Security council. As the New York Times reported at the time, quote, the elimination of the Cyber Security role is likely to increase concern of the Trump Administration shorthanded and unprepared to deal with increasing Cyber Security threats. Last night senator blumenthal said on this show the russian cyber attack made him both alarmed and scared. He could not fully elaborate because the information was classified but tonight we have a better understanding of why that might be. Politico reporting the Energy Department and National Nuclear security administration, which maintains the u. S. Nuclear weapon stockpile have evidence that hackers accessed their networks as part of an extensive espionage operation. The Energy Department since released a statement saying at this point, the investigation has found that the malware has been isolated to Business Networks only and has not impacted the mission of National Security functions of the department, including the National Nuclear security administration. Now, right now we dont know what the hackers did, if anything, inside the network of the agency that maintains our Nuclear Weapons. The idea that our Nuclear Weapons are not completely secure would be profoundly disturbing. In an oped for the New York Times, President Trumps former Homeland Security adviser tom bossert explained why the russians dont even need to do much to cause chaos. Quote, the actual and perceived control of so many Important Networks could easily be used to undermine public and Consumer Trust in data, written communications and services. The networks that the russians control, they have the power to destroy or alter data and impersonate legitimate people. Tensions could escalate quite easily, both hallmarks of russian behavior. This cyber attack was so pervasive, its not just the u. S. Government impacted. New york times reported microsoft has identified 40 companies that suspected Russian Hackers stole data from. Nearly half are private technology firms. Microsoft said, many of them Cyber Security firms like fireeye that are charged with securing vast sections of the public and private sector. Nicole perilroff covers Cyber Security for the New York Times. She has been covering this story through this developing Cyber Security crisis. Nicole, youve been reporting i know all day on this. Whats the sort of latest where we are on this . The latest is what microsoft said tonight. They came out tonight and said so far they have identified 40 victims. Whats interesting about victimology here is that like they said, nearly half are i. T. Companies, like solar winds, which we know was used as a conduit to get into some of these federal agencies. Fisa also came out saying they believe solar winds was not the only end road into these systems. Were looking at hack that is not just ongoing, its not just highly sophisticated but also we cannot trust the supply chain. We can no longer trust that any Third Party Application in these systems has not been compromised by russia. So far, microsoft said they identified 40 victims. They said its early days. They expect that number to rise. Already what we know is that the list of victims is highly concerning. As you mentioned, were looking at sections of the department of energy. We already reported at the times that Los Alamos National labs had been one of the agencies hit that oversees the nations Nuclear Weapons stockpile. Commerce, treasury, parts of the pentagon, but the list keeps getting greater, and we expect that actually the next couple of victims that will identify probably will likely be Major Technology companies. Theres a bunch of things to process here. One is this wasnt, if we say it was a hack of the u. S. Government, thats too specific. It appears to be a broad hack of all kinds of entities. Big private firms including Software Security firms, big private enterprises, fortune 500 companies, think tanks, the government. The thing that really struck me in that tom bossert oped was him just making a point that look, they were in there for eight months without anyone knowing. Thats a lot of time for a lot of very sophisticated operatives to put a bunch of different trap doors in that arent going to be found. Thats right. We know from fireeye they have already found several back doors they planted once they were inside. And i think its everyone says its still very early. They expect to find more back doors. Its going to be very hard for victims that are not technologically sophisticated to find all of them. They expect the investigation alone could take months, if not years. Theres going to be a very long tail to this. Now the only quibble i have with tom bosserts oped in the times last night, he made the point that it could be used for destruction of data, to shut down systems. If theres any Silver Lining to this and there really arent many, the group we think is behind this, the svr, they are more quiet prowlers than other units of the russian intelligence service. This is another group. This is the group that goes in and they are designed to steal data for traditional espionage but theyre doing it in such a way they are making us question the vulnerability of our entire supply chain which really makes this a hack of its own. One of the Strange Parts of the story is just theres been so much silence from officials in the federal government about this. Thats been changing over the few days. I want to read this section but get a sense from you about whats changed and how much it is. Federal officials issued warning on thursday who they believe they were working for the kremlin. Used a far wider variety of tools than previously known to penetrate Government Systems, said it was a grave risk to the federal government. Youre starting to get public language from the federal government that echoes the level of seriousness or reporting suggesting but it still seems like we havent had any kind of big address about this from anyone at the top levels. Thats right. Its a mess. Its a complete mess. Were caught completely flat footed about this thing. The president has yet to speak to it at all. Sisa, as you mentioned, put out that alert today. But they were noticeably quiet when this first came out beyond issuing an emergency directive for people to unplug the solar wind system that was compromised. Were hearing from microsoft today that the agencies are coming to microsoft to find out if other agencies are compromised. The private sector are leading the notification of federal agencies. Telling them they were compromised in this. That feels very backwards. We have been talking about information sharing. The government has asked for better information sharing but there is noticeable lack of flow coming from federal agencies right now. Really were just relying on most of these private sector reports. Incredible story unfolding before us. Youve been doing great reporting on this. Thank you for joining us tonight. Thanks for having me, chris. Good to be with you. Few people in the u. S. Know as much about russian intelligence capabilities as former cia director john brennan. Im glad to have him with me on the show now. Here is my question and its a question you may or may not be able to answer. It seems like the most important one. We know that the u. S. And russia and china and all kinds of different world powers have intelligence capables, surveillance capabilities. You see a story about a russian mole or intelligence asset was caught in the u. S. , we know that the u. S. Is doing that in russia as well as all sorts of countries are trying to spy on each other. Im having a hard time figuring out where in the spectrum this is in terms of routine or just really off the charts. Well, it appears this is the work of the russian svr. As nicole said, which is basically the rough equivalent of the cia. They are the Russian Group that collects intelligence against foreign targets and their primary foreign target is the u. S. Government and u. S. Hightech firms. This is very, very damaging breach of those systems and networks that if youre able penetrate them you have access to troves of information. Of great intelligence value to russia. This seems creative and unfortunately very successful attack given the scope, since it went after so many Government Departments and agencies as well as private firms. But as it was pointed out, the duration that they have been in those network, and then the ability to extract information, apparently out of it and defeat the einstein sensor system, which is designed to detect the extraction of information to different ip addresses that could in fact be those mechanisms that the russians used to get information out. As nicole said, this is intelligence collection activity but i wouldnt take great comfort in just thinking that the svr, which is traditionally intelligence Collection Agency will not be potentially used to deploy malware that could lie silent for a while that could have disabling and destructive capabilities that the russians could decide to activate at certain times. Now also i should point out, though, it does seem as though this is the Unclassified Networks that are very, very important and contain very sensitive information. But the very sensitive and Mission Critical networks are classified networks in the Intelligence Community and in the National Nuclear security agency. If theyre able to infect these Business Networks, and the cancer is metastasizing throughout the systems, there are things that could be done to disable all of those support systems that go into supporting critical missions. You know, responses back to sort of the framework of intelligence or counterintelligence. At a certain level, intelligence agencies will have ways in which they counter each other. Then intelligence crisis can rise to the level of dip diplomatic, Foreign Policy, and sometimes military issues. It seems theres some response that has to happen above just Cyber Defense in terms of how this is broached as a Foreign Policy matter. What do you think . Well, yeah. I think the first and foremost the u. S. Government needs to understand exactly what has happened and tried to then prevent further damage from taking place. It seems as though they are still uncovering the various places and networks where the russians apparently were able to access. That is the primary responsibility of the Cyber Security professionals and also in the hightech. As nicole pointed out, there are supply chain issues that are quiet complex and complicated that defy easy solutions. As far as dealing with russia, we can decide to sanction individuals within the svr who have been identified as behind this very, unfortunately, sft successful breach of our systems. We done that with chinese and others. Theres been breaches of Government Systems before. The very large breach of the opm systems and networks that gave china a treasure trove of information. This, again, a feature of this digital environment that rides on the worldwide web that very, very ingenious and creative cyber actors can exploit to access these networks and pull out information or, again, potentially disable and destruct networks that can have a very, very grave and damaging impact on our National Security. Theres sort of a striking symmetry. Obviously 2016 was a year there was a cyber attack on the u. S. Election. And that went beyond just extrax traction of information, right . It was actually used in a very explicit way to interfere in the election, to sabotage one campaign over the other. The president never acknowledging that, really. Making excuses for it. Back in 2017 he talked about how he and putin discussed forming a impenetrable Cyber Security unit. He said hacking and many other negative things will be guarded. Which i dont think happened. I want to play what senator mitt romney said today who issued a strong statement about the absence of any response from the administration. Take a listen. National security is extraordinarily vulnerable. In this setting not to have the white house aggressively speaking out and protesting and taking punitive action is really quite extraordinary. What do you think of that . Any other president would have made this his or her first, second and third priority at the first instance of being aware of the magnitude of this breach. But unfortunately we have donald trump, who cons to push out this theory of fraudulent election and ignoring a very, very serious and damaging attack, basically, against our systems that, again, have given apparently the russians free access to so much critically Important Information that we rely on for our National Security. So the Biden Administration is going to now have one more very, very messy issue that it needs to address from day one. The fact that donald trump does not address this, its not shocking or surprising at all but it is unconscionable. It is disgraceful, and it is something again putting the United States at greater risk visavis our adversaries. All right. John brennan, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Thanks, chris. Tonight were one step closer to a second coronavirus vaccine, but all this only works if people can get the vaccine, and they are willing to take it. Nbc reporter on the growing Vaccine Campaign targeting local media, after this. Our doctor about Treatment Options is key. Today, we are redefining how we do things. We find new ways of speaking, so youre never out of touch. Its seeing someones face that comforts us, no matter where. When those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care. The first steps of checking in, the smallest moments can end up being everything. Theres resources that can inform us, and that spark can make a difference. When we use it to improve things, then that change can last within us. When we understand whats possible, we wont settle for less. The best thing we can be is striving to be at our best. Managing Heart Failure starts now with understanding. Call today or go online to understandheartfailure. Com for a free Heart Failure handbook. My hands are everything to me. But i was diagnosed with dupuytrens contracture. And it got to the point where things i took for granted got tougher to do. Thought surgery was my only option. Turns out i was wrong. So when a hand specialist told me about nonsurgical treatments, it was a total game changer. Like you, my hands have a lot more to do. Learn more at factsonhand. Com today. The path is now clear for the second coronavirus vaccine. An Advisory Panel to the food and Drug Administration just hours ago voting 200, one abstention, to recommend and emergency use authorization be issued for the moderna vaccine. That comes on the heels of Pfizer Vaccines approval for emergency use just last week. Both vaccines use this incredible new rna technology. We should do a segment on that at some point. Both have shown high rates and 95 for pfizer. Thats all great news. And one of the key differences is that the moderna vaccine, the one that was approved today, does not have to be stored at those crazily ultra cold temperatures that require special idesed freezers like the pfizer one does. And that, of course, will make distribution significantly easier. Again, all of this is great news. The fda is expected to give its final approval to moderna tomorrow. And a la the pfizer vaccine, the doses will begin shipping out across the country immediately because we already have them ready and willing to go. The Development Time line is one and the success is one of the greatest scientific breakthroughs in recent memory. Its just absolutely must needed hope for all of us. A bright spot at the end of this extremely dark year. The thing is the vaccine by itself existing will not bring an end to the pandemic, right . Even this breakthrough cant save us from bad government or bad institutions. In the fight against the virus, were going to need everything working together. We have watched the Trump Administrations utter disregard for nine months and during their utter reckless disregard the scientist race to get us these vaccines in record time. They did their job. Now we need all parts of American Society from the media, social media to government to do their jobs to get us out of this. All the things that on our governing structure, right, that have not worked, all the parts of the response that have failed, the lack of coordination to federal government, local governments, all that needs to start working in order to actually get this vaccine into the arms of people and bring the pandemic to an end. Its obviously going be the number one challenge and promise of the Biden Administration when they take over in just 34 days. Then aside from logistics, the other main challenge we face is the massive amount of disinformation swirling around this paired with some skepticism that isnt grounded in some irrational fears. Brandy zadrozny reports local news stations have been giving antivaccini antivaccinis antivaccinists an outlet to spread misinformation. Activists are looking to local news outlets to amplify their message and give them chance to raise money through donations. Its tactic known as information laundering. Nbc reporter brandy zadrozny joins me now to break it all down for us. Tell me about what your reporting found about local News Coverage of these kinds of events. In a nutshell, that theyre being reported on far too often. The idea is that for a long time, social media as an antivaxxers best friend. They have been kicked out of Polite Society since the Jenny Mccarthy era, and they build audiences online. Just recently with covid, facebook, youtube and twitter have all sort of cracked down or begun to crack down. So what some antivaxxers are doing is sort of going back to whats old is new again and creating these events. Theyre very sparsely attended, because, again, most people dont agree with the antivaccine position. So its really small events theyre having. They hold signs at overpasses and hold signs in front of hospitals. Sometimes its three people. Then were seeing local news organizations go and cover this protest and frame it as concerned mothers are voicing their concerns about becoming the coming vaccine and let them sort of spew all this misinformation about the vaccines safety, about its efficacy, about its origins around thats the real sort of danger. I talked to an antivaxxer that is behind some of this, and he said oh, yes, thats exactly what we want. Thats exactly what were looking for. Its sort of perfect too because the outlet is covering the vaccine looking for local angles. Youre doing the sort of made for tv shot in the arm as some of your content. You can get some people to say im not going the take it, thats part of your content too. I think the question for me is like, how news outlets will responsibly report on all of this. We saw indication yesterday that one person who got it had an adverse reaction. There was a push notification on my phone. And there was a debate about should there be a push notification about that. You shouldnt protect people from information but at the same time you should put it in context . All of this will be very tricky terrain for every single outlet whether its social media, local news companies, this show, anyone else. 100 . Misinformation is not, we talk about it a lot in terms of social media, but it is not purely a social media game. Its incumbent upon every one whos job to do so slowly, deliberately so we think a lot about this in misinformation circles. How to present information in way thats timely, relevant and correct. And right for the audience to which youre presenting it. I talked to one media director and he said its not like were not in the business of ignoring things. Thats the point. You dont have to ignore the three yelling parents outside of a vaccine outside of a hospital thats giving vaccines. You dont have to do that but it is important that you stop and say what is this group really. Who is behind it . Where did you get these professionally made signs and where is the money going from all of this . Theres also the question of like, is three people outside a hospital a news story. Theres a kind of al chemical nature to what we do and dont call news in this business. Let me say. This is the big question for this year. We have watched the sort of right wing disinformation machine which is enormous and very powerful get behind the idea that the election was stolen and fraudulent despite the fact its a complete lie and pumped that into the minds of tens of millions people and its the same whether they do the same with the vaccine. My understanding is Tucker Carlson was starting to toy with that. If they decide to do that, then we will have a real problem on our hands. They already have done it. There was a great piece in the New York Times that today that showed exactly what our reporting has been showing for the last couple of months too. Its that those same people have pivoted from the election. They were preelection, all politics then they turned stop the steal and they are pivoting to covid to make us distrust or government, distrust our political leaders and our health leaders. Thats happening right now. The choice is ours as local media and National Media what do we point a camera on and the people i talk to made a real case for counter balance and we might need to look at some places we dont traditionally look in terms of go find parents who have been sitting at home for ten months and talk to them about how psyched they are about a vaccine, about how they have been really reading up and watching good information sources. It seems like maybe thats not a traditional story but i would watch that story as one of those parents. I think thats important to show and experts say thats exactly what we need now. A great point. Theres going be a lot of very disingenuous asking questions stuff from the usual quarters. Yes. The actual good faith undertaking of rigorous communication of the truth is a whole different story. Brandy zadrozny, thank you so much. Thanks, chris. Next, president elect joe biden will be sworn in 34 days from now. 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Ultimately, the decision taken by the obama Biden Administration was to, in their words, look forward not backwards and it made a certain amount of sense. They were in the midst of trying to dig the nation out from the worst crisis from the great recession, and they had transgent Republican Opposition led by Mitch Mcconnell, and i think they viewed it all as having a zero sum level of political capital. They spent it op that prosecutor torture. It couldnt be spent on things like rescuing the auto industry. Well, here we are again. Republican administration, Incoming Democratic administration and a similar question. In this case not torture and war crimes but what appears to be fairly rampant law breaking donald trump in office and maybe before. What to do now . What to learn from the past . In a new piece from the atlantic, James Fallows looks at how biden should investigate trump. And he joins me next. James, i love your piece because it is a complicated set of nuanced questions that i think you approached quite incisively and sensibly. Whats the sort of paradox or problem for the administration . As it takes office . The problem is an intensive version of what you set up with the choice that obama and joe biden faced in 2008 and 2009 where they had an economic emergency on their hands and had to deal with, and they also had the last eight years of economic and other mismanagement to deal with. Right now the problem that an incoming Biden Harris Administration will deal with is worse on both sides. They have more of a backlog to have some kind of reckoning with on the legacy of the trump years but they also have a bigger and worse emergency. They have a pandemic, crisis the economic collapse caused by the pandemic. They have crises with many of offer allies and adversaries. What is always a difficult choice for new administration is even more intense this year than before. Then youve got this added layer which to me is a really i really wrestle with in terms of where my own commitments are. On one level i think its really bad to have just cycles of impunity which no matter what they do, they just walk away. At the other, you dont love the idea of coming into a department of justice thats been badly corroded in many ways and tasking it with investigating your predecessor. How should we think about that . The main insight i was trying to get when i talked with people who are veterans of past administrations, and theyve been through transitions before is how to make the distinction between what should be done and what joe biden should do. Right. And there is a surprisingly valuable distinction between those. I think accountability legal, reputationally in the story of america, that is important. We all know in surveying the world history, the difference between societies that deal with their failings and those that the not. But a lot of these reckonings are better if the new president himself and the Vice President are not involved. I think its clearest of corruption offenses x people violating various financial laws. Something should be done about that. But it should mainly be done, number one, by state prosecutor, new york and elsewhere, and number two, by a reconstituted justice department, an attorney general and all of his or her team to whom whom a new president will saad minister justice, and do it want to hear about it until its in the papers. Yeah, this is a line i thought captured this really well. Trump will likely be consumed by civil litigation for the rest of his life that is his problem. It should not be joe bidens. Were starting to see some of that with division of labor. There seems to be a pretty obvious bread crumb trail of some pretty sketchy business that local prosecutors can look into, and that has nothing to do with a commission being sent up or executive order from the president. Right. And the best thing that President Trump new President Biden can do is let the state authorities proceed on their own initiative. Also to make sure that the federal authorities, the attorney general and the rest of the federal administrative machine, inspectors general have his assurance they are there to administer the law impartially. To deliver justice wherever it should be delivered, where there is Something Else a new president can do that gets much less attention that is much more within his control and can make more of a difference, or at least as great a difference in sort of changing the heritage of the last four years. Would you like to know what that is . Yes, please. This is what i call as distinguished from the corruption which is Law Enforcement authorities will deal with, theres the corrosion of federal government weve had in recent years where by either in attention or direction, a federal agencies have been hallowed out, politicized. Young people have been discouraged from joining. Mid career people have left. And i think that this is something where a new president and his team should get right on the job of restaffing and reconstituting these federal agencies. There are one thousand jobs that need to go through Mitch Mcconnell or whoever is in control of the senate. There are 3,000 more jobs that are political appointments that dont require a senate confirmation. And those are the ways i think people i spoke with said thats the main lever a new president has to change the texture and direction of government. Thats a really interesting point in terms of right. Theres accountability on one side, but there is actual the hiring in an administration you do. I want to get your final thought here about this sort of postnixon legacy and where we are in his pardon. The ford pardon represents this real break moment. The pardons offered by george h. W. Bush on his way out the door as overseen by william barr, where it has brought us now as we face this set of questions as biden is about to be sworn in. These are always difficult questions. I was around during that nixon era. I actually worked, as you know, for jimmy carter. Yep. And was part of the team that recommended jimmy carter thank gerald ford for the pardon he had given richard nixon, even though that cost ford politically, because at the time it seemed like a way to allow the country to move forward. As you suggest the pardon, the pardon pendulum swung in an unhealthy direction. And i think that the example that a new administration accepts in the way it talks about justice, the kinds of people it appoint, that is, again, there is nothing direct they can do. Its not a black or white decision, but just day by day by their comportment, i think they make a difference. Those words from carter and myself and the nation. I want to thank my predecessor for all he has done to heal our land. Great piece in the atlantic. Thank you for making the time tonight. Thank you, chris. Still ahead, the continuing fall out from the gutting of the u. S. Postal service. Congresswoman katie porter and the damage to Small Businesses and the gift giving in the time of covid, just ahead. St ahead every minute. Understanding how to talk to your doctor about Treatment Options is key. Today, we are redefining how we do things. We find new ways of speaking, so youre never out of touch. Its seeing someones face that comforts us, no matter where. When those around us know us, they can show us just how much they care. The first steps of checking in, the smallest moments can end up being everything. Theres resources that can inform us, and that spark can make a difference. When we use it to improve things, then that change can last within us. When we understand whats possible, we wont settle for less. The best thing we can be is striving to be at our best. Managing Heart Failure starts now with understanding. Call today or go online to understandheartfailure. Com for a free Heart Failure handbook. If you know anything about texas republican congressman dan crenshaw, you probably know hes a combat veteran who lost his right eye in afghanistan. You might sense he clearly views himself as a rising star in the republican party. This week the political world collectively cringed when crenshaw release admin any action movie starring himself when he parachutes into georgia to fight antiantifa activists on behalf of two senators with corruption issues. Whats the situation on the ground . We have two patriots down there. Senator loeffler and senator purdue. Great fighters. They just need a little backup. Who do you want to bring . Bring every one. Its loeffler, by the way. I messed it up myself. If thats all you know about dan crenshaw, it might surprise you to learn a number of veterans groups on calling on him to resign from congress due to revelations from the department of veteran Affairs Inspector report. You see, in september of last year, congressional staffer and Navy ReservistAndrea Goldstein went public with the claim she had been assaulted, at the v. A. Medical center, of all place, in washington by a man who slammed his body against hers and pressed himself against her in the centers cafe, saying, quote, she could use a good time. In response according to that inspector generals report, the secretary of Veterans Affairs himself, robert wilkie, the guy at the top then basically worked to drag her reputation through the mud and discredit her. And he did it, the report suggests, with the help of none other than congressman dan crenshaw who allegedly approached wilkie at a fundraiser and told him the accuser had filed frivolous complaints when the two were on active duty together. They both deny any wrong doing. Crenshaw says he never spoke negatively about goldstein but a number of v. A. Officials said wilkie had in fact indicated that crenshaw had supplied dirt on the accuser, and that notion is backed up by this email wilkie sent last december, quote, ask me in the morning what crenshaw said about the takano staffer whose glamour shot was in the new york tim times. What the report suggests is wilkie believed goldstein had to be discredited and crenshaw may have helped him to do it. This kind of thing may not hurt crenshaw as he seeks to climb the ladder of republican politics. When you come across add implicated in smearing a Sexual Harassment whistleblower to the list of things that come to mind. 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The Washington Post reporting, the Postal Service told congress that only 78. 9 of first class mail was delivered on time during the week of november 28th, well below its internal goal of 96 . The Chicago Tribune reported on private data showing delays have continued since then. Quote, the Postal Service delivered about 79 of packages on time during the week that ended december 3rd and just 60 during the week that ended december 10th. The post office this week put a statement acknowledging that 2020 is, quote, an extraordinary year of unprecedented challenges. Congresswoman katie porter democratic california grilled postmaster general dejoy back in august about changes to the post office, and she joins me now. Its going to have you, congresswoman. I dont understand whats going on there. I dont think i ever really understood this year that well, partly because they werent that forthcoming, but what is your understanding of whats going on there . Well, the mail is slow because theres an unprecedented volume of packages. Drivers and others are having to observe safety precautions. But, look, this pandemic has been going on since february. We knew this was coming as early as january or even late december. That should have been a time to make a historic investment in our postal system so that people who are subject to stayathome orders, people who are quarantining could count on being able to get things, whether its prescriptions, whether its deliveries of christmas presents. And that didnt happen. I mean it always seemed to me heres the thing that i never felt we got a definitive answer to. It is clear that louis dejoy came in and that he changed a lot of things, and those changes, they said, oh, we were just looking for efficiencies. Its also clear that it slowed the mail down and it did in a year when a lot of people were worried about mailin ballots. And thats the lens through which we viewed it. But it also seems like obviously theres cascades to those changes, which it just seems like havent worked. Like whatever theyre doing over there under dejoys management is not rising to the moment. Is that fair . Absolutely. I mean the mail was slowed down, and of course youre right to point to ballots. But even at that time when he made these changes, we pointed to the fact that people were going to be slower to get Social Security checks, that veterans were going to be slower to get their prescription medicine, which the v. A. Uses the Postal Service to deliver. And now as were coming into the Holiday Season, were continuing to have these slowdowns. So a couple of things are clear to me. One, mr. Dejoy made a bad choice. Whatever changes he made, he should unmake them. And, two, hes a terrible manager because he hasnt figured that out and done it. The structure of the post office is somewhat strange. Obviously it was a u. S. Government institution for many, many decades in the constitution. Its now this kind of quasi private entity with government oversight. Does dejoy get to stay, right . He has a fixed term no matter what . Dejoy gets to stay. There is a postal board of governors, and they can vote to remove him. Im hopeful that mr. Dejoy will take a clue here and understand that the American People dont want him, that hes failing at this job, that hes not competent for it, and that hell step down and well be able to put someone in his place who is really committed not to destroying the post office for his personal profits, but instead to investing in this important civic institution. So i think he has the ability to stay, but i certainly want to be the first to tell him, i hope you go. Youre coming to me obviously from Southern California, which is where you are a member of congress, your district there in irvine. Things are really bad in california and Southern California with respect to covid right now. Im seeing headlines about icu capacity. Its also my understanding that you just very recently lost your grandmother to this, so i just wanted to offer my condolences and ask you to tell us a little bit about her. Well, thank you, chris. My grandmother passed away on sunday morning. She was 94 years old. She died of covidrelated complications. She contracted covid, as so many have, in the Senior Living facility. We were able to we made a huge batch of her amazing meatballs and had a wonderful, you know, meal, my kids and me trying to remember and celebrate her. But like so many families, were having to make adjustments. Were having to cope with grief all while trying to keep ourselves safe. So i know this is really a difficult time for so Many Americans around the country. Yeah. What is your sense about how the trajectory right now where you are really does look pretty bad, and theres this like you know terrible. Theres competing feelings of hope about the vaccine and this fatigue i think people have about, you know, not seeing family, particularly around the Holiday Season where its very, very hard. What are you hearing from constituents, and what are you telling them . Look, in california, its never been more dangerous from covid19 than it is today, except that it will probably be even more risky and dangerous tomorrow. So i would just emphasize to everybody were grateful that the vaccine is here. Some of my first constituents received the vaccine today, which was a wonderful and hopeful thing, and i appreciate them being very public about the importance of the vaccine and being willing to answer questions about it. But i just want to emphasize in all the Political Drama about wearing a mask and gatherings, i just want to emphasize to people stay home. It is the single most important thing you can do right now. Are you hopeful final question that were going to get some kind of deal and some kind of relief, which is going to be, i think, insufficient to the need but better than nothing before congress leaves for the holidays . Yeah. Were continuing to negotiate. I do think well get to a deal, but i want to be clear. Were not in a situation where what were giving people is stimulus. Were not in a situation where what were doing is fixing things. Were in serious damage control mode. Any direct payments and i think there should be direct payments included in this package i think are going to be awfully small to meet the severe need of people. We have lines for hours long here right in Orange County both for getting covid tests and for getting food, and those things are not unrelated. All right. Congresswoman katie porter. Its always great to talk to you. Again, my condolences on the loss of your grandmother. Thank you. All right. That is all in for this thursday night. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Chris hayes, i would like you to conjure from the depths of your policy and personnel understanding, which i know is epic i want you to conjure the ninja slash genius who should be put in charge of the Postal Service in the Biden Administration to fix all the things you were just talking about with katie porter there and what louis dejoy has left in his wake. Its going to have to be somebody amazing. Yeah, that is true. Thats a fun fantasy draft exercise to figure out if you can put any one person in charge of this incredibly important, you know, well nigh sacred in a civic sense institution, who would it be . Im going to noodle on that. Thats exactly right. You get bonus points if you figure out who it should be, not just for bringing it back to its former glory but also for adding Postal Service banking to the list of things that happen at the Postal Service. If you can come up with that, you win a free tv show. All right, my friend. Im on it. A free tv show. All right. Thank you, my friend. All right im on it. All right, well done. Nobody better, if anybody can come up with that, it is chris hayes. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Really happy to have you here this thursday night. For the first time ever, which is almost unbelievable, but its true for the first time ever, a native american is going to be a cabinet secretary in the United States. Deb hollands mother was a navy veteran, native american woman, citizen of the laguna pueblo. Her father was a norwegian american and an activeduty marine. Deb holland went to 13 different Public Schools before graduating from high school. She put herself through college. She put herself through law school. She went on to become the head