -no, it won't go away on its own. it's an infection. you need a prescription. nail fungus is a contagious infection. at the first signs, show it to your doctor... ... and ask if jublia is right for you. jublia is a prescription medicine used to treat toenail fungus. its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness... ... itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. jublia is recognized by the apma. most commercially insured patients may pay as little as $0 copay. go to jubliarx.com now to get started. let's bring into our conversation the president of demand justice brian fallon and propublica reporter josh kaplan who is on the beat. let me ask you first, brian, i know you've been pressing senate judiciary to do just this, better late than never or what's your read on the news today? >> oh, i think this is a very laudable step that the senate judiciary democrats are taking, as you got to in your interview with senator durbin he is a patient man. he has given these republican billionaires and leonard leo ample opportunity, multiple pass toss comply with the committee's request for information. so next week if they vote through these subpoenas i'm sure it will be a party line vote but dick durbin will have the moral high ground because of the fact that he has bent over backyards trying to give them opportunities to comply. i think the question will then become, you know, what's going to come next because you can expect that leonard leo and harlan crow will defy the subpoenas, they've signaled that they don't think there is a constitutional bases for the judiciary committee to be going after this information. sam alito gave a strange interview recently where he suggested that congress doesn't have the power to regulate the court's ethics. nobody -- hardly anybody agrees with that, not even conservative legal scholars. but one theory as to why he is putting that out there is to give some sort of cover to give some kind of legal argument to the likes of leonard leo and harlan crow no, not comply with even these subpoenas. so will the senate, you know, make a criminal referral to the justice department saying that they are not complying with a legitimate subpoena being issued by the senate? that will be the question they face after they vote these subpoenas through next week. >> joshua, propublica's journalism about the court sans despite a lot of complaining. it was it seemed predicated or rooted in or corroborated by documents that were never in dispute in terms of being real. and it feels like it's possible that ethics laws that require documents to prove or disprove financial ties could actually do something. what is your sense on where all the resistance comes from? >> the resistance to reform? i mean -- >> correct. >> -- it's a fascinating question. as senator durbin was alluding to, this -- the notion that the supreme court should have ethics rules was a bipartisan one until very recently. i a lot of congress people felt it was common sense that the most powerful in the country should have the same sort of rules that they do as lawmakers. in the past year, it has become on partisan lines, for the most part, with some exception. lawmakers that sponsored him past legislation that made minor changes to the ethics rules of the supreme court and disclosure requirements, roughly one year or two years ago are now saying they don't believe congress has any authority to regulate at all. where exactly that change came from is an open question. >> i ask because sometimes, people talk about legislation, but has no chance of solving the problem. in the instance of the flow of money from superrich and super conservative alien heirs to the justices, the documents actually has a chance of shining light between conservative billionaires and a lot of business and interestingly the supreme court rules on all sorts of things. the whole thing that was reported, that is not a first move. it would appear that if something can pass, based on the momentum, it might actually do something. maybe it never happens. >> if you look to the back-and- forth, in the lead up to this decision, harlan crow was offering to make some information available. he was saying he would only be willing to talk about and provide information related to donations or gifts in the last five years. so much of the reporting predates that window. it lends credibility to the idea that there is stuff that he is unwilling and uncomfortable having to disclose. democrats are right to pursue this. it is easy to become cynical. in my last answer i brought up the possibility that they will defy the subpoenas and nothing may come of it. we should not lose sight of the fact that the reporting and efforts so far are producing cracks in the wall. i remember being on the show and the first allegation surfaced. the initial response was to issue a statement on behalf of all nine justices think existing practice was sufficient. in the last two months, you had two republican justices. amy coney barrett and brett kavanaugh. they both go off script, apart from what sam alito was saying. they been leading with we need to do this. there would be eminent action. you are asking, i think there are signs of fisher's here. some of them want to stem the leading. that is -- . i don't think those will be coming from the republican justices ifdurbin and -- were not keeping the pressure on. >> do you think that is the two younger justices that have the longest time left to serve that might want to improve the impression of the supreme court? >> yes. i can't speak to it the exact motivation but certainly, based on the pattern, the members that have engaged in the most unknown and undisclosed activity like this. it could be banned for lower court judges and happen to be members that have been on the court the longest. it is possible that the norms that existed kind have fell away over time. we have been looking at all the justices. we would be more surprised to find something out. one of the newest appointees. >> we appreciate you both. thank you very much. we will be right back. ht b. like the cover-it-ups and brush-it-offs? enough with good enoughs. don't stay hiding or hurting. when your lotions and creams don't do enough to help treat the inflammation beneath the skin, causing plaques and pain, it's time to get real about psoriasis, so, your dermatologist can help you get clear. make the appointment and ask about real clear skin. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) with the push of a button, constant contact's ai tools help you know what to say, even when you don't. hi! constant contact. helping the small stand tall. a bit of news to tell you about in the classified documents case brought by jack smith against to be asked president. donald trump was spotted leaving the courthouse in miami. the federal courthouse is the site of what is known as a skiff, a sensitive compartment information facility. it's where you can look at classified documents that are so sensitive they can only be viewed in most locations. multiple sources reports that donald trump was scheduled to visit today to review some of the evidence shared by jack smith in the case. donald trump is accused of illegally hoarding classified documents at his residence at mar-a-lago. kind of documents that you would only view at skiff. th yot evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. is it possible my network could take my business to the next level? 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