Restrictions . As the virus rages on, why Donald Trumps covid whisperer is under fire like never before. What the hell is the matter with these guys . What is the matter with them . And some more good news on the vaccine front. Laurie garrett tells us what it means forgetting back to normal. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Happy monday. Im chris hayes. We have breaking news tonight that shows just how deep the rot in the Republican Party goes, but before getting to that, we will in just a moment, take a step back just to sort of survey the last few weeks since the election, right . The most charitable thing someone could say about the bulk of the institutional Republican Party at the National Level in the wake of the election that donald trump lost is that theyre just kind of ignoring and pretending that donald trump is not having a total meltdown and attempting to torch american democracy. The nicest thing that can be said about the Mitch Mcconnells of the world, for instance, is theyre just letting him have his tantrum and hoping it will all go away. Thats the very best, most charitable thing you can say. We have evidence tonight that is not what is happening, they are actually collaborating with donald trump in attempting to overthrow the results of a free and Fair Election because todays georgias republican secretary of state Brad Raffensperger said hes come under pressure from senator Lindsey Graham to throw away legal ballots. Graham asked whether raffensperger had the power to toss all mail ballots in counties found to have higher rates of nonmatching signatures. Raffensperger said he was stunned that graham appeared to suggest that he find a way to toss legally cast ballots. Absent court intervention, raffensperger doesnt have the power to do what graham suggested, as counties administer elections in georgia. It sure looked like he was wanting to go down that road, he said. The republican secretary of state in georgia says that South Carolina senator lindsay graham, the chair of the senate judiciary, pressured him to dump legally cast ballots in a state where donald trump is losing by a relatively narrow margin. Graham told the wall street journal reporter tonight, quote, thats ridiculous. What im trying to find out is how do you verify signatures from mail in ballots in these states . I thought it was a good conversation. Im surprised to hear him characterize it that way. Okay. But what on earth was a senator from the South Carolina and the chair doing talking to a state election official in georgia amidst a president ial recount . Mark elias, the lawyer fighting against this responded to the story saying, this is both outrageous and should be investigated by the Senate Ethics committee. As youll remember on election night, it did look like President Trump was winning in georgia, though the New York Times needle predicted otherwise late in the night. As votes came in from democratic counties around atlanta, that lead slipped away. As it stands now nbc news has called the state for president elect biden by 14,000 votes and the states two incumbent senators are headed to a Runoff Election on january 5th. The secretary of state raffensperger has announced a risklimiting ought daudit whic trigger a statewide recount. 14,000 votes may not seem like a lot but it is a lot in terms of recounts. It is very unlikely the recount will change anything. Here is what secretary of state raffensperger said today before speaking to the Washington Post. When people are out there making bold faced lies, you have to call it out with facts, so were basically fact bombing them with the truth. The Lieutenant Governor of your state said there have been no examples of systemic fraud or improprieties and that it certainly appears that joe biden is the president elect. Do you agree with him . Thats when he takes a deep breath to say the obvious truth that we all know. The general complaint from donald trump and his allies seems to be, how dare you not fix this election in our favor, fellow republican . Rather than accept the very plain results of the president ial election, the Republican Party has resorted to eating their own and now just like flirting with outright criminal behavior, lawless yanking away election result. One thing thats become more and more clear in the two weeks since election day, this isnt an indulging trump thing. Theres something deeply depraved here. Republican party is willing to do just about anything nord to maintain power, and we are just seeing how wildly dangerous it is when the president is creating political conditions for the entire Republican Party to join him in essentially seeking to overthrow or ignore the results in a democratic election, and they dont have any problem with that. With me now, the reporter that broke the story that Lindsey Graham pressured him, amy gardner. Great scoop, great reporting, all on the record interview with a keogh figuresal. Excellent journalism. Whats the context of this conversation . I think the context of a conversation is a real growing mountain of frustration on the part of secretary raffensperger about these baseless accusations and sort of pressure that hes been under since election day really to kind of get in line and talk about the poe continuingal that fraud actually is the only reason that joe biden could have won georgia, and raffensperger didnt want to do that. Hes been trying to keep his head down and trying to support the local Election Officials who are the ones with the power to count the vote, canvass the reports, certify them county by county by county. I think it took a turn for the personal for Brad Raffensperger in a couple of ways. First of all, he has been called, you know, a rino, republican in name only, a congressman from georgia has said that hes capitulated to the democrats by not talking about fraud, and then his wife and he both received Death Threats over text messaging in the past several days. And i think he really hit a breaking point where he want going to stay quiet anymore. The republican congressman doug collins who has sort of unsuccessfully ran in that Senate Runoff for Kelly Loefflers seat has been appointed as the Trump Campaign field general down in florida. You know, hes been going after raffensperger. Theyre all republicans in the state of georgia. They all know each other. Raffensperger said that collins is leading the president s effort in georgia. Called him a liar and a scha charloton. This is not a never trumper, not a liberal. This is a guy who saw his view and he has taken aback by what his duty has brought upon him. That is right. I think he thinks the republicans arent being very smart here. The argument for all of this wrath coming down on his head and also just sort of the rhetoric that impugns the Election Officials arguably is to help Kelly Loeffler and david perdue who have the Runoff Election on january 5th because Everybody Knows donald trump is still talking about fraud even though theres been no evidence to suggest that any one of these close states that decided the outcome had any widespread fraud on a measurable level. So the fear is that donald trump is going to tweet something. Hes going to tweet displeasure at senator loeffler and purdue. Some of the other republicans who see this election being administered fairly, legally, ethically, i think their view is thats not smart politically, that sort of, you know, casting doubt on the election is a distraction that does the opposite of unify the Republican Party at a time they need to get all of their voters out again just in a few short weeks and one of the biggest accusations of alleged fraud going on in georgia is the manufacturer of the Voting Machines of dominion voting systems is like leftist venezuela link spiritorial company that stole votes from donald trump in georgia. That is causing republicans to say, hm, i dont know if i want to use these machines on january 5th. Everyone is saying these machines are terrible. It doesnt seem very smart for the republicans either. Amy gardner whos a reporter from the Washington Post who broke that story and that interview with Brad Raffensperger, thank you so much for making time for us tonight. I want to bring in david jolly who quit the Republican Party in the first year of his term. David, let me start with you on Lindsey Graham. Whoa, dude. Yeah. I mean, you can you can try to say, well, i was just talking about the mailin ballots but calling up a secretary of state in a state thats actively involved in a recount in which the president is driving home this toxic nonsense about fraud and floating the idea of can you throw out a bunch of illegal ballots . That is bad, bad, bad news. Yeah, chris. Kind of affirms my decision to leave the Republican Party, i suppose in many ways, because this is the behavior of todays modern gop. Look, whether or not a crime was committed in georgia, and certainly there could be by who knows whom among the Republican Party, but whether or not a crime was committed, what we do know is the likes of doug mcconnell, Lindsey Graham, theyre defrauding the American People and breaking the back of our republic one malevolent act at a time. What i would say to Lindsey Graham, mitch mcconnell, Kevin Mccarthy and others. You are the reason, not donald trump, you are the reason that 20 to 30 of the American Public will forever question the legitimacy of the 2020 election. You are the reason. Where senate and congressional leaders of eras gone by the lions of the senate would have led the nation towards truth and would have checked this president with his lies, you have followed him. You have followed this charlatan and you are the reason that now a broad section of the American People question our own democracy and our own elections. That is a hard legacy. Donald trump will come and go. Every one of these politicians on capitol hill will go. They dont give an ounce of dirt about donald trump. They will be going to joe biden for their white house access, parties, they will find their own political benefit and new relationships when hes gone, but what is tough is they will have shared and affirmed with the American People reasons to question this ee lkts alection awful. How do you say to a person thats fighting for the country, how do you explain that . They dont. Thats their legacy, not Donald Trumps. Bonita, weve all struggled to characterize what weve seen unfold over the last two weeks. Theres a spanish term which is a self coup when you stay in power even though people have voted you out. I think theres been a desire not to bolster the preposterous claims of the president or cede him authority. Will he go or wont he . He will go, he lost. But the graham disclosure is really unnerving about what it says what they are willing to do, what lines theyre willing to walk up to and step over. Like if this had come down to one state, if it had been 5,000 votes in one state, like they all look like theyre kind of down to clown. Yeah. I think what is really distressing about todays disclosure is the degree to which leaders, Republican Leaders are going up behind questioning Election Officials judgment, Election Officials who you said raffensperger, no liberal, hes receiving Death Threats. He is, you know, having his own integrity and the integrity of the elections questioned in georgia, and these Republican Leaders are going up questioning the way he is conducting and administering the elections the way georgia local election figures are, and to me the greatest harm here is for georgia voters. These kinds of comment undermine voter faith. They make people question whether we have legitimate elections at a time where the voters very clearly decided in a not that ambiguous vote tally around the country that joe biden would be president of the United States. So the attack on dominion voting services, i ultimately believe that this is going to come back and haunt Georgia Republicans in the runoffs ironically here. You have two elections coming up in georgia on january 5th. To be questioning and trying to undermine the democratic process and Election Officials in georgia for running an election where theres absolutely no evidence that anything went wrong. In fact, the opposite. To me this is ultimately going to potentially undermine Georgia Republican voters as amy gardner said, and that will be the greatest irony of all. It strikes me, there is a danger, theyre putting political professor on public officials. Kudos to Brad Raffensperger for having some integrity here and not bowing to it. The president is soliciting a primary challenge to mike dewine. Every republican in the country knows the score. If youre some election official, now you get pressured unless you fix the election for the republicans. Yeah, look, chris, Donald Trumps corruption has been contagious among people we thought would perhaps be immune from it. Yes. Thats what we cant reck reconci reconcile. You have to call it what it is, election fraud. This is a party that has lost seven of the last eight elections we know that. Theyre going to engage in rigging the election as best they can. This conversation, chris, this is the worst case scenario. We get wrapped up in the partisan allegiances. We get wrapped up in the binary fights. Whether or not donald trump will leave the oval office, he will become a tenant. The worst possible scenario, what our body poll particular is not prepared for, is the doubt that can be created within 20 to 30 of our public to question the legitimacy of our election. The damning part is that this is happening with the bully pulpit and the enablers that wear republican jerseys. There is no excuse for it, it is dangerous. It will break us and there is no fix for it. 20, 30 is on tow miss stick. Thank you both. Thank you. Tonight as the pandemic spreads just unchecked across the country, we are hearing utterly horrifying accounts of what that looks like on front line workers. The man in charge of the front line response is out there spreading information that will almost certainly endanger more american lives. More on that next. More on that. For the future, without sacrificing whats most important to you today. Because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction youre moving is forward. Here . Nah. Introducing the all new chevy trailblazer. Here . Nope. Here. When the middle of nowhere, is somewhere. The all new chevy trailblazer. Making lifes journey, just better. Im a peer educator,. A fitness buff,. And a champion for my own health. I talked with my doctor. And switched to. Fewer medicines with. Dovato. 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Inmates from the county detention facility dressed in prison stripes, ppe being paid just 2 an hour now process the unrelenting crush of dead bodies. One nurse at a strained el Paso Hospital saying the sickest covid19 patients are put in a doctorless room called the pit where they are given Three Chances to be revived before workers have to let them die. My first day of orientation i was told that whatever patients go into the pit, they only come out in the body bag. I have been doing covid assignments since april. So this was my fifth covid assignment and, yall, i have never experienced and have no words for what i just experienced in el paso, texas. This womans been fighting the pandemic for nine months. She took five assignments. She was in new york. She spent her whole life the last nine months fighting this, and look. Thats what the breaking point looks like. El paso has been trying to do something less horrible. October 29th their local county judge, the top elected official in el paso who we have had on this show ordered a strict twoweek shutdown of all nonessential businesses in defiance of the Texas Attorney general and the governor. There was some evidence it was working. They were reversing the spike. The incidence is coming down on this chart but the state sued to reverse the shutdown order. The Appeals Court ruled against them even as the bodies continued to fill the mobile morgues. Look, no one, no one wants to tell people they cant go out, put businesses out of business or prevent americans from going about their normal lives, but at some point you reach a breaking point. Thats where we are now. We are breaking. We are at the breaking point. There are too many cases for hospitals to handle. In north and south dakota one doctor said things are as bad as it gets anywhere in the world but many hospitals in largely rural north dakota capacity last week. Keep in mind, theres 12 more days of cases coming from them. The State Hospital system approaching meltdown, north dakotas republican governor reversed course and issued a mask mandate and other restrictions friday night. Other governors are trying to do something about this devastating spike as well. Michigan, which again was very hard hit earlier this year, democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer is barring Indoor Dining as well as in Person Instruction at high schools and colleges and ordering the temporary closure of some businesses including movie theaters and casinos. Again, high risk locales. This is not a shelter in place order. Shes keeping elementary and middle schools open, many businesses, even gyms are still allowed to operate. What you see whitmer doing is what policy makers across the country are doing, trying to balance all of the competing interests while also not seeing her state decimated by the virus. Then what happens . Along comes this guy, covids best ally in the white house, besides the president , scott atlas. A right wing radiologist with zero Public Health expertise who got in front of the television by going on trump tv and then got hired and managed to take over essentially the nations entire covid strategy and push the entire country towards an approach in which the virus would be left to burn through the populus. When there are high risk people we must protect them but we dont lock down the schools and we do not the goal of policy is absolutely not to stop all spread of covid19 to asymptomatic or very low risk individuals. Thats what he said. Youve got to protect the high risk people, right . But were not trying to stop the spread. Let it spread in order to protect the high risk people. Guess whats happening to the high risk people . Who do you think is in the high risk hospitals and Long Term Care facilities. Who do you think constitutes the dead, scott atlas . This guy is more responsible for the record case in the spike in deaths than any other policy maker in america. Washington post stating scott atlass rabblerousing will lead to illness and death, he should be fired. Then when a governor who isnt some right wing think tank flunky, who has people she is responsible for, the health and safety of, when she tries to take some steps to slow the spread like Governor Gretchen Whitmer is, the only way this stops is if people rise up. You get what you accept. Freedom matters riceup. Perhaps youll recall that Governor Whitmer was part of a terror plot to kidnap her and execute her. He claimed he was never talking about violence. Wanted people to vote in protest which everyone voted two weeks ago. The protests at Michigan State capitol were pretty scary and attended by some of the people who plotted to kidnap and kill whitmer. Even putting all of that aside, atlas is actively rooting on the virus trying to extract a political penalty for people who are doing the best they can under abominable circumstances. Can you clarify your response asking people to rise up . The white house told states to handle a covid response. Why are you contradicting the governor particularly when you dont have any training in Infectious Disease . This nation is suffering in the absence of a pandemic. Malignant leadership. Its now suffering in the federal testing strategy and federal rescue dollars. Its at the mercy of a virus that scott atlas and donald trump are promoting. We want the virus to spread. We want this. This is how the president elect responded. The idea that the president s now existing remaining advisor on covid is saying they should resist. What the hells the matter with these guys . What is the matter with them, resist . You know, every major individual of any consequence in the health field is saying, we can save we can save 100,000 lives just between now and january 21st by wearing these masks. That man, president elect joe biden, does not become president for 65 more days. Until then, state and local officials are on their own as they face the darkest winter of their lives. In oregon kate brown is facing a backlash for a statewide freeze. Ill talk to Governor Brown and the political battle right after this. Ttle right after this were all finding ways to keep moving. And at fidelity, youll get planning and advice to help you prepare for the future, without sacrificing whats most important to you today. Because with fidelity, you can feel confident that the only direction youre moving is forward. On friday an effort to flatten the covid curve kate brown announced a statewide two week freeze which will limit restaurants and bars to takeout only, close gyms, indoor and recreational facilities during that period. Also included a limit on social gatherings to no more than 6 people with a fine or arrest for violating the order. In response white hughes press secretary attacked brown as a, quote, radical leftist adding this is absurd leftist control not the american way. Governor kate brown of oregon joins me now. Governor, can you talk us through how you thought through the competing imperatives in policy making at this very point. Absolutely. Hospitalizations are rising sharply in oregon. Our hospitals are being stretched to capacity. Some in the metropolitan portland area have begun to stop surgeries to preserve beds and staff capacity. Our nurses and our doctors and our physicians assistants are working day and night for the last nine months. Theyre exhausted. Theyre stretched to the edge of their capacity as well. And case counts have more than doubled toppling more than 1100 per day. So okay. So this is action i mean, one thing thats been the sort of north star for policy makers is save the Hospital System from melting down. That was the imperative in the beginning of this pandemic, but its more complicated now, right . Theres a lot of fatigue among the populus in being told they cant do things. People got used to loosened restrictions over the summer and also theres no federal i mean, back in april it looked like there was going to be some federal rescue package, right . Money was going to come down for businesses. Theres nothing now so if you close down bars and they go out of business like peace. Tough. Thats exactly right. What is really, really clear is that the Trump Administration has left the states on their own to deal with this pandemic. Our governors are truly on the front lines. Were looking for every dollar that we can to help keep families together, to help them stay in their rental apartment or their house. Were working every single day to figure out how we ensure that our Small Businesses can make it through this pandemic and then on top of it all you have dr. Atlas criticizing the wrork of one of our governors. Its absolutely outrageous and absolutely unacceptable. So my goal is to protect health and the safety of oregonians. Were in the business of saving lives and i am absolutely focused on it. It is so imperative that our federal Administration Come forward with a second tranche of Coronavirus Relief funding. Our businesses are desperate. Our people need the resources. This is extremely challenging, and we need help from our federal government. We need it now. Has your office been in touch with anyone from the president elects Transition Team . Is there channels of communication happening there . Well, my former chief of staff is currently working on the Transition Team so we do have a connection, and nick bloser knows firsthand the challenges that states have been facing through this pandemic because he has led my response here on the ground. He knows the challenges around personal protective equipment, around testing and around lack of resources and, frankly, he understands very well the Trump Administrations failure to lead a National Response to this covid19 pandemic. Heres the challenge though, chris, and that is you have a Trump Administration whos failing to turn the baton over to the Biden Harris Administration. That is going to cost lives. If you watch a relay race you know if you havent practiced the handoff, you end up losing the race. Well, in this case were talking about we risk of losing thousands if not hundreds of thousands of more lives for their failure, the Trump Administrations failure to bring in the Biden Harris Administration and make sure they have the information they need to protect the people of the United States of america. Final question for you. I think youve done a really admirable job at managing this pandemic from the beginning, and its been hard and it hit the northwest early and i think both you and governor inslee reacted quite aggressively. Whats your message to the residents youre seeing who are just like, im so done with this. I dont want to keep doing this. What are you saying to them . Look, i know this is really, really hard. Im used to a thanksgiving filled with family and friends and eating really good food, and im not going to be able to do that this year, but its more important to me to save lives. My motherinlaw, other members of my family that are vulnerable and have Underlying Health conditions, we do not want to put these people at risk so im asking oregonians to make additional sacrifices on top of the sacrifices they made all year. Limit your gathering to your household only, up to six people. Two households if you must, but keep it at six people. Keep it small. Dont accidentally kill someone. Dont accidentally kill someone. Thats a striking phrase for this era. Governor kate brown, thank you so much. Take good care. Be safe. Going to try. All right. Are we close to a vaccine . Latest reports that even as dr. Fauci spreading some optimism. Are you ready for some optimism, viewers . After this. After this with this seal, this restaurant is committing to higher levels of cleanliness. The expertise that helps keep hospitals clean, is helping keep businesses clean too. Look for the ecolab science certified seal. The data are striking, savannah, theyre really quite impressive. 94. 5 efficacy. Now we have two vaccines that are really quite effective so i think this is a really strong step forward to where we want to be about getting control of this outbreak. We want to get it approved as quickly as we possibly can. We want to get doses to people starting in december. Dr. Anthony fauci showing some real optimism about the second announcement of a vaccine that looks really promising. My next guest has been tracking this from the beginning. Won a pulitzer prize, author of the coming plague and betrayal of trust lori garrett. Whats your reaction to todays announcement from moderna, the Second Company to release Clinical Data suggesting that their vaccine is in fact effective. Well, of course its good news. Of course were seeing something that defies all predictions of ten months ago. Unimaginable speed but we also have to consider the caveats. All we have to work with. All we have is socalled data, two press releases, one released last week by pfizer and one released today by moderna. And of course these press releases are carefully massaged by legal departments in both pharmaceutical companies so they present, you know, the best case with all the right caveats and words of caution and hedging. And until we see real data thats actually been scrutinized by outside independent scientists and shown to be valid, we have to be careful about getting too carried away here. Okay what chris, what makes this moderna one much more interesting than last weeks Pfizer Vaccine is a trick that the moderna folks pulled that makes it a more stable vaccine. Chris, you probably remember that the Pfizer Vaccine is so unstable that it has to be stored at minus 100 degrees fahrenheit yes. Or even colder . And it cant it will fall apart at Room Temperature completely. So that had the specter that every Single Health department in america would have to are you out and buy these ultra ultra freezers and have the portable ones that would cost thousands of dollars just to transport the darn vaccine around. Well, this moderna one uses a clever trick to come up with a more stable form of the mrna vaccine so that it can actually even sit for about ten hours at Room Temperature, according to the company, without falling apart. It never has to be kept any colder than a deep freezer that you might have in your garage. So the trick is that the mrna, the genetic little strip of genetic material that comes that mimics what it takes to make the spike protein, the virus is this round ball, youve seen it, with all the little spikes sticking out. So it makes this little piece of mrna, codes for those spike proteins that stick up, right . Well, they packaged it inside of basically a little ball of fat, a microscopic ball of fat called a liposome. Then the liposome gets injected into you, goes inside of your cells and turns your cells into factories making these proteins which then the body, the immune system sees, whoa, i dont know what this is, lets make antibodies and attack it. Right. Right . It turns out both Companies Used li liposomes as a way to hide the mrna. Whatever moderna did, their liposome is super strong, top secret and proprietary but it can withstand a far greater temperature range without falling apart. And they claim 5 better efficacy compared to the pfizer product. Two things. One is the data. I dont think i realized these were just press releases. I thought they had actually shown some data. So were waiting to get they will at a certain point show data, right . Someone has to look at it other than the company . Theyll have to. Yeah. Chris, here comes the tricky part. Whos going to assess that da it . Its going to be the trump appointees in the fda, and theyre going to make decisions based on a lot of pressure coming from the white house. I mean, the president s already tweeted that this is his legacy, so you can imagine the kind of pressure coming down on steve hahn, the commissioner of fda, and his scientific staff to cram these babies through as fast as possible. Theyll see raw data, theyll see whatever the Companies Hand over to them and theyll make some set of judgments about what should be used, how it should be used, then theyll pass that along to the cdc. It will be the cdcs responsibility to figure out how these can be widely used across america, and what each state needs to do, each municipality in order to vaccinate. The tricky part on all of this is that all these decisions are going to be made by a lame duck fda and a lame duck cdc and then handed off to joe biden and his administration with so far no access on the part of the biden people to the process. And thats just craziness. That is craziness. Thats right now it seems the highest stakes problem with this continued temper tantrum by the president slash attack on the election is that thing. They have to get in the room and have conversations so we can hand this off. Laurie garrett, thank you for explaining that. I feel like i have a better understanding. You bet, chris. 65 days, thats how long until President Trump has to move out, president elect biden moves in. The lexus december tor sales event. Lease the 2021 rx 350 for 419 a month for 36 months and well make your first months payment. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. And well make your first months payment. To use your vision benefits before the years up. This is us making sure you dont. Use em before you lose em, backed by our 100day guarantee visionworks. See the difference. And ask your doctor about biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in certain adults. 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But when i started seeing things, i didnt know what was happening. So i kept it in. He started believing things that werent true. I knew something was wrong. But i didnt say a word. During the course of their disease around 50 of people with parkinsons may experience hallucinations or delusions. But now, doctors are prescribing nuplazid. The only fda approved medicine. Proven to significantly reduce hallucinations and delusions related to parkinsons. Dont take nuplazid if you are allergic to its ingredients. Nuplazid can increase the risk of death in elderly people with dementiarelated psychosis and is not for treating symptoms unrelated to parkinsons disease. Nuplazid can cause changes in heart rhythm and should not be taken if you have certain abnormal heart rhythms or take other drugs that are known to cause changes in heart rhythm. Tell your doctor about any changes in medicines youre taking. The most common side effects are swelling of the arms and legs and confusion. We spoke up and it made all the difference. Ask your parkinsons specialist about nuplazid. As i said earlier, and i probably shouldnt repeat it, but i find this more embarrassing for the country than debilitating for my ability to get started. President elect joe biden talking about the president s refusal to acknowledge his victory. Now, biden will take office in 65 days, and for the second time in 12 years, a Democratic Administration will have to take Office Amidst a country in generational catastrophe as ushered in by the previous republican administration. Biden was there in 2009 when barack obama was sworn in as president , him as Vice President , and they had to take over an economy that was careening towards further disaster, and he will have to do it again in 2021. John podesta is someone who knows what this is like. Hes the former cochair of the obama biden Transition Team as well as the founder of the liberal think tank center for american progress. John, everyones got their work cut out for them for the second time in as many transitions. Right. Well, the big difference between that transition and this one is at least that president bush recognized were in two wars, we had a financial crisis ongoing, and he ordered his team, starting with his chief of staff josh bolten, including hank paulson, the secretary treasury, to give as much support as possible to the incoming team to try to preserve decisions that president obama would want to make in his first days in office. And i think the transition in that sense was rather seamless because we had access to agencies. We had access to technology, and as your last segment noted, most important we had access to information about how to plan. We knew we were hemorrhaging jobs. There were 500,000 jobs a month being lost, but at least we had insight into what was going on in those federal agencies, and thats whats being denied to joe biden and Kamala Harris right now. You know, theres another complicating factor here. Barack obama won he had House Majority and ultimately 60 senators. He took office with both houses of congress behind democrats, and still it was very hard to pass his agenda. And, you know, those fights were legendary. Joe biden may, may have narrow control of the u. S. Senate, but even so, it would be a 50 50 senate. How are people inside that world thinking through these eventualities and what it means to not have those kinds of congressional majorities barack obama had . Well, look, you have to plan for both contingencies. Obviously theyre hoping, i think, that those two georgia Runoff Elections go the democratic way and that they have at least a working majority, a 50 50 senate with Chuck Schumer able to assume the leadership position as majority leader. But if they dont have that, they have to plan for that contingency as well. The first matter the first order of priority is getting the virus under control. They have to be working with state and local authorities. They have to have a plan to distribute the vaccine. We have promising results from both pfizer and moderna. But they need to get in and create that plan. Theyve appointed a kind of blue ribbon Public Health team. But, again, without access to the fda, the cdc, the department of defense, which has responsibility for distribution some of the responsibility for distribution, its going to be exceedingly difficult to hit the ground running. So trumps refusal to accept reality has dire consequences to the countrys health and to the health of the economy. You know, how do you think about staffing this administration under these conditions ]. And heres my question for you. I think there is the ranks of democratic staffers tend to be real institutionalists. They really worry about things like norms and traditions. Theres a lot of lawyers who are very legally cautious, as is their you know, thats good that theyre prudent. Right. But it strikes me under these conditions, youre going to need some people that are pretty aggressive. You need people who think outside the box. Youre going to need some people staffing that administration who are not there to say no to every harebrained idea but to figure out how things can be delivered to the American People, overcoming obstruction. What do you think of that idea . I think the president has a lot of authority. He has the bully pulpit. He had convene people as he did today, bring, executives and labor together mp h. He has a very ambitious agenda to get the economy rolling again. Some of that is probably hell be able to get some of that done with Congress Even if mcconnell still is the leader in the Senate Although i think that will be difficult. But he still has to make progress on the things hes promised the American People from investing in child care and letting people be able to get back to work even as they have these challenges with their families around covid. He has to they have to invest in the Clean Energy Future that he promised. Yep. To tackle the problem with climate change. They have to invest in ensuring that we achieve better Racial Justice and equity in the building and Building Back better that economy. So hes going to have to use every tool thats available to him exclusive, legislative where he can, and, again, the convening power of the president is immense, and hell have to be pulling all those levers and having a white house that understands how to do that. I think his chief of staff, ron klain, is really a master of that, so i think theyre off, at least in that sense, to building a team that understands that. Yeah, my humble suggestion is that every staffer going in gets a tattoo that says deficits dont matter. Its just like the price of entry. Just go in there. Do whatever youve got to do. Deficits dont matter. This economy leads a lot of support. Get a face tattoo if youre particularly saucy. Chasing the republicans around for a deal. Cant do it. Absolutely right. John podesta, thank you so much for making your Time Available to us. That is all in. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now with ali velshi in for rachel. Good evening. Good evening, chris. Thanks to you at home for joining us at home this hour. Rachel is still quarantining after a close contact tested positive for covid19 but she is doing fine and will be back as soon as possible. We have a lot to get to on this monday. But first i want you to go back a couple of years with me just for a moment. Lets go back to march of 2018. There was this super weird moment, and it involved Donald Trumps legal representation. The president had already had a heck of a hard time securing legal representation for the mueller investigation. At least a dozen