Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20200218

Plus, is Michael Bloomberg about to make his first debate stage in nevada . And on this president s day this is the crap we have to put up with. A look at how the decisions candidates make can shape generations to come. Man, im going to fight for working people. Come on, man. All in starts now. Good evening from washington, d. C. Im joy reid, in for chris hayes. Well, it has now been approximately one year since donald trump got his roy cohn. One year and three days since bill barr was sworn in for his second stint as attorney general of the United States. The department of justice is supposed to be nonpartisan. Thats foundational to our entire system of democracy. But during his second time around, the d. O. J. Has been deeply partisan under attorney general barr. In just one year, barr has lied about the contents of the Mueller Report to spin it trumps way. He backed trumps absurd claim that the government had spied on the trump campaign. And he forced justice officials to defy congressional subpoenas tied to trump investigations. Not to mention the fact he has been going after trumps enemies one by one by targeting them in deeply politicized investigations. And that was just a warm up. Just this month we found out that bill barr personally intervened to overrule federal prosecutors in their sentencing recommendation for trump buddy roger stone who was convicted of lying to congress in order to help trump. That was the last straw for many former justice officials of all political stripes. More than 2000 have now signed onto a letter circulated by the group protect democracy, calling on barr to resign. In the letter, more than 2,000 former Justice Department officials agree that barrs behavior is a grave threat to the Fair Administration of justice, and that a person should not be given special treatment in a criminal prosecution because theyre a close political ally of the president. They add, governments that use the enormous power of Law Enforcement to punish their enemies and reward their allies are not constitutional republics. They are uh to autocacys. They have called for a meeting to address concerns of the intervention of Justice Department officials and trump into politically sensitive cases. Meanwhile, we keep getting new revelations about barr doing trumps bidding. Cnn is reporting over the weekend that barr tried to block the u. S. Prosecution of a turkish bank after the president of turkey asked trump to intervene. Then there is the Rudy Giuliani situation. Late friday the Washington Post revealed that federal prosecutors are continuing to contact witnesses and collect documents in their investigation into giuliani and his efforts in ukraine. But even though the Justice Department is currently investigating giuliani, barr has created an intake process to funnel the dirt that giuliani is peddling about the bidens directly into the d. O. J. It doesnt exactly give you a lot of faith barr is overseeing an honest investigation into one of trumps most loyal allies. But thats just how bill barr does business. And my next guest daniel ayer who was Deputy Attorney general under george h. W. Bush and worked with barr in the d. O. J. Has had enough. In the atlantic title, bill barr must resign, ayer writes, the fundamental problem is that barr does not believe in the central tenet of our system of government that no person is above the law. Bill barrs america is not a place that anyone, including trump voters, should want to go. It is a Banana Republic where all are subject to the whims of a dictatorial president and his henchmen. Joining me is former Deputy Attorney solicitor general and Deputy Attorney general donald ayer. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I told you during the break i read your letter, it frightened me, but im glad you wrote it. The thing you presume about a attorney general of the United States is they understand their job is to be the attorney of the people. It has been very clear from the very beginning that mr. Barr believes hes Donald Trumps personal, sort of the hand of the king. You called what he has tried to do unamerican. Right. Can you explain why you say that . Well, i do. I think the one thing that i think we can all agree on and i think certainly people in this generation since watergate when our Justice System really was reformed in some pretty significant ways have taken for granted the idea that you can count on the system of justice and its going to be fair and its going to be impartial and its not going to be politically influenced. And the reality is and we know this from all the things youve mentioned and some other things hes done. We also know it from things hes said in great detail. He duds not believe that the president should be above the law im sorry. He doesnt believe the president should have to play by the same rules as everybody else. Right. He believes the president should be above the law. And he made that the clearest in a memo he wrote back before he was attorney general in june of 2018 when he wrote a memo, it seemed some people have said maybe he was trying out to be attorney general. But he wrote a long memo arguing that the Mueller Investigation at that time was totally unsound and shouldnt be going forward. And the center piece of his argument was that constitutionally the president has total control over all processes of the executive branch, including the processes of the Justice Department and criminal investigation. So any idea that the president had obstructed justice while president is a nonstarter because the president , he said, literally has the complete power to control all criminal investigations, including investigations of himself. So, one of the ironies that i found is that the president s own statements in recent days when hes talking about, i have the right to interfere, all he is doing is quoting what bill barr has told him. Yeah. And so i think that fundamental tenet is not consistent with what i think pretty much all americans believed to be true, and the real problem is he is getting to try and hes making Real Progress on carrying it out. Thats whats scary. Hes called the cover up general. The conservative called him that during the George Herbert walker bush years when he was pushing mr. Bush to pardon people who were implicated in the iran contra affair. So he had these tendencies going all the way back. What you are describing and his speech he gave to the Heritage Foundation describes someone who is essentially a monarchist. What would be the difference between donald trump and essentially the leader of a Banana Republic if he can prosecute all the president s enemies, if he can undo the investigation into the russia gate by saying ill just put people in jail for trying to find out if russia was helping him, and if he can let Donald Trumps friends off the hook. Whats the difference between that and a king . There may not be very much. I think the important thing to realize and why hes making so much progress is hes doing it piecemeal. And so youre seeing a drip, drip, drip. Youre seeing an event that occurs and it seems odd. You know, when he did the whitewashing of the Mueller Report right. A lot of people said, gee, that doesnt seem right. But it was just the one thing. Then we got the report and looked at it. A lot of people said hey, you know, there is a lot of evidence of obstruction. Gee, thats a shame. Mueller had written a letter about it saying that wasnt quite accurate. And you wait awhile. Then the next thing comes along and its a series of things, and theyre not all the same. So a lot of the things his Justice Department has done have been in the nature of office of Legal Counsel opinions that are justifying stonewalling, capitol hill, stonewalling traditional requests for witnesses to appear, request for documents to be provided, sort of an ironclad refusal to do it across the board and writing legal opinions to justify it. You know, refusing to turnover the president s tax returns, even though theres a statute saying the congress be has a right to have them. Sure. A lot of these things seem odd. A lot of people arent paying attention to some of them. They accrue a month later, two months later, something else. If you dont focus on the whole picture, hes not standing out and giving a speech saying, i want a king. Hes actually just implementing a step at a time. Very quickly, he isnt going to resign. He is wielding more power than any attorney general has wielded. Donald trump has the inclination to be a king, and so he wants this kind of a. G. Do you believe that there should be that if massive amounts of people begin resigning from the department of justice, that might be the one thing that might make a difference here . Because he isnt going to resign. Well, you know, i dont know. I mean, i think everybody has to do what they feel right in their conscience, and, you know, im a citizen and ive watched this for a while. I reached the point where i cant stand to watch and say nothing. I think people have got to stand up and act in good faith to assert what they believe. I believe that he should resign. I believe that if enough people in the country stand up and believe that he should resign, he might resign. It might become politically untenable for the president 20678 to have as an attorney general someone who is enabling a system of government. If enough people learn what theyre doing, theyre creating a system in which the president can be a dictator. Thats what theyre doing. Bill barr would never admit to it. He wrote in the memo that the president is above the law and can control all criminal investigations. And hes argued vociferously for all these policies that, you know, he doesnt even want the courts to play a significant role. No one can stop him because in his mind, i do believe he does want a dictator. He seems to. Donald ayer, thank you for being here today. Now i want to turn to former u. S. District judge nancy ge rtn er, paul george, among many calling for barr to resign. If he doesnt, what can be done . So, there could be oversight hearings by the house judiciary committee. They could subpoena barr and have him come in and explain why he is enacting policies that benefit the president s friends and punish the president s enemies. So why is he ordering a doover on investigations that clear the president s enemies and why is he directing prosecutions against people who trump sees as his enemy. There is a concern that if things carry on, we might be drifting towards political prosecutions. Joy, were there right now. The president is ordering and the attorney general is implementing investigations on behalf of the president that are inconsistent with the rule of law. And you had, ms. Judge ge rtn er, i should say, donald trump get on twitter and ask why hasnt person x been prosecuted, and names people in his twitter account. Its hard to have any faith that william barr wont just turn around and prosecute them. What happens if donald trump decides to find ways to use his executive power to go after whoever the nominee is, to say this person is a criminal, they should be investigated, they should be in jail. Thats what happened in the congo or used to happen in the congo or other states. What could stop that . Presumably barr would be the one to stop him, but hes obviously not interested. What happened the past week is not just the fact of barrs interference, but the way that he did it. You know, you have to step back and say its not unusual for main justice to call up the prosecutor and say, maybe you should soften the recommendation. The memo, the way he did it, a shot across the bough, im in charge, and youre not. In addition to what paul is talking about, there could be impeachment proceedings. There could be impeachment proceedings against barr. I think weve been down this road against trump, but there could be impeachment proceedings against barr for basically doing what he said he wouldnt do, which is enact political interference in prosecutions. But the problem, paul, is that even if william barr, bill barr was impeached by the house, republicans are in on this as well. They have also decided that the president is essentially a king. So if you have Donald Trumps Political Party in control of the senate, they will never convict any republican or any member of this administration. And you have william barr who will not enforce subpoenas, who has said that the president is essentially above the law, he doesnt have to be doesnt have to listen to courts, doesnt have to listen to congressional subpoenas, what is the check, then, on this kpe executive . There is no check. Under the constitution, attorney generals may be impeached just like the president. Good luck with that. We saw what happened with president trump. And so donald trump wants to be a dictator whether its ideological or political, bill barr is enabling him. And the concerns are that the stakes are extremely high. Barr claimed last week that trumps tweets and interference make it difficult for him to do his job. Well, trump has continued to tweet and interfere. I think when barr complained last week all he was saying was when he takes directions from trump, he wants it to be on the downlow so its not as obvious and blatant that what he is doing is acting in a corrupt way to enable the president s own venality, his own obstruction and his own, again, assistance, erosion of democracy. And let me play for you, judge gertner, senator Kamala Harris questioning barr. Mr. Barr, has the president asked you to open an investigation against anyone . I wouldnt yes or no . Could you repeat that question . I will repeat it. Has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone, yes or no, please, sir . Um, the president or anybody else. Seems youd remember Something Like that and be able to tell us. Yeah, but im trying to grapple with the word suggest. I mean, there have been discussions of matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation, but perhaps they suggested . I dont know. I wouldnt say suggest. Hinted . I dont know. Inferred . You dont know . Okay. Judge gertner, that sounds like someone trying not to per ger perjure himself. Could he be subject to criminal liability in a next administration, should that next president decide to investigate him . You know, he could be. The question is her question was a little bit he was playing around with her question the way witnesses sometimes do, you know. She said suggested, anybody in the administration. He certainly he could be the question is whether the question was clear enough. But someone has, has reported recently, the president doesnt any longer have to direct him to do anything. Barr knows what the president wants. And so even with respect to what just happened in the roger stone case, barr insisted that he had not been directed by trump to do anything with respect to that recommendation. I dont i mean, that could well be the case, but he understood the significance of a heavy sentence on roger stone and he was going to act accordingly. So whether that, you know, back and forth would lead to impeachment is a question. He was clearly accepting direction from the president , thats an entirely different one. The only adjective left out by the senator that might have caught him was tweeted. Maybe someone tweeted to him he ought to investigate people. He clearly takes directions from president trumps twitter feed. Nancy and paul, thank you for being here. Up next, the most infamous leaker of the Trump Administration. The hunt for anonymous and who is leading the charge. Thats in two minutes. Its time for the ultimate sleep number event on the sleep number 360 smart bed. Can it help keep me asleep . Absolutely, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. Save 50 on the sleep number 360 limited Edition Smart bed. 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A few days after a senior official in his administration published an oped in the new york times, parts of an active part of an inhouse version of the resistance, about a year later that same anonymous author published a book a warning. At the time the white house mocked the book. But we now know that since the start of the president s impeachment, donald trump has been obsessively trying to find out the identity of the author. The daily beast is reporting today that the president tasked his point man on trade. Peter navarro with uncovering anonymous. Quote, people familiar with navarros efforts said he had zeroed in on one likely suspect and compiled information in the report which he has shared with Pat Cipollone who is leading internal efforts to unearth anonymouss identity. Joining me is coauthor of the report, White House Reporter for the daily beast. Owe author of a book, sinking in the swamp, how millions and miss fits poisoned washington. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Lets start with the weird choice. Why is the trade guy searching for the leaker . It is unclear if trump specifically tasked Peter Navarro with this. What we do know based on our reporting is starting at least during the impeachment process, Peter Navarro who is trumps top trade guy in the administration, hes not a private investigator who is tasked with figuring things out in the administration or anything like that. But he took it upon himself to conduct his own little personal investigation into figuring out who this mysterious anonymous is, which is a question thats, of course, bedevilled trump and the administration for about a year and a half how. And in doing so, he has gone about his investigation with forensic linguistic analysis into the writings of anonymous and basically trying to pair that with matching language of other public figures, some of whom, of course, ended up working in the Trump Administration. And in this process, he went about compiling this written officiallooking report. Again, this is basically on his free time. This is not a function of Trump Administration trade policy, of course. So he has compiled this report. Its unclear to us at this point if he has shared it directly with the president. But he has shared it with the white house, his counsels office, specifically white House Counsel Pat Cipollone who in a an official capacity is leading the charge figuring out who this man or woman is. Yeah. So, this gets at the heart of how trumps top lieutenants, even if their Job Description has nothing to do with the sort, have enlisted themselves or been enlisted in figuring out who this what they would probably call a snitch is in their midst. Yeah. And im glad you put it that way because there is a certain sense donald trump is running with a maf mafioso, sycophant. Donald trump claimed he was going to root out the swamp when he came to washington. When he first got here he arrived trying to bring in rnc type people, the Reince Priebus types. He soon got rid of those, the paul ryan folks. Those are all gone. Now he seems to be sort of cherrypicking people he sees on tv like his trade rep who he got off television or people that hes seen on fox or cnbc. Where is he getting these people and are they actually technically qualified for the jobs theyre doing for the most part . Well, some of them are and some of them arent. Youre right. The more sycophantic you are to donald trump, the higher chances you are of surviving in his inner sanctum. We call it in the book the autocratic game show personality cult. Im sorry, as comical as that may sound, is a perfectly apt description of how to survive in Donald Trumps within trump world. To go back to your earlier point about the mafioso, to go to the premise of the book, fund abilitially enough, the inspiration for the premise of the book was itself mafiaso literature. Wise guide by reporter nicolas palegi was the model for the book. It wasnt any piece of political nonfix. It was about as told through the eye of the foot soldier henry hill. We went about trying to find as many henry hills in trump world as we could and tell the story of donald trump and his presidency from the worms eye view up. And what you find is that, a, you have to unless youre related to him because thats another great way to get a job in the administration. One way to get in. The other way, you have to praise him, you know, in sort of almost ridiculous manner and prostrate yourself in front of him. Once youve done enough sucking up, then hell let you into the circle. Did you find when you were looking at these figures that they genuinely respect donald trump or that theyre doing it in much the way people believe like Lindsey Graham is doing it in exchange for power and proximity to power . Totally. And even republicans who came into the Trump Administration or ended up excuse me, buddying up to the president in the way Lindsey Graham did who obviously was no fan of his during the election in the republican primary. There is a certain aspect where theyre doing it for policy ends. And then there are others who, um, actually do buy into the maga agenda and trumpism. I think its a misstated downplay the support he has in official washington. Yeah. But its all quite a game show and sounds like a really good read. Congratulations on the book. Its called sinking in the swamp. How trumps minions poisoned washington. Get yourself some water, appreciate it. Ahead, the democratic president ial race heads to nevada where early voting sees huge turner vote out and what that means, coming up. Proof i can fight psoriatic arthritis. With humira. Proof of less joint pain. And clearer skin in psa. 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We have been talking about the letter signed by more than 2,000 former Justice Department officials of both Political Parties calling on attorney general barr to resign. Do you join their calls for his resignation . Absolutely positively. This has been the most the greatest abuse of power i have ever seen at the hands of this president who has no, no sense of decency or understanding of the constitution. Former vicepresident joe biden spoke with Nicolle Wallace today. Besides calling on attorney general bill barr to resign, he also talked about the race for the democratic nomination. Are you ready to take on Mike Bloombergs money in the super tuesday states should you win in South Carolina . Well, the answer is any one of those states from North Carolina to georgia to the whole range of them have significant minority populations. And right now that poling data shows im doing incredibly well in all those states, including texas and florida as it relates to the primary. But also as it relates to the general election. Thats an important point. While a lot of people have been quick to pronounce the Biden Campaign over, the reality is his campaign is no more dead than senator elizabeth warrens because almost no one has voted yet. As lovely as they are, they are not representative of the democratic party, almost entirely dependent of people of color. We dont know if joe biden is viable yet until those voters have their say. One of those states has already started voting. The nevada caucus is coming up. Well talk about it next. Do you recall, not long ago we would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun all we needed somebody to lean on the new xc90 plugin hybrid electric. Xc90. Recharged. Save up to 65 off top mattress brands. Mattress markdowns event now through february 24th. 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And non24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442142424. The next contest in the race for the democratic nomination is this saturday in nevada. It is a caucus, but early voting kicked off this weekend, and so caucus goers have already started heading to the polls. John ralston, editor of the nevada independent who closely follows this tweeted, 50 of voters on saturday were firsttime caucus goers which means they did not participate in 2008 or 16 caucuses. That would seem to indicate it would approach or surpass 2008 levels by the end of the day saturday. John ralston is here with me along with natalia salvado, with the Progressive Group that has endorsed Bernie Sanders. Thank you for being with me. John, can you please explain to me how this caucus has early voting . How does that work . How much time do you have, joy . Lets see. Not enough. Explain it quick. So, the dnc mandated this cycle that they had to expand access. So the Nevada Democratic party chose to do that by having four days of early voting starting the weekend before the actual caucus day. Now, it is somewhat complicated. I dont want to get in the weeds, and they havent explained all of it yet, by the way. But basically, all of these votes, you have to choose at least three candidates when you go to vote in these four days. And those results are going to be transferred to the correct precincts, we hope, on saturday to establish viability. You have to get to 15 viability to continue forward in a caucus. So it was done to expand access. And so far, by the way, joy, it appears to, you mentioned the large turnout, 26,000 people in the first two days. Can we just confirm, john, that they are not using that app that they used in iowa . No. In fact, i think the word app has been banned in nevada completely, joy. They are using, they are using something akin to a calculator. Theyve called it a tool, but dont call it a app. You know what they used to use, paper and pencil. If somethings wrong, you can fix it. Lets get you both in here. Natalia, your guy, your candidate, at least in the latest polling is leading. Senator sanders is at 35 , warren 16. Buttigieg 15 and it goes on from there. The fight with the Largest Union in the state, the Culinary Workers Union did not seem like a wise political move. Do you believe that the Sanders Campaign has that under control and have their fans under control regarding, you know, reaching out in negative ways to those Union Members . Yeah, i think that for me, just being on the ground here in nevada, one of the things that has been so telling for me, spending time with make the road nevada, and going out and talking with people at the doors. I ran into someone by the name of Angelica Romero and shes also a Culinary Union member as well as a make the vote member. She said shes voting for sanders. She said she believes in medicare for all. I think at the end of the day what we dont want to do is pit union member versus nonunion member. Ultimately the union decided to not endorse in the primary and their members are going to go out and theyre going to vote their conscience. And theyre not going to just vote for their plan. Theyre going to vote for their spouses. Theyre going to vote for their families. Theyre going to vote for their neighborhoods. Theyre going to vote for the community. And what is best for the body at large. John, that sometimes is a conflict, right . You may have a union member whose kids really love sanders, but who also like the plan the union spent five years getting for them and may say they dont want to vote for a president who is going to remove it and replace it with Government Health care. That doesnt seem like such an easy decision in some families. I think thats right. And i think that anecdote that you just heard is i picked that up as well, and the sanders folks are pretty confident, joy, that they have some support inside the Culinary Union among the rank and file. Listen, some of this is unfair to Bernie Sanders. He didnt pick a fight with the Culinary Union as much as some of his very extreme supporters, and i keep saying this, joy. Theyre not the majority of Bernie Sanders supporters, but they got very upset. Yeah, youre sighing, too. I hear it, youre sighing. You and i talked about this four years ago, remember, after the state convention ended in chaos. But some of these folks are really out of control. And after the culinary said that Bernie Sanders was going to end their health care, they went berserk on social media, which is their hobby, right, joy, or maybe this is their job. And so then the Culinary Union does not believe that Bernie Sanders has done enough to disassociate, to condemn what his supporters have done. Theyre upset about it, but they did not turn that anger into an endorsement of joe biden, which i think joe biden hoped for. That could have really made an impact in this race. They did not do that. And i do think that some Union Members are conflicted because they do like Bernie Sanders, but they love their health care. The culinary here negotiated Amazing Health care for its members with the casinos here. Lets talk about i know you have a candidate you prefer, natalia. What has been the on the ground presence in general . Are these candidates pouring attention on nevada the way they did iowa and New Hampshire . I mean, my general sense is that, yes, i think that people, moderates like bloomberg have bucket loads of money and they are willing to burn through it. Are there a lot of bloomberg ads on tv . Ive seen a lot of bloomberg everywhere. Now, ive been in three different cities in the past, like 72 hours. So i cant recall exactly where i saw the last bloomberg ad, but i think i saw it everywhere. Pete buttiegieg its constantly playing, joy. You know, tom steyer, pete buttiegieg, were seeing the money being poured in. Unfortunately for them, i think when it comes to my community that makes up 30 of the electorate here, that is only going to take you so far. We very much believe in the sort of humantohuman touch. As i like to say gente y gente. We like to know the source of the information and look at someone in the eyes and know what were getting, the information that theyre giving us. I think the Bernie Campaign has gone in deep and found latinos on the ground who are not just speaking the literal language. Theyre not only speaking spanish, but theyre speaking to the issues that our Community Cares about. All right. We shall see what happens. John ralston, natalia salgado, thank you very much. Still to come on this president s day, a look at one of the most important decisions a candidate has to make, picking their running mate. That is next. H hiv, keep being you. And ask your doctor about biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in certain adults. Its not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to and stay undetectable. Thats when the amount of virus is so low it cant be measured by a lab test. Research shows people who take hiv treatment every day and get to and stay undetectabe can no longer transmit hiv through sex. Serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. Rare, lifethreatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. Do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. Tell your doctor about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. 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Being a great president has a lot of components. Its about the tone they set for the country. Its about projecting American Leadership around the world. Most importantly, however, its about the decisions the decisions that president s make that make a greet presideat pre. In a year we are choosing a candidate for president and choosing a president we are thinking about, one of the ways of judging the president is by the decisions they make, namely, who they name as their running mate. Thats one of those decisions that doesnt seem to matter much until it really, really matters. Which brings us to mr. Lincoln. His first vicepresident was a guy hanible hamlin. He was not against making president s listen to congressional subpoenas or obey the laws. Hamlin was so hard core that he not only wanted to emancipate enslaved africans, he wanted to arm them for the civil war. But lincoln who made some great decisions in his six years as president made one really, really bad one. He dropped hanibel hamlin when he ran for reelection in 1864 and chose this guy, Andrew Johnson. The tennessee senator and former governor who was pro union, but very much antiracial equality. Lincoln swapped him in as vp to help himself with southern voters. Then he was assassinated a year after the election. And then Andrew Johnson became the president. And he proceeded to defy the radical Republican Congress who were trying to vindicate the 600,000 plus deaths in the civil war. Not to mention lincolns death. By doing things like passing the first Civil Rights Act of 1866, which president johnson vetoed. The Congress Also passed a law saying the president could not fire the secretary of war, who was in charge of the union troops who were occupying the south to protect the formerly enslaved. Andrew johnson promptly fired him anyway and got impeached. Its hard not to wonder on this president s day how history might have played out if lincoln had not made the worst decision of his presidency and hanibel hamlin had become the 17th president instead of Andrew Johnson. When can he come back, the daunting task the primary electorate is facing in trying to beat donald trump. Hey you know, i do think its weird youve started commuting when you work from home. Ill be in my office. Download audible and start every day off right. Othroughout the country for the past twelve years, mr. Michael bloomberg is here. Vo leadership in action. Mayor bloomberg and president obama worked together in the fight for gun safety laws, to improve education, and to develop innovative ways to help teens gain the skills needed to find good jobs. Obama at a time when washington is divided in old ideological battles he shows us what can be achieved when we bring people together to seek pragmatic solutions. Bloomberg im Mike Bloomberg and i approve this message. How we worship, or who we love. And the 2020 census is how that great promise is kept. Because this is the count that informs where hundreds of billions in funding will go each year for things like education, healthcare, and programs that touch us all. Shape your future. Start here. Learn more at 2020census. Gov today former president barack obama just might have found a way to troll the current president with his tweet. 11 years ago today near the bottom of the worst recession in generations, i signed the recovery act, paving the way for more than a decade of Economic Growth and the longest streak of job creation in american history. Which the president deserves the credit for the economy . Donald trump hasnt yet responded to that, but he did mark president s day with a simple happy president s day. Oops, he inserted an apostrophe before the s which could be the sign of a guy who did not listen to his teachers in expensive private school or maybe he thinks todays holiday is just all about him. Meanwhile democratic primary voters appear to be far more preoccupied about how to decide who the next president should be, and what qualities they should be looking for in a nominee to ensure that donald trump is a oneterm president. Joining me now to help guide us through that is blair kelly, an associate professor of history at North Carolina State University and david jolly, former Republican Congressman in florida and msnbc political analyst. Professor, im going to you first, professor kelly. People are stressed. Everywhere that weve gone, myself and my producers, people are freaking out trying to decide how do i pick, what kind of a person do i need to pick in order to make them president and clean up the mess trump is making. How would you advise somebody who is afraid . So fear is an interesting motivator. You know, thinking back to the obama election, hope was the theme of so many people at that time, a vision for something different, something that would be possible. This time i think were in a very different place, but we have a lot of folks who are still in that space of hope, who are still imagining what might be possible. And then you have other folks who are too fearful to hope, right . Really worried about what the odds are on any given candidate. As a historian of the africanamerican experience, it makes me think about africanamerican voters through the years, since they had the right to vote in the american south. Many generations of people had to vote for the lesser of two evils, or the person they figured would best meet their goals, but not ever match their ideological outlook. And so i think america might be in that place of, you know, coming out of a hard time and really trying to figure out who is the closest who can win. David jolly, i think thats a really good point. Africanamerican voters have been voting for president s who are demonstrable erasists. Woodrow wilson was not a fan. But going to the 20th century, most of these president s were not great promoters of racial equality or fairness or very few. So does the rest of the electorate need to become sort of clinical as black voters have been and say just vote for somebody who can get elected and somebody whos reasonable enough to deal with once theyre there and not always look for the kind of hope you got with obama . Clinical is an interesting term you use there, joy, because im not sure i would express it exactly that way. But i would say recognize the context in which were going into this election and how donald trump has intentionally tried to create the anxiety that were feeling because as an American People we are stronger than the anxiety that hes injecting upon the november election. What i mean by that is donald trump often leads with two tactics, disinformation and division. And we know that disinformation, you use the obama jobs tweet, if you will. We know that jobs under obama were created annually at a higher clip than donald trump, but he would tell his voters and the nation otherwise. Gary kasparov has said the point of disinformation isnt to manipulate the truth, its to exhaust your critical thinking. To exhaust your critical thinking. Thats what were experiencing as voters. He also relies on division. I had a colleague that heard trump say have you ever seen the nation so divided . The colleague said no, i havent. Trump said i love it that way. This is the currency that hes peddling at political strategy but its not one we have to accept. We dont have to accept the anxiety that comes with trumps disinformation and division. Professor kelly, i think there is anxiety and there is Division Even on the democratic side, despite what davids saying being true. You talked about black households. You have a lot of households, like my godmothers household where she is saying we need the pragmatism of joe biden, i feel comfortable with him, i know him, he rode with barack obama and i trust him. His grandkids are saying, no, you have to vote for Bernie Sanders because they want to flip the tables and turn the economy upside down because they dont think theres a hope they can have what she has economically. How are people dealing with those intergenerational fights even within you talk about the black community, thats one thats there. Yes, absolutely. I think in my intergenerational household i have an obama kid. A kid that went with me and sat on her dads shoulders, talking about yes, we can, at age 4 who really loved andrew yang, who really was like whats possible, whats different. Shes intrigued by sanders, shes intrigued by a new possibility, because thats the world she grew up in. And then you have the older people in my family who are not so sure. They were like we tried hillary clinton. The electorate maybe doesnt like women. Maybe thats not a safe thing to do in this election. And so and i think i sort of fall somewhere in between in that spectrum. And so whats possible even across a black household is complicated in this election season, and i think a lot of people are completely and honestly torn. Yeah, absolutely. And, david, how does Michael Bloomberg then disrupt and complicate this . Because he is somebody who all of his positions other than on guns and Climate Change are republican positions. The things hes talked about in the past would be perfectly fine had he run as a republican. He might have actually been more of a disrupter and more of a threat to donald trump than if he ran as a democrat. How does he factor in in your view . Yeah, look, democrats have a tough decision to make between sanders, klobuchar, mayor pete, bloomberg and biden perhaps. Im a never trumper but not a democrat. Its my place as a never trumper to support who they nominate so i want to make that very clear. I will share an observation and it does have to do with the issue of race that i think is critical. To my democratic friends, dont lose sight of the chief owe fern offender in donald trump. Joe biden got hit on his actions for the crime bill. Mayor pete for dismissing the Law Enforcement officer. Bloomberg for stop and frisk. You know what all four of those people have in common . They apologized, said hold me accountable, i want to do better and work with communities of color. The person who hasnt apologized is donald trump, who had the central park five, and had to settle for a discrimination lawsuit. Focus on him and dont tear down your own candidates that could be a fatal blow to the democratic nominee. No matter who you nominate, they aint that. Blair kelly, david jolly, thank you very much. That is all for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. I hit the number exactly. 9 00 00. Fantastic, joy, thank you very much. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Happy president s day. Super happy to have you here. Today i learned a new thing. Just to show you that sometimes it is worth coming to work on a federal holiday, today at work i learned that theres a thing called the federal judges association. I had no idea. Federal judges have a group that is independent of the government, independent of the judiciary, but there are like more than a thousand