Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20201022

Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Weve got a lot to get to tonight. First, breaking news and i am a bit flummoxed about the content of the news. Less than 30 minutes ago the director of national intelligence, John Ratcliffe, former republican congressman, hes very controversial. He ascended to the position recently after dinged once and not able to get the job. So John Ratcliffe and fbi director chris wray announced that iran and russia have, in ratcliffes words, taken specific actions to influence Public Opinion relating to our elections. They have also, he said, obtained Voter Registration information. We have confirmed that some Voter Registration information has been obtained by iran and separately by russia. This data can be used by foreign actors to attempt to communicate false information to registered voters that they hope will cause confusion, sow chaos and undermine your confidence in american democracy. Just to be clear here, Voter Registration information, which is called the voter file, is you can get that publicly. Every campaign in america buys a voter file. Its floated around on the web for years. So thats not crazy or that surprising theyve obtained this. Its different than hacking into Voter Registration databases. Moments before the press conference began the Washington Post reported that the fbi concluded that iran was behind threatening emails sent to democrats that sort of clumsily claimed to be from the protrump proud boys. Natasha bertrand is politicos National Security correspondent where shes broken a number of scoops about this administration and about cyber security. That was weird. I really dont know what to make of that. What do you make of it . It was weird, chris. It was weird because it didnt seem like it was all that urgent like it needed to be announced tonight versus tomorrow, for example. 7 30 p. M. , short notice on wednesday night is pretty, you know, abnormal for the fbi to be holding this kind of press conference, especially for the dni to be holding a press conference like this. They dont really hold press conferences to begin with. So it was odd in that respect and it was also odd because, again, we have kind of known that foreign actors have been targeting this Voter Registration information, that it is kind of a lot of it publicly available already, and its just interesting that we didnt get a lot of detail either about these alleged plots. We know that, you know, John Ratcliffe said that there are entities, foreign entities that have been sending emails out to voters and have been trying to intimidate them, but they did not go into detail for example about the proud boy emails that went out ostensibly from the proud boys but actually from the iranians according to Washington Post reporting. It almost seemed like it was counterprogramming for something and it raised a lot of questions why it had to happen tonight, but it is a show of transparency in some ways and definitely more than we saw from, you know, the government in 2016. Theres also theres subtext here. We should talk about the story. We did an editorial call this morning and the story about the proud boys email was on the list of stories. We talked it through and it was like it was ostensibly sent to voters from info proudboys. Com but it was routed through an estonian server, but it seemed i dont know who was sending it, but it seemed to be not what it was purported to me. It seems to be clearly manipulated. It was clumsy, like it was we are the proud boys and we are intimidating you. Still scary to get that, but that part seemed like a weird and obvious obviously not what it was reporting to be. Here is the thing i found interesting. There was the stuff about concrete details about iran and then these mentions of russia. We know the president hates mentions of russia, he hates when the Intelligence Community talks that russia is trying to influence the election, he hates being warned by his own National Security adviser not to take information from Rudy Giuliani as we now know he was. The whole thing felt to me like managing up by these gentlemen, that they are managing up towards the white house to kind of, like, put, like, the russia stuff in between like a sandwich of iran stuff the president likes so that he will swallow it. And weve seen that before. We saw it in the Statement Released earlier this summer by the top counterintelligence official bill everybody official bill evonino where he said, well, these three countries are interfering in the election and he listed iran, china and russia. Of course, if you read the substance of the statement, it actually didnt say iran and china were interfering directly in the election at that time but that russia was in order to denigrate joe biden. Now we get news that iran is apparently using Voter Registration information to target voters and to try to intimidate them. So perhaps the intelligence officials, National Security officials wanted to hold this press conference to show that, hey, russia is not the only country right. Interfering in the election and thereby ease trumps concerns over, you know, the very Real Intelligence that exists that russia is again interfering to try to help him win and denigrate joe biden. Yeah. I mean, we know that the president s own lawyer was passed information from a guy who the u. S. Intelligence Community Says is explicitly a russian asset, right . We know it has been happening in front of our faces for a while, it is what he was impeached over, it appears to be happening right now, though were not sure. I guess the other question here is about wray and ratcliffe, right . I mean, this is were in dicey territory here. It has been clear to me from the beginning, right, that the president s recipe for reelection was rerunning 2016. It was spurious allegations of corruption against his opponent, aid and help from foreign intelligence agencies, and then some kind of, like, large investigation announcement. He has been berating william barr to investigate his political enemies and his opponent, and arrest him, to arrest joe biden. He has been threatening Christopher Wray and saying how much he doesnt like Christopher Wray and ratcliffe we know is a loyalist who got his job precisely because he was a loyalist. It is interesting to think of that background and sub text with these two men appearing tonight. Yes, and this is a moment, of course, when you really would need to trust your National Security officials. Precisely. To tell the truth about what is actually going on, and ratcliffe has not done much to earn that trust from the American People because he has been known to distort things, to overstate thing, to try to appease the president by perhaps burying certain things. Misrepresenting what the fbi is actually doing, according to my sources and many others, with regard to the hunter biden laptop. Apparently it is still very much under active investigation by the fbi whether it is part of a foreign disinformation plot or foreign intervention plot. So for them to stand up there, for them to give this dramatic emergency Election Security briefing conference, not say all that much, say just enough, say a little bit about iran, say a little bit about russia and be very cryptic about certain things, wray said not to trust certain things you might see online that might try to intimidate you out of voting but he didnt go into what it might be. It just was i think a bit disconcerting for the average viewer, i mean, especially for someone like me who is watching this every day. It took me off guard because, again, the question is, why is this being announced tonight . What is new here . What are we missing . What are they trying to say that theyve not you know, they might not necessarily be able to say outright . I think we are probably going to see more of this in the coming days. Yeah, i mean, the context i think that seems most crucial here is that the president is lobbying and aggressively lobbying for a dramatic intervention by top government officials into the election at the last minute because when they did that the last time it helped him win the election and he wants them to do it again. Like everything has to be, unfortunately, read in that context. It doesnt mean that what theyre saying isnt true. It doesnt mean that iran was behind this. It is just that has to be the frame unfortunately that all of us are now interpreting the information we get from the government. Natasha bertrand, who has done great reporting on this. Thank you for making time on a busy night. Thank you. Coming up, as President Trump tries to make the election a referendum on corruption, his former fixer Michael Cohen joins me to talk about whether it is his best course of action. With 13 days left to go in voting, this election is a referendum on many things. First and foremost, on a day with another 994 americans have died of covid think about that. 1,000 people today, the most in three weeks. It is a referendum, this election, on the president s utter disregard for our health and safety, a colossal governing failure, a once in a century failure, an historic failure. It is a referendum on trumps record more broadly, the 8 Million People now in poverty for instance, but it is also a referendum on corruption. It is a referendum on corruption partly because donald trump and Rudy Giuliani and the rest of trumps cronies think it is a good idea to make the election a referendum on corruption. That is partly because, as i was just saying, in 2016 with the help of former fbi director james comey and a russian intelligence operation, spurious corruption allegations against his opponent helped donald trump eke out a victory. They are very clearly hoping to rerun the same play, but this time donald trump is the president with a record and the record shows and i dont think it is an overstatement or even really a partisan statement that donald trump is the most flagrantly corrupt president in recent memory, possibly ever. I could spend the next 13 hours of shows as we have between now and election day reciting this chapter and verse. I mean, just the circle of indicted people around the president who have been indicted or convicted is wider than anyone since nixon. His Second Campaign manager, paul manafort, was convicted on corruption charges. His Deputy Campaign manager rick gates pleaded guilty to corruption charges. Roger stone was convicted of witness tampering and lying under oath. Trump pardoned him so he could help him win again. Trumps longtime excuse me lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to Campaign Finance violations that probably helped trump win and will be joining me in a few minutes. Trumps third Campaign Manager and former white house chief strategist steve bannon was picked up on a chinese billionaires yacht by the post Office Police for an alleged corrupt scheme to steal money from donors who believed they were building a wall on the mexico border. That mexico was supposed to pay for. Best estimates from the Washington Post at least, what we know, 1. 2 million of public funds have gone into the president s own coffer, to renting rooms, refuelling, staying a night at trump properties. Do you remember trump tried to put the g7 conference at his own resort, tried to award himself a government contract. Foreign trademarks granted to his children while he is president and Campaign Money used for god knows what, including 100,000 on his sons books for no apparent reason, and the bank account we just found out about yesterday in china where he paid over 188,000 in taxes which is about 188,000 more than he paid in the u. S. And he withdrew 15 Million Dollars from while he was president. Thats not to mention the recent guilty plea by the foreigner rnc finance chair, a prominent republican donor, a guy by the name of Elliott Broidy. You may recall the fact that brady, the guy you see there, top rnc guy, fundraiser, you might remember had his own adult film star mistress who he got pregnant, who Michael Cohen took care of with money and an nda. Thats different than the other women that the president slept with who Michael Cohen paid hush money to. Well, Elliott Broidy, you may remember from that story, big republican fundraiser, just pleaded guilty for a corrupt scheme to, get this, take foreign dollars to secretly try to influence the president on behalf of the corrupt foreign interests, and that story doing that was not even a 36hour story. I mean, it barely made it to noon. We didnt even put it in the show. Then yesterday cnn reported the administration is basically trying to give away an enormously preposterously valuable chunk of spectrum, the Defense Department owns, to a republicanwired firm karl rove lobbies for and that one Senior Administration official called the biggest handoff of economic power to a single entity in history. That and the Elliott Broidy, the last 24 hours of the trump corruption beat. Of course, that brings us to Rudy Giuliani, the Rudy Giuliani who originally helped get the president impeached by working with him to corruptly use official u. S. Power to gin up investigations of joe bidens son and who is still at it, still cavorting with and passing along disinformation from people the u. S. Government views as explicitly russian agents, who has been behind the scenes pushing the agenda of foreign governments he appears to be taking money from, whose colleagues have been charged with fraud and Campaign Finance violations. Remember those gentlemen . Rudy giuliani is now the point man man on the corruption charges about his opponents corruption. Charges, the man so able to navigate the waters of International Intrigue that ends up on the latest sasha barren cohen. Up in the latest borat film on his back in a hotel room. Nbc news obtained a copy of the movie that shows giuliani and an actress playing a reporter going into a hotel room for drinks. She purportedly is to interview him. He calls it a complete fiction, and a screen grab was him tucking in his shirt after taking off his microphone after his interview. Again, this is the guy you see on the tv making the corruption allegations. This is the trusted lawyer, adviser for the president. This guy wheeling and dealing in all kinds of foreign matters. This is the guy who the president sends on international missions, who is operating at the highest levels of government but continues to be a symbol of the unbelievable depravity and dupability and corruption of the trump administration. One person just symbolizing it all. And if you right now listening to this, if you are hearing my voice and seeing my face and thinking about who to vote for and are the rare singlevoter corruption voter, never has the choice between two candidates been more clear. Just as Rudy Giuliani is a member of Donald Trumps inner circle. So is Michael Cohen who was Donald Trumps personal attorney for years. In 2018 Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to Campaign Finance violations for organizing hush money payments for the Trump Campaign, among other crimes. Campaign organization and he has spoken out about what his life was like including disloyal memoire, and his podcast mea culpa. It is good to have you on. Im not so sure after that introduction. Boy, you paint me out as something. Im just reciting the record. The world is what it is and the facts are what they are. You are now here. Youre telling the truth as you see it about the president. I also, chris, i also do want to turn around and say in all fairness to rudy, he was actually looking for his mask, all right. You know. During the infamous borat scene . Yes, he was looking for his mask to stay social distancing. I think it is probably right. We may hear it from him. Can you explain to me, i wanted to talk to you tonight because i find the world the thing i find most striking about donald trump as president particularly is sort of how easy it is to get to him, how many different people are able to get a vector to the president with a deal they have, a contract they want, a special policy maybe they can sell him on, whether he is at his club or lev and igor in a back room with him having dinner. My question is what is rudys role in this world . How do you understand rudys role . Well, thats a twopart question. The first is really to answer why donald trump is so easily susceptible. And you really have to think of him as no different than, like, a donkey with a carrot in front of him. The only difference is the carrot is a dollar and hes willing to sell out this country for his own personal gain. Now, as it relates to Rudy Giuliani. , Rudy Giuliani is no longer relevant in this campaign. First of all, they all know theyre going to lose the campaign so everyones kind of running right now for cover, and thats including rudy. This last one with borat is sort of the icing on the cake. Rudy has become a complete joke. And theres no reason to have him around. In all fairness, too, rudy and Chris Christie are really the ones that turned around and told trump that what you want to do is to interrupt joe biden as much as possible in the earlier debate because joe biden is known to have a stuttering issue and the way you throw a stutterer off is really to interrupt every word that he says. So rudys usefulness is no longer relevant and hes going to be gonzo as well. I should know Chris Christie has denied he gave that advice, just to put that on the record. But the point about the donkey and the carrot to me is sort of one of the unifying theories here, and it is important for a lot of things. People say, well, why is he why has the president acted the way he has towards putin . And, of course, hes been extremely complimentary of xi in china and erdogan in turkey and the saudis and mbs. Ing about it is that he wants to do deals in those countries, he wants to make money with those countries, he is thinking about what he is going to do after. What is your account of it . No, thats the second part of it. The first part is he admires them because theyre autocrats. Right. Because they are dictators in their country. Putin doesnt have to run. Hes the president for as long as he wants to be president. The same with kim jongun, xi the same thing, erdogan, duerte, thats why he likes them. Now, on the second part, yes, he wants to do deals because it is financially beneficial to him. Hes willing to sell out america and the American People, all for a dollar. Thats when we started the campaign, you have to remember the entire campaign was predicated around the donald trump adage that this is going to be the greatest infomercial in the history of american politics. Right. It was all about building the brand, the trump brand. Instead, because he is a dummy, what he ended up doing is messing everything up. He destroyed whatever is left of the brand and now there will be nothing left when he ends up getting indicted by a multitude of different investigations. Thats one of the ironies here, of course, is for all of the corruption and all of the kind of pettiness and the ways in which different peoples fingers have been in different troughs, that it has been bad for the trump business, right . I mean, the trump Family Business in 2020, it seems to me, is in bad shape and that, itself, might create its own dangers and exposure in the person who is the president of the United States. Well, chris, no, no, no, dont forget, hes the greatest negotiator. He can negotiate any deal that you want. Whatever deal, im a great dealmaker. No, youre not, mr. President. Youre not a great dealmaker. Actually, youre a lousy dealmaker. You were fortunate enough to have good people around you and fortunate enough to have daddys money coming into the game. Short of that, he would probably be just like atlantic city, broke. What about since were talking about if there are some singleissue nepotism voters out there im not quite sure how to ask this. What do the sons do . Like, do they i dont understand what they do. It was preposterous fiction the president was going to have the sons run the business and have nothing to do with them. Thats clearly not the case. Everything is tangled together, the business, the presidency, the campaign, but, like, what do they have jobs . Yeah, they have jobs. They go into the office. What they do is obviously nobody knows. You know, they don jr. Runs around and he makes speeches. Eric is in the office i dont know what hes running. You have Allen Weissleberg, the cfo who is in charge of the trust. Theyre not buying anything. Theyre not really doing anything. In all fairness, all theyre trying to do is retain whatever assets they have because the market, of course, has taken a tremendous plunge, especially in commercial real estate where their properties have something in the neighborhood of 30 , 40 vacancy. The company, as you rightly stated, are in big trouble. Theyre going to be in bigger trouble when the irs gets their hands on them with all the tax evasion and hes going to have to pay that back. Yeah, do you do you do you think that there will be more we learn about the nature of the president s financial dealings, specifically during this period as president than we know now . Well, youre not going to get it certainly before the election. The question then becomes, after the election, during the 60day period before the transition, will there be an outing of the documents . Well, i believe that if biden is successful, and as you know i actually put a bet that donald trump is going to lose and joe biden is going to win. If that happens then i believe that therell be plenty of people that are going to be looking to run for like what Allen Weissleberg and others did for immunity in terms of prosecution, and they will start spilling all the beans. Michael cohen, this is the first time we got a chance to talk to each other. I appreciate you taking some time to talk to us tonight. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. See you soon. All right. Be safe. One of the top experts on trump corruption, andrea bernstein. Author of american oligarchs the curbers, the trumps and the marriage of money and power. She joins me now. You cannot be comprehensive in your description of the corruption stories because they have come so fast and furious. The kushner real estate deals and how that ties to other countries. I want to go through, like, the last 24 hours we have here on this beat. I know, the broidy thing, to me, strikes me as an enormous deal. It got very little coverage. Here is a guy one of the top fundraisers of the party. He is a finance chair of the rnc. What hes pleaded to is foreign interests are paying him to try to push his agenda with the president of the United States. Yes, and the agenda he was trying to push was to try to get the Justice Department to drop a case. So, i mean, i think that, you know, one of the things that trump is so brilliant at is using systems against themselves and he sort of busted this scandal machine. Its impossible to track all of this. And, you know, we who spend all our time doing it are sort of outsmarted in a way. But i think the really important thing to keep in mind is this is the system has been corrupted and thats why we keep seeing all these individual acts and cases of corruption because thats trumps legacy, is that hes managed to break down so many norms and so many systems it is so easy to gain access to important people and to gain access to the levers of the government if youre a friend of trump. Yes, and, i mean, the times has done a great job documenting this. Youve done a great job documenting this is reporting it out. Systematically, the way that trump world functions and the way that favortrading functions in the world really reminds me of when i covered politics in chicago. Very flagrantly corrupt in an oldfashioned transactional way. A person shows up at your club and theyre a member. They get the ear of the president and work you over on some side deal they want the president to pursue and the president tells his deputies, like, look into that. There is so much of that. Its more egregious than the systemic corruption we saw before trump. Do you think thats true . Yes, exactly right. Trump was literally weaned on this. This is how he was raised with a sense that if you pay a government official, you can or you hire somebody or you show up at their rubber chicken fundraiser, you can get a tax break, you can get a zoning variance. Right. You can get something from the government. That was the original oligarchic bold, i model, ill give something to somebody and ill get it back. Thats how hes run his entire government. Hes not secretive about it. Hes obvious. He says to people who patronize his properties are good people, they get things. People who do not are bad people and do not get things and or get punished. Yeah, thats why this there is a sort of petty grubbing stuff, right . But then there is the foreign interest, the fact that we know from Rex Tillerson and others that Rudy Giuliani was lobbying to get the Justice Department to drop cases highly sensitive to the turkish government. We dont know if he was being paid by the turkish government. We know Elliott Broidy was trying similar stuff. The idea that the Defense Department is being pushed right now by the president to rush a contract to give away a huge part of spectrum to a connected firm, that is corruption 101. Thats how it works. Weve built up decades of rules and systems in the government to prevent it from happening. Right. And i mean, i think, you know, sort of trumps original sin was to not divert from his company, sending a signal that its fine to mix government and business interests, and that is exactly the way his government has been conducted. There is no shame. There is no compunction. Its hard to even cover it as corruption because its so obvious and in plain sight. And i think unfortunately, you know, one of the things we know from transitions is they are times when should trump lose this election, when it is a time to give extra amounts of favors. Right. That happens during a normal government. So i am not entirely sure what to expect during a trump transition should it happen, but i would expect and one of the things were going to be watching for on the trumpian podcast is what happens. Are friends getting giveaways . Trump sees it as his. My generals. The irs works for him. Even the dni apparently works for him. So its very disturbing that he sees government as all belonging to him and he cannot distinguish between his personal and political interests and the interests of the country. Yeah, the u. S. Government take a finders fee on tiktok, which he strongarmed into a sale. Andrea bernstein. Yeah, thank you so much, chris. Thank you for your great reporting. I appreciate it. Next, with 13 days until voting ending until voting ends, there are fascinating new polls in battleground states. Toopd was also barack obama day on the campaign trail. David plouffe and alex swagger join me to talk about it all next. E to talk about it all next you start a story, youre on an adventure. Download a new book within seconds and its ready to go. Theres something for everybody on audible. I like short stories. Short stories are easy. Theyre quick. I like long and like intricate stories, thats really what i love. Audible originals. I like biographies. Selfhelp. Fantasy. True crime podcasts. I love it so much. I can literally listen to anything. I can do it any time. And any place. And you know, for as long as i like. Getting really into a story can totally transform where you are and your mindset. Its really cool. Every time i learn something new, it just fuels the curiosity to explore more, to learn more. Theres anything and everything. To start your free 30day trial, just text listen 17 to 500500. All right. We are 13 days from election day, which is the end of the Voting Period, right . Thats the world were in right now. Its the final twoweek stretch where americans now in every single state are now voting. Theyre either voting by mail which is available in some form in all 50 states or early inperson voting which is now going on in 43 states. Were in the Voting Period now across the country. And we always knew this year was going to be nuts in terms of enthusiasm and turnout on both sides to be clear, but also the added complexity to holding an election during a once in a century pandemic which means, of course, more people are going to use alternate forms of voting they havent used before as opposed to lining up primarily on election day. Lo and behold the numbers are bonkers. Over 36 million votes have already been cast in this election. To give you a sense of what that means, that is three times as many votes as had been cast at exactly this point four years ago. Now, just in texas which historically has been a low turnout state. Early and mailin voting has already reached 50 of the total turnout in 2016. With two weeks to go, texas could very well surpass 2016 turnout before election day this year. We could also get a good sense of whats going on by looking at colorado. Colorado has had essentially universal voting since 2013. More than 1 million coloradans have already voted as of today, thats up 160 from the same point in 2016. So thats an applestoapples comparison. You dont have people switching from one method to the other because of the pandemic. Theyre already mail voters there and you still have a huge increase. So thats where we are in voting 13 days left. I would urge you if you have not voted, take a moment to go to nbcnews. Com planyourvote. Im going to be voting early in person on monday. It starts this weekend. Its the best method for me. One of the things i like about it is you can vote when its relatively uncrowded and not worry about the mail or signature matches or things like that with your mailin vote. Now, when we look at where the polls stand, the picture is bad for donald trump. The republicans. Thats just what the data indicates right now. Joe biden leads by 8. 3 points in the nbc polling average. We have a bunch of new state polls i think give a good picture where we are. In iowa, a New York Times Sienna College of likely voters shows biden up three points among likely voters. A no monmouth poll shows a statistical tie, 4847. In georgia, also tied, 4845, according to New York Times poll out yesterday. A big quinnipiac poll shows biden up eight points among likely voters in pennsylvania. A lot of people think will be a Tipping Point state. The person who wins that state will win the electoral college. Heres the thing. Quinnipiac also found biden and trump tied in texas among likely voters. 4747. So take a step back for a second. Put all of this together right now. We have a Playing Field in which iowa, texas and georgia, where its a total of 60 electoral votes, are up for grabs, according to polling. Donald trump won those states last time by an average of seven or eight points and joe biden doesnt need to win any of them to get to 270 electoral votes. All those states tied up with 13 days to go is not where you want to be if you are donald trump and the republican party. Donald trump is on defense. Hes also getting desperate. He may become particularly dangerous down the final stretch, especially given that joe bidens Biggest Campaign asset is now out on the campaign trail in person for the first time. Former president obama appeared at a drivein rally at a ballpark in philly. Honked their approval as obama gave a forceful contrast between the two men currently running for president. I can tell you the presidency doesnt change who you are, it reveals who you are. Donald trump isnt suddenly going to protect all of us. He cant even take the basic steps to protect himself. Joe knows that a first the first job of a president is to keep us safe from all threats, foreign, domestic or microscopic. Our democracys not going to work if the people who are supposed to be our leaders lie every day. Alex wagner was at that rally tonight covering the race for showtimes the circus. She joins me tonight along with david plouffe, Campaign Manager for Barack Obamas 2008 successful president ial run. Author of a citizens guide to beating donald trump. Alex, i want to start with Barack Obamas first big appearance on the campaign trail in this cycle at a drivein rally. It was perfectly surreal of covid times with the cars honking their approval, but a reminder of just how many targets there are in the case against donald trump. What did you think . Yeah. I got to say, chris, i got there and i wasnt sure that i was at the rally because there was just a vast empty series of parking lots. It wasnt the stadiums packed to the rafters, you know, the events of yore. It was totally weird. Nonetheless, you could feel a certain level of enthusiasm. I spoke to a number of people there and they were very excited to see barack obama. I think barack obama was excited to be on the campaign trail. There was like a sense of catharsis in the air. Im finally getting the chance to say all the things about donald trump ive been wanting to say. I can talk about his tax returns and his chinese bank account and his ripping asunder of the aca. He had a lot of stuff to get off his chest. The overwhelming message i got from the event was dont think we won this. Go out there and vote. I mean, obama began his remarks instructing pennsylvania voters on the security envelope for the ballots. He wants to make sure that Everybody Knows how to vote and that their votes get counted. He talked about the importance of showing up at the polls. The mandate that leaders could have if 60 , 70 of the country voted. It became very evident, you know, through the course of the speech that the Biden Campaign is a little concerned about, you know, not a little just a little concerned, but a lot concerned about apathy, a sense of comfort the democrats might feel when they look at some of this polling and they want them to be scared about, you know, the silent majority coming out strong on election day. So they sent their closer to the keystone state to make that argument. Yeah. And that point about apathy, david, its its really interesting, right . So weve had a fairly stable race. And there was a bump postdebate. I think it showed up in the polling averages. It showed up in the national and local polls. From a race that settled from an increment to about eight points to up to about 10. 5. The biden people genuinely dont think 10. 5 is where the race is at, also dont want people to think thats where the race is at. They were on many calls saying this is not the race we see. What is your sense of where the race expects to go or wants to go in an equilibrium sense in the last two weeks . Well, we should be honest about the numbers. Theyre polls, theyre not votes, but were learning a lot from the early voting. Bidens position in the race is much stronger than hillarys in 2016, barack obama in 2012, even states stronger for him than in 08. That being said, you look at polls that are 5043 or 5144, my sense is trump is going to get more of whats remaining people unallocated, number one. And number two, i think hes going to get strong turnout. I think biden can get strong turnout as well, but thats why i think president obamas trip throughout philadelphia today was so important to take on that apathy and to tell people to ignore the polls. So my sense is we should expect some closing. Maybe joe biden wins pennsylvania by 10 or 11 points. I would be shocked beyond belief. That would mean the bottom would completely fall out for donald trump. Its probably a 20 possibility. Georgia, iowa, texas, you showed those states. Those are all, i think, not going to be joe bidens 270th electoral vote. Its definitely putting donald trump on defense. The Biden Campaign is focussing. The Vice President is headed to florida. Take care of the likely Tipping Point states and the rest are great and they matter i think for decades, the fact that there is so much organizing going on in texas and georgia, and i think both of those are going to be really close, but thats my sense, is we should expect some tightens here. And the one thing we just dont know is what is turnout . Are both sides blowing the doors out . Is one side having a slight advantage . We wont know that really until we start unpacking real votes. Its such a weird campaign, obviously, for many reasons. Alex, youve been covering it and, you know, you and i have been out on the campaign trail before in normal times. Youre out there in the nonnormal times and, you know, it occurs to me because the campaign is the debates end up becoming they have a sort of outsized importance because you dont have the normal slate of things that are happening that are a campaign. Youve got these two big setpiece events. How important do you see the debate being . What is your sense from reporting and talking to the different camps about how theyre viewing tomorrow night . Well, i mean, i think all of this is just a study in contrast, right . Trump is still having those big stadium rallies. Biden is going out of his way to say, look, im the responsible one who listens to science and cares about Public Health and this is why i may for the look like i have the enthusiastic crowds but im doing what is right for the country. Thats how theyre preparing for the debate. We have news from the New York Times that trump has tentatively scheduled two onehour debate prep sessions heading into thursday. That does not sound like someone to me particularly keen on developing a robust strategy different from the last debate. I think trump thinks he is successful when he gives red meat to his base, humiliation, fear and anger. And i think thats what were going to see on the debate stage on thursday and the question is whether that moves anybody who wouldnt already be voting into the column. He cant avoid that. That is what he likes doing. By the way, the last time they got together for debate prep, two men ended up in the hospital. I hope it goes better this time. David, i have to ask about the reporting on the campaigns finances. The cash on hand, which is incredible. He was out in california doing an inperson fundraiser this late in the game, which is not a good sign. What did they do with all the money . How did they go through all that money on the Trump Campaign . Thats the question, chris. Not just where the cash on hand is today. Theyre an incumbent. Theyve been planning since he was inaugurated on january 20th, 2017, theyve filed his reelection campaigns, raising money and he squandered it. Some of it was super bowl ads that were ridiculousy early. I think there will be investigations about this and there could be real culpability on this. Weve seen how much theyve spent on trump properties. It is epic political malpractice. Weve seen how hes mismanaged the presidency, the pandemic, our relationships with allies. You know, 16 for him was, you know, kind of a ram shackle campaign. They didnt have that much money. This time they did and theyve blown it. Here at the close of the Campaign Biden has the airwaves to himself in states like ohio. So i dont know if its going to make a difference but youd certainly rather have these resources to play offense. Im sure therell be investigations for years to come on this. Alex wagner and david plouffe, great pleasure to have you both tonight. Thank you both. Coming up, senator Bernie Sanders on the increasing popularity of the biden agenda and whether nancy pelosi can actually pull off a rescue package ahead. If you have medicare, listen up. The medicare enrollment deadline is only weeks away. With so many changes, do you know if your plan is still the right fit . Having the wrong plan may cost you thousands of dollars out of pocket. And thats why i love healthmarkets, your Insurance Marketplace. With healthmarkets fitscore, they compare thousands of plans from National Insurance companies to find the right medicare plan that fits you. Call or visit healthmarkets to find your fitscore today. In minutes, you can find out if your current plan is the right fit and once youve let the fitscore do the work, sit back and enjoy not having to shop for insurance again. Healthmarkets fitscore forever technology will continuously scan the market for the best coverage at the best price. So you can shop once and save again and again and again. 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With the annual medicare enrollment deadline coming, go to healthmarkets. Com or call right now. Your Insurance Market place. Healthmarkets. Find your fitscore and get your answers today to get the most out of medicare. Call the number on your screen or go to healthmarkets. Com call now. Theres not much we agree on as americans these days, but there is one thing a huge majority of the country, a staggering 72 support right now, and thats the 2 trillion covid relief package proposed by democrats. More than 3 4 of the country, including a majority of republicans, are in favor of helping people who have been crushed by the Coronavirus Crisis through unemployment benefits, stimulus checks and money for state and local governments. Standing in the way of all of that is Mitch Mcconnell and his Senate Caucus who do not like that. Today in what seemed like a lame attempt to squeeze democrats, mcconnell offered up a 500 million proposal that contained no stimulus. He could find himself between the white house and Congressional Democrats after lots and lots of false starts and recriminations and posturing, it looks like maybe treasury secretary Steve Mnuchin and House Speaker nancy pelosi are on the verge of figuring out a relief package. Im pretty happy. I think we have a prospect for an agreement. There will be a bill. Its a question of is it time to pay the november rent, which is my goal, or is it going to be shortly thereafter and retroactive. Senator Bernie Sanders is very much looking forward to voting on a bill that would provide support for millions of families who desperately need it and he joins me now. Senator, i have been around this rodeo a bunch. For weeks. I dont know how to interpret the news. I feel like you have a better sense of what is going on. So just what is your sense of whats going on . I will tell you exactly whats going on. Mitch mcconnell has already told you. And that is no matter what trump wants, no matter what nancy pelosi wants, he has 20 United States senators who dont want to vote for anything. Who are turning their backs on American Workers in a time of more desperation in our country economically than any time since the great depression. Thats the reality. What Mitch Mcconnell does not want is a bill which essentially becomes a democratic bill and the republicans look stupid. That is exactly where we are at this moment. Right. I mean, i guess the question is he clearly cant hold the caucus. The caucus doesnt want a big relief bill. Theyve been very clear. Lindsey graham some do. Some do, most dont. So i guess, i mean, i dont know, you work there. Like, is there a i cant tell if im being strung along here. Is there a universe where they strike a deal with mnuchin and mcconnell brings it up to a vote and passes it with the vast majority of his caucus voting against it ten days before election day . It is a possibility, chris, but i wouldnt bet the family farm on it. Mcconnell worries about a whole lot of things. Most importantly, he worries about making sure that he is going to be in control of the senate after the election. So hes got to listen to those 20 guys out there and women who say, you know what, do not do anything. I want to ask you about some polling that i saw that ive been scratching my head over. Id like to hear your sense of it. The president likes to tout it. It was a gallup poll that was conducted last month asking people, like, are you better off than you were four years ago . I would expect most people say, no, its a disaster, everything in this countrys terrible, but 56 said yes, and i dont know what to make of it. Im curious, i know youve been going around the country and talking to people and doing town halls, what youre hear from people where they are at right now. Look, im not hearing that people are better off today versus four years ago. You can debate how people felt before the pandemic. Right now the facts are quite clear. Weve lost tens of millions of jobs. Millions of people have lost their health care. I mean, you just saw 1. 5 Million People in new york alone, one city, having a hard time feeding their kids. So i do not believe that most people today after the pandemic consider themselves better off than they were four years ago. But clearly in my view what biden has got to do in the last two weeks, what we have got to do with the democratic congress, is make sure we do not go back to business as usual. Im going to fight for 100day agenda, which speaks to the needs and the pain of working families today. Were going to raise that minimum wage to a living wage. Were going to create millions of goodpaying jobs. Rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. Transforming our Energy System. Were going to expand health care. I want to see us move forward to a medicare for all singlepayer system, at least the first year, that lowers the eligibility age from 65 down to 55. Got to deal with criminal justice, immigration reform. Right now if there was ever a moment in American History where the Democratic Party has got to be strong, bold and stand up to powerful special interests, this is that moment. You know, one thing thats striking about this moment because it is such a crisis is the polling on the relief bill is interesting, right . Youve got huge youve got a majority of republicans, huge majority of the country saying, yeah, we should do this. This is interesting because it says something where the country is ideological. The times polling this week, 66 of americans say they support the Biden Campaigns 2 trillion climate plan and, you know, it was identified as that, 2 trillion. It was identified in the same polling asked about a 2 trillion relief bill. Do you think things have changed a little bit in the Politics Around spending austerity and investment . No question. No question about that. I think people understand that we are at an unprecedented moment in American History. The economy is in worse shape than any time since the great depression. People are hurting. They want their government to stand with them, not just the 1 . So people understand not only that Climate Change is an existential threat to the planet, they do understand that we can create millions of goodpaying jobs transforming our Energy System away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency. So thats a twofer. You know, combat Climate Change. We lead the world in a new direction, we create millions of jobs. People understand that. People want that. Final final question for you, you know, you and i have talked a lot over the years and youre someone i think sees politics through a framework of policies and substance and what a government delivers to people. And im curious your views how important character and personality and decency are for the job of president of the United States, for a job or leadership or in politics, particularly when that seems like such a clear intense contrast as we head towards this election. I think in this election it is enormously important. Chris, i think the American People, frankly, are sick and tired of the lies. Theyre sick and tired of an antiscience president who endangers all of us because he calls people like dr. Fauci dr. Fauci idiots. Who rejects science. In the pandemic and in Climate Change. So i think what the American People want is a president who is not going create hysteria every single day. Yeah. Not going to be firing people. Not going to be attacking people. Not going to be arguing with lesley stahl or with dr. Fauci. They would like a president maybe who would focus on their needs. Right. How do we get health care for all . How do we deal with the pandemic . So maybe its time for us to focus on the needs of the American People and not just the craziness of donald trump. Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for making time tonight. That is all in for this wednesday night. Special shoutout to stage manager eddie you did not see what he deserved credit for. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, chris. I am lip reading you right now because i cant actually hear you. Right now because i cant actually hear you, so im just telling you that. Telling our control room right now that i dont have any audio at this point. Which is fine, as long as i am talking and you can hear me, but i know were going to be bringing on some guests in just a moment, so my audio cut out in the middle of senator sanders speaking to chris hayes there. But well take it from here. Its been that kind of a day. Its 13 days until the election. Over the last 24 hours, i need to tell you, we at the show have had at least 16 different people, 16 different viewers of this show, send us a version of this email. We got these just from regular folks, just viewers of the show who said they received it and were weirdedut