Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20200823

The country. And cheating to win. Bad news for trump on his taxes and what we now know definitely about his russian collusion. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Im going to be honest. The last four days of the Democratic National convention went a lot better than i thought it was. It was a real open question, right, how a fully Virtual Convention was going to go. Over the last nearly 70 years of televised conventions, there is a predictable program, there is a frame work in place, right . You have a big arena. Its packed with delegates and the press. There are speeches and signs, a lot of pomp and circumstance and the whole thing always, always, always ends with a balloon drop. So you know what it looks like. There is a visual grammar for everyone to use, right . This year, with all that out of the question due to the ongoing pandemic, most of us, myself included, just had no idea what is this thing . Like how do you program a Convention Like this . What would it look like . Would it even be moderately watchable without the crowds and the cheering and of course crucially balloons . Well, as it turned out, it was a lot more than moderately watchable. It was actually and i say this has someone who has to make television every night, compelling from a party trying to stake a claim over a broad majority of the country during a time of unprecedented crisis. And that unprecedented crisis, the plague we all are experiencing loomed over everything this week. It was unforgettable. In every moment precisely because of the remote format and the technology and the social distancing. It was palpable in the strange little pauses before a live speech started as the delay of the signal had to work its way through. And the view of the nearly empty room as Kamala Harris delivered her acceptance speech just a few scattered socially distant reporters in the audience. And in joe bidens speech, the same empty hall with not a single interruption for applause. All of that, every moment of that, was a constant reminder that we are right now in the midst of a once in a century catastrophe and that 176,000 of our fellow americans are dead and more dying every day. And in the words of joe biden last night as he accepted the democratic nomination, it did not have to be this bad. The tragedy of where we are today is it didnt have to be this bad. Just look around. Its not this bad in canada or europe or japan or almost anywhere else in the world. And the president keeps telling us the virus is going to disappear. He keeps waiting for a miracle. Well, i have news for him, no miracle is coming. We lead the world in confirmed cases. We lead the world in deaths. Our economy is in tatters with black, latino, asian american, native American Communities bearing the brunt of it. And after all this time, the president still does not have a plan. Well, i do. Joe bidens performance in that speech is widely recognized even by his opponents and critics as extremely strong. It was by far the best speech of his campaign, the best moment of his campaign so far and people that have watched biden for decades of his career say it could be the best moment of his entire political career. Spanning nearly five decades. Part of what made it so good, so compelling as npr writes is that it was more fire side chat than convention barn burner. A former Vice President spoke directly to the American People without distraction. The speech and the presentation were unadored. It was just joe biden, alone on that stage with some flags and practically alone in the room speaking plainly about the state of the country. And it was very compelling. Last night biden channelled two key themes of his campaign, competency and compassion. He called himself an ally of the light who will set his mind at doing the job and he will do it with a big heart. Of course this is a man who has known unfathomable tragedy and he is able to channel that in a time when the nation is in grief and mourning. Yet, there has been no public recognition of that grief from our current leader. I understand how hard it is to have any hope right now. On this summer night, let me take a moment to speak to those of you who have lost the most. I have some idea how it feels to lose someone you love. I know that deep black hole that opens up in the middle of your chest and you feel like youre being sucked into it. I know how mean and cruel and unfair life can be sometimes. But i have learned two things. First, your loved one may have left this earth, but they will never leave your heart. They will also be with you. You will always hear them. And second, i found the best way through pain and loss and grief is to find purpose. Joe biden provided the country with a Public National moment of mourning, directly addressing the Many Americans who have lost loved ones in this pandemic, sharing his own loss and pain with them. Tonight were seeing the first visuals of a mass memorial with 176,000 lives lost, hundreds of people marching the streets of cities like new york and San Francisco and seattle and san diego on a day when more than a thousand americans died of the coronavirus again. This is the reality of the situation we are in and what we have lost. It does not have to be like this. We can still turn this thing around. And given where things are, that seems as compelling a message for the final stretch of this campaign as ever. Someone that knows joe biden as well as anyone, joe bidens chief of staff for two years when he was the Vice President. A lot of people were impressed by the speech. It seemed true to who the man is. Your reaction to it given the fact that there was quite a bit of pressure on this speech. This is the most high stakes rhetorical moment of this mans very, very long political career. Well, you know, chris, i think people said its the best speech hes ever given. I have heard him give speeches like that before. I think what it was was authentically joe biden speech on the largest stage hes ever had. I think what made last nights speech so different from other speeches was the moment, the crisis were in as a country and the fact that america was looking to see if joe biden is the man to lead us out of those crises. I think at that moment, at this time, i think him being himself, so authentically who he is, talking about the loss we have suffered as a country, talking about his toughness and determination, talking about the side he will choose to go forward with, the side of the light, and then talking about what he would do about these things, i think these were very authentically joe biden ways of talking about things and i think it is what the country is looking for right now. You know, it struck me last night. I had a lot of moments like this throughout the trump years where you watch someone who is a good politician, a practiced politician and seems to be a pretty decent person and just performing the kind of normal ways that a politician does and joe biden is a good politician. The guy has been doing it since he was in his late 20s. Hes done it through decades. There was a story about the rabbi saying he came in. A, thats a testament to who joe biden is but also thats a good politician. Thats a guy who knows what hes doing, right, in terms of representing people. And it just was like from another universe from what we have. I mean, it was such a beal point, but so striking to me in its contrast. Yeah. Look, chris, i think one thing that this convention did all week starting with mrs. Obama the first day and of course particularly dr. Jill biden and then the former president obama and the real people who spoke was just hearing about the kind of person joe biden is. I mean, obviously, hes a well known figure in america. But i heard all week from people, i didnt know that about him. What they heard about is this is a person of enormous compassion, a person that has been through very tough times in his life. It hasnt made him bitter. Its made him reach out to others. Touch others in their loss, touch others in their need. Were living at a time when 170,000 people lost loved ones. But not just losses. The story of braden harrington, the young man who stutters who the Vice President grabbed, you know, on a rope line in New Hampshire and took the time to explain to him how he got over his stutter as a young man. I mean, thats just who he is. Chris, i have known him for 30 years. I have seen joe biden at time and time again when no one is watching do that. What i loved about this week is we have been able to tell those stories to the country at large so they can see why so many of us who know him well love him so much. There is also compassion one of the big themes here and competency. The idea that it didnt have to be this way i found very powerful because i think in some ways one of the things you are running against because i watched this happen. I was on a vacation for a week and sort of checking in. I would look at the covid numbers and it seemed sometimes like the news cycle detached a little. And i would look and say, 1,400 people died today. Oh, my god. And were talking about whatever the sort of news cycle of the day is. Not that that should be the only things people talk about. But selling the American People that we can do better, that we dont have to acclimate this. We dont have to accept this. And there is a universe in which competent people in the country the government, turn this around. Yeah. No question. First of all, to your point, and to the Vice President s point last night, you know, yesterday, the five largest countries in europe, which have collectively the same population as the u. S. Lost 60 people to covid. We lost over a thousand. So there is no reason why it should be different here than there. And, yet, it is vastly different. I think there is a risk that we get a little kind of numb to the loss here of a thousand a day, a thousand a day. More americans have died in the past four months than any four months in u. S. History, including wars. So we cant get numb to that loss. I thought the Vice President was quite articulate and powerful on that point last night. But its also important to remind people, you know, we can do something about this. And joe biden issued warnings about this in january while few others were speaking about it. He issued warnings about it in february. He laid out a comprehensive man in march, months ago, and has updated it periodically throughout the campaign. So he is the man who has the compassion for the moment, but as you say, he also has the plan and the experience in fighting these kinds of crises before thats going to get this country to the other side of it. You know, thats the other thing i thought about the speech last night, chris. It combined this recognition of this awful dark moment were in now but with hope and optimism sebz about our ability as a country to get through this. And i think both those messages are so important. You got to sell people that things can be better than they are. And i think he did a very good job on that last night. We will be checking back with you throughout the next few months. Thank you so much. Thanks, chris. Joining me now for more on what we learned from this years convention. Let me start with you because you have worked in broadcasting and tv. I do, too. I have to say one of the things i found striking about this week was, you know, in most cases, right, you get a genre or format. Someone says it will be an hourlong talk show or you have this many blocks. Youll done a monologue here. The people who ran this thing, no one gave them that. There was nothing. I literally thought to myself, like what the heck does this look like . How do you break it up . And i just thought it was a really i mean, its a benal point, i guess, a production point. But a great job of breaking that up and telling a story briskly. Its not benal at all, chris. Imagine if they hadnt pulled it off. Thats all we would be talking about, what a disaster it was. You know what we can do . We can just wait for the republican convention. To contrasts two. I think there should have been more real speakers. I cant deny the his only preembassiesting condition would be trusting donald. I think the format forced us ul is it. And thats part of the thrust of the message here. And people talked about the roll call, a real traditional, celebrating and what was streaking to me is the Democratic Party there as a. Its the only game in town for a multiracial diverse and you can kind of see the effort in this convention of what that as it. I think both of you are re and that is a really powerful point that we cannot minimize that kale through the pro tux quality, bd i think we tw a that absolutely the multicultural, marginalized people on screen screen talking about their perspectives, talking about their lived experience, folks from immigrants who experienced deportation to folks with disabilities who are speaking to their power, that is just a collective of people that the rnc is incapable of putting together. If nothing else, drawing that distinction was really, really important for the dnc to make, that this is a country that democrats want to see continue instead of continue to erase folks from it as the rnc wants to. Yeah. And i think also when you talk about the rnc next week, i mean, you know, its an interesting situation where you have seen some critiques of the biden speech and others that it was too dark. It wasnt hopeful enough. But when you listen to donald trump, what he gets off on, what he likes talking about is darkness, right . He is still running like hes the challenger. Hes still saying look at whats happening in minneapolis and seattle and if joe biden gets in, thats going to be you. Hes the president now. He doesnt have a hopeful register to go to next week. No, not at all. And thats the problem with the comparison with the 60s where some people with getting worried about this whole backfired protest against the left. The difference was nixon was running against the democrats. Trump is the president and hes presided over the 170,000 dead and the police inflicted violence and the unemployment. Thats a problem for them. Going back to what brittney said, i totally agree of being part of that convention. Not to be too much of a debby downer. In the actual keynote speakers, i think they could have done better. The fact that Michael Bloomberg got three times more time than aoc. The very few latino voices in 2020. Zero muslim voices at a time of heightened muslimphobia. I would like to see more racial diversity and generational. In the long term where are the Democratic Leaders of tomorrow . Most of the keynote speakers were in their 70s. So i think they need to do a lot more thinking about how they represent their party and speak for both marginalized communities and the young and the left and people generationally going forward. Although part of whats interest, brittney, and this has been the case in many conventions i covered is, you know, the convention is the first big general election coming out party for the nominee. My experience has been they are for the consumption of the median swing voter, by and large. That is who they are targeted at. I remember that was the case in many cases in that 08 convention for barack obama. It was the case in 04 at john kerrys convention. It is a strange thing where you are presenting the Democratic Party, but what you are trying to do is speak to a person whose vote you dont already have. Well, i think that we have to recognize, especially coming out of the lessons of 2016 is that the party is going to have to take very seriously the voters who chose not to tune in to the dnc, the people who would literally rather watch anything else. It was important to hear people like Michelle Obama say, look, i dont even like politics like a lot of you and thats just how serious this is. Thats why we need to have these conversations. Thats a good line. But i agree with many. Look, i dont understand. Truly, im still scratching my head on how we saw john kasich and not Julian Castro. Not just because Julian Castro is a latino leader. Because he also represents a progressive wing of the party and the values and viewpoints of a lot of young people and marginalized voters. Those folks need to be brought into the tent, too, and those folks are legitimately asking if you are going to win and feel like you owe that win to the john kasichs of the world, are you going to listen to the needs and concerns of my community when it comes time . These are legitimate questions and i believe that the party has an answer, but they need to make sure that the answers are fundamentally clear because, frankly, we see a lot of effort toward these white middle class swing voters, the mythical white working class, which we continue to erase black and brown people from, but the Democratic Party hasnt won those folks in 50 years. If you expand the base, and we learned this in 2016, if you expand the base and you Pay Attention to those folks who could easily be brought in the party and they are invested early and often that we can actually forge a Clear Pathway to the white house and make sure that we build the habit of voting in broader communities than just the ones were used to addressing. Yeah. I should note reporting today that Julian Castro was offered a speaking spot, which he declined. Just to make that note. Great to have you both. Thank you very much. Next another member of the president s 2016 campaign in handcuffs. The build the wall gofundme that raised more than 25 million and got steve bannon indicted for fraud. That story after this. There she. Turbocharged, right . Yes it is. Jim, could you uh kick the tires . Oh yes. Can you change the color inside the car . Oh sure. How about blue . Thats more cyan but. Jump in the back seat, jim. Act like my kids. How much longer . Exactly how they sound. 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Protects your info and gives you 24 7 peace of mind that if its connected, its protected. Even that that petcamera thingy. Can your internet do that . Xfinity xfi can because its simple, easy, awesome. Get advanced security free with the xfi gateway. Download the xfi app today. Back in december of 2018, an iraq war veteran started a Gofundme Campaign to raise money to privately build a border wall and a bunch of right wing stars including the architect of trumps 2016 Campaign Steve bannon seen here in the oval office quickly signed on to the effort. Even though i got to say it seemed suspect from the get go, indeed reporter initially responded with the following commentary. This almost certainly ends with some dumb fs or a group of dumb fs going to jail. If you think about it for, i dont know, ten seconds, how could this be anything but a con . Like a private group of citizens are going to easily build a border wall for the u. S. . How would they do that . Now, they do claim to have built less than five miles of wall with donations, but the whole thing never made any sense. This is a big public works project. Yet, there were a lot of people willing to open up their wallets. The we build the Wall Campaign raised more than 25 million for a bunch of right wing private citizen hustlers to pay for a wall that according to the president mexico was supposed to pay for. You will never guess what happened next. You probably heard by now. Steve bannon and three other men, including the guy who started the gofundme were indicted and charged with orchestrating a scheme to defraud hundreds of thousands of donors. The indictment alleges bannon himself used nearly a Million Dollars for his personal expenses. He claimed it was part of a scheme to stop the wall. His Court Appearance came after he was taken into custody off the coast of connecticut while aboard a 151 foot super yacht owned by a chinese billionaire. By the way, the indictment alleges the guy that started the whole campaign, the iraq war veteran used donors money to buy himself this boat named the war fighter sailing in a trump boat parade. For more on this absolutely incredible story, im joined by nbc news reporter. Brandy, lets start with this campaign. It was in the periphery of my awareness that bannon was going around the country raising money for this. How do they raise 25 million . Its so silly. Brian is a decorated iraq war veteran. But when he came home, what he did was he started to do his endeavors were stuff like fake news websites. They were far right websites that made people get really mad and then theyd sign up for these petitions that would just really be an email harvesting scheme. Right. And then he also started a gofundme. He did a lot of gofundmes. He did one that paid for his house. He did one where he said he was going to visit places like the Walter Reed Medical Center and meet with veterans but then we called walter reed and he had never been there. He raised 20,000 through that operation. He was always sort of a small time drifter. What he did with we build a wall it was during a time when donald trump couldnt get funding for his wall and he latched on to it, made a gofundme and then it just exploded in a way that i would bet even he was not prepared for. It raised millions and millions of dollars in days and weeks. Soon it was 20 million and was the most successful gofundme ever done. Then he quickly had to say, what am i going to do . And thats when bannon swept in. Right. Thats fascinating. I should note hes a decorated iraq war veteran and triple amputee. So the idea hes raising money for his home at all is not eye raising. There was a certain kind of credibility there that was not insane. By the time you move to this, you are getting 25 million. Bannon sweeps in and heres chris kobach telling everyone the president vouches for him. Take a listen. I was speaking with the president and we were talking about a variety of issues. And the topic came up i mentioned that i was working with we build the wall. And he said, well, you tell the people you are working with that this project has my blessing. And he went further. He said, i want the media to know that this project has my blessing. He was really making a point that he was behind this. I mean, this clearly mattered a lot to them in their fundraising. Of course. And, again, hes a decorated iraq war veteran. A triple amputee. He gave a lot to this country. And that, to me, as a reporter, we were sort of following this. It reached a point where it was like, okay, this guy has had some maybe shady fundraising schemes in his past. You get back and you do what you can to make a living with your family, right . So smalltime grifter and far right. But this is something different. And then if the allegation proved correct, what could have been a successful email harvesting campaign, he could have sold this list of really, you know, eager, hungry, willing to part with their money list to a Political Campaign anywhere, right . But instead, thats the brazen thing to me, is that what happened was just allegedly very obvious campaign to defraud their donors who believed that this decorated iraq war vet was going to take none of their money personally. They said that. And the doj says they just lied and admitted all of it in messages and emails, which blows my mind. Yes. And he was telling people he wouldnt take a penny and getting mad at people on twitter. There is a lot more on this i want to talk about when we next return to this story. But for now, thanks for being with me tonight. Thanks, chris. Coming up, louis dejoy testified before the senate today to answer for his crippling of the post office. Tonight our new reporting on the damage thats already done. 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The president s new postmaster general louis dejoys breaking of the post office has been the top story in the country for weeks now, including the slowing down of mail, the removal of sorting machines, changes to postal worker schedules. And today dejoy testified before a Republicanled Senate committee and it is worth playing out, republicans called him to testify as a preventive measure to let off some steam from anger built up off the country. Today the postmaster general apologized for some things and tried to spin others. The reason the erosion is such a big story, the reason no amount of spin will work is because the Postal Service is an essential part of peoples lives. Its something they rely on. It is either working or its not. We hear at all in have been covering this story for a while and talking to people across the country about this breakdown. A Small Business owner told us it is hurting his business. It used to be a good thing to look at my email because they were sales. Now i swear a third to a half of them must be buyer messages. Its people who havent received their items yet wondering what happened. A long time postal worker told us how the process has changed. Quote, in the past we always strive to get all the mail out. If a particular trailer is not quite loaded with all the mail available yet, we will hold up that driver, make sure all the mail thats available is on that trailer. Now its seal the trailer 30 minutes before departtime. I dont care if there is mail in the docks. This has to be sealed up 30 minutes before departure. And a nearly 20year postal carrier on long island noted the deep importance of the usps to the entire country. Are we a business or are we a service . Are we a moneymaking business now or are we in the constituti constitution, vital to the fabric of this country . That is what real americans impacted by the changes from the post office are telling us here at all in. Its great to have you here. Will the postmaster general undo the damage he has already done. Here with me some one of the senators who grilled the postmaster general on what he has done. Shes a democrat of New Hampshire. Great to have you, senator. First i want to start with this. Whether or not the changes they have instituted are defensible and whether or not the reason that they have instituted them are on the up and up, i dont even understand what they say theyre doing. Do you understand after this hearing today what their own defense of their actions is . Well, heres my takeaway from the hearing today. We have a postmaster general who either doesnt understand the impact of these operational changes he started about a month ago or doesnt care about the impact on real people in my state and all across the country who, as you point out, depend on the Postal Service for everything from getting their medications to getting business supplies or their Social Security checks. And as troubling is that when we presented him with this information, he refused to actually reverse course at all. In my state of New Hampshire, thats particularly concerning. They have removed one of two critical sorting machines from our biggest distribution sorting facility leaving us just one and that broke this week. That delays everything. Hes refusing to reverse course even when we tell him how its impacting people. The other big takeaway was he said they would prioritize election mail as were heading towards election where record numbers of americans will vote by mail. But he had no specifics about how he was going to accomplish this. So it was a concerning hearing to be sure and we just have to keep after him and push as hard as we can. Well, again, the sort of the mixture of malice and incompetence here is a little unclear to me. On the incompetence side, does why is this guy doing this . I mean, what and what experience basis does he have . This is a complex system. This is not a guy thats an expert in logistics or ran fedex, right . Hes just a wealthy donor. Like where does he get off basically i guess is my question . I think were frozen up here. So i cant answer that question other than to say that he seemed to think that this was going to improve operations. That was the excuse he gave. It clearly isnt. The number of contacts my office has received since midjuly about concerns with the post office has just skyrocketed and he just doesnt seem to really confront how critical this service is to all americans, especially in Rural America. So they issued a statement saying, you know, theyre going to stall some of the operational changes. What im hearing is a lot of it isnt being undone. Those mail sorting machines, for examples are arent being put back in. One big question here is about what happens legislatively. There is a house bill that gives 25 billion to usps partly on the thinking that if hes pointing to cost cutting as the reason for these changes then we can give the post office the resources it needs to do its job. The president issued a veto. How important is a statutory fix or a legislative fix here to what were seeing . Well, i support a legislative fix that would suspend the changes hes made and reverse them and invest more money in the United States Postal Service. Such a Critical Service to everybody in america, but particularly people right now during a pandemic and particularly Rural America where, among other things, they may not have reliable access to broad band, for instance. So we need to invest enough and work to make sure that the Postal Service can deliver the way it always has and people can again rely on it for everything from medications to Social Security checks and daily mail and communication. Well, hes going to be before a house hearing on monday, and we will keep our eyes peeled for that. Thank you so much for making a little time for us tonight. Thank you so much for having me. Ahead, how was it the senate was able to find the trumprussia nexus that Robert Mueller couldnt . Jeffrey toobin on the bombshells we learned this week on the Trump Campaign of cheating ahead. Granted. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. mom vo we got a subaru to give him some ato reconnect and be together. And once we did that, we realized his greatest adventure is just beginning. avo male welcome to the most adventurous outback ever. The allnew 2020 subaru outback. Go where love takes you. avo female get 0 apr financing for 63 months on select models during the subaru a lot to love event. Can it one up spaghetti night . Cleaning power of liquid. It sure can. Really . Can it one up breakfast in bed . Yeah, for sure. Thanks, boys. What about that . Uhh, yep it can . 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Earlier this week, a final report on russias sabotage of the 2016 election and found that trump used russia to cheat, including when President Trump directed campaign to stay in touch with roger clone regarding roger stone regarding wikileaks and Hillary Clinton emails. We will talk more about this report in a few minutes. There is also of course the criminal scheme where Michael Cohen ended up going to prison. You remember last year the prison tried to cheat by using the power of his office to extort ukraine into making up dirt on joe bidens family, but he got caught and impeached for that cheating scheme. That was his plan, to try to win the election against joe biden and it didnt work. And now trump is trying to cheat again. He is undermining the Postal Service while demonizing mailin ballots during a pandemic when millions of people want to vote from home. Last night the president plans to use Law Enforcement as poll watchers, a threat called, quote, an old and familiar tactic pulled right from the skrim crjim crow play book and often specifically targeted at black voters and voters of color. From his businesses to his election to his reelection, it is all one story. The russia stuff, the stuff now, donald trump is a cheater. He does not believe in fair play. He does not believe in free and chair elections. Thats why the stakes are so high. Free and Fair Elections are whats on the table. If donald trump is able to cheat his way back into the white house, our democracy is broken, perhaps irreparably. In the air and on soft surfaces. For 45 days. Always have been. And always will be. Never letting anything get in my way. Not the doubts, distractions, or voice in my head. And certainly not arthritis. New voltaren provides powerful arthritis pain relief to help me keep moving. And it can help you too. Feel the joy of movement with voltaren. 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Get fast and easy answers with personalized help 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Change your wifi password to a phrase thats easy to remember. Even troubleshoot your services on your own. Were working to make things a little easier for everyone. Download the xfinity my account app today. Because its friday and because every week right now feels like a year, its easy to lose site of the fact that tuesday a Bipartisan Commission released a report, the Trump Campaign coordinated with agents of the russian plot to sabotage the clinton campaign. There are two huge bombshell revelations. One is that the guy that Paul Manafort was working with labeled in the Senate Report as, quote, russian intelligence offic officer, Mueller Report said ties to russian intelligence, Senate Report released by republicans said hes a russian spy who appeared to be running Paul Manafort as an asset. October 7th, 2016, access Hollywood Tape drops and wikileaks released the emails of john podesta, on a friday. According to the report, no coincidence, didnt look like one. Roger stone told his pal corsi to make it happen. Wanted the podesta stuff to balance the news cycle. And stone told him to have wikileaks drop those emails immediately. It was what it looked like all along. How in the world did Robert Mueller not know that . How are we finding out about it now . Joining me now to talk about it jeffrey toobin, author of true crimes and misdemeanors, which centers on the mueller investigations. That one line in the Senate Intelligence report that says kilimnik is a russian intelligence officer. For years heard ties to russian intelligence, trained by gru. Thats incredible thing to include and not what mueller says. Its not. And im critical of mueller in some respects but there im sympathetic. Intelligence community had access to intelligence, cia, that mueller did not have, its extremely important hes identified as a russian intelligence asset. Its not because mueller didnt look, its just that he wasnt told. But think how important it is. Russian military intelligence is hacking John Podestas email and there is a russian intelligence asset in the intimately involved in the Trump Campaign through manafort. Its an extraordinarily close tie. Its also, i mean whats interesting about your book, it traces muellers approach to this, and one of the things i think that happened was the barr whitewashing followed by barrage of no collusion its all a hoax helped in public perception. And we find out it was exactly what it looked like. Exactly. And the book in many respects is the story of the investigation and muellers story. Mueller dedicated his life to institutions, marine corps, fbi, department of justice and he had a respect for them that i think was admirable in an Old Fashioned way but sort of obsolete. Because he trusted his old friend william barr not to distort what hed found, to release the report as he thought it would be released. And barr completely screwed him to use a technical, legal term. And that is not something that mueller was prepared for. Even today mueller has never spoken out clearly in opposition, even though members of his staff remain livid about how barr treated him. From what ive read of the book, theres almost a kind of allegorical tale there about what happens when you when you kind of have deference and respect and institutional disposition and you go up against donald trump who like doesnt care. Particularly on the issue whether he was going to talk to him, whether they got questions from him. They basically got rolled. They got rolled. Thats one of the areas, the mueller performance was at its worst in the negotiations about the subpoena. But the book opens with the scene, only two times that robert only time that Robert Mueller and donald trump have met, day before mueller is appointed at special counsel, and the two men have some things in common, born in world war ii, brought up in wealth, but theyre like photo negatives of each other. Mueller devoted his life to public service. Donald trump devoted his life to donald trump. Yet the mueller could not adapt or chose not to adapt to the world that donald trump now lives in. And in his failure to confront him over the subpoena, in his failure to say in the Mueller Report just how clear the evidence was that trump committed obstruction of justice, this was the kind of deference to institutions that comes from another time. Well, it comes from another time but to me whats operationalizable about the lesson here, were about to head into what could be theres a wide spectrum of possibility about the future. Could be something on the order of saturday night massacre or worse in terms of the kind of genuine constitutional crisis about how the president reacts to possible loss, what he does about ballots, et cetera. What is the lesson to you about how you deal with confronting this person or attempting to adhere him to some norms . Only thing can be done at this point is defeat him at the ballot box. If he wins, he will view, correctly, i think, as vindication and ratification of everything hes done. And this is what happens with bullies. Everybody remembers the july 24th july 25th proximity. Mueller testifies poorly before congress and trump is emboldened to lean on president of ukraine the next day to get dirt on joe biden. Thats right. If he wins reelection, this is how Foreign Policy is going to work in a second term, its going to be all about what foreign leaders and countries can do for trump personally, not for the national interest. Yeah. That time proximity, which i knew and had kind of forgotten briefly, great reminder. Jeffrey toobin, thanks for coming on tonight. All righty, pal, good to talk to you. What he was trying to do was protect his family. Thats all he ever wanted to do. Even when the man was dying thats what he was doing. A quiet family night at home shattered by intruders. A devoted father and husband dead. He kept saying, they killed him. Someone murdered her husband but left her alive and that left police suspicious. Was it possible she was involved h