Transcripts For MSNBCW American Voices With Alicia Menendez 20200927

Associate professor of Political Science at fordham university. Gabe, National Correspondent for new york magazine. Im going to start with you, christina, i mean, this is a story we have been waiting for. Shoo im not sure youve had a chance because it was breaking as we came on air. Big picture, the significance of the times gaining access to these tax returns, we know the president has fought not to have these released to the public. What do you see as the big top line . Well, i did read the article. Whats so important, you know, we have to remember this will not move the needle with his base, not one bit. So Many Democrats have been calling cal calling for the release of the taxes. We rye loely on americans for p to pay into the system to provide things such as schools and roads, police and fire, so many elements and policy elements of society we rely on. Sadly, we see millionaires and we can put that in quotes with donald trump, but wealthier americans always finding loopholes and so you have some of the poorest americans paying a much larger percentage of their income into the system. With donald trump, he said during the campaign, in 2015 and 2016, that he was being audited but once that audit was completed he would think about letting the American Public know. Many democrats have been calling for him to release his taxes just also to make sure there are no conflicts of interest as a president who has been known if anyone is from new york, hes owed money to several businesses, entities and banks over the past few decades. And so its very important that we know what the president s financial status is. We saw poor jimmy carter let go of his familys peanut farm just to make sure there wasnt any sense of impropriety and we see donald trump having multiple businesses, his children are getting paid from foreign entities as well. And its just not fair to the American Public to not know what the president has done but also its really not fair that the president has only paid 750 f th, if that much, over the past several decades. Gabe, we have dr. Greer framing this as a question of fairness, certainly a big part of this conversation, though, theres also the reality that as the times writes, the most successful part of the trump business has been his personal brand. That is an image that is then complicated when you see that he has been arguing many of these businesses are, in fact, losing money. Well, not nujust that, the extent of the losses outlined in the story, obviously i and others are digging through just came out. Staggering losses almost more than any other american and avoided paying taxes on his gains but also, you know, dealing with the fact of these losses for decades now but certainly in the last few years. While hes been portraying himself as this,maker, business president. If this is to be believed, that flies fully in the face of this image hes been painting for himself. The times story, in fact, believes theres ample reason to believe, essentially, i dont want to put words in their mouth, im paraphrasing here, that when he did decide to run for president in 2015, in many ways it was to make himself marketable again because he was losing so much money. By the way, these losses continue now and it seems very clear as this story outlines that hes living off of in many ways his Financial Wellbeing depends on gains from businesses while he is in office. As a result, hes still paying more taxes now to other to foreign governments because of his immense scheme of avoiding american taxes than he is to the government that he is essentially running right now. So this really is fairly remarkable story. I think theres going to be a lot more to digest here, obviously, as i said, were still digging through it. But it says a whole lot. This is something i think we should step back and recognize has been in the offing for quite some time. Its not just democrats whove been looking for this information, there has been, of course, a number of Congressional Democrats calling for it, theres a probe into this but also hundreds, if not thousands, of journalists, some republic republican s its really becaus the american taxpayers deserve a full picture of the actual Financial Wellbeing and financial state of this president. If he does claim to be this businessman president. And now we know the truth of that. I want to bring in david farenthold, were digging through this New York Times reporting, spanning two decades worth of tax records. I wonder what stands out to you from this reporting. They solved mysteries weve been working on for some time. One is donald trump has this huge string of allcash purchases he made starting in 200 20062007 that outwardly made no sense. Borrowed money to buy properties. Now all of sudden he was using cash to buy golf courses, hotels. We couldnt figure out where the money had come from or why he was doing it. It seemed dumb. The story said the money came from the apprentice and it basically was dumb, a dumb thing to. He brought the properties and they lost a huge amount of money. Took a good thing that he had, a lot of cash from the apprent e apprentice and spent it on golf courses that have lost money. Thats one thing. The other thing is the depth of the financial peril President Trump faces after he leaves office if he leaves office next year, he has a bunch of moneylosing properties that have really large loans that come due with personal guarantees from trump, himself, in the next two to three years. If he loses in november and becomes a private businessman, hes staring down the barrel of a huge number of financial problems that dont have Good Solutions especially in a time that covid is hitting the hospitality business. David, i should note as this news broke, President Trump was in the Briefing Room giving a briefing so reporters were able to ask him about that question. Were going to bring you that sound in just a minute. In the meanwhile, ill tell you, david, what he said, which is the story is, quote, totally fake, could have asked me the same question four years ago, i had to litigate this and talk about it, totally fake news. Actually, i pay taxes. He then says, i would be proud to show, that is fakeness, i mean, does that comport with what weve seen in the last four years . No, not at all. 100 not what weve seen. Hes had many, many chances since 2015 when he began running for fpresident to release his tx returns and always tried not to do it, in facts, he spent a lot of money and time litigating against congress and the manhattan d. A. To keep them from getting his tax returns. Far from not releasing his returns hes battled anybody whos tried to look at them. So i dont believe President Trump was being honest when he said hed be happy to release this information at any time. Kristen, i want to go to you, when david talks about the financial pressure the president is under and many of these loans coming due on the other side of his presidency, how does that relate to your larger point about the transparency that voters deserve . I mean, we know this president has not been truthful with the American Public. I think david brings up a really important point. The reason why this president wants to stay in office by hook or crook, lying, cheating, or stealing or helping the Supreme Court keep him there is because he knows the attorney general of new york state has several cases that she wants to bring with donald trump as the defendant. We know that states like new jersey, even florida, could have legitimate cases against this president and because of the financial dealings to say nothing of some of the Sexual Assault charges still working their way through the courts from the various women whove accused the president of sexual impropriety. As an american citizen, hes looking at the criminal Justice System in a very different way. So the American Public obviously deserves this but we know donald trump has been kicking the can down the road and saying, oh, you know, of course, i would release it. Yet, he never has. This is the same way he says, of course, ill give you a plan for health care, yet he never will. Right . This is every two weeks. He did this during the Campaign Season and done it essentially throughout this entire tenure as the presidency. I dont think donald trump wants the American Public to really see his taxes because hes always tried to have it both ways as a new yorker. He wants to stay hes super broke so he doesnt have to pay his fair share as an american, he wants to rent this image as though shes a millionaire with incredible amounts of debt that no one else would be able to have. So its one of those, you know, old adages where its, you know, if i owe you, you know, a thousand dollars, you know, you have me over a barrel. If i owe you 10 million, i have you over a barrel. And so thats what Donald Trumps been able to do successfully to so many banks and so many businesses over the years and they keep loaning him money and his taxes represent just a failed businessman. Hes been able to sell himself to a certain portion of the American Public as a Success Story when many new yorkers and people of new jersey know that thats quite honestly not the case. I want all of you to listen to this sound. Its President Trump responding to a reporters question about this new reporting around his taxes. Take a listen. Its fake news. Its totally fake news. Made up, fake. We went through the same stories. You could have asked me the same question four years ago. I had to litigate this and talk about it. Totally fake news. No. Actually, i paid tax, but, and youll see that as soon as my tax returns its under order. Theyve been under order for a long time. The irs does not treat me well. David, before you joined, dr. Greer was making the point that none of this will actually move the needle with his base, but i do wonder if there are vote who are are undecided who are going to be reading this reporting then seeing how the president is responding. If that will factor into their choice of who to vote for in the runup to november. Who knows. I really you never know what mood people could change their vote. One thing thats important for me, its important for voters to see the world as donald trump sees it. Theres always been a part of his world we could never see, that was his business. He knows whats happening there, knows the problems, perils, pressures, business is presenting to him. He knows who his customers are, whos helping him, whos not. We dont. Its impossible to really understand the way hes acting as president and until you see that part of his life. Now we see that. Voters see him maybe not completely in full but understand him and see the world the way he does. Its an important way of evaluating who he is, whether people should vote for him or not. The times notes, its important to remember the returns are not an unvarnished look at trumps business activity, they are, instead, his own portrayal of his companies compiled for the irs. In that composite, though, is questions about the money hes received from foreign sources. The times writing, hes received more money from foreign sources and u. S. Interest groups than previously known. The records do not reveal any previously unreported connections to russia. Gabe, this is, of course, a developing story. What more do you want to know on that point, specifically . Well, i mean, as the times story gabe, go ahead. As the times story correctly points out, this is not a full picture of the president s finances. Theres still a lot more that we dont know about his foreign dealings, specifically, and when it comes to questions of his russian business interests, in particular, obviously, this is there have been probes into this for quite some time. I think one of the things we saw the president try to do there is really try to brush this off as if to say, please stop asking questions about this, theres nothing to see here. That cannot be disentangled from the reality o the election season. Over the last few weeks youve seen joe biden try to take a specifically populist turn saying this is an election between main street and park avenue, of course, how hes trying portray the president. If you do have all this evidence that the president has all these foreign business entanglements, this story is talking about, has this scheme of avoiding taxes for such a long time, obviously, that fits right into joe bidens message and as you were just pointing out, there is still a lot that we dont know. Obviously, you know, im still going through this story, myself, as we all are. I would not be surprised if there are more developments on this in the coming days and week as people read more into these documents. Of course, david will probably know more about that than i would. David, i want to give you one last chance to jump in, i know you wanted to jump in on the question of foreign sources. Well, one thing that i was really excited by, i hope to see more of, is theres information not just about the licensing payments he gets from his partners in the overseas countries, which we know about, we know who these people are, also peopl ballrooms. Can pay 400,000 for a particular event. The more we learn about that, we learn how people have changed the way they pay him, after he became president , and could do favors for them. All right. David fahrenthold, thank you so much. Lets bring in monica alba at the white house. What are you hearing from team trump . This is so significant for several reasons, alicia. The first thing, of course, nbc hasnt inget lindependently rev the documents. The president s tax returns is something weve been talking about for years since thencandidate trump promised to release them. Of course, he never did. He continually would say each year during the administration that they were under audit. Thats something he continued to claim today in this press briefing. So often when the president is brought something that he really deems unfair, he simply decries it as fake news. He dismissed the story completely as a totally fake, in his words, and if the past is any indication, thats something usually that the president does as a kneejerk reaction when really its something that really gets under his skin and jut s upsets him. We know the issue of tax returns is Something Like that because for years democrats have been pushing and, of course, there were those two cases before the Supreme Court just last month that dealt with the president s tax returns. One that really was on the hill and one that is the subject of investigation in new york. And neither and ultimately, resulted with us getting our hands on those tax returns and certainly no indication that will happen before the election but it continues to be critical and, yes, the New York Times has said this is just the first of several reports but i think there if you saw the president , his sort of anger and the way he dismissed it, thats a good preview of what hes going to continue to say. That entire News Conference was so unusual for a lot of reasons, alici alicia. First of all, hes currently right now supposed to be meeting behind closed doors with goldstar families and first lady. Hes doing this freewheeling News Conference with Chris Christie and his personal attorney rudy giuliani. This was added to the schedule very late in the day but before this major New York Times story broke. Its possible, of course, the white house had a headsup it was coming when asked for comment. They wanted to get out and respond to it. He didnt bring it up. Instead, he went on a major myriad of topics from railing against his opponent, former Vice President joe biden, talking about tremendous enthusiasm at his own rallies and going on and talking also about the nomination of judge Amy Coney Barrett. It was only when a reporter in the question and answer section brought up the New York Times report that the president dismissed it. This is not something hes going to able to brush aside, alicia, as many people will continue to ask him questions and can bet it will come up in the first general Election Debate on tuesday night in cleveland. As we dig through this story, dr. Greer, i do want to highlight one part of it. Mr. Trump classifies much of the spending on his personal lifestyle as the cost of business, that includes haircuts, more than 70,000 to style his hair during the apprentice. Clearly, theres a lot of macro, big, important stuff happening about the way he runs his business or at least the imprison i impression he wants to give of the way he runs his business. There are also items like that that i imagine complicate the brand that he relies on. Right, well, im actually tempted to believe that he does spend 70,000 on hair and possibly a little bit more on makeup. But i do think that this president has been able to avoid so many so many issues that other candidates never would have survived. I mean, the fact that we know at donald trump has several businesses, alicia, we talked about this years ago when donald trump first became president and we knew he would look at the reservation book of the trump hotel in d. C. It see who was staying there, going back to davids previous point. You know, the fact that so many foreign governments were staying at the trump hotel when he first became president because they knew that the president was observing that and knew that it would affect their relationship with him in a positive direction because thats the way the president operates in this wheeling and dealing way where at the end of the day, hes a casino owner, was a casino owner. The house always wins. Thats his meendsindset. Whats best for him. Its really important we dont drop this story. Democrats are going to have to walk and chew gum a the same time, think about the Supreme Court nomination, keep put pressure on the Republican Party whos trying to repeal the aca during a Global Pandemic and the fact that the president possibly has not paid any taxes, when there are millions upon millions of americans, who are unemployed, seeking work, and have still been paying into the american tax system. This is something the president cannot just write off as fake news. For so long hes said the media has no validity especially when they talk about stories that he doesnt like, but we cannot let that become the norm. Especially so close to an important election. Where it theres clearly a history of the president sidestepping his duty as an american citizen. And now that he is head of the american democracy, he needs to act as such. If he hasnt been, he needs to be held accountable. Gabe, you have dr. Greer underlining this question of fairness. When we talk aboutsaying, why s person whos uber wealthy not be paying the same tax rate, proportional rate, someone whos working class, middle class. The argument the times is making, he wasnt paying taxes as someone in his same income bracket, saying hes paid about 400 million less. 400 million less in combined federal income taxes than a very wealthy person who paid the average for that group each year. How does that further complicate the picture . Well, heres the thing thats really complicated for the president. The question of taxes, i may not be the right person to talk about how much money someone spends on haircuts for obvious reasons, but when it comes to when it comes to paying taxes every single american is aware of how much that costs them personally. Its a very personal issue to a lot of people. Theres a reason that people talk about taxes all the time. Specifically, these days with President Trump because, again, hes portraying himself as this ultimate businessman. There is is an assumption, the more money you make, the more taxes youre paying. If its true, again, appears to be, the president paid 750 in 2 years and nothing at all for many other years over the last decade or so, that is something thats really going to resonate with every single american who reads this story because every single american deals with the tax system in one way or another. Thats one of the reasons that you see him brush this off so easily, well, not easily, but so readily because he doesnt want to engage in this conversation about basic fairness in the american system. When hes asked about this in the past, he often says things like, well, its not a fair world, you got to take advantage of whatever system you can. Thats a very difficult case to make when these records are out there in a very credible report and during an election season. By the way, we really cant forget, there is this pandemic going on that has really devastated the economic picture for a ton of americans who are really wondering not only where the next paycheck is going to come from but if the government is going to come through with another round of covid relief checks and for a lot of these people, who are really trying to, you know, trying to live paycheck to paycheck right now, to see these reports that the president is essentially not paying into the government whatsoever, and avoiding this while, you know, making massive losses, its going to be very painful and very difficult for him from a political perspective to try and thread that needle. I want to bring in jameel smith now, a Senior Writer for rolling stone. A lot to dig through here. What most stands out to you . Frankly, alicia, i think what stands out to me is the audit situation. You talk he says that he says his audits are delaying his release of his taxes. He statistically said this. However, he never really talks about when these audits are for. This report details that, in fact, therefore, the 72. 9 million that he received in a federal refund, now, as im trying to imagine receiving anywhere, you know, close to that, and hes been fighting over this apparently for decades, and its really about whether or not he gets to keep this, you know, federal, state, and local funding that hes received essentially for being a bad businessman. I think thats really going to be hard to explain to the American People if, in fact, hes questioned on it. Dr. Greer, the audit, what say you . I agree with jamil. The thing is the president has always tried to have it both ways. One, that hes this incredible businessman who , a, doesnt read, but inherently knows how to run a business, also when it comes to the federal government, he needs handouts. Hes consistently gotten handouts. If asked in either the debates, we know his supporters wont ask but, you know, lets just say his Favorite Network decides to broach this subject. It is going to be difficult to explain why it is you received essentially a 72 million handout youve been fighting to keep and we know donald trump has already spent that money on bad businesses. Those of us in new york who know Donald Trumps businesses, everything we has touched has failed from the First Business that his father gave him and the ways his father consistently bailed him out over the years. So this is not surprising at all, but its really going to take journal iists to consisteny ask the president in succinct ways to explain as jamil outlined why it was that audit was taking place in the first place. And what is to be done moving forward and so in the days to come to the election, the president can no longer hide behind this idea that he will release them at some point, in two weeks or soon. I think were, as americans, owed that, spoesh especially th us, as an issue, we now we have free riders in america. So many of us are diligently payipa payipa paying into the system in the midst of high unemployment rates because we believe in this nation and cannot have an executive who doesnt do that. Monica, there are multiple components to this story and this a story that is continuing to develop, in fact, the New York Times has to continue to watch this space because there will be more reporting coming. Monica, from the Vantage Point of the white house, there is this question of fairness, of the president s tax rates. Theres the question of the president s brand. So much of it built on this idea of being a successful businessman. A lot of these tax records revealing that his businesses are actually losing money. Theres the question of money coming from foreign sources. What is the white house most concerned about when it comes to this litany of issues . Yeah, im really struck, alicia, by how inextricably linked the president s own businesses are with his presidency. Perhaps, no one in modern history has profited more personally from what he has been able to do while in office. Just look at today, for example. He spent a good five or six hours at his trumpbranded Golf Property in sterling, virginia, something he does, weve tallied, weve kept extensive records at nbc news, hes spent about a third of the time hes been in office, a portion of a day, at a trumpbranded property. This is something weve continued to see, though, he has distanced himself and he has really put his son in charge of the businesses. Hes still completely involved , the trump name is on all of this and has benefited greatly from whatever secret Service Contracts he continues to put no these properties weve learned about that have also been hit, we should point out, by the coronavirus pandemic. Youre right. We should really note here, alicia, the president has broken with precedence in terms of not releasing these tax returns. Hes the first, i believe, in 40 years, not to put the tax returns out. We cant understate that enough, how significant it is. Its something we might forget because its been nearly four years. Its something he promised to do that he didnt do. The other thing is this is a white house that has continued to make the argument that the president enjoys such great financial success, that he can donate his quarterly sall eary various agencies. Thats something theyve played up repeatedly and really doesnt square as much then with this image that the New York Times is painting where they say really he has been more somebody playing the role of a successful businessman as opposed to actually being one in real life, alicia. I want to bring in msnbc political analyst Zerlina Maxwell to get her thoughts. Zer lelean lean of course, this story breaking as we came to air. What stands out most to you . What stands out to me, its a validation of the Previous Report from the New York Times but also a lot of the information ma mary trumps boo about how the family used tax avoidance schemes over many, many decades. It seems like thats one of the reasons President Trump didnt want to follow precedent and release hid ts tax returns. Its more fodder as we head into the fall. Certainly, its another thing the president probably doesnt want to be talking about so close to the election day. Talking about not just in prox im proximity to the election, dr. Greer, but talk about set against the backdrop of trying to push through a Supreme Court nominee on an incredibly tight timeline that seems particularly relevant given the role that the Supreme Court has played in deciding whether or not the president s taxes should be released to congress. Whether or not so i wonder what you make of the timing of these two stories, both the reporting from the New York Times, looking at his tax records, and his nomination of Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court happening in tandem. Right. I mean, we know that the American Public tends to have a relatively short attention span, alicia, what i think complicates this even further is that the president s coattails are quite weak going into election day. That means there are many u. S. Senators, republican senators, and members of the house, republican members of the house, in a weakened position because drup onald trump is not as strot the top of the ticket. Were seeing people like Lindsey Graham in a fight for his life to keep his seat. Were seeing georgia now quite purple and in play. Were seeing arizona with some interesting races. And so the fact that the president isnt going into november 3rd as a strong top of ticket means a lot for republican senators, republican members of the house and even republicans in local elections. And so that coupled with this idea that the president has nominated someone for the Supreme Court but republican senators are the ones who have to support him. Theyre feeling a touch off kilter, that complicates his relationship with them. Thats not to say that they wont fall in line as they have for the past threeplus years. It definitely complicates the president s narratives and motives and ability to wrangle his own party to get something that he wants quite quickly before november 3rd. Jamil, i want to jump in there . Yes. I think really what we need to think about i think oh, sorry. No, no, its fine, zerlina. The thing we need to think about is the fact really republicans are selling and building plutocratic state and they cant tell the voters that. They have to sell them on racism, they have to sell them on this kind of fake populism, whatever. The point is, here this news focuses back focuses us back on what the Republican Party is actually doing. What this president is actually doing in office to serve rich people like himself. And i think really if we start thinking about what the Republican Party is actually doing, as opposed to what theyre selling, i think well be a little be serving the votesers b voters better as journalists and as media. Zerlina . I was going to agree with dr. Greer. Also jamil makes a really good point, the president is talking about being a lawandorder president. Hes using these racist dog whistles. At the same time, theres evidence, ample evidence now, that he has spent decades breaking the law, ims. How are you going to run on a lawandorder message when you dont follow the law, yourself . I think as we head into the election season, you know, theres a lot of conversation about whether we are headed toward authoritarianism. One of the tenets of that is the breakdown of the rule of law. So this i agree with jamil puts the conversation back on the fact that the president , himself, does not think the rules apply to him. I want to pull up this tweet, i hope we have it, from senator Chuck Schumer. It is an emoji raising its hands saying raise your hand if you paid more in federal income tax than President Trump. I mean, gabe, hard to see how this doesnt become a big story in the days and weeks leading up to this election. Oh, absolutely, but i think that that tweet from senator schumer, which i havent seen yet, but ill take your word for it, speaks exactly like the speaks exactly to the message that a lot of democrats are going to have here, which is not necessarily fnarrowly focused o the president s tax avoidance or Business Practices but broadly within the teem heme of fairnes something joe biden has been talking about quite a bit but see a lot of downballot democrats talking about in some places where they dont want to make particularly when they dont want to make it a referendum on the president but more about the state of the country right now. When you talk about economic fairness, its a very, very powerful way to get through to voters right now, particularly in the middle of this pandemic that is hurting so many people, not just in terms of their health but also in terms of their wallets and when you also have at the same time this Supreme Court case touching son or Supreme Court issue touching on so many related issues and not only on the Central Health care issue that democrats are talking about, i wouldnt be surprised at all to see democrats phrase frame the final few weeks here as really a question of basic fairness, who stands with you, who doesnt. Having these documents, these primary documents now, for the first time really does help them make that case. I wouldnt actually expect that all of a sudden democrats are going to pivot to talking about this because what theyve been trying to do, if you Pay Attention to the words that a lot of them are saying, is really trying to Pay Attention trying to zoom in on for individual voters how decisions affect their bottom line. How their daytoday lives are affected. Now, most of our daytoday lives are not affected by the way that the president treats his taxes except for in the absolute top, top sense that he is not paying that much and, therefore, theres less taxes in the national coffers. But thats a fairly convoluted case to make. The bigger case to make, much easier case to make and the obvious one that they will be making is its simply not fair, hes treating himself as someone different. As i suspect well see, a lot of republican senators and lawmakers have become incredibly good at saying no comment, havent seen t i wouldnt ve be shocked if we saw anything other than that in the coming days. All right. I want to continue this conversation with florida congresswoman Debbie Mucarsel powell. Thank you for your time. Im sure at this point youve had a chance to see the times reporting. What most stands out to you . What actually stands out to me is something thats very clear in the pattern of the behavior of this president. That donald trump cheats. Its obvious that if he didnt pay taxes for someone that owns huge corporations, not just here nationally but internationally, whos skipping his tax bill, its clear that he has been cheating the system and its extremely insulting to the thousands of working families that live here in my district, alicia, who work very hard, who file their taxes on time, pay thousands of dollars every single year doing the right thing, and you have a president who because we were trying to get his tax returns released, congress has been trying to enforce this, finally this comes out and we see that he hasnt been paying taxes for years. We see theres some foreign money coming through. We see that he is now showing higher losses than earnings. America wants to place their trust in, when were facing one of the economic recessions since the great depression. Hes fonot going to rebuild our economy. Hes not going to put the health of americans first. Its been very clear from the very beginning and now we have further proof from that. Dr. Greer, you hear what the congress wo congresswoman is saying, tieing it to the economy and lived experiences of Many Americans specifically during this pandemic. Is that the way for democrats to talk about this story in terms of impact, in terms of fairness, rather than talking about in terms of taxes and tax releases which can often seem like a process question . Right. Its very important the democrats dont get too sort of in the weeds and keep this as an issue, as gabe had mentioned before, where its kind of a process question that doesnt connect with voters. We know that voters go to the polls oftentimes for pocketbook issues. They ask themselves am i better off right now than efs four years ago . Far too Many Americans are going to absolutely not the case. The interesting thing about donald trump and this tax issue, the reason why so many republicans are going to say no comment, is because many of them have been avoiding their own tax debts and debts to the American People as well. Mall come x. Said when White America catches a cold, black america gets a pneumonia. So many black americans and latinx and native americans who have been devastated financially by the coronavirus pandemic. To say nothing about health wise and the wants to repeal the aca by donald trump and the Republican Party. So when they go to the polls on november 3rd or if theyre voting early, theyre going to ask themselves, you know, beyond the chaos, beyond the racist dog whistles, these past few years have been able to succeed in this nation with donald trump as a leader . I think what scares the president and his fellow Party Members is that they know that far too many, more than 2. 9 million americans, are going to say, absolutely not, im not better off now than i was when donald trump first took office. Congresswoman, before i let you go, you and i were supposed to be talking today before this news broke about legislation that you are proposing to tackle disinformation, especially disinformation that targets the Latino Community because it turns out that whatsapp is now a breeding ground for disinformation. It used to just be for the whackiest memes. But my question to you on that, and my question to you on this, is in some ways the same. My question is going to be is it hard to tackle disinformation when some of the disinformation about voting comes from the president , himself . How do you tackle the question of the release of these taxes when you have the president inside the Briefing Room saying that he is willing to release them even though hes proven that he is not. Yeah, i mean, like i was sayingpattern of behavior by this president. And what theyve been doing is targeting the latino voters here in florida with misinformation, but whats most alarming, alic a alicia, its not only on the whatsapp and social media outlets. Its starting to spread in mainstream media. We saw a 40page insert that was included in a noble herald, sister pain tore the miami herald, one of the main newspapers here and filled with antisemitic and racial slurs. This had been going on, alicial for over a year. Its just incredible that no one paid attention to this. Filled with rightwing conspiracy theories. Some of them tied to qanon. We know russia interfered in the 2016 election. We have evidence of that. We also know theyre doing it again to help president donald trump. So this is all part of a larger scheme for donald trump to do whatever he can with republicans in washington, d. C. , being complicit, aleash ya. Complicit, aleash ya its time for our republican colleagues to stand up to this. Yeah, the American People deserve transparency. They deserve the truth. This president is doing everything he can right now to make sure that he grabs on to power and remains in the white house ignoring the will of the American People. All right. Congresswoman Debbie Mucarsel powell, thanks so much for your time. If youre just joining us, were following breaking news that the New York Times has obta obtained more than 20 years of tax records from President Trump. It revealed that the president paid zero income taxes at all in 10 of the previous 15 years. The times notes thats largely because he reported losing much more money than he made. The report also reveals that President Trump paid 750 in federal income taxes the year he won the presidency and another 750 during his first year in the white house. Trump responded to the report just a short time ago. Its fake news. Its totally fake news. Made up. Fake. We went through the same stories, you could have asked me the same questions four years ago. I had to litigate this and talk about it. Totally fake news. No. Actually, i paid tax but, and youll see that as soon as my tax returns its under order. Theyve been under order for a long time. The irs does not treat me well. Joining me now, stephanie ruhle, msnbc Senior Business correspondent. Steph, we know the times reporting that President Trump paid no federal income taxes in 11 of the 18 years that the times examined. How surprising should that be . Not necessarily surprising because President Trump told us back in 2016, im a vsavvy businessman, how much i have to pay in my taxes. Thats not a surprise. What is a surprise is if you look at how many losses he took and was able to write them off, i. E. , not pay taxes, meaning he was never an especially good businessman, in fact, he plays a businessman but all he does or consistently loses money. Now, thats not going to get voters to say, what, hes not successful . Suddenly i dont like him. Whats going to be most concerning for voters is exactly how he made the money, what he made it from. The New York Times reporting, he, himself, made 2. 5 million from Miss Universe moscow. Who organized Miss Universe moscow for him . The agelorof family with close ties to vladimir putin. In it, he has proceeds from fame. The big question will be, did he manipulate his earnings . Did he cook the books to avoid getting taxes to get himself loans, to secure financing from banks . The question here will be, did he do something illegal in order to pay the least amount of tax as possible . If its just, oh my gosh, he didnt make any money and he didnt pay any taxes, thats embarrassing, thats laughable, but thats not necessarily going to impacting voters. Impacting voters will be, who does he owe money to, how did he operate his business . Steph, i want to ask you a question about how unusual some of this is because there are many of us who are not dealing with the type of tax bills that you have President Trump dealing with. He has reduced his tax bill with questionable measures including 72. 9 million tax refund thats the subject of an audit by the irs. How unusual is it to reduce a tax bill in that we, steph . Its highly unusual. It means you are doing some sort of financial gymnastics and manipulating your finances in a way that clearly doesnt make sense. If you notice, he said over and over, it wasnt me, the accountant signed off on it. Thats why his accountant has been subpoenaed over and over since President Trump took office. Right . Hes going to say, oh, they signed off on it, theyre the accountant. But its either he was losing an extraordinary amount of money or his entire business was a bit of a tax scam the way it was set up, given how much he was writing down. All right. Steph, i want you to stay with me. I want to bring in david k. Johnson, a journalist, tax expert and author of the making of donald trump. What stands out to you from this reporting . Well, donald showed in just two years, 2008 and 2009, 1. 4 billion of losses. Now, were those legitimate losses or not . Thats going to be the core question. Did donald trump fabricate losses . He did this in the past. His 1984 income taxes, he lost both trials. In addition, the New York Times report which is intensely detailed. I can tell you as a former times reporter, a story like this was gone over very, very carefully by probably about three dozen editors, not to mention the lawyers who went over it. Raises fundamental questions about why trump keeps saying the accountants approved it. Thats why its so important that the Manhattan District Attorney get the emails and the communications back and forth because donald has been known to tell accountants this is the number i want, figure out how to produce that number on a document. And it is possible for someone to have a Great Fortune and lose money legally, if they own a lot of depreciable real estate, which is buildings, not land. Donalds real estate golf courses and enormous losses of his golf courses. An average about 15 million a year. More than a Million Dollars a month in this century. Well, there isnt that much there at a golf course that appreciates. Something doesnt add up. The times is promising, theres more to come. They put more in their piece, which as i said is incredibly detailed, has really good graphics, that there are more stories coming from his tax information. David, what do you anticipate those stories will be . Well, what we dont have here is anything about his sources of money. We know from business deals that ive taken apart, other journalists have taken apart, donlt h donald has gotten a great deal of money under circumstances that arent explainable as normal business deals but, frankly, make perfect sense if youre Money Laundering or payoff operations. A tax return wont tell you about those. Its the books and records. And the times story does not say this explicitly. It talks about whats said in the law, tax information. It seems to suggest they also have some Accounting Records or some kind of documentation beyond this. So i would expect one thing we will see from the times slykely slyke is likely to be, where did he get some of this money . Thats a crucial National Security question. We have the president of the United States who says he trusts the dictator in moscow and does not trust our loyal american National Security authorities. Thats something thats just beyond if youd written that in a novel before Donald Trumps election, your publisher wouldnt publish the book because its not believable and yet thats whats happened. Steph, your reaction to what david just said. The big question is going to be his source of financing. Remember, no major u. S. Bank was willing to do business with the trump for years. It was only deutsche bank. Deutsche bank on the institutional side, thats where you do business banking, kind of halfway through the relationship punted him and sent him to the private wealth side where there has always been questions. But if you even just go through this New York Times reporting, 2018, alone, he announced in his disclosure that he made at least 434 million. The tax records, they show that his bottom line that year, he lost 47 million. Now, what the president is going to say, im a businessman, i have very complicated business dealings, or im making money on one thing, im losing money on another, its complicated. Thats what hes going to say in the White House Press Briefing Room then hes going to move on from it, but to davids point, this is just the beginning. This New York Times reporting basically cracked this coconut open and theres going to be a lot to dig into from here. Jamil, i want you to zoom out for me and talk to me a little bit about the consequences of this conversation around the sources of income, the sources of money. Why does that become so critical in the larger context of this election and the argument that joe biden is trying to make about donald trump. Well, quite simply, alicia, most of us dont have access to those sources of money. We dont have access to these, you know, banks or wealth firms or what have you that provide him with the kind of parachute that most of us would, you know, simply see a collection call or collection letter in the mail. You know, for about that 750 that he paid to the federal, you know, federal taxes last year, i mean, a lot of us, you know, Chuck Schumer says, he paid as much of that in taxes, i mean, people are paying more than that in rent. People are paying more than that on their car note, utilities. And so thats where the democrats need to keep this conversation. I mean, you know, lot of folks are used to paying taxes. It comes out of our check. What have you. We are seeing the unfairness of this system manifest in how this man has been able to survive and manifest success in this ostensible way by perpetrating himself as this, you know, this millionaire when hes actually not. It strikes me that were about yeah, go ahead. Thats going to be a really hard argument for democrats to make. You cant simply make the argument, weve got people in this country who are living paycheck to paycheck, why on earth would a president be this wealthy . Democrats arent going to make that argument because youve got scores of elected democrats who are so are super, super wealthy. Its not about are you wealthy or not, is that fair in the american system . Its going to be, how did he become this wealthy, where is he getting this money from, and who does he owe money to . Right . If he is somebody who was losing money year after year, we know he bankrupt you know, he has over six bankruptcies. The question is going to be, who did he owe money to . And is it a conflict of interest . Are those businesses or individuals getting unethical, immoral, or illegal, favors that the president is able to give because hes the president . Zerlina, it strikes me were about 48 hours from the first president ial debate and there are a list of issues that they are going to be focusing on. At the top of that list is the trump and biden records. This would seem to complicate what will need to be focused on when it comes to Donald Trumps record. I certainly think it complicates his record, but i think it hits at really what the central theme throughout, i think, everything since impeachment which is the inherent corruption, the pay to play, the seemingly illegal conduct, and investigators are looking into that in a number of ways and now we have more hard evidence. And so i think donald trump will be in somewhat of a defensive position, although its not as if he lets facts get in the way. And i think that the fundamental concern for americans, i dont necessarily care as much about how much money donald trump has. I do care about how much taxes hes paying on that money, but more importantly, i care, to stephanies point, where the money is coming from because thats a National Security issue. Where is his money coming from . Does he owe someone . Can he be blackmailed . All of these are questions that came up in the beginning of the russia investigation and they fell off because we never we learned later that they really didnt look into much of the business contacts that he had with russia and other nations but also it fell off because we did not have the hard evidence we do now. People are based on the best interest for his bottom line. Dr. Greer, your take how this will play out on tuesday . It has to be at both ends. I think joe biden should definitely make this the forefront of the issue. Donald trump will say its fake and i want to move on. A portion of the electret is going to care about just how this effects Donald Trumps b behavior with foreign entities. Joe bides evn and local level, e are many people sitting in jails across the country because they couldnt pay a parking ticket under 750. There are people who are sitting in jails and prisons across the country because of minor offenses that were under 500. If joe biden is effectively able to look at the American Public and make that link that says you are not living in the same country that treats you with the same level of fairness, dignity and respect because donald trump is able to say i dont want to do it and hes been able to get away with that, that hits democratic voters and even undecided voters in a very different way. So i think joe biden on tuesday needs to employ a multi Level Strategy because certain issues will move democrats in one way but, you know, for Many Democrats, it has to really be a pocketbook issue in the midst of a Global Pandemic and economic recession for voters of color and voters honestly across all 50 states. David, there are two lingering questions around this. The first is will he release, will he release, will they be released in some form . There is access to them on the part of the times and you have this secondary question of why . Why is he choosing not to release them . Is in these tax returns that he does not want the American People to see . Do you feel that question was in someway answered by this initial reporting . Yes, why he doesnt want to see them, we have known for a long time. This really does tie this down. Indeed, the two years that donald paid 750, thats just a plug. It very clear that is not what the end result would be and the fact that the years he did pay, he can get that money back in future years because of something called the alternative minimum tax and how its applied to Real Estate Developers unede rules donald trump in the early 1990s. He went to washington to lobby for the rules to give special tax breaks to people in real et sta estate should be a front and center concern. The simple fact here is that donald trump has this history of tax cheating. He has a history of hiding books and records, and once you have signed your tax returns and submitted it, releasing it changes nothing. So the only reason hes wanting to keep this secret is the same thing ive seen him do for the 32 years ive written about him. He has a problem that he doesnt want you to understand. He wants to pose as a rich businessman when in fact, he is not a businessman. He gets his hands on an enterprise and pulling out all the cash he can and it collapses and the detailed reporting in the times shows many of his businesses are losing money left and right so that goes to the question of well, then, where is he getting his financing . Are there russian oligarchs behind his loans to dueutsche bank . In short, is donald trump disloyal to the United States and to the constitution he swore to defend and protect . David, do you see a connection . Were talking about the fact he is under tremendous financial pressure and then the proximity of this election, the necessity of winning reelection, how do you die those two stories together . Do you see them as being tied . Well, i was saying five years ago that if donald became president , he would do everything he could to become our dictator and i see thats entered the common debates since his own statements he might not relink wiquish control. I expect donald will do everything he can to insulate himself from a federal investigation. My news service d. C. Report reported on a donald trump supporter that lives one door away from maralago who is getting 100 million a year while paying no income taxes and when donald took office, the irs investigation mysteriously stopped of the trump supporter and we had written proof he was under criminal investigation before that. I cant imagine that the i rrrs pressing donald trump about the audit and the money that the irs believes he owes. Its just not realistic to think they would directly do what theyre required to do by law and that is to pursue this as they would with any other american. You know, donald trump is our employee. He is not our ruler. Hes a ruler. He says i have article two that lets me do anything i want, which tells you donald has no idea whats in our constitution. I want to read you a tweet that says in 2017, trump paid 750 in federal taxes but paid 15,598 in panama. 1 1 145,4000 in india and so much for America First. Stephanie, how does that complicate this picture . It means dont take our eye off the ball. As journalists and as the American People. We shouldnt let President Trump say this is how business operates, its complicated and move on. This is up to us right now. We have all of the ingredients here to say hold on a second, why is he paying out these other governments . He talks about America First but at the end of the day, even our government, our government has doubled the amount of Foreign Company contracts that we have in place than we did before President Trump was in office. What the white house is going to do and david will back me on this and we will hope and pray we move onto the next crazy headline. We cant. If we have real concerns and we should that will are National Security issues at risk, conflict of interest issues, we have to continue to focus on this and ask about it and dig deeper. These numbers do not add up. This is not just about hes a really big business guy or maybe hes not a successful as he said he was and laugh at that. There is nothing to laugh at here. This is about who does he owe and why and is he using the power of the oval office to hook somebody up . All right. Steph, appreciate you keeping us focused. Well take a quick break and have much more on the other side of the break. Break and have much more on the other side of the break they say carnivorous devourus inhabits these waters. If hes here, this devour white cheddar mac and cheese with bacon will lure him out. Ahhhhhhh eat like an animal. Devour. Eat like an animal. Start your day with secret. Secret stops sweat 3x more than ordinary antiperspirants. With secret, youre unstoppable. No sweat try it and love it or get your money back. Hello, everyone. Im alicia mendez. This is american voices. We have a bombshell report from the New York Times details how President Trump paid no taxes at all in ten of the past 15 years. Thats because rerepoported los more money than repaid. According to the report, trump paid 400 million less in combined federal income taxes than a very wealthy person. Thats despite the fact between 2004 and 2018, trump made nearly 430 million from selling his image alone. The times notes President Trump wrote off more than 70,000 to style his hair during the apprentice and another 100,000 for a hair stylists for his exwife. The president denied the report a short time ago. Fake news. Its totally fake news. Made up. Fake. We went through the same stories. You could have asked me the same question four years ago, i had to litigate this and talk about it. Totally fake news. No. Actually, i paid tax, and youll see that as soon as my tax returns its under order. They have been under order for a long time. The irs does not treat me well. Democrats are responding like Senate Minority leader chuck