Transcripts For MSNBCW Andrea Mitchell Reports 20180924

And rosenstein would remain in office for now, but if rosenstein is out, who would then take on rosensteins current job of supervising the Mueller Probe . We have nbcs Pete Williams, our justice correspondent, nbc News White House correspondent Kristen Welker, Washington Post White House Bureau chief, phil rucker. And adam schiff on the house intelligence committee. Thanks to all of you. First of all, Pete Williams, if you can pick it up where i have left off of all of your great reporting today. We know there are different signals coming on what is going to happen to Rod Rosenstein. Exactly, andreandrea, two contradictory stories about whats happening here. There was one and possibly two meetings in may of last year, Rod Rosenstein suggested that people wear a wire when pemeeti with the president to talk about who the new fbi director should be, and perhaps invoking the 25th amendment to declare the president unfit for office. After that story came out, the Justice Department pushed back against it. Rosenstein issued a statement that had conversations with the white house friday night. They said youve got to get a more definitive statement out which he did, he completely denied that he ever suggested any of these two things. We just learned that over the last half hour, that over the weekend, rosenstein had more conversations with officials at the white house, including the possibility that perhaps it was time for him to go. Now we dont know who made that suggestion on the phone, and then today, this morning, rosenstein summoned to the white house, were told by people at the Justice Department, a very few of whom new aboknew about t meeting, that he had gotten into the car saying if they want me out, theyre going to have to fire me, im not going to resign. And white house officials saying that he was coming to the white house to resign. So neither of these two beneath neither of those statements is one or the other is right, they cant both be true. And they could reach some sort of compromise in which rosenstein agrees to stay on for some period of time. This is not merely the fact that this is the number two official at the Justice Department, that this is the official since the beginning that brought in Robert Mueller to be the special counsel and that he supervisors the special counsels investigation. If rosenstein does end up leaving, were told that the day to day supervision of the Mueller Investigation will fall to the tony general, whos not acting in and now we have noel francisco, who is now the u. S. Solicitor general, whos basically the top courtroom advocate and the Deputy Attorney generals other work would wibe taken over by a man named Ed Ocallaghan, who is the socalled hes a long time federal bruprosecutor in new yo and also here in the main justice and National Security division. So you have a split in the job that rosenstein is doing right now. But its a pivotal moment, andrea, in the history of the russia investigation, and the Justice Department overall. And if he resigns or if he is to go will be fired, and who could take over some or all of his jobs. I want to bring in adam schiff who has faced a lot of conflict with republicans on the house side on how the Mueller Probe is going to be independent or not be independent. What are the risks do you see for the Mueller Probe if rosenstein leaves . Well, first of all, Rod Rosenstein should under no circumstances resign. If the president tends to obstruct justice, rosenstein should require him to be fired. He shouldnt take a step affirmatively and essentially let the president off the hook. This looks to me like a slow moving saturday night massacre. It seems like the only question is whether these steps take place now or they take place after the midterms when the president believes he will pay less of a political price for it. But the fact that these steps, the firing of comey, pushing out Rod Rosenstein, whether its done now or later, the firing of the attorney general apparently seems contemplated after the election. Those are in their cumulative form the same as the saturday night massacre and they all have the same end which is to give the president total control over the investigation in which he might be implicated. So i dont think theres any circumstances in which rosenstein should tender his resignation, and i dont think that in the event that the president fires him, its another piece of substantial evidence, it is the second piece after the firing of comey in a potential obstruction case that bob mueller may where putting together. I want to bring in also Jill Winebanks who was of course a witness to the saturday night massacre. Pete says he sees this as a slow moving saturday night massacre, because if rosenstein is pushed out now or after the elections, and if sessions is fired after the elections, which is expected, there are going to be vacancies to be filled and whos going to take over the Mueller Probe is very much in play. It is a slow moving saturday night massacre, but theres another jill, i think we have a bad microphone, im going to fix your microphone, someone there will at your location and bring in Kristen Welker who are hearing from the white house sources who are all indicating that this showdown was perhaps precipitated from Rod Rosenstein that he wanted to offer his resignati resignation. Reporter that is what people close to the president are saying and that he was poised to do that over the weekend and that was their likely expectation for this meeting, although we have to stress what pete has been reporting all day is that we dont know what the ultimate outcome of this meeting is going to be with chief of staff john kelly. What we do know is that the pressure has been mounting in the wake of that bombshell report by the New York Times, President Trump for example out on the campaign trail on friday, essentially saying look at what is now being expose in our Justice Department, look whats going on, effectively, reiterating this line from him that we have heard which is that there is bias from the Justice Department and of course senator Lindsay Graham talking about what he talked about a bure bureaucrat tiic coup over the weekend, so this has been fueled by the republicans who has said theres some type of alleged bias within the Justice Department and that will turn on the heat under the attorney general. What will the outcome of todays meeting be . This is very much unfolding right now and white house officials have been meeting and of course a lot of them are in new york. So this is an administration that right now is divided, the president is in new york, with the chief of staff here, deciding what is going to happen next, a lot of them right now behind closed doors while the unfoilu unfolds. And phil rucker, what are your sources telling you about what the future of Rod Rosenstein is or is not . Andrea, its a big question mark as kristen was just underscoring. Were hearing conflicting information, the white house has not put out an official line as to what is going on right now with Rod Rosenstein, whether hes resigning, whether hes going to be fired, whether hes going to stay in his job and patch things up with kelly, which is a possibility as pete was saying, but right now its chaos within the administration as they try to get their story straight and my colleagues and i are hearing different accounts from the Justice Department, from sources close to Rod Rosenstein than the accounts that were hearing from the white house, which is that he had offered over the weekend, verbally in a conversation with chief of staff john kelly had offered to resign. That is the account from people at the white house and close to the president. And phil, theres also a disconnect on the original story, the New York Times story, i believe a story that the Washington Post also then followed up with as to the circumstances of whether he was joking, whether he was saying to andy mccabe and others at a crisis point in the Justice Department, what do you want me to do wear a wire . Or maybe he was saying maybe we should wear a wire and secretly record the president. Also it would be really, really difficult to think of someone like Rod Rosenstein, a bureaucratic survivor all these years, a very good law officer, understands the difficulties of the 25th amendment, the 25th amendment is almost impossible to temporarily remove the president , certainly without the support of the Vice President , you would have to get the cabinet behind you, then you would have to get 2 3 of the congress, Republican Controlled Congress loyal to the president so far. Very unlikely to happen. And i think even beginning that sort of effort in a real way in this administration could spell trouble. You know, you have to get a majority of the cabinet members of the Department Heads and you need the approval of the Vice President to then take it to the congress and as we know from watching Vice President pence hes nothing but loyal to President Trump and i think that sort of effort would immediately result in someone being fired by the president. And pete, i think youve got an update . I just want to expand on something that phil said about all the different versions were hearing about this. Were hearing that hes going there, the white house says to resign. Were hearing that no, no, hes not going to resign, if they want him out, hes going to be fired. Were hearing that no, in fact, this is a regularly scheduled meeting, this is a principals meeting of officials that would normally happen at the white house, and thats why hes there, so were hearing all over the map about what is going on here. And the question i would have with you and with phil, andrea, this does put the president in a bit of a box. It would appear from what we have been told that this meeting today, or this sort of focus point, is not of the president s going, at least, we have not heard that, that this started with discussions between Rod Rosenstein and senior officials at the white house, presumably the white house counsel, the white house chief of staff, that they talked ore t ed over the w that perhaps its time for rosenstein to go. And were hearing in the white house that the president was not the one pushing for this. And now they have got the president in this box to decide what to do about this. Its all very odd. The fact is we dont know for sure whats going on here because were being told so many contradictory things by people who ordinarily would know. And youre hearing from some people who have a vested interest in this, so its really hard to know what these sources are trying to do. Are they trying to get the president a liability, we believe hes in trump tower we believe and has some time on his hands. And in fact he is in important meetings, hes meeting with the president of south korea this afternoon, to get messages from kim jongun from north korea, after the meetings they just had. He said he thinks today there will be a second summit with kim coming up very shortly. That was news. Adam schiff, in the midst of all of this, we have the kavanagh hearings now scheduled for thursday, refusal for them to in fact have any witnesses, the one witness who was in the room that is alleged by christine ford, dr. Ford is apparently not going to be called and it is a semi legalistic hearing without the privileges that most witnesses would have. Well, thats right and you know, for some of the members of that committee to suggest this is the only way it can be done. Senator Lindsay Graham said this is how you would do it, you would just hear from these two witnesses. Thats not always the case, certainly not if you want to get to the truth. We have a second witness, one that wants to go before the economy, the third person that was in the room at the first incident or the first allegation of attempted rape. And they should be forced to make their statements under oath. No in the distance of merely submitting something publicly, but they should be tested under oath. This is what the senate would do, this is what any tribunal would do, if it was interested in getting to the truth. But the interest here on the gop side is just cnot to get the tr but to get confirmation at any cost. Were all pressed to get the answers here. Im not impressed by the idea of somebody who may have committed attempted rape sitting on the Supreme Court of the United States. If you could weigh in on the succession here, if rosenstein were to leave and the solicitor general presumably could take over the Mueller Probe, except that he might have a conflict of interest because within the last two years, he came from jones day, which is the law firm that represents the Trump Administration or the trump campaign, i should say. And i apologize again to jill, as we figure out whats going on with your audio. Whos going to take over the Mueller Probe, whether Rod Rosenstein gets fired or resigns . It may depend on whether he is fired or voluntarily resigns, as far as who would supervise this investigation, under no circumstances should rosenstein resign. I would say this also, Rod Rosenstein took an oath to the United States not to President Trump. And this investigation needs to run through, and if allowed to under no circumstances should he allow through the vacancies act the resignation, the president to put some chronny chron chron crony of his, to essentially knee cab the investigation. I think the path for Rod Rosenstein is pretty clear, i think theres a reason youre hearing a different statement from the white house than you are from the Justice Department. I think its just since hes out of town that hes not the moving party here, it could be that he stewed about these reports in the New York Times over the weekend and he called for rosensteins head and thats the reason this meeting is coming about. But the country is calling on rodinvestigation. That has to be the top priority. I was not suggesting that, i was trying to suggest that that would be the appearance that they would try to separate himself from it. Thats exactly right. I wanted to play just a bit of Jeff Sessions earlier today in alabama. A little bit joking but a little bit sardonically referring to his own tenure and his own situation and then ask pete about it on the other side. Heres Jeff Sessions in his home state of alabama. Thank you so much, that is a warm welcome and i appreciate it. It will make my day and who knows, i may need this today. Going back to washington, you never know. Whats going to happen next in the capital city, thats for sure. Pete, youve been covering Jeff Sessions since the administration began, any interpretation of that . Yeah, hes actually said Something Like this in similar appearances in the last month or so about how good it is to be outside of washington and how reluctant he is to go back for fear of what may happen. I think his situation is that he knows, i suspect he knows his days are numbered and my guess would be that after the midterms, my guess would be that hell step down as attorney general and he knows thats what hes going to do and everybody else does too, and i think thats the situation there. But that comment andrea is not an unfamiliar one from him in his speeches where hes saying its great to be out of washington. One other thing, andrea, i think we have to go back here because its becoming more and more clear that the sequence of events that led up to today, after the times story, that over the weekend, and probably saturday, Rod Rosenstein had some conversations with white house officials, likely the white house counsel, because thats the normal way that the Justice Department deals with the white house, those are the rules. So my guess is that thats the conversations and were told now by several officials that the question of whether Rod Rosenstein should go came up in those discussions. Now what we dont know is, who raised it . Whether rosenstein said, maybe we ought to talk about my leaving or my leaving eventually or how this is going to shake out or whether the white house suggested maybe its time for you to go, question juwe just d that, but its certainly clear from a number of people we have talked to now, that there was this conversation over the weekend and that this white house meeting is now the follow on to that. But the most important factor were told is that we have these conflicting signals that the white house said hes on his way over here to resign and the Justice Department said oh, no, if they want him out, theyre going to have to fire him. The fact that there were discussions about his future over the weekend now seems clear. Our thanks to adam schiff, Kristen Welker and Jill Winebanks, well try to get to that later on in the program. And another accuser against Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanagh. The new yorker broke that story. Ron ron ronan farrow joins me next. We distribute environmentallyfriendly packaging for restaurants. And weve grown substantially. So i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. I earn unlimited 2 cash back on everything i buy. And last year, i earned 36,000 in cash back. Thats right, 36,000. Which i used to offer Health Insurance to my employees. My unlimited 2 cash back is more than just a perk, its our healthcare. Can i say it . Whats in your wallet . So lets promote our falle a homecomingtravel dealame, on choicehotels. Com like this. Touchdown. Earn a free night when you stay just twice this fall. Or, badda book. Badda boom. Book now at choicehotels. Com your hair is so soft did you use head and shoulders two in one . I did mom. Wanna try it . Yes. 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Well get right back to that in a moment, but first, Brett Kavanagh, President Trump now standing by his man, defending Supreme Court nominee kavanagh as the firestorm surrounding him now reaches a new level. A new accusation by Deborah Ramirez, a classmate of kavanagh when they were undergraduates in the 1980s. She spoke to the new yorker after being contacted by reporters, she tells them kavanagh expose himself to her after a College Drinking party, she had been drinking to the point of being foggy and slurring her words. But she tells the new yorker, i remember a penis being in front of my face, she said, i knew thats not what i wanted, even in that state of mind. I remember kavanagh pulling up his pants beside me. Kavanagh said this alleged event from 35 years ago did not happen. The people that knew me then know this did not happen, this was a Smear Campaign plain and simple. And this prompted democratic rank i Ranking Member saying that today there are new other possible accusers coming forward from kavanaghs youth, with one of them represented by Michael Avenatt avenatti. Jane, thank you very much, thanks for being with us. I know that your colleague ronan farrow had talked it over with romero had talked it over, you pointed out all these disclaimers in your story, what do you believe to be the truth and do you think this should become part of the confirmation process . I think, ronan is one of the two of us who has spoken to us directly, but everybody i have interviewed about her, including people who the kavanagh team said to me to talk to, to try to knock her down. All of them have said Deborah Ramirez is a very truthful person. There are people who knew her way back at yale who are now on the kavanagh side of the confirmation battle and they have to admit, they say shes a very truthful person. And one offense of those people who has been calling for the fbi to come in and take sworn statements under threat of perjury from all of the witnesses including herself and it is the other side that is resisting have been the fbi come in, so i think that to me is somewhat important in evaluating this. And its the same situation as the parallel annalogous to what blasey ford is saying, they want togo forward with the limited hearing, just hearing from kavanagh and blasey ford and no other witnesses, and not even mark judge, that really is perplexing, why they would not subpoena mark judge. Oh, well, the theres been a lot written about mark judge and hes reason a l ees writtes own life, hes written a book called wasted about himself being a teenaged alcoholic and what a debotched life hes had. And in our piece in the new yorker, i interviewed a woman named elizabeth razor who came in regard to me because she had gone out with mark judge for about three years at catholic university. And she said i cant stand by and watch him lie after he had said that the boys at Georgetown Prep never could have possibly gotten into what was called rough housing in a piece with girls. Because they didnt know girls, he had said, because they were in an all boys school, and the girlfriend came forward, elizabeth razor and she said, that was a lie, and that mark judge had told her personally that he had had sex with a woman when he was a teenager along with a bunch of other boys, they all had sex with the same drunk woman at the same time. And she was very disturbed by it and she thought people needed to know this, that this was not an innocent place, or not the picture that was painted by mark judge. And we should point out, mark judge of course was the third person in the room as dr. Blasey nord describes it, he was with a friend and was with kavanagh as she alleges it was jumped on by two of them and who was witness to all of this unfolding although she was very, very inebriated. And his attorney categorically denied what elizabeth razor said, just to give him his two cents. Have you spoke on the other yale alumni . I think ronan went to yale law school. I went to yale as an undergraduate. I thought you had. So you are familiar with the culture. I frankly am not familiar with the fraternity culture, these drinking games in the 88 al 0s whenever this took place, so maybe you can tell me how common this is, in the college itself. Im dating myself, but Brett Kavanagh and his classmates came after my time there. There was not we had keg parties in the dining halls that were kind of run by the school, but there was nothing like the amount of drinking it sounds like that my reporting has been describing in Brett Kavanaghs crew who was at yale in the class of 1987. We have someone on the record who remembers him who describes him as often incoherently intoxicated. It, you know, its a its not a very pretty picture, especially when youre thinking about someone who might have a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court and whos packaged himself basically as someone whos relationships with women is one of his great calling k i cards. From the minute his name was nominated, he stood up and talked about the women clerks he had, and the great relationships he had with them and his lovely daughters and they do look lovely and how he coached their Girls Basketball team, and he brought all the girls from the Basketball Team into the Senate Hearing room, his relationship from women is an issue he teed up right from the beginning and its not surprising that some women who remember otherwise then a perfect picture have felt they better come and speak up about it. And one other point which gets too what may be senator hirono, and she asks this of all nominees for judicial vacancies, so this is not unique to him. She asked whether he had any time in his adult life had been accused or been found to have engaged in sexual misconduct. Now he said no. And his adult life would include behavior at yale, which was alleged by dr. Blasey ford was in prep school and when he was 17, she was 15, so that would not have been a misstatement or a lie to the committee. But if this did in fact happen, it while he was in college, it would be a different matter. Thats right. And that is one of those things that the Senate Democrats have been looking at. Because it may become a matter of sworn testimony, given to them that if turns out that Debby Ramirez is right, it could be a very big political and legal problem for him. And i should also point out that you of course are one of the coauthors with joe abramson of the book on anita hill and clarence thunderstoromas and th hearings. And back to the other major story of the day, the Justice Department right dead center on both of these issues, the mounting speculation over Rod Rosensteins foot nuture now swg around capitol hill, and considering Brett Kavanaghs confirmation would need to name a replacement for rosenstein. Julia, first to you, because there is a scenario under which a vacancy could be filled from another confirmed official under the vacancy act for a certain period of time without a Senate Hearing on a deputy a. G. , but not necessarily, in fact not at all on the Mueller Probe supervi supervise supervision or on another track. Thats why it matters whether hes fired or if rehe resigns. And we have been having conversations about who would take this job for so long because this is not the girs time rgirs first time hes been under fire on capitol hill. But as we understand it now, there would be a separate person who would take over the russia investigation versus the d. A. G. Responsibilities. To Dan Ocallaghan would take over the duties at the department of justice. This is so much bigger than just the Mueller Probe, this is who everybody at the Justice Department reports to, the da, the deputy u. S. Attorney, all of those people report to this person. Theyre like the chief operating officer of the Justice Department. So that would go to Ed Ocallaghan whos the current u. S. Solace ter general. He hasnt had a lot of experience overseeing something or really being in the public spotlight like he would be if he stepped into that role. So succession is already being talked about. And it is clear that at least under the vai ccancies act, the president could put somebody in the position to fill the role of Deputy Attorney general, as long as they have been president ially appointed and senate confirmed. That leaves the door wide open. It could be someone without even that much legal experience, although you would hope that he would have the political advice to put someone in who could at least know what theyre doing on the day to day handling of this massive organization. And the Mueller Probe is the biggest criminal investigation in recent american history. Casey hunt on the hill, theres supposed to be a womens walkout around washington. Protests on the hill at various offices, Susan Collins under a lot of stress. You have been right in the middle of all of this with your extraordinary angering last night on kasie d. C. Last night. Reporter i apologize, its difficult for me to hear you, because we have these protesters who are champnting her, so all e reporters got kicked out of that area, as the Police Escort those protesters out. And this is part of sustained campaign against breatt kavanag and it started with dr. Fords allegation and now this new allegation from Debby Ramirez, theres also a group of students here from yale university, i heard u. N. Jay yale talking about yale. There had been a report that one of their professors was said to have advised Brett Kavanaghs potential clerks to dress a concern way. So clearly, also the focus up here shifting to Rod Rosenstein, but the challenge is no one knows anything yet. Kasie, while you are surrounded by the protesters there, pete has an update for us. From all we know, Rod Rosenstein is still the deadly weap weapon Deputy Attorney general. He went there this morning, talked to the white house chief of staff, we dont know what was said in that meeting, but then he went to a regularly scheduled meeting of senior Government Officials and attended it as the Deputy Attorney general. And presumably, when that meeting is over, he will leave the white house as Deputy Attorney general and go back to the Justice Department and keep on being Deputy Attorney general, unless theres been some agreement made at that meeting that at some future point he would step down. But as far as we know, hes still the deputy tone general. Now it appears that the people we talked to, you know, he expected, it appears, based on the folks we talked to at the Justice Department, that he was being summoned to the white house, and that his future would be determined today, that he would be out and that his feeling was, well, im not quitting, youre going to have to fire me. And that the white house was saying, hes coming here to resign. So i think it would appear from everything we know that were past that point now, hes still the Deputy Attorney general, these, what, 2 1 2 hours after hes headed to the white house. Principals meetings dont last forever and at some point hell get into one of those black suvs and head back to the Justice Department. Pete, you were the first person who pointed out the caution that this could be a clearing of the air between the the third alternative, we dont know. But the fact is that Rod Rosenstein is still acting, as you point out in his official capacity at the socalled principals meeting which is the high level meeting where they discuss usually issues of National Security. The one thing that has to be said here, when i worked in government, ive been through situations where a senior Government Official fired someone for going something that the senior official thought was wrong. Here rosenstein has totally denied doing earning that was in the New York Times story, that he suggested that somebody wear a wire meeting with the president and invoking the 25th amendment. So you could imagine this meeting with the white house chief of staff and the chief of staff says did you do this stuff and rosenstein said absolutely not. So its pretty hard on that basis to decide to fire them unless the white house had independent reasons to think that it was true, plus you have all these counter veiling factor of people that whisper in the president s ear saying dont do this now, it looks bad. It would be another burden on the kavanagh nomination, we have got the midterms coming up, the timing isnt right. So from all indications, this is a little hurricane that died out pretty fast, but well know more here shortly. And you pointed out the kitchen cabinet, if you will, the advisors, the fox commentators, who are more than whispering in his ear on camera, do not do this mr. President , out of concern perhaps as adam schiff was already saying, that this would be another issue for obstruction of justice. Presumably, as well, thats right. Pete williams, on top of it all, joining me now, senior had to president obama, chief counsel for the Senate Judiciary committee and cnbc contributor sarah feigen, a white house political director for george w. Bush. Ron, you have gone through how many Supreme Court processes as a top aide on the hill and in the white house . Eight. So youve seen it all, done it all, have you seen anything like this . No nothing like this, the lateness of these charges, the number of charges the tro controversies about them. And the white house did itself no favors and did judge kavanagh no favorites by not putting the fbi to work on these charges when they first came out, for having a review outside of the lights. As a result of that we have a feeling by the democrats that this is being rushed, by the republicans that kavanagh is being sandbagged here and theres no orderly process to resolve all of this. And i want to ask you to respond to the Rod Rosenstein news, and we dont know what it is, whether hes fired, resigned or stays on for a while. What would be the impact if he is ousted. First of all the question is how would he be ousted . Theres certain questions about the president s power to sloth swu slot someone in his place. To have the p. D. A. G. Relieve him if hes fired. But there will be an explosion on capitol hill and i think throughout the country if trump tries to ourselves the person overseeing the russia investigation before the mid temples take pla terms take place. And getting sarahs view on all of these problems, you as a white house political director know very well what the stakes are here, lets talk first about judge kavanagh. Well, stakes are pretty high and i think thats reflected in the late nature of these allegations. To the conversation around the fbi, the fbis done an investigation. In fact they have done six investigations on Brett Kavanagh, they have talked to his College Friends at multiple times in the past and nothing has come forward. So now there are two charges, neither of them have anyone, not one person who can corroborate the story. And yet now democrats want to delay the process and open it back up. And now the senate is going through a process, in the case of dr. Ford, the individuals that she identified, all of whom say either they werent there, it didnt happen or they dont recall it, have given sworn testimony under penalty of lying to a Senate Investigator saying they dont know anything about this. Well, but the difference is that mark judge has not been questioned by an fbi investigator and the fbi background check clearly did not pick up any of the allegations about excessive drinking, about any of these issues, so if something comes in subsequent to them closing the background check, theres plenty of precedent, George Herbert walker bush reopened the investigation. Jordan gray was the white house counsel. They reopened the investigation into Clarence Thomas and it took perhaps ten days and it was done. But theres an important distinction here, which is that they opened the fbi investigation before this was made public. And were now in a situation where theres no possible way to have a fair process here for judge kavanagh. The democrats have charged him as guilty before they have any evidence. And meanwhile, with respect to the piece in the new yorker today, that was completely irresponsible journalism. The New York Times, to their credit, could not find one person to corroborate that story. Not one. And the people that they called who the accuser suggested then told the New York Times in some cases that she herself, ms. Ramirez wasnt entirely sure that it was judge kavanagh who expose himself or didnt know facts around the party. So it looks to me like inkr increasingi increasingly like the quote, unquote crime here is judge kavanagh is a conservative about to go on the Supreme Court. The New York Times did not speak to Deborah Ramirez, she only spoke to the new yorker. So we have to weigh those two issues. Ron klain, what about reopening an fbi investigation and calling mark judge . I think both of those things should happen. And again, it does no favors to judge kavanagh, who if hes confirmed will serve for the next 30 years to not have this thoroughly run aground before the vote. I spent three years as chief of the judiciary committee, when jordan gray and bush was my counterpart, he had no objection to that, both at the Clarence Thomas investigation and this was at the fbi before it became public. Dianne feinstein sent it over there and the fbi was told not the act on it. Theres a linger questioning as to why the fbi hasnt beenplore other issues that are out there, it hangs over finding the truth and it hangs over judge kavanagh. I want you to quickly if you can comment on Rod Rosenstein, we dont know whats happening yet do you think if he is ousted this could become a political firestorm . It will become a firestorm for sure, one of the things about the Politics Around the russia investigation its surprising how much of a washingtonnew york story and how little comes out when youre back in other states as it relates to the politics. But having said all that, it would be imprudent to get rid of the attorney general, the acting attorney general in the case of the russia investigation, just for no other reason than it would create an additional cloud of suspicion around, unfortunately for the president what appears to be a cloud of suspicion around these investigations and how they have been handled. So adding fuel to that fire, doesnt make a lot of sense to me, particularly at a time like this. And let me just share with you a statement that just came from sarah staanders as this continues, the Rod Rosenstein story is not over. She says at the request of attorney general Rod Rosenstein he and President Trump had an extended conversation to discuss the recent news stories. Because the president is at the United Nations General Assembly and has a full schedule with leaders from around the world, they will have a full schedule on thursday. Jill, i hope you can hear me and you can hear me. I can hear you, can you hear me . Loud and clear. If you want to weigh in, obviously rosensteins job still on the line, he has talked to the president. Its not clear whats goinggoin thursday. Im hoping that he does not resign. Im hoping he doesnt get fired. I think that indivisible and move on are prepared to take to the streets if either of those things happens and it would be justified. It also reminds me this question of whether hes resigning or whether hes going to be fired, is the same question we had on the saturday night massacre, is whether richardson had resigned or whether he was fired and the same question for the Deputy Attorney general who refused to carry out the order to fire cox and it also affected our office as to whether he had been fired and if we hadnt been, whether we should resign in protest. So these are all questions that keep occurring and making this look a lot more like watergate and the saturday night massacre. Zplp and we should point out that thursday is the day that the president and Rod Rosenstein is going to talk and so is the hearing is scheduled to take place. It looks like a pretty tumultuous day in washington. Yes, it may be. It looks like he may be trying to divert attention from the kavanagh hearings. Although it may be just a question of his return to d. C. And matter if he does get pushed out, would it matter who takes over the Mueller Probe as far as what the reaction would be from critics of the president . I think it would be hard to find someone that critics will find not threatening to the investigation. But it does make a difference if theres someone who takes over whos currently representing or did represent at the law firm the president s campaign in the Mueller Investigation. Thats a clear conflict and should not be permitted and would be one person who we should not see taking over the investigation. And it should also not be someone that doesnt have qualified to lead an investigation of this sort. And that would be a mistake. So i think it does matter if we get someone trustworthy and someone who has experience that would be able to take over. Thank you so much, jill. Thank you for your persistence and patience with us today. Thank you. Also thanks to ron and sarah. My two colleagues in washington. Joining me now is jeff merkley, senator merkley. Thank you for being here. Youre welcome. Youre representing here the congress at the United Nations as part of the routine and wanted to read to you while youve within busy focusing on foreign policy, sarah san s issued a statement saying that the request of attorney general Rod Rosenstein he and President Trump had an extended conversation to discuss the recent news stories. Goes on to say because the president is at the u. N. General assembly and has a full schedule theyll meet on the thursday when the president returns to washington, d. C. Now it doesnt say when the conversation was. Could have well been today or over the weekend but what is your reaction to the cloud over Rod Rosenstein and an experienced prosecutor whos the sur vising authority over the Mueller Probe . Theres a cloud over the investigation and certainly the immediate battle question is Rod Rosensteins role and whether hell resign, be fired, will be replaced, so on and so forth and recognize theres discussion of Jeff Sessions stepping down two months from now possibly after the election which then would affect the question of his recusal and whether someone takes over and this all of this amounts to a dramatic turn of events in terms of whether congress will get the information from mueller. Mueller cannot report independently back to congress. It has to go through his supervisor in the department of justice and who is that person overseeing him . This could deeply compromise Congress Getting the details of his investigation. Lets just play the domino theory here. If Jeff Sessions resigns rather than being fired because the job is very much on the line after the midterm elections, if he resigns and whoever replaces him under the vacancy act i believe would only have to be a confirmed senior official, president ial appointee. Could be another cabinet secretary. Could bit a deputy secretary from another agency . And that person would not be recused. So it would no longer be up to the deputy ag or Rod Rosenstein or his replacement to super vise the Mueller Probe. Do i have that right . Well, i think thats correct although i wouldnt call myself an expert in the vacancies act. Thats my understanding and would be in an acting role as i understand it and then, of course, the question would be whether the president would nominate someone but meanwhile the person in the acting role would be very, very central to this whole question. This just goes to the fact that right now there is the possibility that the Mueller Investigations report will never make it to congress. And this starts to look like a massive obstruction of justice. Now, its very clear that Robert Mueller has been parcelling out key aspects of the investigation into the Southern District of new york, to virginia. At this stage, we dont know what could happen to those pieces of the investigation. No. Thats right. Theres different avenues at work here. It is an incredibly complicated and tangled web. But the role of the Justice Department should be to pursue full transparency, full justice, not to essentially create obstacles for the information that and the investigation turns up to be delivered to the places it needs to be delivered including to congress. Now, Rod Rosenstein by the way has just left the white house so as we understand it from our correspondent Pete Williams he was in a meeting with john kelly earlier this morning. And they obviously were discussing conversations that took place on saturday between Rod Rosenstein and the white house over the controversies over the New York Times story from last friday. And his denial of that and then he talked to the president. We have pictures now of him leaving apparently john kelly shook his hand as he was leaving Principles Committee meeting and also hes now getting into the car and is leaving the white house. At this stage, we dont know, of course, whats going to happen on thursday. While all of this is happening, the president is here in new york and youre here because of the u. N. Meetings. And you must have a big stake in these meetings because the refugee cap which is proposed and which in fact the u. N. Ambassador made clear over the weekend she was not part of that conversation, it sounds as though the state department caved in at the last minute. The secretary of defense was against that. That would be the lowest level of refugees since this program started in 1980. And theres a lot of controversy here. Controversy with our european allies, controversy with our allies in the middle east. King abdullah of jordan met with the president last night. Not happy that the u. S. Is no longer opening the doors. Well, the u. S. Leadership is disappearing in multiple areas and one is human rights. Our own abuse of children on the border and second of all we have the rohingya ethnic cleansing in myanmar and the president has never said one public word about that and the state department never released a report on the topic. We look at Nuclear Proliferation and see the United States undermining the plan of action regarding iran and making very little progress in korea. We see on climate withdrawal of paris and with United Nations that we have reduced the funding for peacekeeping, reduced the overall funding, withdrawal from the human rights commission. Palestinian aid. Palestinian aid. We are at a moment where so many pieces of the puzzle where u. S. Leadership is central has ended. Well, thank you very much for being here. Well be right back. Lester holt interviewed the president of iran. Stay with us. Ignition sequence starts. 10. 9. Guidance is internal. 6. 5. 4. 3. 2. 1. Minutes can mean the difference between life and death. Proposition 11 saves lives by ensuring medical care is not delayed in an emergency. Proposition 11 establishes into law the longstanding industry practice of paying emts and paramedics to remain oncall during breaks and requires they receive fema level training in active shooters and natural disasters. Vote yes on 11 to ensure 911 Emergency Care is there when you or your love one need it. And thank you so much for being with us. That does it for this edition of Andrea Mitchell reports. A busy day. Follow the show online and lester holt will have a big interview with Hassan Rowhani tonight. Do you remember a day when an interview with the president of iran would be the only thing we were talking about for hours and possibly days . Oh yeah. Why i am here, iran, north korea, the president meeting with president moon this afternoon. A message from kim jongun. And the president said today there would be another summit sometime soon. A dizzying hour. We might want to stick around for that one. Chaos. Great to see you in person. A diz ziizying two hours. On this monday, september 24th, lets get smarter. Breaking news. Is Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein about to be fired . Reports are swirling right now. The white house is saying that he is coming the white house to resign. What were hearing, in fact, from the Justice Department is that he has been summoned to the white house and that if hes asked to resign he will refuse to do so. As you spent the morning with the president , do you have any idea whats currently going on with the deputy attorne