Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline 20200927

There appeared to be a body hanging from a banister. From first look it would appear as though it was a suicide. But then they looked closer. It appeared that there was a struggle. My gut was tellin me, theres somethin wrong here. Did someone want michele dead . Was someone else willing to help . At that point, were shellshocked. A bond forged in blood. Could you cry . I might. We call it the lie and cry conversation. Betrayed by blood. What are you hoping for . Some conversation between the two of em about the death. We have an investigator look at the video, and he goes, i dont like what im seein. Are you theorizing the darkest scenario . Yes, we are. Evil. Mellow. Welcome to dateline. Michele and lloyd nigh rider were High School Sweethearts who tied the knot two years later and had three daughters. Their marriage didnt last but they remain devoted to their girls. Then michele was found dead in her home. At first, Police Suspected suicide. But soon the case took a chilling turn. At the heart of this mystery was a betrayal too twisted to be true, except that it is. Heres Dennis Murphy with the ultimatum. Reporter the long road to prima ballerina. The dreams of thunderous bravos, the cascade of roses begins for the youngest of dancers in a Ballet School of tutued tenyear olds. Stretching, stressing. Very disciplined. Reporter an athletic discipline of concentration and body control. Learning poise under pressure. It took a lot, especially when we were young, to stick with it. But, it was worth it. Reporter a Ballet Academy in upstate new york was where mina raj got to know her friend Karrie Neurauter. I met karrie when she was eight. She was very sweet, very bubbly personality. Reporter both of them were girly girls but wanted to grow up to be like their dads. Our dads were both engineers. So we were both gonna become engineers and be professional ballerinas on the side. Reporter and everyone could see that karrie was very close to her dad, Lloyd Neurauter. Every saturday hed not only drive his daughter to class in corning, new york, hed stay to help out. He was the only father there that was bringin the kids in the morning at that time. Reporter minas mom, cynthia, would see him on those saturdays but rarely his wife. Instead of doin the the childrens hair at home, he would always sort of bring them there and brush their hair out and and put these buns together. With some skill and art . Um, yes, and and he he definitely enjoyed the admiration of the other mothers around him. Reporter as their daughters rehearsed for the annual nutcracker, cynthia and another friend, rose coluccio, became friendly with lloyd. Lloyd was, i would say, eccentric. Always um, the center of attention. Of course, we eventually asked about his wife and he said that saturday was really her days off. Reporter lloyds wife michele had a full plate of her own. She had a masters degree in literature but chose to be a fulltime mom, homeschooling their kids and taking an active role in charity work. Here she is making thanksgiving dinner for the needy at their local church. It would be really odd to have thanksgiving at home. Just us and not be here. Thanksgiving is celebrating with the community, giving back. Reporter michele had met lloyd in high school. Her mom jeannie remembers a teenage boy who was smitten from the first date. I think she thought he was intelligent, and she could have intelligent conversations with him. So maybe a peg above the other kids in the school yard or her circle . Yes yes. Reporter the High School Sweethearts married when michele was just 20. Theyd later settle into a farmhouse in upstate new york and have three girls, karrie, the middle child. Micheles younger sister, also named karrie, admired her so much. Tell me about your sister as a mom. She always, like, wanted the best for her girls. She was always very supportive because of course when i had children, i asked her all my questions and looked up to her. I always looked up to her. Reporter though they lived coasts apart, micheles sister and her husband were close with the nieces. The oldest one really bonded with kevin. And karrie and i very much bonded. Reporter but, as with so many people, the neurauter family ran into lean times, diminished prospects, during the great recession. Lloyd moved outofstate to find work as an engineer. What happened is lloyd it was a tough time in corning, new york, and he took a job in new jersey. Reporter michele stayed behind with the girls out in the country in corning, but, the separation put a strain on the marriage. And, in time, michele and lloyd divorced. She was always positive. Gonna make the most of everything, and then one day, out of the blue, she called me and said, were divorced. Okay. Right. It was very random. Reporter after the divorce, michele sold the farm, and the kids split up. The oldest went to live with her dad in new jersey, while karrie and the youngest daughter stayed in corning with mom in a new house. But the divorce was hard on everyone. Karrie and her mom sometimes butted heads. The arguments could get heated. She was living with her mother, finishing high school, but it got more and more strained as the years as she approached her senior year. Reporter by late august 2017, karrie, the onetime ballerina, had left home and was a sophomore at rit in rochester. Her younger sister still lived with their mom. It seemed like a typical monday afternoon when a family friend came by the house to pick up the youngest for swim practice. But something looked very wrong. He called 911. Shes motionless, and im concerned. Reporter the friend said he glimpsed a shadowy female figure on the stairway. So shes just standing there, not moving . Kinda hard to tell. Its dark. Reporter something very dark had happened in that house, and when the curtain was pulled back, it would reveal a monstrous story, like something out of a greek tragedy with an ending no one could fathom. This is absolutely ghoulish. Yeah. Coming up there appeared to be a body hanging inside the door. Hanging from a banister. And somebody was missing. No 14 year old was discovered. So where is this child . That was one of the first concerns. When dateline continues. Here . Nah. Here . Nope. Here. When the middle of nowhere. Is somewhere. The allnew chevy trailblazer. Thewith acetaminophenctionzer. Fights pain in two ways. Advil targets pain at the source. While acetaminophen blocks pain signals. The future of pain relief is here. New advil dual action. But come ye back when su mom, dad. Whys jamie here . Its sunday. Sunday sing along. And he helped us get a home and auto bundle. Hes been our insurance guy for five years now. He makes us feel like were worth protecting. [ gasps ] why didnt you tell us about these savings, flo . Ive literally told you a thousand times. Oh, danny boy, the pipes, the pipes are calling im just gonna. From glen to glen im just gonna. Did you know that some aluminum free deodorants only mask odor . Secret aluminum free helps eliminate odor instead of just masking it. And is made with three times more odor fighters. With secret, odor is one less thing to worry about. Secret. Thats very common to have a gum Health Concern as well. You know, i talk to dentists every day, and theyre able to recommend sensodyne sensitivity gum. Its really good dentistry to be able to recommend one product that can address two conditions. Reporter august 28, 2017, Police Officers responded to the home of divorced mom Michele Neurauter. A friend of hers had called 911 to report a disturbing sight. There appeared to be a body hanging inside the door, about 15 to 20 feet, hanging from a banister. Reporter Corning Police chief Jeff Spaulding says his officers got in and found the body a woman with a rope tied around her neck. It was michele. Apparently a suicide. From first look, yes, it would appear as though it was a suicide. Reporter no reason to think not, huh . No. Reporter officers searched the home. They found no suicide note, and the house was empty. Daughter karrie was away at college. But the youngest, who lived there with michele, was nowhere to be found. No 14yearold was discovered. Reporter so where is this child . That was one of the first concerns. Reporter it turned out the youngest was actually with karrie at school in rochester, 100 miles away. Police learned that when karrie called them herself after a friend gave her the shocking news. They called and told me that my mom killed herself . Yeah, we are we are looking into it. Can you give me any insight into what might have happened . I dont know. I decided to go home. Reporter karrie told police she had stopped by the house that night. When i got there, my mom started freaking out. In karries words, they had a fight. Her mom went yelling and screaming. Reporter karrie told investigators she stormed out of the house, taking her teenage sister with her. Not all that unusual. Police learned that raised voices in that household were, sadly, routine. A bad divorce with kids caught in the middle. This is, as they say, a house thats known to Law Enforcement . Yes. Reporter thered been over the years, been, what, 911 calls to the location . Uh, probably in the course of two or three years, a dozen a little more than a dozen calls. Reporter so, chief, im thinking even with this brief history you have, the fragmentary history of trouble inside the house, mother daughter, somethins goin on, it does maybe give you an explanation of why shes a death by suicide. Exactly. Reporter investigators also got in touch with micheles exhusband lloyd, who lived in new jersey. He was rushing to upstate new york to be with his daughters. The last time i spoke with her, i couldnt even say. Reporter lloyd told a detective by phone he wasnt completely surprised to hear the news. He said that despite her cheery demeanor michele had actually contemplated suicide in the past. From before we were married, she made, uh she made suicide plans with high school friends. And that was something that alarmed me way back then. Reporter police continued to process the scene, while micheles body was taken to the medical examiner for autopsy. What is she finding . The words again, consistent with suicide, are used. Reporter in a round of phone calls, micheles sister out in california got the news about the suicide. When you first heard that, did it make sense in any kinda way to you, that maybe shed gotten in a bad place and i mean, i knew that she had been fighting with the girls. I i really thought, like, maybe she had a bad moment. Reporter then she had to relay the awful news to their mom. She said, michele died. And i said, no, she didnt. I said no, no, she didnt, thats a lie and dont say that. I said, dont tell dont tay say that. Reporter the friends back in corning could hardly take it in. Michele gone. And by her own hand. My mom called me. She didnt want me to see it online or on social media, before she hear i heard it from her. Reporter and you went to see her . I did. I went home. It was so shocking. Reporter as funeral arrangements began, micheles friends were haunted by a request she made just months before her death. She said, well, promise me that if anything ever happens to me, that youll look out for my daughters. And then i reassured her, naively perhaps, that she was gonna live a long life. But she was pretty persistent. And so, i said, okay. And we left it like that. Sorry. She got me with that story. [ crying ] reporter but even in their grief there was confusion, and doubt. The friends thought the michele they saw in her final days was anything but suicidal. What were her plans . Was she forwardlooking . Constantly. We were always workin on what was next. Reporter that wasnt where she was in her life . Id say shes a fighter, right. That woman was a fighter. On saturday morning, when the rest of us would be lounging around in our sweatpants, shed say, its a good day. Were gonna get up. Were gonna get dressed and were gonna make the best of it. Reporter even if michele were suicidal, they just could not see their friend hanging herself like that, in a way that her daughters could find her. I started googling means that females use for suicide. And i think it was what i could find was around 9 of females will actually hang themselves. The most popular option by far is pills. Reporter but micheles mood and statistics aside, they kept coming back to that lack of a suicide note. Michele had a masters in english as well as an mba. She was a prolific writer. Michele would have written a note of explanation. So once there was no note, i think right. Right. Yeah. We decide somethings wrong. Reporter little did they know exactly how wrong this would all turn out to be. Coming up maybe it wasnt suicide. Apparent suicide. Did that make any sense to you . My gut was tellin me, theres somethin wrong here. Maybe it was murder. Didnt seem consistent to hanging. It looked like scratch marks. Maybe shes pulling at whatever is around her neck trying to get it off. You could see her bed was pushed out of place. It appeared that there was a struggle. When dateline continues. Reporter police were investigating the hanging death of Michele Neurauter as a possible suicide. But they still needed to know more about her final weeks and days. Investigator volpe . Yup. Hey, how are ya . Good. Just cautious about how i approach a car. I dont want to startle anybody. Reporter the deceaseds exhusband lloyd, resettled in new jersey, had rushed to upstate new york after micheles body was found. Now, sitting in a police car he seemed eager to talk. How longs michele lived at at the residence over on dwight . Do you know . Its about five years. Okay. She bought that after we divorced. Reporter he told them about his early relationship with michele. We we went away to school together. We did everything together. So, i never thought like that. Like, oh, under some circumstance ill just walk away. When did you guys divorce . We divorced in august, 2012. Reporter he explained that while the divorce had been finalized years earlier their custody issues were far from settled. They were still fighting over their youngest daughter. She wanted to live with me, and her mom threw a tantrum. Reporter lloyd suggested his exwife was unstable. An emotional wreck. Michele was screaming and furious. I know of that from past behaviors that there was an occasion where michele was having a tantrum, that she would open the door and scream things down the stairs and then slam her bedroom door, and did that so many times she actually broke the doorframe from doing that. That she was just completely out of control. Reporter but lloyd admitted his information was secondhand. Hed heard the stories from his children. I dont even know if she was seeing anybody or who else she was doing things with. She really pushed me out of her life. Reporter lloyd spoke with police for over an hour. As the interview ended he had a question. When could the kids retrieve their stuff . In case i could pass a word, is there any idea when the kids get can get into the house to look for yeah. Were working on that too. Reporter if it were a simple suicide, the investigation wouldnt take long. But new york state investigator eric hurd, who was among the first on the scene, thought, not so fast. My gut was tellin me, theres somethin wrong here. Reporter it wasnt just cop intuition. There was physical evidence in his experience inconsistent with a suicide. Starting with the position of the thin nylon rope on micheles body. The way that it went around her chin did not seem consistent with a hanging. Reporter he noticed wounds on micheles head, too. On her face you you see it looks like scratch marks. Like maybe shes pulling at whatevers around her neck, tryin to get it off. Reporter and then there was micheles friend rose. Shed rushed up to the scene with something urgent to say. Apparent suicide. Did that make any sense to you . No. She had told me. Shes like , i know her. Shes friends with me. She would never do this to herself. We were just with her the other night. We were havin a great time. She wouldnt do this. Its not exactly evidence, but it its a piece. Its not evidence at that point. Reporter and when police formally interviewed the friends, they got a different picture of michele and the divorce. They said lloyd was the crazy one. Relentlessly badgering his exwife with dragged out custody fights. I was at their house, and i think lloyd had just pet served another petition for child custody of the younger child, and she was frustrated. Her life was looking very positive, and then this came up again. Reporter objective appraisal, or friends taking sides . Either way, they insisted michele wasnt a frazzled, outofcontrol single mom. She was making the best of a bad situation, and dealing with an ex who demeaned her for years. Basically everything she did was criticized. He made her feel she was really ugly. He made her feel that she couldnt make any right decisions. She was a lousy mother, that she couldnt do anything right. Reporter so homicide vs. Suicide . On the one hand, the nasty divorce may have given michele plenty of reasons to be depressed and want a way out. But it was a police photo of micheles bedroom that caused investigator hurd to think otherwise. You can see where her bed was pushed outta place. Reporter he spent hours poring over the pictures. Lookin at the wall and kinda zooming in, you can see things that maybe not are visible to the naked eye. Didnt jump out at you at the time . Didnt jump out at first to everybody. But it it looks like we see somethin that looks like blood on the wall. So that was concerning. Reporter blood on the wall, and a bed out of place. To hurd it pointed to only one scenario. It appeared that there was a struggle. Reporter he believed michele had been attacked. The suicide scene staged. At the house there was no sign of forced entry, nothing taken, and investigators theorized that a random intruder wouldnt bother arranging such an elaborate scene. An unknown intruder, the one armed man, doesnt figure in here either. Right . No, we never thought never thought that. Reporter no, they thought someone close to michele had to be responsible. So what do we do now is the question. Huh . Yes. Reporter it was time to go looking for suspects. Coming up investigators start with the obvious suspect, exhusband lloyd. And he had an alibi. Coming up, he said he had been to rochester to help his daughter move into college. Stayed in the hotel all night long. I think i have every receipt for the last seven days. Michele liked to save things, too. Could the mystery be solved from beyond the grave . I started finding screen shots of texts. My daughter documented everything. What was the narrative picture of what happened in her life. That she was constantly emotionally abused. When dateline continues. Youre not welcome here get out of my face hpv can cause certain cancers when your child grows up. Get in its way. Hpv can affect males and females. 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Senate judiciary chairman Lindsey Graham says on saturday evening. The confirmation hearings will begin october 12th. One month before the election. His announcement came shortly after prept President Trump officially announced judge Amy Coney Barrett will be his choice for the supreme court. She smashed glass ceilings. Now back to dateline. Welcome back to dateline. Im natalie moralemorales. A detective spotted signs of a struggle in micheles bedroom. Now investigators suspected her death was staged to look like a suicide. They were eager to have another chat with micheles exhusband lloyd. Meanwhile, a distraught Family Member was about to get a startling view into micheles final years. Here again is Dennis Murphy with the ultimatum. Reporter Michele Neurauters mother jeannie was still dealing with the loss of her elder child. And atop of that grief was a longstanding sorrow estrangement. Michele had abruptly stopped talking to her mom ten years before. I missed her, i loved her, i didnt know what was going on because we had never had a fight. If wed had a fight, and hung up on each other and you know you get over it. But we did not have that fight. Reporter jeannie didnt know exactly what had gone on in michele and lloyds marriage, but she knew shed never liked him. My husband and i are like okay she can do better than this. Why is she what does she see in him . And looking back what what makes you say that jeannie . He was arrogant from the beginning. He was always arrogant, he was full of himself. Reporter micheles sister agreed. He wanted to be like, oh, im gonna put you in your place. Did you talk to her about where how things were with her and lloyd . No. Or do you just seal that away no, i knew is that a nogo topic . Thats a nogo topic. Reporter micheles family says lloyds mywayorthehighway attitude extended to the way he disciplined the children. The doting ballet dad wanted his girls to be a little too en pointe. He kinda raised his kids with a military bearing, huh . Yes. I mean, they had to he would snap his fingers and theyd line up, and they would stand there like little soldiers. He would make them kneel with their nose to the wall, hands behind their heads, like they were being executed. Im sorry . For a minor household infraction . Yeah, like, for nothing sometimes. He would just be mad at them. Reporter after micheles death, jeannie flew out to the east coast to be with her granddaughters. Thats when she finally learned just how bad things had become for michele. It was all there in her daughters journals and boxes of court papers. I started finding court documents, and i started finding screen shots of texts. My daughter documented everything to death. What was the narrative picture that had come together for you, of what had happened in her life . That she was just constantly abused, emotionally abused um by her husband, lloyd . Uhhuh. Yes. And youd believed that hed ganged up the children against her. Uhhuh, yes. Micheles mother read how the unhappy marriage turned into an unhappy divorce. He was taking her to Court Reporter the acrimony between lloyd and michele had been well known to micheles friends for years theyd seen it up close. If her death was a murder, the history of that marriage and divorce told them exactly what happened. When asked at the scene what i thought, my answer was, i think he did it. The husband. The ex. Uhhuh. Absolutely. No problems. Reporter the very same lloyd who had calmly and clearly volunteered so much information to investigators. She was just completely out of control. Demeanor, what are you hearing in the . Oh, he was very cooperative. Would you like me to move up a little . No, youre fine. Are you sure . Im fine. Reporter police had reason to believe michele died sometime after midnight saturday going into sunday. So the question where was lloyd . Tell me the way you came up. Sure. To go to rochester. Reporter hed told police hed driven up from new jersey to rochester to help karrie move into her college apartment. She couldnt fit everything in the car, so i had totes back in princeton that i had to bring. So when i arrived on saturday, i went to the apartment and i unloaded my car and her stuff her, karries apartment. Yeah, karries apartment. Reporter and then he said he spent the night in a nearby hotel. 11 to 7 you are in your hotelish . Yes. By yourself . Yes. He said he had been to rochester to help her his daughter move into college. Spent the night in the hotel. Stayed in the hotel all night long. Reporter lloyd said he drove home the next day. And only returned to the corning area after micheles body had been found. He could account for all of his movements. I think i have every receipt for the last seven days. Reporter now they needed to put lloyds timeline under a microscope. Police pulled his phone records, and guess what . His cell never left the hotel that night. So far so good. And the story told by the phone meant he couldnt be an hour and a half south in corning as michele was about to die. So police had to consider others in micheles inner circle. And that included the last known person to have seen michele alive. It was someone whod admitted in a phone call with police to fighting with michele that very night her middle daughter, karrie. When i got there, my mom started freaking out. And she was yelling and and then she got quiet so i waited to see if she would come out and talk to me. I know youre upset, but if you can take a breath for me so that i can can understand what youre saying a little better. Yeah, yeah okay. Im sorry. Reporter sure karrie sounded distraught. But the officer who first took down her account of that night didnt like what he was hearing. He said right away hes like, somethings not right. What was he referring to . Karrie specifically was not tellin the truth about what happened that night. Reporter coming up you could see shes at the house for two hours. Longer than we anticipated her to be there. What was karrie hiding . The younger sister says, i get woken. It sounds like somebodys in the house attacking my mom. Her sister comes in the house, tells her we got to leave. Moms upset. Shes really mad. We got to go back to rochester. Youre coming with me. Reporter when dateline continues. Family they can use l. Charmin ultra soft is twice as absorbent so you can use less. Enjoy the go with charmin. Heres to the duers. To all the people who realize they can du more with less asthma thanks to dupixent, the addon treatment for specific types of moderatetosevere asthma. Dupixent isnt for sudden breathing problems. It can improve lung function for better breathing in as little as 2 weeks and help prevent severe asthma attacks. Its not a steroid but can help reduce or eliminate oral steroids. 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Its so cool the future of fitness is at home. The mirror. When youre through with powering through, its time for theraflu hot liquid medicine. Powerful relief so you can restore and recover. Theraflu hot beats cold. Honey, did you hear about these new geico savings . Mom . Youll get an extra 15 on top of what geico could already save you. Can i call you back . Your fathers been researching our geneology. Were vikings theres never been a better time to save with geico. Switch by october seventh for an extra 15 on car and motorcycle insurance. Hey, we lost the wifi password. Do you remember what that is . Reporter heres a truism cops dont like to be lied to. Especially cops investigating an unsolved death like that of the corning mom, Michele Neurauter. Especially if theyre suspicious that the victims 19yearold daughter is the one doing the lying. In a statement to investigators, karrie, the middle child, admitted she had arrived at her mothers house just shortly before her death. She had initially told us that she um got there and had a fight with her mom and she left. So she led us to believe this was a 15 or 20 minute stay at her moms house. Reporter the thing was, her cell phone records said otherwise. You can see that shes at the house for about two hours. A lot longer than we anticipated her to be there. Reporter so was karrie hiding something about what happened after that argument . Those who knew her best never considered karrie to be anything but honest. Family friend, rose, was one of the first people to speak with karrie after michele was found. We just sat on the phone together for about a half hour and just cried. Reporter and mina said there was no way her smart and kindhearted friend would have played any kind of role in a murder. I could never um picture her being violent. Reporter but police had a different take. They remembered there being turmoil in micheles house. All those calls to police years earlier. Had that shouting finally boiled over ending in murder . And there was an earwitness, of sorts. Karries kid sister, the 14yearold, had been sleeping downstairs. She told a detective she remembers hearing screams. The younger sister says, i get woken. It sounds like somebodys in the house attacking my mom. She used that word . Yes, she did. And then her sister comes in the house, tells her, we gotta leave. Moms upset. Shes really mad. We gotta go back to rochester. Youre comin with me. Reporter karries story was way out of whack. As hard as it was to wrap their heads around it, the detectives were coming to believe that the College Student daughter may have murdered her own mother. Unthinkable. This is her mother. You know, i just keep comin back. This is the mother. The mother. Her own mother that to me was the most chilling part of this whole thing. Reporter but if it were true, the young woman was too petite, they thought, to have pulled it off alone. Theres no way that karrie couldve physically carried out the act. If it was to be homicide, she wouldve needed some help. Reporter but from whom . They naturally looked to those closest to karrie, and who was closer than her dad, lloyd going all the way back to those Ballet School days. Cops also knew that lloyd had been in the area that weekend, helping karrie move into her college apartment. Any more detail you can tell us about things, obviously its helpful. Reporter but what about his apparently ironclad alibi, backed up by his cell phone records, that he never left his hotel that night . From 11 to 7 you are in your hotel . Yes. All right. Reporter investigator hurd sent a colleague to spool through the Hotel Security cam footage. He goes, i dont like what im seein. It looks like that dad and karrie left together about 10 00 that night. Reporter what was that . The dad and the daughter together . Leaving . And when they fastforwarded the Hotel Security video, there was Lloyd Neurauter seen again walking through the parking lot at 6 30 am. , more than eight hours later. Are you theorizing the darkest scenario, that the dad and daughter are in on this thing together . Yes, we are thats a monstrous theory. Yes, it is. Reporter the authorities held their cards close to the vest. None of their suspicions leaked out. Steuben County District attorney brooks baker was consulted as investigators got search warrants so they could tap father and daughters cell phones. Where are you now, sweetie . Im still down at the dennys rest stop. What are you hoping for . What were hoping for is some conversation between the two of em, about the death, about money. Hi. Hi, sweetie. Sorry i didnt get your call right away. And . We didnt get much. Reporter investigators decided to ratchet up the pressure, whats called, in cop talk, tickling the wire. Hi, is this Karrie Neurauter . Yes, this is she. Wed have an investigator from corning p. D. Call karrie and say, hey, i wanna talk to you. And the hope is that will get a conversation going between lloyd and his daughter. I didnt know if you had time to meet up with me, i know its break time and i didnt know what your plans were. Yeah, would we be able to talk on monday . Okay. Reporter with her wire tickled, would karrie take the bait and call her father with the latest . She did exactly that. Hi, sweetie. Hey, i just got off the phone with officer whatever from the Corning Police department. He called and told me i just like to meet with people facetoface as well. You know i id like you to not do that if you can avoid it. Tell them im sorry ive got a counseling appointment back in new jersey tonight. Ive gotta get to my counseling appointment. And tell them this has been really hard on you. Yeah. [ laughter ] could you cry . I might. We call it the lie and cry conversation, because its when all our hackles kind of went up. Hes telling his daughter to lie. Hes telling his daughter to lie to the investigator. Lie to him. And and by the way, if that doesnt work, can you cry . You cry and say, im sorry, i have to go. God, it would be nice if it was then just over. That would be the dream. Well, thats really all i got to suggest right now. Reporter by now investigators had a working theory of the crime. That it was probably not the dad helping the daughter, but the reverse. That dad, they theorized, was the mastermind. But authorities lacked hard proof of anything. They needed more. After two more months of tapping the phones, they decided showtime had arrived. They would simultaneously appear unannounced to interview both karrie and lloyd in separate locations and confront the two directly. In late january 2018, like commandos synchronizing their watches, they swooped down. In new jersey, two fbi agents appeared at lloyds workplace. He agreed to meet with them in a conference room. The agents gave him an update on the case. The medical examiner has determined it to be a homicide, not a suicide. Oh, my god. And in conjunction with that, i want to ask you, if karrie had something to do with her death . No, i just dont think karrie has it in her to kill another person. Can you think of something . Whether it was things get out of hand, she gets in a fight, its a selfdefense thing. I mean, can you see that happening with karrie . Its hard to imagine, but can i picture it . I cant. And instead of jumping and sayin, no, this is my daughter, she wouldnt do Something Like that but can i picture it . Its the longest pause in the entire time he talks. I cant. So, hes not poppa lyin protecting his cubbies here . No, hes hes how do i sort of toss her under the bus kind of thing . Reporter lloyd had to know the walls were closing in. Still, the interview ended with handshakes. Well, we appreciate you sitting down with us and interrupting your day and everything. Well, my goal is to help. Reporter the agents allowed lloyd to leave after his very bad day at the office. Then they tailed him and listened in as he phoned his daughter. How are you . Not great. Im not great either. Reporter 250 miles away in syracuse, new york, daughter karrie had also been confronted by police. And she, too, had had a very bad day. What did she tell her inquisitors . Coming up oof one staged suicide, would this one be real . There he is on the ledge. Hes gonna jump. Hes got his phone. And he wants to talk to his daughter. When dateline continues. At carvana, we have only one standard when it comes to the quality of our cars the highest. Its why only 1 in 10 cars we look at qualify to sell on our site. If its been in a reported accident, we wont sell it. And at our stateoftheart facilities our ase certified mechanics roll up their sleeves and get to it. 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Reporter karrie quickly caved and admitted shed lied. Her dad had been there with her. Who went in the house first . My dad went in the house well, we went into the house at the same time. Okay. And then wait, no. Thats a lie. Im sorry. I went in the house and like scoped it out, i guess. Reporter and there was more. My dad went upstairs in my moms room and then she was like, what are you doing, why are you here . And she was yelling, she was like, why, why . Reporter then it started to tumble out, the nightmare story. She told investigators her dad, drowning in alimony and Child Support payments, had given her an ultimatum him or her mom. It was something along the lines of, um you know, hes out of money. He cant pay rent. He cant pay for stuff. Basically he was going to kill himself or there was this way to make it so he wouldnt kill himself which was killing my mom. Reporter why at the crossroads did she decide to help . She says she saw no other alternative. When did you guys first discuss that it was supposed to look like a suicide . Um, the first time he told me about this. Reporter then she told the investigators what her father did. Then he was going to put a towel in her mouth so shed be quiet. And then put the rope around her neck and strangled her. Reporter karries job was to disable any security devices and to distract her younger sister, asleep downstairs, totally unaware of what was going on. Yeah, she woke up. So i had to take her out. I was freaking out. I didnt know what was going on. Im like, oh, my god. And then i put her in my car. Now we have the framework of the story together now. I mean, what a bombshell in the rooms and the ears that are listening to this thing. At at that point, were shellshocked. Reporter at last the authorities had enough to arrest lloyd. Hed left work in new jersey, seemingly unnerved by his chat with the fbi, and authorities had tailed him as he drove to the top of a fivestory parking garage, got out of his car, and sat on a ledge. Apparently suicide seemed a better option than prison. And there he is out on the ledge. Reporter on the ledge . Five stories down into concrete, threaten to kill himself. Reporter so, hes gonna be a jumper . Hes gonna jump. Hes got his phone, and he wants to talk to his daughter. Reporter after a 90minute negotiation, a homicide detective tackled lloyd and put him under arrest. Back in new york, authorities read his daughter karrie her rights, too. Murder charges for both. Micheles mom, across the country, was in disbelief. I just said, no, not karrie, not karrie, please not karrie. Reporter the friends in corning couldnt absorb it either. Him, of course but her, too . The little ballerina theyd watched grow up now charged with murder. Thats the unbelievable part. We love this child. Reporter as time has passed, micheles friends are starting to learn of a familys brainwashing. Of a controlling father who poisoned his daughters minds with the drip, drip of a phony story that went on for years that their mother was no good. Crazy. That theyd all be better off with her out of the picture. A fathers manipulation that went all the way back to ballet class days and probably earlier. What flashed back to me was that time i saw a sevenyearold karrie standing front and center, shaking. And i personally believe it was this accumulation of control. And i i felt that she had been brainwashed. Reporter and looking back, micheles mom is now certain it was lloyd who was behind the unexplained rift with her daughter. I think that hed already started alienating her, man manipulating her mind. Reporter putting a false narrative in her head about who she was and who her people were . I have often called him jim jones. Its almost cult leaderesque, what he has done to karrie and his and her sisters. Reporter it appeared that father and daughter would be tried together. Both entered pleas of not guilty. But as the case moved forward, karrie was in her cell, removed from her father. And it was as though the spell was broken. Karrie flipped and decided to testify against her father. At what point does your dad first approach you with this plan . Reporter now she gave a second, even more detailed, confession and prepared to be the star witness at her fathers murder trial. And a new wrenching detail she had helped move her mothers dead body. We dragged her around the corner and he tied the rope to the to the one prong of the banister and lifted her up and put her over [ crying ] threw her over the side. Sorry. No, thats okay. Reporter but her dads trial never happened. Lab results came back showing the exhusbands dna was all over micheles bed clothes in that house he claimed never to have been inside. In october of this year, 2018, Lloyd Neurauter pleaded guilty to murder one. I was stunned. He gave it up. He told us exactly what happened. Reporter lloyd gave a full statement, owning up to being the master manipulator that friends and family said theyd witnessed all along. He described the process by which he would abuse michele in front of his girls, belittle her, convince them that she was insane, that she was dangerous. Hes a narcissist, the world revolves around him. His password to his to all of his accounts was all my girls love me. Reporter oh, youre kidding. Thats no, thats how he operated. Ultimately, that power led karrie to say yes because, you know, dad says it its so. If dad says its so, it must be so. He was sentenced to life without parole. Any last words lloyd . Reporter District Attorney baker has allowed karrie to plead to a lesser charge of manslaughter which carries a she was sentenced one to three years. The d. A. Sees the daughter as a victim, too. You want to be sympathetic because shes a sympathetic character. She deserves sympathy for where she was. But shes still guilty of murder, and thats thats the and justice has to happen. Reporter and friend cynthia cant shake that emotional conversation she had with michele just before she died the one where she promised to take care of her daughters. If anything happens to me yeah. That came back very strong for me. Reporter so cynthia makes weekly visits to see karrie in jail, keeping a promise and trying to help a bewildered young woman find her way through this. Shes very remorseful. She misses her mother very much. And she has said that her mother would know what to do right now. She would know how to help me. Reporter still grieving over the death of her daughter, micheles mom is now facing another kind of sorrow coming to terms with this unthinkable crime and the granddaughter who said yes to a fathers deadly ultimatum. She is a human being. Shes still a child. She might be considered an adult but i hear the child. Reporter and yet she killed your daughter. And she killed my daughter. Shes a victim. I struggle with this. I struggle. I ask michele i say, michele, what do you want me to do . What do i do with this child of yours . And i honestly believe that my daughter would want her to be accepting responsibility for what she did, and she is. I dont know if i forgive her, but i understand her. Thats all for this edition of dateline. Im natalie morales. Thank you for watching. Im craig melvin. Im natalie morales. This is dateline. She was brave. She was incredibly brave. Why didnt i know that she needed me and that she was alone and that she was hurt . Nothing was the same after that. Nothing. Reporter they found her in the soccer field. The Straight Arrow student killed by a single bullet. I just hit the floor. I remember the pain. Everytime i talk about it the pain comes rushing back