Live from studio 6in rockefeller plaza, all in starts right now. Hello. How are we doing . Hello. How are you . Thank you. It is great to be back here at our home in 30 rock. Were not even three weeks into the formal impeachment inquiry. Were already in the star witness phase. Today in defiance of donald trump, in defiance of the state department, in defiance of mike pompeo, this woman just wrapped up over nine hours of testifying before the house investigative committee. Yes, thats a long time. Her name is Marie Yovanovitch. Now shes a career diplomat, has multiple foreign postings, and shes also the former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine. Shes the one and you may have sort of seen this when the call came out, right, shes the one the president kind of threatened infamously in the call with the ukrainian president. Remember that part . That part. Its kind of weird. Its kind of gross frankly, talking about how bad his ambassador is to the president of ukraine. He says shes going to go through some things. She already loster had job earlier this year. She was recalled as u. S. Ambassador to ukraine. Basically it appears because she stood in the way of the corrupt shadow Foreign Policy that the president and his bag man, Rudy Giuliani, had cooked up. So, she was an obstacle to their scheme to coerce a Foreign Government into manufacturing dirt on a political rival. She was sent back to washington, d. C. Arubruptly. I think you can tell the story of this scandal and the whole trump era of story of two archetypes. All right. The bag man, Rudy Giuliani, and the Civil Servant, Marie Yovanovitch. So, the Civil Servant shows up to talk to the house investigating committee. She is still lets be clear, she is still an employee of the state department. Okay. Her livelihood, her paychecks every other week come from the state department. At the last minute, the state Department Said you cannot show up. She showed up and said here i am, fire me. And Marie Yovanovitch, the Civil Servant, put here career as a diplomat and Civil Service officer on the line. She did it because she wanted to come and deliver a message to the committees about the way that donald trump is corrupting the american government. She told the committee today there was a campaign of disinformation that was waged against her, and that that campaign worked. She was abruptly recalled, told to come back to washington, quote, on the next plane. She was told by her boss, the number two at state department, she had not done anything wrong. This was not like other situations. Thats a quote which is surely the case. She even said that Rudy Giulianis buddies, the guys that were just arrested, remember them . They probably saw her as an obstacle and wanted her upushed out because they wanted to make money in ukraine and of course she was standing in the way. She was referencing these two guys that were arrested yesterday trying to flea the country hours after having lunch with Rudy Giuliani at the trump hotel. A weird set of events. Marie yovanovitch had an entire campaign waged against her because she stood in the way of this coming to light. Shes a Civil Servant based on her testimony and people that work with her views her role as serving the American People and not donald trump himself. Someone that i know someone that i know, a source who worked with her in official capacity said this to me. Never ever said a cruel word or a wrong thing, just the perfect example of a public servant. So, in this story, she stands in, i think, for a kind of person in our government and in our Political Community that is the enemy of trumpism. Its a kind of person that trumpism must destroy in order to triumph. Shes a publish servant who views her duty as doing the best she can for the country she serves which is true from the overwhelming people in the Civil Servant. They are really on the whole some of them are good and some are bad and some are in between. But on the whole theyre people trying to represent the interests of the United States of america, not the man who happens to be okccupying the white house which is a distinction. And the thing is trumpism cannot see that distinction, right . Trumpism cannot deal with those kinds of people because trump itch is all about subverted the country and the publics interest, the public trust, all of us to the whims of the man, donald trump. Trumpism cannot be implemented by Civil Servants. Doesnt work. Trumpism can only be implemented by lack kis and by bag men. Bag men like Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani who, by the way, does not work for the u. S. Government. He does not draw a government salary. He has no official role in american Foreign Policy. He answers to one person. That is donald trump. Donald trump has annoyed him personally to do his bidding. He is Michael Cohen 2. 0. Before he had Rudy Giuliani its true. Before he had Rudy Giuliani, trump and Michael Cohen, and Michael Cohen was the hush man, the bag man, took care of real estate deals and keeping things out of the newspaper. Now Michael Cohen is in prison so hes got Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani, hes not really his attorney in any real sense. Hes not writing legal briefs that are going before courts. The president has real lawyers to do that. Believe me. Hes in court a lot. The lawyers take care of that. Rudy giuliani is just a fixer with a law degree. And hes apparently been tasked with a Clear Mission by the president which is to manufacture dirt on my political enemy so i can get reelected. Instead of running a Foreign Policy for the people of the country that represents our collective interest, donald trump and Rudy Giuliani are running and have been running a shadow Foreign Policy that has nothing to do with the interest of the United States. I mean, that is basically what donald trump told the president of ukraine. Right there. Clear as day in the white house call notes they released. After he said i would like you to do us a favor though. The key part of that phone call, the ask, the ask. He goes on to tell the ukrainian president that he has to talk to rudy, basically saying rudys great, highly respected guy, great guy, mayor, hes my guy, give him a call, talk to rudy. Talk to rudy. Donald trump brought up rudy on that call multiple times because jami was his guy unaring his scheme. And that scheme started well before the call. We know that now. If you go back and look through months before the call, the shadow Foreign Policy is all right there in front of us. Rudy giuliani is running point to pull off the scheme and hes got to get rid of the person in his way who is the Civil ServantMarie Yovanovitch. She takes her job seriously as ambassador to ukraine. Rudy and his associates, what do they got to do . Theyve got to get rid of her. They start a Crazy Campaign against her. Enlist allies to talk about how bad she is. For instance, heres the president s son who color me crazy is not super into which members are posted to which lowal kas. Suddenly don jr. Has a strong opinion and calling for her removal. Where does that come from . Rudy giuliani is whispering in everybodys ears on how they need the dirt on the political enemies and have to get rid of Marie Yovanovitch. He puts together this crazy propaganda folder of conspiracy theories attacking Marie Yovanovitch and the bidens and sends it to the state department in this weird envelope with weird calligraphy. He did this. He admitted to it. That makes it sort of seem like it game from the white house as the return address, just the white house. And the intent clearly is to give them the message that this is coming from the president. It is coming from the president because its coming from the president s bag man. Circulate this around. Know who this person is. Rudys job is to run the entire corrupt policy for donald trump, coerce a foreign nation, occupy foreign nation, manufacture dirt on his political opponent. That was his mission, his goal. Heres the thing. That is not an american goal, right . It is directly counter to american interests. The Public National interest, our interests collectively as citizens, republican, democrat, conservative, liberal, all of us together, our interest is for american interests to be decided by americans. Not by some ukrainian prosecutor. Donald trumps interest, his particular interest, is for Foreign Countries to interfere on his behalf like they did in 2016. Thats in his interest. And so that is what Rudy Giuliani did. And now as the sheer scope of this thing keeps getting bigger and bigger, they are all desperate to cover it up. But the problem is there are more Marie Yovanovitchs out there. Believe me. There are dozens of people in the government who really do view their duty to be the country is not to donald trump and it is just a matter of time for them to come forward like the first whistleblower did and now the second. There is only one bag man, and he gosh, i dont know what his future holds. But there are many Civil Servants like Marie Yovanovitch who are not afraid to stand up and to tell the truth. My first guest just returned from a trip to ukraine, congressman John Gary Mandy from california. Its good to have you, congressman. You got back. What was it like to go there under these circumstances . Well, it was kind of weird. First of all, we did have another Civil Servant there, mr. Taylor, ambassador taylor, and he made it very, very clear that something was very much amiss. So, weve seen two examples here, yovanovitch and taylor, two ambassadors who stood up to the president and said no, to, were not going to let that happen. So, we had that going. We also met with an Extraordinary Group of people, the minister of defense, the minister of foreign affairs, young, aggressive, determined to end the corruption, and determined to build a democracy and push russia out of their country. It was thrilling in many ways. It was also on the edge of the seat because a lot of things were going on. Bill taylor is the chief of mission there right now. He replaced yovanovitch. Hes a Career Foreign Service officer. He shows up in the texts last week. Hes the one saying i think its crazy to withhold military assistance to help a Political Campaign on the record, right . Exactly. Did he confirm to you that he owrote those ex thes, that that is him. We step off the bus to meet him outside the ministry of defense and turn to him and one of my colleagues said that was some sort of text, good for you. He said, yes, yes, it was. It was just at that very, very moment the news broke as we stepped off the bus. And he did confirm that yes, he did that. He didnt go into further detail but i can assure you he should be one of the witnesses before that same committee. Once again a Civil Servant standing up to power and saying mr. President , youre out of line. Were not going to put up with it. Theres another theres another individual whos going to testify, we think, before this committee again. The white house has been trying to shut people down. Fiona hill, she was the russia specialist at the nfc. Its our understanding hes going to lay bare the kind of parallel Foreign Policy. Is that your understanding as well . Thats what i understand. Ive actually had the experience of questioning her in the Armed Services committee, and she is going to be one extraordinary witness. She flows her stuff. She knows whats going on. And shes going to speak the truth to power. Do you think that they were close to getting away with this scheme . I mean, it strikes me that had the whistleblower not collected the worries of people that work with him in the white house, had the whistleblower complaint not come forward and been pushed out by congress that they may have just squeezed the ukrainians that theyre looking into the bidens. I think thats probably exactly what would have happened. And because that was what the president was trying to do, that is to throw his oath of office out the window, take care of himself and his reelection, break the law at least two different laws are probably broken here Campaign Finance and probably a bribery law. All of that came to light because, once again, a Civil Servant out there in one of the agencies, probably one of the intelligence agencies, said this is wrong, blew the whistle. Interestingly enough, it was done not my him or herself, but there are others that obviously were part of it. And now a second whistleblower. This is going to unravel very, very quickly on the president because hes done wrong and hes been found out. You have been a longtime supporter of impeachment. Youre a democrat. Youre in california. You also have another position i think is interesting which is that you think it would be good if the house took a vote now as some sort of resolution calling to officially inaugurate the impeachment inquiry. Its something that was done under bill clinton. It was done near the beginning of the impeachment. Nancy pelosi is holding off. Why do you think thats a good idea . Well, i think it gives more power to all that were doing. Its more formalized, more power. Its obviously full vote of the house. I think i may be out there pretty much by myself right now you are. There are republicans that agree with you. Afraid so. But you think that that would formalize it or it would grant some legitimacy to the process, more teeth to it . Well, the process that we have now is legitimate. The rules of the house are right in line with what were doing with the four committees that are carrying on the investigations. All of this is legitimate. Its by the book. Its just that i think one more thing could be added to it and shut down the republicans and the president and say okay you wanted a vote . Here it is. I dont think thats going to happen, at least not right away. All right, John Garamendi from california, thank you for making time tonight. Thank you. We return, the situation in syria is deteriorating right now. Were going to go live to talk to Richard Engel who is reporting from the region. Do not go anywhere. As a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. At liberty butchemel. Cut. Liberty mu. Line . Cut. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Cut. Liberty m. Am i allowed to riff . What if i come out of the water . Liberty biberty. Cut. Well dub it. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Hi. Maria ramirez mom maria Maria Ramirez. Mcdonalds is committing 150 Million Dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs. Prof Maria Ramirez mom and dad Maria Ramirez to help more employees achieve their dreams. Mom and dad Maria Ramirez introducing new Vicks Vapopatch easy to wear with soothing vicks vapors for her, for you, for the whole family. New Vicks Vapopatch. Breathe easy. To the wait did frowe just winners. Prouders everyone uses their phone differently. Thats why Xfinity Mobile lets you design your own data. Now you can share it between lines. Mix with unlimited, and switch it up at anytime so you only pay for what you need. Its a different kind of Wireless Network designed to save you money. Save up to 400 a year on your wireless bill. Plus get 250 back when you buy an eligible phone. Call, click, or visit a store today. Tonight the situation on the border between turkey and syria is deteriorating as Turkish Forces. U. S. Troops in the vicinity came under artillery fire from turkish positions. The explosion occurred within a few husbandred meters outside t zone in an area known by the turks to have u. S. Forces present. That rejects the claim they opened observation post. This adds of course a dangerous and tense new dynamic to an already very tense situation. We go now to Northern Syria. Nbc news chief Foreign CorrespondentRichard Engel is on the ground and joins us live. Richard, what do you know . What have you seen or heard about u. S. Forces being possibly in the way of at risk as the turkish assault continues . Reporter so, u. S. Forces, their location was fired on. Multiple artillery shells landed near their base. We were told that the American Forces were not injured, were not hurt or killed. But they heard these explosions. They had to pull back for their own safety, and they immediately complained to the turks, hey, this is too close, dont do this. And the turks said, in a statement, we did not target the americans. We were targeting the kurds. And the problem is the kurds and the americans for this last four years have been working together. They have been colocated in many situations. So, the americans said they were almost hit and the turks said, well, we didnt try to hit you. We tried to hit your terrorist friends. And that is the problem here. The american troops have been put in an incredibly uncomfortable situation, untenable situation, and for some of them they believe an immoral situation. There are still a thousand u. S. Troops in this country. People keep talking about american troops being pulled out, being pulled back, there are a thousand troops here. For the last four years, these troops were working with the kurds. They were fighting against isis. They were incredibly effective in destroying the isis state. And the reward that their partners got, the kurds, was to have President Trump order american troops to pull back. And when President Trump gave the green light to turkey, the Turkish Forces invaded and now the american troops have to watch their allies under attack and now themselves. They are getting shells fired right next to their base. The reason that i said that President Trump gave the green light to this assault even though the president and secretary of state pompeo continue to dispute this, it is obvious that this happened. It is in black and white. It is a white house statement. You can go right now to the whi whitehouse. Gov and find it. After this phone call, the white house issued a statement that said the turks will soon be carrying out their military invasion. U. S. Troops will be pulling back and u. S. Troops will not be in the way. And lo and behold, thats exactly what happened. U. S. Troops pulled back, the turks invaded, and now the kurdish allies are getting killed and about 100,000 of them have had to escape the border area and flee for their lives. Youve been reporting on this war for years and youve done incredible reporting in this area specifically which is a remarkable site of a battle. What is it like to watch this army and these people that have given their lives and their blood and everything to defeat isis now find themselves under shelling and bombing from the other side, from the turks . Reporter its obviously a terrible betrayal. It is a stain on American History to have an ally that is then betrayed. But then the real frightening part is this could just be the beginning. The kurds are deeply concerned that this isnt just a campaign by turkey against the kurds because the turks dont like the kurds and theyre punishing them somehow. The turks believe that this is going to be a longterm campaign, and they want to settle this area. So, the kurds that weve been talking to say they are soon going to face a campaign of genocide, a campaign of ethnic cleansing that President Trump gave the green light to. And there is a demographic factor that is very important here. So, in the spirit of the way youve been laying out things, let me just lay this out because i think you need to understand this framework to understand this context. There are about 2 million kurds right here in Northern Syria where i am. With the American Protection over the last four years as theyve been fighting isis, these 2 million kurds have created a little state, and it has been hugely successful, one of the most stable places in the middle east. And theyve had this immense friendship with the americans. And the kurds have been growing more and more confident as theyve been getting more and more stable. Towns were opening up and flourishing. Just across the border in turkey, there are roughly 12 million kurds. For a long time theyve been complaining they are treated as second class citizens. There have been uprising staged by the kurds in turkey, and turkey has been very concerned that if there is a successful kurdish enclave in Northern Syria that it will inspire the 12 million kurds inside their country to rise up. Its not just that theyre attacking this enclave to destroy it. Turkey has a plan to move arab refugees from inside turkey and settle them here, settle them on top of this enclave, 1 to 3 Million People displacing the kurds. Thats why the kurds are so panicked. Theyre fighting not just against the turks. Theyre fighting for their own existence. Its not just a betrayal that they worked so hard with the americans. They said donald trump with this order has opened the door to possible ethnic cleansing. Like i said, already 100,000 of them are on the move. That was the explanation ive heard of this entire situation in this week of coverage. Thank you so much for joining us live from syria tonight. I really appreciate it. Richard, i should note, has a documentary airing this sunday, on assignment, trump ukraine fact and fiction airs this sunday. Just how much trouble is Rudy Giuliani in . Next. Xt aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. honk i hear you sister. Thats why im partnering with cigna to remind you to go in for your annual checkup, and be open with your doctor about anything you feel physically and emotionally. But now cigna has a plan that can help everyone see stress differently. Just find a period of time to unwind. A location to destress. An activity to enjoy. Or the name of someone to talk to. To create a plan that works for you, visit cigna. Com mystressplan. Cigna. Together, all the way. Visit cigna. Com mystressplan. I get to select my room from the floor plan. When i book at hilton. Com free wifi. And the price match guarantee. So with hilton there is no catch. Yeah the only catch is im never leaving. No im serious, i live here now. Book at hilton. Com and get the hilton price match guarantee. Excuse me. Uh. Do you mind. Being a motour . What could be better than being a motour . The real question is. Do you mind not being a motour . I do. For those who were born to ride, theres progressive. I do. In the human brain, billions of nefor people with parkinsons, some neurons change their tune, causing uncontrollable tremors. Now, abbott technology can target those exact neurons. Restoring control and harmony, once thought to belost forever. The most personal technology is technology with the power to change your life. Yesterday we had the first indictments of the impeachment era, two Men Associates of the president s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, igor fruman and neve parnas were nabbed as they were trying to leave the country. There is Ongoing Investigation including looking at Rudy Giuliani himself which sounds not great for rudy. Where does this go from here . I want to bring in legal experts, people that understand the ins and outs and the dons constitutional underpinning. Amy rocha who is herself a attorney for the Southern District of new york. And melissa marie, professor at miu school of law. Shes also host of the podcast against the Supreme Court. As someone who worked at the Southern District, i was just so fascinated by the timing of all this and what it means. What is your reaction to this big arrest being announced right at this moment and its proximity to Rudy Giuliani . First of all, it sounds like from the reporting that sdny had to take this down. Theyre investigating people, have alerts that come up when someone is buying a oneway ticket out of town. It sounds like the timing was dictated by that. This is not an indictment they threw together over night. They would have had to goo to a grand jury. If youre arresting someone on the fly, you do it by complaint, not indictment. This has clearly been an Ongoing Investigation for a while which were hearing now about giuliani being in their sites himself. I thought that was evidence even from the paper yesterday. I mean, hes his names nowhere on there but hes like the elephant in the room, right . Hes because we know not only is he just friends with these guys, these are the guys he was using for that, you know, rooting out corruption scene he was doing over at the ukraine. So, theres going to be a big connecting the dots here. And i will say that on the one hand its going to be frustrating for us because we may not hear about those connections for a while because now were back in a grand jury investigation mode. But i have a lot of faith that this Southern District can connect those dots. And theres a question about the political independence here. One of the things that was striking to me is you have geoff berman, the u. S. Attorney down there. Hes an appointee of trump, although sort of court, complicated. Hes doing his thing knowing he nabbed two associates who were representing lawyers of the president s legal team. Don forget who his boss is, attorney general barr. I loved your opening because you took giuliani down like a cheap pup tent. Just stating the facts plainly. Lets pivot to barr. I think he becomes intensely interesting at this moment because first of all, think back to the call. Trump to president zelenski. As you said in the opening, get with my man, rudy. He also said get with my attorney general bill barr. Thats my other man. Lets put ourselves in bill barrs shoes for a minute. Uncomfortable place to be. Yes. Well take those shoes off, wash our feet, and be fine when this is all done. If youre bill barr and you see the summary of that phone call, you now have either been outed for being part of a dirty deal that trump had with the ukraine if in fact you were part of it or if you werent part of it, youve been accused of something that is horrific, an abuse of office, and impeachable offense. And for barr, perhaps a crime. Barrs got tough decisions to make. All of a sudden, what do we see . Barr approves an indictment and arrest of some giuliani associates. I think barrs going to have some really difficult decisions to make. You know, its also barrs department of justice that has been arguing on behalf of the Trump Administration in federal courts where they have been losing over and over. I mean, today is a remarkable day. They lost three cases today. No, in one day, three big cases. They lost a in the d. C. Circuit court, they lost two to one appellate case about whether the president s Financial Firm has to hand over his tax returns to congress. They lost a District Court case about a new rule in which they want immigrants to have to certify they wont be a public charge, meaning they can pay for their health insurance. And they lost another District Court over the wall emergency. Is this normal for a administration to lose this much. Can i go to glens points, maga, making attorneys get attorneys. Nice. I love it, i love it. Its been a blistering day for the Trump Administration on the judicial front. So, there were three really important cases. The d. C. Circuit case where judges both ruled that the administration had to comply with the subpoenas from congress. The only person to dissent on the threejudge panel was naomi row, a trump appointee, former member of the federalist society. Took Brett Kavanaughs seat. Really took his seat. So, again, thats they were very clear in their decision that the president is not above the law. And one of the things that was really interesting is that all of this is happening with the impeachment inquiry in the background. But the court did not mention that. This was simply a case of the president exceeding his authority, just basic authority, and overriding congresss Constitutional Authority to conduct oversight. So, that was a huge loss. The other loss was the public charge issue. So, the Trump Administration has promulgated this regulation that says were not going to allow immigrants to come to this country if they are likely to be a public charge. And they expand the rule from being someone on public assistance to anyone who might be in receipt of medicaid, who might receive food stamps, a much broader interpretation. Millions and millions of people. Millions and millions of people. The most crabbed and ungenerous interpretation of the immigration laws weve seen in a generation. And a federal judge said no. Yeah. Like absolutely not. Then you have the border wall down in el paso. Judge saying this is excess of president ial authority to divert funds to build a wall. So, they have been losing lite of arguments. Theyve been making a lot of crazy arguments in court, the department of justice, a arguments that a lot of lawyers say thats a bad argument, sometimes taking their name off. This is from a profile stephen miller. His argument is that judges are not making decisions based on facts so theres no point trying to win a political fight with a legal fight. Just try to get to the Supreme Court as soon as possible. Do you other feel like doj is essentially like we dont care, were going to make maximal arguments and we can count to five votes oen the Supreme Court. Its interesting because trial lawyers, lawyers who are going to litigate in court always say bring your best case to court. Right. And part of why trump keeps losing. You want to have your best set of facts to make law. Thats how you make good law for your clients. The Trump Administration is bringing all these cases not with good facts and having to take really extreme positions. You also on top of the three cases you mentioned, we had judge saying no, no, you cant stop a state District Attorney from subpoenaing thats right. Thats how the week started. Right. And that was a pretty blistering, the president is not a king was that opinion. So, i think on the one hand, yes, that must be what theyre counting on because no one would that and running out the clock because no one would think youre actually going to win on the merits in these cases unless you have just full on trump appointees who arent following the law. Theres also unaring out the clock which has been successful for the president in his past civilian life. You dont pay someone for 10,000 and youre in court forever long and how long is someone willing to wait to get to 10,000. That worked with some of the subpoenas. He sort of done the same ting had to congress. They have no support able legal positions. They have nothing but an attempt to run out the clock. Ive been saying that the state of our judiciary is strong and i think it remains strong. And i think when Supreme Court gets ahold of cases that deals with the balance of power, theyre typically very reluctant to give over power to the executive branch. I still have confidence in our Supreme Court that when they get these things they will largely do the right thing. That is what hangs over all this. When you talk about the trump judge today. And i dont want to be overly political like she wrote an opinion that was her legal reasoning on this. Im not going to say it was in bad faith and cynical, but there is fear, i think, of some that you basically do have a gorsuch and kavanaugh provided majority. And when the nixon tapes get to the Supreme Court are you confident that case is going to be judged with integrity and on the merits. This has got to be what chief Justice John Roberts literally stays up at night thinking about. Everyone perceives this court, whether because of the blistering confirmation battle or everything thats come sense with the census case and the gerrymandering case, everyone in the public assumes there is perhaps some political maneuvering going on on this court. And thats the last thing that chief Justice Roberts wants. He wants this court to be above the from a. We are going into an election cycle. He does not want the court to appear to be enmeshed in dirty politics. Thats whats going to occupy him. I think hes going to be the pivotal case on the court. Its going to be hard to avoid. Thank you so much for being here tonight. Up next, a look at how lackey online conspiracy theories made their way through the president s brain and into official u. S. Policy. Dont go anywhere. Its tough to quit smoking cold turkey. So chantix can help you quit slow turkey. 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And now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. One of the most disturbing parts of Donald Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine which has gottenless attention is that one of the things the president does is ask the ukrainian president to investigate a completely insane conspiracy thaer ri that basically goes like this. The dnc worked with eukraine to hack itself and then frame russia is one of many baseless conspiracies that bubbled up on the right. And are taking over Rudy Giuliani and right tv. Jane mayer has a great article on this. Joining me now is the great jane mayer, chief washington correspondent. You wrote a piece this week about the sort of origins of this story that has worked its way through media and the mind of donald trump and into that phone call. Where does this start, the story about the bidens being running some corrupt operation in ukraine . Well, what interested me was it started to some extent in the same place where a lot of the conspiracy theories started for the 2016 campaign. There is a Dark Money Group called the Government Accountability institute which looks like a charity, but its actu actually a nonprofit thats filled with money from one of the largest Trump Supporters, robert mercer, a hedge fund manager. And it exists to create Opposition Research that they can get into the main stream media. Thats where a lot of this began. Robert mercer was a funder of steve bannon and Cambridge Analytica and runs this. Theres a guy that works for this innocuous sounding institute named spiethPeter Schweitzer. What did he do in 2016 . He wrote a brook called clinton cash. Its a book that basically tried to frame Hillary Clinton as corrupt and taking its so complicated. This is another thing that conspiracy theories, theyre so complicated that nobody with a normal sort of mind can check all the details. And a lot of them are foreign because the Hillary Clinton thing was also is about uranium one which uranium sale, yes. Uranium sales and russia and putin. Youre sitting at your desk thinking how am i ever going to check this and you really hardly can. So, it started so, there was this book clinton cash, and it was created with the help of steve bannon and this Trump Supporters money and Peter Schweitzer who wrote it to get the story into the main stream press. And it did hit the front page of the New York Times. It parters with the New York Times. They got an exclusive look at the book. The times is very touchy about this. They are saying we made no deals. All i can tell you is in 2015, the year as the election was yearing up, they mentioned the book on the front page and referred to the story that basically made Hillary Clinton look like she was selling Americas National security in exchange for money for the clinton foundation. Yes, and basically this narrative gets set about the clinton shady donors and shady money and dealings. And repeated often on the campaign trail by donald trump, boosted by the book. And one of the points you make in your piece is they are running the exact same play. Its the literal same play. Its groundhog day. Im looking at this story and trying to trace back where its coming from. Im thinking oh no, we have seen this movie before, and the press no better capable of screening for it because were really not set up to screen out disinformation. And one of the things i have to say is a work of genius on the part of bannon and the Government Accountability institute, they realized that reporters were skeptical of spin but they like dirt on pubic will figures. So, they took a look at biden. Were coming into this election now and youve got a president who has his own corruption issues. And so what do they do . They look for a way to make the democrat look corrupt. And bidens son is indeed involved in this wheeling and dealing in the ukraine that seams pretty seamy in a lot of ways. Its not great. No. But what the Conspiracy Theory develops is that the Vice President is the one whos going to investigated. And thats not true. No. In fact, it is literally the opposite of the truth. Its the opposite, exactly. The prosecutor had already put aside this case. In fact, he was being called afire by the entire world because he was not investing prosecution. Multiple reporters said, you dont understand, joe biden getting rid of this guy was if anything going to put his son at risk. It would be more likely his son would end up on the wrong side of the investigation if they got rid of this guy. It was literally the opposite of the conflict they are alleging against. But for two years you have these republican conservative operatives pushing this fake Conspiracy Theory. And you can watch and see how it is like a game of telephone. It gets worse and worse and worse and somewhere along the way comes Rudy Giuliani. And when he gets into it, it gets all over fox. And when its all over fox, it gets directly into the president s brain. And then hes convinced that this that phony Conspiracy Theory is real. And that hes using the american state to pursue it and investigate it. Exactly. So they kind of snookered themselves at the end of the day. Whats fascinating to me is i think for a long time there was a bifurcation in the media where the folks like the president and politicos would read the New York Times and the wall street journal and the base would watch fox news and listen to rush limbaugh. But the members of Congress Just watch fox all day. I think they largely believe a lot of it. You can see it is an incredible danger. Not just for the United States, but also even in a weird way for the president himself, because he got caught up in his own echo chamber on this thing. The next thing you know, hes on the phone with the president of ukraine trying to use leverage to get him to go along with a story that the president of ukraine knows isnt true. Right. And its a disaster. Right. And he may get himself impeached over this. You have written a lot and researched a lot on dark money and the way that dark money moves. I was thinking about president obama after Citizens United gave this speech famously condemning it with Justice Alito sitting in the front row shaking his head when he condemned it. And one of the things he says there is this is going to open the flood gates of the possibility of foreign money coming into elections. Go back and look at that speech now, that looks pretty prophetic. That is exactly when he said no. The idea there would be foreign money. This is foreign money coming in. There is an fec case that involved the two friends of rudys who have for setting up a straw donor and putting what looks like foreign money directly into u. S. Elections. Totally against the law. Totally against the law. But done through vehicles where you cant track it. And thats the problem with dark money. You cant see where its coming through from. I mean, it is built that way. You have also done a lot of reporting on the Vice President as well, profiled him. It is fascinating to watch him try to navigate this. Because he is he is directly implicated. He was the one who was sent to of send messages to zelensky. We know that. He said he talked about corruption, which we know what thats a code word for. Yet, he also is trying to distance himself from the actual sort of abuse of authority that we saw in the phone call. He has said that he didnt know what the corruption thing was about exactly. Oh, he was just carrying a message. He was just carrying a message. Somebody said that up until this point hes been the Vice President who wears asbestos underwear. Everybody else is catching on fire, but somehow hes managed not. I think its getting hot, though. Yes. [ applause ] he actually had one of his top staffers listening to the phone call with zelensky on july 25th. So what people have been wondering about is though the Vice President was not on the phone call himself, there would have been a transcript available that would have gone to the Vice President s office. Soon after that on september 1st, the Vice President went to warsaw and met with zelensky. Did he not look at the transcript of the phone call before he met with him . Right. And right now he has to essentially plead ignorance, is that right . Thats what hes saying. It is the better of the two options. You have seen him also just completely unable to give any kind of accounting. One of our own reporters pressed him i thought quite well. At a rope line at an event he did with joni ernst. He just wont answer the question. Like did you know the president wanted them to open an investigation on the bidens. He cannot answer that question. It is obviously very uncomfortable for him. But its interesting to think about if he when you think back on nixon, it wasnt just the president who went down. It was his Vice President , too, ahead of him that went down. It could create an opening at the top that would be difficult and interesting. Yeah. Thats an understatement. Jane mayer who is in town tonight is part of the new yorker festival, which should be a fascinating conversation. Thank you for being here tonight. Thank you. [ applause ] dont go anywhere. Rachel maddow is coming up. I cant believe it. What . That our new house is haunted by casper the friendly ghost . Hey jill hey kurt movies . Ill get snacks no, i cant believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on our Car Insurance with geico. I got snacks ohhh, i got popcorn, i got caramel corn, i got kettle corn. Am i chewing too loud . Believe it geico could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. Pain happens. Saturdays happen. Aleve it. Aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Do you recall, not long ago we would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on you have the support of a probiotic and the gastroenterologists who developed it. Align helps to soothe your occasional digestive upsets, 24 7 with a strain of bacteria you cant get anywhere else. You could say align puts the pro in probiotic. So, where you go, the pro goes. Go with align, the pros in digestive health. And try align gummies, with prebiotics and probiotics to help support digestive health. Thank you all for joining us tonight. Torch at home and here with me, we will be back here next week. And then im headed for you, los angeles. I will do a live reporting of my podcast, why is this happening. That is happening monday, october 21st. Tickets available now. You can buy yours at msnbc. Com. That does it for us. The Rachel Maddow show begins now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, chris. Thanks, my friends. I love these live shows. So great. Thanks to you at home. Happy friday. Wow. What a day. I mean, when the white house released the phone call that has led to these impeachment proceedings against President Trump, when they released the call of President Trump speaking with the ukrainian president about how President Trump wanted that Foreign Government to do investigations for him, wanted to do him a favor and give him something he might be able to use against the democrats and joe biden in 2020, the most amazing thing about the release of that transcript, of course, was just the fact that the white house released that transcript. Right . I mean the whistleblower