Be an assault by President Trump, who has set a low bar for joe biden. Is President Trump underestimating biden . Could the trump jamming backfire . Joining me now, weekend today cohost Peter Alexander in cleveland. Neera tanden from the center for American Progress who helped joe biden prepare against his Vice President ial debate against sarah palin. First, peter, what are you hearing from both campaigns as we get closer to tonights big showdown . Andrea, i want to take you into the room, very quickly, if i can, to give you a sense of what this room looks like. On the left, thats the lectern that President Trump will use. The one on the right is for joe biden. Theyre flipping a coin which theyve already done to determine that President Trump will receive the first question as part of this 90minute debate. You made the point about coronavirus testing. That means no awkward elbow bump, no handshake at all, just 80 to 100 people in the room here. But to the politics of this evening, ive been speaking to some of the president s aides and those close to joe biden as well. From the president , they say hes going to try to sort of play the role, keep it steady, but look for him to go after joe biden on a series of topics including bidens sons business doings. A Bipartisan SenateCommittee Found no wrongdoing by the former Vice President. For biden, the focus will be, according to his aides, to try not to take the president s bait, to speak directly to the American Voters and focus on key issues in their minds, not just the president s record but also the coronavirus pandemic. And andrea, one thing thats striking that sort of plays into that message from joe biden is this very venue here on the campus of the cleveland clinic. This very room a matter of months ago hosted 300 beds for coronavirus patients. It ultimately did not need to be used. But it demonstrates how over the course of the last several months weve really seen this unprecedented time with more than 206,000 americans now dead, andrea. Indeed, that grim, terrible toll. Neera, the Biden Campaign says theyre candidate is going to stay on message, not take the bait from President Trump. But can joe biden really let it go . There will be perhaps dozens of attacks, misstatements. We know the president s way of going after biden. Can he let all that go, just go and get past, does he risk getting bogged down in details . I do think that if you have watched donald trump before, you recognize that he wants to rattle his opponent and he tried that with hillary and he will definitely try that tonight. I do think whats unique about this experience for joe biden, hes debated at this level before, is this is sort of unprecedented moment to speak directly to the American People. And so its really an opportunity for people who dont know his plans to deal with the virus or what hell do on the economy to speak very directly to that. I know that trump will try to, you know, bring joe biden down into a mud fight. But i think its really incumbent on joe biden to recognize hes actually not talking to donald trump, and he is talking directly to the American People. You remember well the perils for incumbents, 2012, the debate of obama versus romney, made the race tighten. Will it be enough for trump to say, on this big issue thats unloaded on him in the last 48 hours, that he didnt pay any taxes for years and years and then only paid 750 the first year of his presidency and the year before, is it going to be enough for him to just say, i was smart not to pay taxes, as he said to hillary clinton, memorably, when he said thats probably why he didnt pay taxes when he was going bankrupt in atlantic city. What we know, andrea, about the president s approach when this comes to these sort of things, generally he doesnt spend a lot of time defending himself or trying to explain. He will probably say one very brief thing and move on. Im reminded of, in 2012, when governor romney had to respond to the 47 tape, you may remember that was a Critical Development in that campaign. And during debate prep we spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the right answer, what the right angles were, what the right pivots were. President trump doesnt approach debate prep in that way. Arguably the reporting suggests he hasnt done any prep. I think his strategy on this is going to be similar to the strategy weve seen with other scandals, other issues the president has faced, which is not say very much about it, look to deflect, look to attack. Thats when he believes hes at his strength. And i would fully expect that same strategy to be executed upon tonight. He can always say fake news or a hoax, two favorite responses. Neera, so many debates are about a singular moment or phrase. Here are a few that we remembered. Governor clinton, thank you. We have a question right here. Yes, how has National Debt personally affected each of your lives . For every dollar that i propose to spend on education, he spends 5 on a tax cut for the wealthiest 1 . Those are very clear differences. Governor . The man is practicing fuzzy math again. There is differences. Im going to fix it because i agree with you, premiums have gotten too high, copays, deductibles, Prescription Drug costs. Ive laid out a series of actions that we can take to try to get those costs down. But here is what i dont want people to forget, when were talking about reigning in the cost which has to be the highest priority of the next president. Now, presumably donald trump is not going to loom over joe bidens shoulder, nor one benefit of covid. Neera, what about that . I think that joe biden, who has done these debates before, who has debated sarah palin, who debated paul ryan, recognizes that hes on camera all the time. And his facial expressions and his responses, his body language, is pretty critical to this process. But i also think that with covid and the maelstrom of news that donald trump breeds every day, this is a moment where joe biden can really connect to the people about what hes going to do to make their lives better. I think thats a real opportunity. Its also an opportunity to hold donald trump accountable for his failures, the fact that 200,000 people have died in this country from the coronavirus when so many fewer people have died in other countries. Thats a real opportunity for biden. Nera tanned en, lahnee chen, Peter Alexander, thanks all. Joining me now, cindy mccain, a new member of joe bidens transition advisory board, and of course wife of republican president ial nominee from 2008 john mccain. Cindy, congratulations, i understand theres a new grandchild, making egan had a b. Yes, liberty sage was born last night. And youre with us today, a beautiful name, im sure a beautiful baby from a beautiful mom. Thanks for joining us. You have a unique understanding of how a candidate prepares for a president ial debate. Do you think joe biden can let these attacks roll off his back . I think joe bidens purpose tonight is to talk directly to the American People and let them know where he stands on what he believes and where he feels he can lead this country if elected president. Hes up against an opponent that has a very special relationship with the truth. So i think as long as he focuses on what is at stake here, and thats the American People, then i think hell do well. Weve all seen him in action, we know what he can do. Hes a good debater. And i believe hes going to be a good president. Turning to obamacare, which is a centerpiece of joe bidens debate strategy and his campaign strategy, especially because its survival is about to be argued before the Supreme Court only days after the election, your husband memorably cast that thumbs down, his last vote, to stop President Trump from repealing it. Can you share what went into his thinking at such a critical moment in his career . Well, the reason john cast the down vote for it is because there was no better plan at that point. The republicans just wanted to repeal it at the time and john did not feel that that was appropriate, since we had nothing to replace it with. Well see what the Supreme Court says. I think whatever occurs in this campaign will be not just important but its the opportunity for this newlyelected President Biden to right the ship. Were in a very difficult time right now and we need someone thats going to not only tell the American People the truth, but also remind the American People whats good, that this president has integrity, he has decency, he works together, weve all seen the way he worked with my husband on issues. He can compromise. He can do the things that are right for the country. And thats really whats at stake right now. Youve spoken in the past about the president s that the president made to the atlantic calling American World war i casualties losers and suckers, years after attacking gold star families. How do you think that affects the voters . Youre part of a legendary military family and a military mom as well. I think i can pretty well speak for the American Families who have been a part of service to our country. And that is, its repulsive. These young men and women, many of them gave the ultimate sacrifice, are not losers or suckers. They are indeed heroes. That includes my own family but more importantly, the families of every other Service Member around. That to me just replicates and talks about a lack of understanding for what the military represents, and too with what every Service Member, not just in the military but in other serviceoriented areas, are doing. Its a lack of empathy. Its a lack of kindness. Its also a lack of really understanding what this country is all about. I want to ask you about the politics of all of this. Youve shunned politics for so long. Coming out for joe biden as a republican and how you think it might affect suburban women, many of whom might still, according to the people who we have out talking to them, are still looking at their 401 k s, still think that donald trump according to the polling is ahead of joe biden on the economy which is a big issue. Well, i think theres a lot of women, not necessarily suburban women but women in general, out there that may be on the fence and theyre not really sure, you know, which way to go and perhaps are really studying both candidates. I think i hope what i do is give them the courage to perhaps step over the line and cast a vote for joe biden. I believe the reason i am here is because i want this country to be a better place. I want our elected representatives to be people that do have empathy and kindness and do care about the American People. And i think hopefully i represent some of that and hopefully people will perhaps look at what ive done and maybe take the step forward and vote for joe biden. Thanks again to you, the senate is at a critical turning point with a Supreme Court justice and theres a lot at stake here, the world seems to be turning upside down. We appreciate you coming and sharing your insights. Again, congratulations on liberty sage, the beautiful new mccain. Thank you. Thanks to you. Thank you. And reality bites. How the apprentice helped donald trump amass a fortune of millions but it still didnt get him out of financial freefall. Is it safe to send children back to school . New reporting from the New York Times about how the white house pressured the cdc to soften its medical advice. Former member of the White House Task force olivia troye joining me. Limu emu doug you know limu, after all these years its the ones that got away that haunt me the most. [ squawks ] cause youre not like everybody else. Thats why Liberty Mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. What . Oh, i said. Uh, this is my floor. Nooo only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Beautiful. But when i started cobra kai, the lack of control over my business made me a little intense. But now i practice a different philosophy. Quickbooks helps me get paid, manage cash flow, and run payroll. And now im back on top. With koala kai. Hey more mercy. Save over 30 hours a month with intuit quickbooks. The easy way to a happier business. I was seriously in trouble. I was billions of dollars in debt. I used my brain. I used my negotiating skills and i worked it all out. Ny mu company is bigger than it ever was and its stronger than it ever was and im having more fun than i ever had. Donald trump in 2004 launching the apprentice which gave him the reputation as a brilliant businessman on which he ran for president. In reality, according to the New York Times, the almost half a billion dollars he earned from the show rescued him from past financial ruin and he used that money to go on a buying spree of unprofitable Golf Properties using those losses to avoid paying taxes for years to come. Also according to the times, hes personally on the hook for 400 million of loans that come due in a few years. Chuck rosenberg started his year as a federal prosecutor in the criminal section of the tax division of doj. Chuck, so good to see you. You are a tax expert. His tactics are so aggressive, from what weve read. What alarm bells would go off for investigators of possible fraud . We know that the manhattan d. A. Is looking into this very thing. Sure. Not surprisingly, andrea. Look, tax avoidance, minimizing your taxes are perfectly lawful. Tax evasion is a crime, its unlawful. The New York Times reporting has been absolutely brilliant. What you cant tell, though, from the face of the reporting is whether its lawful tax avoidance or unlawful tax evasion. Frankly, it could be a little bit of both. There are things in the reports from the New York Times that are deeply troubling. Much of the president s wealth was built on his own branding, using his name attached to several in some cases Shady Enterprises including something called multilevel marketing scheme, really a fancy way of saying a ponzi scheme. And hes in deep debt. As you pointed out, more than 400 million in loans coming due very shortly. So it appears to be a bit of a house of cards. Again, maybe not illegal, but at best unseemly and perhaps illegal. And theres that 73 million tax refund that he claimed and received, starting a 2010 audit battle with the irs. He paid 750 in federal income tax, according to the times, in 2016. Households earning 30 to 40,000 a year paid 2,380 on average. That is a striking mismatch. Absolutely, it is. Now, again, it may be lawful. He had massive losses in earlier years. Irs rules, which are cumbersome and byzantine, to say the least, allow taxpayers to use those losses in previous years to offset income in subsequent years. But without getting all taxy on you, here is the thing, andrea. The president has criticized the New York Times reporting. Hes called it a hoax, not surprisingly. But theres a really simple solution. He has said he cannot release his tax returns because theyre under audit. That is a lie. Let me be clear. That is a lie. There is nothing that prevents him from releasing his tax returns. If the New York Times has it wrong, the president can show us why. Hes failed to do so and he should be held to account for that. There are a lot of personal deductions that also seem strange, to say the least. 70,000 for hair color and his haircuts. The millions and millions in money to ivanka and the adult sons for consultant fees when they were also officials within the trump enterprise. Writing off those kinds of expenses as business expenses . Right, a very aggressive use of deductions. Again, theres a lawful way to do it, a legitimate business expense is deductible, theres no question about that. But when youre paying consulting fees, for instance, to your own child who is also on the Management Board of your own company, that seems to be improper. Again, if you want to show that tax return is false and illegally so and intentionally so, you need all the underlying work papers, you need the profit and loss statements, you need the bank statements, and you need to talk to everyone who compiled the returns to know what they were told and what they understood and what directions they got perhaps from mr. Trump. So on its face you cant tell if its unlawful. But to your point, andrea, it looks awfully bad. Chuck rosenberg, thank you so much. We really appreciate your expertise. And its great to see you today. New revelations also about how the white house tried to pressure the cdc on school reopenings. How a former aide to Vice President pence tried to shield the agency and is now speaking out. Olivia troye left the white house at the end of july and joins me next. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Andrea mitchl reports on msnbc. Frustrated that clothes come out of the dryer wrinkled . 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Today as parents around the country are wrestling with whether inclassroom learning is safe for their kids, new reporting by the New York Times today on white house pressure over the summer to get the cdc to play down the risks of sending their children back to school. A witness who was staffing the task force before she quit at the end of july over the overall handling of the pandemic is olivia troye, former Homeland Security and intelligence adviser to Vice President pence. Oliv olivia, its good to see you again, thanks for being with us. This new reporting says you were repeatedly asked by marc short, the Vice President s chief of staff, to pressure the cdc to produce charts and reports that showed a decline in covid among young people. Youre quoted as saying you regret being complicit in that effort. Describe what happened from your vantage point. Hi, andrea, thank you for having me on your show again. This is something that i faced and struggled with repeatedly in my tenure while serving on the Covid Task Force for the Vice President. This is something that went on behind the scenes. This is just actually one example of that type of situation where we were tasked internally to find Additional Data that played more in favor of the narrative of what the senior politicals in the white house and the president wanted to relay. In this specific instance, this had to do with fighting data that was displayed in a certain way that showed that perhaps people under the age of 18 were less susceptible to covid or, you know, were less likely to be at risk. Unfortunately this played into the pressure on the cdc and these guidelines. And there is a whole effort behind the scenes that happened to include people from omb and across other interagency players internally who weighed in on what the cdc was saying. Its something thats weighed on me still today because this is one of the most egregious things i saw happen firsthand and as a National Security professional, that is just something that crosses a line. This is peoples children, families. This is impacting people still today. And at one point, they went so far as to get the cdc to incorporate an hhs Mental Health study about the negative effects of staying at home, which everyone acknowledges is a reality, and actually deborah birx, who you admire, joined that effort. There is an email obtained by the New York Times where dr. Birx asks cdc director dr. Redfield to include some of the guidance from that agency into the intro to their guidelines. And it actually took place. Wasnt this wrong . You know, i think this is another example of the task force doctors and experts facing political pressure inside the white house every single day and how this dynamic coming from the president from the very top was pitting these doctors constantly against each other, trying to navigate this dynamic on trying to do the right thing but figuring out how you survive in this environment when you know that if not you, if you dont get up and fight, then who . Then you end up with somebody else who isnt willing to take a stand every now and then and you pick your battles. Although im not privy directly to what happened in that conversation, unfortunately i dont have any insight on that specific communication, i can imagine that dr. Birx was feeling extreme pressure probably from people within her own very office, which i saw her face firsthand. And im sure dr. Redfield was on the receiving end, struggling with it as well. Ive gotten to know dr. Birx personally. I have seen her struggle. I have seen her take some serious hits from within the white house. And my heart goes out to every Single Member of the task force who is still there. I know that it is still hard today. I have been there morally, personally, on a level thats still hard to talk about today. I know they are continuously struggling and trying to do the right thing while they constantly get this pressure and bullying from inside. Until youre in the situation, its very hard to really understand how hard it is when you know in the back of your head that americans lives are at risk and this is continuing to happen. At one point, according to the times, the white house prepared slides downplaying the virus effects on children, boosting the importance of reopening schools, saying that children could not be infected even though the president was well aware, told bob woodward he knew that young people could be affected. The times published the slides. We have one slide here saying children are unlikely to spread the virus unless they display covid19 symptoms that the rate of infection among children and from students to teachers has been shown to be very low. The cdc obtained to this presentation and it never was made public. Are you witness to the fact that there were attempts like this to distort the science and that there were times when the Task Force Members did manage to push back . Yes, absolutely. And i think unfortunately in this case, i mean, i would say strike one up, one win for the cdc for overcoming this effort. I saw this repeatedly on slides that were tailored to fit a certain narrative. And sometimes i saw people like dr. Redfield or dr. Birx and others on the task force, including actually at times, you know, the Task Force Leader himself, the Vice President , where they were blindsided by slides or developments showing up that they could not necessarily have been on the same page with and had to push back on. So i am grateful that these slides actually never made it out. On the day that our report with you first aired, your first tv interview, marc short went on msnbc afterwards and said that you had a vendetta against President Trump and that you left the white house because the strain was too much for you to do the job. I want to give you a chance to respond to that. You know, i know the truth and reality of the situation and what was happening behind the scenes. I know that i worked very long days and i stood by these Task Force Members. I dont think that anybody inside the white house could say that i didnt do my job and do it well. I was very dedicated, unwaveringly, and at times, i mean, you know, to marc i would say, you know the truth. I spent a lot of late nights. And there were times when i tried calling you at night and you wouldnt pick up the phone. And there were other Task Force Members on the call with me, staying up until late at night trying to do the right thing. Olivia troye, thanks for being with us. Again, we really appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thank you, andrea. President trump is on the hook for more than 400 million of debt. But whom does he owe . And is it a National Security threat as nancy pelosi suggested . This is Andrea Mitchell reports. Well hear more on that coming up. Youre watching msnbc. Undred thd dollar student debt. Two hundred and twentyfive thousand dollars in debt. Ah, sofi literally changed my life. It was the easiest application process. Sofi made it so theres no tradeoff between my dreams and paying student loans. Student loans dont have to take over for the rest of your life. Thank you for allowing me to get my money right. One of special counsel robert miles an houruellers le prosecutors says President Trumps finances should have been investigated as part of the russia probe amid bombshell revelations from the New York Times that House Speaker nancy pelosi told me are a National Security matter. Andrew weissmann was one of muellers prosecutors and the author of where law ends, just out today. Andrew, thanks for joining us today. I want to ask you why the decision was made not to fully investigate Donald Trumps finances. Great question, obviously quite timely in light of the New York Times reporting. I think the first thing that people need to understand is, for 22 months we were investigating somebody who had an unusual power, and that is he had the power to fire us. Ive prosecuted mobsters and enron executives, and those can be tough cases. But the people youre looking at dont have that power to pull the plug on your investigation. So early on, i describe in the book how we issued a subpoena to deutsche bank, and the white house called up and said, are you doing an investigation of the president s finances . Usually thats a red flag, thats something to look at. Director mueller had a tough decision to make at that initial stage of the investigation which is, do you risk being fired and thus not continuing an investigation, or do you decide lets put that off til later. And he made the decision to do the latter. And that of course led to all sorts of prosecutions. We uncovered what russia had been doing in terms of interfering with the election to try and tip the election in favor of candidate trump, of russian interference in terms of hacking the dnc. We learned that Paul Manafort had been giving polling data to a russian operative. So all sort of things came out of the investigation. Where i take issue with the decision is that we didnt revisit it later in the day. And it seemed to me that later on in the investigation, after we had proved all those things and proceeded, it was important for us at that point to do the full financial investigation that was warranted by the appointment order of the special counsel. And in fact all of us had assumed that you were doing that. We assumed that the fbi already had his tax returns, which clearly was a false assumption as well. You write in the book that lawless white house you write that our country is now faced with the problem of a lawless white house with a belief that following the rules is optional and that breaking them comes at minimal if not zero cost. And then you say about the subpoena, about what you told robert mueller, quote, what are we saying to future president s and to future investigators if we do not subpoena the president in this investigation . How can others justify the need to do so . That was really a critical, critical moment, not subpoenaing the president , just accepting his prewritten answers. I was very concerned about the precedent that was set in terms of what will the next special counsel do. They will throw back in that special counsels face what happened here. But one of the things i do in the book is try and lay out ways in which i think the special counsel rules can be amended. As you know, andrea, having being about my age, you know that these rules have changed over time from watergate to ken starr to what we have now. And i think it would be really good for congress and the department of justice to take a look at the rules under which the next special counsel operates so that the next special counsel mueller has an easier time of making those decisions and has clear guidance from those rules as to what hes supposed to do, not the least of which would be the education function. In other words, everyone had the assumption that we could in fact indict a sitting president when in fact we had to follow doj rules that we could not. People thought that we were doing a full financial investigation and our report didnt clearly lay out what we did and did not do. And i think that educational function of the special counsel rules really needs to be enhanced Going Forward so we dont have this situation arise again. Indeed. Andrew weissmann, thanks so much for your insights and congratulations on the book. Its good to see you. Debate day. Joe biden and donald trump squaring off tonight. What to watch for, what to expect. Analysis from two veterans reporters and authors, coming up next. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Youre clearly someone who takes care of yourself. So when it comes to screening for colon cancer, dont wait. Because when caught early, its more treatable. Im cologuard. Im noninvasive and detect altered dna in your stool to find 92 of colon cancers even in early stages. Tell me more. Its for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. False positive and negative results may occur. Ask your prescriber if cologuard is right for you. Im on it. Thats a step in the right direction. President trump and former Vice President biden facing off only hours from now and their first president ial debate amidst a pandemic that has caused widespread unemployment and business failures, racial tensions, and a Supreme Court battle, among other crises. Today the white house opened the Senate Campaign for judge Amy Coney Barrett who could be a decisive vote on obama and even the president ial winner if shes confirmed on President Trumps rapid schedule before the election. Reporter if judge Coney Barrett is confirmed, should we recuse herself from any electionrelated cases . No answer on that. Joining me now, New York Times chief White House Correspondent peter baker and susan glassner, staff writer at the new yorker, the coauthors of the man who ran washington the life and times of james a. Baker iii. Congratulations, this book is incredible. It is just an amazing panoply of american history. And through your reporting, deep reporting on this unique individual. Lets talk about debates, for instance. He was involved in everything in american politics, diplomacy, finance, for so many decades. Hes known for his role in several key debates. Peter, what are the expectations for tonights debate for President Trump and former Vice President biden, first of all . Well, i think that jim baker would recognize the dynamic is because donald trump needs to change the dynamics of this race. Hes losing by eight, nine, ten percentage points. Hes only got 35 days left until the election and he needs to shake things up. Nothing has changed this so far. His law and order message, Supreme Court nomination. None of these factors have changed the underlying dynamics of this race. He needs tonight to do something to change the minds and to rally his own supporters in a way he hasnt been able to do so far. Whether he can do that or not, up in the air. Thats why this debate matters so much for him. For biden, its a matter of holding on to the lead hes got. Not doing anything to mess it up, not doing anything to give ammunition to the other side. But this is the first time well see the two of them on a stage together. Thats a pretty important moment. And weve seen before in history james baker prepping Ronald Reagan for this debate against jimmy carter in 1980. Jimmy carter, of course, the incumbent. Ronald reagan viewed as a threat, a Security Threat if you will. Donald trump when he first ran, and take a look where he says there you go again, as well as, are you better off than you were four years ago, which was really a fundamental question. Thats really an important question for joe biden tonight. Well, thats right, andrea. I think that you look back at baker and his time. He knew how crucial these debates were as a moment the American Public is paying attention to. Also by the way, how difficult it is for incumbent president s as opposed to insurgent challengers. Ronald reagan had a tough time but an easier time in 1980 against jimmy k moomy carter. Baker almost got in trouble when he screwed up his 1984 initial debate against mondale. Reagan went on to recover and to win in a landslide reelection victory but he didnt do very well. And theres a long history. Remember, even barack obama did not do very well in his first debate against romney when he was running for reelection. Donald trump has famously been saying he doesnt care very much about preparing for tonights debate. He hasnt been closeted doing it very much, and you know, it will be interesting to see, he didnt really have any primary debate season this time. You had no significant challengers, whereas joe biden went through the rigor of a whole bunch of debates. Many of them cacophonous. Well see if trump is ready for it. Many incumbents arent. And then the Supreme Court. Which is, you know, a latebreaking, big issue, of course, with the death of ruth bader ginsburg, the appointment last weekend of Amy Coney Barrett and her appearance already in the senate today, this rapid timetable. Peter, President Trumps nominee for the Supreme Court is very, very conservative but has the appeal, you know, a mom of seven schoolaged children, all the rest theyve been portraying her as, how would that compare to the way baker helped president reagan choose sandra day oconnor, somebody who was more middle of the road and very confirmable as the first woman on the court . Well, thats exactly right. People forget that Ronald Reagan put the very first woman on the Supreme Court. It was sandra day oconnor. And baker helped steer him to her as a more moderate choice that would reach out across the aisle. This is the difference between then and now, right . Bakers era and todays era. The incentive was to reach out and get consensus, get somebody out there who would appeal to the other party. Today the incentive seems to be the opposite direction. Get somebody who is so, you know, powerfully conservative that would rouse and rally your own base, even at the expense of losing basically every democrat, every member of the other party. Thats not seen as a virtue. Bipartisan consensus is out the window. Its all about pushing forward somebody as far to the, you know, extreme of your party as you can. In bakers era, it was the exact opposite. To the two of you, james baker was proudest of his role as a diplomat and all of that he achieved with global relationships. The end of the cold war. The relationship at the end of the cold war and reunification of germany and raising money for the first iraq war, desert storm for the japan the alliance there. You write that james baker torn about his feelings about donald trump, called him nuts and crazy, but hes not a never trumper, and hes sticking with him so far. Can you explain that . Well, you know, weve watched him wrestle with this question as republicans around the country have wrestled with this question for the last five years. Jim baker does not like donald trump. Lets make that clear. He called him nuts to us. He call him crazy. He said in many ways what he stands for is antithetical to everything that baker has been though world stage. Baker is an internationalist. Hes a free trader. He was so offended, i remember one time right after trumps inauguration he said y does he keep saying mexico is going to pay for the wall. Mexico is not going to pay for the wall. He shouldnt do that. He was offended by the incompetence of the administration. Were at such a partisan time, i think for many republicans, not just for baker, you see them having a really hard time renouncing the idea of their party. And thats why, by the way, donald trump is running so close in the polls to joe biden. You would think with 200,000 dead americans, with the economy cratering, with all the scandals that it would be a much wider race, frankly. And i think our conversations with baker helped me to understand why its not. And i we just learned so much from doing this project. We dont study lbj as a power broke erbecause we admire him but to understand how power worked, and thats what this was. Well, susan and peter, congratulations again. We have to leave it there for now. Well keep returning to this book Going Forward. That does it for Andrea Mitchell reports. Join msnbc for complete coverage of the first president ial debate tonight starting at 8 00 eastern. Ill be joining our special Network Coverage on your local nbc station at 9 00 eastern. 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