Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20200918

Restraint, this is the greatest intrusion on Civil Liberties in american history. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. The most trusted person in america when it comes to cboe pandemic according to polling is dr. Anthony fauci. The director of the National Institute of allergy and infectious diseases. And there is good reason for that, right . Hes a legend in the field of infectious diseases. He served six president s, democrats and republicans. He played a major crucial role in helping contain the hiv aids epidemic he was personally treating ebola patients as early as five years ago. His entire career has been building for the battle we are now in with a once in a century pandemic he has been a scientific voice of reason throughout there is no denying the u. S. Has had a disastrous response. The numbers dont lie. We are now in the cusp of hitting 200,000 deaths that horrific death toll represents a far higher mortality per capita rate than the rest of the world. While we have come down from our peak of cases in the summer, thank god, we look to be plateauing at nearly 40,000 cases a day, a huge number we are also losing almost 1,000 americans a day still. Today seven months after this began, we still have a ton of concern about Community Transmission along with whats happening right now at colleges, for instance while there has been good news out of a lot of places, new york, for instance, we are also now seeing spikes in the midwest and elsewhere. The weather is getting cooler in most of the country, so this is a Pivotal Moment we are heading into the fall and winter we are heading indoors where transmission is more likely. Add to that flu season and things have the potential to get very bad what the next new months will look like depends on whats happening now. With us is dr. Anthony fauci director of the National Institute of allergy and infectious diseases, the director of health doctor, its fantastic to have you on the program thank you so much. Thank you for having me good to be with you. Lets start with where we are right now. When you sort of look at it in a broad view, it looks to me like were at a place not that dissimilar from where we were before midsummer when we had that big second spike through the sun belt, which is to say the spike has come down. We still have 800 deaths is that good enough . Is the status quo right now good enough its not. Weve got to do better as you mentioned correctly, you know, its a mixed bag in the country. There are a number of areas that are doing really well. Hospitalizations down, cases down, deaths down, but there are areas in which there is an increase in what we call the percent positive of the test, which is usually a predictor that there may be a surge. Although many areas are doing well, my concern is something that you pointed out just a moment ago the baseline of where we have settled to 30 to 40, to 45,000 cases a day is something where weve got to get that baseline down and i think we can do it its up to us, and we want to do it really right now as we enter into the fall and winter season when most of the activities will then come indoors. And its not something thats undoable we know from history, chris, that if you do things like universal wearing of masks, physical distancing, avoiding crowds, doing things outdoors more than indoors within the time frame that we have now before the weather gets cooler and cold and then washing hands, we know if we do that, we can bring those numbers down so what i would like to see is that baseline that you showed on the chart comes way down so that when we enter into the coolest season, were doing it from a much Better Vantage Point than having that up so were doing well in some cases. Lets get the entire country or the baseline down. I mean, whats the i want to follow up on that, but before i do, its sort of your job to worry. One of the things we have learned about this pandemic, right, is sunny optimism hasnt really been rewarded so much since things started in january. I mean, whats keeping you up at night . Whats the thing you are really worried about right now . Well, the thing that im worried about is if we dont do what i just mentioned a moment ago, chris, and we enter into a more challenging situation with the cooler weather, we could start having surges that will then go up we want to open the economy. We want to open the country as it were to get jobs back, to start approaching normal i think with a vaccine, which will be becoming and im sure we will be discussing in a moment, the fact is if we do both of those things together, we can get to the point where we will be approaching normally. But it is within our power to do it lets make the decision. Were going to do it were going to pull together as a country. And as we start to open gradually, well do it prudently and carefully and according to the guidelines it is not rocket science, chris. We can do it and we can put an end to this. So lets talk about the what adds up to us suppressing the virus . It seems to me the masks are one. Dr. Redfield saying, look, this is almost as important as a vaccine in terms of mitigation you agree with him on that, correct . I think there was misinterpretation on that. Until we have a vaccine, masking, physical distancing, avoiding crowds is the Public Health proven way to go. I wouldnt want to be comparing efficacy of a vaccine versus a mask there are two independent ways that we want to synergize with each other i almost want you to break the fourth wall and say there is a donald trump on your shoulder that you are running this through . No. De has said masks dont work and hes ridiculed people for Wearing Masks i guess my question to you is the science does say masks work, right . This is really important people wear masks and when we see big, crowded events of people not Wearing Masks, that is not good. Chris, i have been Crystal Clear for a long time in what i have been saying i dont think there is any ambiguity of what i have been saying masks are important. Combine it with physical distancing, avoiding crowds and washing hands and it works end of story its true. No question about that. What about bars and restaurants, though . Youre talking about behavioral interventions. Behavioral interventions, washing hands, things like that. Those are things we can control and adapt. It seems to me the evidence from arizona and from texas and new york city and from dr. Birx is that that would help us a lot if we kept those closed do you agree with that i agree, chris. The cdc came out with a figure thats really telling. It shows the odds of risk of different types of situations that give you a higher risk of transmissibility and coming right at you from the big fur is restaurants, bars and gyms when you have restaurants indoors in a situation where you have a high degree of infection in the community, you are not Wearing Masks. Thats a problem and thats the reason why we are very, very clear when we make a recommendation, depending on the level of infection in the community weve got to look very carefully at things like bars are a really important place of spreading of infection there is no doubt about that and that becomes particularly important if you happen to be in an area with a high degree of Community Spread to those are things that are Crystal Clear, chris you mentioned the vaccine. We have a situation in which dr. Redfield testifies and says, in terms of logistics, phase three trials, approval of the fda and getting it into the population were looking at second or Third Quarter of next year mark meadows comes out and says were thinking a hundred million doses maybe by the election. What should we believe like that time line is not realistic. What do you think . Well, what i think is what the facts are, and ive gotten the facts about and i dont think there is that much if you make sure youre clear in how you explain it in the difference between what the president said and what he was trying to say. Right now regardless of when a vaccine gets approved initially, numbers of doses of vaccines from multiple companies are being produced and are available. And when you look at the availability of the doses, and i think here is where the misunderstanding is, chris what the president was saying is that, remember, first of all, we all have to realize that we dont know when and if there is going to be an approved vaccine. Im cautiously optimistic that there will be. The time frame of when you get enough data for the fda to with confidence say that its effective and safe projected would likely be more likely november, december it could possibly be october, absolutely a possibility of that lets say it is. There will be closes available in the end of november, the beginning of december into january and february where if, in fact, you want to vaccinate people, which we can and we will, you can start vaccinating people in december, in january and february with a considerable number of doses. You want to prioritize you want to get the people who would benefit most and who need it the most Like Health Care workers, like those with underlying conditions, like those with the elderly so technically speaking and theoretically, the president is correct. There will be enough doses in the First Quarter that if you vaccinated everybody, you would be able to do that what redfield was saying was not necessarily incompatible with that what he was saying was if we know what happens when you roll out vaccines that people often hesitate. Right. And even though the vaccines are there to be able to administer, people may say, you know, i want to wait until a number of millions of people get vaccinated before i decide i want to. What that means from a practical standpoint is that when we talk about when do we have enough of america vaccinated that we could start to feel were going to get back to some form of normality that very likely will be, as dr. Redfield said, somewhere in the third and early part of the Fourth Quarter of 2021 so they were really both correct, chris, in many respects there wasnt that much difference in what they were saying when you talk about the reticence, though, and meadows seems to think by november youre saying q1, which there is a little bit of difference there. But you are going to be by november i have the numbers here. By november there likely will be Something Like 50 million doses available in november. And then when you get december, it gets more and more and more and more. Heres the key question to me you and i both know there is already this ambient antivax sentiment thats around. Combine that with the fact polling indicates people dont have a lot of trust in the pronouncements of the president on the coronavirus, and we have seen the number of people saying that they are going to take the vaccine declining, you are going to play a crucial role i mean, people that are watching this program right now, people have said to me, like, ill take it if Anthony Fauci tells me its safe. Okay. Do you awe sure all of us that if the corners have been cut, if there is something sideways or wrong with the process, that you will tell us and take the heat for that yes the answer, chris, is yes. There are multiple fail safe measures that are going to be pretty transparent and let me just take a quick moment to explain that. Yeah. There is whats called a data and safety monitoring Board Associated with the vaccine trial. An independent group beholden to no one, not to the government, not to the fda, not to the drug company, not to me they will look at the data they will analyze it, and they will determine is there statistically enough information there to say that it is effective and then obviously the safety issues come up when you get an adverse event once that information becomes available, the company will go to the fda and say we would like to either apply for an application license or do an emergency use authorization. The fda will make the judgment as to whether or not according to your criteria that its worth doing that and there will be advisory bodies, and there will be people like me, like the director of the nih who will be looking at that and i can tell you that there will be a degree of transparency now obviously there is a lot of talk about political pressure. But the one thing we need to rely on, the fda has made it very clear that they will not be influenced by Political Considerations we at the nih and the Scientific Community are very adamant about that so if, in fact, it looks like that vaccine is safe and effective, i can tell the American Public that i will take the vaccine when its available to me, and i will recommend to that is genuinely reassuring. I actually feel conflicted here because i want to take a responsible role in covering this story, right . I have learned not to take things at face value at the same time, i dont want to stoke irrational fears about a vaccine. We have a story today that the cdcs scientific vetting process was bypassed when there was a testing recommendation that was put up on the website bypassing it we have multiple examples of politicals bypassing scientific processes. So you can understand peoples fear and skepticism given that this is an established pattern thats happened. I can understand what you are saying a lot of that is just a bit of confusion. I think the testing issue was just not rolled out correctly. I can tell you right now that we should be testing more, and we should be testing asymptomatic people chris, take that to the bank trust me on that. Im going to let you go in a second two more questions for you if you will stay with us. One is about olivia troy theres pictures of her with you in the west wing, in the oval office you know, basically saying, look, i was so despondent i left and im cutting an ad saying, you know, that the president basically didnt listen to us. He didnt care about the coronavirus. He only cared about his reelection. I know you cant get into politics so my question to you is this. It is dispiriting to hear this womans testimony. There are people with a lot of anxiety right now, trying to home school their kids, worried about elderly and Immunocompromised People around them what do you think about the president of the United States doesnt care you know, chris, youre right. I really cant comment on that i liked olivia she was a good person. He was important to the team as a staff person to the Coronavirus Task force, but i dont know what to make about what just has come out recently. It would be very difficult for me to comment on that. The only thing i can say is there are a lot of people who are looking carefully and are driven by the truth. And i think the American People should feel confidence in that, that a lot of people are looking at this very, very carefully to make sure that there is not political things that drive what should be scientific considerations im one of them, and i have a number of colleagues that are with me. Final question for you. You were a basketball player at Regis High School here in new york city. Great place. We used to play them back in the day, actually, and they can shoot. You were captain of the team there you are right there. When you talked about gyms as places that are not particularly safe, my frame work for back to normal is playing pickup basketball, which i have not done through the pandemic for obvious reasons. So the big question for you is when will i be able to play pickup basketball . That to me is the marker that we are really back to normal. When can i expect that when can i be planning for my first pickup game . Well, i will challenge you to one, chris but i can tell you when we can do that. Absolutely. Well get both vaccinated and play. Exactly you know, it gets back to the question that you mentioned thats important, so im glad you brought it up. It gets back to the point when when can we as a country feel that we really have achieved a degree of normality with a combination of widespread acceptance of the vaccine getting the country formally and predominantly almost completely vaccinated together with Public Health measures. I think by the third or Fourth Quarter of this year, we can be up against each other oneonone going for the boards. That is more optimistic if we do get there, then im taking you up on it. Maybe we can find out if the Regis High School gym is open for us thank you for being with me tonight. Thank you, chris. I appreciate you having me. All right dont go anywhere. Were going to talk about what we just learned from dr. Fauci plus more on that former aide denouncing the president s handling of the pandemic what she witnesses next. We miss you. Its totally not the same without you. We miss your lets do this look, the sound of your laugh cry screams, and how you make every day here the best day ever. We cant wait to get you back so weve added temp checks, face coverings, social distancing and extra sanitizing to get the good times going again. Were finally back. And cant wait until you are too. Buy now and get two days free at the parks. Restrictions apply. There appears to be an open revolt in the government who have had enough of the president s insane mendacity today a former aide to Vice President mike pence who worked on the Coronavirus Task force denouned the president s handling of the pandemic and endorsed joe biden in a new ad i have been on the Covid Task Force from day one the virus is very unpredictable at the beginning there are a lot of unknowns, but towards the middle of february, we knew it wasnt a matter of if covid would become a pandemic here in the United States. It was a matter of when. But the president didnt want to hear that because his biggest concern was we were in an election year. When we were in a task force meeting, the president said maybe this covid thing is a good thing. I dont like shaking hands with people i dont have to shake hands with these disgusting people. Those disgusting people are the same people he claims to care about. Those are the same people going to his rallies today who have complete faith in who he is. I just talked to dr. Anthony fauci who said there are a lot of people on the task force looking at the science im joined by a member of the New York Times Editorial Board that came down with the coronavirus earlier this year. Shes still recovering and zerlina maxwell. Let me start with you just because its so remarkable always to watch dr. Anthony fauci communicate and kind of walk the tight rope. We all know the president who is horribly irresponsible and says all sorts of bad things. He sticks to his guns and talks about the science. You cannot help but notice the contrast between him and the person at the top. Dr. Fauci is in it a tough position it is obvious to anyone who has been watching him. He needs to satisfy the president enough to stay in his current role, you know, serving the public but yet he really does want to be honest as much as he is able to be with the American Public about whats going on what i heard from him that i thought was exactly right was the emphasis on process, which is to say being as transparent as possible with the American People about how the Vaccine Development is unfolding, when it will be available, which i think dr. Fauci and mr. Trump have some work to do on on that front but also about just the precautions that are being taken. Dr. Fauci did say he would standby this vaccine but i think americans are understandably having trouble trusting in government right now and in institutions in general so the more transparent these Companies Like moderna and pfizer could be about their process, today they released blueprints about the behind the scenes workings, that will help people trust this vaccine and help us get to a safer place in this country. This trust issue becomes an enormous problem all Public Health is about communication. It is all about trust. Its been screwed up and destroyed from the beginning now we have this remarkable vaccine process that has gone very quickly the way the screw it up is to freak americans out enough that they dont get it so you dont get the benefit of it. Exactly, chris. Im quarantined with a scientist so i have learned a lot more about the vaccine process and the timing of things than i ever thought i would know in my life. And what i have learned is that its not just the transparency but the fact that the open process allows for other scientists to check the work and one of the things that i think is critically important is that the reason why you need reliable science that the government is transparent in giving the information to the public is because without a national and consistent message you basically have individuals making risk calculations okay im going to go do this activity how can i best protect myself and my family . And when you have an individualized process, thats when you get the payouts, which i think what we have now. Thats such a great point in some ways, the theme of americas Coronavirus Response is essentially privatizing the response we had big public interventions during the lockdown and stayathome orders. But everyone has to do their own assessments and its maddening and bewildering. Particularly as we head into the fall, when i asked fauci about the bars, thats a policy thing. Someone has to make that call and not just tell people, well, the bars are open, but dont go to them which is basically what were doing now. Totally one of the things thats been frustrating to me on the ground here in new york is just this notion traveling a little bit this summer, even just in the northeast region some places it is acceptable by Public Health rules to eat inside other places its not. Some places school is open other places its not. And i think the tricky part is we really should be guided by the science about what the science says and because our scientists and our Public Health officials have been sidelined in this process largely and not just in the white house but across the country to varying degrees, because of that, americans have been left to make these individual decisions which makes not only them less safe but their neighbors and anyone they come into contact with so its almost hard to blame somebody for eating inside, for example, in a restaurant even if its not safe. Totally agree. It is allowed in their county. I want to finish with you on just reacting to this olivia troy add but this is a person who is in those meetings every day, left in august. She was there weeks ago. Coming out and saying the president is a heartless and cruel man who only cares about his reelection and has contempt for his supporters and you should vote for joe biden. I have never in my life covering politics seen anything remotely like that. Well, that on the heels of the other ad that was from the department of Homeland Security employee, those go to the heart of essentially joe bidens case for why he should be the president after donald trump but also the fact that donald trump, his moral character, the man to the core doesnt have what it takes to do this particular job at this moment when we need somebody who is going to listen to the scientists and at the very east cares about the health and safety of the americans, his behavior demonstrates, chris, that he does not care because hes putting people in the opposite of circumstances as dr. Fauci laid out are safe inside next to each other without masks. Hes doing that in the face of his own scientists so it is very surprising to see people come out and so quickly turn on the administration but im glad to see it because we need people to do that and continue blowing the whistle so that we know the truth. Yeah. You got a few weeks left to do that zerlina maxwell, great to have you both really appreciate it still to come, what were learning about the doctor allegedly behind a series of hysterectomies allegedly performed on women held endetention facilities when we come back. Weve been bringing you the story of allegations, medical procedures performed on women many without consent at an i. C. E. Detention center in georgia. Now there is a formal inquiry into those the investigation was initiated in part by a whistleblower, a nurse named dawn wooten who spoke with us on tuesday about some of what she heard while she worked at that facility, which is run by a private company. There are now several women that made the same allegations in the whistleblower complaint or at least echoing. One who we spoke to last night, a woman who we are identifying as b said she felt like she had no right to say anything about a hysterectomy she underwent she also told us about how the doctor performed an unexpected vaginal ultrasound that she says she was not prepared for. He wanted to do an ultrasound so what i thought was going to be on top of the stomach ultra sound. But instead, he proceeded with a vaginal ultrasound, i think im saying it right. But i was not aware of that. So you were not prepared for that no, not at all, no. So i feel violated and he just, you know, kept doing the procedure, the ultrasound. Yesterday through his lawyer he sent us this denial we are aware of the whistleblowers allegations as they relate to dr. Amin and vehemently deny him. Dr. Amin is a highly respected physician who has dedicated his adult life to treating the high risk rural population in georgia. But in evacuating at this facility in rural georgia, it is worth taking a look at this 2013 complaint filed against dr. Amin along with others. It alleged that women in a medical facility coowned were given unnecessary medical procedures to get more money out of medicare and medicaid for reimbursement. Many of them were pregnant women. The complaint said they were performing as many procedures as medicare and medicaid would reimburse for. Dr. Amin has a Standing Order that requires that certain tests always be run on pregnant patients without any medical evaluation regardless of her condition. For example, the facility performs an Ob Ultrasound on every pregnant patient without consulting him, the doctor or any other medical opinion. Now having gone through three pregnancies with my wife kate, i can tell you from personal experience it is wildly anomalous to get ultrasounds on every visit. Following a civil false claims suit the department of justice settled with dr. Amin, the Hospital Authority and other doctors involved for 520,000 in 2015 with no finding of fault. Now, we reached out to dr. Amin about this today his lawyers said the case was settled without any admission of liability and that none of the admissions were adjudicated in court. Obviously this does not determine if the current allegations are true it does serve as a useful piece of context to allegations that are so horrific we truly need nothing less than a full, thorough, complete and timely investigation. And we here on our show will be doing our best to make sure that that happens lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the services of the post office plus ups only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again. There are two central strategies to the president s Reelection Campaign if you call it that, cheating and delegitimizing the Election Results ahead of them. Today he was stoking conspiracy thoughts about mail in voting. The biggest threat to the election is probably i think not anything logistical. Those challenges are very real and concerning and were covering them. But the bigger challenge right now is the president s concerted effort to invalidate the results ahead of time if biden wins. And even some former Trump Administration officials are recognizing just how dangerous that is even if they wont come out and stay its the president s fault. Today dan coats wrote an op ed, in the New York Times, the American Democratic experiment is at stake in this election quote, electoral legitimacy is the essential linchpin of our culture. He calls on congress to oversee the election a group of people we can trust im joined now by ian bass, now the executive director of protect dem oxacy, a nonprofi organization formed to prevent american democracy from declining into a more authoritarian form of government ill leave it to you, the viewer, to see how good of a job hes doing this legitimacy question to me is a really powerful and upsetting one. I mean, the president is waging rhetorical war on legitimacy of the election it all seems to me designed to produce a situation in which 40 of the country dont think the election is legitimate how dangerous is that . Well, it is as director coats says the very linchpin of our dem democracy. Right now were at a stage where somewhere close to 60 of americans say they no longer believe in the honesty of the way the electoral process is conducted. But i think there is something more in what director coats is saying you know he doesnt name the president in his op ed not by name but read what he says is the threat he says its either foreign or domestic people that want to say our voting systems are fraudulent, say that the news media is perverting our discourse and that our National Security has been twisted and misuse and President Trump has said that. So President Trumps own director of National Intelligence is calling the president himself a threat to our democracy. The threat to the lynch pin of our culture and calling on some congressional check i thought this idea like will a Bipartisan Commission save us . My answer is usually, no, it will not it just reproduces the problem but in this case i really do worry about which institutions, entities or sources of reputational capital have enough left in the bank after an election to sort of pool and marshal together to have some sense of a rendering of a verdict. I mean, there is bad news and good news. The bad news is i like what director coats is suggesting, but it depends on republicans in congress doing something they have been unable to do, which is put country above party. I wouldnt expect them to do that in the next 46 days the good news is first the founders divided authority for running elections to lots of different institutions around the country, including local election directors who are real nonpartisan experts. The other good news is that at the end of the day, youre right, it is not a Bipartisan Commission that saves the day. The greatest protection for democracy is us participating in it right . All of us go into a place like vote. Org, finding out how to vote earlier by mail in our state and proving that the president is wrong because he believes that everyone in america doesnt count and that every vote shouldnt be counted. And most americans believe that everyone does count and every vote should be counted as we stand together as a nation, that is the greatest protection for our democracy. You know, there is something always with these like dan coats writing this op ed or the john bolton book for this woman cutting this ad today, there is something deeply and profoundly unnerving about people that have worked with the president , that have been in the room and know him best as president issuing these extremely dire warnings. Yeah. It really you couldnt ask for anything more red alarm for the United States of america than the president s own hand picked director of National Intelligence essentially saying, we face threats to our democracy foreign and underscoring domestic and pretty clearly referring to his former boss. You have also got the situation right now. You have these two issues. There is three issues. There is the president undermining legitimacy in advance. Hes doing that every day. Then you have these technical administrative issues that are not nothing, right all these places will be processing probably more mailin ballots than they ever have. They have to put a whole bunch of systems in place. Everyone that worked in a workplace that tried to transfer over to work from home or anything like that, or watching their School System trying to do it, we all know that the pandemic imposes logistical requirements that are difficult. Then you have got the third thing which is like active lawsuits for the president and his allies to make it harder to vote and my worry is that the president essentially uses those last two things, the logistical difficulties and their own lawsuits to turn around and be like, this is a mess i hear people saying its going to be a mess and i think thats helping the president. So a couple things. One, we need to be expecting a couple of things and be ready for them one, it is not going to be Election Night its going to be election week or several weeks there is going to be a long period of counting ballots, and thats totally okay. Second, the system can work if we all go and vote, especially if we go and vote early and flatten the ballot curve, right . We have all learned how to flatten the curve with the pandemic we need to space out voting. We have a lot of early voting. And third we need to expect that the president and his allies are going to pull stunts in the leadup to the election. William barr is signaling hes going to do that the durham investigation, other things that are going to come out. We have to learn our lesson from 2016 when the russians tried to stir up trouble and understand those are stunts that see them for what they are, report them for what they are and do what we think is in the best interest of america and our democracy. Great to hear from you tonight. Thank you so much. Up next, the attorney general of these United States thinking these stay at home orders right up there, number two, behind slavery and that is just the beginning his comments just ahead. Nah. Here . Nope. Here. When the middle of nowhere. Is somewhere. The allnew chevy trailblazer. Im a talking dog. The other issue. Oh. Im scratching like crazy. Youve got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. Apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether its a new or chronic problem. And apoquels treated over 8 million dogs. Nice. And. The talking dog thing . Is it bothering you . No. Itching like a dog is bothering me. Until dogs can speak for themselves, you have to. When allergic itch is a problem, ask for apoquel. Apoquel is for the control of itch associated with allergic dermatitis and the control of Atopic Dermatitis in dogs. Do not use apoquel in dogs less than 12 months old or those with serious infections. Apoquel may increase the chance of developing serious infections and may cause existing parasitic skin infestations or preexisting cancers to worsen. Do not use in breeding, pregnant, or lactating dogs. Most common side effects are vomiting and diarrhea. Feeling better . Im speechless. Thanks for the apoquel. Aw. Thats what friends are for. Ask your veterinarian for apoquel next to you, apoquel is a dogs best friend. The game doesnt end after a spectacular touchdown grab because theres always another team looking to punch one in. With nfl redzone from nfl network on xfinity, you get every touchdown from every game on sunday afternoons. All season long. Watch every breakout star, every heart pounding running attack and every bigtime defensive stop. Sundays were made for football on xfinity. Thats simple, easy, awesome. Add the more sports and entertainment package for nfl redzone. Click, call or visit a store today to learn more. Yesterday michael kaputo who posted this paranoid right wing delusional mog log about the deep state had to take a leave of absence from his job probably because of how unhinged that rant was but the attorney general of the United States william bar was last night giving a performance not that different from kaputos in substance or tone he claimed that National Lockdowns, which again actually never happened there were no National Lock downs. There were state lock downs. He said they were the greatest intrusion on civil liberty since slavery. He said government power completely divorced from politics is tyranny, and so it was right and proper for politics to take a role in prosecutions in the department of justice, and compared career prosecutors to montessori precopr preschoolers and headhunters and wants everybody to know, bill barr has all the power under the law all prosecutorial is invested in the attorney general, and these people are agents of the attorney general and as i say fbi agents, whose agent do you think you are a new echoir piece titled trump is the budding authoritarian, william barr is genuine article. And Charlie Pierce joins me now. Charlie, i love your piece what was your sort of main take away from watching this speech my main take away was at least John Mitchell committed his crimes in private. At least he had the good grace to obstruct justice and meddle in political prosecutions, you know, secretly no, this was a falling and i hate to sound like a civics lesson because we all sound like civic lessons now, but this is fatal to our democratic republic, this kind of attitude. And with michael kaputo, okay its health and human services, you know, thats one thing this is a guy claiming not only federal prosecutorial power but federal Law Enforcement power, you know, whos the fbi work for. And also explicitly saying that its theres this inherent contradiction, right, that is this sort of unresolved contradiction the department of justice and the Law Enforcement capacities of the white house you know, they flow to the white house, they flow to the president democratically like hes the person thats appoints that person, but at the same time it cannot be the case we all sort of agree and John Mitchell in watergate made it explicit. If the president says go prosecute these political enemies of mine that we think thats fine, barr was making the argument last night that was fine yeah, absolutely. Not only was he making the argument that was fine but making the argument thats the way the system was designed, which is crazy hes making the argument that the department of justice should operate purely as a political arm of whatever administration is in power. And im sorry, thats just nuts, okay i dont even know what, you know, the many former u. S. Attorneys and so forth that appear regularly on panel shows think of this. But as a citizen im scared to death. Well, thats how many times weve heard from u. S. Attorneys, former u. S. Attorneys, people that worked in those offices, right, the culture of justice particularly postwatergate, watergate was kind of the trauma here is so powerfully about some degree of independence it doesnt mean going rogue, but it means if you catch a senator taking a bribe and even if he might be an ally of the president you should be making that determination of whether to bring charges without fear or favor. Or if you catch, for example, a National Security advisor getting too cozy with the russians and then lying to the fbi about it that should be something that a now appointed attorney general stays out of weve got to remember this is bill barrs modus operandi going back to the First Bush Administration he was the one that advised bush to pardon all the people who might testify against him regarding the elder bushs involvement in iran contra this is bill barr. Bill barr is a republican lawyer and has been a Republican Attorney general at two times of major scandal. And in both times hes decided to take the side of defending the executive branch rather than defending the American People and the constitution i think, you know, our republican friends when this is all over have to take a long, long look at themselves and try to decide how they created a party that would produce a bill barr over three generations. Final question for you. Theres also the fact hes doing this kind of gaslighting thing hes saying, you know, we cant criminalize politics and its crazy to investigate your political enemies on the day we find out he was trying to find charges on the mayor of seattle and maybe officials in oregon. Yeah, and were still waiting for the Durham Report to say nothing of the fact hes out there doing interviews about how vote my mail is rife with fraud and how were on the road to socialism. This is way out of his portfolio. Charlie pierce, as always great to talk to you good to see you one last thing, so my final question in my interview with dr. Fauci i asked him when we would be able to do things like pick up basketball again dr. Fauci replied by challenging me taa game and said maybe we could do it in the third or Fourth Quarter of this year. That sounded a little too optimistic based on everything he said, dr. Fauci told us he misspoke he meant to say that back to normal, pick up basketball style basketball style normalacy, third or fourth quart of next year, second half of next year which gives me a little more time to get in game shape for him which im sure ill need th i dont know whether i would rather sell beer at that game or whether i would like to be the ref. You can be the ref. I honestly do think im going to take him up on this. It will be like our version of vday. We did it, were done. Thats going to be it. Me and Anthony Fauci playing basketball i am telling you whether or not if i am the ref of that game, you will have to let him win. If i am the ref of that game, you have to let him win. Youll do it im telling you right enthusiasm well done, my friend thank you. And thanks for joings