Interview with lev parnas, with more of the president s role in the ukraine scandal, including the firing of the ambassador. I remember the president saying that the ambassador was bad mouthing him. At that point he turned around to his aide at the time and said, fire her. And dopes and babies. The explosive new book about what President Trump says in private including a shocking dressing down of the military brass at a topsecret pentagon briefing. I know more about isis than the generals do, believe me. And good day, everyone. Im Andrea Mitchell in washington where the stars are out at the white house. President trumps allstar legal team will include ken starr, the man who became famous for the investigation that led to president bill clintons impeachment. Also longtime harvard law professor alan dershowitz. Officially typical defense will be led by pat cipalone and jay sekulow. Television personalities for a televised trial. Joining me now Kristen Welker at the white house and Garrett Haake on capitol hill. Kristen, these additions, ken starr to the legal team . Reporter well i think you hit the nail on the head, andrea, the fact that the president has chosen a defense team that is no stranger to highprofile cases, cases where they are in the spotlight as well. That is what he wants. He wants to make sure that his defense is robust. And so we are getting our first look at what this team will actually look like. Pat cipallone is going to take the lead. The former florida ag, she was brought onto sort of advise the legal team several weeks ago and know shes in fact going to be a part of this defense and of course those highprofile figures, alan dershowitz, someone who weve been talking about for quite some time. We know that the president has been eyeing him. Hes been a defender in some stances of President Trump, particularly during the mueller investigation. Ken starr, of course, as you pointed out, the former independent counsel to bill clinton, investigating him. These are people who are well known to the public and theyve taken on highprofile cases. This is President Trumps way of saying he is prepared for a fight. Based on my conversations, they will spend part of this weekend reviewing the presentations ahead of next tuesday, reviewing those open oral arguments and making sure that w officially, earnest next tuesday, theyre prepared for it, andrea. And ken starr is not without investigation and of course that report, but also more recently he was for a while at least, the president of Baylor University and was fired after an independent investigation into an alleged coverup of a football scandal there involving sexual misbehavior to say the least. There were a couple of convictions. Then he became a law professor there and the chancellor resigning as law professor. But baylor has been really under a black cloud for that era. Garrett haake, coming to capitol hill, this is a very highprofile team. Alan dershowitz also controversial for some of the people and cases hes been involved with and for his very, very vigorous Public Defense of the president. Reporter i think lawmakers in both parties will be relieved by whos not on the team and some of the House Republicans who are very vocal defenders of the president during the house portion of the impeachment proceedings. Some republican senators had singled they did not want to see the same kind of attitude that was taken to the defense of the president in the house brought over on the senate floor. Democrats thought the republican defense of the president at that stage was unserious. At least now youll have serious attorneys, folks with lots of courtroom and litigation experience. Ken starr knows his way around an impeachment. Whatever his other baggage may be. Senators are helping to elevate the proceedings above what they saw in the house and i think this team is a reasonable expectation among members of both parties that this team can probably accomplish that. Garrett haake and Kristen Welker for starting us off, thanks so much. Joining us, Vermont Democratic senator pat leahy, serves on the judiciary committee, is the only senator to escort two chief justices, William Rehnquist in 1999, and john roberts on thursday to be sworn in for impeachment trials. Joins me now. First of all, your reaction so far to the way this trial is shaping up . Well, i was very interested that theyre picking ken starr. You know on your own network, donald trump called him a lunatic when he was going after bill clinton. Im looking at it as a former prosecutor. He pushed the weakest impeachment case certainly in my lifetime and now hes up here to defend the strongest impeachment case in my lifetime. Thats their choice. But its a weird choice. I know i referenced the fact that you were on that foursenator escort again this time and before for rehnquist. How is it different, if at all, this time . Well, i think that the last time we had a majority leader, minority leader to Work Together to try to make the senate with the best procedure possible because this is a solemn responsibility for all 100 senators. They want it to work. And it did. Here theres far more dysfunction in the senate. The republican leader has refused to say what hes going to recommend. Theres not that theres not that back and forth. But several of the senator senators in both parties would like to see it done the way it should be and follow the constitution. Thats why i was filed to escort both chief Justice Rehnquist and chief roberts in, and i trust that both john roberts will be objective the same way chief Justice Rehnquist was. He was quoted as saying that his job was to do nothing and he did it very well. I think thats yeah he had a good sense of humor. But i know how hard he worked to prepare for it. I know how much he studied. He knew all the precedents that were raised for the off the top of his head. He was going back into the historical precedents. I think both are well prepared to do what they should do. As a senator whos obviously going to be a juror and have a vote, how do you feel about the whole argument over witnesses . Should the democrats push really hard for witnesses like john bolton who obviously has firsthand knowledge according to all of the testimony. Saying he called what Rudy Giuliani was going to do a drug deal. He has firsthand knowledge of what went on with ukraine which is central to at least, you know, article i of the impeachment articles. Even if the republicans insist, okay, if you do that, were going to go after hunter biden. They go after womhomever the want. But mulvaney and bolton know what was going on. We got to call them. During the clinton trial, the most important people had been deposed, before grand juries. We had hours upon hours of testimony under oath from all of them and we still did depositions of three of them. The republicans picked the start of ohio and the democrats picked me, both former prosecutors, to do the depositions. Everybody, republican and democrat, thought it was done fairly. Here we have no information from john bolton or from Mick Mulvaney or from a number of other people who were closely involved and then you see this devastating gao report yesterday, a nonpartisan report that says in effect the president did not follow the law. That had to go through Mick Mulvaney. Didnt follow the law as far as ukraine was concerned. There are some tremendous questions about the safety of america, the safety of our allies and the bowing down to russia. We need these witnesses. I also want to ask you about the release of a very stable genius new book by reporters from the washington post. And this has to do with a meeting in the tank in 2017 where where former secretary mattis, tillerson, the former chairman of the joint chiefs were trying to brief the president in terms that they thought he would be willing to take, graphic terms, about why we have relationships, why we have alliances, why we have bases overseas. And he got angry and angrier according to those who were present and in this book and said, i want to win. We dont win any wars anymore. We spend 7 trillion. Everybody else got the oil. Were not winning anymore. Also, you know ive read and that he was in a rage. He was angry. He wasnt taking it in. He had been course and cavalier. Youve seen these experts. He bell lowed. And they have not been reported until now and he said i wouldnt go to war with you people, he told the assembled brass, including jim mattis. He barked youre a bunch of dopes and babies. I just wanted to put that in front of our audience. Ive read the excerpts. Ive talked to a lot of the people who were there. Without going into specifics, i found nothing in those excerpts that seem to be anything but factual. I think it is very factual. I think there was a concern that heres a man who used a bogus doctors bone spur analysis to get out of being drafted, not once but several times, and saying that he knows more than the people who have actually been in combat, have risked their lives for this country. I know that they tried to President Trump has very little sense of history. Has not read any history books, i know that they tried to make the briefing as simple as possible. Using some graphics and colored lines and so on. But even so, what he said was as though he had no idea what alliances we entered into after world war ii or why we did or why we tried to keep europe and the United States safe. The people who were there were stunned. I know that for a fact and everything ive read in this these excerpts of the book appears very accurate to me from what ive heard. Senator pat leahy, a juror, of course, next week. Thanks for coming in today. Thank you. And coming up next, pompeo and circumstance. The secretary of state responding for the first time to lev parnass allegations that he was told multiple times to fire the ambassador to ukraine maria yovanovitch. Right here on Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. One of seven delicious entrees like new hawaiianstyle garlic shrimp. And, get a sweet dessert. Three courses. One amazing price. So come in today. Breathe freely fast, with vicks sinex. My congestions gone. I can breathe again ahhhh i can breathe again ughh vicks sinex. Breathe on. Fidelity now has zero commissions for online u. S. Equity trades and etfs. And fidelity also offers zero account fees for brokerage accounts, plus zero minimums to open an account. 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And at that point he turned around to his aide at the time and said, fire her. That was not the only time he fired her. Because he fired her at least four on four other occasions that Rudy Giuliani went to the white house, had conversations with him and then came back and informed me, victoria and joe about what transpired. He fired her when he gave an order to mike pompeo once, which he didnt do. Secretary pompeo didnt fire her. And then rudy came back and said speak to pompeo. Rudy went to speak to pompeo. They got into it. Then they had another meeting at the white house where he told bolton to fire her. Bolton didnt want to fire her. Told her to tell pompeo to fire her. Lev parnas, this is just the second hour of Rachel Maddows interview, he of course one of the key figures in the Ukraine Pressure Campaign detailing all the people, including secretary of state pompeo who was supposed to carry out the president s order to fire the u. S. Ambassador to ukraine maria yovanovitch. The secretary of state pompeo is responding to those accusations. Joining me now is dana shell smith, a Career Service foreign officer for years. Shes served under eight secretaries of state and five president s from both parties. Welcome. Now, you can see the secretary of state responds to the president ordering repeatedly ordering the firing. One of the issues you talked about publicly is the silence of mike pompeo to come to yovanovitchs defense which has really demoralized the department. Its demoralizing and its just its complete dereliction of his duty. He has a responsibility to stand up for his people which im sure he learned at west point. This is a radio interview. Lets listen. Ive never communicated with him. We will do everything we need to do to evaluate whether there was something that took place there. I suspect that much of whats been reported will ultimately prove wrong but my only as secretary of state is to make sure that we evaluate, investigate anytime theres someone who pauses that there may have been a risk to one of our officers. Well obviously do that. He didnt say anything for three days after the first reports that are very sketchy character in connecticut, a republican candidate for congress, claimed that they had the ambassador under surveillance and had details about her laptop, her iphone, her comings and goings, there were emails and texts indicating that they were following her. Now, ukraine is investigating this. We have confirmed that an fbi agent has gone to connecticut to interview this man, robert hyde. We dont know whether he was making it up, lev parnas says that wasnt true. But in any case, there is some evidence, some indication that a u. S. Ambassador in a conflict zone, in a difficult post, was being surveilled. Being surveilled by a group of people who are already known to have wanted her out of the way. And they werent just surveilling her. The Text Exchange actually includes a menacing threat, this person in connecticut said something about for a price i can have whatever you want done to her or something to that effect. If you imagine that text coming from someone whos not in connecticut, you know, we all have our own connecticut of who a scary person might be, thats a scary thing to hear. And it would be treated very seriously if it was coming from somewhere other than a congressional candidate in connecticut. And just on the face of it, mike pompeo has not said anything publicly about the phone call. The president s phone call with zelensky which is the heart of the ukraine matter where he says shes a bad person and bad things will happen to her. He said terrible things about the sitting ambassador and mike pompeo, it took him several days until being questioned in italy to even acknowledge that he was listening into that call, that he was a party to it. Thats true. And not only has he been completely absent on the issue, but the state department under his leadership has not turned over a single responsive document to the House Foreign Affairs committee that has been investigating this. Pompeos close friend and counselor of the department has been subpoenaed and is ignoring the subpoena. Frankly anything pompeo says on the radio to me, its just its irrelevant until they start responding to the inquiry and then we can know a little bit more about what has happened and what they knew and when they knew it. What about investigating this threat to yovanovitch . They have to investigate the threat. Im delighted that the ukrainians are investigating it. But of course its a sad day for america when its a foreign country that cares more about the u. S. Ambassador than our own country. I have a huge amount of faith in Diplomatic Security not only because im married to an agent but they will not let a threat just go uninvestigated. So i am certain that someone, somewhere has or will follow up if theyre not given all of the tools, then im sure theyll follow up with the ukrainians. But it has to be investigated. Such a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you. Witness protection program, what the democrats are doing to try to get witnesses to testify at the impeachment trial. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. At leaf blowers. You should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. And you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. Make ice. Making ice. But youre not mad because you have e trade which isnt complicated. 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Quit smoking slow turkey. Talk to your doctor about chantix. Its red lobsters new threecourfor 14. 99. East choose soup or salad. One of seven delicious entrees like new hawaiianstyle garlic shrimp. And, get a sweet dessert. Three courses. One amazing price. So come in today. Senate democratic leader Chuck Schumer is demanding that four key witnesses testify at the Senate Impeachment trial, john bolton, acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Michael Duffy all with firsthand knowledge of the central charge of president ial abuse of power over ukraine. Mitch mcconnell is opposing having any witnesses, but there will be votes. Some other key republicans, lindsay graham, even though he took a different approach to the issue when he was a house impeachment manager prosecuting bill clinton. When you have a witness who was there, who was engaged in it, who was in the middle of it telling you about what they were doing and why, its a totally different case and its the difference between getting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If you want a witness and the witness was available to you and you chose not to call them, dont blame me. Joining me now rick tyler, former spokesman for senator ted cruz, and Jennifer Palmieri who worked in the Clinton White house during impeachment. So youve both been there done that. Jennifer, first to you, the democrats struggling to get witnesses. They could be outvoted on this and they could face the deletid insisting on calling hunter biden. I think that means pushing for the witnesses that you ticked off and theyre pretty senior people, its the National Security adviser, its the white house chief of staff, and even making the argument for why those two those four need to testify, schumer is pushing the case about how serious this is and i think that, you know, the republicans are going to do what the republicans are going to do. And trump, you know, he likes to make a mockery of any process and thats why he thats how he diminishishes the impact on him. Hes going to do what hes going to do. And i think the democrats have to put forward the best case they can and that includes calling those four witnesses and, you know, however the republicans react is however they react. Ted cruz, rick, as you know, you worked for him, this is what he had to say about witnesses. I think it should be at a bare minimum one for one. If the prosecution brings a witness, if they bring john bolton, then President Trump can bring a witness. He can bring in hunter biden and it should be fair and even. Rick . Should that be the standard . Well, first of all should materiality matter . Nancy pelosi set that standard when she withheld the articles of impeachment because the whole conversation was can we get a fair trial . And so she sas set the predica now. And i think its easier for the democrats to make their point of view. Back in the clinton impeachment, there was a partyline vote on witnesses, mostly, and now were going to have a partyline vote again. Most people have watched enough law and order to understand that investigators investigate. And when you investigate you interview witnesses. You also present witnesses at a trial. You got to bring documents and witnesses forward and if they dont vote on them heres the key thing, is Justice Roberts, who has spent a career bringing sort of a solemnity to the court, he wants the court to be seen as having integrity. Is he now going to preside over a mockery of a trial. If senator cruz is right, is Justice Roberts going to allow nonrelevant witnesses to turn this trial not into what a trial of what President Trump did, but into what President Biden did . Im not sure hes going to allow that. Second, if we get one for one witnesses, im not sure calling the republicans bluff on this and bring joe biden, bring hunter biden and see how they people are smart. This is about what President Trump did, not about what biden did. Its about what President Trump did. And just to give you give our viewers and you an idea of just how nasty things have gotten, how partisan things have gotten, i wanted to play something that happened yesterday with Martha Mcsally clashing with cnns manu raju. Theres no one more highly manu. And heres what happened when he tried to ask her a question. Should the senate consider new evidence youre a liberal hack. Im not talking to you. Youre not going to comment on this youre a liberal hack which was immediately put up as a campaign ad. Jennifer, whats happening to us . I covered the senate, thats not the way the senate used to be. Yeah, the fish rots from the head, right, and trump sets the standard for that kind of behavior. Its celebrated in the republican party. I saw a clip earlier that she was on the she was on fox news today being celebrated for, you know, for mocking a reporter like that. Thats the impact of having a president like trump. And just to point out, of course, she is the appointed senator from arizona and lets show you the late, great john mccain, pranking manu when he was trying to do a live shot. Thats the kind of fun and games that would happen because everybody is up there. Comedy, its nice. Ive gone one on one with manu too. Hes a tough reporter. Hes going to get the story. But, look, she has lost the argument because she doesnt have any facts to back up the president. She doesnt have the she doesnt have the have an answer to the question. So resort to namecalling. Thats shes changed a lot. Ive interviewed her in the past when she was a Fighter Pilot fighting for gender equity for women, she has a stellar military career and ive had a lot of contact with her and ive never seen her like this. This is what happens when you get into the toxic politics right now. Thank you very much. President trump suggests he doesnt know lev parnas. Well, photographic evidence suggests otherwise. Stay with us, youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Helping many people with type 2 diabetes like james lower their blood sugar. A majority of adults who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. Heres your a1c. Oh my a1c is under 7 announcer and you may lose weight. Adults who took ozempic® lost on average up to 12 pounds. I lost almost 12 pounds oh announcer ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. Theres no increased risk. Oh and i only have to take it once a week. 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Oh, oh, oh, ozempic® announcer you may pay as little as 25 per prescription. Ask your Health Care Provider today about onceweekly ozempic®. Yeah . Whos peter . Well sweetie, hes your greatgreat grandfather. Here, does he look like me . Yeah. Your familys story is waiting to be shared. At ancestry. Com its red lobsters new threecourfor 14. 99. East choose soup or salad. One of seven delicious entrees like new hawaiianstyle garlic shrimp. And, get a sweet dessert. Three courses. One amazing price. So come in today. I dont know him. I dont know parnas, other than i guess i had pictures taken which i do with thousands of people. I dont know him at all. I dont know what hes about. Dont know where he comes from. Know nothing about him. But i can tell you this he says that i dont know him. I dont believe ive ever spoken to him. He said i dont believe ive ever spoken to him. President trump yesterday repeatedly denying that he knows Rudy Giulianis associate lev parnas despite having been photographed with him many times. Some photos published in the daily mail and video of parnas and the president at maralago from 2016 tweeted out by parnass attorney. Joining me now is maya wiley and ken dilanian who covers National Security and intelligence. Maya, its so unusual to see someone who is out on bail charged with serious crimes, which Campaign Finance violations to republican superpacs, to him sitting down and being as open as he was. What about his credibility . What about his legal jeopardy for having talked to rachel and done other interviews . Very good questions. Number one, i would say, as to credibility, because hes under indictment, it is absolutely important to have corroborating evidence as many others before me have said. Its also interesting that there is corroborating evidence on some of the important points that lev parnas has made. Take, for example, his representations that trump was in the know and there is an exchange between him and Rudy Giuliani around getting a visa for a former prosecutor who is the person that joe biden helped to get removed from office because of his corruption. He was denied a visa. Theres an exchange between giuliani and parnas about getting that visa for him because he has dirt. And he giuliani himself names, i got this taken care of, i got number one, which parnas says is a reference to donald trump. And of course, giuliani himself has made public statements that the president knew what he was doing. So those are forms of independent corroborating evidence. The other has to do with another former prosecutor, liwho says h can exchange useful dirt if they help him out. So those kinds of things are corroborating. They do bolster his credibility. The other thing i would say, hes obviously not serving his legal interests, necessarily, in talking publicly as you pointed out, but particularly because prosecutors, if you want to make a deal with them, typically prosecutors dont like you talking out of school. Its interesting that Rachel Maddow on wednesday night and my ears perked up on this said that she seemed to believe that he needed to do this to protect himself but not from prosecutors. And this is a president who not only is surrounded by people who have been pled guilty to crime or been convicted of crime, but in many instances, there have been suggestions of threats and im not suggesting we can link that to the president. But it certainly is a consistent concern that weve heard from people from stormy daniels, all the way now through to lev parnas. And, ken dilanian, he has firsthand knowledge of some of it, not of the president s interactions, except in certain cases. He suggested this linkage and its very coincidental to say the least, mike pence canceling the inaugural after zelensky would not do the public announcement of an investigation into the bidens, but you cant prove hes denied it, that mike pence knew why his trip was canceled. That seems to be the case. He did come with receipts, but the receipts dont answer all of the questions and thats a big one. He has implicated everybody. Hes implicated rick perry, mike pence, the Vice President , and william barr. He was adamant about looping in barr because of course hes opposition in opposition to the Justice Department right now. And doj has denied theyve all denied it. 100 . And it would be good to ask him how he knows, what exactly did he overhear in terms of phone conversations, what conversations did he have a Rudy Giuliani about the knowledge of these other people . Because right now its not clear but what is clear is that he is completely turned and hes painting a picture. They didnt try to hide this very well, of a conspiracy to sort of use the mechanisms of government to do donald trump a political favor. Rudy giuliani, parnas and other and is we see the texts to prove it. Thank you very much. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. Do you have concerns about mild memory loss related to aging . Prevagen is the number one pharmacistrecommended memory support brand. You can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Thenot actors, people, whove got their eczema under control. With less eczema, you can show more skin. So roll up those sleeves. And help heal your skin with dupixent. Dupixent is the first treatment of its kind that continuously treats moderatetosevere eczema, or atopic dermatitis, even between flare ups. Dupixent is a biologic, and not a cream or steroid. Many people taking dupixent saw clear or almost clear skin. And, had significantly less itch. Thats a difference you can feel. 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The dispute escalated after prosecutors pressed to call more than a dozen witnesses. Efforts to find middle ground between democrats defending the president were suspended at midday as democrats formulated their own alternative, no witnesses and just three days for each side to present its case. At this point, nothing is for sure. We may vote on. That report from our friend and colleague, gwen eiffel. Joining me now, peter baker and coauthor of impeachment an history. Peter first to you, what do you see as the most important differences between the way the senators are handling it in particular . Well, one of the things thats striking, of course, about seeing ken starr reemerge assist a play as a player is reminding us how everyone has switched sides. You see a lot of the same players who were defending this president and saying this is a witchhunt. Now pursuing President Trump and the flip side is also to those who talked a lot about the rule of law, the need for accountability on a president , a check on his abuse of power today are the ones defending this president and saying hes the one who is the subject of a coup detat or some sort of a persecution witchhunt. 21 years later, we flipped sides. The merits of the allegations are different. Thats what ken starr is arguing. Hes saying that bill clinton was accused of and found culpable of an actual specific crime on the books, perjury and obstruction of justice. And that in this case theres a policy difference, not a crime, being alleged of President Trump. Thats the case hell make on the floor. Its interesting to see him come forward. Hell bring a lot of the baggage of the last impeachment to this debate and people will start making comparisons and saying if then this, then that. And import the 21year old fight into his fight today. And were not the only people who are having friday flashbacks. Monica lewinsky tweeted today, this is definitely an are you fing kidding me kind of day. We are blurring things out. I keep saying this about the times weve living through. If you wrote this in a novel, your editor would say its too improbable. If you had asked peter and me if we imagined a world in which ken star having been criticized for perhaps going beyond the bounds of what an independent counsel should do and aggressively urging house to impeach president clinton, that he would then find himself in the role of defense counsel for another impeached president , we would have thought we were all smoking something, which we werent. And this is what President Trump had to say when he was then not President Trump back in 1999 on the today show about ken star. I think ken star is a lunatic. I really think that ken star is a disaster. I hated the way the president handled it. It was a long and terrible process. I think ken star was terrible. Peter . Well, again, everybody used to be on different sides. President trump used to be a democrat before he was a republican. And then a reformed party. Everybody has kind of flip sides. Its really remarkable to have this flashback friday. Some of the same characters in different roles in effect. And youve seen it in a number of cases. Two of the managers selected this week to prosecute the case against President Trump were zolo zoloft, grenen. Lindsey graham, one of the managers 21 president clinton on the floor of the senate. Today is President Trumps most vocal defender. Senator Chuck Schumer, the democratic minority leader today defending who voted against 1 years ago. Its just a remarkable set of head spinning developments here. And with marcus, john edwards was one of the managers as well. Yeah. I want to go back to one of peters points. There is head spinning flipping and judgments everybody is making. Its really important to understand that there are significant differins here, and the biggest difference that explains some of the situational differences has to do with the fact that from the clinton impeachment, we were working from an extensive record. One ken star assembled for it. Multiple witnesses with interviews including the president himself, including the witnesses that were eventually called. People knew the facts. Here people do not know the facts. Those who insisted on witnesses then have a hard time explaining why theyre not insisting on witnesses that now. But those who argued against witnesses then are not necessarily like challenger schumer are not necessarily being completely hypocritical. I know thats a shopping concept in washington. Its a great point. Thank you. Flashback friday for sure. Justice for all . What will the Supreme Court chief Justice John Roberts play in the impeachment trial . Pete Williams Joins us from the court next. 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So come ask, shop, discover at your local xfinity store today. I believe that no one is above the law under our system, and that includes the president. I have been arguing cases against the executive branch, and frequently arguing cases for the proposition of deference in favor of the legislature. Judges are like umpires. Umpires dont make the rules. They apply them. It is a limited role. Nobody ever went to a ball game to see the umpire. John roberts comments at his confirmation hearings are echoing throughout the capital almost 15 years later as hes now the second chief justice to preside over such a trial in a century. Pete williams is at the court. He will break a tie, but he can also be overruled by a majority of senators. Im not sure he can break a tie. First, any decision he makes can be overturned by a simple vote of the senate. But on this question of breaking a tie, yes, its true, sam chase did it twice, but these were minor procedural questions and after the senate objected he stopped doing it. The rules say the senate votes. And theres no need to break a tie. A 50 50 vote means whatever the proposal was fails. Its true hes residing. The constitution gives them the authority to break ties. It doesnt give the chief justice the authority to break ties. Theres a lot of talk about whether john roberts is going to break ties, but that would require him to follow the act of a salmon chase model, not the rehnquist model. I dont expect roberts to try to break ties. I think the expectation at the senate is hes not going to and he cant. The Vice President doesnt have a role in this, so his tiebreaking role would be irrelevant to an impeachment trial. Yes. Except for the idea that the chief justice is in us tense standing in the Vice President s shoes by presiding over the senate. Thats the analogy. Pete, when the Supreme Court the chief justice appears, so he is basically not even a referee. Hes basically just yeah. Referee i think i think thats the right way to put it. Referee moderator of ceremonies, traffic cop. He said umpires call the balls and strikes. This is like an umpire whose vote can be overridden by the team. Leave it there. Pete, thank you so much. Here is ali velshi for velshi and ruhle. Its friday, january 17th th, 2020. Coming up this hour, we now know who will defend the president in his impeachment trial. The attorneys come with a lot of baggage, but theyre some of the best trump defenders out there. Why ken star, alan dershowitz, pam blonondy and robert wray co be the Perfect People for the job. Why the story of the buddy of Rudy Giuliani is no important. How will it effect the reelection bid in