Election sabotage. Do you feel vindicated in the mueller investigation. What is in the indictment. Russians recruited and paid real americans to engage in political activities. And why whats not in the indictment could mean big trouble for the president. No puppet no, puppet. Youre the puppet. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Robert mueller just revealed again weve only scratched the surface of what he and his team discovered about the 2016 election. He charged 13 russian nationals with interfering in the American American political process through what they caused information warfare. While various aspects have been reported by the press in dribs and drabs, the indictment lays out the full picture in extraordinary detail. It traces the different phases of the operation beginning way back in 2014 and continuing through election day. What it reveals is a highly sophisticated well fund and integrated enterprise. Effectively a Third Campaign. A Third Campaign controlled by a kremlin ally that worked against one of the candidates, Hillary Clinton, and ultimately backed her opponent, the man who is now president of the United States. According to the indictment, the operation began four years ago long before election with intensive studies of different political groups active on social media. In june of 2014, two defendants travelled to the u. S. Stopping in nevada, california, new mexico, colorado, illinois, michigan, louisiana, texas and new york to gather intelligence. Later, the alleged conspirators commonly referreded to targeting purple states. The defendants working out of a russian troll farm called the Internet Research agency went on to create group pages looked like they were run by americans. Some efforts have been previously exposed like groups like secured border, twitter handles like 10 gop which i myself had retweeted at one point. We didnt just how professionalized those efforts were. With socalled specialists divided into day shift and nightshift hours instructed to make posts in accordance with the appropriate u. S. Time zone. Like any sophisticated digital operation, they tracked the size of the online audiences reached through posts, different types of inengage the, changes in audience size all reported up the chain. In an internal review, the account specialist for the page was criticized for having a low number of posts dedicated to criticizing Hillary Clinton and told it was imperative to criticize her in different post. They took their activities offline organizing actual political rallies in the u. S. , coordinating with unwitting is activists and Trump Campaign staff and paid people to show up at events in costume like this guy spotted by a reporter outside a trump rally in pennsylvania a month before the election. Dont let the governmentrun media elect crooked hillary. In the laughter half of 2016, these russian operatives used fake american accounts to push conspiracy theorys about democratic voter fraud and discourage people of color from voting according to the indictment. Just days before the election, they brought an ad to promote a post on one of their accounts called a olympicty visit that read choose peace and vote for jill stein. Trust me, its not a wasted vote. The russians pulled it off using stolen identities to open bank accounts, send money through paypal and routed web traffic through the u. S. To conceal russian origins. When it was over, they took steps to erase their digital trail, one defendant writing in an email to a Family Member, we had a slight crisis here at work. The fbi busted our activity. Not a joke. So i got preoccupied with covering tracks together with the colleagues. Further wrote, i created all these pictures and posts. The americans believed it was written by their people. Now, the indictment today only concerns russian information operations. It does not even touch on the criminal theft of documents from the dnc or the Clinton Campaign or the question of potential collusion with the Trump Campaign which almost certainly means there are more shoes left to drop. The president of course, already declared victory today tweeting russia started their antiu. S. Campaign in 2014 long of i announced i would run for president. The results of the election were not impacted. The Trump Campaign did nothing wrong, no collusion. Mueller makes no determination whether the russian efforts affected the election outcome. He leaves no doubt they put a large thumb on the scale. Matt miller from the justice department, msnbc justice and security analyst, Betsy Woodruff a little reporter with the daily beast. Matt, this indictment is a remarkable document. Whats your reaction . This indictment lays out a much more farsweeping conspiracy to violate u. S. Election laws than we really knew. We knew about a lot of social media activity on twitter, facebook. We had no idea that russians sent operatives over to the United States to gather intelligence, that they were in addition to organizing rallies on ground they were paying people to attend rallies. This is a well financed at one point over 1 Million Dollar a month operation. Well financed, well researched, well executed conspiracy to violate election laws. It is own one piece of the puzzle. As point out, this had nothing to do with the hacks of documents at the dnc or john podesta. Many election observers will have more of a dramatic impact. People are looking at the screen at the president of the United States down in florida who we are expecting some comments from. Well listen in. Got here over to the hospital in less than 21 minutes. She had no chance. Between the First Responders your people who got her, you know who im talking about, they got her there, scott. What a job youve done. The doctors did a great job over at the hospital. The combination is incredible. I hope youre getting credit. Believe me, you deserve it. Job youve done is unparalleled. Mr. President , these are the leaders who they led swat teens, staging areas. The president down in florida visiting with the sheriff of broud county, an individual we spoke with last night. He visit aid hospital just before then. Matt and betsy, are you still there . Were sort of curious that the president who looked like he didnt want to visit with vips of the mass murder that happened down there and decided to go there. Whether hes going to be addressing any of this, were going to keep an eye on that. But the president did have to address this indictment earlier today in a tweet. What was striking to me is how this essentially has him pinned because he has been calling this a hoax even things like the facebook ads from almost the beginning. Right. And whats clear from muellers indictment, thats not the case. At one point trump suggested maybe russia interfered or maybe it was some 400pound guy in his mops basement. This makes it Crystal Clear that it was russia, that it wasnt ran dop tros in the United States. One thing that really popped out at me from the this indictment sort of buried towards the back is the fact that not only did russian operatives interact with americans in some cases pay americans to do specific tasks, americans actually paid russian operatives not with evidence they knew they were paying russians for ad space on some of the social media pages they developed. Thats a powerful indicator of just how influential these social media presences they had were. The fact ha americans would see these pangs and say it makes sense tones actually pay to get space on the plat fors that they have develop. Thats extraordinary. And matt, it confirms the basically contours of we have to say what Hillary Clinton was seeing at the time. I mean, the entire campaign you go back and look at debate footage. It is so striking. She is saying Vladimir Putin is actively trying to get you elected. He says no, puppet. Youre the puppet. Today you have the federal government pulling its full weight behind a series of claims they say they can back up in court that spell out exactly that. Hillary clinton warned us at the time, it was obvious to a lot of people watching the federal government sort of warned us at the time, only one voice of the federal government, the Republican Party and congress was unwilling to join in the opposition. You had the then candidate, now president of the United States out there publicly not just benefitting from the russian operation. We have to remember, this is a crucial point, actively encouraging it, encouraging it in july when he encouraged them to hack Hillary Clintons emails and where he was talking about the wiki leak hacks constantly. This is a president who called it a hoax after the election and continues to call this investigation a witch hunt. Hae is been actively promoting the russian interference in the election for now over a year and a half. So for him to, the statement he made today was a bit of a climbdown where he has to admit there was some intervention but he continues to make claims that arent back up by facts. His claim he was vindicated today. Theres nothing in this indictment that vindicates him, nothing that rosenstein said that vindicates him. What we saw today was the first step of a charge. There could be multiple actors charged in the months to come. Well talk about that as time goes on. Matt miller and Betsy Woodruff, thank you for hanging with me there. Appreciate it. Juliaoff if i a staff writer and former fbi double agent who il filtrated russian interrogation. Naveed, the scope of this, just as an interrogation professional, you have to take a step back and kind of be impressed. Just the sheer scope confident trade craft here. Absolutely. You know what, chris, what jumped out at me was the thing that wasnt mentioned. That was specifically one of the last things obama did in december of 2016 was throw out essentially the totality of the russian interference intelligence here in the United States. He threw out 35 Russian Diplomats which is in fact what flynn was talking to kislyak. When trump comes out and says it clears him, that dotted line is still a dotted line, not connected, the bona fide russian interrogation offic investigation officers and people operating under false cover, that is clearly part of this. We know russia was involved. When had he say intelligence collection, that means spying. There were people here recruiting spies gathering intelligence. Thats an important point. I picture these folks, you know, driving around nevada, getting gas, a rental car. Having political conversations in diners like american political reporters do. Are they watching cable news . But you know, the scope of this, its something you and i have spoken about on the air. And. Other venues in which you said whats remarkable to you about the operation it showed sophistication of grasp of american politics you had not seen from Russian Operations in washington before. What is your take away from reading the indictment . It reminds me a lot of the indictment that was issued when the illegals were caught in 2010. I dont know if you remember that, anna chapman and a bunch of other spies. It got deep in the weeds of their operations. It was at that point, it was going to think tank events and reading newspapers and radioing back to moscow. But that was 2007, 2008. The internet wasnt quite as advanced. It is interesting they felt this time they still had to get on the ground whether he a lot of stuff was readily available online. They could done it from the comfort r of foggy st. Petersburg. Theres a gran knewlarity involved. They paid people to dress as hillary behind barpz defendants and coconspirators asked one u. S. Person to build a cage on a truck and another to wear a costume portraying clinton in a prison costume. They paid the individuals to complete the request. That the meme, hillary for prison was not just the russians that came up with it. They played a role in furthering what became extremely extremely common meme in the american electorate. Yeah, look, and to what julia is saying, im very skeptical, having sat down with russian Intelligence Officers, my sense is that russia understands u. S. Customs and politics as an outsider. It tends to be that it feels like there were more than just the russians involved. There had to have been americans directinging whether advising them how to do this. This is far too targeted for someone in russia to figure out the specs. I go back to the intelligence collection. That is code for spying. To me that means they were recruiting the other part was they didnt go into detail, u. S. Persons to do part of their bidding. The indictment goes into that about the americans they contacted. The americans they paid. The other thing i think we need to not overlook in this indictment is the extent to wit russians saw the to the help Bernie Sanders and jill stein and to suppress the vote. So it wasnt just about hillary versus trump. It was also about you know, anybody but hillary or stay home and dont vote. That is a great point. This was a if there was a target of it, it was an antihillary operation they were running. That could be jill stein, Bernie Sanders, donald trump, that could be suppressing voters of color which was a clear objective. Julia . The other thing i wanted to say, theres no chance in hell essentially that any of these 13 russians are going to see justice in the u. S. The u. S. And russia dont have an extradition treaty. Theres no way were going to see these people here, trais face trial here. This is a shot across the bow to the trump administration. No collusion, no collusion. We keep hearing this from the white house. And saying, all of this is a witch hunt, this is a democratic delusion. And here trump is sending this is not a message to the russians. This is a message to the president and his base saying no collusion . How about all this. Well, and we should say this. We dont know what is out after this. Well talk about this more most of the show today. But theres a bunch of things about the hacking that we still dont know. But one thing, that vide from a Counter Intelligence standpoint, Robert Mueller seems to know a lot. At one point, he quotes an email that one of these alleged coconspirators sent to the family, we read it in the introbeing like we got busted by the fbi. Im covering my tracks and you read that an think, wow, theyve got eyes on a lot here. Sources and methods. I come back the starting date of 204 is so interesting to me. Someone has covered carter page in this, the fact that page was involved in this 2015 case and he met with russian svr officers in 2013 in new york. Theres a nexus to all these operations, to the 356 russian Intelligence Officers obama threw out. Theres going fob more that will drop. Well see not the dotted line but a solid line that points squarely back to russia. Final point to you, julia. One thing not in the indictment is the Vladimir Putin or the russian government. This one individual evgeny who runs a catering business and what do you knowing all you do about russia and reporting there, what is that relationship look like . Its a very, very close relationship in russia. Hes known as putins chef very much in keeping with how the russians do things. Theres probably not going to be any of putins fingerprints on this, right . Probably what it looked like was putin essentially saying who will rid me of this you know troublesome hillary. And everybody else kind of gets what ha means. And swingsing into action. But its all trusted entities. And plausible deniability has always been a crucial, crucial part of this. We saw this in crimea in 2014 and further on. There is always a bit of distance between putin and execut executors. I remember covering the soldiers without flags on their uniforms, one of the creepiest things ive seen. Great to have you. One of the more notable things about the announcement today of muellers indictment of russian individuals and companies accused of interfering in the 2016 president ial election was the theater and craft around the announcement. With me to read between the lines is frank feg lew zi, former assistant director of Counter Intelligence to the fbi and harry lipman. Harry, ill begin with you with Rod Rosenstein. Previous indictments did not have rosenstein taking questions. They did not have him owning the work product of mueller. Todays did. Whats the significance of that . Its a big vindication for Rod Rosenstein. Hes been maybe a sharper whipping boy for trump and the white house and trump partisans even than mueller. This is he gets a chance now to play the traditional role that a Deputy Attorney general plays, the embodiment of truth, justice and the american way. Against what was after all, an attack on u. S. Soil by a hostile power. So i dont think its accidental that he chose to do the press conference. But its perfectly deserved. Its a deserved victory lap. And i think part of what it tries to signal, its a big momentum changer in general, makes it much harder to shop the witch hunt charges and the like. But its big not only because of the crimes but nature of them and puts it on the sort of axis of National Security and above partisanship. Its going to be very hard for Congressional Republicans or anyone really to poopoo this. So rosenstein wears the mantle of this Important Development and justifiably. And frachk, having worked with mueller, he is obviously a very able and experienced institutional player in washington. Hes making these decisions. He reads the newspaper and knows the landscape. Where do you think hes come with this announcement at this moment . Yeah, hes laid the groundwork here to show the American Public that weve all been targeted. This is not a hoax. A foreign power has tried to pledwith our democracy and our election. Hes going to work his way closer and closer toward this collusion and conspiracy theory. I think the next, you know, the next step well see here, this was the social media part of the russian meddling. Lets not forget theres still a hacking part to the russian meddling. I believe they know by name who the Russian Hackers were and i believe well see the hackers of the dnc, the hillary emails actually named in indictments, as well. And then youll see him move on after the American Public has had a chance to process this Foreign Government med ding, youll see him move onto the possibility of americans conspirators. So you think the sequencing is important to the extent there is a case about collusion, we dont know if hes found it. But this is a predicate he needs to lay down first . Exactly. So you have underlying crimes committed. You have Foreign Government involvement thats laid out and allege. Then you need to show where you can insert the americans and Campaign Officials if theyre there. That would be the way to go here. Interesting, the level of detail in this indictment, he didnt need all of that. But i believe he inserted it to show everyone and send a message, weve wrapped this up. This is a russian intel operation. It reads like a tom clancy novel. Who is not a happy camper today, thats putin. He gets very emotional when his russian intelligence operations are wrapped up as he did when the bureau wrap up the ten russian illegals several years ago. Hes embarrassed. And harry, one of the institutional factors is we know that rosenstein briefed the president today. I saw a quote somewhere, some reporter was told the focus was doing it in a way the president wouldnt want to break glass. They understand what theyre handling here where the person who is charged with protecting the country who you would think would be like good job, thank you, is the one that you have to sort of step lightly around. Right. I mean thank you very much since ive been derelict for a year. You would think but at least the initial indications are to the contrary. You have a tweet coming out of the box from him thats not only wrong but is so sort of petty and personal and so misses the Important Note that as frachk is talking about, of the gravity of the sort of interNational Security dimension of this. And i want to just agree with frank here. These people as julia said last segment, we will never expect to see them before an american court. But they set the stage for a broader story and the development of this evidence today in some ways wag more difficult and challenging for a prosecutor than it will be to develop stories if there are any of american collusion where youll after all have witnesses, people at home, and the like. This is the foreign part of the tail that will a domestic addendum. Frank, it went through my head that email that one of the operators sent back to a Family Member when they got busted, the sort of fact of the names used and the ways therapy moving money around and making payments. Were you as someone who worked in Counter Intelligence, whats your thought as you read the details, what they seemed to have had eyes on . So the first thing that comes to mind when i read that is, that looks an awful like an intercept. Thats an electronic intercept. What does that mean . It means for quite some time, the fbi, the Intelligence Community, all the threeletter agencies have had their eyes on this. Theyve wrapped this up. This is an impressive bit of intelligence. This isnt coming just from muellers team i assure you. This is the Counter Intelligence division of the fbi and the entire interrogatilligence comm coming together. They agreed to declassify the intel and put it in the indictment. These are the people the whipping boys for trump. Weve had a failure over the last year of the people you would think would be addressing this, right . The president , Congressional Republicans. And the people who come in. The cavalry here are the very ones that trump has been disparaging. Mueller and the intelligence agencies. Frank and harry lipman, thanks for joining us. What we can green from the president s reaction to the to the indictments next. Probiotics, and fiber, it could be wearing on you. Tell your doctor what youve tried and how long youve been at it. Linzess works differently from laxatives. Linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. It can help relieve your belly pain and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements that are easier to pass. Do not give linzess to children less than six, and it should not be given to children six to less than eighteen. It may harm them. Dont take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. Get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. The most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. If its severe stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. Other side effects include gas, stomacharea pain, and swelling. Ask your doctor if 90 days of linzess may be right for you. Offf. Do you feel vindicate the in the mueller investigation. Mr. President , will you punish russia. Will you punish russia . Mr. President. Do you think the russia probe is a hoax . Will you put sanctions on russia . Nothing on russia, mr. President . Was it a hoax, mr. President . Join us for tea . Moments after Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein announced charges against foreign agents for attacking our electoral process, the president was in no mood departing for florida. Instead he used twitter to incorrectly intimate he had been cleared of any wrongdoing. Russia starred in 2014 long before i announced i would run for president. The results were not impacted. The campaign did nothing wrong, no collusion. With me is congressman jerry nadler, a Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee your reaction to the news today. My reaction to the news is this is absolute proof of what we knew all along and what the president has denied, namely that we were attacked. This is a very serious attack against the United States by a hostile foreign power, an attack against our election process. Our entire governing process. That we know that the attack is continuing. And that our intelligence agencies tell us that its going to certainly continue through the next election. And the president and the republicans in the house for that matter refuse, refuse to do anything about protecting us from an attack. Imagine if fdr are denied that the japanese attacked us at pearl harbor and didnt react. Thats the equivalent. Its a bit of a different thing. They didnt kill anyone. Theyre destroying our country. Do you really think its on par . Not in the amount of violence but in the seriousness, it is very much on par. This country exists to have a democratic system with a small d. Thats what the countrys all about. This is an attempt to destroy that. And the president s core, the president ial oath is to preserve, protect and defend the constitution. This president is refusing to do that. You heard people ask questions about sanctions, preet bharara, who is the u. S. Attorney for the Southern District till he was fired by the president along with every other serving u. S. Attorney says how about some sanctions now, mr. President . They were passed over his jokz and there has been nothing from them. And there was no waiver. No waiver authority. The president as far as i can tell is breaking the law by not imposing sanctions. Fact is we should impose very heavy sanctions and make sure that the russians are hurt in some very serious economic way so they dont keep doing this. This is not an unserious matter. This is not titfortat. You dont expel a few diplomats. They tried to destroy our system. So you think that the deterrence has been insufficient so far. Very much insufficient. What would it look like for it to be sufficient . I dont know. Im not an expert in cyber security. Maybe things should happen in russia. You think so . Do you worry about excalation . Yes, i do. But they have to be shown this is not priceless. This is not without a price. There has to be a heavy price. Someone attempts to destroy our form of government. There has to be a price sufficient to make sure they stop. They havent stopped. You keep seeing this claim over and over. Mike pence said the other day the Intelligence Community said the fists had no effect on the election outcome which is flatly false. Today the president , you get this talking point. Theres no determination about its impact and Rod Rosenstein in a lawyerly fashion says the indictment does not say that it. The fact is, that they had millions and millions of dollars of ads on behalf of trump or against hillary, not accounted for in the american political system. They had all these social media things. They had all this attempt to depress the black vote, to get people to waste their votes on jill stein, et cetera. It had an affect. How much no one knows. What it turned the election is unknowable but all we know is that they spent millions of dollars on this. They did it. They ran a campaign. It had to have had some effect. Whether it was enough to turn election is an unknowable question. Finally, is rosenstein safer today having come out today and done this or in more peril . I would hope is he safer. I issued a statement saying if the president now interfered with the investigation either by firing mueller or firing rosenstein, it would have to be viewed as a conscious decision to aid the russian attack on american democracy. Yeah, do you feel like theres an important kind of public democratic aspect to this indictment today which is previous guests were saying probably will never come to criminal fruition but telling american citizens what happened. This is beginning to tell citizens what happened. As someone pointed out earlier, it doesnt deal with the crime of hacking into the dnc and john podesta and the use that was made. It doesnt deal with the we know there was collusion in the campaign whether the president was involved we dont know yet. It doesnt deal with any of that. Those are clearly crimes. It does point out that it says there are coconspirators in the u. S. Known and unknown to the grand jury. Thats a broad hint there will be additional indictments of americans for this. Well see where it goes. Do you think, are you confident that mueller will find out what there is to know . Im confident if he is not interfered with, he will find out. Hell get to the bottom of it. Hell get to the bottom of a lot of it. I dont know that you can find out everything. I ask because i have reimmersing myself in watergate. Whats fascinating is how much of it in some ways was dumb luck that nixon ends up getting caught. Partly because he tapes himself. If he hadnt taped himself. In the absence of a lot of different things, you can imagine him skating away. How confident are you we will end up knowing what happened . Im not totally confident we will end up knowing what happened. Im confident that mueller and rosenstein seem to be doing Everything Possible to find out what can be found out. There are a lot of people who could be in criminal jeopardy and who may presumably talk. Well see. But what we have already found out is more than sufficient to know what we have to do to protect ourselves and what the House Republicans and the president s are refusing to do. In terms of a concerted effort both to make russia pay some price for this and in securing america. We know, for example, that the democratic minorities on a couple of congressional committees oversight investigations came out last week with a report saying just to protect our Voting Machines and registration systems, never mind waging a separate campaign will cost about half a billion dollars in a onetime investment. The center for American Progress said it would cost about a billion dollars and 10 million which is tiny. 10 million a year. Even a billion dollars in the kind of budget we have to protect our democratic system is rather tiny. We should do that, clearly. Jerry nadler, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Russian interference in the election worked so well because the president ial campaign the russians, theyve done it for a long time across europe. Why now. I think this answer is very simple and is what no one is really saying in this room, which is part of the reason active measures have worked in this u. S. Election is because the commander in chief has used russian active measures at time against his upons. He claimed that the election could be rigged. That was the number one theme pushed by rt sputnik news outlegs all the way up till the election. Candidate trumps cries of voter fraud, the campaigns bragging about voter suppression, the ongoing theme of hillary in prison lock her up all mirrored todays indictment. Phillip rains is a former advisor to Hillary Clinton and advising her during the xcampai. Having been part of an inner circle that was sounding the alarm about this, what is your reaction reading the indictment today . I have much the same reaction as you did. A year ago, i would ask myself, are we ever going to know the whole story . And i thought we wouldnt because i thought there were too many players eeb someone like Vladimir Putin might not know everything. Today its easier to see an end here where we know not everything but a lot. I think today there was good news and bad news. The good news is that bob mueller has assembled the equivalent of the 1927 yankees in terms of investigators. What he came up with is remarkable. And bear in mind, he came up with this about trained intelligence professionals who know how to avoid and reluctant he didnt speak to. Imagine what happens when is he starts to write up and really get into what donald trump and his knitwits do. These guys hate each other. They cant help but make things worse. Carter page, all of them say dumber and dumber things. Thats the good news. Bad news is were having the same conversation over and over and over again. To congressman nadlers point, i do think this is the equivalent of pearl harbor. Not the loss of life but imagine if in the days and weeks and a year after pearl harbor, 40 of america including 80 of the Minority Party didnt believe it happened. Didnt believe we lost 3,000 souls, didnt believe that we lost half of our pacific fleet. How would fdr possibly have pursued our enemies . Imagine if he had a congress that denied him a war resolution. Thats where we are now. As long as we remain there, as long as we have a president who is so small, who refuses to give an inch on the very fundamental question of whether theres an adversary that is interfering with our democracy, we have a big problem. I want to follow up on that analogy. Its provocative. The other side of the analogy is that it sounds like you are calling for war. What it sounds like you are saying if its equivalent in some ways, right . The concern a lot of people have about the state of the world right now and particularly u. S. russia reeses it twofold. One is this part, the openness we have to and the vulnerability we have and the fact we cant trust the president with our interests. The other is were sitting across from a Nuclear Power in a dangerous world and a loop of mutual escalation can be extremely dangerous for the world. I dont think we should go to actual kinetic war and send aircraft carriers but what russia did in 2016, what they are doing now, as time goes on is the equivalent of a cyber pearl harbor. I think thats what war is going to look like more and more. Now, we dont have to counter that with conventional weapons. We can do so with cyber frankly with things you and i have no idea about. But it starts with a president who doesnt deny its existence. It starts with a president who doesnt convince 40 of the country that it didnt happen. And it starts with a president saying i will not tolerate this. And what the problem is is that he is so afraid of his illegitimacy which i dont blame him because every time we hear one of these things it, does question whether hes a legitimate president. He definitely deserves more than bun asterisk and the next president should probably be named 45, not 46. But it really, he can say what they did and what they tried is inexcusable. But look, im confident i won on the merits. He does that. I won because she was bad. I won because im great. Blah, blah, blah. And he can say theres nothing to this investigation. I am comfortable with that. He does not have to go for this constant trifecta of nothing happened. Therefore, i won on my own. Therefore, theres no investigation. Let me. Hes got too much of the country believing they cannot even give in to it. Let me ask you a question will legitimacy. You just mentioned it. Theres a phrase we hear about free and fair elections, a phrase that america uses talking about other countries. We call on them to hold free and fair elections. Those words have different meanings. Obviously the 2016 election was a free election. There was not a authoritarian force. Was it free and fair in 2016. The fact that youre asking the question and that reasonable people id like to think im reasonable, i dont think it was at this point. And some people will say it is. But the fact that its even a debate whether an american president ial election was free and fair is a real problem. We are supposed to be the beacon in the world for free and fair elections. This is not the poster child of how to conduct an election. And unfortunately, donald trump is not going to take this seriously until it happens to him. The russians dont care about Hillary Clinton anymore. They dont abocare about anyoneo threaten them in 2016. They want to disrupt the people in power. The people in power are the republicans. The republicans are not going to wake up to this until they are in the wrong end of it. Thats sad for all of us. Let me play one more thing for you while i have you here. This clip from the debate. Its something i returned to over and over again. Its Hillary Clinton, secretary clinton and donald trump going back and forth about russia. Take a listen. From everything i see has no respect for this person. Well, thats because he would rather have a puppet as president into no puppet. Of the United States its pretty clear. Youre the puppet. Its clear you wont admit. Youre the puppet. The russians have engaged in Cyber Attacks against the United States of america that you encouraged, espionage against our people, that you are willing to spout the putin line, sign up for his wish list, break up nato, do whatever he wants to do. And that you continue to get help from him because he has a very clear favorite in this race. Whats your reaction hearing that again. There was only one president on stage and it was not donald trump. I mean, when he said not a puppet, he might as well as be saying i am a puppet. No collusion, i colluded. Vladimir putin, give the guy credit. He didnt pick donald trump because he thought he would be great for america because he really wanted obamacare repealed or he really wanted tax cuts. He wanted someone that was going to do the most harm to his adversary. Boy did he pick the right horse. Thank you for your time tonight. Still ahead, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist james risen and the question he poses, is donald trump a traitor. Plus tonights thing 1 thing 2 is a good one. Next. At planters, we put fresh roasted flavor into every can, which has its drawbacks. Guys, know anything about this missing inventory . Wasnt me the cheeks dont lie, chet. Irresistibly planters. Thing 1 tonight, the scandal surrounding administrator Scott Pruitts penchant for Luxury Travel using government public funds continues to grow tonight as more receipts come in. Bloomberg reports today pruett has spent more than 107,000 on flights during just his First Six Months leading the epa. That seems like a lot to me including 14,000 spent on charter flights in his home state of oklahoma july 27th. 14,000 on one day seems like a lot. The latest disclosures come on the heels of reports pruett has been routinely flying first class such as a 1600 first class seat to fly all the way from washington, d. C. To new york and a round trip flight to italy that cost ,000 in the stupendously opulent Business Class cabin on Emirates Airline. Earlier this week he justified the by citing passengers in coach who werent nice to him. There have been instances unfortunately during my time as administrator as i have flown and spent time of interaction thats not been the best. Interaction that has not been the best. Today we learned what one passenger allegedly said to him. Thats thing 2 in 60 seconds. Ly. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. The name to remember. Scott pruitt reportedly enjoyed the luxurious Business Class cabin on Emirates Airline as he threw home from italy in june. A ticket paid for by the epa. That is not normal, not usually what the epa administrator does advertised in the ca cabinstized by jennifer aniston. Pruett says he needs first class because of unpleasant interactions with passengers and the epa Security Office says they advised it telling politico we felt based on the recommendation of the team leader he would be better suited away from close individuals approaching him and being rude, using profanities and potential for altercations. What might be an example of that . An individual who approached pruett yelling scott pruitt, youre iffin up the environment. But apparently pruett can avoid confrontations with those outraged by his policies if hes just surrounded by rich people. Or you know, in a private sleeping pod. It was such a nightmare. I was on a plane and it was nothing like this. Im sorry to hear that. Thank you so much. N meaning to talk to you, uh oh. Well, you know, youre getting older. Um, you might be experiencing some, ah, sensations. Ah, it happened to your dad. Uh with. Oh, look the tow trucks here cant wait to be rescued . Esurance roadside assistance lets you know when help will arrive. Thats insurance for the modern world. Esurance. An allstate company. Click or call. You have any questions, uh. Im good. Awesome. Need a change of scenery . Kayak searches hundreds of travel and hotel sites so you can be confident youre getting the Perfect Hotel at the best price. Soak it in. Kayak. Search one and done. Of being there for my sons winning shot. That was it for me. Thats why im quitting with nicorette. Only nicorette mini has a patented fast dissolving formula. It starts to relieve sudden cravings fast. Every great why needs a great how. In a new piece out today, politzer prize winner pointing out a stark truth about the man occupying the oval office. Quote, one year after Trump Took Office it is still unclear whether the president of the United States is an agent of foreign power. Real pleasure to have you here. You have been covering intelligence for literally decades. Youve cowritten a book with someone who worked at the cia specifically about the kgb. Taking that because you write about this in the piece, just start there with your knowledge how the kgb and successor agencies operated and how that looks, the indictment today and what we know about russian interference with that history in context. Sure. I think this the russian interference in the 2016 election fits perfectly into the past history of the way the kgb has operated over the years. They are experts at covert action programs that are designed to inject disinformation into foreign countries, and one of the cold war cases that i talk about in the piece is called operation infection in the early 1980s where the kgb went to Great Lengths through cutouts and intermediaries and using, you know, unwitting news organizations to spread the rumor and the false story that the United States was behind the hiv aids virus and that had an effect in the third world for a long time. It was kind of the precursor to fake news. Yeah, the documentation of that in the piece and then it led me down a rabbit hole looking at doctors who were paid off and letters written into news publications and publications running stories on the connections across the world, all of it a kgb operation to spread this damaging misinformation. The interesting things, there were east german scientists involved in spreading this rumor at a time when Vladimir Putin was a kgb officer in east germany and so its very likely he knew about operation infection, and he then later, as you know, became director of the fsb in 1998 even before he became president of russia. So he has a long tradition steeped into the history of covert action. When you read the indictment, what are your take aways given the reporting youve done for the years . One of the things that is not i think ive kind of focused on what was not said in the indictment, which was how did mueller get this information . Right. And to me, that was the most interesting thing because up until now, ive been concerned about whether or not mueller will have the full cooperation of the u. S. Intelligence community to gather information inside russia. Which hell need for proving certain parts of his case and that to me show that he does have information coming out of russia in a way thats pretty impressive and more than i really anticipated, and it raises to me, its an interesting question. Which agencies are cooperating with mueller despite trumps attempts to politicize this. It was talked about at the top of the show, one of the reads from the documented was the collaboration that mueller is getting and that kind of collaboration is not a given, even when you dont have the incredibly dysfunctional situation. Having reported on the unbelievably fierce rivalries and sometimes out right contempt between these various entities. Right. This is somewhat unusual. Yeah, especially now its very fraught because youve got mike pompeo who is the cia director close to trump and seen as a trump loyalest. There is a lot of questions how aggressively is the Intelligence Community going to be in supporting mueller and i thought that was the post interesting part of this is it looks like hes getting information out of russia. Do you think, take me through your thinking about the underlying operation here and when you became convinced of its size and scope. Well, you know, i think in the piece i wrote which came out right before this indictment, i wanted to step back and look and i was kind of stunned by how much information is already available to show that pretty conclue zisively that the russi were behind the intervention in the 2016 election and even before the indictment today, i thought one of the most remarkable stories that came out recently that has gotten very little attention in the United States was published in the dutch press a few weeks ago about how dutch intelligence had realtime eyes, realtime access to what the Russian Hackers were doing and passing that onto the nsa in realtime. And the story, which has been mentioned in the United States but hasnt gotten much attention shows that they actually took control of the security cameras inside the russian offices where they were doing the hack and able to match faces of the people in the hack in that room where they were doing the hack against russian Intelligence Officers. So thats the kind of level of detail that we now believe the United States has because of liaison with european intelligence and other things and one of the other stories that kale ocame out recently is case in moscow where a hacker who had been arrested has come out and said he was involved in the hack of the dnc on behalf of the russian intelligence, and he named an fsb officer who separately has been arrested for spying for the United States by the russians. So the evidence is just piling up almost on a daily basis that shows that russia was behind the intervention in the election. Let me ask about the headline in the sort of piece, the question you posed, is donald trump a traitor . People dismiss it because it seems too much to contemplate. Why is that to you the core question . Thats what all this is saying, was donald trump elected with the help of russia . Did he cooperate with a Foreign Government to take control of the United States government . That to me is almost a textbook definition of treason and if he did that, if collusion is proven then i think almost by definition hes a traitor, and i think everyone is afraid of the consequences of using that word because its so fraught. That is essentially what it is. If you collude with an adversary of the United States to take over the government of the United States, youre a traitor. What do you think, you use the word collude and collusion is the term the president constantly says no collusion, which is, you know, that and 3 gets you on the subway. What do you think collusion would look like were it to be found . Are you looking for as someone whose emersed in this world . Well, thats the what im trying to do, this first piece i only looked at the whether the russians were involved in the meddling. The next piece im doing is about did trump collude . And i think thats to me, the question we now the evidence we have on collusion is not as strong as the evidence on russian meddling and so the way i think about it now is we have very strong evidence on russian meddling, pretty strong evidence of trumps attempts at obstruction of justice and less clon collusive evidence of trumps collusion with moscow. Thats the opening. Thats kind of the hole in the donut at this point and it strikes me that if, you know, there are plenty of contacts. There is lots of evidence. And its you know, it looks like thats kind of the place that muellers investigation is beginning to converge on. That is all in for the hour. The Rachel Maddow show starts now. Good evening, chris. Thanks, my friend. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. So i think the biggest thing that we learned today is that this guy has quite a lot of rabbits stuffed into that hat. Its always a surprise with the special counsel. On day one, not quite a surprise when the special counsel Robert Mueller turned in his first multi count felony indictment against paul manafort. He had to pick a guy in the Trump Campaign orbit that