One official told me they are pretty upset feeling theyre being smeared and being described as torturers, including people who werent working there. This was not quickly done. This was a report that took 5 1 2 years of work. I believe it will stand the test of time and, of course, the message that we want to get out is never let this happen again. Moments ago on capitol hill, mark udall who was a big driver behind the report. Torture detainees to confirm they didnt have intelligence. Not because they thought they did. Director brennan and the cia today are continuing to willfully provide Accurate Information and misrepresent the efficacy of torture. In other words, the cia is lying. This is not a problem of the past, but a problem to be dealt with today. She was the first to reveal those secret cia black site prisons and the mistreatment of prisoners for the Washington Post back in 2005. Well, you started this whole thing. Well it does go back to that report because until then, none of us knew what was going on. None of us knew about the black site prisons. Did you learn more from reading this document and the many footnotes in the document . I absolutely learned so much. And i was surprised at how many details are in there and also how many great footnotes, you know, were diggers and we like the details at the bottom. Theyre not just saying things with no backup. They really have a lot of memos. I think the most significant. I think we will be able to now pin down the most basic questions. You have documentation. If the Agency Thinks that is incorrect, they can provide their counter. And you can put those two things together and actually get an answer to the questions that still seem to be up in the air. So its very detailed. One of the things revealed is the conditions in cobalt. That was what you first revealed. Were you as i was horrified at reading about the conditions . I guess you knew a whole lot more about it. I really didnt know the extent, to the extent its revealed in this report. I heard and read about a detainee who had been dragged out and died of of hypothermia. Theres more abuse that seems more sadistic than it does any kind of technique to extract information. The Sexual Practices the, you know, the nonmedically required enemas and all of that. The humiliations. And it was reported. What about the fact you had these two psychologists who made more than 80 million who had no background in al qaeda in counterterrorism in the cultural aspects. They werent professional interrogators. They didnt have language skills. And how are they expected to know when hes lying or telling the truth . Well, in fact, they say that a lot of information and from some of the key detainees including the one that helped to lead to the Osama Bin Laden raid gave up information before, before they tortured him. So you have to say, you know, what are they whats their judgment . And how, as you say, these people were untrained. You know, the whole government wasnt didnt have this kind of practice before any time recently. And they were flying behind in a way. And thats in part why these things got out of control. And also, they were relying on junior people. They didnt want to go there and do this. You had junior people with less experience. The fact that the suspect for the uss coal bombing, a top al qaeda operative, he was blindfolded, hung from his arms and threatened with a gun to his head, a power drill around his body. Right. And there were people put in isolation. The thing you talk about is the most like graphic and violent looking to us. But isolation is one of the m t most, and sleep deprivation and combination are psychologically the most devastating things they can go through. And that, those sorts of things were routinely used in a manner that was not described to other people who were monitoring this system. Four have been confirmed by nbc news. Were talking about stockholm, amsterdam, cairo, islamabad, cairo has been on alert, on guard because of all of the tension there and the problems that we had just before the benghazi attacks. Thailand, of course, is one of the countries now we know that did have one of these prisons. Why should we not be surprised that people in those countries are angry, their government agreed to things that are illegal in their own countries. The alternative is you suppress this information. Thats not the kind of country we are. And in a large way, this report, i think, you know, will tell people that, okay, there were mistakes made but were a country that believes in open government and this is what were willing to say now. I want to know whether the governments going to go one step further and talk about apologies or reparations. Im sure there will be lawsuits on the part of detainees. And so i dont think its entirely over. Thank you very much. Its great to see you again. Thanks for all of your reporting. Authorizing the controversial interrogation methods under the bush administration. On morning joe today, he questioned the Senate Report. I think there was a lot of cherry picking going on by this committee. This is a committee that started out with a conclusion. She started this investigation to make sure these things were never done again. Obviously when you start out with the conclusion, you can cherry pick through documents to make them fit, i think that any president in that circumstance given the information either as a cia presented it as senator feinstein thinks it should have been presented and the american president , i think, still would have ordered these interrogation methods. Im joined now by alberto morrow, the former council for the u. S. Navy. In 2002, he learned about abusive practices at guantanamo and wrote a memo to the pentagon warning against such practices. In 2006, he was honored with a profile in courage award for his moral courage and commitment to upholding american values. According the Kennedy Library foundation. Welcome, thank you very much. Nice to be here. I know that you have in the past disagreed with him. I think for all the criticism weve given to the cia justifiably, probably even greater criticism should be given to the department of justice and its utter failure to apply professional standards to the legal analysis of these issues. How so . The Justice Department knew that they were authorizing torture when they wrote those memorandum. And they had a primary obligation to protect and defend and follow americas laws. They failed to do that. What do you say to people who say it was after 9 11 the country was expecting another attack, we had to do anything that we could and that this was not technically torture under the geneva conventions . It was clearly torture. The Senate Report and the wealth of detail we now see about these techniques allows any reasonable person to conclude without any technical knowledge, the level of abuse was clearly torture. And yes, we were afraid we wanted to protect the country. Not only in the Defense Department and throughout the government, and we wanted to be aggressive in preventing further loss of life. But we need to be consistent to american laws and values. Everyone has focused ifffor years on waterboarding. Waterboarding is what we do to our own people before they become special forces. But in reading this report, it wasnt just the waterboarding. No. That would qualify as torture by any reasonable means. And many other people who went through a variety of techniques and were not waterboarded were also tortured. It doesnt have to be waterboarding to be torture. What about the lack of experience of the interrogators. You had these two psychologists who were paid, you know, more than 80 million. They had no experience with counterterrorism no experience with al qaeda, they didnt know the language, they didnt know the culture. Some of these interrogators didnt know what they were getting and werent the best equipped to find the truth from these detainees. Thats right. This is one of the most shocking and revealing things about the report. There was no scientific or technical basis to the adoption of the specific techniques. There was no method and no qualitative basis for applying these techniques other than the fact they were pure brutality. And then, on top of that, the individuals who designed the program and applied the techniques, no training or experience in these kinds of matters before. The incompetence of the program is one of the most shocking revelations of the Senate Report. Could that have happened without the white house counsel, chief of staff or the president of the United States understanding this . Certainly the National Security adviser . Its not clear what the president knew. And some of the details suggest that president bush may not have known the details. Until 2006 . Thats right. Until later. It seems the guidance he gave, the directions he gave to the team were to be aggressive, which is appropriate. But if he knew that the actual details, the fact it constituted torture is a matter thats still unclear. The rest of the team, though, who were actually intimately familiar with the techniques who understood the details in terms of design and application bear culpability for approving torture. What happened in 2002 when you wrote your memo objecting . I think ultimately, the Defense Department, secretary rumsfeld rescinded the authorization for the use of enhanced interrogation in guantanamo and ncis informed me the abuse of prisoners had stopped in february 2003 at the time. We thought in the pentagon, we meaning those who oppose this policy, including every military lawyer in the pentagon that the abuse had stopped within the military. We did not know the problem matastisizeded to the cia and elsewhere around the world. And this was before abu ghraib. 2002, early 2003. Well, thank you for your service. Thank you. Thanks for being here today. Thanks. And up next, lets make a deal. The immigration debate and big spending bill up in congress. Plus the cia contractors who made a bundle on the torture program. More revelations from the senates torture report coming up ahead. Youre watching Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. The dishes are clean. 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Joining me now, msnbc contributor or managing editor at post politics. Com and luke russert. Gentlemen, youve seen it all, seen it before, this is some of the worst legislating that takes place. The end of a session, they want to go home, theyve got spouses and children wanting to go on vacation, airplane tickets, and they start busting through this stuff and dont know what theyre voting for. Luke, youre up there on the hill. Tell me im wrong. This is really a christmas list of special interests. And theyre thousands of pages long, it was released publicly last night at 8 20 p. M. , the house plans on voting on it on thursday. The house has a 72hour rule for members to review the legislation. Its really only a 36hour, 72hour rule. It surely is not 72 hours. And youre starting to see some angst from members. Right before i came on your program, nancy pelosi just blasted out a statement saying that democrats are deeply troubled by two special interest provisions within this bill. One pertaining to a change in Campaign Finance laws where the individual amount one could give to a party would be up to 324,000. Another that has to deal with a part of dodd frank that would be gutted pertaining to derivatives and whether or not banks could trade in those if theyre fdic insured. So john boehner, andrea, needs democrats in order to pass this. If nancy pelosi is saying democrats should be in this bill, we might have to do some serious counting to the path of 218. Im not saying this is going to go downright now yet, but things got a little bit more interesting, andrea. Lets talk about home rule. What we used to call home rule. You know, we supposedly have a vote. We cant vote for a Voting Member of the house or senate. But we District Of Columbia residents are supposed to be able to vote. There was a referendum on legalizing marijuana. A lot of people voted for it. Now its been invalidated because congress can take things out of the District Of Columbia because were not either a state or entity in legal standing. I think this probably reups the state hood debate. But the problem there is, if you believe in statehood fervently, this is more sort of kindling to light that fire. A lot of people will not Pay Attention to it. But youre right. The fact that it was approved on a referendum, there was a vote on this. And then congress pulled it out in a 1600plus page bill is not exactly sort of the definition of democracy as we see it luke is right about this on the 36 versus 72 hours. The reason they rolled it out at 8 00 last night and the reason theyre voting in on thursday and trying to get out of town is for exactly the reason that they dont really want people to find out everything in the bill. Weve had situations like this in the past. All these names that have come for items that were put into bills like these. Bills like these that came out way after the fact. When somebody looked through the whole bill and said, wait a minute, we spent, fill in the blank, 250 million on this, why . They dont want that to happen because it would obviously slow momentum and raise sort of the political concerns some of these members might have of voting for something, which, frankly, if you spent every moment between the second it came out and the time they have to vote reading it, you probably still wouldnt read the whole thing. And maybe the biggest deal of all in terms of the toxic aspect of money in political campaigns, ten times the individual contributions, luke, how do they sneak that in . The Democratic National committee and the Republican National committee, and then, i guess, Nancy Pelosis probably not complaining about or maybe she is. Lifting the level, the overall level from 32,000 to 324,000. Without any debate, any public discussion . Well, i asked john boehner about this specifically. And he basically said that this was agreed to in a bipartisan way. Ill bet it was. And the public had shown interest in the past and no longer funding for parties conventions. And, of course, interestingly enough, this comes on the heels of something that was passed back in october that had to deal with kids cancer funding. One of the pay fors of that bill back in october of 2013, andrea, was, in fact, getting rid of public funding of political conventions. So what did they do in this bill . Theyre saying, well, theres no longer political funds, lets up the limits that individuals can give for conventions for, quote, building up the party and another fund for the party itself. So theyre all in on this. Make no mistake, this was certainly requested by the gop, but harry reid couldve locked it if he wanted, but he chose not to. Theyll enrich themselves from this specific provision. What im told is, look, its a completely new game. This, if anything is better because at least you know who the donor is individually who is giving that much. Sheds a little bit more sunlight in there. Theres no hearing on this type of issue, andrea. Yeah. Its nice to know the rich people who are giving 324,000 rather than public donations or a checkoff. Anyway, ive vented enough. Thank you very much, luke russert. And up next, speaking of outrages, dodging the question, the man who said obamacare was passed because voters are stupid lawyers up and his lawyer wont answer a simple question. He cant dodge kelly odonnell. How much was he paid . [coughing] dave, im sorry to interrupt. I gotta take a sick day tomorrow. Dads dont take sick days, dads take nyquil. The nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever, best sleep with a cold, medicine. Ring ring . Progresso you soup people have my kids loving vegetables. Well vegetables. Shh taste better in our savory broth. Vegetables . No. Soup oh soup loaded with vegetables. 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No regular blood monitoring; no known dietary restrictions. For information and savings options download the xarelto® Patient Center app, call 1888xarelto, or visit goxarelto. Com sometimes things are better left unsaid. That was not the case when m. I. T. Economics professor and white house obamacaadviser haul before congress on tuesday saying American Voters are stupid and were misled in order to get the Health Care Law passed. He came under fire, understandably, for refusing to answer how much he was paid. Reportedly millions. Do you think youve answered the question sufficiently today . Is your apology enough, dr. Gruber . How difficult was this today . How did you not mean what you were saying, dr. Gruber . Shes an emphatic one. Kelly odonnell, slowing down long enough to talk to us from capitol hill. Kelly, there you go again. Were going to start putting up a checklist of all the people youve chased down hallways. First of all, what was he thinking . How did he think he was going to get through this hearing . Reporter well, you know, i take no pleasure in chasing after people when theyre having a bad day, but this was a case where he had to know what he would be confronted with from members of congress. And he did come prepared to apologize repeatedly for comments he made at a series of academic events and conferences where he repeatedly referred to the American People as stupid and that a lack of transparency in the law was a political advantage, get it passed in order to get the law, which he believes in, in place. But to not have to deal with some of the questions about aspects of the law that have followed with the tough early rollout. But he also said of himself he was arrogant, he had been mean, he was trying to demean others to make himself feel smarter. This was a full throated apology. But where he really ran into trouble is when he was pressed about how much hed been paid by taxpayers, both at the federal government level and at the state level. Ive checked with the committee again. They say he has not provided more information that they requested. He acknowledged some earnings, but the committee estimated it could be more than 2 million in total. And he simply would not talk about that. He said take it up with my counsel. I wanted to play a little bit of the hearing you were covering yesterday. There were so many highlights. Lets watch. Were all of your prior statements a lie . Or were they just glib . Youre a professor at m. I. T. And worried about not looking smart enough . Night before last i was at the Kennedy Center honors where they honored tom hanks, famously, forrest gump. The ultimate in successful stupid man. Are you stupid . I dont think so, no. Does m. I. T. Employ stupid people . Not to my knowledge. Rough. Definitely rough. Part of what republicans were trying to say, andrea, is he said these things many times over and therefore they believe he actually meant them, not just an offhand remark that he wouldve liked to phrase differently, but things he really felt. He says thats not the case. And thats really the rub. If he actually believed that the public that he was contracted to serve is too stupid to understand the law, they have a real problem with that when it comes to the fact he was paid well for it and had been a policy adviser to this white house, also to mitt romney in massachusetts when they developed their Health Care Law. Then to the white house complex more than 20 times in a meeting with president obama once. Its one of those cases where the arrogance he admitted to is the kind of thing that congress seized upon. It was also, of course, the last hearing chaired by darrell issa, his last swing at the Health Care Law before the new Congress Comes in january. 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I think it was important for us to release this so that we can count for it so for people understand precisely why i banned these practices as one of the first acts i did when i came into office and hopefully make sure we dont make those mistakes again. President obama in his interview last night with my colleague. And joining me now to discuss the torture reports impact on the past and the future of the cia, Washington Post associate editor eugene robinson. Welcome, both. First of all, theres this issue of the two psychologists. Who made 80 million. Bruce jessen and James Mitchell. And weve got a clip of James Mitchell talking to vice news about all of this. This was an exclusive report on vice news. Does waterboarding tutorture . Well, we know it didnt in 2001 until 2006, 2007. I think you can do it in a way that constitutes torture, in a way that constitutes training. In a way that helps a person shift their priorities so they experience less abuse later on. Its like every tool in the tool bag. You can underuse it, you can overuse it. I dont know where to start. Well, first of all, what caribbean island was he on . Every tool in the tool bag. And now we know what some of these tools were. Some of them was a power drill and a gun held at the head of the bombing suspect blindfolded and hanging as the gun was waved around his head. And when he says you can use it in a way thats torture and a way thats not torture, read the report. They talk about the series of near drownings. And the bubbles coming up out of the mouth of zubaydah. And him passing out, which they only know because the medics kept records. No, they didnt. And the report is just breathtaking. Lets not forget that one detainee who was kept at a secret cia installation in afghanistan died of hypothermia because of the practice of that you know, keeping people naked in cold temperatures, kept this man without pants and a little shirt on and a cold room for a long time and he died. And some of them shouldnt been detained at all. Exactly. They didnt know who they had. The incompetent, as the former General Council to the navy who objected in 2002 in a memo to the practices that d. O. D. Was. In a memo very early on. So there was a chain of command on the military side. Told me earlier today on the show that every one of the lawyers in the military said you cannot do this. Because they had read the geneva conventions, the conventions against torture. U. S. Law, by the way. Yes, and law, good point. One of the things i found most shocking in the report was whether or not youre willing to sort of push the law. And when theres essential maybe timely information to be had from people, one of the things that the report details is they didnt sort of start with the soft stuff and playing good cop and then ramp up. They got good information. The i. D. Out of him before they ramped it up. But with others, they started by ramping up. It wasnt like they tried and resorted to these tactics. They started with these tactics. Its not american. And the other thing, andrea, they knew it was wrong. They knew it was wrong, there were let me push back on that, eugene. Yeah. To the extent they recall being told, the cia officials were being told. It was days after 9 11 when the president signed the secret order setting up these black sites, the prisons. And they were being told, do anything you can. Theres going to be another attack, 3,000 people have died. Im just trying to project the mindset within the agency was our bosses, which is the white house, and the Justice Department are telling us go this. But we learned from the report that there were cia employees who were physically ill as they watched this stuff happen. Other officials who wrote in memos saying, i want nothing to do with this. Im getting away from this, this is wrong. Get me out of here. So its not that, you know, there was, everybody was gung ho, lets go torture some folks. There were people that realized that, you know, this was more than skirting the line. This was way over the line. They also had previous experience that suggested to them as the report eventually found that this was not going to be effective in getting good information. How about the fact that he started making up stories like al qaeda was recruiting africanamerican muslims in montana to do to attack the United States. Right. Right. Right. Where to begin. And so do you believe that . Got some great information out of torture today. They knew it wasnt going to be effective. They kept claiming it was going to be effective. One of the things i found most shocking in the report, as well, they knew they needed the legal cover in order to do this. They went and got the legal cover, but they got it by giving false information according to the Intelligence Committee report to the lawyers who were then blessing what they did based on these false representations. Therefore, it wasnt valid, legal advice. If you lie to your lawyer, you dont get good advice. Ruth marcus, eugene robinson. Never lie to your lawyer. And ill never lie to you. And tense moments as she accepted her nobel peace prize. A man with a mexican flag interrupted the ceremony and was heard saying, please, malalah, talk about mexico. The ceremony continued without incident. And speaking to the crowd, she managed to mix humor with her trademark humility. One person who is 52 tall if you include my high heels, it means im 5 foot only. I am 66 Million Girls who are deprived of education. And today, im not raising my voice, it is the voice of those 66 Million Girls. And ah, so you can see like right here i can just. 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How far do they now have to go, though . Joining me now is the deputy washington director at human rights watch. And thanks so much for being with us, andrea. Good to see you. Tell me what you think having gone through the report and the reaction to the report, what are the next steps . Well, the report, the release of the report is the first step, of course, and its important to remember that was released was a redacted summary of a much larger report. The full report is 6,700 pages, weve only seen 500. And the redactions are significant. Of course, the cia and all the intelligence agencies fought for eight months for those redaxreda redactions. And it was a bitter fight. One of the most important thing senator udall said today, he asked the cia if they used pseudonyms instead of the other redactions in the report. If they used pseudo anymonyms w they be harmed . What the work shows is that there is so much more to do to really push back against the cias attempt to cover up its own criminal activity. Ive talked to people over there who said as they were fighting this redaction process, that in this day in age with the internet, the use of pseudonyms could quickly within seconds could be traced to a real person, either current or former covert officer because you can tell if you have a narrative that so and so checked into a hotel on such and such a day in islamabad and went here, went there. You can tell almost immediately who that person is. Sure, well, theres a question about why you would use one in the first place. Why arent their real names being used . These are people who should be indicted. They shouldnt have their identities protected. Again, just to push back. Eric holder and this administration had an investigation, and they concluded after an investigation that no one should be indicted. Well, you know, that investigation headed by john durham didnt actually, apparently didnt interview any victims of the cia abuse. Human rights watch uncovered what we believe was an additional incident of water boarding. Only three detainees were water boarded. We did research and found detainees sent to the same site documented in the report in afghanistan handed over to gadhafi to be tortured in his prisons, and they described waterboarding, corroborated by the report. When we asked those people were able to locate and interview, that has the department of justice come i by to ask you questions . They said no, and to this day, no one has interviewed them. Raises questions. Understood. Eric holder was on with my colleague joy reid after the report was released yesterday. I cant honestly say that crimes were committed. But i will say this, what we saw in the use of these enhanced interrogation techniques was not consistent with who we are, who we say we are as americans. They might have been legal in the strictest sense of the word. But i think in many ways, they were immoral. So you have legality, morality, different standards, obviously when you come to the criminal justice system. What are you going to do next. Im a lawyer, no lawyer can read that report and not see a clear case of criminal liability for many people up to the highest levels of the former administration. We have been calling for investigations and prosecutions for years, and we will continue to do so. Now, i dont expect holder to open up a new investigation any day in the u. S. But its important to remember that a convention against torture requires countries around the world to investigate people suspected of torture when theyre within their borders. That has happened before with respect to former president bush and it will again. Andrea, thank you so much, thanks for being with us from human rights watch. And we have breaking news from the world of late night television. Cbs has announced after 22 years David Letterman will host his final broadcast of late show on wednesday, may 20th next year. Letterman, a personal favorite of mine came to late night back in 1982. Steven colbert will take over for letterman as previously announced. And colberts last colbert report is next thursday. But we at least have a little more time with letterman to come. One of times persons of the year. Nancy writebol calling in. And this is Andrea Mitchell reports on msnbc. [ male announcer ] its a warning. A wakeup call. But its not happening out there. Its happening in here. [ sirens wailing ] inside of you. Even if youre treating your Crohns Disease or ulcerative colitis, an occasional flare may be a sign of damaging inflammation. Learn more about the role damaging inflammation may be playing in your symptoms with the expert advice tool at crohnsandcolitis. Com. And then speak with your gastroenterologist. How did edward jones get so big . Let me just put this away. Could you teach our kids that trick . [ male announcer ] by not acting that way. Its how edward jones makes sense of were for an opens you internet for all. Sing. Were for creating more innovation and competition. Were for Net Neutrality protection. Now, heres some news you may find even more surprising. Were comcast. The only isp legally bound by full Net Neutrality rules. An eclectic list of choices that includes taylor swift, Time Magazine named the annual person of the year. This morning on today, time revealed ebola fighters as the magazines top choice of 2013. And joining me now from new york is time editor in chief nancy gibbs. And joining us by phone is ebola survivor and fighter is Nancy Writebol who contracted the virus as working as a missionary in liberia. Congratulations, and if you can tell us how you narrowed it down to the ebola medical teams. Well, we looked at people who had a great deal of influence. We looked at vladimir putin, the founder of alibaba. At the ferguson protesters, we ended up feeling that the fight against ebola and those who were doing the fighting was particularly important story. It wasnt just that it required enormous courage on the part of those doctors and nurses and ambulance drivers. It was that the official response by national, International Organizations was slow and often ineffective. And the people on the front lines were the ones who bought us time to get the materials in place that we needed to fight this and keep it from being a much bigger outbreak than it was. And so thats why we felt thats where the focus needed to be. Nancy writebol, when did you get word . And whats your reaction to this . Well, i received word this morning. And it is a great honor to be part of a group of doctors and nurses and hygienists and ambulance drivers. And all of those who have been on the front helping to care for ebola patients. And really, the liberian doctors and nurses, they are the ones who are really the ones who received the credit for standing in the gap and for helping to care for so many ebola patients. And so its a great honor to just be a part of that. And it doesnt matter what the job was as far as what people were doing. There were people who were bringing meals and people who were doing the laundry, the scrubs and different, Different Things for the ebola patients and for the doctors and nurses. It took everybody. Especially at our elwa with our hospital there, dr. Jerry brown and just a privilege to be a part of s. I. M. On the campus there. And just to update, by the way, and keep the focus on the people who really going through this fight, the struggle. We now have updated numbers from the World Health Organization that there are 6,388 cases, the deaths so far. 17,942 i think i have that backwards. So the deaths are 6,388 and the cases are 17,942, just to clarify. And thats to put the focus on the people really going through it. As you point out, Nancy Writebol, that number is probably underreported, correct . Yes, i believe it probably is. Because theres just no way to have a really accurate figure in the way that deaths are reported when families were not even sure what they were dealing with. The numbers have to be larger than that. Well, thats the new cover, and Nancy Writebol, were so glad youre doing so well and dr. Kent brantly and all the others. Thanks for bringing this to us today. Congratulations on the Time Magazine cover. And that does it for us for this edition of Andrea Mitchell reports. Follow us onli online mitchellreports. Ronan farrow with whats coming up next. Weve got a lot of issues to delve into up ahead, including the report on cia torture practices. An interesti ining perspective that. A former director of the cia here to talk about what the other side of this argument looks like. Stick around for that, everybody. 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Some of the tactics that were written about in the Senate Intelligence report were brutal. And as ive said before, thats not who we are. On the other hand, cia defenders also out in force in a big way today. Former cia chief Michael Hayden tried to put the tactics in perspective on this mornings morning joe. We thought we were doing the nations will. And, in fact, having lived through the period, and even looking back on it now, i thi